Guild Wars 2

We have a ton of smart folks on this forum. Let’s open it up for discussion, since without a resolution to bandwaggoning, we are stuck perpetually in Dante’s first circle (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_ ).

I think it’s reasonable to say that most avid fans of WvW would prefer a close matchup each week vs a steamroll. It leads to greater attachment of the game, a sports-esque feeling of contributing to your “team,” win or lose, and engagement that even when you’re not playing, you’re checking the score while at work.

What then do you think will fix the issue of bandwaggoning. No remake of factions, server reset, mergers or linking will resolve issues with this much-beloved game mode until we find a solution.

So how do we do it?

My thoughts are you raise the cost of transfers to $50 real money, not gems, and then hard cap all servers at X. Once X is reached, a server is closed until someone transfers off. No exceptions (yes, even if only half your guild managed to transfer). Those over the X amount are removed from the server and given the choice of other servers. Account history/seniority determines the cut off.

Want to be in Tier 1 (not that that matters anymore, but perhaps this will show others)? Recruit and power your way up. Of course the glicko will have to be made more responsive, so that a strong push yields rewards.

Any other ideas?

Because this is the core of the problem.

Cecilia.5179:

I’m not sure that paywalls are a good move. Most people don’t want to pay more than the price of the game to change environments, and the people who do probably have lots of money to spend.
Also, link 1 shows that manually lowering the pop cap of all linked servers doesn’t mean anything when the high population servers just sit there at super full and one server can’t compete because it is less full than the tier above it.
Link 2 is Anet’s solution to this
Link 3 shows a weakness in linked vs unlinked servers creating population imbalance. However, it did shake up T1 so that’s not entirely bad, and BG and TC may not be trying right now.
I think a bigger problem is the Glicko wall that separates the bottom two servers from the servers above it. They have fallen so far that nothing short of folding them into t3 servers can save them.

Well that’s the whole point. Capitalize on player’s attachment to their “main account” and let them rationalize whether it’s easier to just buy a new account. But then you have to go through the hassle of levelling up.

The point being: It should give you pause before you jump.

That, coupled with hard server caps, say 2,500 as mentioned above, and those over the cap are pushed out based on first-come, first-served principle.

You are booted out and want to be Tier 1? Roll up you sleeves, recruit, and make that push.

Meanwhile , Anet gets significant capital from WvW transfers that it invests that capital back into WvW.

My solution is:

• Raise transfer costs to $50 each time. No gems. Real money.
• Cap servers that are full. No matter. This will take a long time to see parity, but every time Anet caves, it just reinforces the “vocal minority” thing.

I’m even willing to let transfer fees in gems, since it would take a couple weeks to get that $$$, and hopefully make people think twice about random jumping.

Clownmug.8357:

What specifically are the problems with one up, one down? I don’t remember what was said in the 1000 other threads.

For NA specifically, population disparity between tiers.

For EU, not so much.

Cecilia.5179:

You can’t beat bandwagoning. It is a psychological fact. You can take actions to stop it from getting out of hand. For example, you can lock servers that have too much incoming or outgoing traffic.

They tried that.

This is what they got:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/About-Full-Server-Status-And-Guilds

And then you get this:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Linked-Worlds-Transfer-Restrictions

And then, inevitably, this:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/How-is-this-helping-balance

I could add a dozen different links all saying the same thing, but you get the idea.

Did this work for ESO?

If it did, why are you playing GW2?

Jeknar.6184:

Jayne.9251:

I can’t speak for everyone, but I’d be perfectly fine losing by a tiny margin. It would mean that next week, adjust your strat, you’d have that 33% chance of winning. It would engage more players and solidify the need for team vs individual. It would give meaning to wins, which are meaningless now.

The average player these days don’t care about all that. It’s just win or nothing. That’s why badwagoners exist in the first place and nobody want to try uphill battles at the lower tiers.

Until players themselves want a more uphill battle, NOTHING you, me or anyone can suggest in terms of alliances, ladders, server reboots, etc., will resolve this issue.

It’ll just be more of the same, with hundreds of posts on the forum complaining about it.

Any changes to make this game great rests with the player base. Not Anet.

Coyote.7031:

Jayne.9251:

This won’t solve anything. It will alienate the loyalists, cause chaos for a couple of months, then be stuck with same issue.

You need to solve bandwaggoning.

You can’t stop the bandwagon. It exists because people don’t want balance. A balanced WvW would mean your server has a 33% chance to actually win each week. That means a 67% to lose every week. Ask yourself do you want to lose 67% of the time by a tiny margin? No? Well that’s balanced!

