Guild Wars 2

Good players also get confused sometimes even now.

Arenanet is gonna make illusions have an offhand finally.
Plus the might stacking trait is coming in with autoattack on gs.

Of course, this wouldn’t be your playstyle all match coz u dont do much dmg, but its perfect when u r out of CDs or u go defensive for a bit.

They could even add some different skills to the illusions like blurred frenzy on sword, mirror blade and phantasmal berserker animation for gs(but no phantasm would spawn and the mirror blade would only deal like 3 dmg, no boons), or dodge.

IMO they shold decrease their durations. Blind/Aegis should be actived when u see a big attack coming in not 20seconds before. This mainly affects aegis
Should also make cast times quicker on some abilities with these

You have no idea about balance therefore you shouldn’t post complaints after playing the game for 3 days.

MadVisions.4529:

tanky ish specs like dd ele, cele engi who had 50% uptime easy… (+60% in teamfight from CtA)
vigor indeed needed a tonedown but in the side of the skills that providing it, not yolo easywork lets nerf to 50%… guess anet didnt think about squishy specs who actually RELY on evades 0-24 to not get killed while above mentioned ones just gonna take a big sigh and pretend like noothing happened.

Not true at all!
D/D eles have 100%+ uptime (renewing stamina every 5sec for 5sec without boon duration+all cantrips 6s/each) Thus they don’t even run Sigil of Energy which would be a great fit for them with their Evasive Arcana trait.

They should not make it exclusive to crafting because it’s really boring. Maybe a Mystic Forge recipe, that costs around the same but less hassle. Should also give PvPers or WvWers a chance to get them. What PvP lacks the most is still rewards; people rather farm event trains to death because it has goal at least.

Mesmers plays could be next level if their effects, health didn’t give them away.
You can, as a mesmer, turn off autoattacking and attack at the rate you illusions do, run in straigth lines to look like a clone. Stow your weapon after coming out of stealth, like illusions do.

Unfortunately this is not worth doing because people instantly see that you are the mesmer as soon as they look at your boons, conditions, health, or even boosters.
Please, since illusions don’t deal more than 3 damage anyway make them look like they have the same health, boons, boosters and condis as the real mesmer. The illusions would not have more hp, they would just look like they lost less hp after taking some dmg. Currently an illusion loses 1/3 of its health from 800dmg, so it gives them away instantly they dont even have to die.

There would still be plenty of counterplay left: looking for animations, dodges, keeping clones’s and mesmer’s position in mind, killing clones, etc.

Make acting a thing!

StickerHappy.8052:

Anyone can provide some tips on how to fight d/p thieves with shatter mesmers?

Tips are really appreciated, but duels will be more helpful. I was planning to do an event for the mesmer guild, like a practice session against thieves.

Method 1: wait until imbalance patch.

Method 2: Interrupt their heartseeker into smoke field, even with blink+F3 combo.

Always use your stuff preemptively, by the time they teleport onto u its too late already. Dodge when get into teleport range, etc.

at the end of your dodge roll you can blink to max range, they might eff up thier steal, or just spam your dodges invulns,stealths consecutively to make them waste steal. Best case scenarion is you dodge into stealth and they use it with no target and goes to full cd.

F2 can remove their blinds in middle of phantasm summon or knockback

U can try to use gs3 against stealthed thieves( u can predict their movement) if you dont get into combat you know they went another way or they dodged)

Sometimes after you immob them you might better be dodgin instead of burst coz they can steal u defensively. or u can go invuln when u suspect a steal.

