I’d love to see their stats that can magically identify any one particular player motivation for participation at any given time.
They have usage stats on every single player in the entire game at all time, which is a ludicrous amount of data.
Can you identify the reason of a single player? No. Can you identify the reasons of hundreds of thousands of players across hundreds of millions of hours? Obviously.
Why Obviously? Even if they have the record of every player to log in or out of WvW and could cross reference that with whether or not there was a commander tag on that particular map at that particular time they could not with any confidence separate that particular motivation for logging in or out of WvW from all the other conceivable motivations a player could have had for logging in or out.
But even if I granted that they could, it still wouldn’t accomplish their professed motivation of incentivizing cooperation and inclusivity because an unwanted pug can be kicked from squad and ridiculed or left to die until they finally give up. This is exactly what happens to anyone who tries to join or run alongside a squad that doesn’t want them there.
If you want experienced players to try to mentor newer players you cannot get this by disallowing the more experienced players their ability to organize privately and run “under the radar” so to speak.
This policy accomplishes nothing except to aggravate the more experienced players in the game who do not want unskilled randos following them around.
You’re enabling weak minded players.
They’re keeping players in the game mode and undoubtedly have the numbers to support that. Doesn’t matter if you have all the tag-free features in the world if no one else is playing.
No they’re not and I’d love to see their stats that can magically identify any one particular player motivation for participation at any given time.
I’m more inclined to think that they’re just making an assumption about what people like and what people don’t like based on preconceived notions about their playerbase.
Like others have mentioned in this thread, we don’t think this would be a healthy feature for WvW. Many players will not participate in WvW if they don’t see a commander tag, and we try to avoid adding features that can be used to exclude players.
Bogus reasoning. It’s already easy to exclude players from a squad by kicking them.
Also quite frankly I don’t like the idea of anet catering to the lowest common denominator of player who won’t participate in the game mode unless they see a commander tag on the map. You’re enabling weak minded players.
Haven’t played condi rev in forever but I really enjoyed the video. I think the build makes a lot of sense considering the comp is so necro/epi focused.
If you watch the video you will see that despite Helseth winning every single 1v1 and a 1v2 and controlling the map with portal plays and getting bottom buff the rest of his team still almost find a way to throw the game. It’s worth mentioning that two different players on his team DC. So despite having arguably the best player in the game on their team it’s still almost not enough to carry a match in bronze.
I dunno these guys are way better at playing together than QQ imo.
GJ dude you’re on a leaderboard.
Revenant is essentially the opposite of Dragonhunter.
Revenant has a very high skill floor but high ceiling. In the hands of most players, you’ll be destroyed. However, once you’ve master it, you can do exceptionally well and compete with other skilled opponents on equal footing.
Why does it have a high skill floor? What’s so hard about learning revenant? I think it’s fairly simple to understand though admittedly I’m biased as I have almost 2k hrs on it now.
Why does it have a high ceiling? What do you think being really good at rev is going to let you do anymore? Landing big damage skills doesn’t equate to big damage numbers, auto attacking is a shadow of what it used to be. If you’re on coms with someone else and you’re coordinating targets you can quickly get kills but how is that different from DH or Warrior or Thief for that matter?
Dragonhunter has a very low skill floor, but also a low ceiling.
Does it?
But at higher skill levels, the playstyle of DH becomes too narrow and predictable, allowing it to be easily countered.
Rev isn’t predictable? The only thing unpredictable about rev is where they’re going to be phase traversing from on their open. Everything else is cookie cutter rotation. The offensive kit doesn’t leave itself open for much creativity.
Revenant needed the nerfs and probably needs more down the road.
Lol why? How bad does Revenant need to be?
The problem here seems to be that they don’t have a proper system for analyzing the individual worth of each player on each team on a game by game basis. Neither do they have a good system for recognizing the key factors for victory or loss for any given game.
So they’re basically just tallying wins and losses and assuming that a win meant everyone on the winning team was better than everyone on the losing team and that’s it. This is leading to erroneous rankings which is leading to terrible matches.
There’s a definite limit to how much any one player can conceivably “carry” a match. At some point matches can simply become unwinnable if there’s only one or two people on the losing side who are really trying to win. But to some degree this lack of caring is a rational response on the part of players. Why try to win if you’re still going to get points for just showing up?
