Guild Wars 2

I remember this game, it came out in 2005, where you had 8 skill slots, but you can put any skill in them. There were elite skills, but you weren’t forced to using them. And skill slots weren’t level gaited. I loved that game.

IMO, the major difference between the past ‘been around the block’ and now is that in the past, Anet has said that they want to see if the Living World can provide the content and feel of an expansion. They hadn’t at those times yet. Because of this, expansions have been in the “not planned but not off the table” phase.

Well, now is the point where they’d showing whether or not they determined such.

There’s a lot of aspects, IMO, that point to an expansion being possible. But I’m not getting my hopes up, because there’s also plenty of aspects that point to it not being possible.

Faolain is in Caithe’s past.

Faolain is a mesmer.

Faolain did it.

We’re going into Caithe’s past to determine when Faolain turned evil, thus finding a cure for the Nightmare as well as Faolain’s secret abode where she took the egg.

Clearly.

New Krytan Government?

gasp Mental Paradox is White Mantle! KILL HIM!

Appropriate forum is here.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

But have they come to understandings, or is he just not being openly hostile about her being brought up anymore?

Maybe not understandings, but it feels like all hostility was removed and they’re okay with each other.

Which to me felt like too great a leap over a simple fight and dinner.

I thought Canach was in the jail cell at Fort Marriner, and just wouldn’t talk with anyone.

No, that was Mai Trin who was in the jail cell. Canach disappeared completely for during Dragon Bash/Sky Pirates, and at the end of Sky Pirates Mai Trin was placed in that cage with the same dialogue until her escape in Edge of the Mists – where in that very same cage, Canach was placed.

Canach was 100% MIA between Last Stand at Southsun and Edge of the Mists – nearly a full year (10 months iirc).

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I dunno, it seemed after the Jubilee many of the plot threads got lost/dropped/swept aside to focus on the story about Scarlet’s doings. Which wouldn’t have been bad if they had also done a full workup of that at the time . . . instead of dripping in details after the fact.

More of after Tequatl Rising and SAB2.

The only similarity I see is golden glow. The rate and sharpness of swirvs differ greatly IMO. And there is too much doubling of lines, whereas that is fully absent from the bloodstrone inscription. Instead, the only known doubling of lines we see in Tyrian languages in that style would be the mursaat runes. Though I’m hesitant to relate the two.

The wiki hasn’t been updated in a long time then, it seems, since this was known to the community since release, really. That’s not the only reference – it’s stated multiple times that all dwarves underwent the rite within 50 years of Eye of the North, and that prior to such the Stone Summit returned to Deldrimor. It’s especially mentioned in Granite Citadel, but also norn C3 PS and elsewhere.

But I could have sworn that I had updated the articles to reflect such. I’m going to presume it was reverted (or prevented) during the issues between me and Santax.

Edit: Seems the Stone Summit article wasn’t (could have sworn it was merged into dwarf due to ‘lack of relevance’ like the Deldrimor article was), but yup, on the dwarf article having had such mentions removed by Santax in his “improvements” – again. Well, not the reunion but the all dwarves turning to stone within 50 years bit.

Drow.2081:

Daily is easy but if your PvE and *****HATE JUMPING PUZZLES****** then monthly is to hard to get.

http://s4.postimg.org/nk9ukq3tp/gw001.jpg

You realize you left 6 monthlies unhighlighted.

You only need 4.

So, uh, yeah… you wrong, boyo.

And about YOUR Monthlies? You’re less than 900 glory or 18 events from it. That’s like 2 matches (3 tops if you really suck, and your 6 wins show that you don’t given you haven’t finsihed glory monthly) or 1 hour in Silverwastes/Dry Top (or 2 hours in any other map).

So why are you complaining?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Mmm, you see it that way? Huh. Interesting . . . that’s not what I see out of that scene, after stopping to think about it from what we know of norn culture instead of . . . you know, applying modern human sensibilities and morals.

The thing is that, to me, Braham isn’t really typical of norn culture. He’s very much a model of Wolf’s teaching of close knit communities. And his disdain for Eir has been brewing for years. Such things do not come to understandings after one decent talk – even ignoring human sensibilities and morals.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

No, Canach had Lost Shores as well, and a short story on the blog. (A practice I’m somewhat glad is done.) Braham wasn’t present for around half of the first season all told, while Canach . . . well, wastefully sat in a jail cell because there wasn’t enough real estate to add in myriad side-threads of story.

Braham was in-game, however, and had his own short story too, lest you forget. Unlike Canach, he was never removed from the game. He was always to be found somewhere – with the possible exception of Tequatl Rising and Blood and Madness Mk I. That’s my point.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Seriously, that’s my #1 point to leave for advice on making this “Living World” feel alive – get multiple threads going at the same time to give the appearance other places in the world are moving forward while the Pact is in the Silverwastes. It’s been sadly negligent to not be having regular updates on Lion’s Arch while we’ve been in the Maguuma Wastes.

Which was done for Secret of Southsun until Queen’s Jubilee, where you can see new dialogues and scenes between Braham and Cragstead folks, or Rox and Frostbite and other Nolan Hatchery folks. After Last Stand at Southsun, many of the refugees you could have helped during Flame and Frost suddenly wound up in Braham and Rox’s instances, with dialogue relating to whether or not you helped them.

I agree that if they want a true Living World rather than a continuous set of DLCs, that’s what they need alongside the main plot. But it seems their LW workforce has reduced in size…?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I just don’t see the “male character problem” as a looming problem that has to be solved.

IMO, it’s more of a “potential problem” than a “looming problem”.

It exists, but in little enough (but growing) quantities that it isn’t a “problem” but if left alone, it can be. Like a little water seeping down the wall of your basement – it’s not a problem, but if it continues mold can grow, wood can rot, and that’s an issue.

Shiren.9532:

Elesh.6192:

Scarlet was in fact what GW2’s story needed to progress, given that the sheer amount of unknown would take pages on pages of theorcraft and narrative to expand upon, whereas she was given the knowledge we lacked and according to many, needed to enjoy the story.

And she would’ve worked perfectly to provide lore and knowledge and motives and secrets of her Dragon master, as player forces and pact would bleed them out her and her allies.

Alas, she was killed off ironically too soon to be able to take on that role, leaving us with nothing too clear to look forward to but have events unfold beyond our reach – and entirely scrambled enemy factions.

Personally I think Scarlet was the worst thing to happen to the Guild Wars universe. She trivialised unique NPC faction identities to form her shallow alliances, she was the only relevant force on Tyria for over a year, she rewrote the history of the sylvari and she was disliked through her entire reign on the story. Her death couldn’t come sooner.

The current story is improving and I believe that’s helped greatly because Scarlet is no longer around. Instead of wading in the shallow story of the Molten Alliance (screw the revolution and a dredge cultural identity formed after many years of slavery, screw the religious fanaticism of the Flame Legion and their complex history going back to GW1 – the Molten Alliance formed simply for power and territory, those other things that made them interesting in the past don’t matter any more) we have the reconnection to GW1 lore (through Glint, Ogen and many lore threads revived in the Echoes of the Past release), we have the Pact returning to the battlefront (instead of moronically ignoring the destruction of Lion’s Arch) we have growing theories about the nature of magic in Tyria and the impact of ED deaths.

Scarlet was a low point in the franchise and I’m glad she’s gone.

I agree with Shiren.