Try to camp on anti-teleport spots and range them. there are many spots like this you have to jump to get to one usually

Can try to hide behind illusions against shadow shot, but against shortbow standing near illusions means taking double dmg most likely

Mostly it matters on whether u can land ur burst on them

Venoms:
All the thief venoms don’t normally get applied by non-damaging skills. However, they consume a venom charge whenever used on dodging/blocking/invulnverable foes, and the venom doesn’t affect them of course but you lose your venoms. This affects skills and traits like aoe blinds(blinding power,caltrops,infiltrator’s arrow, Choking gas pulses)

Cloak and dagger+Steal+Mug
Teleporting in in order to land a cloak and dagger during the cast time results in instant reveal.(this is odd because if you used steal to late you shouldnt go into stealth in the first place) Seems like there is a delay between the teleport and the damage. please fix
Similarly with Hidden Thief trait: make sure server delay or w/e does not kill the stealth with mug

Last Refuge
Stealth effect should be delayed after the animation & blind (maybe stop autoattack as soon as it triggers like stealth would do) by approximately 0.5 sec. This prevents the trait from instantly reveal you when you are attacking instead of stealthing.

Mid-air immob should be fixed too(cant any skills) but thats not thief-specific.

Anything else you guys can think of?

This shouldn’t affect shadow refuge because the refuge is risky enough already to be in, you can be easily cleaved, eviscerated etc.

For other stealths this could be fun to play against. Although it wouldn’t change much because engis can already spam their skills around them, in which you wouldn’t stand as a thief anyway. people usually teleport in with backstab or shadow shot from the distance. Still it would add some play to it

I wouldn’t mind 50$ if they made proper pvp content, like 2v2 3v3 arenas with leaderboards or even just more good conquest maps. Stronghold encourages cheesy builds and killing autoattacking NPCs is boring. Treb is useless. running supply is boring, people don’t have to fight for buffs they just pop stability and channel…. The only thing that’s exciting is the lord room.

Feline Grace: Nice that you changed this to 1 second CD, which means S/D is hopefully going to be some good choice again!
Endless Stamina: Nice that this changed from 20 to 50 percent. (Otherwise the impact of it might have been to low)

These traits replace 15 endurance(50 endurance=1dodge) on dodge and 10% damage bonus. +Vigor nerf = disaster.
Even without the vigor nerf this is worse than the actual feline grace and 10%dmg traits by far.
Thieves die for making a single mistake in terms of dodging anyway so these gain vigor/initiative on successful evade don’t incentivise anything good. Thief has low base hp, low armor, no extra sustain. This in my opinion has the opposite effect compared to what they are attempting to achieve: they move the emphasis from dodging important skills to just dodge anything. Totally wrong approach.

Revert these changes please…

Also the other changes are good indeed. I especially like the passive stealth trait moved from minor because tons of times it has killed me by making me instarevealed, then when i try to stealth away I can’t.

Gabriell.4856:

Dahkeus.8243:

So, ideally no one won and everything’s balanced…

but this is the internet and we’re on video game forums, so of course we’ll all be talking about how the complete opposite is true. =P

Anyways, my vote goes to Engineer:
– Elites got significantly buffed
– Blast finisher on dodge
– They can actually see their back piece now

“Steal” won.

It gained additional range and a few secs off the cooldown. Still remains the most OP instant ability in the game.

It is not actually a CD reduction but they splitted the reduction you get from trickery -that every1 has- into baseline. And the whole trickery line used up by your “OP” steal. Even so, steal doesn’t win u a duel with the cele beasts or other op classes like gua.
Not OP but mabye does so many things on 1 command. other classes have up to 4 class specific skills, while thief has 1. its not op.

It’s a good fix. You can still bait out countermeasures by stowing your weapon

Great idea! There are other stuff they could assist us on like showing a timer on mesmer portal, to see when it disappears.(also shadow trap, and maybe all the other traps)

Not a good change

a good player keeps you track of your cooldowns. and improvisation removes counterplay. It is the only trait that is gonna enable doubling up on heal…

And BTW engineer stolen items is worthless, please rescale damage to elixir gun’s acid bomb or completely rework it because its only useful against downed. by the time you cast it at someone who is immobilized +flying time they surely move away. Or if they stand in it for 1 sec they take 300dmg and a weak condition

Improv is too RNG and shouldn’t exist imo. Your foe has no idea of your cooldowns and it can be too overpowered. Steal does enough things already anyway. Other time you dont get any effect out of the trait. just too random

Windwalker.7421:

MailMail.6534:

Hmm it’s still to be seen, but I’m pretty sure thieves will still counter Mesmer. My hope is that it just won’t be a ridiculously hard counter anymore.

