Guild Wars 2

LycRo.3657:

why not?
i like to play it, its fun to me after works to farm 2-3h straight only grinding some events or mobs.
but i want to make it worthfull and not a waste of time (its only my opinion)
i need gold , all i want is to know that there are ways to make money on a safe way, and not the x% chance way

Yes, farming sparkfly fen, you’d almost definitively bump into teq during that time as well = 2 gold. You will be done with farming platinum and hard wood within about 30 mins to 45 mins and that’s about 6 gold (right now) – you can do that on multiple alts, and you can also do teq on multiple alts and get the rewards except for the exotic wooden chest, that you can only get once per day. It’s also ~15k karma for each teq fight/defeat.

Don’t know if it helps but I first noticed weird lags on EU last September, I think, I’m a D/D thief an my CnD would miss even though I was running through two opponents who hadn’t had Aegis up -that “lag” went away only to come back in October or November. In December I finally had enough and transferred back to NA – there things got worse and I transferred back to EU (but another server) in January. It was fine for a bit and I have been able to fight like usual, but the luck event thingy at the start of February brought the lags back and they have stayed – so it’s very subtle lags, I can’t hit opponents who are standing right next to me, I “steal” farther than my opponent, so all of the sudden I’m half a metre behind them, I especially have troubles with thieves who I never had troubles with prior this update but they seem to “port” and dodge all over the place and I know they can’t.

Edit: And I guess at least some of my opponents sometimes have the same problems with me.

Ayrilana.1396:

Whether or not a skill challenge currently counts towards world completion has no bearing as to whether they will or will not count towards the new trait revamp.

I said nothing else – read?

Ayrilana.1396:

Those are two entirely separate things. Since they’re converted skill challenges to hero challenges, it’s safe to assume it’s all of them until they state otherwise. There’s really no reason to not include the others and there will surely be plenty more skill…. Er. Hero challenges with the expansion.

Yes question is if the wvw and excluded map SP challenges already done in the current “system” will be recognized by the new as it’s currently not recognized other than you have a SP more and a filledblue arrow on that map -so I’m curious as to how thi swill be handled and I already said that. Twice actually.

Ayrilana.1396:

Players can test builds in HotM which is what many of us did prior to retraiting becoming free. Players do not need every single trait and utility available immediately when they can easily figure out which ones they’ll never use and not need to spend points on. If they absolutely need everything unlocked, they can spend the couple hours at most doing the skill/hero challenges.

For that you have to be a veteran player, at least when it comes to skills, it’s harder to figure out what good most traits do.

Ayrilana.1396:

I’m not telling them to do PvP. Heart of the Mists is a great way to test out builds. There are mjnir differences due to how things are treated differently in PvP but not so much that you cannot get a reasonable conclusion on whether a build will be good for you with what you’re trying to accomplish with it.

I didn’t “quote” you but anet and I really don’t do pvp (occassionally, yes but I’m a wvw player, I test my stuff in either orr or wvw). With your proposal everybody should be doing pvp to then earn the points needed to get these skills (except probably 13) in pve – so someone who solemnly plays wvw is forced to go out of his way to get these things – and those players exist – a lot of them actually and I think that’s okay and I think those should have a fair chance to do whatever they like and still be able to level new characters and that’s my point.
Since the current trait system is such a mess everything that will come will be better, it’s hard to make things worse, but they still haven’t included pvp/wvw players and that’s pretty poor.

Ayrilana.1396:

You have to remember that WvW is not a closed off game type like PvP is.

Alright but you still can’t get your needed skillpoints in wvw,so?
Just because the stats aren’t altered in comparison to pve you don’t make it a separated game mode? Wow. There really are players who do nothing but wvw and come to think of it – I’m one of them. Just that I also sometimes farm stuff I need for wvw, like truffles, chili, mithril and elder wood.

khani.4786:

Jana.6831:

Ayrilana.1396:

The skill challenges in WvW will be changed to hero challenges or whatever it is that they’re calling them once the update is released. WvW players will still be able to get the new equivalent of skill points for progression in the new system just like they would in PvE.

Still they don’t count today, so they might have to be repeated when the new system hits and still it’s only 13.

They DO count today as skill points. Just as the skill points count in Southsun, Dry Top, and Silverwastes. Just because they don’t count towards 100% map completion doesn’t mean they won’t give you points as a skill point/hero challenge.

Yeah, I get a SP but I also get a SP when leveling up, my map thingy doesn’t say anything about one more completed challenge (why should it, wvw isn’t part of the map anymore) and maybe that isn’t recognized at all – today.

Edit: Maybe it’s just another skillpoint earned not a challenge completed.

Ayrilana.1396:

The skill challenges in WvW will be changed to hero challenges or whatever it is that they’re calling them once the update is released. WvW players will still be able to get the new equivalent of skill points for progression in the new system just like they would in PvE.

Still they don’t count today, so they might have to be repeated when the new system hits and still it’s only 13.

Ayrilana.1396:

My personal opinion is that bad players are bad regardless of the build that they use. Players are bad primarily because of a low skill level which generally improves as they play. Cookie cutter builds tend to be the optimal builds for a certain class and play style. Some have a higher learning curve than others.

