PS: It was great fun to read the manual of GW1 Prophecies! However I couldn’t find a manual for GW2. There’s only the strategy guide…
There isn’t one. Well, there is, but it’s only a single sheet of paper that basically directs you to the GW2 Wiki.
It’s also possible that the Master of Peace will meet his end. He’s surrounded by Mordrem vines in the picture, and the teaser has us going deep in Mordrem vine territory.
And we all know how Anet loves to kill off characters just as they’re beginning to get interesting. Or before they can begin to get interesting.
Another bit of fun theorizing; what beings can currently become Elder Dragons. Now, we know Glint could, it’s theorized her child/egg has the capability, and that Tequatl may be taking over for Zhaitan[or maybe it’s dead?].
Technically it’s theorized that Glint could – in universe. Which if she couldn’t means none could. But lets work on the assumption she could have – by that, then any dragon should be capable of such.
But there are two other possible Elder Dragon candidates I’d like to name: Drakkar, for Jormag, and the Pale Tree, for Mordremoth.
Drakkar and the Pale Tree are not dragons, so we don’t know if they can consume magic like dragons.
IMO, the list is:
For non-dragon, it all depends on if they can regulate magic, but I wouldn’t be surprised if we get:
In all honesty, I don’t want the Pale Tree to become “the next Elder Dragon” unless she’s kittenurping evil mastermind. It puts way too much focus on the sylvari, which has already happened, and the Pale Tree apparently knew of the Antikytheria (supposedly) and yet has been pushing for the sylvari to kill the Elder Dragons – almost as if she’s intending to send Tyria into chaotic Armageddon.
There’s also the Dragons in Shing Jea Isle, Echovald Forest and the Jade Sea….
the “Dragonmoss” plants are just plants that look draconic; Turtle Dragons too, I’d imagine. As far as we can really be sure, only Saltsprays are ‘real’ dragons and even then, we don’t know if they consume magic.
The death of Zhaitan and Mordremoth may be setting up Jade and Forest Elder Dragons ascension
I hope not. Six years of dragons is enough.
Though if this is so, it’d just be Kuunavang and Albax, I’m sure.
Glint’s child is a crystal Dragon and considering how it’s alterations of the Maguuma Wastes may differ from Kralkatorrik due to the fact that the crystals made from Glint’s remaining magic were green and thus her child’s Dragonbrand corruption may also be green.
Glint’s crystals were blue.
Of course considering the Am Fah’s obsession with using the Chalice of Corruption to create Afflicted the chances of a Dragon absorbing that magic and becoming an Plague Elder Dragon is a small possibility.
That ended 250 years ago. The Chalice of Corruption – and the instructions to making them – were destroyed in Factions and Winds of Change respectively. The Afflicted are 100% gone as of Winds of Change – that’s what the first act of that plot was all about.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
My point would be that you cannot ‘misunderstand’ the purpose of the Wyld Hunt in that fashion. Wyld Hunts are meant to be a reason for living and not some quest to pick up 12 helmets from dead orcs. When Caithe says that both Wyld Hunts are finished then the player character should know, absolutely, within the heart, that is true. Trahearne has just told the player what his completed Wyld Hunt feels like too so there should be no doubt.
Anyway that’s my personal opinion and it may be that I’m going to be disappointed. Lets get back on topic.
I do recall an interview in which it was said that sylvari can, indeed, misunderstand the purpose and nature of their Wyld Hunt – and may end up believing that it’s completed, without actually completing it, and believe it so much that they never realize they’re still being called to it.
How does he know that? Why can’t our character realize a momentous change in destiny without being told by Trahearne? To me that is still bad story telling even if that is how the story continues. As I said, I was prepared to be disappointed.
Tuomir didn’t quote the whole thing.
The things we see in our Dream have a way of coming around. Your wyld hunt… Do you feel the call yet?
→ I haven’t for some time, but I feel it now. Is this a new one?
It is the same one. You helped to destroy Zhaitan, but that did not complete your wyld hunt. The next phase is beginning.
→The Elder Dragons…Mordremoth.
Trahearne didn’t know until the PCs told him they felt their Wyld Hunt again.
Can’t E be an illusion created by a powerful mesmer (aka most NPC mesmers) to confuse Jory?
Clearly, E is Kasmeer.
Kasmeer keeps close to Marjory, suggests her for Dragon Bash (and Kasmeer wanted to go to Dragon Bash herself – perfect excuse), is in the Mesmer Collective with ties to the Shining Blade, was a noble in DR so has some motivations there. And she’s been intentionally misleading E as being a male (“Mister E” is Kasmeer’s nickname – Marjory points out that they don’t know whether E is male or female, despite the deep voice and being grabbed by E).
Personally, I hope that isn’t the answer since it is not what we are shown in the Personal Story.
There are known cases of sylvari gaining new Wyld Hunts as well. So the one to kill Mordremoth can just as much be a new Wyld Hunt as it can be the old one (to kill Zhaitan) reactivating and spreading to include Mordremoth.
In the Personal Story, all we have is a Secondborn’s immediate belief that the dragon – with no context – was Zhaitan. And the Pale Tree further suspecting it to be Zhaitan. Neither are certain it is the Wyld Hunt, but suspect it is – and when Zhaitan’s beaten, just like Caithe, your Wyld Hunt feels fulfilled… until The World Summit.
Gadd’s The Six: Being or Playing God also has this issue.
People have pointed out to me that in the end of Asura Chapter 3, Flax says (in all three endings): “We know, Professor. We’ve always known. Preparations are being made to exploit your “discovery” for Rata Sum’s benefit even as we speak." And speculate that Gadd knew of the dragons and that they consume magic somehow and this was how the Arcane Council knew, but hid, this information.
But that would be a huge Asspull – moreso for Gadd, since he died when the asura thought Primordus to be nothing but a statue that spewed out magic (and as such, knew nothing about the Elder Dragons for another 50 years). Vekk can be argued as something he found out after GW1 but didn’t spread for xyz reason, though it is still an asspull.
On the quaggan being driven out – there’s conflicting sources on it. Bullablopp says that the quaggans (his village at least) fled the dragons and ran into the krait in shallower waters.
So I think that the main body of quaggan were forced out by krait, but there were some that were forced out by the DSD directly, later on.
In Echoes of the Past, we see an image of the Master of Peace receiving Glint’s final egg. While different from the GW1 appearance, it was very much egg like and rather crystalline/shiney.
Earlier today, Anet released a new teaser image:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B2Vj8ltIgAAcpPJ.jpg:large
The egg appears to be breaking apart, with an etheric egg-shaped barrier around it.
Does this mean it has been damaged?
Or is it hatching?
If it’s hatching – why now? It’s been in stasis for 7 years, since Glint’s death.
Thoughts?
There is the unresolved question however of why the Sylvari PC fights the Shadow of the Dragon in the dream and this turns into a Wyld Hunt to kill Zaitan. If the Shadow of the Dragon shares something with both Mordremoth and Zaitan then this question has the beginning of answer.
At the end of The World Summit, if you’re a sylvari player you tell Trahearne you feel the call of a Wyld Hunt again – to kill Mordremoth.
It seems that the PC’s Wyld Hunt wasn’t “kill Zhaitan” but “kill the Elder Dragons as they actively invade” (only Zhaitan was actively spreading; Jormag was second most spreading, but this seems to be more the work of the Sons of Svanir rather than Jormag, so the Wyld Hunt wouldn’t trigger on Jormag, apparently).
Yes, after that post, perilisk, I’ve come to see Kralk as Air and Crystal, and Jormag as Spirit and Ice.
The God/Dragon line up does not work even when considering twelve spheres. Who would have Life, War, Illusion? What god has Crystal? Lyssa isn’t “mind” but “illusion” – though you can tie the two, I would tie Kormir’s Knowledge to Mind more (Mordremoth’s mental influence has thus far only gone to “smart” sylvari – engineers, rather). And I really wouldn’t tie Kralkatorrik to “Truth” – Glint was one hell of a liar, after all, and her being a prophet wasn’t about truths but foretelling.