Totally agree. I don’t think that it’ll be Mesmers>Thieves, that was not a notion I was ever defending, but it was:

Thief >>> Mesmer

and may now be closer to:

Thief >= Mesmer

With many caveats of course…

Mesmers gonna get half of their best traits(including a grandmaster) baseline. They get up to 4 traits melted into one. Blind on shatter. these alone get thieves rekt

Can’t believe people complain about engi getting a slight nerf on 1-2 traits when they all the others are gonna be most op in the game. Aoe moa as a HALF elite skill to remove liches, plagues, aoe control etc.. the supply crate gets buffed even further you can drop the bandages, 3 turrets, overcharge(heal,condi remove) the healing turret and then blast all 3 turrets into its water field JUST with the elite. they gonna be able to insta heal out a guild lord from 1 hp. their throw elixir R gonna be on a 0s then a 20sec cd. with the trait.

If engis need anything its a nerf.

Acrobatics traits need the most buff ATM they are getting way worse when at the same time all other classes/traitlines get op.
They should strengthen the options in grandmaster slots in all lines i.e.: nobody is gonna take Quick Pockets over Sleight of Hand. No quarter and Executioner are still uncontested too. Also Crit strike traits are too straightforward and have not enough play to them, some utility would be great.
Edit: Improvisation is also good. However, a good player keeps you track of your cooldowns. and improvisation removes counterplay. It is the only trait that is gonna enable doubling up on heal…I’d suggest a removal.

Dagger mainhand is not op in itself, just with pistol offhand. I dont think that the 25% dmg inscrease for cloak and dagger is gonna matter too much for D/D or S/D. Cloak and Dagger Should have a 1 sec blind on it so u dont get rekt as soon as u finish casting it. It has slow cast time, high cost anyway, can be dodged, missed, blocked, invuln’d, kited. Meanwhile at D/P these problems aren’t there at all. they can just combo it at any time. All I’m saying if C&D is this risky make it rewarding at least.

Kadin.2356:

Making sword main hand skills return a bit of endurance on hit may be a way of bringing it back up to par?

Yeah that effect happens to be lost and is on dagger auto attack for some reason.
because what is the theme of dagger mainhand? OP-ness. So it totally fits. Could also be a nice fit for sword tho

Thieves die for making a single mistake in terms of dodging anyway so these gain vigor/initiative on successful evade dont incentivise anything good. Thief has lo base hp, low armor, no extra sustain. This in my opinion has the opposite effect compared to what they are attempting to achieve: they move the emphasis from dodging important skills to just dodge anything. Totally wrong approach.

Quoting myself from different thread:

Especially when all the specs get up to 4 traits melted into one (cough mesmer cough) and get lots of them baseline. Meanwhile S/D thieves? feline grace nerfed from 15 endurance to 6.67(that no longer stacks with vigor because it is vigor), -10%damage, -25% vigor effectiveness. Yes, arenanet, S/D thieves were already pushed out of the meta but nerf them more, great idea. Yup, all the other classes get vigor nerf too but that wasn’t their unique way of survival.
S/D is real fun and requires skill so I hope they made the vigor changes without thieves and in mind and they gonna reevaluate the situation

Especially when all the specs get up to 4 traits melted into one (cough mesmer cough) and get lots of them baseline. Meanwhile S/D thieves? feline grace nerfed from 15 endurance to 6.67(that no longer stacks with vigor because it is vigor), -10%damage, -25% vigor effectiveness. Yes, arenanet, S/D thieves were already pushed out of the meta but nerf them more, great idea. Yup, all the other classes get vigor nerf too but that wasn’t their unique way of survival.
S/D is real fun and requires skill so I hope they made the vigor changes without thieves and in mind and they gonna reevaluate the situation

Kicker.8203:

. If the thief fails to elude a burst he dies anyway – no need for traits to incentivise evading.

