Guild Wars 2

I agree that a majority of builds in PvE are functional for the majority of content a person faces. However, there are champions and whatnot that either hit like a truck or have way too many hitpoints to dps down before they squish you if you’re running a glass-cannon build (such as all zerker).

It’s that situation that I often structure my builds around… if the trash mobs and veterans don’t matter, then it’s the things that do matter that I consider when trying new builds.

Because of all that, yes I do consider toughness. Yes, I like using it in many situations, especially paired with healing power. Many of my builds have toughness as a primary or near-primary stat.

For my play style I don’t care how long it takes me to kill something. What matters to me is that when the dust settles I’m the one victorious. And, for the situations when that really counts, glass cannon builds don’t work (at least for me).

~EW

P.S. I’ll also admit that I get a bit of schadenfreude when I see other players going down around me during events and world bosses, yet I’m still at 3/4 hp or higher.

P.P.S If you think about it, having some players with higher toughness on the field who are ‘aggro magnets’ and can take hits means that the glass cannons on the field stay up and killing stuff for longer…. definitely a win-win all around, I think.

Exclusive trinity stunts creative problem solving and diverse group dynamics.

If people gravitate towards the trinity, that’s their choice… and having choice is always a good thing.

~EW

The world isn’t too small, you’re just too large.

Solution: play Asura. Problem solving is their baileywick; even their stature contributes to fixing the world.

~EW

Well, since this thread is being somewhat necro’d…

0) All the stuff I said earlier in the thread

1) I’d like to see the dynamic level adjustment tweaked a little bit, so I’m not killing mobs in 2-3 blows in the noob maps. When playing low lvl toons, it can be really hard to tag mobs for events when lvl 80’s are hanging out wiping out everything as it spawns.

2) I’d like to be able to switch between two builds (including gear) with the click of a button… saves me some time reallocating traits and inventory space carrying an extra set of gear.

3) I’d like dungeons tweaked so that they can all ‘potentially’ be finished solo. By that I don’t mean make them easier, but instead alter the ones which have mechanics requiring 2 or more people working together to complete so they only need one person.

~EW

D3 is a gear-grind no matter which way you slice it.

GW2 is a gear-grind only if you choose to make it one.

If you haven’t played D3 yet, then you might get more mileage out of it than GW2 before the Skinner Box starts becoming so apparent… also there’s less people to get upset at if that’s indeed an issue for you.

Both games can become repetitive/grindy, but I think GW2 has more ways to break up monotony if you’re willing to explore options outside your comfort zone.

~EW

My personal policy is I never preorder any digital media… it doesn’t matter how much I love the company that makes it, or enjoy the IP… and it doesn’t matter how awesome of a preorder bonus I miss out on.

Until the code is finished, too much can go wrong with what the final product will actually be… For many people HoT is a very recent example of this too common occurrence in game development.

To finish answering your question, I really enjoy HoT and I’m definitely willing to look at the next expansion and consider purchasing it once it’s finished.

~EW

A similar situation was brought up in another thread a couple weeks ago, and the conclusion that people seemed to come to there was hanging out afk for geodes is an exploit. Admittedly no dev stepped in to say something either way….

I don’t yet see the difference between that previous thread’s version of afk exploitation and what’s been brought up in this thread other than the lewt…. o.O

~EW

edit: and personally I’d love to know if that means it’s not an exploit if I afk while waiting for Pristine Spore Samples to respawn… please, oh please let that be the case….

Xillllix.3485:

If the expansion was a full-bodied 50$ worth of content expansion there wouldn’t be a content drought in the first place…

That is completely untrue. No MMO company has ever been able to produce content as fast or faster than the majority of people can consume it.

Whether you feel that you got $50 worth of content is a different consideration than if the amount of content that is released has any potential to cover the periods in time during which new content is being created.

~EW

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Well, its been almost 6 months now since HoT release. If there was a grace period for refunds, it’s undoubtedly past that now since anyone who bought a game 6 months ago would reasonably be assumed by support to have played it past any reasonable refund point.

If there is a grace period it would be based on when the individual bought HoT and not when it released; true… so, yeah, still probably not that helpful who bought it at launch.

Even if a grace period has lapsed, do we know of anyone who’s contacted CS and said, “I bought HoT because of the legendaries, and since they’re indefinitely postponed I’d like a refund on HoT?” Many of the pages of this thread are running together in my mind now, so I don’t recall.

~EW

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Does ANet even give refunds when you contact them (account closure or not) after a set period of time after purchase? I thought they didn’t. If not, all the people saying you can contact support to get a refund to address an unhappiness with this situation have got it wrong. The choices are leave the game or continue. Contacting support to get a refund is probably not an option and shouldn’t be being discussed if it isn’t as its a distraction from the main point of this discussion.

Fair point. But, usually there’s a grace period after when you first purchase something that you’re allowed a refund… what that grace period is I have no clue, nor if certain people wouldn’t qualify. I think that’s largely up to an individual’s discussion with CS, and is likely considered on a case-by-case basis. I think that grace period is common enough that it still makes it worth discussing as a possibly viable option for people to pursue… but you’re right in that it’s hard to tell if that’s option leads to a dead end for some or all.

One of my mother’s favorite sayings: If you don’t ask, then the answer is always no.

~EW

Obtena.7952:

Yes, I do refuse to change my stand because I realize for me, HoT still gives the value for money I spent on it, even if they don’t deliver every bit of content they promised. In fact, I think it delivers more than the $50 I spent on the expansion, so a few undelivered here or there doesn’t matter to me.

I completely agree. Value for money seems to be one of the core things being argued in this thread, and I’m satisfied with what I got, too.

Obtena.7952:

I get it matters to others; that’s not my problem here. The egregious part of this thread to me is the insistence on a refund, especially when full refund is being demanded. Also the instance by some that Anet did this because of malicious intent; that’s just stupid.

Also agreed.