As I see it, the Dragons are:
Fire+Destruction
Ice+Spirit
Plant+Mind
Death+Shadow
Crystal+Air
And no real way to think about the DSD. He corrupts water, sure, but nothign says that’s part of his corruption – just like how Kralkatorrik corrupts the ground and flesh but that’s not likely tied to him. Any Elder Dragon could, really, corrupt anything – we know Primordus can corrupt living beings via an interview, though we’ve yet to see such happen.
I don’t see the DSD as being opposed to the other Elder Dragons either. The thing pushed the krait, quaggan, karka, and largos out of their homes (well, largos seem to be holding onto their home, but still).
An interesting concept but I don’t think so.
While Glint had “unique” telepathy abilities, her magic came in the form of air magic (Aspects, taken from her own crystalline corpse) and crystals (Dragon’s Lair, Crystal Spider, Crystal Guardian, her Crystal-named skills).
The Shadow of the Dragon I don’t think has any tie to shadow – despite its name, there’s nothing dark of it. It’s called Shadow of the Dragon because, originally, it was introduced as being a shadow of the Elder Dragon(s) – before it was revealed to be a champion of Mordy; for the PC, it was thought to be a representation of Zhaitan (which would explain why its head is so similar to Zhaitan’s champions like Tequatl). It also spawns plants with plant attacks, so it is certainly tied to Plant.
As for Tequatl, Zhaitan himself has an affinity for swamps and watery decomposition. To quote the Art of Guild Wars 2: “The breath of the dragons exudes their essence, twisting creatures, landscapes, and all things caught in their exhalation into a mimicry of the dragon’s power. For the undead dragon, Zhaitan, this means his minions and landscapes are images of decay, watery decomposition, undeath, swampy morass, sickness, and pestilence.” So while not part of his two spheres of influence, Zhaitan and his minions do hold some appearance/ability of watery themes.
This also explains the sickened quaggans and wildlife seen in Bloodtide Coast and Sparkfly Fen that are affected by but not corrupted by Zhaitan’s influence and corruption.
Edit: Hmmm…
The Map of the All shows small spheres tied to each larger sphere, and has a medium sphere tied to them too. What if “pestilence” and “watery decomposition” and the like are those smaller spheres (for Zhaitan), while the larger spheres are Death and Shadow? Minor “spheres of influence” if you would.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
Page 348: “A golden thunderstroke broke across Chief Kronon and his warriors.”
Page 355: “The black cloud was spreading with preternatural speed. In heartbeats, it engulfed the sky. Waves of dark magic riled through the belly of the cloud, and red lightning flickered horribly. In the far west, a strange golden beam tore down from the cloud to rake the horizon.”
So it seems Kralkatorrik sends golden lightning to corrupt (to match his golden fiery breath), and red lightning to damage/destroy; his minions are restricted to purple lightning, which houses corruptive energy and is attracted to metal rods that send Branded into a frenzy (per Verim’s Run NPCs).
@Konig: I know the whole parallel universe theory was used to explain multiple servers. I was talking more about where the gods originally came from. That world where they brought the humans from. We already know some of the gods had predecessors if not all of them. It could be these predecessors are the ones that took the power orinally and the power was passed down generations along with the knowledge of how to transfer this power.
And what I was saying was that while multiple Tyrias exist – which your theory holds upon – they all have the same most important individuals and events.
So if Dwayna rose to power in one Tyria… Dwayna rose to power in all Tyrias.
Your theory was “Dwayna and co. come from Tyria A and when Tyria A was dying traveled to Tyria B, where they did not exist.” But by the definition of the multiple world lore we have, this cannot be, for if Dwayna and co. came from Tyria A, then they also came from Tyria B; and if Tyria A began to die, then so would Tyria B.
@Konig: And how exactly do we KNOW that Kralkatorrik’s purple lightning and purple fire is real lightning and fire? We can’t test it with aeromancer insignia, after all.
The lightning is directed towards and conducted by metal probes. That acts like lightning to me.
The question Jeff fielded was, if I recall correctly, quite specific to Abaddon and Kralkatorrik – he was pointing out that purple is used as an ‘eerie’ colour and that colour matching on its own does not necessarily represent a connection. However, this does not mean it can be generalised to mean that there is never a significance when it comes to colour.
Via google search I was able to find a quote of Jeff’s wording, but not the original – it was on Guru2 and their change of urls have messed up with that.
The fact that Abaddon’s minions had that purplish glow and what we’re seeing in the crystal is as far as I know. Coincidental because purple is of course, the color of evil. The fact that there is some similarity— dragon’s contain a lot of power. And the nature of that power comes to the surface. Not all dragon minions are purple in nature. So there’s no definitive link between Abbadon and Kralkatorrik.
Dere ye go.
Just like Mordremoth’s more powerful vines are giving off purple mist, and some risen-plants in Desmina’s Hollows and Arah glow purple, is because purple is the color of evil and the nature of the dragons’ power comes to the surface.
Furthermore, Kralkatorrik’s effects have more in common with mesmer effects than simple colour – many of them look similar to mesmer spells, and those that don’t have similarities with effects generated from creatures that have been said to use mesmer-like magic in the past – for instance, the eye beam of female human Branded is similar to the eye beam used by veteran Riders.
I pass this off as reusing animations. Anet did a lot of this and subtly (or not so subtly) changed things over the months. Branded Air Elementals, for example, didn’t have any purple glow to them until all Air Elementals were given a leg and tail.
Similarly, regarding rangers: I think you missed where I pointed out that the default colour for elementalist arcane effects is a greenish yellow, very close to rangers. […] The professions you’re bringing up as a hole in the theory are actually part of the observations I made to formulate it.
So both Elementalists/Rangers, and Necromancers, are green. That was the plot hole I was trying to point out.
Though mentioning this, I just realized: Mordremoth’s orb was a lime-green color, while Zhaitan’s a Black-green color.
I understand that Kralk is covered in crystals, and that it’s minions are as well, but aren’t those crystals simply chaos crystals? Similar, if I recall correctly, to the crystals in the chaos crystal caverns, if not outright the same.
Nothing links the Chaos Crystal Cavern to Kralkatorrik. And if my memory is correct, the crystals there are completely different in appearance to Kralkatorrik’s crystals. Those in the cavern looked more natural – similar to the crystals we see at various artificer stations, in fact – while Kralkatorrik’s are much smoother, and shimmer very similarly to as if they’re clear casings holding purple glowing liquid (same for Jormag’s ice).
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
Aye, the Master of Peace is heading away from Glint’s lair.
He seems to be heading to Bloodstone Fen. Perhaps his goal is to let it soak up the Bloodstone’s magic.
Aside from the most-trecherous landscape in Tyria (Ring of Fire), it’s the only one we know where it really is. Yes, there’s Bloodstone Caves, but that place seems sealed up – who knows what the asura did with it. Maybe that bloodstone is the source of all this dust spread across the world (cuz it’s a lot of dust).
I’m merely regurgitating what’s said in the 2007 PC Gamer GW special mag which states Sacnoth Valley is the, quote, “far southern domains of the Charr homelands”. From player interpretations of the world map, that looks more central of the Charr Homelands, rather than far south. Just the south of what we could explore in the game (but given that one zone is only half north, and the other is north, I wouldn’t call it “far south” if that’s what was referred to).
Plus we see the charr invading and settling in norn homesteads in Eye of the North.
Until you start a YouTube series, Konig
I’ve contemplated such.
But I think Anet’s writing team needs to get me more invested in the longevity of the game.
And their marketing team.