This is one of those things that I think sounds ok in theory but would undoubtedly be extremely annoying in practice. I would be very nervous to see where they would draw the line on what exactly constitutes “server connectivity issues.”
But they can’t be bothered to reset pro league games where people are dcing past a certain point so I hardly think they’re going to shut down wvw when lots of players start dcing for a few hours.
I’ve moved around between BG, Mag and FA mostly. So maybe 10-15 transfers in total over 4 years.
I absolutely would. Not just for wvw but for every aspect of the game. It seems like they’re always scrambling to find the next dumb fluff cash shop item to sell instead of actually working on the game it would be a nice change of pace for them to have the money they need.
Start recording your matches and watch the replays everyday after you get done. This is the best way I know to try to analyze each match and figure out what worked and what didn’t. This method is time consuming and tedious but I guarantee you that you will have much more data to work with going forward.
The quoted text only mentions a “skills team” and a “PvP team.”
It says that the PvP team has control over the build panel while presumably the skills team has control over everything else.
They’re still mandatory for raids in WvW but I think most revs run Staff/Hammer.
Sword falls off pretty badly in medium to large scale fights.
If you’re just going to be doing pvp then I think you’ll be fine with sword.
I always find myself playing way more aggressively when I use offhand axe. Maybe it’s because Frigid Blitz is one of my favorite revenant skills although it frequently feels superfluous if I have Shiro. Temporal Rift is good for the pull on power builds but imo it’s far more devastating with condi builds because of all the aoe torment.
I guess Ventari based support isn’t for you.
Certainly not in its current iteration.
I also hate the tablet, I find it unwieldy and annoying. It’s really more like an anchor you constantly have to heave around while simultaneously worrying about all the other usual stuff.
I would much rather just have regular healing/warding/cleansing skills and ditch the tablet completely.
The utility of the traps isn’t just from the damage they do but also from the area control they instantly give the Guardian once they’re dropped. You have to always bear them in mind and it’s just another annoying thing to have to constantly worry about when you’re fighting on a point. Add to that the new weapon symbols and it’s just more area pressure, more circles within circles.
Rev is still ok imo but they keep making changes that make playing Shiro feel more and more clunky and frustrating while simultaneously neglecting to rework lesser used Legends like Jalis and Ventari. I also just generally dislike the whole Mallyx setup because it’s only really good for Pain Absorption and I suppose to a lesser extent Unyielding Anguish but it just feels so much less cool than it could be. They also keep nerfing the weapons. So every patch I just feel more and more limited and generally annoyed with the class. It makes it worse knowing that I have to wait another three months to see any potential changes.
Traps are just an obnoxious mechanic in a game mode that’s all about fighting over small circles.
The DH has an enormous amount of area control in a game where area control is ultimately the main objective.
I think there are three main factors which have consistently limited their appeal to pro teams:
1.) They’ve never been quite bunkery enough to reliably sustain in an outnumbered situation better than other potential bruisers/bunkers.
2.) They have generally lacked mobility compared to other potential roamers.
3.) It’s always been pretty easy for a coordinated high skill level team to play around their (imo) gimmicky damage.
But they’re still really annoying in random queues where no one’s on coms and that’s exactly where the complaints always come from.
1) The developpers are LISTENING to playerbase and are TRYING to balance classes out.
I have no doubt of this but they consistently fail and it gets old.
Balancing a competitive PVP game requires ALOT of time, dedication and testing.
This is true even with relatively simple games but GW2 is still so complex that a team of probably 3-5 guys will never have a chance. Even if there were only 5 total amulets to choose from it would still be a tough job but with so many choices and no public testing I think they’ve given themselves a virtually impossible task.
Happening to me as well.
This is probably why you don’t like the way things are. If you never get creative and find your nich and focus on copying other player’s nich you will never realize your true potential or enjoy pvp in the same way the other non copycat players do. Make a decent variation that suits you and it may change the way you see this issue.
This isn’t really about me. I’ve been able to accomplish pretty much everything I’ve wanted to accomplish using builds that other people have come up for as long as I can remember. There’s no reason to try to “find my niche” because the meta builds work. They work because they’re objectively stronger and more effective.