~EW

Dinks.2478:

He doesn’t want a refund for core, he is saying that if getting a refund for HoT will ban his account then he deserves a refund for core. Which he does. Core and HoT are separate purchases, refunding one should not negate the other without also including a refund for the other.

And a refund for core is an unreasonable expectation if a player has spent any appreciable time playing it. Especially a full refund. You paid for time and access, you got time and access as far as core is concerned… both parties have lived up to their ends of that part of the license. HoT is treated separately as far as refunds are concerned, but it is still part of the larger agreement to access GW2… so you no longer agree to part of the license, the entire license is ended. It would be nice if it could be reverted back to non-HoT, but for the time being it’s not.

~EW

mrstealth.6701:

Your very first login happens after the purchase has been made. I bought the core game at a brick and mortar store and the expansion from an authorized third party , and those sellers are not going to accept the return of a product that has been opened or its key given.

This aspect of software EULAs has lead to them being invalidated in some cases. The fact that by the time the user is able to have the choice to agree or disagree, their ability to return the product is gone, serves to give some degree of favor to the consumer. Or as in many instances, the manufacturer/developer attempts to assert that merely opening the package, in which the EULA is sealed, qualifies as accepting the terms. In those cases, it can be quite difficult to establish that the agreement was ever valid due to its attempts at being enforced before it was even presented.

So taking this point with Ashen’s earlier point about returning to an original state when a contract is modified… then does this mean that the original state you’re returned to what you’re at the very first time you logged into the game when you have spent 0 time in the game? It’s an interesting idea, and maybe why there’s a justification that accounts get’s locked on refunds. If that’s the case… hmmm… something else to ponder. o.O

~EW

Ashen.2907:

1) there was no EULA present at the time of the establishment of the initial contract regarding GW2 between myself and Anet.

I’m sorry if I used the wrong term for this case, but your initial contract with GW2 was a license to use their product none-the-less. If you bought the physical GW2 box, what you bought was a box and an install disk… which is a sad thing to think about these days.

Ashen.2907:

2) in my state a modification to a contract requires that both parties be returned to their original state before the new contract can be considered valid. Anet has always retained possession of the game in its dealings with its consumers, but players do not retain possession of the money paid as part of the purchase contract. Such would need to be restored to them in order for the purchase contract to be modified or cancelled by Anet.

That may not be entirely the case when it comes to software ownership being retained by ANet. The players don’t retain possession of the money because they’re paying for access to the game so long as both parties are agreeing to that access… “forever” isn’t acceptable w/o fine print for “forever” to be canceled. And when it is canceled by either party, it remains that the user got their access while the license was in place. As far as the ToS/eula/whatever for HoT goes, the returning to the original state was likely covered in the fine print when we clicked ‘accept.’ If there is a legal case on anything any company does, then I support people pursuing it… I just think that if the law were so cut and dry, we wouldn’t need lawyers.

Ashen.2907:

Companies get away with situations like this not because they are in the right legally, but because the cost of litigation far outweighs what could be recovered by a consumer seeking redress.

Until it doesn’t outweigh it… and any company worth their salt isn’t going to play that gamble. Is ANet worth their salt? I look forward to finding out at some point.

Ashen.2907:

All of this aside, my primary concern here is not with getting a refund for myself, I dont qualify, but with reducing the negative impact of this situation on the next expansion.

That’s a completely fair stance to take. And I think that’s why it’s a good thing to have peeps discussing how much of a breach of license this is, and to what extent is the expectation for ANet to make amends (both legally and personally).

You make an interesting point about the ‘return to original state’ in contract modifications, and I am curious as to what the legal precedence is in regards to licenses.

~EW

Ashen.2907:

Work on the LW was announced prior to the cessation of production of new legendaries. Something that they were going to do anyway, as a basic part of their business plan, as established over a period of multiple years, is not an effort to compensate players for the company’s failure to deliver an advertised product.

Work on LW was planned ahead of time. ADDING the legendaries team to the LW team to bolster the LW content delivery was announced in the OP of this thread, and not before.

Ashen.2907:

Buy once, play forever. That license was sold (note sold, not leased or rented) as access to the game for as long as it exists. Depriving the purchaser of access to the core game as a punitive action for seeking a refund of a different purchase is where the flaw lies.

Buy once, and play until either party no longer agrees to some or all of the contract; then the contract is ended. That’s where the rub is. That is how eulas are often written in my experience.

~EW

Tachenon.5270:

If you’re arguing against those who hold that anet was wrong to choose to not deliver what they advertised, then you’re arguing in favor of anet not delivering what they advertise. You are, in essence, arguing in favor of anet not delivering what YOU pay for someday.

Why would you do that?

‘If you’re not an apple, then you’re a banana’ type of thinking discounts the existence of pears and oranges which are neither of the first two fruits. Imo such binary thinking always does more harm than good.

~EW

Ashen.2907:

Anet has made no offer to make up for it.

That’s sadly where we disagree… I see the LW production as the offer… I also recognize they just haven’t delivered on it yet.

Ashen.2907:

If you seek to get your money back for this product they take away anything youve ever bought from them without compensation. They take punitive action against players seeking a refund to discourage them from doing so.

I don’t disagree that their refund policy is controversial… but it’s a refund policy that’s been in place a long time, and that is your responsibility as the other party of the user license to understand before you sign. If you disagree with their refund policy, or anything else in their eula, you don’t click that you agree to it. That’s software user 101.

And you bought a user’s licence, not a physical product… and you used it…. the ‘take away everything you’ve ever bought from them’ argument against their refund policy is incredibly flawed.

~EW

Tachenon.5270:

If your grocer charges you for a dozen eggs but only gives you eleven, then says he’s indefinitely suspending the selling of eggs because it’s better than he should use his chickens for chicken noodle soup, then refuses to even talk to you about it, much less offer any sort of compensation for the egg you didn’t get, would you continue to shop at his store? Would you recommend his store to your friends? Would you warn your friends about this grocer’s business practices?