Scarlet was okay in the lore until her reveal. Queen’s Jubilee/Clockwork Chaos is when Season 1 began rolling downhill – plotwise and burnout wise. Arguably Cutthroat Politics because of how sad that “vote” was – up to the Bazaar of the Four Winds was good though.

draxynnic.3719:

I’m pretty sure that the discussion in question predated GW2’s release, so they were at least talking about something in GW1. The Bloodstones would count, however.

Now that you mention it, though, apart from the motif there is some similarity between the Ring of Fire architecture and the EOTN. It’s been a while since I’ve looked closely at either, though, so they could have become more similar in my mind than they actually are.

Rather than arguing over our memories, I pulled it up:
http://www.guildmag.com/guildmag-issue-1-qa-with-ree-soesbee/

Some remnants of that civilization, and that ancient time, still remain in modern-day Tyria (both in GW and GW2), but often, those who discover such things do not realize what they have found. There are opportunities in Guild Wars 2 to uncover some of the most ancient lore, including previously untold tidbits about the Seers and their story, but such information will be very difficult to come by.

So yeah, it’s something(s) that shows up in both games.

Which the Bloodstone kind of do (we have Bloodstone Shards/Dust/Bricks via crafting, though this would be pre-Dust/Bricks; then we have the Arah path that has different kinds of shards).

The only unknown structures in both games at GW2’s development would be the Bloodstone and Eye of the North. My mind always proclaimed Bloodstone.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

lakdav.3694:

How about comparing the patterns of the Bloodstones (the glowy lines when the chosen were executed in the Wilds mission) and the patterns of this new door? Do you think they are similar? The stylistics of the bloodstone lines look a bit similar to the lines behind the cobra heads on the door, dont they?

I was ready to disagree but the design of the column of symbols behind the Cobra is actually similar to the winding designs around the bloodstone. I don’t know if it is intentional, but they certainly look a little similar.

They don’t look all that similar to me.

Astraea.6075:

Mental Paradox.3845:

Episode 8 is the last… Then they need another 2 month break… so yeah, disappointing.

Any citation for this? Given the full Carapace armor set is due to be unlocked during the remainder of the season, there may be 4 (or more) episodes remaining.

A potential timeline could have Ep 7 release on the 2nd, then Wintersday on the 16th, and then the remaining 3 episodes releasing in the new year (starting Jan 13th or 27th).

They stated on a PoI episode (iirc) during Halloween that we have half the season left.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

I can’t speak for the other storylines, but Shield of the Moon has you meet your Luminary at the end of the first quest. Still takes level 10 with the kitten changes, though.

It’s all three storylines. The luminary shows up in the first and last instance of the first chapter (level 10). They have only minorly changed dialogue in all 7 cases of their appearance. One line that refers to the Wyld Hunt (interpretation or conclusion), one that refers to Trahearne (ending only), one for about the luminary, and one about the cycle(s).

I have about 5 birthday scrolls left but no free character slots.

This particular dialogue is up on the wiki either way for one of the steps at least.

Was brought up – seriously – before. And it is plausible though unlikely.

Your theory if Kralkatorrik being strongest previous awakening is possible. Glint said she feared one Elder Dragon in particular: her master. Now this fear may not be strength related but more personal vengeance or knowing Kralkatorrik better than the others, but it’s possible.

Interesting theory to it, but as said, we don’t really know much about their order if awakening.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Not that I really care about your argument points (either side), but come on, at least read what you’re responding to.

Hmm.

Aedelric.1287:

Off the top of my head, Ellen Kiel, Belinda Delaqua, Caithe, Avatar of the Tree, Eir, Countess Anise, Ela Makkay, Zojja and that is only from season two I am sure I could name many more if I included season one characters like you did.

Yup. I read it.

You claimed the person Aedelric responded to didn’t include PS-involved characters – they did.

Raziel.4216:

Edit: btw "How is it okay for him to list things from before living world and season 2 but I am not? " you’re the one who claimed the list was only from season 2, you lied, he simply called you out on it.

To both you and Tobias:

Aedelric didn’t say the NPCs were only in Season 2 but rather that he took NPCs from Season 2 only – e.g., regardless of where else they were or were not involved, he only looked at NPCs involved with Season 2.

Reading comprehension, folks. It isn’t hard.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Oh, that’s not the standard, the standard is set by you making your own words of “and this is from season 2” when they were all started from season one or earlier. Or had no roles in season 2 (like Kiel).

Season 2 began with Festival of the Four Winds as its prologue/prelude. Kiel was involved there. Ergo, Kiel was involved with Season 2. I even said this in my previous post – proof that you apparently didn’t read even my full post.

All NPCs were involved in Season 2, and that’s what he said. He never said “they’re involved only in Season 2” – he said he pulled from Season 2 NPCs.

Gilosean.3805:

Honestly, GW2 doesn’t have a heavy female focus – it just has about equal.

Just to clarify: the argument isn’t “GW2 has a heavy female focus” – the argument is “Living World has a heavy female focus.” And it’s not about the number of characters, but the focus and attributes of the characters in relation to their gender.

Personally, I’m on the fence, and such writing – if such is intentional – only began after the Living World began.

Looking at the image on my computer rather than phone, and I see those I thought had a curved tail were either two standing perfectly next to each other, or had their rear ends lifted higher than others, throwing off my view.

Looking at it now, those shapes are EXACTLY like Scarabs in GW1. Four legs and a cone-shaped body with the peak at the back.

The dreaded Scarabs of Prophecies belong to Mordremoth now, it seems to be.

Those things have upright curved tails. Like the mechanical devourers – like scorpions. It’s hard to see due to the camera position, but you can see it on the edge ones.

Plant scorpions.

It was brought up and discussed many times. My thread on it: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/Of-Antikytheria-Six-Gods-and-Elder-Dragons/first

Commonly seen amongst asuran magitech. They are asuran script letters.

Maris.3164:

It could be just because it’s early morning but to me that looks like a human at 0:15 turning into a sylvari?

Becoming Caithe*

It seems that we’ll be playing as Caithe in the past. Otherwise we’ll be in for some long cinematics.

Though if such magic existed… Why wasn’t it used for Secrets in the Earth – instead if a dangerous ritual from the Crystal Desert.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Could it be possible that the fortresses were built by other humans? Perhaps Margonites? We considered this possibility, of Margonites existing in this part of Tyria in the past. But it’s a big unknown. And we’re just guessing.

The Margonites roamed the Unending Ocean and Crystal Seas. The only known land local of their rule was Marga Coast (Marga being akin to Saxon or Anglo in term usage). They were seafarers, why would they be in the middle of a dense forest?

If these are human made, they were druid or White Mantle made given lore.

@Daniel: but how am I to know when your conversation with Mal took place? :P

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasive_species

Sounds legit to me.

• Never denied that, but nothing says he’s connected to the White Mantle. He’s just a random person in a random location. Given past use of Mysterious Stranger NPCs, he may become relevant in the future…. or he may not.
• Your point? I said they were used on dozens of NPCs. Also they do have dialogue. As much as Drooburt. Same function, really, except they didn’t take money in actuality.
• You brought it up. Now that I countered it, you don’t care to continue? Typical.
• Wow. I ask you to point out where it says he was west and you said “they took him”. Where does it say they took him westward? Answer the question, eh?

Maybe it can be, but there’s really no reason to believe it. But you were saying it is Reginald – despite there being no reason to believe he’s Reginald.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Aedelric.1287:

lordkrall.7241:

Are they?