When it come to mainhand dagger thieves I know whether or not the cookie cutter builds made some mistakes and they do. It’s not the optimized builds – at least not what I see as cookie cutter builds nowadays. So, these builds are made by humans who made mistakes and that’s fine, I use my cookie cutter builds to start from there (although all I ever do is play thief) but I think everybody should at least have a fair chance to create their own builds without a hassle as by that they can test each skill and trait by trial and error, just like I did.

Ayrilana.1396:

Players can tests skills in heart of the mists and decide upon themselves whether they’d be worth using or not.

Alright: “You want to play wvw? forget it, do pvp -with the sole purpose to test skills as you can’t afford them no matter what you do, except if you do pve!”

But I guess you just refuse to get my point, so no matter what I write here you’ll always reply that there’s an “easy solution” to this, which in reality isn’t a solution.

phys.7689:

IMO is nice to get things in spvp, but its completely uneccessary. You get everything unlocked in spvp.

You’re right, still my buddies who play pvp play wvw once they’re fed up with queues/teams/whatever nasty things happen in pvp.

Ayrilana.1396:

WvW players are only short like maybe 50ish skill points. Do people really need every single trait/ability unlocked immediately? I have many abilities across all of my characters that I do not even use such as the racials. The same goes for many of the traits.

You can get 13 SP in wvw which may or may not count as Skill Points since wvw map completion had been taken out completely.
And yeah, everybody in this game should be able to play like they want, I always assumed that was the idea behind the scrolls.
On the one hand anet wants pvp and wvw to be played on the other hand they force these players to do pve.
And it’s one thing if you don’t use any skills you already have and another to not even being able to test them because you can’t get them. That leads to cookie cutter builds and that usually leads to bad players (no offense, I’m using cookie cutter builds myself).

Ayrilana.1396:

None of the skill points are locked behind events, champs, or temples. I’ve gotten every one of them solo on 7 characters now. The Grenth one may be an issue but temples are frequently claimed that it’s not a problem. Chanps can be distracted by other players, pets, summons, etc. There are items that you can use that help you avoid them as well.

See,someone else did the event for you, but the SP are still locked behind events.
And Phys told me that you can access that area in fireheart rise without doing the event in the northwest corner of the wall.

phys.7689:

in my honest opinion, skill books was an error. they never expected so much champ runs, they admited that with bloodstone dust.
skill challenges was supposed to be the easiest/fastest method for obtaining skill points, followed by leveling.

Then they did a pretty bad job with that as all I’m doing is roaming in wvw (no champs there) and the occassional dungeon and I have tons of SP rolls – which I need though for crafting ascended gear, legendaries and superior siege. So if SP challenges alone were supposed to be the only income of SP (besides lvl up after 80) all of this wouldn’t work.

phys.7689:

so now they are separating the two resources. hero points only for skills, with a finite number, and no reason not to fully unlock, and djingots for post 80 item progression/gold

It is a “better” idea with two hinderances: wvw and pvp, there really are people who don’t do pve. So it’s not “Play like you want” but “Play like we want” and that’s the problem here. It’s one thing if people create a character after HoT and need to do this stuff, another to “take them away” what they basically already did. And that’s the point.

Although someone just said that nothing will be taken away and I’m a bit confused anyway, so maybe all works out. Still pvp and wvw are the stepchildren yet again.

phys.7689:

the people worried are the one who did not do skill challenges, but used skill books, or just leveled a ton of times

And rightfully so, don’t you think? These things are in the game so why aren’t they worth anything all of the sudden?

phys.7689:

Jana.6831:

phys.7689:

you can break that wall without having to the event. you just have to do it yourself instead of waiting for the npcs.

you can also walk up to temples for skill points, pretty sure i had to ninja multiple ones.

let me test the castrum one right now

No, I can’t -I tried and then did the event.
But yeah, test it.

northwest corner of the island, you can just walk up to it.

Right, I guess that was when someone needed to be rezzed yesterday so I didn’t see it.

phys.7689:

you can break that wall without having to the event. you just have to do it yourself instead of waiting for the npcs.

you can also walk up to temples for skill points, pretty sure i had to ninja multiple ones.

let me test the castrum one right now

No, I can’t -I tried and then did the event.
But yeah, test it.

Ayrilana.1396:

I just did world completion (well except for two remaining zones) all of last week. None of the skill point challenges are locked behind events and this is my 7th time doing world completion. I actually did Fireheart Rise last Friday and had zero issues.

Out of curiously, which skill point was locked behind an event?

South of Simurgh Timberland, I think. No it’s Noxious Castrum – the event is up on EU right now. It was behind walls and you needed to do the event (which luckily was just up) to destroy the walls. And then you had to kill a bunch of mobs.
Edit: And basically alot of skillpoints are locked behind events: Skillpoints at temples, behind champs etc. You can always try to stealth your way around but still it takes some effort.

Edit²: This also for phys – didn’t realize you two were asking the same question and wanted to answer his and quoted you..