And that’s not the only reason people bandwagon. I jumped on so I could do EoTM as green and level alts, but Anet totally got me on that one removing XP. With reward tracks I don’t care win or lose because as long as I have 100% participation, I get ticks. So that’s a good change. Baggies are nice, but there are better places to farm rewards like that.

I can’t speak for everyone, but I’d be perfectly fine losing by a tiny margin. It would mean that next week, adjust your strat, you’d have that 33% chance of winning. It would engage more players and solidify the need for team vs individual. It would give meaning to wins, which are meaningless now.

Crapgame.6519:

YWhat matters is what you, your team, or guild does. This isn’t rocket science.

You have pvp for that.

I wish they’d found a way to letting guest servers keep their names. Think it would help with the community identity. And red = enemy, it’s not confusing.

VaaCrow.3076:

Coopa.8937:

VaaCrow.3076:

Coopa.8937:

VaaCrow.3076:

Um, I don’t feel like this at all, I love server linking and what it’s done to wvw as does my guild, it’s linked us with similar servers which contain like minded people. Sure, we don’t fight vs the t1 server but who cares, we never wanted to anyway.

As for anet listening, they removed Desert bl, the only new wvw map since eotm , thats a very large step backwards for them to take given that it was done just to please players who did not like the map. i think it’s pretty clear that the devs do listen, it may just be that certain ideas don’t resonate with them, like destroying existing servers

What server are you/your guild on if you don’t mind me asking? With all due respect, I’m sure it’s not one of the bottom tiers that, as I said, has been steamrolled every single week for months on end; this would account for some bias in your opinion. Realistically, I don’t understand this whole server pride thing to be honest. I’d much rather have enjoyable battles with comparable servers on a daily basis than be able to say “I’m from GoM, and we get clobbered regardless of the matchup”. To your point about the Desert BLs, it’s essentially the same thing as this. They tried something, the community revolted, and ANet had to back pedal or face the consequences. What’s any different this time around, other than the fact that rather than taking the easy route and going back to what was, they’d have to try something new.

I’m from gunnars hold, and last server linking we got stomped on alot, this time not so bad. and server pride is a big thing for alot of people on gunnars. Before the server link, we were being stomped on every week lots of guilds left us and such. This linking has been excellent and i feel like when you guys post on the forum saying “most people don’t like this thing” you forget to take into account you cannot know what other people think and it is wrong for you to speak for them.

I mean… the posts speak for themselves. If that many people were in favour of the server links, why don’t we see threads of them defending the idea? A quick glance at the forums finds the opposing threads outnumber the in favour ones by a large margin.

People who are happy don’t generally flock to the forums, they are a place for the vocal minority to throw their opinions around to garner attention. Anet should just have a poll " do you think server linking is a success, do you wish for it to continue?"

The result will end arguments in these threads.
WvW is hardly being destroyed, they are pouring constant work into it now. sure, its taken four years, and sure there will be mistakes along the way, but they are striving the improve this game mode. The least you could do is try to be more constructive/positive about what they can/are able to do. ~No change is going to resonate positively with 100% of the wvw players.

This is why I love the polls.

CrimeMaker.8612:

Jayne.9251:

CrimeMaker.8612:

Jayne.9251:

This won’t solve anything. It will alienate the loyalists, cause chaos for a couple of months, then be stuck with same issue.

You need to solve bandwaggoning.

Jayne, How exactly will this cause bandwaggoning? you are starting of with 9 servers I think there is enough population to fill each server 80% full once all those servers are 80% full you open 3 more server or raise the population cap for each server.

Are you saying people cannot transfer once they pick? They’re stuck with that choice? If so, can do that now.

Everyone will get 2 free transfers after the kaboom to get with their family/friends/guilds and etc and after transfers should only open when they introduce 3 new servers or raise the pop cap for the server thats doing poorly in a matchup

Yeah that’s not going to work, if you’ve read this forum long enough.

Still doesn’t explain how you defeat the bandwagoners.

CrimeMaker.8612:

Jayne.9251:

This won’t solve anything. It will alienate the loyalists, cause chaos for a couple of months, then be stuck with same issue.

You need to solve bandwaggoning.

Jayne, How exactly will this cause bandwaggoning? you are starting of with 9 servers I think there is enough population to fill each server 80% full once all those servers are 80% full you open 3 more server or raise the population cap for each server.

Are you saying people cannot transfer once they pick? They’re stuck with that choice? If so, can do that now.

This won’t solve anything. It will alienate the loyalists, cause chaos for a couple of months, then be stuck with same issue.

You need to solve bandwaggoning.