Magnus, Evon. Rytlock, Logan, Canach, Master of Peace and Aerin are all male and indeed rather important and relevant.

Canach is just as important and present (if not more) as multiple of the female characters people count, so why shouldn’t we count him?

Yes.

Off the top of my head, Ellen Kiel, Belinda Delaqua, Caithe, Avatar of the Tree, Eir, Countess Anise, Ela Makkay, Zojja and that is only from season two. I am sure I could name many more if I included season one characters like you did.

Keep in mind I am not counting the many other smaller voiced roles like soldier and such, which are often female. But at the end of the day none of this is really important, the real issue is the major characters and how the males are often portrayed as idiots or incompetent.

Arena Net could really do with making a new major male character that is useful and not a complete moron, the lack of relatable or likable male leads is disappointing.

Ooh, you stacked the count by adding in characters who existed before the Living World launched, when the person you replied to avoided doing so. Foul! Yellow card.

Uhhh…

Magnus was first shown to us in Edge of Destiny – though first in-game in The Lost Shores.
Evon has been in the game sense launch.
And he mentioned Rytlock and Logan – obviously, since launch (and before – both EoD and GoA).

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I just checked. Magister Ela Makkay was in Season One, twice. Once, though, as a purely infodump character. Belinda began in the epilogue instance of Season One. Ellen Kiel didn’t take part in events at all in Season Two, so she is a pure Season One character you pulled in.

Uh… Ela was around for Flame and Frost, Bazaar of the Four Winds, Tower of Nightmares arc, Origins of Madness, and Battle for/Escape from LA. That’s more than twice.

Ellen Kiel was part of the Season 2 prologue (Festival of the Four Winds).

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

So really your list for season two comes down to . . . nobody.

Aedelric wasn’t talking about Season 2 only, but Living World. Both Seasons.

Not that I really care about your argument points (either side), but come on, at least read what you’re responding to.

Eirdyne.9843:

For instance, there were no devourers in Ascalon areas before the Searing. They are a burrowing creature like a trap door spider. Now? They’re wherever some dev-team decided to throw some creatures on a map.

Uhhhhh…

Yes they were.

Eirdyne.9843:

Arbitrary creature use more to do with copy-and-pasting being the cheap and easy way than having anything to do with making creatures for a place.

I’m 100% not sure what the hell you mean.

Eirdyne.9843:

Distinct peoples were people, not people-made-into-distinct-animals. Guild Wars 1 had Heket’s as entirely something NOT human. Now they are human and a kind of human arbitrarily. Grawl were these terrifying primitive half-ape things that probably ate babies.

This isn’t a bad thing, given that there was culture and the like hinted amongst the non-human races. It just wasn’t really seen.

You going to complain about how the tengu suddenly became human-like with Factions? Or centaurs becoming such with Nightfall?

Eirdyne.9843:

Charr burned people alive because they were psycho. Motivated by religious reasons or not, it is NOT okay to burn people alive. Those Ascalonians that survived it either became the Ebonhawke or went to Ascalonian Settlement. The Charr have been bashing on the Ebonhawke doors all that time. Who has played Guild Wars 1 or suffered any form of Racial persecution would for a moment believe the Separatists to be a minor story element? There are more Separatists in the game than there are Ebonhawke. The visual plotholes emphasize narrative plots holes the size of Valles Marineris.

Technically, I don’t think it was ever said they burned people alive. But that’s besides the point – they weren’t ‘psychos’ even if their leaders were fanatics.

Burning people alive is actually rather calm for between warring groups, to be perfectly honest. You’d be sick what some humans came up with in both times of war, and times a peace. Especially if you think burning alive is so horrid. Hell, you see humans using sentient races for furniture, clothing, and armor. Even musical instruments. Amongst other things, no doubt.

Eirdyne.9843:

Scarlet is a genius who suicides, knowingly?

You do realize she was killed, not commited suicide, right? Thus a good chunk of your argument is moot.

Sarisa.4731:

That line is one of Ogden’s battle quotes. Confirmation here

This.

• Those badges come from the forts; those forts were owned by the bandits. The bandits are a front for the White Mantle (see human Personal Story – unknown parents), and the badges have the White Mantle emblem on them.
• Yes, there is. You can find over a dozen in Divinity’s Reach Eastern and Western Commons alone.
• You might as well try connecting The Unseen to the Unseen Ones or to Alain (aka The Al’Seen – which is short for _The All Seeing); btw, opposite of Unseen is Seen, not All Seeing.
• No NPC I’ve seen ever says he was taken west. I’d like to see a source for this. If such an NPC existed, then there would never have been debates about it not being the Maguuma Jungle he was taken into (which in GW1, included the now Maguuma Jungle). And Saul wasn’t kidnapped – he was imprisoned and exiled.

I wouldn’t say the LW has misandry.

But looking at the overall, it does seem to be coming close. There is a pretty obvious favor of women in the game, which itself is not that bad, and in fact given the industry, I’d say it’s good. But when two racial enemies are women haters and there’s no men-hating groups (major or not), or you have a nearly all female Living World cast (I can count the number of major male characters in the LW on one hand – Braham, Evon, Canach; no I don’t count Logan, Rytlock, or Magnus as they rarely get a focus, and when they show up, they’re cameo appearances usually). It starts getting perceived as misandry.

And the same would happen the opposite way.

But it isn’t there yet. You’re just starting to cut it close, imo.

And to quote someone in this thread: equal numbers doesn’t make equality" – aside from low men in the LW’s major character roster, most of them are unimportant or without specialities while the women in the LW’s major character roster are the opposite: important or with specialities.

I’m guessing that this is stemming out of a desire out of (some of) the writers to bring focus on the “women of gaming” in a positive light. However, if you start neglecting the other side… it becomes a problem – as this thread shows. There is no need to lose one side of the coin to have the other. The personal story was perfect with this – it had prominent men and women, in near equal numbers. The Living World is a stark contrast to the Personal Story in many, many ways. This is but one small one.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I had a recent conversation with someone about gender in regards to characters and how it’s unfair to use it as a handle with which to start drama/controversies.

Before you have any misconceptions, I have no issues with male characters being regarded with less importance than female characters.

The thing is, the writing is beginning to feel more and more rather misandric. As we go on, there’s an ever increasing praise for the female characters, while the male characters are shunted further into the background.

To be honest, at first, I really didn’t care, because Braham had a good start, and Canach was enjoyable. But now it’s starting to go a bit too far, imo.

Tobias Trueflight

There’s so many wrong turns this usually takes – replace “specific gender” with “specific race” and you get a treasure trove of other obligatory problems which “need to be examined”. Some of them have some value (why is it almost always asuran tech which people fall back on to provide the deus ex machina?) and some others are expected from the theme of the current climate (humans don’t have much in the world beyond their little corner of Queensdale).

I’m sorry, but there are more problems going on than whether or not male characters have agency or presence.

I agree that the issue is bigger than whether or not male characters have agency or presence. I never said it was the only or biggest issue – I did not start the discussion on the issue. I was merely adding my 2 cents at first and in my previous post I was merely hoping to fix a misunderstanding I saw between you and the other posters – the argument isn’t about Braham, he’s just being used as an example of a main male character with the subliminal message of “this is the same for all other major male characters.”

And just because there are more problems, doesn’t mean one problem should be overlooked.

There are issues with racial stereotypes filling the plot devices, though with the sylvari no longer being anti/con-corruption and with an extended presence of charr in Camp Resolve, this is hopefully changing. We’ll see.