Edit³: Maybe some nice people did the event before you got there – but I can assure you that there was no way to that SP without doing the event.

phys.7689:

you never have to wait for a skill point, if someone else is doing it, you can join in.
having to play your charachter for 3-5 hours before reaching maximum power level really isnt that crazy an idea.

Oh.. ok, so I was doing a skillpoint yesterday it was in fireheart rise and locked behind an event, I had to do 3/4 of the event before that skillpoint became accessible. that was about 15 mins.

Also when the mob had just been killed you have to wait around 30 s for it to be up again, so yeah, you have to wait.

On topic: I’m getting all my characters to 65 SP challenges – it’s okayish and with some I wanted to do that anyway. But it is grindy (6 characters for me) and given that a lot of us have suffered the trait system the past year it’s a further disappointment – of course it’s way less grindy than the trait system but I somehow want an acknowledgement that leveling characters under the current system is a pain in the kitten .

BunjiKugashira.9754:

Jana.6831:

Cool, get your thief to some underwater veterans or champs and look how it goes, then try any other profession.

I just did:

1. wait for enemy to attack
2. block
3. counter
4. auto-attack 2 times
   Repeat until dead. One of the most boring champ-fights I’ve ever had.

Did you try it with another class afterwards and was it harder?
I have no idea what mob you were fighting but usually it’s really hard to block in the right moment or: to counterattack with the block as the mobs usually stop attacking until you have used that skill – it works when fighting against multiple mobs otherwise it’s pure gamble and even if you get initative back it burns pretty quickly.

Nash.2681:

Hard to to find an easier way to fight vets/champs than grabbing a thief. Being able to block every single attack and dealing some nice dmg on every counter is pretty OP vs. mob AI.

Same to you.

I wasn’t complaining, I just can’t understand why people think that the new fabulous traits system came with the NPE.

Edit: And it should change with HoT/shortly before HoT – anet is aware of the issues – and expect this thread to be merged with the already existing NPE thread.

Trait system was introduced half a year before the NPE hit. We just celebrated its first birthday – it wasn’t sold to us as NPE back then but as “A lot of you missed the skill unlocking from GW1- take this instead”.

Dante.1763:

I do think outfits should not be able to be worn in PVP however as it does hide the armor class from being seen without clicking on that character.

Come on, you can’t be serious, right?
I honestly never LOOK at an opponent, I click on them, more benefit, believe me as they will have you half downed if you take your time to figure out what armor they’re wearing.
And in pvp you can even have a look at your opponent team before the match even starts.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Jana.6831:

I don’t really hate underwater combat but the underwater weapon skills of thieves are really poor, so I usually avoid it.

That’s ironic. I was thinking that Thieves actually have the best UW weapons of the 8 professions.

Cool, get your thief to some underwater veterans or champs and look how it goes, then try any other profession.

Right now we can decide whether we want 1 defensive or offensive or condition piece or 2 up to 18 – with that we could only go defensive with 6 pieces and offensive with another 12, probably as the OP didn’t mention anything about trinkets and underwater gear. You can also try to go hybrid or whatever, so I’m not really sure how anyone can think that a system like this would offer more build diversity.
And I’m fine with my all offensive stats, defensive stats would hold me back.

I don’t really hate underwater combat but the underwater weapon skills of thieves are really poor, so I usually avoid it.

Verilan.2963:

Jana.6831:

Verilan.2963:

Sometimes when I come on here, it is just a massive facepalm for me.

1 thief trying to defend ShaRejuv, claiming that is offers less hp/s than Mug, with some of the most ridiculous, ludicrous assumptions I’ve ever seen. Fox News would be impressed with your methods.

Good, then prove me wrong!

Verilan.2963:

Arenanet doesn’t hate thieves, if anything, they hate those who do not spec 06620 D/P or condi P/D

You know nothing about thieves, right?
06620 is as far from the meta as it can be.

Edit: Oh no, metabuild has a D/P 06620 build, so it really must be the meta!

I’m not going to delve into the statistical analysis of both realistic and potential healing to be gained comparatively from Mug or Shadows Refuge – Maugetarr outlined it very clearly. Furthermore, in the comparison of the two, Maugetarr was being realistic, or at least adding a “realistic factor” when adding a variable to the stealth/SR uptime (namely 50%), which you on the other hand, didnt in comparing Steal to SR.

SR/Stealth has the advantage of being completely player-controlled in regards to uptime – generally speaking, you decide when to stealth, how to stealth, and for how long. Therefor, for the most part, the achieved healing of SR is in the hands of you, the player.

Steal (assuming Mug + trickery line + Sleight of Hand) on the other hand, is far more unreliable in reality. It can be non-aegis blocked, invuln target, not hit (target stealthing at a lucky time), blinded, evaded etc. There is a very real chance, and often happens in fights, that you do not manage to land it every time, thereby not realising the full potential heal. So far, it has been assumed that it not only will hit every single time (ludicrous), but that you will also use it the moment it comes off cooldown.
THAT was one of my main gripes, and the source of my original statement about your assumptions, Jana.