Maybe evading damage for a certain % of your base health should grant protection (to help survive in cleave) or might stacks to retaliate. (The amount of might stacks could be determined based on damage evaded.)
Edit: Although i’m guessing it would be hard to code and balance because of other factors(stuns,slows etc). The point is evading key things should be the focus, if Anet can’t come up with something better then it’s still better to just reverse the changes

Laraley.7695:

style.6173:

MadVisions.4529:

<i got easy 1k++hrs on thief and 1400+ matches on the new system />

lets face it: D/P did force the rest of the builds out of the meta already. And now its gonna be more silly than ever.

For someone who says they have so much thief experience, you sure don’t know what you are talking about. D/P didn’t force the rest of the builds out of the meta. The nerf to precasting flanking strike hurt S/D. The initiative increase on pistol whip hurt S/P.

He’s not wrong, though imo. The nerf to sd did change a bit, on the other hand dp brings more utility to the group. I think if dp thief didn’t exist, sd would still be in play due to the mobility + sr.

exactly.

style.6173:

MadVisions.4529:

<i got easy 1k++hrs on thief and 1400+ matches on the new system />

lets face it: D/P did force the rest of the builds out of the meta already. And now its gonna be more silly than ever.

For someone who says they have so much thief experience, you sure don’t know what you are talking about. D/P didn’t force the rest of the builds out of the meta. The nerf to precasting flanking strike hurt S/D. The initiative increase on pistol whip hurt S/P.

I’d say its mostly because of the more teamfight oriented playstyle nowadays.
The high burst potential and party stealth makes D/P better for teamfights while the other specs have more(?) sustain damage but they die to cleave.
Also D/P will benefit the most from the stronghold gametype since you don’t have to stand on points(→stealthspam) and u need as much damage as possible(NPCs are easily backstabbed).

Wise words. I agree that the patch is gonna favor D/P the most despite the fact that it is already stronger than the other builds so this definitely won’t help build diversity.
IMO heal in stealth and initiative regain shouldn’t be in one trait just because they fit well together: it is too powerful this way.
I see the changes in acrobatics for S/D thieves try to revolve around evading which is a good thing but i think they look at it from a wrong angle: the evasion should be the tool for evading important skills rather than activating traits for evading a crappy auto-attack. If the thief fails to elude a burst he dies anyway – no need for traits to incentivise evading. If anyone cele eles should be forced to evading something to trigger their Evasive Arcana because they use their dodge solely as a skill and they get away with it perfectly fine. Not to mention preemptive dodging is the only way to avoid incoming stealth bursts and instant or fast casting skills.

Yes plz. Just let ppl fall to the ground when they r immobilized

Sizzle Hint.1820:

Kicker.8203:

Sizzle Hint.1820:

mango.9267:

Posted this in another thread, but I’m posting it here too.

I must not be playing the same game as everyone else because these changes are kittening amazing for every kind of thief. In fact, I would say that these changes make thief borderline OP.

1) Executioner and panic strike in the same line
2) Improvisation is getting a HUGE buff (if you opt for that over executioner)
3) Resilience and rejuvenation simultaneously
4) Potentially setting needle trap every time you heal (I can definitely see people taking this over mug)
5) Trickery is more or less the same

With stat points now separated from trait lines, 60606 will be absolutely insane, providing damage, unmatched finishing potential, great self-sustain, and tons of team utility.

Even if you choose acro, swinder’s equililbrium has got to be one of the most OP traits for S/P or S/D thieves. Imagine how easy it is to evade a random AoE in a team fight, and now imagine shaving 1s off steal every time you do (with only 1s ICD). That is just an absolute godsend.