And for the record: I don’t mind Trahearne. He’s not my favorite character, but he’s not bad.

Tobias Trueflight

We don’t need more deaths of developed characters, or secondary characters, in order to drop pathos on underdeveloped characters to force them into a role.

I agree, we don’t need more deaths to provide the purpose. It was merely one example that came to the top of my head – killing a character, while drastic and permanent, is also impactful if done right (the chapter 8 PS deaths and Belinda were not).

It was also why I first suggested bringing Olivia back. :P

Tobias Trueflight

As I keep saying, it seems to me that’s designed to be part of the character – he’s not the awesome hero he thought he would be just by virtue of choosing to act. Along the way he’s going to learn you don’t need to try to be a hero. You just are one.

No disagreement, but the gender-specific fixation is notable and if continued can become uncomfortable. That’s all my stance is.

I reallycouldn’t give a skritt’s behind if Braham improved, in all honesty. I would enjoy seeing it, sure, but it’s not a necessity. I wrote out a bit of a rant on the topic, but I really don’t care to go into it because I’m sure I’ll come off as sexist or the like and I have no intent to. I’ll just say that ever since the Living World started, there was a lot more focus on the female characters. In of itself, it’s not a problem. But reducing focus on other characters when there could be, that is a problem.

I doubt I would hold any care about this topic if Episode 3 didn’t just brush off Braham’s issues with Eir. Just suddenly see her fighting and “wow yeah I forgive her for leaving me and my dad when I was just a baby.” Because there is any relation between the two.

But where Braham’s falling short for being a main character, Canach is picking up. I just wish there were more such situations.

Canach had more time than Braham devoted to his story, so yeah, that’s a given.

Not really, actually. While Canach was first introduced, he was gone for most of the time that Braham was not. From Last Stand at Southsun until Edge of the Mists, Canach was MIA – Braham, however, continued getting little snippet updates (like Olivia crushing his poor heart) between Flame and Frost:Retribution and Queen’s Jubilee.

But not every story has to be told,

No disagreement and never said they need to be.

Flitzie.6082:

I am sorry but I get the feeling that recently people have started to actively look for something that they can complain on more than ever.

You expected the internet to be any different? Or the official forums, for that matter?

Uhaen.9876:

And yet no minotaurs; where are the minotaurs, ANet? What sort of labyrinth is this? Anyone else missing a David Bowie cameo?

/sarchasm

It would have been awesome if we had a single Mordrem Minotaur enemy that is accompanied by dozens of Mordrem Lurchers that are on par to the story instance Lurcher; the Minotaur would just charge down paths instadowning rows of players, while the Lurchers cripple and widdle players’ healths down.

Guess they could have used the special Teragriff model instead of a minotaur though. That should have been the Mordrem Punisher, not some troll that was barely more difficult than a regular Mordrem Troll aside from a much greater health pool. And none would have markers, but the Teragriff (aka “minotaur”) would be occasionally pinged — ooh, or better yet, player defeats by it are pinged. So you don’t even see where the Tergriff is, you just see its bloody trail.

Gods, now I’m wanting that instead…

I can just see the thrill of being chased by Lurchers, expertly evading them, then suddenly, at the end of the path I’m going down, MoFo Teragriff comes charging down, and it’s just an “oh kitten kitten kitten kitten” moment.

Pixelpumpkin.4608:

Labyrinthine cliffs – sounds fine (better than “maze-like cliffs” anyway)

Going by definition, there’s only one path to the top at Labyrinthine Cliffs, so it really is a labyrinth, not a maze. :P

HyruleanHyroe.1473:

Arianhod.3485:

but but but… he’s a troll!!! He’s supposed to do that :P

Ooh! Ooh! Can we get a literal internet-style Troll boss in an upcoming update? Some sort of brute with completely OP attacks who spouts random inflammatory phrases relating to the most common complaints from whatever the current release is? I’d have a blast sissy-flailing against him while laughing my kitten off.

He still won’t be better than the best GW1 boss

@OP: The issue is that the troll’s room isn’t that large… people will just stack at the safe landing spot to avoid being damaged.

If you make players invulnerable for a short bit after landing in, people will just leave and re-enter to remain invulnerable while damaging him.

Too exploitable. Only solution would be to make the room bigger.

That would explain why I never saw it – only had Dusk and Night sylvari PCs.

Eluveitie.1290:

However, taking a look at the wiki page regarding the Altar of Glaust something struck me:

“When the ritual is cast, beams of light break through the unnatural clouds above and through the circular architecture surrounding the altar. "

Sounds familiar, eh?

As I recently rewatched the vision cinematic: those golden pillars of light come from the ground and head up. The beams of light in the ritual is the opposite: coming from the sky and heading down. The color is also different: gold to white (or blue according to Tuomir).

Shiren.9532:

In addition to that, they don’t recognise a sylvari but Aife travelled to the Maguuma Wastes before GW2 launched, did they not see her when she was there?

Where was this mentioned? I don’t recall it.

Shiren.9532:

The episode is called Seeds of Truth – maybe the Maguuma Centaur tribe are lying to protect a secret.

I figured the name pointed to us learning a truth of Caithe’s past. Or rather, her intentions with the egg.

I just hope E7 doesn’t end up being a full filler episode like E6.

lordkrall.7241:

And yet back during Guild Wars 1 people were complaining about how much that story sucked as well.

Funnily enough back during the whole Scarlet hatered people where complaining about how Scarlet was behind everything and then referred to how Guild Wars 1 was so much better, when in fact Guild Wars 1 had more or less the EXACT SAME THING with Abaddon.

I never met folks who said GW1’s story sucked. They weren’t calling the story itself a masterpiece (all praise was more towards the background lore rather than the actual storytelling, with many a joke on the voice acting), but they never said it sucked from what I’ve seen.

The issue with Scarlet being behind everything was that she was behind xenophobic and misogynistic factions uniting together with non-xenophobic/misogynistic factions. Which was one of her main “personality attributes” – she loved mixing things that don’t make sense together. Which resulted in us getting lore breaking alliances (krait allying with Nightmare Court) or lore questioning alliances (dredge working with Flame Legion), and the writers provided no concrete reason for this – particularly for the Toxic Alliance, which is where the puppetteering hate came from.

Abaddon, however, was only ever behind demonic and spiritual happenings. Khilbron, Shiro, Titans, Varesh, Tomb of the Primeval Kings, Dragon Festival ‘06 – all were tied to demons and spirits before being tied to Abaddon. These things made sense, even if there was no indication of Abaddon’s ties and even existence beyond very minor lines or names (Abaddon’s Mouth; Suun’s words after beating Shiro) until Nightfall.

Scarlet, however, was tied to things that just made no lore sense. Abaddon had proxies to all things he worked with – Scarlet did not. And then, all of Abaddon’s proxies and tricked individuals had their motivations (even if created by Abaddon and/or his proxies – Khilbron wanted to the power of the Flameseeker Prophecies; Shiro was, via Abaddon’s agent, convinced he would be betrayed and killed and enticed to act “first”; Varesh was a cultist follower of Abaddon, introduced by a mentor). Meanwhile, Scarlet’s tricked individuals had no known motivations beyond the Molten Alliance (dredge wanted fire magic; Flame intended to enslave dredge when they got the knowledge they wanted) – but what was the motivation of Mai Trin and the Aetherblades? Unknown. What was the motivation of the Toxic Alliance and their unknown leaders? Unknown. Though we got told the NC’s goal: “Spread the nightmare” (so uh… why is the alliance beneficial to them when next to no sylvari were affected by the Tower of Nightmares?) and the krait were “to bring forth their prophets” (but why would they ever think that a lesser species like the sylvari could assist them in such a thing?).