If your grocer advertises a special of bogo cans of green beans, then tells you they can’t deliver them because they don’t have them, they’ll try and find ways to make up for it: rain check for when it comes back, even if they don’t have an eta (‘indefinitely postpone’), corn as a substitute (increased LW production), or refund. If you no longer trust the store, and hate their business practices, then you’re gunna wind up leaving in any case and not shop there again no matter what they do… so a refund is certainly viable: you walk away with your money back, and they don’t get it.

~EW

cesmode.4257:

I have a question…

Since legendaries are no longer a priority for arenanet….

What is there to do in GW2 these days that keep you progressing your character? What drives you to continue to log in, farm events, etc etc. Is it masteries or something?

(serious legit question…havent played for more than 20 minutes in 1.5 yrs)

My interests currently lie in two main areas. The first is that I like to explore build diversity. I like to see what the options actually are in the class I’m currently obsessing over. This is also where all my gold goes to… my bank is mostly filled with various gear for my toons, lol. The second is most recent, and that is exploring dungeons solo. I find it a fun and interesting challenge.

I do enjoy the SW events and the world boss train… but not for the possible RNG loot (I try not to fall into the trap of the Skinner Box)… I just like being swept by the flow of the people and events.

~EW

mrstealth.6701:

They most likely realize what they have done is wrong on an ethical level. It still could wrong on a legal one as well, but Anet does have a sense of security behind fine print, technicalities, and legal shielding provided their own EULA (it does contain anti-litigation/binding arbitration clauses). It’s not a matter of “I feel wronged so a law must have been broken”, it’s a matter of there being laws specifically made to stop companies from doing this very thing. It’s just prohibitively difficult and costly to pursue, with cost of seeking compensation is exponentially higher than the compensation itself could ever be.

It’s sort of like when someone with diplomatic immunity commits a crime. They know it’s wrong. Everyone else knows it’s wrong. There’s just kitten all anyone can actually do about it because of the fine print.

If they’ve done something wrong ethically, then that’s a subjective call on the part of the consumer (flame bait, I know… but I have studied ethics in the past… feel free to disagree on this specific point… but I’m not going to argue it any further than that). Yes, I think there are enough mitigating factors to not automatically jump to the decision that this as an unethical decision. ‘I feel wronged’ isn’t the same thing as ’I’ve been wronged,’ and the laws are there to make that distinction.

To be clear for my part: I think a refocus on ‘sustainability’ and a bolster to the LW team is compensation enough for the ‘indefinite postponement’ of legendaries. I think focusing on such sustainability should be the direction the company takes instead of hopping from one idea to the next… which is the stated intention of MO now that he’s taken over for Collin… I like that change in the ship’s heading… if they do in fact deliver. For those that find that unacceptable, there are other avenues to pursue.

~EW

mrstealth.6701:

They don’t just get to decide what to offer as compensation and expect it to be accepted. That is absolutely not how consumer protections regarding advertising work. Precisely what is stated in your advertisement, marketing, or promotional material is precisely what they are obligated to deliver. If they want to offer some substitute that they feel is equal, it is entirely up to the customer’s discretion as to whether or not they choose to accept it.

They don’t have to expect it to be accepted, no, but they can (and should) make the offer. And, yeah, it’s always the choice of the consumer to refuse that offer. We’re not disagreeing on that point. The big problem is that all the people who believe a partial compensation is in order won’t ever agree on what that should be, so whatever is offered will be rejected by some.

mrstealth.6701:

If the details advertised are vague, then there is certainly room to argue that what was advertised was still, at least on technicality, provided. For example, the claim that HoT’s maps are “some of the biggest” in the game might not be true in terms of the actual content and how much of the map is actually used in playable content. But the verticality and open spaces do mean that the maps encompass a large area in terms of their measurable dimensions. Advertising that your game will deliver a “set of 16 legendary weapons” isn’t ambiguous or vague. Whether or not you choose to believe that marketing does not change the fact that it specifically states what is being sold.

And there’s always the fine print, and there’s the eula, and there’s other factors in the local laws like what the allowable wriggle room is between marketing and the delivered product, and on, and on… all which mean that if you feel a company has broken the law, then you consult a lawyer who is versed in that law. ‘I feel wronged therefore the law must have been broken’ is not an acceptable conclusion to jump to… it is a valid and worthwhile possibility to explore if you’re invested enough to do so.

If you do, I’m very interested in what you find out, no matter what way it goes.

~EW

Linken.6345:

Yea and if its only 2 episodes we cant techincaly say they werent suposed to release only 1 so you can say see more

You can always ask in the next AMA how the scope of the LW has changed with the absorption of the legendries team… or maybe even send MO an email, since he made that offer in the OP.

If you don’t get an answer, or don’t believe the answer you’re told, then it’s definitely reasonable to not accept that as a remuneration.

~EW

Linken.6345:

EphemeralWallaby.7643

Spira.4578:

So the compensation for the customers who bought the expansion and got the expac feature canceled, would essentially be the sustainable CORE content which everyone gets for free.

LWS3 will be gated behind HoT, and that content coming faster means more of it… that is certainly a form of compensation to those in HoT. For me, it wouldn’t matter if it is Core instead of HoT; ymmv.
~EW

Nope, to me that still counts as marketing and vague info. They’re telling you their intent… but nothing concrete… “set of 16” isn’t enough for me; those are just words for their intended finished product. Show me some concept art, and some lore, and some video of characters wielding them and showing off effects, and then there starts to be something substantive to base a purchasing decision on. I’ll believe the product exists when the code is done.

~EW

With these two quotes side to side how can you say that LWS3 will be more since they pump it out faster.

They havent even said how many episodes we will get witch we all know are marketing lies anyway.

They havent shown you any art or lore or video of a character running through it.

And likewise since the compensation hasn’t been delivered, I don’t accept it’s happened yet. I do think this is what’s been offered, but since it hasn’t been delivered, it’s all still hypothetical at this point.

Time will tell if that does wind up being the remuneration that we’re given… or something else… or nothing at all.

