As I have said before…
Kits are what make the engineer, you CAN not balance the elite spec to be viable without kits as ADDING kits would then just make it better and likely OP.
This obsession with no-kit running is so strange. It is a CORE mechanic of the class.
Celestial isn’t the problem, or you would have a lot more classes running it.
Its not like the ONE other cele build is strong vs everything, its very effective vs condition and semi effective vs cele ele, but its EXTREMELY weak to focus fire and CC.
Anything but AI, been saying this for weeks.
It is entirely possible that this is just a visual minion but they do not count as minions.
Some people have suggested they might act as signet, and since signets are magic in nature, the engineer would need something that make it more realistic.
LoS and kiting are two different things. Against a MM, you can keep fighting the Necro just fine while kiting the minions. Against a turret engie, if you LoS the turrets, you can’t fight the engie either.
Engineer-turret interaction does (except for heal turret) relate only to placement and timing of the actives (including detnation). All turrets are ranged and either homing (rocket), AoE (flame, thumper), or incredibly fast projectile (rifle) meaning that to avoid them, actual active defenses must be used. To avoid minions, you can just keep running around.
So, the Engie doesn’t need to lock anyone down for the turrets to be effective. The Necro does. Likewise, if an engie spread his turrets (most did, including all good ones), you couldn’t destroy them all in one go. Necros don’t have the ability to prevent their minions from getting grouped up for AoE.
Additional counterplay and interaction between master and AI makes MM Necro a healthier build for the game than Turret engies were.
they were nearly impossible to kill (the turrets) and could actually be used in higher tier to some extent.
Not even remotely true but lets not get into that age old conversation again.
The point that i am TRYING to make is that MM isn’t really any different to turret engi. ACCEPT that its more mobile and the minions can be crit/condid/ccd. But something to note is that they can be effected by boons too, which turrets never could.
I honestly think its no different and that it shouldn’t be allowed to be even remotely viable UNLESS turret engi is brought back, only fair….
I don’t like passive builds, but lets be fair here.
Rather different from turret engie in actual play, though. Minions can all be AoE’d down together while turrets can’t be. Most minions can also be kited while turrets can’t be. Plus, the Necro needs to both lock down the opponents so the minions can hit as well as keep the minions alive so they can return the favor. There is a lot more interaction between Necro and Minion than there ever was between Engineer and Turret.
Of course turrets can be kited, LOSing… Essentially the same thing.
And the interactions on Engi are less, for sure, but still not as little as you seem to make it…
Sounds like you are not familiar with engi to be honest. Nothing wrong with that, just an observation.
Any time you go from things working 50% or less of the time to working 95%+ of the time, things will be “better.”
MM Necro being decent I’d say is a good thing. The build has clear counters, strengths, and weaknesses while not being overbearing to the point where out-playing it is definitely a possibility.
Sounds EXACTLY like turret engi to me, and that was basically deleted from the game.
Never really had a problem vs turret engis, but I DO HATE passive play and don’t think that it should exist in any form of PvP. But that is just me…
Anyway, I give it a week, then this will be another very vocal hated build.
Also, the biggest issue with Turret engi was that pets were immune to conditions and not easily killed. That’s a pretty significant factor to consider, as once they were killable, they had similar potential but were much easier to just remove. MM are similar. They’re good for 1v1/ccing a target, but their capabilities are very limited. Turrets were actually good in team fights as they also provided boon share and other similar things. So yeah, maybe they have a 1v1 edge, I’ll grant that, they’re not nearly on the same level of being problematic. AI stigma will always be there in terms of what defines “risk v reward” but you have to have a foggy memory to compare MM to what Turrets were.
I feel that MM is stronger because they are mobile and can rotate without sacrificing a heavy CD, even the CDs are shorted on them than turrets were.
Actually you can be wrong here saying that pre patch weakness was a counter to vigor. It actually had very little effect because of how percentages work when regarding something as faster or slower.
Prepatch vigor was +100% regeneration and weakness was -50% regeneration. So you still had a net gain of +50% regeneration rate. After patch they are equal and correctly balance out. The below list is that of number so you can actually visualise why the change was made and see how weak weakness was when augmenting endurance regeneration.
Before patch
For one dodge : 10s
with weakness : 15s
with vigor: 5s
vigor+weakness: 6.667s
After patch
For one dodge :10s
with weakness :15s
With vigor: 6.667s
vigor+weakness: 10s
hopefully you can see why its been changed.
Interesting! Thanks for the numbers!