Then there was the fact that Abaddon is a tragic villain – his fall was caused by him disagreeing with reducing magic. We don’t really have many details to the fall, but people interpret him as a misunderstood villain who by Nightfall’s time suffered 1,000+ years of continuous torment and acted in vengeance of the Five Gods.

Scarlet? She’s just a looney genius who proclaimed seeing the workings of the universe an all reality, who learned from every race of technological note and excelled beyond reason and belief. She was just so perfect and convincing to everyone and didn’t have a care in the world who just decided to go “I’ll kitten up the human’s celebrations =D”. Not to mention how we got two personalities of Scarlet – one “talked about” and one “shown to us”; the former being this cruel and murderous evil that keeps her troops in line with death threats (and actual deaths), while the later was just this carefree “I don’t give a kitten about anything and I’ll prove it by killing you all with a Joker Smile”.

That’s why people love Abaddon, but hate Scarlet. They may both be puppetmaster villains, but they’re polar opposite versions of a puppetmaster villain.

Ranael.6423:

I was wondering if it could also be related to Ebonhawk’s eagle too ? Well at the begining I thought it was more a tribute to Ebon Falcon but now that I read this….

Doubtful. Those walls aren’t even 250 years old, but the things in the Silverwastes are described as ancient – indicating older than GW1. Most of the Silverwastes we see in GW2 aren’t in Silverwood in GW1 as well.

Ranael.6423:

In fact I always thought The Eye of the North was a former jotun structure (dunno why).

That was a theory developed until we actually saw jotun architecture – they don’t even come close.

Ranael.6423:

But could it be that after the Dragons went to sleep the Gods associated with the former races to “watch” their next rise and build some structures for that : CTC, The Eye, Crystal desert ruins (though Kralkatorik was not here, Glint was… and they may have wanted to keep an eye on Abadon too), and now Silverwastes ? They all bear with a common symbol : the eagle.

The CTC doesn’t have eagles, and it was made by the asura – whom didn’t know of the gods until they surfaced.

The desert also doesn’t have eagles – the relation between the desert and the Silverwastes is the materials and, more importantly, the Ascension glyphs.

Ranael.6423:

Also I have a question about Silverwastes : when we went in Silverwood in the first game we never saw any fort (in the overlaping part). So do you think the ruins were buried under the forest and due to climate changes they are now uncovered or do you think it has been built and abandoned during the 250 years ? I would say the first answer is the one but I’m not sure.

Only Amber and Blue would have been in the GW1 area, and at the very edges. But it’s easily plausible that they would be off the GW1 area lore-wise, due to the different scaling of things.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

You are on to something here Konig. Me and Frozenwind were discussing this very topic when we were examining the same ruins. The comparison between the eagle fountainheads, and the eye of the north, were not lost on us either.

I talked to him the other day introducing that idea. I wonder if he took it from me? :P

That sylvari wasn’t Caithe. We see her interacting with Caithe and Faolain earlier on, and uses bright (whitish) light armor – whereas Caithe is seen using medium (of a green shade).

She is most likely a Firstborn or Secondborn we don’t know of, imo.

This seems to me to be pre-NC, given that the Nightmare Court was formed by the asuran experiments on sylvari, and we see something akin to that happening.

Tuomir.1830:

I never claimed it was the same texture.

I never claimed you did either. My point, which you missed entirely, is that the textures differ so greatly that using the globe to point out differences between the two is not very effective. Basically, I’m saying that…

Tuomir.1830:

it’s borders are arbitrary and shouldn’t be taken as canon information, and that the proportions are off because of the map projection, or rather, the lack of it.

:P

lakdav.3694:

Im not entirely clear on what was supposed to be Forgotten architecture and what was elonian/primeval king architecture in the Crystal Desert.

Gate of Desolation outpost had Elonian ruins only, while Lair of the Forgotten was Forgotten ruins only in GW1.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

I also thought that the pillars with hooded humans were of Elonian origin.

Nope, they’re older than the Elonians.

To quote Matthew Medina on the Ascension runes, which are – along with two additional runes – on those pillars:

“The three Ascension glyphs (along the with others in that “style”) are just ancient pictographs of the three areas you need to unlock to gain access to Augury Rock (Elona Reach, Thirsty River and Dunes of Despair). It would be safe to assume that the same forces who created Augury Rock/The Hall of Ascension created the “key” for unlocking it and the symbols that go with it."

So it’s not 100% certain they’re of Forgotten origin, but they’re our best guess. Whomever made the Ascension trials made those pillars – and it should be noted that the pillars mark the “Prophet’s Path” in the area of the same name – the prophet being Glint, thus the pillars are either Brotherhood or Forgotten there. Or some other, unknown to us still, group that followed Glint. And the Brotherhood doesn’t seem likely.

I have a theory that ties Ascension to the mursaat, whom thus could easily be seen to be what’s depicted on those pillars. But the theory is iffy at best. It revolves around the enchanted armor looking just like tarnished mursaat clothing/armor, and how Ascension seems only tied to the mursaat of all Tyrian races.

draxynnic.3719:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

I don’t know how it would tie into the theory, but the eagle motif is also common among the Tarnished Coast/Central Transfer Chamber structures in the first game.

Fits well for the theory about it being linked to the Forgotten, I think – we don’t know about the CTC, but they were certainly at the Tarnished Coast.

I thought of this and compared the Silverwastes ruins to them. They don’t match in the least.

Plus, we already have Rata Pten – pre-Cataclysm asuran ruins.

draxynnic.3719:

If I had to guess, I’d guess that the eagle symbol was related to the Seers. We know the Seers and Forgotten were contemporaries, after all, and structures like the EOTN might be part of where they earned the title. The Seers are also the one race out of the elders that we don’t have anything at all we can point to as being confirmed to be their architecture, but a long time ago the hint was dropped that there IS Seer architecture in EOTN, it’s just not positively identified as such.

Technically, it was “we’ve seen Seer architecture” – not necessarily in Eye of the North, just that we’ve seen it. The way it was worded was very ambiguous too, so it could have meant in GW2, rather than GW1. I had always taken it to mean the Bloodstone given the relevation on it – despite it not really being architecture (unless one looks at the Ring of Fire and claims that is Seer architecture – utilized and renovated by mursaat).

I had actually been thinking of linking the eagles to mursaat given that the mursaat were once compared to carrion birds, but the link is tenuous at best.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

We know that Turai Ossa tried to fulfill them in 868. That points to them being available to humans at least 200 years beforehand.

On top of this, the Test of the Chosen was first done – to our knowledge – in 1067 AE. 3 years before the Searing, 4 before the Cataclysm. The White Mantle have parts of the prophecies in their holy scriptures. This indicates that the mursaat did know of the prophecies – and knew of them prior to the cataclysmic events.

The only parts of the Prophecies that’s mentioned in hindsight is the Shiverpeaks being covered in war and the Flameseeker’s death. The rest are talked about before their occurrence – even in hindsight of another’s actions (Turai talks about the undead invasion and mistook Joko’s for the Prophecies’ mention, thus thinking himself a Chosen that would Ascend in the Crystal Desert by aid of the ghosts there – post death, he realized that he would be the ghost that aids the Chosen).