~EW

Spira.4578:

If your payment to ANET gets canceled, ANET won’t hesitate to ban your account. They won’t consider the “kitten happens” factor. They will simply act as a company and demand the user to act accordingly as well.
I see no reason why a customer should acknowledge their errors and bad company choices and just let them be, while there’s money involved.

And if you feel that ANet isn’t delivering on what you paid for, cancel your account and don’t consider the “kitten happens” factor. You can get your refund, and it won’t matter that they close your account ‘cause you’re leaving already. The sunk cost fallacy still applies here. You can walk away from them just as much as they can walk away from you.

Spira.4578:

Yea, you stated it. And you have no proof of that.

Nor do you have proof that this is an ill-considered whim. I’m going what I think is more likely, but you’re right in that both our positions are positions of belief.

Spira.4578:

You don’t let the villains be, you try to fight them and make a change.

Yup, and if the villain is a company the effective way to fight them is to not give them your business, and make it public as to why. You’ve done the latter, congrats.

Spira.4578:

Why don’t you leave since you made your position clear time and again?

ROFL, because I’m enjoying the conversations going on. I’m interested in peoples perspectives, and reasoned arguments for their positions. Also, I enjoy promoting contemplation of possible factors that aren’t being considered. In short, because I try to be as informed as I can.

Spira.4578:

Yes, an unreasonable budgeting and resource allocation. If working on a new expansion is not only slowing down but actually freezing the development of the expansion players already bought, then they should relocate their resources.
They are building the second floor while the first floor is getting on fire.

To my mind a more apt metaphor would be they’re still planning the construction of a second annex while simultaneously realizing that one of the rooms in the first annex wasn’t structurally sound. Two different annexes… two distinct considerations.

Spira.4578:

Take away 6 devs from the 70 devs in the expac team, you’ll end up with 64 devs. Still doing what they were doing, just 8.62% slower (meaning, instead of releasing the next expac in 20 months, they would release it 1 month later. This means their profit would be DELAYED by 1-2 month.
Take away 6 devs from the 6 devs in the legy team, you’ll end up with 0 devs. 0 devs = No progress at any rate.

Given that the expansion team likely consists of people in different roles, it’s just as possible that 6 devs removed from the expac team means 40% slower or any other percentage you wish to throw out there including 100%. I don’t think it’s safe to assume that every dev in that team can do the work of every other dev in that team. Likewise I don’t think it’s safe to assume that all or even most of the devs in the expac team are capable of doing the work required of the legendaries development team. Different roles mean different skill sets. Likewise we don’t know what roles in the LW team the legendaries team got moved to.

Spira.4578:

In a trade where I’m involved things will go my way. If I held my end of the deal, I expect the other side to do the same. I can accept the fact that sometimes bad things happen; and that’s why I’m open to other options – However, ANET didn’t actually present any.

Other than a greater focus on LW content, you mean?

Spira.4578:

Yea, bad things happen, however, you’re supposed to deal with those bad things by yourself or you could ASK for help.
ANET didn’t do that. They simply acted on their own without consulting with the customers who already paid to get the product in the state that it was promoted.

Consulting the customers? Customers pay for products but they don’t own the company. Even most employees don’t have the authority to consult with the leadership, and they work for the company. Further down you recognize that it isn’t feasible in this case for the company to effectively consult, so I’ll drop this for now.

Spira.4578:

How about you first stop being so holier than tho’? .

No, but thank you for asking.

Spira.4578:

And to answer to this insult. No, that’s not how things always work.
It is also an expectation for adults that they would have some sense for money value. Which you clearly don’t since you’re okay with the fact that ANET took your money but didn’t deliver the product as promoted. I’m sure you’ll “see this situation in a different way” tho,
“where ANET is the victim who simply wanted all the best for the community”.

I’ve never thought of ANet as anything more than a business. They’re not my friend, they’re a company. I think their product is awesome, and I like what I know of their employees. But, I don’t base any purchasing decisions on a digital product that hasn’t been completed. I look at digitial products as they are when money changes hands, not what their future is promised to be. I get entertainment for my money now, and when I cease getting entertainment worth my money I will move on to other sources of entertainment.

Marketing is lies. How far those lies can stretch is determined by local laws, but it is always lies none-the-less. When is the last time you ordered fast food and what you got looked like the picture?

That is one of the ways I approach money value… I base it on what’s in front of me and the information I can research about it; not on marketing. So, how is my approach to money value more flawed than yours? I make sure my digital purchases aren’t based on promises of the future. I’m sorry you didn’t do the same.

Spira.4578:

So the compensation for the customers who bought the expansion and got the expac feature canceled, would essentially be the sustainable CORE content which everyone gets for free.

LWS3 will be gated behind HoT, and that content coming faster means more of it… that is certainly a form of compensation to those in HoT. For me, it wouldn’t matter if it is Core instead of HoT; ymmv.

Spira.4578:

ROFL. Yea, you have a GREAT sense for trading.

Thank you… you intend that as an insult, but I’m taking it as a compliment. I’m happy to be open to the idea that compensation can be something other than a partial refund or a one-for-one product exchange.

Spira.4578:

Not to mention that the company is supposed to ask the customer if they are okay with the change. Clearly, something on this level can’t be done in such manner, so a partial refund should be in order (it’s being practiced with e-goods since 2015)

We agree that some type of remuneration is in order, at least. As to be expected we don’t agree on what that is.

Spira.4578:

You must be new here. That’s exactly to what ANET reacts. “Raging” on a forum and other social media.

I try to be cautious not to confuse correlation with causation. I think that ANet heavily considers player consensus, but that’s not always the same as giving in to people being vocal in social media.