Raise the cost to transfer to $50. Cap servers. Stick to it.

Link.1049:

Can we reevaluate having arrow cart damaged nerfed? For the cost and the amount of supply it takes to build they should do more damage than an ele can do with their call down fire trick. A single elementalist is more effective spamming one button than 3 ac’s now.

A single teammate spamming a shield generator on you while you use that single sup AC, will get rid of that pesky Ele pretty quickly.

RodOfDeath.5247:

Uh oh….T1 is unhappy anet. We need a red post stat!

Or open up all the servers cos guilds stuck, NO FAIR, then eat popcorn while threads about Anet DO SOMETHING about BALANCE pop up predictably (look at current front page, lol).

Jeknar.6184:

briggah.7910:

Aenaos.8160:

WvW fixed?
——————————————————————————————————

yup, we got the /facepalm emote now.. all is saved!!

At least we can show our indignation now.

Yes, but is it righteous?

What’s interesting about this thread is that longtime WvWers get it. The ones complaining are pve players.

Extreme.8350:

Jayne.9251:

Extreme.8350:

Soon.5240:

People defending Towers and Keeps?

I DEMAND that Anet put an end to this immediately!

Edit: Let me temper my response by adding that it would be nice if we actually got rewards for defending…..

people who use ac on 5 players is just wasting everyones time
not actually doing anything. yes it would be more fun without walls defently.
the server we fight they avoid all pvp. Unless they have 5x more players they gank.
If we have a big enough zerg to kill them they just run away all of them.
its BOOORING. atleast if there was no walls we could do something.
They win the point game good for them but i dont care about it.

Did you want them to just stand there eating popcorn while you and four friends bashed down the gate?

If you don’t like ACs, don’t try to flip objectives. Go find your fights out in the field.

Problem solved.

Its not solved because they dont exist.
Except for a few people which run full bunker ele or stealth condi theif which shoot you couple of times hide and run away there is nothing to fight.

You’re not looking hard enough.

Heibi.4251:

sephiroth.4217:

Anet plays WvW from time to time, it’s a good thing and not a bad thing.

We need them to play WvW to make relevant WvW fixes.

It’s also good to spike Anet tags.

Yes, play, but to claim for a server goes beyond fixing things.

They don’t get any super magical powers that any other guild claiming a keep would get.

I don’t see the problem.

I agree with Seph, I’m happy to see them in game and active. I’d be happier if they spent more time in the lower tiers though. Top tiers don’t really give an accurate reflection of overall health.

Extreme.8350:

Soon.5240:

People defending Towers and Keeps?

I DEMAND that Anet put an end to this immediately!

Edit: Let me temper my response by adding that it would be nice if we actually got rewards for defending…..

people who use ac on 5 players is just wasting everyones time
not actually doing anything. yes it would be more fun without walls defently.
the server we fight they avoid all pvp. Unless they have 5x more players they gank.
If we have a big enough zerg to kill them they just run away all of them.
its BOOORING. atleast if there was no walls we could do something.
They win the point game good for them but i dont care about it.

Did you want them to just stand there eating popcorn while you and four friends bashed down the gate?

If you don’t like ACs, don’t try to flip objectives. Go find your fights out in the field.

Problem solved.

Don’t use someone else’s build. What works for them, may not work for you. Learn your class by doing. There are plenty of roamers out there that will give you fights. Dying is not a big deal if you learn each time, adjust, then find what fits you.

Here’s the thing. Build 4-5 Omegas in lords before the night blob arrives. When they come with their golem hoard, jump in one and fire off rockets from the top of the keep walls.

They break in? Whirl and purée the non golem players into a bloody mess as they come through the breach.

It may not stop them, but you’ll have a blast melting the 11111 crowd.

And if all five of you jump in a golem? You might just be able to hold them off. Plus you will deny them supply if they do flip it.

Bonus points for server mate that spams shield generator on gate/wall/you as you nuke from above.

Sigh.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/About-Full-Server-Status-And-Guilds/first#post6233386

Nuzt.7894:

Remember Golem week, that worked out well for them.

That’s honestly what this poll and the last one feels like.

Jeknar.6184:

WvW players just hate everything, they will just hate it like they hate everything else.

After seeing some of the responses from the pve crew on stuff like GoB and crafting stations in WvW, I began to see the rants here from WvW folks as mild in comparison. Did you read what some of those guys wrote? Temper tantrums.

Also NO! to the OP. I hate EoTM maps.

DoomKnightMax.6592:

Jayne.9251:

Heh. Perspective is everything.

When I was new to WvW, I had a thief do the same thing. Over and over.