This is about making the task of balancing the game easier for the balancing team. I believe that the fewer choices players are given the easier it will be for the developers to balance the choices the players are left with.
Maybe they’re already thinking about it.
3. Promise of character customization and Unique build creation
I have no way of knowing exactly how important this is to players but I personally don’t really care as long as I can name my character and make them look how I want them to look.
I’ve rarely built my own stuff anyways I usually just copy it from a stream or a pvp video I’ve watched.
I would much rather have a system that was easier to balance than have the freedom to make builds. Also I would like Solo Queue back.
Yeah I think so. If by your calculations the game is unwinnable then yeah take a break and come back for the next game.
Balancing builds is not to make every single spec and every single build arrangement 100% fair
I think that’s exactly what balance is. The goal is to make player skill the dominant factor in determining who wins and who loses. Is it not?
Certain players find certain specs are stronger for their respective play style.
There would still be room for that. Certainly players would be able to find something appealing if there were say 3-5 good choices for each class.
What you suggest takes the creativity seen in GW1 and promised in GW2 out of the picture. If this happens you might as well play another MMORPG because the thing that set GW2 apart was build customization. With out that, you might as well play WoW.
I’ve always operated under the assumption that the main thing separating GW2 in the MMORPG market was the lack of a gear grind. At least that’s why I’ve kept playing. I’ve never played WoW but all the research I’ve done indicates that there’s pvp gear and that it matters.
I don’t have this problem. I don’t want a swear jar.
I will tell you my personal system. When someone harasses me, I harass them back but I try to be even meaner or caustic then they were. I never apologize and I never admit fault. So that’s the price for harassing me.
I personally take a great deal of satisfaction from these sorts of interactions and if I’m honest I kind of look forward to them a little.
The problem. GW2 doesn’t have enough diversity to truely have many meta builds per class.
I actually think the problem is there’s too much diversity (read complexity) for them to really understand all the potential implications of their balance changes. It seems like they balance by focusing on what’s ‘meta’ at the time but they often neglect to consider how the changes they make will bring other things to the fore.
I’m talking 5+ decent builds per class as was seen in GW1.
That’s not something that they can really force with their current system. In order for them to be absolutely sure they’ve created 5 decent builds they have to really restrict player choice first. If they created 5 different set loadouts for each class (so 45 builds in total) and then playtested each iteration extensively they could then have a pretty good idea of where they ultimately stood before a release. Their current system is to implement changes and then use their live servers to test each balance iteration. As a result it doesn’t seem like they have a very good idea of what the meta builds will be before the players do.
This fix you suggest is what they are doing right now. They are limiting players with each amulet they take away to slowly kill diversity. It is true we needed a sustain nerf but removing amulets is the wrong lazy way to do it. Eventually, if this continues, there will be only one or two anet/nerf directed meta build per class with no strange exception builds to try out like in GW1.
It’s a very slow and limited version of what I’m suggesting but I think it’s a step in the right direction. Two good builds for each class would be fine with me if that’s the best they can do.
The core issue. They need to add at least 5 times the set of skills each class has to see the diversity of Guildwars 1 and balance from there. It is already bad enough that we have preset weapon slot skills.
No I think that would make things worse because that’s 5 times more skills that would have to be balanced against one another. Complexity and balance are like opposing forces.
Consider that the most balanced games are ones where everyone gets the exact same tools at the outset. No complexity, very simple to balance. The only thing that differentiates players is skill. This is the ideal situation is it not? Every element of choice that’s introduced makes the game slightly more complex and therefore more difficult to balance.
(edited by Israel.7056)
Absolutely not. The current system allows players to make tweaks to fit their individual playstyle, even if most builds end up looking very similar…..True, in theory there are a tremendous number of potential combinations for A-net to worry about, but only a very small fraction of those are even viable- to say nothing of meta. A-net doesn’t have to worry about 99% of builds, just those handful at the very top and one or two from classes without any meta builds. They can do this without resorting to taking all options away from their players.