And for the record, not only is there the (player-enemy synergy, as opposed to entirely player based) matter of if Steal hits, there is also the matter of if the player would use it. Steal, traited with Mug and full trickery, is a very potent, tactically important skill. You dont waste it around for nothing – optimally, and usually, you’ll save it (within reason) for interrupting important skills, like stomps, resses, high-damage skills, heals, that sort of stuff. Not mindlessly use it every single time it comes off cooldown.

Sorry if I seem grumpy, but the aforementioned comparison of MugSteal and SR was deeply flawed and out of touch with reality.

EDIT: And 06620 D/P has been a staple and (differing frequency at times) common thief build in both “outdoor” wvw as well as OS for the past 3 or so years!

Do me a favour and read the wall of texts I already wrote in this thread as everything I would answer now has already been said by me. Multiple times actually.

Maugetarr.6823:

Other people might not want to read through a big block of text.

For the life of me I cant figure out where the extra 2100 in the “2000*3 +2100” comes from. The most mug will produce is 5940 health in a minute. If you can stealth for 18-19 seconds total in a minute, you’ll get 5814-6197 health with shadow rejuvenation.

See, if you don’t want to read through awall of text don’t start a discussion.
I already told you: 5 sec initial healing in SR that everybody gets.
I want to fight, not sit in stealth.

Edit: And before you’re puzzled yet again: I also already told you why I left SR in that calculation.
Edit²: Scenario mug thief with trickery vs D/D Rej thief: Mug thief: 6000 heal in one minute: D/D Rej thief: 7920 heal in one minute. Both aren’t using shadow refuge and the D/D thief has got the highly likely scenario that he CnDs, stays stealthed for 3 seconds and then lands a backstab to CnD right after the revealed is gone and so on.
Happy now? Tell me again how hard it is to land a steal?

Maugetarr.6823:

Even if you arent nomalizing the heal over the over the cooldown which clears up the confusion here, you can’t get mug 4 times in a minute. The trait line increases the steal regeneration rate while SoH reduces the CD leading to a steal time of 35×0.8÷1.3=21.53. The heal from mug is 1980 without healing power, and is only 2160 if you have 300 in shadow arts. This is only 92 health per second. Since taking shadow refuge gives you 300 healing power from the line, the minimum healing healing you’ll get is 323 per second. With the base initiative pool you could maintain a 50% stealth uptime with no other utilities or traits, so we’ll use that as the maximum uptime (pistol 5, 2 leaps). So 323×0.5 =161.5. To see where the % uptime would yield the same average heal per second, we’ll rearrange to 92÷323×100=% uptime=28.5% uptime of stealth being the crossover point where it heals more than mug. Conflating the argument with shadow refuge (the utility) doesn’t have anything to do with the argument.

Tldr:
mug maxes out at 92 hps with SoH included
Shadows rejuvenation maxes out at 161.5 hps with no other traits or utilities (Assuming OH pistol so you’re not reliant on CnD for stealth)

Ok, so maybe we should make a new topic with all possibilities – traits, bloodlust or not if in wvw, buffs from allies, when a healing skill was used,what healing skill was used etc.
Thanks for the attempt to bring some facts into this. You’re right, it takes slightly longer than 20 s to steal with a full line of trickery and SoH, so it’s 3 steals (in the first minute) for thieves with a full line of trickery and 2 for thieves without anything in trickery. = 2000*3 +2100 = 8100 for trickery thieves, 2200*2 = 4400 +2100 = 6500 for 26600 thieves who also likely have Shadow Rejuvenation.
You guys complained that I was making an ideal situation of my mug thief but didn’t realize that I also made an ideal situation of my D/D 06620 thief. I rarely ever stay stealthed for full 15 seconds or for full 4 seconds, my CnD misses more often than I like, so I usually don’t get the 13k potential healing, I think 10350 is the best I can hope for (2 s stealthed for 5 times) and that isn’t that much more than the 8100 from mug with trickery and that’s my point.
The “health per second” is potential health per second, while Shadow Rejuvenation really heals per second, mug doesn’t, so I have to be stealthed to gain health with Shadow Rejuvenation, wheras I get my “full healing” with one skill (steal) with mug – it’s more risky to have to wait to heal, don’t you think?

And if you want to prove me wrong don’t write “Too long, didn’t read” makes no sense =)

Quadox.7834:

This MUST be a troll. Good one though, i am laughing hard

Yeah, you’re all confused,right? as you just can’t get why someone is coming with facts and not something someone else has told them.
Sorry to confuse you guys!

KillerKyle.1435:

The thing you cannot calculate for is conditions. Every class you face will output some condition and when u can clear a 5 sec burn that ticks for let’s say 500 damage per sec that’s 2500 health that SA just took out. And when you don’t run in SA let’s say a 26006 d/p you take the full brunt of that damage.

What hinders you to put 2 points in SA? That’s the condition removal- I was comparing Shadow rejuvenation to Mug as thieves either have the one or the other or both.