Zaxares.5419:

Still, if the Flameseeker Prophecies were well-known, wouldn’t Lich Khilbron then also be aware that an attempt to command the Titans would end in failure (and possibly his destruction)? That’s why I had the impression at the end of Prophecies that there may have been parts of the prophecy Glint kept entirely to herself, only releasing bits and tidbits to nudge players into the acts she wanted them to do.

It does seem that Glint intentionally let some aspects be unknown – but this is only seen to be the Flameseeker’s death and closing of the Door.

But the majority of the prophecies were known throughout.

The timelines in the manuals and books appear to be written from an omniscient viewpoint – or rather, the viewpoint of the developers. An OOC accounting, one can say.

But the question is: why would Glint lie about when she compiled them, if she did? They were all known before the events actually took place, even before the White Mantle’s founding. So what, the mursaat read the prophecies and went “we can make ourselves an empire, but we now know how to avoid our downfall if we do so”? Makes little sense to me.

When you look at isolated aspects of the Flameseeker Prophecies, yeah, “Glint made it up” works. But when you look at all facets… such a thing makes no sense. Because there are things that are outside Glint’s control, and are unlikely (Abaddon and the mursaat’s return to the world).

2. The Eye of the North

The Eye of the North looms over the land, an imposing structure of indeterminate origin. It is not human, Dwarven, or Asuran in construction, although it resembles the architecture of Arah and other godly sites.

I found this randomly a while back when reading through the magazine, hoping to find the line about the Great Destroyer being an “alarm clock” for Primordus. I did not find what I intended, but this – and other things I never actually read in the magazine – caught my attention.

As many players may now know, the Eye of the North looks little like Arah outright – no circles, and all that – though it does seem a bit familiar to original Arah concept art from Prophecies.

More importantly, however, that caught my eye would be the eagle motifs – as you can see via my attachments and the link just now, the eagle designs are very similar. A shared creator, perhaps?

One thing about the Eye of the North that was long overlooked by players, I just now note, is the similarity between the now-broken (or never completed) pillar in the center of the Eye of the North (most of which can be found in above image), and the Forgotten pillars – even the directions of the eagle motifs and the hooded figures to said pillar.

Another comparison note of the Eye of the North to Arah, is that Orr has a heavy use of eagles and feathers in GW1.

3. “Other Godly Locations”
To pull back to the PC Gamer description, it mentions “Arah and other godly locations” – but what are these locations? The only godly location on Tyria we know of downright is the Hall of Ascension – but that hardly matches the Eye of the North.

But if the Eye of the North is tied to the Forgotten – a thought I don’t think was ever considered before – then this could explain how there’s some similarities between the Eye of the North and other godly locations… After all, the Forgotten defend the Hall of Ascension, were once in Arah, and serve the gods.

And from the Hall of Ascension, I bring forth another appearance, a well-known one: See Attachment.

A “golden location” is the destination of the Master of Peace The golden location of the Pale Tree’s vision. And what other location we know of that was golden? The Hall of Ascension (and Hall of Heroes): a godly location. And here, on our way there, we see designs related to the Forgotten and similar to the Eye of the North.

Perhaps, now, at last, the pieces are falling into place.

Felt like making this thread on observations I’ve made since Silverwastes came about.

1. Ties to the Forgotten
By now, most folks may have noticed a tie in to the Forgotten existing. In the new trailer at the 0:50 mark, there is a design on a wall that has cobras – cobra designs have been used by Forgotten as discussed in this other thread. I have provided it here, see Attachment 1.

Less commonly known, perhaps, is a different wall design in the Silverwastes. I have not been able to find it, personally, but I’ve seen a few redditors posting pictures (annoyingly always cutting out the mini-map >.>). This wall design has the three Ascension glyphs and a 3-headed intangled snake ring design.

Those veterans of Guild Wars may recall the Forgotten structures of the Crystal Desert and the Desolation. Like much of the Silverwastes’ structures, they were made out of what appears to be sandstone. The biggest descreption is the designs being different – but in the Crystal Desert, all we see are pillars (which are in abundance in the Silverwastes), teleporters, and small structures that dig into the ground – never large walls.

North of Camp Resolve, we see a group of bandits excavating some ruins – ruins of the same design as the forts, thus proving that they did not build the forts (or if they did, they copied the architecture).

Forgotten seem like an odd choice for these ruins’ creators. There are stairs, after all, which is odd for a race without legs but a tail. However, there are two things to note about the Forgotten, both can be found in a simple quote of lore, but for completion sake, I shall quote two:

What you need to know about the Forgotten is this: they once acted as wardens to ancient races in Tyria and shepherded their development from primitive to civilized. They served the beings known as the Five Gods, and they fought wars for them. They had a strong connection to Glint, and they left guardians with her for many centuries. During the last dragon cycle, it was the Forgotten who freed Glint from Kralkatorrik’s corruption and control. In gratitude, she hid them from the Elder Dragons until they returned to sleep. If they remain in Tyria, they are elusive at best, and many believe they have gone back to the Mists from which they came—perhaps never to return.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Forgotten_Not_Forgotten

It was almost three thousand years ago that a race of serpents stepped out of the Rift onto the soil of Tyria. Unlike ordinary serpents, these moved upright, used language, and adhered to an elaborate culture. They had been summoned by the old gods, brought to this world to be the custodians. Their task: shepherd the other creatures of the land through this time of transition, while the gods continued to create the world around them.

From the Tarnished Coast in the west to the Bay of Sirens (now called the Sea of Sorrows) in the south, from the far eastern reaches of the Crystal Desert to the Giant’s Basin on the northern coast of Kryta, Tyria flourished under the protection of these mystical creatures. The serpents were the protectors of the land, the keepers of knowledge, the teachers of all things, and during their time the world was in balance.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/History_of_Tyria

Location is no hindrence for the appearance of Forgotten ruins, as “they were even in Cantha.”: And stairs is not so odd, if they housed other races with them – perhaps races that would find heavily inclined ramps harsher than stairs (there are some harsh inclines in the stairs, such as Indigo Cave).

What’s of particular interest of the Silverwaste ruins, however, are the eagle motifs. See attachments 2 and 3.

Tuomir.1830:

Mental Paradox.3845:

Tuomir.1830:

You are not referring to a map. You are referring to a map texture. It’s never once used ingame in a way that would portray land at the north pole – as I stated in the post just above you, the globes in Priory library show that the continent doesn’t reach the north pole, the part that looks like the south pole on the texture is the northern edge of the continent.

“You are referring to a map texture. It’s never once used ingame in a way that would portray land at the north pole”

What does that even mean? All that does is prove my point… there is no north pole, because it’s not a bloody sphere.

“the continent doesn’t reach the north pole, the part that looks like the south pole on the texture is the northern edge of the continent.”

Which is impossible in case of a sphere, so thanks for once again proving my point.

You are missing the point. Your assumption is based on the texture connecting on the southern and northern edges. However, those edges aren’t the true edges of the map, based on the globe. Take a look at the attached image – do you recognize the northern shore? The map doesn’t warp around north-south, the texture is simply laid out in a way it’s not supposed to be looked at, for whatever reasons.

I’ll just point this out now.

Those globes use an entirely different texture, which can be found here. (note: original was on the wiki and was deleted, unfortunately) – the two are completely different textures, and the one on the globe only details Tyria, Elona, and Cantha. The super-continent of Tyria isn’t even the same between the two. Furthermore, the one of the globe you refer to is an ArenaNet alteration of this fan-made map seen here.