~EW

Spira.4578:

Totally! We cast them as a villain because we don’t agree with their decision – Their decision to take our money for a product they now refuse to deliver.
If you do this anywhere around the world, you can get a lawsuit, meaning, you’re not acting according to the law, meaning, you’re the villain

It’s just not that simple, I’m sorry you don’t see that. You (and others) ascribe malicious intent and duplicity where there isn’t any proof of any ill intentions… in fact, there’s more evidence to the contrary. You read the announcement as “refuse to deliver,” and I read it as, “can’t deliver.” Yeah, they should have known better than to take up a project that isn’t reasonable for them to complete right now, but sometimes kittens happen, and we’re all watching how they take responsibility for that. Also, as has been stated previously, there is no way such a choice was taken lightly or without examining the laws… I’ve yet to see anyone give more than armchair legal perspectives which doesn’t prove they broke the law or are villains. Intentional or otherwise. And, if you think they’re villains, why are you bothering hanging around in their forums after you’ve made your position clear time and again?

It’s definitelly not mature to be okay with a company not delivering the product you paid for. It’s actually the opposite, as the people you see as “mature” has no sense of money value.

..another way to look at it might be the “people I see as mature” don’t have an over-inflated sense of money value. *shrugs

Spira.4578:

It has nothing to do with what he thinks. It’s simple logic.
They said “hey, we’re not gonna give you what you paid for and we’re not gonna do anything about it, sorry” and if you say something in the line of “That’s okay, It’s for the greater good”, aren0t you “meekly accepting” the situation?
/rhetorical

What decision a person comes to after they feel they’ve given the situation due consideration isn’t meekly accepting anything… it doesn’t matter whether that conclusion is “I hate ANet” or “whatevs.” A considered decision is never meek… neither are the people willing to take the time to talk about it.

Spira.4578:

Unreasonable?
I think it’s more unreasonable that they have enough money to pay 70 devs working on the next expac, while they don’t have enough money to pay 6 devs to work on the content that we bought.

No, that’s budgeting and resource allocation… Just because one feature they’re working on becomes no longer feasible, doesn’t mean they cease work on other features. Do you seriously think they didn’t consider diverting more resources to legendary weapon development?

They have to consider current content and income as well as future content and income… and yeah, people being upset about the postponement of legendaries is going to impact their future income… but not as much as ceasing development all together on the other things they’re working on to put more time into something that is currently a money/development sink.

Spira.4578:

It’s actually a very reasonable to demand for what you paid for.

And it’s reasonable to listen to when the people you paid can’t deliver, their reasons for it, and their offers of remuneration however they’re offered…. because sometimes in life things won’t go your way, and the more you know the better position you are in to make informed decisions. Throwing a temper tantrum is the purview of children. Stating you’re upset, considering the facts you have and your available options, then deciding what to do about it in a calm manner is the expectation for adults.

Spira.4578:

In similar cases, there are a few different reasonable things that could be done – all coming from the company and not the customer. The customer already paid and met their end of the deal. If the other side can’t deliver what was promised, they should, in fact, give some kind of compensation. We’re not asking for a full refund – that would be unreasonable.

Sure, I agree that some type of compensation is in order, I’ve stated that earlier, and I’ve also stated that I see the most realistic compensation would be for more investment by the company into sustainable content as a substitute for the content they couldn’t sustain. The absorption of the legendaries team by the LW team is a start to that. There might be other things ‘planned,’ but since all of that takes time are you patient enough to wait and see? This thread is evidence enough that it’s a bad idea for them to ‘advertise’ what they’re working on before it’s finished… so it’s reasonable to conclude you won’t know what you’re getting in remuneration until it goes live.

But, you also have agency. Choose to do something. Leave, stay, wait and see, talk with a lawyer, withhold money from future purchases, whatever… But, show some initiative and make a choice beyond raging on a forum.

Spira.4578:

The best thing they could do is restart this group, but we’re aware that it might not happen.
However, what could and actually SHOULD happen, is ANET, react appropriately as a company.

And, that’s where we find ourselves disagreeing. In many ways I do see them acting ‘appropriately as a company.’ You and other’s don’t agree, and that’s fair.

If the best think they could do is to “restart” the legendaries, then they wouldn’t have postponed them in the first place. It’ll go a long way to curb your anger if you accept the fact you are not in possession of all the relevant information needed to make the decision they did.

~EW

You come across to me as too angry to even consider what anyone else has to say contrary to your rage, but what the heck…

Tachenon.5270:

Anet cast themselves in the role of villain by making the decision to not deliver what was advertised, and what people paid for.

No, you cast them as a villain because you don’t agree with their decision. The world is full of a lot more grey areas than we’re taught there are as children.

Tachenon.5270:

Us vs Them anger may or may not help, but Us meekly accepting it tells Them they can do it to Us again whenever they feel like it.

I’ve seen no one in this thread “meekly accept” anything. I’ve seen people trying to maturely and reasonably discuss why such a decision was made. I’ve seen people raging and threatening legal action. I’ve seen people utilize their agency and let people know what they are going to do in response. I’ve seen a lot of people just venting their frustrations. Are you just saying that anyone who doesn’t agree with your position is “meekly accepting” what happened? /rhetorical

They can do what’s in their legal bounds to do whenever they feel like. If you disagree what those legal bounds are, go talk to a lawyer. If you don’t accept their decisions, go play another game. You have the freedom to not play the game if you don’t like decisions the company makes… exercise it if you want… you can’t directly control the company, and you can’t directly control the other players, but you CAN set the example for yourself and live up to your ideals. Vote with your wallet.

Tachenon.5270:

Don’t try to make this the customers’ fault. This is on anet. No one else.

I never claimed the decision of ANet ceasing work on legendary weapons the fault of the customer. Unreasonable demands and non-constructive rage in response to this decision is the fault of the customer. Anger is expected, but reason needs to win out.

~EW

mrstealth.6701:

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

Your local store advertises buy one get one free cans of green beans, you go there and they’re out of green beans, they give you a substitute of corn (or a rain-check for a future visit, or whatever). Substitutes happen frequently enough.

