Doesn’t miss only in pvp.
If the altitude is different it misses in pve too. Actyally I’m forced to use it just to travel faster or at close range to add blind.
Well, it’s not very useful in pvp however. If it only had cripple instead of blind.
You’re just considering SOLO PVE, that in this game could be easily done by a blind pikachu. Do you understand that any ranger/necromancer with a minimum of skill could play naked in this game?
I’m talking about party istances, where guardian is really efficient only as a buffer/supporter (for the 10th time: every class buffed by a guardian is better then the guardian who buffed) and is usually a second choice when it comes to tank/dps. It also has no real ranged weapons, so even as dps it tends to get hate from the boss, since it’s all about proximity (it seems), and while a guardian is already frail, a dps guardian is even worse.
So we can’t dps (no ranged), we can’t tank (not the most efficient and low on hp), we can’t do almost anything in wvw beside supporting (= no loot).
If you’re only concerned about plain pve, then you shouldn’t be reading this thread.
During the beta I’ve read that guardian was considered godly and almighty, so they nerfed it. It seems they went too far.
I use save yourself and cop too. I believe every level 80 guardian use those 2 skills, lol.
They do not help you in castle siege, while Wall of Reflection has 40 seconds of cooldown (another must for WvW if you want to do at least something). I’d need Master of Consecrations to make it effective, but it would destroy my build (I can’t change it just for 1 skill I’d only use in wvw)
Is too much asking for a ranged weapon while every other class in the game has 1 (+ crippling skills that guardian doesn’t have)?
Also, am I wrong or we are the only class with useless elite skills? I’m usually cornered into mistfirewolf/hounds, or tome of courage (maybe useful, but healing gives no loot in this game)
(edited by Kidel.2057)
Warriors are good in pvp and WvW too thanks to their ranged arsenal (longbow = 900 range, rifle = 1200 range).
That’s basically what guardians lack: ranged options (and hp+stats reward from buffing+loot from buffing)
How does the 6th effect of Superior Rune of the Dolyak work?
Is it infinite regen or just “30 seconds every 20 minutes” or something like that?
Because the wiki is not clear about that.
They are not unplayable in solo pve or not organized pve groups.
But they are pidgeonholed in support roles in istances and wvw.
And while in istances I can deal with it, in WvW that’s simply unfair, because we get NO rewards from simply buffing. You have to deal damage in this game to get the loot, and that’s almost impossible without a ranged weapon atm.
So fix guardian or fix WvW.
(well, fixing guardian is required according to what anet said about gw2: “any class can do any role”)
To fix guardian in istanced pve adding more traits like altruistinc healing (or make it 3 times more effective) would be enought to at least allow the guardian to be a tank on the same level of any warrior/necro.
(edited by Kidel.2057)
While I agree with you that guardian’s problem in WvW is the lack of ranged options and the lack of cripple, and not the lack of HP (that is the main problem in party istances, where guardians are pidgeonholed in support roles), I still laugh at your sentence, that shows you have almost no knowledge about what the other classes can do.
Guardians do not have enough defense to mitigate their HP lack.
With the same set of armor we have about 200 more armor stat compared to a necro (light armor) and HALF his/her HP, and also no death shroud (so we can say that necro has more than 3 times the hp of a guardian).
The damage any class can sustain, excluding heals, that are pretty much the same (if not more on the necro, since it can get infinite death shroud) is given by hp*armor.
It’s not hard to realize that to have the same result of a necro (again, light armor, lol) it should have 3 times less def (and with the correct build and 4 minions, a necro can have even more def thena guardian).
I don’t need to talk about Warrirs, right?
Our thief-like hp pool is not mitigated by anything. We have way less damage mitigation then some other classes, while having the lowest hp in the game.
And, LOL, we are the only class in the game with no ranged option.
You know what mitigates low health? Ranged attacks. I have a ranger on my second character slot. EVERY enemy is close to death before it can come close to me. I don’t even need to upgrade my armor. And, you know what? A ranger has 50% more hp then a guardian.
Guardian doesn’t need a powerup, it needs a FIX. They gave us 100% les hp in exchange of an aoe aegis every 30 seconds, ahahah.
(edited by Kidel.2057)
pow+pre+cdamage sounds great to me, lol.
According to the wiki, every norn elite skill can be used underwater (even the raven transfromation)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elite_skills
I’m pretty sure a reaper can swim better then a raven.