TL;DR: every trait line is amazing except crit strikes. 60606/60066/60660 will all be extremely powerful builds.

This

current D/P builds will be hugely buffed. 6 0 6 0 6 and 6 0 0 6 6 will both be really strong.

Trap on heal skill is gonna be really interesting. Since withdraw will become a trick you can trait for lower CD… withdraw every 12 seconds + spawning a trap sounds pretty kitten amazing.

Acrobatics looks really amazing too… buffed pain response + amazing hard to catch.

feline grace took a huge hit but i don’t think it’s that much of a deal. To be honest some builds just had way too many dodges so it’s a good change

Traps can reveal u and u have to sacrifice Mug which is a good one.

Pain response wasn’t buffed. its the same.

The whole idea of s/d thief is to have more dodges than others. it comes at the cost of damage and other utilities though.

ICD got changed on pain response its 20 sec now

Yeah u r right, but it takes up the place of vigorous recovery now

Too good to be true… probably they realise this soone or later

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

50% damage taken while in stealth
…
Putting Resilience of Shadows as a minor is madness.

They said it is subject to change strongly implying a nerf.
Although if they nerf it to 25% it is still gonna be great.

I agree with all, especially that Combo Critical Chance is rubbish and, Invigorating precision is bad in concept: totally not what a thief should have. And the traits need more juice overall.

Softspoken.2410:

Shockwave.1230:

Invigorating Precision – The design of this trait is not happy for a thief. You don’t want to take hits. This trait’s design is low potency all the time and fits a warrior better as they can trade blows. A thief plays hit and run, so allow this trait to play more like mug so you can turn a fight around on someone. Give it an ICD and maybe make it static heal on crit plus a percentage the critical damage inflicted retuned as well, seems more build defining this way.

Invigorating Precision heals based on outgoing crits, aka crits that you do to other people.

The sky is blue.

Sizzle Hint.1820:

mango.9267:

Posted this in another thread, but I’m posting it here too.

I must not be playing the same game as everyone else because these changes are kittening amazing for every kind of thief. In fact, I would say that these changes make thief borderline OP.

1) Executioner and panic strike in the same line
2) Improvisation is getting a HUGE buff (if you opt for that over executioner)
3) Resilience and rejuvenation simultaneously
4) Potentially setting needle trap every time you heal (I can definitely see people taking this over mug)
5) Trickery is more or less the same

With stat points now separated from trait lines, 60606 will be absolutely insane, providing damage, unmatched finishing potential, great self-sustain, and tons of team utility.

Even if you choose acro, swinder’s equililbrium has got to be one of the most OP traits for S/P or S/D thieves. Imagine how easy it is to evade a random AoE in a team fight, and now imagine shaving 1s off steal every time you do (with only 1s ICD). That is just an absolute godsend.

TL;DR: every trait line is amazing except crit strikes. 60606/60066/60660 will all be extremely powerful builds.

This

current D/P builds will be hugely buffed. 6 0 6 0 6 and 6 0 0 6 6 will both be really strong.

Trap on heal skill is gonna be really interesting. Since withdraw will become a trick you can trait for lower CD… withdraw every 12 seconds + spawning a trap sounds pretty kitten amazing.

Acrobatics looks really amazing too… buffed pain response + amazing hard to catch.

feline grace took a huge hit but i don’t think it’s that much of a deal. To be honest some builds just had way too many dodges so it’s a good change

Traps can reveal u and u have to sacrifice Mug which is a good one.

Pain response wasn’t buffed. its the same.