My mesmer Xangg would probably join…
Just to try to mess with their minds himself. See how good his own mindkittens go when pitted against a mesmer collective. And pin any of his actions – discovered or not – on other mesmers… Chaos. Chaos everywhere.
Then again, he did end up being the future world’s Grand High Sovereign, supposedly.
On an aside, “Mesmer Collective” kind of sounds rather Borgish to me. “You will join the Collective. You have no say in the matter. One of us. One of us.”
Or Mordy is a bit of a ‘negative’ nihilist (I view nihilism takes to forms – those who think ‘nothing matters so I should do whatever I want’ and those who think ‘nothing matters so it should all end’ – the latter I call negative nihilism). Or he seeks to first destroy then recreate the world. Maybe he seeks access to the Mists by imbalancing Tyria, which could theoretically remove his bindings to the world (similar to the theory of the Six Gods being their homeworld’s variety of magic balancers, and fleeing the world when it became ruined as hinted at).
Or a variety of things, really. It could be that he knows Aerin (and Scarlet) – that is, if Mordremoth truly was the force behind them (beyond heavily implied but even with that, Anet doesn’t outright say they were) – cannot destroy everything so he simply pushed them to destroy what they can under the thought of “destroy everything,” but Mordy himself doesn’t want to destroy everything.
Second point, whish was mentioned, is unified dialogue, and this is an issue, indeed. That would make sense if you are Blood Legion and Rox may mention it during dialogue, totally agree, but so far we only had unique lines while interacting with something for engineer profession. Sigh.
Mesmers get a unique line with Braham about the Mesmer Collective that Kasmeer’s a member of, but the PC isn’t.
I think my sylvari got a few unique lines.
I’d be shocked if Doern didn’t give Whisper members unique lines.
The wiki is missing a lot of dialogue – about all that isn’t tied to progressing the story. Which is rather usual when it comes to story steps.
Technically, “we” could think about whatever we want. Our characters’ priority is Mordy. :P
And yeah, I don’t disagree that overall the risen threat has reduced – at least for now. The thought is more of “will it do nothing but dwindle over time, or is there a chance that it can surge up as a threat once more in the future via Zhaitan being replaced?”
The charr would have invaded the Far Shiverpeaks if they weren’t concentrating their main forces on Ascalon and the Khan-Ur’s death threw them into a tenuous civil war/treaty scenario for a thousand years. They only sent a few warbands, which got knocked out by the norn hunting parties, resulting in mutual respect of strength.
If the charr would have invaded the Far Shiverpeaks, would they not have invaded the icy tundra (the texture from EotN’s world map looks more like permafrost landscapes than mountains to me) too?
As for the map change – there were map alterations to the areas unexplored in Prophecies when they added the EotN map, primarily the landscape between Ascalon and the Crystal Desert became less barren and more green, as well as a little less mountainy. The Greater Giant’s Basin was given the river that leads into the delta as well. I think Anet would pass it off more as “humans map the map and because it was not fully explored, some was guesswork” – as it seems the new full world map partially is with the “Not Real” part.
Edit: It equally can be that that map still has inconsistencies. It looks to me like the GW2 world map has the same curves as the EotN map, so the Priory map still has a few inconsistencies.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
I don’t think it’s really showing the lore, mostly just game mech. They no longer have a powerful dragon to create new champions and command all the Risen to perform strikes outside of Orr, the source was cleansed. The Risen Navy weren’t that big of a threat anymore(Do they even exist after that?).
At this point, it’s up in the air. Anet could take it for lore, given that it was a highlight of the update that it all happened with, and it would follow the lore they’ve established before and after (tell us that the numbers will dwindle – we get an update for dwindling numbers but strengthened foe with no story to it – give us a bare-bones story update including and about a mechanical improvement).
Even Teq is nothing compare to Zhaitan. No matter the size, the ability to corrupt and create champions or its influence. Not to say it was killed already.
Is he dead? Or did he just lose a tail? Rox claims he’s dead, but even if she’s truthful – there were a LOT of dragons in the skies with Zhaitan. I doubt all of them were killed.
It has been gathering power in the depths.
It is faster, stronger, deadlier.
It has returned to devour and destroy.
It is called Tequatl the Sunless… and it has evolved.
So Teq mostly went into the depth to drain some power that returned into the core of Tyria after Zhaitan’s death. This could also explain the time gap.
Depths as in the Sea of Sorrows’ depths – or so how I interpret that line.
I doubt he went to the core of Tyria – that would be very deep indeed, and too much risk of running into Primordus and Destroyers. Why would he go to the core of Tyria, when he has a dragon corpse to drain magic from.
Really, given how bare minimum the Tequatl Rising plot was, it’s hard to say.
What’s important to note, however, is that Bobby Stein confirmed that there was a plot and that it tied into the living world’s story. And now, in the living world, we got a hint of a champion becoming ED level – how even dragon champions (so long as they’re the dragon variants) can consume and contain magic – and how dead dragons’ magic seeps back into the world. Tequatl didn’t hit the level of Elder Dragon, but he became stronger.
If Tequatl Rising’s story has any ties into modern plot as Bobby Stein said it did, I think that Episode 5 gave those ties in.
I don’t dislike WP or his videos. I dislike people talking as if he’s absolute fact and the inventor of all the theories he brings up, the finder of all the facts he presents (right or wrong), when really, he’s often getting his materials from reddit and this very forum (and before it died, Guru1/2). Honestly, I wouldn’t be shocked if his fans start claiming he invented the wheel – that’s how blown out of proportion crediting to him goes.
I say WP is a good introductory to the lore, a good means to get people interested in looking more into it, but they need to do that “looking more into it” – else they’re just spouting “facts” which are effectively a 50/50 chance to be either fact or theory.
Doern Velazquez doesn’t seem to be Tyrian, Canthan, or Elonian to me. With the most recent globe, we see trade routes between the Battle Isles and two western ports – one of which is the suspected land for where Utopia would have taken place. Doern could be from one of those two.
Though I suppose it is possible that he is from “New Kryta.”
There were a few norn and asura in Verdant Cascades in Eye of the North – though the establishment was thin, it’s possible some survive there to this day.
I don’t think there were any humans left in the Maguuma beyond the White Mantle. The Shining Blade did return to Kryta during the War in Kryta chapter of Guild Wars Beyond – so there’s no offshoot of Shining Blade there. “New Kryta” seems to be more a series of forts rather than actual towns – a militant bandit ‘nation’ if you will.
We’ve been told that the human kingdom of Kryta extends further west and north than what we see – and that such zones were originally planned but scrapped (this is likely where the bridge in northern Brisban would have led) due to irrelevance to the main plot, and time constraints. Such locations would likely go up the river north of Lake Regent and Lake Doric, as well as around Majesty’s Rest that’s now west of Queensdale/north of Brisban.
For asura, I see them mainly occupying the south of Metrica – that area was explored in Eye of the North, while west of Metrica/Rata Sum was not (modern Rata Sum more or less centralizes in GW1’s Magus Stones – GW1’s Rata Sum is modern day Soreen Draa).
Charr lands are known to extend both north and east. In GW1, Sacnoth Valley was the far southern domains of charr territory. And we know the Blood Citadel (HQ of the Blood Legion) lies east of the Blazeridge Mountains.
It’s not because we haven’t found the answer yet, that we can’t find the answer.
You said it yourself: “at least, not with our current tools”.
This does not mean the All is fundamentally beyond explaining. It just means we can’t do it just yet.But anyway, clearly we are never going to agree on this, and I’m very tired of being the only rational person in a sea of pseudoscientists/neo-mysticists.
But it looks to me that you just did agree. The All can be defined, but the way the asura are going about it is simply not the proper way to go about defining it. Which is what I got out of Ogden too – the asura just have the wrong mindset for how to learn the Eternal Alchemy/Antikytheria/the All to be able to define it.