Also, the mistfire wolf can actually swim if summoned before going underwater, but it doesn’t attack. Making it usable underwater would fix this issue.
(edited by Kidel.2057)
I’m sure they’re are more concerned with the trading post at the moment (that I also find more important).
As you can see it has been under manteinance for 2 days already.
Also the forum fails to load page #12 of any thread
Necro gets 20 toughness from each minion and 400 while channeling (leeching health or life force). Also the damage you can sustain is given by:
(hp + healing received) * armor stat
Necro has twice the hp of a guardian + death shroud (we can say almost 3 times the hp of a guardian, with death shroud recharging during the fight) + lich form (double hp, if it wasn’t enough) + fear and a lot of damage mitigation.
I’m sure the outcome is way higher than anything a guardian can hope to reach, also because almost every class is highly individualistic. The guardian is the class with the highest number of aoe boons, meaning that while a guardian gives power to every other class, it doesn’t receive anything, not even from other guardians (since aegis doesn’t stack). So the guardian gives aegis/heals to an already better necromancer/guardian.
However, do you want a heavy armor tank? Warrior.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/en/?fIEQJASUjgOtwBPGPMxCA0DryaLTBjOFgSVwuUhyA;TYAKoMQJgyClDKJUA
Again, can’t be compared to a guardian once they’re both buffed.
And don’t misunderstand me. I want guardian to be fixed. I feel pidgeonholed in a support role, while ANet said that there are no fixed roles in this game.
How can you hope to tank when you have the same health of a thief/ele and all your allies get your same boons?
The only way to fix this is to give guardian at least the hp of a ranger and a stat reward whenever an ally is buffed.
Also a ranged weapon and a fix on elite skills wouldn’t hurt.
(edited by Kidel.2057)
Compare your guardian (but also my guardian, since I’m main guardian with a balanced build) to this monster:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/en/?fQEQNBIhZakRLbPazYjhXBI945fhe+g3wCiFQfwdA;TYAKoMQJgyClDKJUA
Just look at the traits. That’s insane.
Also 19k hp with no armor and no runes (almost 40k in lich form). I’m pretty sure you don’t reach 15k hp with your full armor.
Imagine that with the aegis you apply, and imagine being in the same party. Who should be the one tanking?
Until guardian gets fixed, know your place. In a party you can only buff.
Just buff a necro or a warrior and let him tank.
How can you tank with HALF their hp and way less armor?
The only thing you have is aegis and protection, but that’s an aoe buff. Give them to a necro, that has TWICE your hp (4 times with lich form, I repeat: FOUR times your hp, also with more toughness), more healing, minions, hp leech, DEATH SHROUD, 3 ranged options.
At least use the focus as off-hand, so you can get shield of wrath for 3 more aegis only on yourself, but that’s not so influent compared to how often a necro can use death shroud, or can range kite with his/her minions attacking the enemy.
You don’t even need stability if the guardian is not using a hammer.
As kiting, well, easier to jump on a high place and attack from it, crippling the guardian or sending a minion. The guardian has no ranged weapon (the scepter is very easy to avoid) and no way to get close to a ranged class for more than 2 hits.
(edited by Kidel.2057)
That’s very frustrating, expecially for a guardian, who has only Renewed Focus as underwater option (that is kinda meh, and it’s the only elite skill a human guardian can use).
As a legit player, this would bother me immensely… I would prefer they actively go after people boting (GM stars a conversation with them), and not put an automatic solution that could bother legit players as well, while probably not stoping boting…
I understand the need to stop boting, but I value the need to not pointlessly bother legit players even higher.
If you are a legit player, why the hell are you not moving attacking mobs from your position for 30 minutes? And how is this even possible? lol.
That’s a very nice way to stop the botters. Good job.
not over recent memes it seems.
You don’t need ANet to do it.
There is no holy trinity, but I can say that some classes can’t do some roles, at least not in party istances.
a thief can’t tank, a guardian can’t do anything beside healing/support (any class with guardian buffs is better in any role compared to the guardian who buffed, and also lowest hp and no ranged options), etc.
get a guardian to buff your warrior/necromancer tank and ele/ranger/mesmer to range dps.
necro has the highest hp together with warrior, damage reduction skills, toughness increasing traits, minions, healing skills, fear, cripple, hp leech skills and almost infinite death shroud. That’s a SOLID tank (or ranged dps with minions if you want).
Add 1 aegis+protection every 30 seconds from a guardian and then let’s see if the guardian has the guts to say that he can tank better.