And that rain check is the very monetary compensation I was talking about. The rain check is offered because the consumer cannot be expected to accept another product. In fact, advertising a product that you intend on substituting with another product is called “bait and switch”, and is usually illegal. Not that I’m claiming ’"bait and switch" applies to Anet in this case, though there are some similarities.

And the store determines what that compensation is… if they choose to make it a rain check, then so be it… but they don’t always. Heck, in this example the rain check can be equated to “indefinitely suspended.” You can get the green beans when they’re back in the store, but no eta on when that is.

There might be some similarities, but it’s not bait-and-switch if the company intended to make good from the outset… as I’ve said earlier, they can prove they made that effort (to me it’s evident). Intent plays a role in this, and their intent was to provide that content; not dupe their customer base. Kitten just sometimes happens, even to those with the best of plans and intentions.

Villainizing ANet for this decision may help some people to justify their rage/anger/hatred over the decision… but it also keeps those same people from seeing other parts of the picture and come to a reasoned decision about what they wish to do in response. Us vs Them anger helps no one.

~EW

mrstealth.6701:

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

Yup, which is again why my point was to discount individual reparations as well as ambiguous murky reparations, and instead focus on what’s realistic. Which is sustainable content as a substitution for what they aren’t/weren’t able to provide. Unfortunately that still takes time.

~EW

Except, that’s generally not an acceptable compensation for a marketed product/feature that failed to be delivered.

Except that it is… substitutions are offered frequently when a provider can’t deliver what they advertised. Whether or not the consumer thinks it’s enough is a different matter, but substitutions are frequently given in all areas of consumer goods. Your local store advertises buy one get one free cans of green beans, you go there and they’re out of green beans, they give you a substitute of corn (or a rain-check for a future visit, or whatever). Substitutes happen frequently enough.

mrstealth.6701:

When such compensation does get offered, it is typically presented as an alternative option to a refund(whether full or partial) or other monetary compensation.

Technically it is in this case. You can accept that the legendary team is moved to the LW team to more quickly bring content than what would otherwise happen. Or, you can get a full refund (which unfortunately locks your account). Or, you can walk away from the game. But, the alternative compensation has been enacted in lieu of a refund.

mrstealth.6701:

The customer cannot be expected to simply accept whatever other product the seller decides to deem as equal to the previously undelivered product.

In fact, this is essentially what Anet has tried to do in this case. Their “compensation” was moving devs from legendary weapons to the live team to bring better living world content. This is the very “compensation” that people are angry about.

And their anger/frustration is expected. But enough time hasn’t passed to prove if the compensation is adequate. And, there will always be some people for whom it isn’t. I am glad that you do recognize the team being moved as a form of compensation (regardless if you approve of it or not)… many people in this thread don’t yet see it that way.

~EW

Tachenon.5270:

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

Should they be willing to give partial refunds, the big dilemma is how does ANet distinguish between those who bought HoT primarilly for the legendaries and those who’d just want a partial refund ‘cause it’s being handed out?

Why even ask such a question? Why people bought HoT is irrelevant.

Many people in this thread feel it’s relevant…. hence why I rhetorically asked it.

Tachenon.5270:

What is relevant and what cannot be denied is this: Anet took money for something they advertised and didn’t deliver. Therefore, any refund given should be given to everyone who bought HoT, because everyone who bought HoT didn’t get what anet told them they would get for their money.

A full refund across the board is unreasonable. And, a partial refund I addressed in a later rhetorical question when I asked how much is appropriate… all that leading to my point that a partial monetary refund is murky territory at best, and substituting future sustainable content is a much more viable option.

mrstealth.6701:

Everyone that bought HoT, bought the same product, sold as including the same promoted content. It doesn’t matter if the undelivered portion was of particular value to each person, they are all entitled to the same product, or equal compensation in its place. The fault is with the company, and they are required to treat all purchasers the same.

Yup, which is again why my point was to discount individual reparations as well as ambiguous murky reparations, and instead focus on what’s realistic. Which is sustainable content as a substitution for what they aren’t/weren’t able to provide. Unfortunately that still takes time.

~EW

I prefer focusing chunks of content at once. So, if there were frequent small updates, I’d save them up and then devote time specifically to them.

Problem is, I don’t like being part of a content zerg… so if they were larger infrequent updates, I’d still put them off to do for a time.

I’m kittened every which way, lol.

~EW

P.S. Either way if I run out of stuff to do, I move on to other games for a time… I feel it’s silly to log in and be bored whether it be for short stints of regular time (due to frequent brief updates) or long stints of regular intervals (due to larger infrequent updates).

Ashen.2907:

Obtena.7952:

Even if I was due a refund, it would only be reasonable for it to be the part of the expansion that pertained to the partially delivered feature, not the whole thing, since I have been satisfied with other aspects AND got entertainment value from it. I just don’t have the audacity to eat a whole buffet and ask for a refund because they didn’t deliver chocolate ice cream that day.

I can agree with this. Unless someone’s primary interest in, reason for purchasing HoT, was the new legendaries I think that compensation for Anet’s failure to deliver on a advertised and paid for feature need not necessarily be a full refund.

Should they be willing to give partial refunds, the big dilemma is how does ANet distinguish between those who bought HoT primarilly for the legendaries and those who’d just want a partial refund ‘cause it’s being handed out? If legendaries were even a partial consideration for some (which is more likely) how do you draw that line in how much consideration makes one eligible for a partial refund? If they just give a partial refund to everyone across the board, how much is appropriate? There’s too much ambiguity for such a solution to make it viable.

Their better bet is to keep adding on things to HoT (that they might not have in the first place) to somehow make some type of amends to those who are disgruntled. Things that are more sustainable than the legendary weapons development.

No matter what they attempt to make amends, it won’t be enough for some people. Especially that no matter what it is they’ll try, it’s going to taketime to enact. Patience is very difficult for anyone who’s genuinely upset about anything.

So, what it comes down to is if a person can’t accept the reasoning for the cease of legendary development, and they don’t accept any eventual attempts by ANet to make up for it, they’re going to have to make a judgement as to if it’s important enough of an issue to stop playing and just move on to other things…. or cease investing into ANet for a period of time they deem appropriate… or pursue legal action… or whatever means they can devise that allows them to exercise their agency.