KillerKyle.1435:

Also the fact that you think a thief a)Hits every steal which is often not the case and b)that health gained is actually used which can be said for both sides but considering you stealth a lot more than you steal

Yes, but every thief does that and a thief without Shadow Rejuvenation has got the advantage that all heal he can get from SR is done within 5 secs, he doesn’t have to “sit” in stealth. I was comparing 2 ideal situations. <— (Edit: ) Not every CnD hits either, sometimes even 5+2 combo of D/P goes wrong. We can talk about situations that are less ideal, so steal misses 2 times, CnD misses 2 times – a D/D thief without mug would be dead then, a mug thief still has got enough initative to escape/CnD.

KillerKyle.1435:

so the health gained is ACTUALLY gained more when u stealth than steal. You just can’t calculate how Mug gives more health than SA.

Well, then calculate it? Sorry but I’m really certain my numbers are correct, so what you are doing is making assumptions/denying something without proof.

Verilan.2963:

Sometimes when I come on here, it is just a massive facepalm for me.

1 thief trying to defend ShaRejuv, claiming that is offers less hp/s than Mug, with some of the most ridiculous, ludicrous assumptions I’ve ever seen. Fox News would be impressed with your methods.

Good, then prove me wrong!

Verilan.2963:

Arenanet doesn’t hate thieves, if anything, they hate those who do not spec 06620 D/P or condi P/D

You know nothing about thieves, right?
06620 is as far from the meta as it can be.

Edit: Oh no, metabuild has a D/P 06620 build, so it really must be the meta!

Maugetarr.6823:

Mug can’t be used 4 times a minute. At best steal is on a 21ish second cooldown. Mug heals for 1980. I should not have used SR for Shadows Rejuvenation as it seems to have caused confusion.

It can, it’s 20 sec cooldown.
sec 1 mug, sec 20 mug, sec 40 mug, sec 60 mug = 4 times

Maugetarr.6823:

It seems that this has caused you to go from talking about shadows rejuvenation versis mug to shadow refuge versus mug.

What?
Yeah well,I was comparing these two traits – that’s legit, I think as most thieves use mug and call Shadow Rejuvenation OP

Maugetarr.6823:

Leaving shadow refuge out of this since it’s not adding to the comparison of the traits, if you keep stealth uptime in a fight at around 1/3 of the time, Shadows Rejuvenation will offer a greater heal per second (or minute if you prefer).

No, I think SR is really important and I know no thief who isn’t using it.
And without SR a SA thief wouldn’t work as it’s the main source of healing. That’s why it’s in the calculation. You don’t have enough inatiative as a D/P thief to stealth that many times, you can’t hit with CnD that many times to make up for the lack of SR.

Maugetarr.6823:

In addition to this, the assumptions made in this argument are that you steal exactly when it’s available while not attempting to stealth whenever possible.

The same goes with peoplecalling SA “OP” they make assumptions – it doesn’t work out like that in a fight.

Maugetarr.6823:

Including the trait that gives you an extra second of stealth, you can safely backstab after 3 seconds of regen and easily maintain 50% uptime of stealth. Moreover, if you miss the backstab window (either by choice or counterplay ) you can CnD again which will raise your hps since you don’t have to wait for revealed.

True, it’s about 1,5 k healing max each time, given that your CnD doesn’t miss -you know opponents can dodge. If talking about a D/D thief, the stealth time for D/P thieves is shorter (if using black powder only once).

Maugetarr.6823:

I’m not arguing that shadows rejuvenation is op, I’m pointing out that the potential healing it has in theory and practice is higher than that of mug.

No it isn’t, sorry. But I made a mistake in my calculation, that was why I came back to this thread:

SR heals: 2100
Mug in 1 min: 8800, with sleight of hand, without 6600

SA only D/x thief 5 times stealthed (+ SR)
Heal in SR: 7050 (insg)
5* (1 s) : 1650
5* (2 s) : 3300
5* (3 s) : 4950

Mug with sleight of hand and SR: 10900
D/x 5*2 s and SR: 10350
D/x 5*3 s and SR: 12000

Although pulses are a weird thing anyway, so sometimes I have 5 pulses when stealthed for 4 s, sometimes I have 4.

So even in the best scenario the max a D/D thief traited in SA would get is: 13650, that’s 2750 more than one with mug and sleight of hand would get, with the difference that the mug thief also does around 6k damage during that time (actually ~10 k damage if the poison isn’t cleansed – maybe I should use mug)

My point is that SA isn’t “OP” not even if you compare it to other thieve’s skills – I hope that point came across.

Edit: Made this calculation for a friend and had to cut the German parts out ;)

bigbobpataki.4796:

Lets suppose for a minute that your opinion isn’t shared by the majority of players. How would you possibly insure that every player would be happy with what they got out of the personal story?

Since everybody I know feels the same about that part of the story I can’t really pretend I’m in the minority and what does it matter anyway? You don’t need relationships anywhere. No matter whether hetero or gay, these guys are basically your friends and let’s be honest, they lack character/story to really be anything like friends, they’re just generated characters. I get that there are people who think that the lore is important but they make up their own stories as the original is lacking so much -and I’m fine with that- you don’t need a game to teach you things about life.

bigbobpataki.4796:

Even then, its Anet’s game. They can write the personal story however they want to. If you do not like that, nobody is forcing you to log in/p2p the personal story. Its their choice to write the personal story however they please.