Ranger has 2 pets (that can gain boons too) and an impressive ranged arsenal, fury, regen, and 50% more hp than a guardian. That’s your ranged dps.
and so on
(edited by Kidel.2057)
well, some classes (actually only guardian) can only support in wvw, and they currently don’t get any reward.
while I think it’s funny, it’s just a meme. after a couple of weeks nobody will remember it.
Sorry for the double post, but the edit button disappeared.
I’d like to add:
- completely useless elite skills.
Tome of wrath kills me most of the time and has lower dps compared to greatsword and hammer (but well, for 30 seconds is the best ranged option of a guardian, ahah). Can’t be compared to necro lich form, since they gain stability and DOUBLE HP (they go up to 50k hp… i have 13k…)
Tome of courage would be great…. in a game with rewards for support/heal, wich is not guild wars 2.
Renewed Focus is almost useless. Invincible for 3 seconds but also unable to do anything… for what? Virtue of Justice is renewed each time we kill a foe (I’m sure every guardian has that trait) and the other 2 virtues are best used passively 90% of the time.
The fact that it’s the only elite we can use underwater (at least as human) is so ….
I don’t mind nerfs/adjustments to any class if warranted. I just think that those complaining about this profession don’t see the easy counters.(stability mainly and kiting)
Every class can kite and guardian is not the only class with stability (that is also an aoe buff, so in party istances guardian is still a weak buffer compared to other classes that receive stability)
(edited by Kidel.2057)
Feels like every time this is brought up I have to reiterate the whole thing. luckily, the post above me helps.
1. terrible ranged options
2. mitigation is sub par (aegis once every 40 seconds) also, stability negates all of our bubbles. we only have two and one of them is on a 120sec CD.
3. no cripples
4. no stuns
5. low health
6. difficult to spec into condition damage
7. a lot of our attacks have very slow and easy to spot telegraphs. ( hammer swings, binding blade, ring of warding sect.)
8. elites are now difficult to use with the recent patch.
Am I missing anything?
Yeah, also
- NO stat reward from buffing (except “Altruistic Healing”, that is simply not powerful enough to make guardians the best option as supporting tank/dps in party istances, every class with guardian buffs is better than the guardian who buffed)
and
- NO reward from buffing during castle siege (actually the only thing we can do in wvw is buffing)
I feel like guardian has been designed only for SOLO PvE, and that’s strange considering that almost every guardian boon is AOE.
Though I’m pretty sure ANet intended to remove the holy trinity and not the range/melee debate.
A guardian can play tank build and they can play dps with condition damage+power and they can heal. Thus fulfilling the criteria of Anet’s goal.
You’re talking about solo, because in wvw or istances is not like that.
In WvW guardian is completely useless as tank (lol, tank in wvw) or dps. Why? No ranged weapon in castle siege and no ranged weapon or cripple to hit ranged foes. Also no safe ways to escape from a difficult situation. In WvW guardians can only be supporters (and get NO reward from doing it).
In any party istance, guardians are supporters. Why? Simple. Any class with guardian buffs is better then the guardian who buffed.
A warrior with guardian buffs is a better tank, a mesmer with guardian buffs is a better dps, a ranger has 2 fodders for guardian buffs (and could even tank better since has 50% more hp and protection/regeneration traits + 2 pets).
Useless to talk about necros, that even complaining about their minions AI, have TWICE our hp, minions, ranged weapons, DEATH SHROUD, and IMPRESSIVE armor traits (like +400 toughness while channeling and +20 for each minion). It doesn’t even need guardian buffs to be honest.
Also, lol, “damage mitigation”.. A couple of aegis every 30 seconds are NOWHERE like 100% more hp of a warrior.
Guardian has been nerfed too much.
Solutions:
- Make scepter autoattack = scepter attack on ele/necro or rifle on warrior
- Give guardian the hp of a ranger (they have 50% more of us, lol, and we have no pet)
- Give reward for buffing people.
@ Ynna.8769
“Our lowest HP pool is mitigated by our innate defenses.”
AHAHAHAH
We have the same armor as every other class, except that we have HALF the hp of a necro or a warrior (both can be ranged, the first with pets and the second with heavy armor) and 50% less hp then a ranger (that doesn’t need damage mitigation, since it can be ranged and has 2 pets to attack from INFINITE distance).