This is precisely my point. There are, in theory, an enormous number of potential builds and configurations of all the different parts but in reality people only ever use a few at any given time. Anet only has to worry about perhaps 1% of possible builds because everything else sucks. You have the illusion of choice but if you want to take the game seriously to say nothing of actually competing you’re pretty much forced into certain things anyways. Why maintain the illusion of choice? I don’t personally find it that comforting to know that I could make some ridiculous revenant build just to be a special snowflake.
I’d not want to be forced into a situation where the game tells me: “Sorry, if you want to use this weapon you have to use ONLY these utilities. What? You find them boring? You’d rather have a bit more stability or personal condi clear? Too bad for you.”
But you kind of already are. You just don’t feel like you are. If Arenanet set the goal of say 5 presets per class and could just focus on that number then that’s 2 to 4 more builds than most classes have really had since launch in any given balance cycle. I’ve even seen balance cycles that were so skewed in favor of one thing that teams were taking 4 of the same build for the same class. They weren’t forced to do it but they did it anyways because that’s how skewed balance was at the time. There are now rules in place for tournaments that restrict each team from doing this but there are no such proscriptions in ranked play. And guess what? I see a lot of the exact same builds over and over every time I play ranked. Often times there are several of them on both teams.
I don’t think this will change any time soon. I could be wrong but I don’t think pulling a few amulets is going to make balancing things that much simpler for them. It’s a nice start but I believe it’s ultimately a half measure because the removal of one meta choice always paves the way for the next.
Dear Arenanet,
In theory there are an enormous number of potential configurations of traits, runes, sigils, amulets, weapon sets etc for each class. It’s a veritable font of potential build diversity. Yet there are always a handful of “meta” builds that rise to the top for each class within each given balancing cycle. This phenomena can now be easily observed in pro league where quite frequently a large number of the teams end up running similar comps and similar builds despite the fact that no one is forcing them to.
At the end of each cycle, the “balance team” tries to find solutions to the balance issues at the time by nerfing things they think are too strong and buffing things they think are too weak. They do this while simultaneously trying to consider the implication of each change across three different game modes. Inevitably they fail to consider the implications of one or more of their changes when combined with some combination of trait, amulet, rune etc and the cycle begins anew. I’ve been watching this cycle for years now.
I believe that nerf and buff passes are an attempt to fix a symptom of the problem rather than attack the problem at its root. I believe the root of the problem is the inherent complexity of the system.
So I propose a radical solution: Make the system much much simpler
Get rid of swappable amulets and runes and sigils and weapon choices in pvp. Give us a set number (say 3 to 5) of pre-built configurations for each class. Give each preset build a preset trait, weapon, stat, sigil loadout and then just balance around those in pvp. This would get the number of builds down to 45 at most. Whenever a preset for a given class is under or overperforming you could look directly at that preset and attempt to actually fix it and not have to worry as much about the potential implication of each change across three game modes.
Build diversity is the natural foe of game balance. The more build choices players are given, the harder it is for you as developers to consider the implications of all those choices and balance them all against one another. Make the task of balancing easier for yourselves and I believe we as players will benefit by having a more balanced game.
Thanks for reading.
It depends on what you’re trying to simulate. Most of the time I fight necros they have full lifeforce so If I were going to duel necros I’d want them to start with full lifeforce so I could practice that scenario.
They could just make more arenas that have different objectives than simply capture and hold.
Isryel
no
Amber
Amber I guess
What I want is matches set up with players of roughly equal skills.
How many players do you think fit that description in your current division?
Of those players how many are online when you’re queuing?
No definitely not, this is probably just my way of coping with this.
Im trying to look at things from all sides. Ive been in T7 diamond for a good 3-4 days. I its not just zoose. Im getting ESL players on the other team every game i need to get into legendary and this is just my way of telling myself maybe its not my time.
Ive seen these players for years back in solo que and they are a notch above many of us. So i just try to remind myself that its not my fault they are better, its not there fault they always seem to be on the other team. Im also trying not to blame MM even though ive had 4 pips 5-6-7 times and couldnt get the win.
So like Dory said, just keep swimming just keep swimming.
I think that’s a pretty decent attitude to have. Do you feel like you’re getting better by playing in matches like that?
Still, I think it’s pretty clear evidence that matchmaking is a major factor in my success and that of other players.