The whole idea of s/d thief is to have more dodges than others. it comes at the cost of damage and other utilities though.

laquito.5269:

I dunno about you guys, but D/P Panic Strike looks so ridiculously strong on paper now. All the current benefits plus Stealth + Blind on Steal + more ini + Health regen. Guess D/P vs S/D will be even more one sided. kitten’s comedy

it’s already not on the same strength but hey! lets nerf underperforming builds and buff op ones like we added sentinel amuled for turret engis #anetlogic
Edit: better example : Panic strike to master trait and lightning hammer nerf

haha random dodge build? has one of the highest skill caps

i dont know in which hotjoin u chained 2 infiltrator’s strikes together but must have been worth the weapon swap :P

the condi removal is better than nothing but if u either get loaded up with many condis or u cant disange behind line of sight it wont help at all(even so it means u r doing nothing getting rid of condis). it is not enough in itself.

the 10% damage increase tooltip stayed there unintentianlly from the earlier version of the trait. the trait description itself doesnt mention damage increase meaning there isnt.

Sizzle Hint.1820:

ICD is actually 1 sec

with boon duration will prolly be 3/3 + vig recovery… even if we dont get perma vigor in acro alone can still take bount… 12 sec withdraw is probably overkill anyway with impro… sword has some decent clondi cleanse built into the set alrdy but yea ure right no more pain response but we will see how it plays out

it was meta at one point dude (yea i know i know ) and in stronghold i feel like shortbow isnt as needed anymore… its just some theorycrafting on my part though

Yes because S/D doesnt have the pressure to make the most out of it but you will have lots more damage with these changes incoming

i feel executioner is pretty underwhelming after taking a closer look at impro…

10% dmg increase (all the time) + random recharge + stolen ab twice

vs

20% if enemy below 50%

Maybe it’s really gonna be lackluster but i think it looks really interesting… we will have to wait and find out

You are really tiring… I just explained why u cant take those traits.

Condition removal on sword 2 isn’t close to decent. they load more conditions during the time u spend to remove them.

S/D+S/D was meta? maybe in a hotjoin server in your dreams.

Shortbow is still a great utility but anyhow i dont see why you would take an S/D thief into Stronghold that’s just not their map. D/P thieves can just stealth all day, no need to stand on points.

‘10% dmg increase (all the time) + random recharge + stolen ab twice’ IDK how u managed to discover a 10% damage boost where there isn’t. Even the old trait was 10% only when wielding ice bow and stuff. Now even that part has been removed.
stolen abilities are undergoing a rework they even remove the damage portions from them.

Maugetarr.6823:

yolo swaggins.2570:

Maugetarr.6823:

yolo swaggins.2570:

Even though the original feline grace is gone that 1 lost second doesn’t mean much. Thief has a high dodge uptime already. The most this trait does is add reward to those who use evasions properly.

Certain builds have high dodge uptime, and I’m not complaining about the change to feline grace wither, but I don’t think the new GMm trait is up to par. It knocks off less than half a second for dodging. Feline grace was one of the tools you could use to make up for the dodging deficiency of D/D which has an abysmal weapon evade. I’m just saying giving endless stamina a 50% boost would give thief 1 extra dodge every 20 seconds (instead of 1 extra dodge every ~50 seconds, which this trait is)

Well at least they fixed Hard to Catch. Bad part about it is thieves cannot claim the worst trait in the game anymore. :P

I mean I’m actually pretty happy with the changes other than this one. Hard to catch is a nice change. It’s just that acro and crit are underwhelming compared to the other 3 lines now like ensign said, especially since they don’t offer a stat boost even.

agree

Sizzle Hint.1820:

I dont know…

D/P will be very strong yes

Although i think there is a lot of potential for S/D and even S/P aswell… synergy between trickery line + impro + swindlers equilibrium looks very interesting on paper.

Swindlers equilibrium is really interesting since it reduces steals recharge by 1s not just if you evade with flanking strike, it does on all your evades. Dodges, withdrawl, flanking strike, pistol whip in particular, as long as you stay on sword.

Sounds like a lot of stealing that can potentially recharge your withdrawl (trick now) which lets you evade more -> lower recharge -> steal again

Withdrawl can be traited for 12 sec cd now in the trickery line although it has to compete with bountiful. Have to see how much vigor uptime you will get from new acrobatics but looks like we will be running around with perma vigor now even without bountiful. With traited trick recharges you get more vigor from withdraw now aswell so might not be a neccessity anymore.