On to other matters. I have a question about the elder dragons. Why are the six dragons all concentrated on such a small portion of the globe? We know Tyria, the planet, is actually quite large compared to the continent. Why are they all so close together?
We mostly don’t know, but I answered my theory on this question earlier in the thread. In short: I think it would be the Bloodstones.
Only 1 dragon (Kralkatorrik) has a heavy known influence during the previous rise with Tyria, and 2 others have minor influences (Jormag and Primordus); the other two that are near Tyria now (Zhaitan and Mordremoth) only have their locations of hibernation as the only evidence of their interaction with Tyria during the previous rise.
And Jormag wasn’t even in our game map (GW1 or GW2) but north of it – near the arctic sea, which if you look at the world map textures, is FAR north. Like, wtf far north. It seems to me that Jormag pulled a Kralkatorrik when he woke and flew some ways south to push the norn south in the four years after he woke.
If we believe that the status of an Eldar Dragon can be claimed by someone else, after the original Vessel has been destroyed, then it would be something that is inheired.
That means we would have to stop thinking about the EDs as singular entities but as a force of nature . However another thing could be that they are actually beings of pure energy, that take over a body for certain needs.
Hmmm, I disagree. But partially.
Under such a notion, you can take the Elder Dragons – as well as the Six Gods – to be a combination of two things:
First, you have the individual. Dwayna, Grenth, Balthazar, Melandru, Lyss, Ilya, Dhuum, Abaddon, Kormir, Abaddon’s unnamed predecessor; Primordus, Zhaitan, Jormag, Mordremoth, Kralkatorrik, and “Scleritethin” (what I am calling the DSD).
Then you have the power – or equally proper: the role – that they hold. This would be the spheres of influence.
The individuals can be viewed as super powerful beings – mortals that have become gods, if you would – while the power/role, the spheres of influence, are the true forces of nature.
To bring it down to scale, think of it like Storm from X-Men. She is an individual, who is capable of controlling forces of nature that is weather. In the same respect, Mordremoth is an individual, who is capable of controlling the forces of nature that is mind and plant.
That is my interpretation of this Antikytheria/The All/Eternal Alchemy.
If we aply some energy therorem here, then energy is not consumed, but transfered into another form.
What if the ED consume magic, to replenish their own Energy? Like reloading a battery or something similiar.So far we do not know for sure why they eat energy anyway.
This seems to be more or less true, actually. We have no evidence to point out that magic has a state of entropy – as such, it simply, for all we know, changes location and form: from ambient magic in the world, to magic within the dragon, to corrupted magic in minions and/or to ambient magic in the world.
If magic has a state of entropy, or a state of breaking the cycle, I would argue it to be “dragon energy” – which by all appearances, is the Elder Dragons’ respective corrupting magic (it cannot simply be “magic from Elder Dragons, corrupting or not” as then all magic would be dragon energy).
Could it be possible that whatever world the six gods came from also had Elder Dragons that balanced the magic in their world?
That would be what the Six Gods’ predecessor would be – if they themselves are not originals.
My theory is: The six gods along with the humans came from another Tyria, sort of like a parallel universe within the Mists. It being the parallel of current Tyria, it also had magic that was balanced by their own Elder Dragons. The six gods could have originally gotten their godly powers from their world’s Elder Dragons by finding a method of transferring the power a Elder Dragon has to themselves.
While multiple Tyrias have been confirmed as creations of the Mists, it is stated tat all major events and important figures are the same. This includes the gods. This is ANet’s way of putting the servers into lore – so for however many servers there are, there are that many Zhaitans, Jormags, Kormirs, Dwaynas, and Dhuums.
The purple fire, purple lightning, and so on that you mention are associated with mesmers, which in turn are associated with Lyssa. Furthermore, while many mesmer skills look like lightning, strictly speaking, they’re chaos energy, not lightning. Killing an enemy with Spatial Surge doesn’t generate the ‘electrocution’ animation, for instance.
As you said: mesmer lightning is not actual lightning; but with the Branded and Kralkatorrik it is actual lightning. Similarly, the effects of Branded fire and mesmer fire are very much different – as one is literal fire that’s purple, while the other is illusionary fire.
I don’t think linking the two just because of a shared color holds much weight. Jeff Grubb was once asked if there was a tie between Kralkatorrik and Abaddon due to that shared color, and he responded with “purple is the color of evil.”
Of course, this gives a potential subtle insight on Lyssa and Mesmers…
But still, there’s strong difference between the mesmer’s ability and the Branded’s while the only similarity is color.
Unfortunately, it’s hard to tell whether such effects from Branded count as chaos or electricity, but in a lot of cases they behave more like chaos to me (with the exception of branded air elementals as a special case, of course).
To me, it’s only a single case: Branded Plants in Lowland Burns create a Chaos Storm effect around them. But all other lightning, and the Brandstorm, and Branded Air Elementals all appear to be lightning.
It’s also based somewhat on an observation that the schools of magic do seem to form a spectrum. Using the bloodstone terms, denial is purple, preservation is blue, and aggression defaults to green. Destruction is harder to pick because usually it’s used to conjure an element… but something to note is that cases in GW2 where an elementalist skill is using magical force directly rather than conjuring an element, such as with the arcane skills, it’s a slightly greenish yellow – close to, but yellower than, the ranger colour.
Thieves seem to use denial, but their color is black/red/gray.
Rangers seem to go with elementalism – ergo destruction – but is green.
I don’t think there’s much weight in this argument.
Personally, I don’t put too much stock in the facets to understand the gods in their totality. They are, after all, facets - they represent a facet of the god, but not necessarily one of the defining elements.
Technically, all of their “domains” are mere facets of their power. Death is but a mere facet of Grenth – as is ice, darkness, judgment, etc.
Didnt Scarlet say that chaos magic and Elder Dragon energies are the same (in the Thaumanova fractal)?
No, she said that the Inquest confused dragon energy for chaos magic.
As Ellen Kiel says after further research:
→ What do you want people to know?
“Just the basics: the facility was intended to study chaos magic, but the Inquest and their so-called “specialist,” Scarlet, pushed things in dangerous new directions."
→How so?
“They claimed there was a link between the Thaumanova’s chaos energy and Elder Dragon energy. They ramped things up past the point of safe operation, and the reactor melted down.”
Traditionally Chaos is considered to be the original state of the world before creation. Pretty akin to the Mists in the GW universe. Raw, unrefined and unpredictable magic that who knows what it will do.
From my gathering, magic is refined into three forms of magic/energy: Chaos, Light, and Dark. Chaos comes from Thaumanova – Light and Dark energies were mentioned as the power behind the Prime Hologram (light) and Ultraviolet Hologram (dark). This coincides with the damage types of GW1 (Light/Holy, Dark/Unholy, and Chaos) which were related, usually, to specific professions (Monk/Paragon, Necromancer, and Mesmer respectively); these professions are suspected to be Preservation, Aggression, and Denial schools respectively.
Take that for what you will.
At this point i must wonder: had we not associated illusions and chaos the same color palette, purple/violet, would we ever link them together (Lyssa aside)?
Arguably yes simply due to chaos magic being a trait of mesmers in GW2, and a major damage type in GW1.
I forgot to mention but yeah, I was thinking of ‘complete S2E5’ for access requirements.
Question for König:
Why would Mordremoth want to “destroy the world”?
He feeds on the world, like the other dragons do. Destroying the world would destroy his own home, his own food supply.
I don’t think we have enough information to discern this.
All we have is Aerin’s rambling.
Food for thought:
What if in the case of an Elder Dragon dying and the magic going to one of its dragons, the dragon (in this case Tequatl) continues to serve its maker…
In such a scenario, the minions would still cry out the Elder Dragon’s name (in this case, Zhaitan), but as the dragon cannot speak in modern languages, we never heard the new Elder Dragon speak, thus to the races, the new Dragon becomes “Zhaitan”.