It is worth noting that Weakness isn’t the opposite of vigor, its basically a beefed up anti fury + anti vigor.
I think the effect just does too much in comparison to its counterparts.
I think of them like Mesmers. They’re annoying if all of your skills needs a target or can be body blocked. If your build primarily does damage in an AoE then they’re easier to deal with IMO.
Yeah true, don’t have issues on my engi, but good lord i am having issues with them on thief.
if a 4 mes comp team (and by the way 2 mes or 2 ele comp teams are extremely common) doesnt raise a flag in the Department of PvP Statistics at ANET, i dont know what will.
Dailies have an influence on the statistics as well. So I wouldnt say it flags anything.
teams have burning synergy, every seconds you got tons of burning stacks while fighting
Lets emphasis Team Synergy. That is the entire point of that condi change. I’m sorry that you’re team (if you have one) didn’t have condi cleanse synergy.
I have said this a thousand times, no game should EVER balance around JUST premades! EVER.
Does weakness reduce the BASE endurance regen or does it take vigor into account?
I know it does not effect Sigil of Energy.
Now for the reason behind asking.
Prepatch (23rd) vigor was arguably the most sought after boon and since boonstripping was less common it was immensely powerful. A very nice counter to it was weakness.
However it seems to have fallen out of favour now that it only increases endurance regen by 50%, which makes sense. HOWEVER i feel the boon is TOO weak right now and that weakness might be effecting it too much.
This obviously depends on the question i opened the thread with.
TLDR weakness might be too powerful and vigor too weak now that boonstripping/corruption is more common…
EDIT : I would like to add that nerfing weakness would mean an indirect buff to Ele, but that is a different debate and ele needs looking at anyway.
I play really really few stealths and max damage backstab build and I am doing fine. I have some probs with people spamming too many condis but still sometimes they are dead before they can apply more, after cleansing the first with shadowstep or the signet. Backstab thieves are still alive. Would like a few new tools though, and the new traitline might be good.
I really find it pointless to say something along these lines : “I have success with X”, because honestly that is your playstyle, we don’t know who you are facing nor can we measure how “doing fine” is really doing.
We KNOW that thieves rely on stealth to setup burst and survive in any semi reliable way… Soooo, not quite sure what these kinds of posts are supposed to accomplish.
The meta soldiers build makes a decent bunker, not as passive as turrets or minions, or as good as bunker guard, but it suffices and can be useful outside of pure bunker too.
I run the elixir variant with HGH which loses out on some power counters(no TK) but is a lot less weak to conditions.
IT IS NOT EVEN FULLY ANNOUNCED YET FOR THE LOVE OF ABADDON STOP WHINING!!!!!!!
WHINE after its out, by all means, but until then you are proving that the internet is a place for whiners…
Seriously can you not just be RATIONAL about things??
Kind of funny that medium armor class that have more evade than other classes can’t stay alive couple sec without stealth. I think that this is just normal thief players learn to dodge issue.
Well the truth is that the thief doesn’t in any way have more evades than other classes since the Accrobatics nerf.
Medium armor also means nothing in this game… Don’t feed the troll
Kind of funny that medium armor class that have more evade than other classes can’t stay alive couple sec without stealth. I think that this is just normal thief players learn to dodge issue.
There’s been traits data-mined that indicate we’re getting physical skills and our “elite” mechanic will be an extra dodge (150 endurance, instead of 100).
Inventions as a tree is very, very strong if you just sit down and look at the traits. It offers huge defensive increases that Alchemy can’t cover. Alchemy does offer a lot, certainly, but it does so more in the form of condition removal through Transmute and Alchemical Tinctures.
I VERY much agree with you. HOWEVER the reason inventions ISN’t as strong in the current state of PvP is :
1. All the adepts are bugged in some way.
1.A) Overshield – This was fixed, so not all. Still a pretty useless trait. Needs increased radius AND increased duration on protection to be remote useful. Right now you block for 3 seconds but and then only really get use of protection for one second.
1.B) AMR – Does not reset cleansing burst which is what makes healing turret strong.
1.C) Autodefense bomb dispenser – Does not drop a smoke field, so it only blinds ONCE, this is extremely bad…
2. The other main reason is condition removal. Alchemy + elixir S(and trait) is the only way we can survive reliably in this current meta. Alchemy provides much needed condition cleanse on a lower CD AND allows us to survive focussed burst at the cost of just ONE cooldown.
Inventions would be great if condition heavy builds were less common.