Turns out he thought I put up a good fight and didn’t want it to end.

We wound up going for a picnic on quaggans island, and I made a new friend.

For the OP: if I don’t want to fight, I just /sit and let them kill me. Usually gets the message across doing it just once. If you keep fighting back, they’re likely assuming you are enjoying it too. Next time don’t automatically assume someone’s trying to be a jerk. Talk to them. They may think you fight well.

Or…or…hear me out. He thought you were a laaaaaayyyddeeee and being the ERPer he is, swan dove into what he saw as “Thee perfect opportunity”.

Naw. There was none of that.

*bursts bubble.

Heh. Perspective is everything.

When I was new to WvW, I had a thief do the same thing. Over and over.

Turns out he thought I put up a good fight and didn’t want it to end.

We wound up going for a picnic on quaggans island, and I made a new friend.

For the OP: if I don’t want to fight, I just /sit and let them kill me. Usually gets the message across doing it just once. If you keep fighting back, they’re likely assuming you are enjoying it too. Next time don’t automatically assume someone’s trying to be a jerk. Talk to them. They may think you fight well.

Are you kidding me? NO!

Best thing they ever introduced to game. Anything that stalls the mindless ktrain.

https://youtu.be/A8yjNbcKkNY

Synosius.9876:

na does not want your server full of perma stealth condi thieves either.

Ah, you just CC them once, then they freeze like deer in the headlights.

Jeknar.6184:

Yes, sure, make it easier for blobs to take over towers/keeps by letting them completely bypass walls/gates.

Unless you give me some flak cannons, your idea is absurd.

….and only if the player drops like a rock if hit once.

Leaa.2943:

Dear god, what the hell is wrong with people. Why would anyone even remotely consider voting on this? Are you not really aware of what this will mean? Like how are you gonna defend against a huge zone blob when you can not take down their rams, cattas, trebs? I mean this is tricky as it is anyway when outnumbered, so how on earth do you guys feel that this is a great idea?

This wont help defenders for the easy reason that if you have to use siege to defend, it means your side is undermanned. And the attacking side will be more powerful due to the repair hammer AND it wont stop them from taking our siege down for the simple reaso, that we are not immune to the insane amount of damage a blob throw at the siege, so repair hammer for defending side will be utterly useless!

So by all mean, all you guys that voted for this. How were you thinking? How are you even considering this to be a good thing?

Jayne.9251:

Najten.2418:

perseco.8321:

Buy Some Apples.6390:

But yes, I too think the message should be sent to everyone, not just those in WvW at a certain unknown time.

Terrible idea. WvWers don’t want the PvE kittens voting on WvW features when they have little to no idea what the actual impact will be.

Cuz people not playing WvW actively this very week/month will most certainly have no clue about WvW and thus don’t deserve to know there’s a poll going on; and every PvE:er is totally going to go in and vote on something that has 0 effect on their own gameplay just to be mean. I strongly doubt that.

Sometimes something as simple as a smile can give you away.

If you don’t write for a living, you should.

Asclepios.4295:

I am offended by the number of X you use here. I formally ask the moderators to ensure no more than 3 in a row are used.

Three has its own meaning. Naughty!

Najten.2418:

perseco.8321:

Buy Some Apples.6390:

But yes, I too think the message should be sent to everyone, not just those in WvW at a certain unknown time.

Terrible idea. WvWers don’t want the PvE kittens voting on WvW features when they have little to no idea what the actual impact will be.

Cuz people not playing WvW actively this very week/month will most certainly have no clue about WvW and thus don’t deserve to know there’s a poll going on; and every PvE:er is totally going to go in and vote on something that has 0 effect on their own gameplay just to be mean. I strongly doubt that.

Sometimes something as simple as a smile can give you away.

Sadly, no.

Imagine a troll built siege capped map.

I don’t think people are thinking repair hammers through. There’s too many opportunities to abuse the mechanic, sadly.

apharma.3741:

Jayne.9251:

Jeknar.6184:

I don’t think I ever seen someone shoot mortars except when you are at south of their bay and they are too scared to fight and the two cannons are already manned. I didn’t even knew burn on mortar had changed because of that.

I train our guys to jump on mortars first because they’re so often overlooked, even by the enemy.

When ogrewatch was being attacked last night I asked someone to hop on the keep mortar to help us out, I got a PM asking “What mortar?”

Can you come and train our newbies?

It’s easy. Just show them. Turn the mortar, for example into lords garri, and show them where it hits.

Turn the one on NE garri wall inward and show them it hits NW gate.