We have the same hp and def as a thief or an elementalist, but we can’t be ranged and we don’t get any additional buff from another guardian, since defensive buffs and burning do not stack.
Meaning in a group we are extremely useful as buffers/supporters but, given the buffs to others, we are weak as tank and as damage dealers.
Meaning we are USELESS in castle siege unless we don’t buff (that in this game IS NOT rewarded).
Meaning we are just levelup machines but we can’t enjoy endgame.
Meaning that a huge guardian with heavy armor, impressive healing abilities and heavy armor has the same hp of a thief and half or a necro (but no minions or pets).
And, you know what? Even with everlasting spiritual weapons and 50% more hp our guardian is still weaker then a ranger in pvp, since we have no ranged weapons (scepter ahahah, compare scepter autoattack on guardian with every other ranged auto attacks in the game).
They simply nerfed guardian too much.
(edited by Kidel.2057)
Rangers deal kittenloads of damage using the shortbow (1200 range, fastest autoattack in the game), has 2 immortal pets and they have MORE HP THEN A GUARDIAN (50% more with the same vit).
I have a ranger on my second character slot, and I feel like I don’t need hp at all. The say “guardians have low hp because of damage mitigation” (= 1 aegis every 30 seconds, lol). As ranger I’m never touched at all by my opponent. And there is also the pet (actually 2 pets), HUGE dps and (that’s funny) a ranger can be also buffed by another guardian.
There is no need to talk about pvp, right? Can attack at infinite distance controlling the pet (the only “ally” that you can give orders to), can cripple, can attack from distance, can attack from a mountain a guardian can’t even reach.
AND YET RANGERS HAVE 50% MORE HP THEN A GUARDIAN.
I’m not saying that rangers deserve a nerf (even if it won’t hurt probably), I’m just saying that the guardian is too frail for a class that can only be melee, and doesn’t get anything from buffing others.
Metal, have you ever tried staff guardian? I currently use staff as secondary weapon, because it’s a great support for greatsword, but can only support.
With that I mean that every job has “support” weapons, or weaker weapons in some situations.
If you want to do damage as ele (or as guardian) the staff is not the best way.
Also, since Voltric talked about the ranger, let’s compare them.
Rangers deal kittenloads of damage using the shortbow (1200 range, fastest autoattack in the game), has 2 immortal pets and they have MORE HP THEN A GUARDIAN (50% more with the same vit).
I have a ranger on my second character slot, and I feel like I don’t need hp at all. The say “guardians have low hp because of damage mitigation” (= 1 aegis every 30 seconds, lol). As ranger I’m never touched at all by my opponent. And there is also the pet (actually 2 pets), HUGE dps and (that’s funny) a ranger can be also buffed by another guardian.
There is no need to talk about pvp, right? Can attack at infinite distance controlling the pet (the only “ally” that you can give orders to), can cripple, can attack from distance, can attack from a mountain a guardian can’t even reach.
AND YET RANGERS HAVE 50% MORE HP THEN A GUARDIAN.
I’m not saying that rangers deserve a nerf (even if it won’t hurt probably), I’m just saying that the guardian is too frail for a class that can only be melee, and doesn’t get anything from buffing others.
(edited by Kidel.2057)
I’m not playing wrong, since I’ve had no problems reaching level 80 and surviving istances. I’m just saying that other classes are stronger, not that guardian is weak, lol.
you failed to get the point of the thread.
simply making buffs and burning stackable would probably fix this issue, because it would allow guardians to support each other, making the lack of HP really worthy. Also fixing scepter autoattack and giving us the hp of a ranger won’t hurt.
(edited by Kidel.2057)
If you’re not killing fast as ele, then you’re doing something wrong.
mrsmith.4036, it may even work, but it won’t be a solution. First of all it would require a huge number of users and that’s a level 75-80 map.
But, even if it works, it would be a solution only for a tiny number of users who manage to go in the overflow, and it will still be a problem for all the other users that flooded the server.
I think it’s wiser to just ask and wait for a bugfix, that will probably be implemented in the next update, maybe before tomorrow (since they already have the fix, thay just didn’t manage to add it in the last build), instead of causing more problems by flooding 1 server (like data loss, or lag, or a server crash, etc).
Just be patient.
Give some reward/loot/exp for buffing/healing allies.
Also (maybe off topic) give guardians some boost when buffing allies, or it will always be a mere supporter in party istances (Altruistic Healing is not enough unfortunately), and a ranged weapon for wvw (scepter sucks).