No, I don’t play the personal story anyway – but I can voice my opinion which I just did. Sorry that this bothers you.

bigbobpataki.4796:

Whats exactly force fed? What would you do if you were in the developer’s shoes? You cant necessarily say that you’d have “no relationship” because you’d get blasted by people who’d want one.

Force fed: You can’t escape that story, it’s everywhere in LS2 and that’s plain annoying – there must be something else than this relationship, right? Yeah there is; an underlying relationship of a cat and a man.
And of course you can, these guys are basically strangers to my character and no stranger would tell me their whole life while we’re about to save the world- or if they did so, I would find them more than just a bit weird and rather stayed away from them.

Edit: Why not being smart about it and let people guess instead of shoving it in their face? Like the Braham Roxx story- it’s a bit weird as well but at least Ikind of have the choice to further think about it.

bigbobpataki.4796:

Call me ignorant, but I’ve only seen this issue raised on the forums. Should anet address this issue (and I can be wrong on this) based on what I think is a vocal minority of the forums?

Really? I know no one who isn’t annoyed by this force fed relationship.
If I had a choice none of the characters would have a relationship- it’s plain annoying and none of them is that liekable or has got that much character/story that one would wish him/her to “find the right one” anyway.

kimeekat.2548:

Every time I see a topic like this, it reminds me of the studies that showed women who talk for 30% to 50% of a discussion are perceived as completely dominating the conversation.

As long as you don’t say how many people took part in that discussion someone talking for 30-50% is dominating it.

This is one game out of the plethora of games out there that doesn’t act like the traditional 13-25 year old straight white male is its only audience and makes an effort to show traditionally underrepresented groups in positions of power.

Sure, that’s why there’s no non skimpy outfit for females and no skimpy outfit for males as this game “doesn’t cater the usual male 13-25 audience” ( are you serious?)

Leablo.2651:

Perma stealth is used without fall damage. The trait is situationally helpful but not definitive of what the build does (falling is done to enhance stealth, not stealth to enhance falling). Moving the fall damage effects to a skill wouldn’t change the possibility to perform any of these activities.

Kitten, is my english that bad?
I said “perma stealth thieves used it to troll us” and they stealh by jumping down from somewhere – they do it on purpose and they use that trait on purpose.
Moving it to a skill would be okay, i guess, better than make people using food for it.

Edit: Whatever you call “perma stealth” is unimportant I even said it in quotation marks the first time around -but it’s more fun to pretend to not get my point at all, right?

IndigoSundown.5419:

Jana.6831:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

fall damage traits have such a tiny niche, I’d like to see them transferred to gear, e.g. the snowfall runes and maybe a toy, e.g. kites and balloons

Well, what trait doesn’t have a tiny niche? It’s usual only suitable for one purpose/build – with exceptions but in the end it is all about the whole picture and that’s how it should be.

Just from Guardian, Radiance (current iteration): Justice is Blind, Renewed Justice, Radiant Power, Healer’s Retribution; Shimmering Defense; Inner Fire, Searing Flame and Blind Exposure are all generally useful to all Guardians, primarily because of their synergy with Virtue of Justice, a passive or active class mechanic that all Guards have (at least until Elite Spec).

Other professions and other lines have a mix of niche and more generally useful traits. The same is true of the new iteration — there’s a mix of general and niche traits. The issue comes in when niche traits are in the same line and tier — and falling and revive traits appear together in more than one profession. In at least one case, the third trait is also niche (Guardian, Honor).

The remaining traits in the line: Signer Mastery, Radiant Fire, A Fire Inside, Inscribed Removal, Powerful Blades and the 3 GM traits are all mores specific.

I said nothing differently – mug for example is a useful trait for all thieves, because we all steal and we all need power and it’s in the first line -I still don’t use it,because I serve a different purpose and found that all the niche traits are more important for me.
So what is the alternative to getting rid of falling damage traits? Food? Then you would die to conditions/not do enough damage in wvw, so it’s only good for pve. Same goes for sigils and runes – there’s no room for that in wvw.
I agree that all tiers should have enough options so people aren’t forced to take useless traits or forced into a play style they don’t want. But I wouldn’t get rid of that trait, or maybe merge healing and falling.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

fall damage traits have such a tiny niche, I’d like to see them transferred to gear, e.g. the snowfall runes and maybe a toy, e.g. kites and balloons

Well, what trait doesn’t have a tiny niche? It’s usual only suitable for one purpose/build – with exceptions but in the end it is all about the whole picture and that’s how it should be.

Leablo.2651:

I don’t like them in traits because it is a situational effect and traits are usually about defining the overall concept of the build, not what might be good in specific circumstances.

Not my cup of tea but at least back in the day “perma stealth” thieves used this to troll us, so they were contesting our wps and using the stealth “on fall” to escape us. And at least mesmers can use this trait as well, either if they want to port people in PvE or in WvW -no idea about the falling damage reduction of the other classes but that trait does define a build – just not mine and there should be several options in a tier, for thieves in the master tier of SA it’s all about group play (and one falling damage) -but nothing useful for another play style and that shouldn’t be. (I have no idea about the planned traits of other classes or other traitlines).