~EW

StormageddonBK.9842:

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

StormageddonBK.9842:

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

They’re telling you their intent… but nothing concrete… “set of 16” isn’t enough for me; those are just words for their intended finished product.

Where did they say, “it is our intent”, I would really like to see your source.

Until the product is finished, it’s all just intent. Doesn’t matter how specific or vague they are with their words.

~EW

No that’s not correct if it’s being sold. As soon as you start taking money for said product you no longer can change your scope willie-nillie.

They didn’t change their scope willie-nillie. In fact 3(4) completed legendaries is probably enough evidence to show that they made an effort to fulfill what they marketed for that feature… which probably goes a long way to keep them in the legal safe-zone, along with other things such as their (controversial) refund policy.

~EW

StormageddonBK.9842:

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

They’re telling you their intent… but nothing concrete… “set of 16” isn’t enough for me; those are just words for their intended finished product.

Where did they say, “it is our intent”, I would really like to see your source.

Until the product is finished, it’s all just intent. Doesn’t matter how specific or vague they are with their words. My source is reality, welcome to it. Without a finished product, there only exists intent to create that product.

~EW

mrstealth.6701:

I get the impression that you’re one of the shoppers that tends to tear open a box in the store to be sure that what’s inside matches the picture. Not that there is anything inherently wrong with doing so, though I doubt the store or another person eventually purchasing the item are very appreciative of it.

You are free to have whatever standard you desire on believing the product being sold is what you really getting.

Lol, I’m just the type of consumer who doesn’t buy software based on what’s it’s intended to be made in to… And, yes, that also means I never pre-order games or expansions as a personal policy. But, that’s neither here nor there.

mrstealth.6701:

But consumer protections and laws regarding accuracy in advertisement are in place to give a consumer reasonable confidence that what is ‘on the box’ is actually ‘in the box’. Of course that, doesn’t stop a company from trying. It does, however, mean that the company is in the wrong and that the responsibility does not lie on the consumer for believing the advertisement.

I’m not a lawyer of any kind. But, I am pretty confident that before making such an announcement ANet would have had lawyers who were paid to know about the various consumer laws make sure they weren’t in the legal danger zone.

In other words I know enough about law to know that I don’t know enough about law to make any sweeping statements that they’re in the legal right or wrong.

~EW

mrstealth.6701:

This is a fairly non-vague statement.

Additional legendary weapons will be released in small groups at regular intervals until the full set of 16 has been added to this game.

I shouldn’t need a detailed list or picture of every screw, nut, bolt, and washer included in the box of a new desk to be confident that those items are indeed included. But Anet’s marketed legendary weapons were more specific than a vague mention of “parts included”. Not just “legendary weapons”, or “a set of legendary weapons”, but they explicitly said a “set of 16”.

And as has been mentioned a few times before, and remains true as of right now, that information is still on the HoT website.

Nope, to me that still counts as marketing and vague info. They’re telling you their intent… but nothing concrete… “set of 16” isn’t enough for me; those are just words for their intended finished product. Show me some concept art, and some lore, and some video of characters wielding them and showing off effects, and then there starts to be something substantive to base a purchasing decision on. I’ll believe the product exists when the code is done.

~EW

mrstealth.6701:

That’s certainly good advise for features that are hyped up or vaguely described. But the fact that we were getting a complete set of legendary weapons wasn’t vague info or hype. The only part left unclear was the time frame for that delivery.

I suppose that’s where we’re going to disagree, I’m sorry. I don’t remember seeing any art for the complete set, there’s no description of visual effects, no complete list of names, no lore, nothing but marketing and eventually 3(4) weapons. The weapons that are released are proof enough they made a “good-faith” attempt at delivery… but otherwise what I saw was vague info and marketing.

~EW

Just a flesh wound.3589:

I’m kind of wondering how many who say, “it’s not important” or “it’s for the good of the game” would be complaining if instead it was announced that raiding and Legendary armor was cancelled after 2 wings made.

If they did cancel it now and people who are currently saying it’s no big deal start complaining, I’ll be most amused.

It’s hard to tell how big that venn diagram would be. In part it would depend on how well the reasoning for the cancelation is stated. However like now with the legendary weapons, you’re always going to have people who won’t accept or don’t understand the reasoning.

~EW

Because Condi Cleanses exist very readily (although admittedly less so for the Warrior class than others).

Vitality is a help because it gives you more time to utilize your condi cleanses, and that’s how it contributes as a defense stat vs condi damage.

Warriors are given more base health largely due to the fact they have less condi cleanses available.

~EW

Just a flesh wound.3589:

There’s option 4 available to those who buy gems with real money. Don’t buy gems with real money until you get the price of the expansion back.

I do enjoy the “vote with your wallet” approach to consumerism. You can’t control what other consumers do, you can’t control what the company does, but you can control what you do with your money… so setting an example with your own actions… whether or not it changes anything doesn’t matter, what matters is you’re not compromising on your ideals.

~EW

ZudetGambeous.9573:

bloodletting wolf.2837:

I’m fascinated by how many post the same half dozen people have made complaining about this the past 30 pages.

Well turns out not all of us are just willing to [censored] take it from Anet.

It also turns out that some of us learned previously not to buy video games or expansions based on what it’s promoted to be before the code is finished being written. No matter how charismatic and trustful the seller.

“The burned hand teaches best. After that, advice about fire goes to the heart.” -JRR Tolkein, The Two Towers

I buy based on what’s there, not based on what’s promoted for the future… I learned that lesson long before ever buying GW2… and that’s why I’m not upset by this news, nor upset with ANet… and that’s why I still play and love GW2.

~EW

Try building a Guardian that heavily utilizes burning and you’ll see why it doesn’t need to be nerfed.

~EW

Veeber.3192:

Access the laurel vendor in wvw, it’s only available there.