I care and I believe that guardians have limitations in pvp too.
However I’m more concerned about the lack of ranged attacks (for wvw) and the very low stats that force guardians to be buffers/healers in party istances.
I don’t know. I just said that I’m sure they reset the serves at least on updates, but I can’t say if they do it more often.
I’m sure it does when they apply an update.
i think if we’ll go all in the same map and same server we can full the main channel and the malchor leap overflow map will activate and in it the skill point isn’t bugged. it’s a theory.
If it’s bugged on every server, why the overflow should be different?
54930 views. Lol
I think he was talking about users saying “It’s working on (X)!!”, while it’s not.
NOT working in Pikken, Dzagonur and Arborstone.
And not working on Ring of Fire.
I believe it’s simply bugged everywhere. I’d transfer on the first server that is claimed to be free from this bug.
I’m sure it will be fixed in the next update. They’re working hard.
At the moment I’m more concerned in class balancing then 100% map. I want to play now, the reward for completing the map can wait. It’s not the end of the world. It’s not like we can’t do anything else.
Just to be clear, it’s bugged on my server (ring of fire) too at the moment.
Same in Ring of Fire. Not there.
98% map -_-
actually talking about roles in party istances.
also guardian the top tier pvp class? what the hell are you talking about?
we don’t even have a ranged weapon or a way to cripple enemies. you can’t base a reasoning on just 1 experience (maybe against weak players).
not mentioning that we are not rewarded by any loot for the help given in wvw.
The only solution that comes to my mind to make sure that the guardian doesn’t become a simple cleric when playing in a group.
So how are we supposed to gain something in WvW?
Supporting is great but does not give anything.
The tomes are great aswell but to be usfull every 2min for 20 seks is a bit sub par. Secpter is nice but I am not sure about it.
So how do you play Guardian in WvW
Only way is to use a staff and buff the others dealing some random damage with #1 and tomes.
Can i please have at least a skill similar to necrotic grasp instead of scepter #1?
thanks.
Make aoe the #2 of the spear and useful the #1 of the trident, and then we can talk about it.
aa (#1) of trident deals almost no damage and the heal is insufficient and impossible to control.
(edited by Kidel.2057)
The Scepter isn’t bad. And that’s part of the problem. If it was actually objectively bad, it would get changed.
Have you aver tried to use it in pvp, or in wvw against players on the top of a castle? The only way i have to hit them is by using tome of wrath (that sucks, seriously)
Should be posted in suggestions probably.
Totally agree with you op. At the moment the guardian is the only class in the game with no ranged options.
Dante Dragonhand.2538, nobody said that guardian is not a great solo class. The point is that any class can receive every boon that a guardian casts on him/herself and become superior, relegating the guardian to the role of a mere supporter.
Example.
Party has a guardian, a necromancer and a warrior, all of them with tank build.
Wich one is the better?
Guardian has great damage mitigation with all the aegis and shouts. OPS, every virtue active effect or shout (except save yourself, but a battle lasts longer) is aoe, meaning that the guardian and the nacro have THE SAME BUFFS of a guardian next to them.
So again, who is the best tank among them? I’m sure it’s not the guardian, becouse has the same armor and half the hp, even with the same equip.
This makes the guardian an awesome all around almighty class when it comes to solo play, but a mere buffer/supporter in a party or group event.
Also, have you ever tried WvW?
All a guardian can do there is the supporter. Yes, it can completely change everything thanks to his buffs or the full heal provided by tome of courage, but DOESN’T GET ANYTHING FROM THAT, not a single loot.
So, other options? Can’t be ranged. Can’t chase opponents or cripple them (pretty sure it’s almost the only class with no cripple). Can’t reliably escape (healing the cripple or removing the block once every 40 seconds is not enough).
SOLO: can do everything, you’re right
GROUP: just be a buffer and know your place.
(edited by Kidel.2057)
The only thing I can think of, is that the more people we buff, the stronger we get (buffer bonus?), so we can get as strong as non-guardians buffed (when partying with them), but just as strong as them when solo…
That’s exactly what I’m trying to say from my first post xD
At the moment the only reward we can get from buffs is the trait Altruistic Healing, but it’s kind of meh…
And don’t forget a ranged weapon. Just putting the trident auto attack on the scepter would be an improvement (maybe keeping the attack power of the scepter, because trident attack sucks), instead of the stupid floating ball that I could surpass running without swiftness.
(edited by Kidel.2057)