You can also blind your enemy with that (next outgoing attack misses) For that you port right on top of the enemy.

Maugetarr.6823:

I don’t know how you came to that conclusion. Mug gets you ~2k health, and let’s even round down to a 20 second steal. That’s 100hps at best. SR heals for~320 (including the healing power it gets right now ) a second while in stealth. If you maintain at least a little less than 1/3 uptime of stealth, SR comes out the clear winner in hps.

Alright, the conclusion:
In this one minute, I use as many CnD as I can -revealed included -I stay stealthed for around 2 secs every time (otherwise my chance of a backstab is gone, I’m actually mostly stealthed for around 1 sec) Shadow refuge heals around 420 per pulse for 5 secs, that no matter whether or not I’m traited in SA.
If I’m using SR (not the trait), I heal for ~420*5 = 2100 + 15*320 = 4800 together that’s 6900 -let’s say I’m also stealthed for 2 secs 5 times in this minute – that’s 5*320= 1600 -that’s 8500 in total. I have no interrupt, I don’t steal life.
You can use mug 4 times in this 1 min (~ 6k healing also SR = 2100 together 8100 healing. Even if you don’t use the trickery line it’s 6600 heal) This is wrong, see the Edit below.

Don’t ask me what exact scenario we agreed on when discussing this for hours – it’s been a while.

Edit: And whenever it’s numbers I make mistakes -anyway I have been in a lower level area when looking mug up- the actualheal is around 2200.
So it’s: 4* 2200 = 8800 also SR = 2100 together 10900 healing.
Even if you don’t use the trickery line it’s 8700 heal.

Kolly.9872:

So you’re saying that the only way you are winning your 1vsX is thanks to shadow rejuvenation? Well this is the reason this trait should go right now. That include the vast majority of self sustain trait every other class has

I’m running 06620 with shadow rejuvenation.
A friend ofmine recently annoyed me how I would be a bad thief and would never become a better thief because I use that trait, just like you guys did – so I calculated how much mug heals /per minute and how much shadow rejuvenation heals per minute, given the thief has got sleight of hands mug heals 1k more than shadow rejuvenation. So if you guys say that that trait is too strong you should first remove mug and the lower cooldown of steal.
And yeah, I’m aware that people use both – I’m not one of them.

Simple solution, which I would like a lot: Make the dry top and silverwastes currencies store in your account wallet. I would still carry around lockpicks and maybe shovels but everything more than that is a turnoff and I’ve been to the silverwastes maybe twice – because of all this clutter. It’s not just about the space it takes away but also this stuff destroying the system of how I arrange things.

Whatnever.6049:

Just thought the same!
Simply get Cloaked in shadow back in Master traits, ANET please.
Its a huge Damage Buff and taking the survivability away from D/D

Or at least put something useful in the master tier. But as it looks I will just get a master trait to get a grandmaster trait and that’s sad.

mango.9267:

I must not be playing the same game as everyone else because these changes are kittening amazing for every kind of thief.

You probably just had a different playstyle.

Otokomae.9356:

When are you going to need to blind anyone? CnD + Backstab is going to be back up to early beta levels!

You have no idea what a beauty that trait is. Actually it’s my favourite trait.
The first I noticed how it works was in queensdale while farming butter in the cave with the gazillion of bandits. There’s this veteran bandit who puts down a keg of explosive powder- you really should dodge that, unless you cnd when he puts that keg down, you can just stand there, wait until that thing explodes and backstab. To me that trait is really important when it comes to D/D as I need to get close to my opponents to CnD. It’s nice to have all these offensive traits but as it looks I have to say goodbye to one of my crucial defensive traits. EVEN MORE GLASS HORRAY!

Hey anet, I don’t need any trait in the Master line of Shadow arts – and yeah, I’m certain that I don’t need them – all of the traits in that tier are for group play – but I am a solo roamer.
I’m currently running IV VI XI in SA, so the first 2 are adepts and with the new system I wouldn’t be able to run that build anyway, so I hoped you would’ve put one of them in master so I can still be a happy D/D thief. But for some reason an adept trait now becomes a grandmaster trait.

Draknar.5748:

Well, in PvE I agree Ele is the way to go for a good player. I’ve seen plenty of bad eles that die constantly, so there’s definitely a skill to it.

Thanks – I have no clue of my ele and I usually don’t die with her, she’s zerker in pve.
I was 1 vs 1 my friend, who plays D/D cele ele far longer than me, the other day and we quit of boredom after 15 mins as neither of us died/was hurt – and I really have no clue of that class. “Faceroll and call it skill”

Einlanzer.1627:

Jana.6831:

Einlanzer.1627:

tramwajarz.2369:

Einlanzer.1627:

The way it should work IMO is that healing power and boon duration should have better synergy than they do currently so that, while you can’t make a 100% healer per se, you should be able to make a close to 100% effective support build. Only the Guardian can come anywhere close to that currently and even then it’s dubious.

and what 100% support build does better than e.g. normal build traited and slotted with appropriate utilities?