According to the Wiki (at the bottom of the Badge of Honor page), since the release of HoT WvW laurel vendors no longer sell Taste of Liquid World Experience.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Badge_of_Honor

~EW

Allison The Strange.4519:

What I’m referring to would not be a democracy… What I’m referring to would be allowing for more player input and suggestions directly to the game developers… They would of course still have the fine say in all matters but I’m certain it would help development greatly if ANET actually had some real player input that they listened to…

They do take in player input. They do read the forums. Even though they may not be as communicative as you (and others) would prefer, but imo that’s how it should be.

The player zeitgeist is only one of a myriad of metrics that they need to consider for any changes, additions, and improvements to the game. By making your suggestions and commentary on the forums, you are informing them… the popularity of those suggestions informs them… but they have player/game data, budgeting, staffing, balancing, and programming feasibility considerations to make, too… and I don’t think any of those are any less or more important than the forum commentary.

If they were to be as active on the forums as some people seem to want, then the forums would become about us talking to them, instead of us talking to each other like a community should. The discussions we have with each other are probably more valuable to them than us all just talking at them.

Just because someone has an amazing idea for a change or improvement, doesn’t make it feasible. The likelihood of the person not understanding important mitigating factors is very high. It’s a waste of resources to devote so much direct attention to community involvement in game development: too many cooks spoil the broth.

~EW

Nuggi.7861:

Well, nothing were never announced or decided regarding lower the price on scribe/decorations. Rumors circulate about a lot in the game, but had I known this, i wouldn’t have used so many rl-money on this.

ANet is under no obligation to let us know the changes they make until they’ve made them.

It’s polite if they do. It’s helpful if they do. But, it’s not mandatory they do.

~EW

If you think that there should be some compensation for them reducing the costs, then by the same logic if they were to raise the cost they should somehow charge everyone who had gotten it cheaper.

Cost adjustments for nearly everything in existence are almost never retroactively applied (in any form, including other compensations). It’s almost always from the point of time of the change going forward. There’s nothing unfair about that. The cost is what it is when you paid it, not the lowest cost at all points in the timeline.

~EW

My personal tastes find the Warrior and Necromancer most interesting for leveling and exploring these days. The Warrior is because the skills give me a good visceral feeling that my character is swinging/using the weapon. The Necro because each category of utility skill and each weapon feel significantly different from each other.

I’ve not felt that any of the classes are boring, but there are 3 classes that just don’t mesh well with my play style: Mesmer, Engineer, & Thief… I can’t get much more specific than they just don’t gel with how I like to play.

~EW

ArchonWing.9480:

Existing chacters are irrelevant to the topic because those slots still have value and having them reserved for this purpose feels like quite a hassle if I know I have to kitten them and leave them without boosts for an extended period of time.

Personally, I have 8 characters devoted to certain specific purposes, and I don’t find that to be adequate that I need to restrict one to that degree.

But, Again. That is just sidestepping the issue. Deflecting this onto the player doesn’t change the nature of the complaint.

This is the same as if someone were complaining about a pothole and they did find a detour but then just dismissed any input about fixing said pothole.

And we are not talking about throwaway buffs either.

The player base can’t fix your “pothole” so please try to not get testy about the fact they’re not… they’re doing what’s in their power to do, and that’s help you think of ways to deal with your problem: ways to go around your “pothole.”

You brought up your complaint: awesome. There’s a chance someone in ANet has read it; that the persons who can fix potholes are aware you’re upset. But, if you’re not open to the other players helping you realize your options, then maybe next time make that clear in your op? at least be open to others helping you with your options?

~EW

P.S. All buffs are throw-away buffs.

Edit: fixed a bad mistake on my part. Sorry.

trouble.3562:

Hello,

im an old player, super active on this game and i want to hear points of view.

First: How many players you think we have actually at March 2016 playing actively this game.

Ummm… enough people that I haven’t seen a world boss event fail in a very long time unless I was on an overflow for Teq. Enough people that I have to watch my banner like a hawk. Enough people that I’m regularly the dumping ground of an aggro train of someone sprinting by. Enough people that the map chat seems active no matter the map I’m on.

trouble.3562:

Second: What future can we expect? Thinking this while new features from Hot seem not “completed”, thinking this also cause new legendaries have been cancelled, thinkin this becouse WvW seems left behind.

You can expect a future where ANet tries to balance being a business and providing us entertainment as their business. You can expect things to be added/removed that cater to your desires as a player, and you can expect things to be added/removed that have nothing to do with your interests in the game.

As long as you still have fun things to do in the game, you can expect to have fun. When you run out of fun things, you can expect to need to find fun elsewhere… hopefully only until more fun stuff gets added that entices you to return.

You can expect your in-game friends to come and go, as their interests and needs change for their entertainment.

trouble.3562:

Note: I love this game, im not crying about nothing. But this is something that’s on my thoughts and seems people are thinking this game has no future. Please convince me otherwise, if you can.

No trash talk please.

tyvm gl

There are always going to be people around crying the sky is falling. They might be right… but more likely it’s that “this game has no future” for them. I’ve never met anyone who could reliably predict the future (which is why I usually have an umbrella with me).

What’s important for you is your entertainment needs. Does GW2 still provide it? If yes, then by all means keep playing.

I’ll look forward to your aggro train, but leave my banner alone.

~EW

Edit: TL;DR: Hakuna Matata

RoseofGilead.8907:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-April-1-2016-Part-2

ROFL! It’s the, “be careful what you wish for” patch!

~EW

Astralporing.1957:

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

A hitch in these kinds of discussions is that we didn’t buy a physical product. It’s not like a radio we bought at the store.

By current EU laws, there’s no difference.

You missed (and cut out of my quote) the second part of what I said… unless you are saying that by EU law there is 0 difference between a purchase a physical product and a license under the law?

~EW

edit: just to be clear I have no pony in this race. I’m just trying to point out a possibly overlooked factor in this discussion.