In other words, ‘Zhaitan’ (and the other Elder Dragon names) may not be the true name of the modern ED, but the first to alter mentality in those it corrupted. We just thought it was Zhaitan, because the minions treat the corrupting force as Zhaitan. The Zhaitan we killed could have been a dragon champion from ages past. Which could then explain whyhe looks undead – not because he’s the Elder Death Dragon, but because he is not the original Elder Death Dragon.
The minions, even the current Elder Dragon, could just see the current Elder Dragon as ‘the strongest champion’ and not Zhaitan, etc.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
They’re all fakes.
Only you have the real one.
But seriously, I just pass such things off as “non-existent in lore”. Only one of the uniquely named items exist.
Other players are just random adventurers, mercenaries, whathaveyou.
That size for the tooth is actually, to me, the size appropriate for Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik.
People don’t realize it due to distance and the ship’s own size, but Zhaitan is huge.
Zhaitan had multiple tails cut off, one was huge but one was small too – and I think it’s the small one that is in the Priory basement.
So that’s why I think it’s likely safer to read Lyssa’s influence over ‘Illusions’ is in reality influence over ‘Minds’. Illusions are simply that, tricking the mind into thinking something is there when it’s not.
However, it is Zhaitan – not Mordremoth – that makes use of illusions; and it is Jormag who does more direct mental mindscrews.
Mordremoth’s sphere of mind seems to be very different from the fields of magic that mesmers – who focus on illusions and mental mindscrews and telepathy – utilizes. Both cases of mind-messing Mordy has, Scarlet and Aerin, are both related to technological individuals; so I think linking Mind to Knowledge is more likely.
I do, however, agree with the notion that spheres of influence names can be changed/altered.
What puzzles me is the whole Tower of Nightmares episodes. Scarlet’s creation used a poison gas that invokes hallucinations in everyone. And she was apparently serving Mordremoth. Is this what Mordremoth’s mind affecting powers are like? In the form of pollen in the air, that causes hallucinations? I wonder if there are some parallels between the Tower of Nightmares, and the abilities of Mordremoth. It’s also note worthy that despite his sphere of influence being the mind, we haven’t seen a whole lot mind affecting things since his rise. Not from his minions for sure.
I’ve noted quite a few parallels thus far – the giant ‘minion manufacturing plant’ at the end of Caithe’s Reconnassiance Squad story step looked very similar, to me, to the Tower of Nightmare’s heart (the thing we pumped full of the antitoxin), which was said to have been sentient. But there’s been no hallucinations yet.
But at the same time, beyond Aerin and Ceara, we haven’t seen direct cases of (potential) corruption. Mind may be how he corrupts, rather than how he assaults.
An additional note: maybe it’s even possible to fit the races into this “6 magic spheres” structure. After all, according to the conversation with Scholar Trueclaw , there may have also been 6 (main) races fighting the dragons in the previous cycle. Maybe each race (both then and now) leans towards one of the 6 magic spheres?
Actually, Trueclaw says there were five races against six Elder Dragons.
Actually… I don’t know that we can say there are just six (or twelve). The historian’s quote is “All those other circles are spheres of influence and powerful magic.” There’s a lot more than twelve circles up there- I count at least 42, overlapping each other to various degrees.
True, it would just be the spheres for the Elder Dragons. There could be more out there – including spheres of influence for the gods.
I don’t think the dragons were “bad” because of their “personality”, but because of the power behind them, they are like natural’s forces, if we replace them with another, that one might become the same over time.
I disagree.
The comparison to natural forces is always a Tyrian’s viewpoint on the Elder Dragons that they know nothing about. Or a comment about how they balance magic.
The Elder Dragons do show to have specific and unique goals and personalities, even if we can only grasp straws at what they are in some cases.
As Marjory puts it: the Elder Dragons may just be too different to understand the races and/or care about them. Glint, however, was able to understand and care. So she could have been different entirely if able to replace an Elder Dragon.
Makes you wonder what all those extra circles are for. Lesser dragons? Champions? Minor aspects of magic?
I’d guess “minor aspects of magic”.
(Also, I think Mrs Thorn may be onto something there. It’s worth noting that Balthazar’s rival Menzies is known as the Lord of Destruction, which gives him similar aspects to Primordus, although Menzies’ minions are of course very different to Destroyers.)
It should also be noted, then, that Grenth is associated with Destruction too (ambient dialogue in DR). As is Balthazar (EotN Facet).
One of the things that bothers me about the “Tyria is imbalanced without the EDs” theory is simply that I don’t see an imabalance after Zhaitan’s death. Zhaitan was defeated two years ago and aside from Tequatl getting a mechanics update (which is suggested to be lore, but it’s a single thing) and another functional update (increasing the size of some risen models to better communicate their animations) I have seen almost no change in the parts of Tyria which would represent Shadow or Death.
If Tyria is out of balance, how is the Living World communicating with us to show us the spheres of Shadow and Death are out of balance without Zhaitan? Wouldn’t necromancers (death magic) and thieves (shadow magic) sense something about a change in the world’s balance? Wouldn’t there be a rise in shadowy or undead creatures?
Tyria has been rather peaceful for the last two years. Primordus, Kralkatorrik and Jormag have done squat aside from what they were already doing. Mordremoth would likely still be sleeping if it weren’t for Scarlet. Aside from Scarlet’s mess and the Consortium upsetting a few karka, Tyria has been looking pretty good these days.
If killing an Elder Dragon causes an imbalance in the world, where is the imbalance caused by Zhaitan’s defeat?
It takes, supposedly, 10,000 years for magic in the world to go from the “nearly gone” state to the “very high” state.
I think it would take more than two years for an Elder Dragon’s magic to be depleted when said Elder Dragon was consuming magic for ~100 years, excluding any magic given to him by potentially awake champions from the previous dragonrise (the Giganticus Lupicus and The Maw are two possibilities) feeding magic to Zhaitan.
We may not see it yet – we may never see it if the magic normally consumed by Zhaitan ends up consumed by another Elder Dragon (nothing says that the Elder Dragons are limited to their two spheres, or cannot repurpose magical energy from one sphere into another) or by Tequatl (which seems to be the case).
And technically, Jormag had indeed increased his pressure on the Tyrian races in the past two years.
Okay, crazy question as I tend to not log in at all… but what if Shadows is actually referring to Menzies sphere of influence? In GW1, there actually was no Darkness or Shadow affiliation with the Gods that I know of. Having checked the old wiki, the closest we get is Menzies. And while he may not be worshiped by Humans as a God, he is the brother of Balthazar, and could theoretically have similar power.
Grenth was, indirectly, tied to darkness just as necromancy was.
Menzies is never said to be a god, so I’ve always likened him to be akin to Mad King Thorn – a very powerful, and very old, spirit that leads other spirits (Shadow Army).
It should be noted thatb eyond the Shadow Army, Menzies has no ties to darkness. He’s the Lord of Destruction, but that’s all really.
This to me links her not only with Illusions (which I personally read as Mind but I think that’s a fairly debatable topic) but some kind of Energy. While I’m hesitant to just say “MAGIC” like a dweeb, because all the Elder Dragons consume all kinds of Magic, there seems to be a connection with the manipulation of this force and a sphere of influence. Would this give some kind of Correlation with Kralkatorrik whom we see plenty of lightning strikes (a form of energy) and branded elementals (air elemental skins)? This is of course, assuming you can consider Energy a sphere of influence.
“Energy” I think is a bit too generic of a concept, and too commonly replaced with ether – raw magical energy. Which all Elder Dragons consume.
Amongst the gods, the god most tied with lightning would be Dwayna – air magic being within her domain as goddess of air.
Also, we saw in the transference of power from Abaddon to Kormir that “Secrets” became “Truth”.