With impro you can also use stolen abilities twice now… with steal having a potentially lower CD than 21 sec now imagine how many consume plasmas you will be using vs a mesmer how long you gonna daze the guardian?

Maybe have to experiment with double S/D builds again using energy sigils for more dodges and less steal recharge i feel 10 sec steal recharge inc? Would be pretty crazy

Yea and top more damage (the stats u didnt get from CS + DA lines before) + panic strike

yes pls i want to test now release this alrdy

I’m pretty sure teh reason there isnt an ICD written is because they weren’t sure about the numbers.

How did u calculate perma vigor without bountiful? In practice 2sec duration 3 sec recharge doesnt mean 2/3 uptime and taking Vigorous Recovery is not viable anymore IMO coz then u have no condi remove.

s/d+ s/d will never be viable.

Seems like u havent tried panic strike on S/D. its terrible.

Improvisation has 1/4 chance to recharge tricks so that wont happen too often and it competes for the spot with executioner.

(They mentioned the nerf on last dev stream.)

Lightning Hammer the most op skill in the universe of MMOs finally gets its well deserved nerf. Its amazing range, devastating damage and overwhelming flexibility made this skill a must-have in the current meta, both in PvE and PvP. I’ve never seen any cele ele or zerker ele without exploiting this bug (Its godlike usefullness made the community suppose that it was merely a bug.)
Alone its beauty made it beneficial to use in PvP since it made enemy players have orgasms just by looking at it. This, paired with the unparalelled abilities made the skill an obvious candidate for nerf.
But worry not my friends! This skill is so powerful, no matter how hard they nerf it, it will still be OP.

mango.9267:

Thieves traited into CS for two main reasons: stat bonus and executioner.

It couldn’t have been said better it was exactly what I thought.

but ‘not a great loss’? in terms of build diversity which they are trying to increase it is a great downside, they should come up with new critical-hit-related ideas, and merge soem of the terrible traits there like heal on crit

FZeroWing.2098:

Kicker.8203:

The super OP deadly arts is gonna increase the gap between s/d and d/p even more, since d/p thieves can take a lot more advantage from immobilizes than s/d due to their devastating autoattack. S/D gameplay is the most reactive -and imo fun- playstyle, since you have to constantly be aware what your opponents are doing, unlike random blind, stealth spam + out-DPS kind of thieves.
Also the new Feline Grace trait is complete rubbish… u need a succesful dodge to trigger the Vigor(when you have to dodge a lot randomly against stealthed foes or any class with attack rates faster than reaction time), which is on THREEE?!?!?!?!?! seconds cooldown when a dodge roll lasts 0.75 seconds, so if you perma dodge you get it on every 4th or 5th dodge.
I’d just lower its cooldown to 0.75 sec and increase vigor potency by a larger amount like +50% vigor effectiveness to make up for the dodges possibly not evading anything and the slow nature of vigor opposed to instant endurance gain.(vigor can also be stolen or removed), furthermore vigor on heal trait cannot be taken, because of the lack of condition removal, so people have to take Pain Response instead.

Edit: in short: Even cele eles have permanent vigor, but thieves won’t…

It’s not a successful dodge it’s a successful evade, they made a clarification of this during the stream… it’s any action you do that evades e.g S/D 3 or SB 3 or Dodge.