That’s the point. Almost all support currently is tied up with offense, which is weird. Support should be better distributed and balanced so that it would be feasible to make effective non-DPS builds.

I see it being 4 soft roles (or specialties) – dps, mitigation, boons, control. You should at baseline be good at any 2 of those roles, with some ability to hybridize into more and end up with at least a moderately effective character. A support character would be someone who was heavily focused on healing and boons, or healing and control.

Granted, it would be difficult to balance, but they could do a much better job than they have to this point.

But I like to be able to do everything with any class I’m using?
I like to solo stuff, I like to heal, support, kill without looking at someone in my party saying “YO; DO YOUR JOB!!”

What I’m talking about would not disrupt that. If you like to do a little of everything, then you’re hybridizing your build in the game currently instead of focusing too much on any one area. You’d still be able to do that in what I proposed above.

No, the trick is that I don’t have to spec into anything to do everything. I’m pure dps and can still heal, still give boons, still support – and I think that’s great.

Einlanzer.1627:

tramwajarz.2369:

Einlanzer.1627:

The way it should work IMO is that healing power and boon duration should have better synergy than they do currently so that, while you can’t make a 100% healer per se, you should be able to make a close to 100% effective support build. Only the Guardian can come anywhere close to that currently and even then it’s dubious.

and what 100% support build does better than e.g. normal build traited and slotted with appropriate utilities?

That’s the point. Almost all support currently is tied up with offense, which is weird. Support should be better distributed and balanced so that it would be feasible to make effective non-DPS builds.

I see it being 4 soft roles (or specialties) – dps, mitigation, boons, control. You should at baseline be good at any 2 of those roles, with some ability to hybridize into more and end up with at least a moderately effective character. A support character would be someone who was heavily focused on healing and boons, or healing and control.

Granted, it would be difficult to balance, but they could do a much better job than they have to this point.

But I like to be able to do everything with any class I’m using?
I like to solo stuff, I like to heal, support, kill without looking at someone in my party saying “YO; DO YOUR JOB!!”

fuzdragonwind.7219:

about thief: ah yeah the important shadow refuge, vital in vinewrath…

SR does heal ~420 per pulse (second) for 5 seconds.

fuzdragonwind.7219:

signet of malice if self heal, and yes it great.

You were talking about Assassin’s reward, so I assumed you didn’t know about that skill

fuzdragonwind.7219:

blash finishers are anyone, thiefs can perform a blast finisher pretty often though yes. just i can’t rely on a water field in a random zerg or off alone by myself.

Thieves can spam blast finishers like no other class and yes you have to rely on others for a waterfield.
I “heal” people in no matter what scenario with my daggerstorm as they will rally when the mob they attacked is dead – works (nearly) every time. You just have to know when to use it. Ironically I almost never use Shadow refuge or Blinding powder on myself, I use it to rez others.

fuzdragonwind.7219:

i trip over myself in general with thief, i’m scared to say anything.

Yeah, sorry, favourite class and stuff, so I want people to know how great thieves are. And like I said, my zealot ring did make a difference healing wise. Btw, I heal people for ~6 – 10k with one waterfield and my blast spam. And I did so in pug wvw zergs on my first server². On the server I’m now I’m mostly spamming poison fields. I like to run with the zerg but I really shouldn’t as a glass cannon thief, so I wanted to become a zerg waterfield healing ele and learned that they’re about as “tanky” as my thief and well I can either heal my zerg with ele waterfields or destroy the healing of the enemy zerg with my poison thief – the result is about the same and I’m better on thief. The zerg then gets a daggerstorm on top of that though, just to make sure. Sometimes I then also daggerstorm through a waterfield nearby and heal my allies with that.

Edit: ² – I have been able to fully run with the zerg back in the day, not really possible since last april anymore although it became better with the stability nerf for whatever reason. But I don’t really have the patience to run with a zerg anymore, so wheras my first server knew I was around and spamming blast my new server(s) didn’t/don’t. We had the rule to concentrate on the tag so all skills went to the tag. I didn’t randomly fire my blasts, although I can spam them, I was likely hitting each waterfield at least once. That is another argument why I don’t blast spam anymore (there’s no “concentrate all skills on tag” on the server I am now) and we hardly have any eles around in our pugs anyway.

Edit³: Trying to unravel potentially confusing grammar.

All of this works in PvE as well, it’s just not really needed – I still blast each waterfield I see though – no matter where.

Eponet.4829:

I’m saying that Power/Precision/Condition Damage (Rampager and Sinister) should do as much as damage as Power/Precision/Ferocity on average. 3 offensive stats vs 3 offensive stats.

Pretty sure it already does, just slower and there’s the cap.
Problem with allof this is that pve and wvw are combined and condis are already op in wvw since last april, so raise the condi cap in both areas and wvw goes boom (and I condi, I always wanted to become the most annoying condi thief there is but problem is I like power a lot better).

Alright,if you guys are on EU, msg me in game, I’ll port you. to
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Long_Way_Around

If you need tips on how to do it, I might give them as well, just ask.