Fun fact:
In GW1, Kormir is referred to as the goddess of secrets a few times; she’s also called goddess of knowledge, goddess of truth, and goddess of truth and knowledge.
Similarly, via out of game lore, Abaddon was related to wisdom, not secrets, before his fall.
Another thought concerning the element of Life or Preservation. This element is usually associated to be the polar opposite of Death and Destruction, rightly so. However when it comes to undead creatures, we usually immedietly jump to the conclusion that undeath is connected to Death. I cant imagine why, though. Its un-death. If anything, undeath is the unnatural preservation of something that should be dead. Death is as much about change as Fire, the transition between stages, while Preservation and Necromancy are about keeping the status quo permanently if possible.
By this viewpoint, the difference between a healer and a necromancer is mostly who, what and why they practice their arts on. While a healer uses aspects of preservation and restoration on the living to keep them alive, their own souls in their own body, healthy and all, a necromancer would use other alien (or the original subjects) souls/spirits/raw life-force to animate magically preserved dead matter, be it a fresh corpse, or a construct made of flesh (GW minions) or something else (golems).
In GW1, the school of magic that necromancy seemed tied with was aggression. Many of their skills focused on benefitting or triggering upon but not preventing movement – aggression is the active of fierce movement, or inciting movement. Undeath can be used as “magically preserved dead matter” – but also as making inanimate matter move.
Mesmers, on the flip side, focused more on preventing or hindering movement – hence the thought of tying it to Denial.
I still disagree with your position that nobody knew where the roar came from. Here’s why.The first thing that comes to mind is that in our conversations with the Pale Tree, it seems heavily implied that she knew from the beginning. There fore someone knew.
There was a comment by a dev – I think Angel McCoy – in which it was stated that the roar was heard, and those who deal with the dragons knew it was a dragon’s roar, but they didn’t know who.
The Pale Tree was an exception, and for some reason, she kept quiet. If anyone else knew the roar was Mordremoth waking, they also kept quiet.
You probably have a good idea of where his final resting place is.
If people knew where Mordremoth was sleeping, you could bet your kitten that they would have tried killing it before it woke up.
Keep in mind that each dragon seems to represent TWO aspects, not one. And often one is a seemingly neutral aspect (fire, water, ice, shadow, plants, crystals) and one is a negative aspect (mind, destruction, death, corruption, temptation).
I think that both spheres of influence are ‘negative’ in the hands of the Elder Dragons, but at the same time, both can be ‘positive’.
Glint and Kralkatorrik is the perfect example as you point out. Kralkatorrik’s crystals are twisted, malevolent, and come from burnt appearance – they’re purple which has been attributed as “the color of evil” in the GWverse (hence why we’re seeing purple glows amongst the more powerful Mordrem, and why Abaddon was purplish). Glint’s crystals are transparent, blue, smooth and more natural looking. Kralkatorrik’s lightning and storms darken the sky, twisting the things they touch; Glint’s air aspects are bright.
When Grenth rose to power, he borrowed water from the defeated Abaddon, but his aspect became ice instead.
Grenth was the prince of ice and sorrow before becoming a god, per the Orrian History Scrolls.
But I don’t think we should see the Elder Dragons as exact opposites to the gods. What I think what we are seeing, is different ways to use the many aspects of magic. Good versus evil. The Elder Dragons embody all the bad and destructive things of magic, while the gods embody the good (mostly). There have of course also been bad gods, who used magic for evil too.
What you just described is opposites. Same things but different manners of usage. Good and evil are opposites, and you suggest they’re the same magic.
But that comparison, which is no different than the typical “gods and dragons are the same” speculations, fall short after 2 or 3 comparisons.
These do not make sense.
Kralkatorrik is clearly crystal and chaos.
I cannot really see chaos in Kralkatorrik, no matter how I look at it.
I just see purple fire, purple lightning, and beams of purple light. In his minions.
We now know that Gods and Elder Dragons both have two “dominions” (I’ll use this word from now on in absence of a better one) each.
So we should have a total of 12 dominions for the Gods and 12 for the Elder Dragons.
Technically, we don’t know how many spheres of influence (the Priory’s term for your “dominions”) the Six Gods have each. They are attributed with at least 5 things each, most often.
Ideally they would be the same 12 or else this theory loses its meaning, so I’m going ahead and taking that for granted.
This I think is fallicious, as attempts have been made many times without success. With the dragons having 2 spheres of influence known, this remains impossible.
We also know that Abaddon water dominion shifted to Lyssa after his defeat.
Technically, this is only half-true.
While Abaddon was imprisoned, Grenth took over a quite a bit of the knowledge/secrets aspect – see House Durheim of the Kurzicks, for instance, whom are praised for knowledge of ancestry, and look to Grenth.
Lyssa had water even before Abaddon’s death. In Orr, her ancient temple is over Mirror Bay; in Vabbi, she had a temple over “Lyss’s Mirror”. The concept of reflective water is where Lyssa’s ties to water lie, and though she was never called the goddess of water before Abaddon’s death, she had this connection to reflective water before – and during – Nightfall.
Finally, we know (I don’t remember if this is confirmed or not) that Grenth had control over Ice before taking Dhuum’s place.
Dhuum and Grenth both had a singol element, respectively Death and Ice.
I’m not sure what you’re saying here – that Grenth was a god of ice before he overthrew Dhuum? If that’s what you mean, then that’d be false. He was a half-god who was referred to as the Prince of Ice and Sorrow. He then took over the mantle of god of death, becoming a full-fledged god.
I’d go as far as saying that there could have been more than six dragons before, they clashed and the six remaning are the winners.
This is something I had theorized this possibility in the past before the Antikytheria concept was presented. I had, when first reading this, thought to be debunked, but I suppose as you point out that’s not entirely true.
What happened to all the dragons? Currently it seems like the Elder Dragons just happened to be on Tyria first with the natural ability to absorb magic and things naturally followed from there. So they’re like dinosaurs that didn’t die out. But I’m wondering if they directly or indirectly caused the death of all other dragons, cause dragons happen to be few and far between (even though the seem like apex predators and wound be pretty numerous).
A long standing theory I’ve hard was a war amongst the dragon race, which led to its (near) extinction.
Theoretically, it may be possible for multiple dragons to maintain magic of a single sphere of influence – in modern times, this may be managed by Elder Dragon and dragon champions (something akin to a 70:30 magical retention relation, perhaps).
Second, what is meant by chaos, in terms of too much magic? Will the planet explode outright, or will we end up in a situation where every ambient creature has the power to blow up mountains, and rip the earth asunder?
I’d imagine a scenario akin to Thaumanova, personally. The place just becomes seeped in magical radiation, hazardous to life, with unpredictable results.
The Tyria in the center of the diagram is the world or the continent? Cos what I don’t understand is that if we are talking about the world why are all 6 dragons so close to each other? We can now see the map of the world and is quite big, so why are they all around the continent of Tyria? If we talking about the continent only what does that mean? That the rest of the world does not have magic or that there are other 6 dragons circling around other continents? Or is there some other thing that I’m missing?
My theory has and continue to be the Bloodstone.
Kralkatorrik during the previous rise seems to have had heavy influence over what is now Orr (Glint was freed from his control in Arah), the Crystal Desert (he bled there during battles during the previous dragonrise), and Blood Legion Homelands (where he fell to sleep); Primordus had wars with the dwarves, though location unknown; and Jormag had some influence with dwarves and the far shiverpeaks, but that influence is limited to Drakkar and the Sanguinary Blade.
Zhaitan and Mordremoth have next to no known influence in the locations of their hibernation during the previous dragonrise. Jormag awoke just off the world map, and the DSD seemingly woke near the krait (or alternatively, assaulted the krait ~100 years after waking).
I suspect that the five ED near Tyria were attracted by the Bloodstone – the last known magic in the world – while the DSD was attracted by the krait obelisks, which function akin to the Bloodstones – presuming that the krait were indeed around during the previous dragonrise.