As you can see by the player-altered version of the texture, it did not show the landmasses now labeled “Gwen” “Yeh” Dahye" “Kim” “Arid” “Wetlands” “Sunken Islands” etc. It did have some land portrusions on and near the corners, but it is not a complete map of the world.

I’ll ask that_shaman to see if he can pull the globe’s map texture out, to see if that was changed at all.

Zaklex.6308:

Perhaps so, but do the answers every really lose relevance if they were never answered? I guess some people just don’t understand that more questions always arise during almost any investigation or story…if it’s done properly…as long as at some point in time all questions get answered, or at least lead to new questions that will lead to answering those questions…sort of like archeology or paleontology…how many times has the discovery of a new dinosaur or ancient site brought up a host of new questions without answering the already existing ones? That’s what we see happening in the LS, imo.

The bold is what’s not happening in the LS.

Unless you think it’ll become relevant, somehow, in over a year, about who leads the Molten Alliance. Because that has not led to new questions, and has not been answered, and at this point, no, it is no longer relevant.

Anet had a chance to make it relevant, and they intentionally didn’t even let it be known that there were leaders of the alliances. Until people were gripping and Angel McCoy tried playing damage control and told us on these forums that there were, indeed, leaders of the individual alliances as well as motivations for their continued assistance with Scarlet – neither of which was hinted in any way, shape, or form in-game, and seemingly done so intentionally.

The Toxic Alliance may still prove to be relevant given that a lot of their art assets are being used – most likely intentionally – for Mordrem. But the Aetherblades and Molten Alliance? We don’t even see the later, at least we know the former are still around (in the Mists, digging in, under Mai Trin’s command).

• Seems my guess on delving into Caithe’s past is right and that the teaser features old Caithe and Faolain. Though those lines “sometimes to catch a thief you must become a thief” – can Anet get more cliched?
  • But more importantly – why does Caithe’s appearance change, but Faolain’s hadn’t, despite the fact that the in-game model for Faolain doesn’t match EoD’s description of her? Furthermore, why would Caithe have gone through a strong emotional state (meriting her appearance change, if the same rules as for Scarlet and Canach held with her appearance change) but Faolain, who has been just as hurt but more twisted than Caithe, not change?
• At 0:33 I see Canach – Lost Shores styled Canach, that is. Seems he was experimented on and freed by Caithe/Faolain? Would explain his larger disdain towards Firstborn given his personality if he couldn’t even save himself.
• Wait, why are Caithe and Faolain attacking centaurs? And that appears to be Dry Top? But, uh… “You are a rare sight in the uplands. Forgive this one for asking, but are you a nature spirit?” those centaurs don’t know what sylvari are…
• 0:56 mark: That’s new for sure. “There was a Forgotten glyph seen before”: in Silverwastes, different than this. Aside from certain naga that had hoods, the Forgotten are the only one who have been attributed to cobra-like snakes, mainly via their seals and the emblem on their books (only book backpack model in GW2).

@Xukavi: I don’t see why Caithe would keep that a secret from Faolain?

Gleam didn’t seem to be a dragon minion in GW1, so I am doubtful on the thought that a dragon born from an egg will not be free from Kralkatorrik’s corruption – and if it wouldn’t be free of it, then the Zephyrites would know this, no doubt. Though it’s been a theory of mine as of late that the golden location is Forgotten made.

FrizzFreston.5290:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Anet went the easy way – “if they complained about it, let’s remove it” – rather than the proper way – “if they complained about it, let’s improve it”.

Just a small quote on your post because it’s too specific looking into a possible solution for me. But I always thought the personally story needed improvement. Especially the attachment to certain characters was too quick. I dunno how vocal I have been about it as it was a long time ago, but I’m pretty sure this was already known on Anets behalf.

I don’t think that people being vocal about such things mean they are to blame. In the end it’s ArenaNet that is responsible about their game development and not those who complain. I honestly believe that ArenaNet tries too much to please players rather than taking a more professional stance on the design.

I like that people can voice their opinions about certain things, and I like to see some sort of response to that, even now “we are working on it” is enough for me.
I really don’t want them to say oh because person X said that we’re going to do that, rather than looking what is the best for the story.

I feel like cutting or shortening a story because there are players who said the book is too thick or they don’t like it, doesn’t mean they should rip out pages. I rather have them work it like we have x time we can do x instances, and this portrays the story in the best way.

As long as they don’t touch Trahearne. To me he always was growing in the story rather than every other stereotype character.

I agree, though I think the PS’s improvement that’s needed is more in lengthening. Both the Personal Story and the Living World plots feel wrapped up far too quickly, our character having a set opinion far too fast. Except with Canach, where we’re delivering death threats a year and a half after his crimes that had good intention.

The biggest issue I feel that The Source of Orr being the climax had was that there was no real attachment for the player to be there – hence the “spotlight stealing”. The character has reason, but not the player. I think this could be mitigated by having the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan showing up earlier a few times before confronting him there – to give a sense of attachment to the enemy. A lot of enemies have this “see once and done” kind of situation – Kudu and Caudecus seem to really be the only counters to this, aside from certain PS C1 enemies that show up once or twice before the final confrontation (e.g., Commander Serentine).

Simply rename the Eye of Zhaitan in A Light in the Darkness and Temple of the Forgotten God (presuming the order is back to its original position) would be enough to establish some sense of a reoccuring villain. Placing him on a ledge in Forging the Pact – unreachable but observing (similar to the first view of Mazdak the Accursed) will further this for those who see him before he silently disappears. Making him the “top dog” of the dragon minions who retreated to The Artesian Waters only after a lot of progress in the invasion of Orr was made.

But ah, I’m blabbing on.

I just hope that if they’re really reworking a lot of the PS, they have something to fix ALL issues. And I speak more than just the obvious dialogue issues or bringing back the Greatest Fear arc.

I mean fixing the issues like how you’re going through the temple of Melandru while it was still a heavily fortified risen fortress, or having an airdrop via airship to Cursed Shore with Zhaitan and hundreds of dragons in the way.

In all honesty, without changing where The Artesian Waters are, and how they’re found, the only solution to fixing some plotholes from the re-arranging is to go back to the original order of story steps.

Slowpokeking.8720:

With Jormag still lack of power to rise, I don’t think Drakkar could turn people’s mind that easily. Even Svanir was corrupted by Jormag through it. Sure it would have been hard to kill but not impossible. The Norn are brave enough to take a challenge.

“With Jormag still lack of power to rise, I don’t think Drakkar could turn people’s mind that easily.”
Glint and the Great Destroyer did not lack power. There is nothing to hint that a champion’s power is reduced because of their Elder Dragons’ state of hibernation.

“Sure it would have been hard to kill but not impossible.”
In general, true, however for the individualistic norn, it may be impossible either way. One person cannot kill dragon champions unless they’re super awesome like Destiny’s Edge or the PC.

“The Norn are brave enough to take a challenge.”
Presuming, of course, they know the challenge even exists.

Zaklex.6308:

Point 1 – really Konig, improper graphic settings, that’s BS and you know it, all you had to do is stand in the middle of the frozen lake, draw the camera back all the way and look down, and there it was, frozen in the lake, the spine and ‘fin-like’ appendages where the arms/legs should have been, it wasn’t even that far under the surface…it was intentional that you could see it from above, and yes, that skeleton in the frozen lake was Drakkar…but that wasn’t widely known or maybe it was, depends on who you talk to, and some people say it isn’t/wasn’t.