That’s a pretty small sample size. I think you need to play more games but you also need to keep an open mind.
I think a big issue you have is that you go into these “experiments” with a set belief about what your problem is. You collect data but you filter it from the perspective that it’s all about matchmaking so from your perspective all the data always seem to point to your preconceived belief.
You play seven matches, acknowledge your results were somewhat atypical and yet you quickly reassert that your problem is strictly one of matchmaking.
I can’t imagine what would have to happen for you to be open to the possibility that there could be more reasons than just bad matchmaking hurting your progress.
To be clear I’m not saying that the matchmaking in GW2 is ideal. I’m simply trying to get you to be less dogmatic about your beliefs. Is it even conceivably possible that you’re not yet good enough to progress to whatever division you believe you’re deserving of?
I just wanted to share this because so many people talk about this game being no skill, its all premade ts, build comp, match making etc etc etc. Here you had a ESL player solo queing in Diamond and he just took over by winning a fight that 98% of the players in this game cant.
Zoose is a great player. So what?
Is the moral of the story that if Zoose can do it anyone can?
I think it’s time to just stop worrying about the wings.
Like what do you want them for practically speaking?
Toxicity exists on the internet because there’s not much risk for being toxic. People are free to say whatever they want whenever they want because the odds of someone taking the time to find them in real life and do something are slim. Combine that with the emotions that come out when humans compete and you get toxicity.
Increasing barriers to entry for ranked play isn’t going to change that.
From my own personal perspective I find the trash talking in GW2 to usually be pretty mild.
Uhmm I just took 23 straight losses today. I’ve been here day in and day out trying to fulfill the rather high requirements for the legendary.
In truth, I’d never come and play against this system for “fun.” It’s set up to create long loss streaks and get me hammered into the ground repeatedly. How is that “fun?” I’m here for the legendary. Otherwise, I could play unranked and not deal with this craziness.
Now I have a trust issue with ANET as well, since it’s becoming clear that I may well not be able to win the wings, regardless of what I do.
I’m logging off sick and depressed after this session. The reality is that all this “competitive” style matchmaking is doing is alienating the majority of players.
This is why people should be able to fall out of sapphire.
Some reasons I can think of:
1.) A lot of the tankier amulets have been removed
2.) Conditions are an easy way to do a lot of damage and pretty much every class can run some form of condi build. Mesmer Necromancer and Warrior are particularly potent right now.
3.) Cleanses are still unreliable and less readily available than condi application
4.) There doesn’t seem to be any sort of class stacking limit on the matchmaker
5.) Resistance isn’t widely available
Those are two completely different game modes with different rules that determine what is good.
Druid is solid in pvp and nearly worthless in WvW if you have people who can play Ele correctly.
Rev is basically just a resistance spam bot and Necros run power well spam.
I don’t think there is a single zerg build that is even close to the same as the respective class’s optimal pvp build outside of maybe rev.
It’s not really the rules that make certain builds good in WvW but rather the scale of the fights.
A full team fight in PvP is still just 5v5 which is small by WvW standards and most of the time the players are split up around the map so there are a lot of 1v1s, 2v2s etc.
It’s funny because while DH might be suffering in pvp they’re basically mandatory in wvw.
You mean base guardian? I believe that’s due primarily to a shout (“Stand Your Ground”) and a grand master trait (Indomitable Courage). Since I started playing the game those were two pillars that haven’t lost use because stability is helpful, but most everything else offered is replaceable.
I see mostly DHs running frontline. The new virtues are really good. Durability runes and boon duration food also make a big difference.
Things that annoy me about conditions in GW2:
1.) Ignores armor, isn’t effected by weakness.
2.) only really requires one offensive stat to be reasonably effective.
3.) Confusion does damage no matter what, torment does extra damage when you move.
4.) Cleanses don’t prioritize the way a player does.
5.) Condis can burst as well as wear down
6.) Too many attacks in this game have some sort of condi application built into them on top of their power effect.
7.) Too much passive application built into traits
8.) Still think burning is a little too strong
It’s funny because while DH might be suffering in pvp they’re basically mandatory in wvw.
I agree with your conclusion but the reasoning used to get there isn’t very well explained imo.