I think there is somewhere that it’s said that the gods were drawn to Orr specifically, but I can’t remember exactly where.
Talking to Trahearne at the end of Cathedral of Silence story step, as a non-charr (or at least, as a human or sylvari).
To my knowledge the Mursaat-Seer war was quite a constant conflict that was put aside for a time to fight the dragons along with the other elder races, and was reignited after the mursaat turned tail and retreated from the world.
We really have no true indication of when the war happened other than ‘while the Tome of Rubicon was being written’. Thing is, after the dragons went to sleep, the musaat were already gone from the world for milleniums.
Best guess I have is that the war is the “betrayal” – we have no indication that there was conflict between them before the supposed five race alliance. Per the conversation with Randall Greyston:
-> Weren’t the Seers and mursaat enemies?
“Indeed. They worked together once, but the mursaat betrayed the other races and fled from the world, returning as the Unseen Ones.”
If we put in the idea that Champions like Tequattle are able to become the new Eldar Dragons in the future, then we have to dismiss the thought of them being a physical being but existing as energy or on a different plane.
Not quite sure why you say this, given that even though Kralkatorrik is described in Edge of Destiny as “more magical than physical”, the Elder Dragons seem to be very physical, and all dragons consume magic. Glint included, as we’ve known since Bazaar of the Four Winds.
So when the dragons return to the dream the gods wake up or return and vice versa? It’s a very yin and yang thing to me.
No, both would be awake at the same time by theory – it’s just that while the Elder Dragons are about in Tyria, the Six Gods’ duty of balancing magic somewhere else.
But Kormir required a gift from the five gods before she could absorb Abaddon’s power.
[…]
Considering that Kormir was capable of containing Abaddon’s power and ascended to god status as a human, I think we are thinking to narrowly by only considering dragons as potential candidates to replace an Elder Dragon. Assuming the replacement could ideally be related to the spheres of an Elder Dragon they replace, the Pale Tree might make an ideal candidate to replace Mordremoth. I don’t think Elder Dragons are technically the same species as dragons like Glint or Kunnavang. I suspect Kunnavang is more closely related to my pet river drake than she is to Jormag or Zhaitan. In that sense you might also have the Great Dwarf replace Primordus and Glint’s offspring replace Kralkatorrik.
Unlike humans (such as Kormir), dragons can naturally consume magic. This makes them ideal balancers of magic, since they consume and exude magic as naturally as breathing.
The Pale Tree might be capable of such… but at the same time, she might not of. As you said, Kormir was given a gift by the gods to absorb Abaddon’s magic. Presuming that’s what the gift was (all we saw/heard were words, after all).
If dragons by their very nature consume magic and store it, and Elder Dragons are really just the most ancient dragons that lived for very long and basicly became the (governors of the) magic they consumed, it stands to reason that time=power. Glint may have been old enough to gather enough magic in time, especially if she survived the Elder Dragons in this era.
If dragons by nature could consume massive amounts of magic immedietly (like Kormir absorbed Abaddon’s power and how we now think that the baby dragon would be able to take charge of Zhaitan’s/Mordremoth’s power), I think they just would. By that proxy the first to awaken would have gained all.
Keep in mind that the Elder Dragons must consume magic that exist across the world.
Kormir, on the other hand, absorbed magic that was in one centralized location.
Glint had time, but was in a magicless world for a long time; it’s entirely possible that she was starving for the first few hundred years.
If this is the case, then I could see there being the following areas of focus for the gods:
Dwayna: Weather, Life
Balthazar: Fire, Strength
Melandru: Growth, Earth
Grenth: Death, Darkness
Lyssa: Illusion, Chaos
Kormir: Mind, Secrets?This compares to the following possible sets for the dragons:
Primordus: Fire, Earth
Jormag: Weather, Strength
Zhaitan: Death, Darkness
S-Dragon: Secrets?, Life?
Kralkatorrik: Chaos, Illusions (note that Glint has powerful illusionary powers, even if we don’t see much of that from Kralky. Crystals are also able to make optical illusions just as water can…)
Mordremoth: Growth, Mind
If we limit the Six Gods’ spheres of influence to two, then I would link them to their Spirits of Action name, and their Eye of the North Facet – thus getting:
Abaddon/Kormir: Knowledge; Spirit
Balthazar: War; Destruction
Dhuum/Grenth: Death; ??? (Darkness?)
Dwayna: ??? (Life? Air?); Existence
Lyssa: ??? (Beauty?); Illusions
Melandru: ??? (Nature?); Creation
We don’t know how the norn refer to Dwayna, Lyssa, and Melandru, and the EotN facet for Grenth is death, leaving those four with only 1 sphere to go from. Darkness seems to be something that could be related to both Dhuum and Grenth, though loosely for both, and I’d imagine Life, Beauty, and Nature to be Dwayna, Lyssa, Melandru by the norn respectively, as they are often the first of the two things most associated with the goddesses.
Interestingly, Existence could be argued to be another way of saying Life (thus what is Dwayna’s second? Air, I’d bet, given that after Life, that’s the most common association.
Similarly, Creation can coincide with “Growth”, which Melandru’s often referred to.
Then going towards the Dragons, we have:
Zhaitan: Death; Shadows (Shadows and Darkness can easily be the same)
Mordremoth: Plant; Mind (Mind and Knowledge can easily be the same)
Primordus: Fire; ??? (Destruction?)
Kralkatorrik: Crystal; ??? (Air?)
Jormag: Ice; ??? (Spirit? – a lot of Jormag’s stuff deals with spirits and the Mists)
“Scleritethin”: ??? (Water?); ???
If one presumes a partial overlap, rather than a full overlap, we see that Kormir overlaps halfway with Mordremoth and Jormag; Balthazar and Grenth could overlap completely with Primordus and Zhaitan respectively – if Balthazar were Destruction (in the form of war) and Fire, and Primordus Fire and Destruction; and Dwayna and Kralkatorrik could have a partial overlap.
But then the similarities would cease.
As always, trying to line up god to dragon perfectly, does not work. But also as always, similarities and overlapping occurs – a halfway overlap, specifically.
Hence my belief that the Six Gods (including predecessors) were basically the human homeworld’s variation of the Elder Dragons. They would have different-but-similar spheres of magic.
I’ve been avoiding responding to this thread as I was out of town and wanted to give a good response after I saw it get a lot of length posts.
Three of the magical schools do line up nicely to the gods – monks/guardians to Dwayna (although Balthazar also has a stake), Mesmers to Lyssa, and necromancers to Grenth. Elemental magic, however, is spread out among most of the gods and most of the dragons as well. The only god that doesn’t currently have a stake in elemental magic is Kormir, and among the dragons, Zhaitan and arguably Mordremoth.
Now, any comparison between magical spheres as shown by the dragons and gods would require there to be additional schools of magic that aren’t known to mortals. With this being the case, it’s probably not too much of a stretch that there is actually seven schools – six that come from external sources (the six orbiting spheres) and one that represents the magic of the world itself (elementalism). This would explain why the other schools are all mystical and otherworldly to a certain degree while elementalism remains firmly based in the physical.
You’re lining up professions, however, and not the schools. By your argument, the “natural magic of the world” would be the school of Destruction – as Elementalists were confirmed to use the Destruction school pre-release.
That seems like an odd combination to me.
Though this theory would explain why the jotun think elementalism to be primitive magic.
Similarly, while Lyssa is more focused on illusion while Kralkatorrik may be more inclined towards chaos magic, the fact that both draw from the ‘purple’ end of the magical spectrum may in fact be significant, and overall the overlap between the two meant that mesmerism came out intact.
As brought up in other threads since, I don’t see much chaos with Kralkatorrik – or anything, beyond the color purple, lining up with Lyssa.