Longest sentence ever?

Anyways, you apparently didn’t read the subtle joke in the line. I said CLEARLY see it. :P Slowpokeing said it can be CLEARLY seen.

In all honesty, you have to be looking for it to see it – e.g., you have to look down, through the ice (or look on the world map, which NPCs wouldn’t have).

Slowpokeking.8720:

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/uploads/gallery/album_163/gallery_3318_163_39486.png

Yeah, this interview mentioned the beast had limited power before Jormag’s awakening.

Actually, it just said that Drakkar had limited effect – which is how Jora avoided corruption. That is nothing to do with Jormag’s awakened/hibernation status, but more likely tied to Jormag’s preference of corruption (convert first, corrupt second) – which is hinted in the line “the Sons think this is due to gender, but it may be something else entirely.” Keep in mind that at this time, Jormag’s preference of converting before corrupting rather than the other Elder Dragons’ preference of corrupting to enslave wasn’t known.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Svanir was corrupted because he accepted the offer.

An organized army should be able to take it down, they could just dig out its head and chop it off.

Note the bold.

Even in modern GW2, norn do not have organized armies. They have small hunting parties that’ll consist of less than a dozen.

And even if they brought an organized army – how many of them would be subdued by the mental abilities of Drakkar, thus turning on their once-allies? And if it was a hunting party (far far more likely), who’s to say Drakkar couldn’t turn all of them. Maybe that is how the Sons of Svanir began.

I fail to see how the destruction of two kingdoms after 200 years (which happened after compiling the Flameseeker Prophecies) was “the most obvious outcomes of the obvious actions.”

In fact, while the Prophecies are rather vague, I find it hard to believe that all of the following just happened to be “the most obvious outcome”:

• A nation would become uninhabitable, forcing an exodus.
• A prince will die on said exodus, but the exodus will save the people.
• The undead will attack the living.
• Trusting a “trecherous man” will bring doom.
• A “war against the divine” will occur and the “true seers” revealed.
• “An opening will be given to the disciples of the Unseen. The peaks and valleys of the Shiverpeaks will be painted in blood. At this time, the Ascendants will rise, and the way to the Door will be clear.”
• The “Flameseeker” will force open the Door of Komalie and take control of the titans.
• The Flameseeker would subsequently be killed, and the Door reclosed, and the Chosen would escape from the erupting volcano.

Individually, sure, these are pretty obvious. But together, in the year 272 AE, Glint effectively foretold/predicted:

• The mursaat returning to the world of Tyria from who knows where and gathering a followship, pretending to be divine beings.
• An undead assault led by the Flameseeker, who would open the Door of Komalie before being killed.
• Chosen who would escape the mursaat’s grasp and turn to the desert for Ascension, before being tricked by the Flameseeker to open the Door of Komalie, and subsequently kill and close the Door, surviving even the eruption afterwards.
• The death of Prince Rurik during an exodus from Ascalon, which would be destroyed by magic that was introduced 600 years after the foretelling by an influence that no longer existed in the world for said 600 years after the foretelling.

That’s a bit too much faith on an individual’s abilities (the Chosen) to be “the most incredibly obvious outcomes of the obvious actions.” It’s a bit too much faith on an individual’s precise death (Rurik in the middle of the exodus) to be “the most incredibly obvious outcomes of the obvious actions.”

There is just far too many details told in the Flameseeker Prophecies for me to ever believe that it was just some Isaac Asminov-styled Psychohistory.

I could agree with such if it were fewer specific things (Prince death, Chosen’s survival at the end, Flameseeker’s death), but still the entire prophecies hinged on the notion that the mursaat would return to the world after fleeing it from the Elder Dragons (even if this bit of lore didn’t exist during GW1) and that Abaddon would destroy not one, but two of the human kingdoms of Tyria.

Mada.5319:

So what if he doesn’t have his own motives? So what if he’s just there to support?
Why do people always need to have their own agency to be a part of the story?
He had his story, back in flame & frost, and he’s now made some friends. Friends help each other right? Does he need a reason to help his friends beyond the fact that they are his friends?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

You know, it’s cliche and people don’t like it, but it’s something which is actually . . . realistic. Some people have no other place in life than to lend a hand to those around them. To be part of a team and give the team a boost with their presence or abilities.

I think the core of the problem isn’t “Braham has no agency.” Or however you’d like to phrase that.

The issue is: “Important male characters in the Living World story have no agency." Braham is just prime victim #1.

It is 110% a-o-kay to have a character without agency or special abilities or story importance. In fact, having all characters with such is rather bad, because then everyone’s a special snowflake (while such stories can be good, it usually requires the level of grandmaster storytelling, which Anet lacks – no offense Anet writers, but atm you’re stuck at adept in your writing craftsman level).

But where you have all characters of a specific gender having that, but no character of the other gender having that. That is where the issue is.

Currently, Braham lacks a personal story – he has ever since he left Cragstead. Maybe if Olivia was brought back and that relationship developed (the irony that she left him for a traveling merchant), or Eir was killed and we see how Braham copes with that (seeing him rise into his own place rather than his current state of just drifting aside heroes looking for his big chance for his legend), this would change.

Thing is, unlike Braham, the other biconics have their own story that’s seen continuous progression. Rox had her relations with Rytlock and her coping of her old warband continuously popping up. Taimi has the stunt with Phlunt and the problems of being a child who wants to help adults in a time of war (in S1, she was just an exposition and cuteness device). Kasmeer has the plot of her nobility and ties to Anise. Marjory has Belinda’s death and the mystery of E.

Braham does have his ties with Eir, but that was mostly solved OFF SCREEN (and reduced greatly) by a single act – his story was intentionally NOT told; he had Olivia and Cragstead, but he’s left it without turning back, a story gone/completed; he has his big bro role with Taimi and his friendship with Rox but this has no development – he instantly fell into that place, and hasn’t moved an inch.

Of all the biconics, Braham’s story has either been cut short or lacked all kinds of progress. He literally has no reason to be staying with the group other than being Taimi’s big bro. Taimi wants to learn more about Scarlet. Rox had been trying to impress Rytlock in S1 and now she’s just staying away from charr society while being useful. Marjory has had her ties with Belinda and E, and Kasmeer has her ties with Marjory as well as having nowhere else to go. Braham has no reason to stay. He can leave and all the plots remain the same, just some development on the other biconics.

Canach has more of a personal story told than Braham, and he isn’t a main character.

Shriketalon.1937:

….Tobias, my friend, I disagree with your statement with every fiber of my being.

No one ever has no other place in life than simply existing for a brief moment in another’s story.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And again, that is exactly what my life has been – existing for the sole purpose of making sure other people have an easier time of things.

Only thing I’ll say on this tricky philosophical subject is that you two are saying two different things. Unless I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying, you’re saying that you view your life to be that of helping others. This is different from what Shriketalon is saying, which is that a person exists for more than being a support in a story (which itself is false in the case of fictional characters).

One (Tobias) is helping others, the other (Shriketalon) is being irrelevant to any story that could be told. They’re not the same.

Basically, Shriketalon is saying but yet not saying is that even supporting characters have a story to tell their own – even if it’s nothing but assisting others all their life, that itself is a story for themselves. This does happen – such characters exist only to balance out the roles of the more fleshed out characters (such as comedic relief).