I see but it doesn even matter with 3 seconds of cooldown. It’s not even close to the usefulness it had.

if u make them crittable and condiable, why not stunable? like all other NPCs

Proven.2854:

I think you’re misunderstanding Feline Grace. It only activates on a successful evade, AND THEN goes on its 3 second cooldown. This means if you’re perma dodging and actually evading attacks, you’ll have vigor for 2 out of every 3 seconds it activates. And if you have boon duration or just factor in the improved vigor trait…

I’m not misunderstanding.
1. Acobatics won’t give boon duration anymore, and noone will chose 30% boon duration over 300 precision or power.
2. U cant permadodge forever
3. Thieves ATM have quite some vigor from Vigorous Recovery+steal(but ppl will not be able to take heal on vigor anymore because that would take the place of the condi remove ) this vigor as of now stacks with Feline Grace (gain 15 endurance on dodge).
After patch S/D thieves won’t be able to stack these, so in a small amount of time u can dodge less but if they insist on giving vigor then make up for the losses at least. As I said S/D thieves don’t always dodge attacks successfully because they have to predict attacks in many cases instead of relying on reflexes.
4. u say 20% extra vigor effectiveness but that means u get a dodge for free after 25 seconds of vigor (5sec vigor=1dodge) so it is way too weak.
5. 20%* vigor effectiveness* trait comes at the place of 10% damage increase so it isn’t even an upgrade in the first place.

Sizzle Hint.1820:

I think it’s a good change and rewards more skillful play. A lot of S/D survivability comes from nr 2 anyway.

I don’t know but 6 0 0 6 6 S/D will be friggin awesome. Much more damage since trait stats are gone + you get exe and panic strike…

Also that new master acro traits where steal gets -1 sec cd when u successfully evade an attack on sword sounds really strong… don’t remember if there was an ICD on it? If not omg this is gonna be so good

They didn’t say anything about internal CD but they will implement one I’m sure.
Yeah ofc 6 0 0 6 6 wil be better but each of the other classes get more buffs, and D/P thief can utilize panic strike way better, they just go 6 0 6 0 6 and they r invincible with more damage. The reason I’m sad is that S/D is already weaker than D/P in current meta and then nerf S/D traitline and buff Shadow arts for D/P and give them a free grandmaster immobilize trait.

The super OP deadly arts is gonna increase the gap between s/d and d/p even more, since d/p thieves can take a lot more advantage from immobilizes than s/d due to their devastating autoattack. S/D gameplay is the most reactive -and imo fun- playstyle, since you have to constantly be aware what your opponents are doing, unlike random blind, stealth spam + out-DPS kind of thieves.
Also the new Feline Grace trait is complete rubbish… u need a succesful dodge to trigger the Vigor(when you have to dodge a lot randomly against stealthed foes or any class with attack rates faster than reaction time), which is on THREEE?!?!?!?!?! seconds cooldown when a dodge roll lasts 0.75 seconds, so if you perma dodge you get it on every 4th or 5th dodge.
I’d just lower its cooldown to 0.75 sec and increase vigor potency by a larger amount like +50% vigor effectiveness to make up for the dodges possibly not evading anything and the slow nature of vigor opposed to instant endurance gain.(vigor can also be stolen or removed), furthermore vigor on heal trait cannot be taken, because of the lack of condition removal, so people have to take Pain Response instead.

Edit: in short: Even cele eles have permanent vigor, but thieves won’t…
Edit 2: Now that I think of it they should just change it back to 15 endurance gain instant but on all successful evades with 0.75 sec, and give back the 10% damage increase effect for 3rd minor trait. S/D already had the lowest zerker dmg anyway

Vampirism feels really weird indeed, you can finish stomps, use class skills while in it which makes it look buggy but it is also an interesting mechanic.
I’d try buffing the other runes first instead of limiting the viable choices.

Most of the runes are clearly underpowered, or have very specific stats plus a unique effect like rune of the adventurer (effect: gain endurance and might; stats: condi and power – why only hybrid builds can have the effect?)
+7% damage increase against chilled foes effect is ridiculous, when u gain 5% from strength runes which has only useful stats and effects. Chill and Might are not even close to be in the same category in terms of easy of upkeep. Plus curing conditions is way easier removing all the might -> Chill damage bonus should be at least double or more or just replaced by a different effect.
There are many other runes that have really good ideas in them but due to their weird stat combos or bad balancing they are simply unviable. Hope Arenanet will polish them soon. Also new ideas are welcome!