Seeing is believing

As for EB: Show them how each mortar hits at the keeps — every single one of them can be turned to use in multiple ways. Best ones are in the towers tho

I like jumping up and down on the wall while three friends below perpetually use shield generators on me.

I might even do that AND man an AC and nuke them, while staying safe.

*wink

Reh.5986:

Jayne.9251:

There’s a banker on every map. Just right click the guild guy to get your personal bank.

Afaik this doesn’t let you access crafting mats. Which need cleaned out every once in awhile.

It does. Or did, last time I used it.

Jeknar.6184:

I don’t think I ever seen someone shoot mortars except when you are at south of their bay and they are too scared to fight and the two cannons are already manned. I didn’t even knew burn on mortar had changed because of that.

I train our guys to jump on mortars first because they’re so often overlooked, even by the enemy.

There’s a banker on every map. Just right click the guild guy to get your personal bank.

If no one bows before the fight, bowing after when your enemy is staked is a sign of respect… As in “good fight”.

Timing is everything.

There’s no hypocrisy in anything I posted. Go back and re-read.

If you still don’t get it, then I’m afraid you never will.

swellercross.3974:

The problem is people with lots of cash (real money) moving server’s whenever they want,which i reckon will never stop cause everyone wants easy gaming,domination spoon feed etc,etc , no server loyalty.

It’s why transfers should cost $50, minimum. Even someone with lots of cash will pause doing it too often at that price. And farming gold will take MUCH longer, again give pause about server hopping.

X T D.6458:

Jayne.9251:

X T D.6458:

Jayne.9251:

DeWolfe.2174:

It’s why I’ve always said that when balance goes out the window, the best remedy is greater mobility. Players will balance themselves out as the map queues are still the end all, be all.

What we needed was simply less tiers and new labels.

Oh the irony of you talking balance after so many posts demanding T1 be opened up.

The last 2 posters have a point, and like I mentioned above, the important thing is players are able to move where and when they want without anet artificially deciding to micromanage. Server stacking, and whatever drama or issues that occur that causes an exodus will always go on, so players unhappy in one place have to be able to move on somewhere else. Things like queues, and boring matchups also cause players to seek out another environment to play on. If people are constantly facing restrictions they will get annoyed and simply stop playing.

Boring matchups are caused by population imbalances where one server owns and the others have zero chance. That loses players far more quickly than full status.

If people are getting face rolled simply because of population inequities that has nothing to do with actual skill, they will get annoyed and simply stop playing.

Unhappiness with a current matchup is one of the reasons people transfer somewhere else, and why they should be able to do so, with reasonable measures of course, we cant let one server have 1 million people on it for example. People transfer for a variety of reasons, such as desire for a new playing environment, chance to play with friends/family/guilds, unhappiness with matchups, etc etc. Most are not interested in stacking servers, or blowing out the competition. I have never heard anyone say they want to win by 100k every week and blob over 10 people all day.

Population imbalances can also occur for a variety of reasons, what hurts the playerbase more is the feeling that there is nowhere to go and no chance to recover. Anet’s role is to create an equal starting point for all servers in terms of mechanics, the rest is up to the players.

We had free reign transfers for three years and it created the mess that is NA now.

And when Anet steps in to try to regulate it by making full servers who are winning by a large margin, there’s a dozen threads that pop up about opening up T1.

You make vague assertions about population imbalances without any fact or context.

All I know is this happens when players regulate themselves (they don’t, they stack) and then they come complaining on the forums.

No ones going to say “hey! Let’s stack to T9!” will they?

When they should. Spread out, prove your worth.

Or yknow keep stacking Tier 1 because nobody has the population to compete and everyone gets steamrolled and quits.

Tier 1 is where guilds go to die.

X T D.6458:

Jayne.9251:

DeWolfe.2174:

It’s why I’ve always said that when balance goes out the window, the best remedy is greater mobility. Players will balance themselves out as the map queues are still the end all, be all.

What we needed was simply less tiers and new labels.

Oh the irony of you talking balance after so many posts demanding T1 be opened up.

The last 2 posters have a point, and like I mentioned above, the important thing is players are able to move where and when they want without anet artificially deciding to micromanage. Server stacking, and whatever drama or issues that occur that causes an exodus will always go on, so players unhappy in one place have to be able to move on somewhere else. Things like queues, and boring matchups also cause players to seek out another environment to play on. If people are constantly facing restrictions they will get annoyed and simply stop playing.

Boring matchups are caused by population imbalances where one server owns and the others have zero chance. That loses players far more quickly than full status.

If people are getting face rolled simply because of population inequities that has nothing to do with actual skill, they will get annoyed and simply stop playing.