As I mentioned in the other thread, I think Kralkatorrik’s two spheres of influence is crystal and sky/air (lightning, golden breath – similar to sunlight – and turning into a sandstorm (combination of small crystals + fierce winds); then the three aspects of Glint: sun, wind, lightning).
This would line Kralkatorrik up halfway with Dwayna, both being tied to air magic.
my (simplified) opinion….
I think its referencing the fact that the universe is a complex machine, a computer (eternal alchemy) :::
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism
And here, I am trying to make sense of that complex machine. To a degree.
Killing Zhaitan wouldn’t have made all risen drop dead. In Arah explorable, we even see how they think Zhaitan is still alive – that’s how much dragon corruption messes with the victims’ minds. Because they think “Zhaitan lives” – they continue spreading corruption, fighting the ‘good fight’, and so forth.
Their numbers would slowly dwindle (a point Trahearne mentions in the cinematic upon returning to Fort Trinity after killing Zhaitan: “With Zhaitan defeated, the corruption it wrought can be undone. The dragon’s undead minions that still infest Tyria will now gradually be exterminated. One day soon, that plague will be but a memory. ")… unless the champions gather a lot of magic and keep on spreading the corruption.
The update was reducing the number of mobs in Orr, yes, but also made individuals tougher – particularly the various champions (as in lore-based dragon champions, not mechanical champions, though that as well).
And then we get Tequatl Rising… Which, I may add, explicitly occurred in 1326 AE – nearly a year after Zhaitan’s defeat.
And now we’re told that dragons may be capable of becoming Elder Dragons if they consume enough magic.
I’ve been seeing a lot of ties to the Tower of Nightmares in the Mordrem.
And even more similarities pop up as you start trying to relate the Nightmare to Mordremoth.
So rather than the Toxic Alliance being ‘immune’ to Mordremoth, I think theyr’e pre-corrupted by Mordremoth via Scarlet.
The plot hole is that the gods knew that the Elder Dragons existed. They left us a scroll (according to Ogden) with the names of the Elder Dragons. So why would they first bring humans to a world inhabited by these monsters, and then leave before the dragons awoke, thus leaving us to be dragon food? That is a plot hole.
You presume that the Six Gods knew of the dragons before bringing humanity.
They left long before the dragons awoke. Perhaps the Six Gods didn’t think the dragons would even awaken again. After all, the Bloodstone was regulating magic in the world well enough at the time.
Frankly, if the Elder Dragons are a threat to them, then sooner is always better than later.
Who says that the Elder Dragons are a threat to the Six Gods?
Other than an asura who was beyond egotistical, narcissistic, and pretentious even by asura standards, who couldn’t possibly know of the existence of the Elder Dragons, or the fact they consume magic, yet somehow wrote a book on the fact.
The Forgotten are now once more reaffirmed to have come from the Mists. The Forgotten’s magic is immune to the Elder Dragons’ corruption – and can even revert it (partially). Who’s to say that the Six Gods, whom are said to have brought the Forgotten (though this is still up to debate), and who definitely come from the Mists, do not hold similar magic?
Perhaps the Forgotten and the Six Gods’ magic, being non-native to Tyria, results in being immune to corruption.
Which would explain why the temple of Grenth and certain statues of Grenth are showing little to no signs of Zhaitan’s corruption.
- The gods knew previous races had been wiped out by the Elder Dragons
- The gods knew that the Elder Dragons would rise again, and kill us all
- The gods brought/created humans to/on Tyria regardless, and then left.
- They left us to die basically. Something here does not make sense.
Fixing for you:
Mostly good points. However, the size increase for vets and above merely brought Orr in line with newer content. I notice it a lot in Dry Top, where the upscaled inquest enemies are bigger than my sylvari.
It doesn’t seem to be a lore thing, as they’re applying it to every type of enemy.
The January 2013 update (Flame and Frost: Prelude) made a lot of changes to Orr. It added new waypoints, redesigned the temples and certain champ fights, and the size change to standard mobs.
The risen still increase size with upscaling, as they did since release, but with that update even standard level risen are larger than they once were.
Size scaling is natural for higher-than-standard levels, veterans, and champions. Elites never got the treatment, nor did Legendaries I believe. But such size scaling was around since release, even for the risen.
That’s not true. Like I said, only Tequatl was thus far acknowledged in story, but in January 2013, the temple events were updated, making them more difficult, and the risen mob density in Orr was altered, including the size of Orrian risen being enlarged (making them more norn-sized, rather than the original human sized).
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/January_2013#World_Polish_%E2%80%93_Orr
- The Risen creatures all across Orr have had their population density adjusted.
- Various Risen creatures have had their animations and size updated.
- The difficulty of events to claim and defend the Orrian temples and the Gates to Arah will now scale to accommodate a larger number of players.
In other updates, risen were made more hunched over, and in a different one various risen champs (Risen Wraith, Abomination, Knight, Drake, and others) were given new skills (such as the wraith’s AoE continuous life stealing skill that needs to be interrupted to end it).
It’s hard to determine how much of these are actual changes to the lore in respect to the living story, but they all began with the living story. So it can go either way.
We have a few cases where they look ‘weaker’ (hunched over animation, fewer CC skills in Orr), but even more cases where they’ve become ‘tougher’. The question is: mechanic alone, or lore as well like Tequatl?
They can easily make such lore if they so desire.
It’s more likely.
Maybe, maybe not.
Except for a single vague cinematic, you have nothing to support the claim that the DSD woke between Primordus and Jormag.
Similarly, you have nothing to support your claim that the krait didn’t live where the DSD was.
However, I have support for both arguments on my side.
Wasn’t my analogy, but Jeff Grubb’s.
Source?
I already explained that, unfortunately, I don’t know where the interview is – if it is even still on the internet for that matter.
I’m sure other lore veterans like drax recall it, however.
I don’t need to prove something “didn’t” do it, you need to prove if you say it “did”, that’s basic logic.
That’s a fallicious argument.
You’re saying it did something else, so by your own argument, you have to prove that it did that “something else.”
The weight of evidence falls on both sides, not just one.
If someone is put on trial, and they plead not guilty, it falls onto not just the other party to prove them guilty, but on themselves to prove that they are not guilty.
Actually I’m not saying it’s hard fact but a possibility, you are trying to establish “fact” even though it’s just some speculation sometimes.
Now you’re just denying your own previous wording.
Here you stated that the DSD awoke before Jormag, not “might have” but that it did.
Here you stated that the cinematic at the end of Episode 2 was “clearly” showing the awakening of the Elder Dragons. However, you have yet to provide evidence that makes it so cleary.
Just two cases of the many.
Going off of all of 2014, the set up seems to be:
2 months of Bi-weekly releases (note: 4 releases)
2 month mid-season break for holiday, feature batch, and/or WvW tourney.
2 months of Bi-weekly releases (note: 4 releases)
4 month post-season break for holiday, feature batch, and/or WvW tourney.Rinse repeat.
Normally I wouldn’t mind this. But 4 months is getting too long, I really hope this doesn’t happen again. We need something to keep guildies from leaving. Too many people was lost to ArcheAge already. And activity goes ridiculously low in the break months.
Normally, I would have said 2 month post-season break, but I considered two things:
1) The break between Season 1 and Season 2 was four weeks – not counting the S1 Epilogue and S2 Prologue. Counting them, it’d be more like 2-3 months.
2) With each new season, the devs have to not only fully design (writing, models, maps, music, sound effects) the first few episodes, but have the plot out the basis of the entire season. This would take a lot more effort than the mid-season break, which seems to be there to give the devs some leeway with the fast releases.
As lordkrall said, Anet has shown two ways of doing things; and given the responses between Season 1 and Season 2 – and with GW1, the response difference between War in Kryta and Winds of Change (WiK was released on a weekly schedule but had very small and often subtle changes; WoC had three releases months apart but overall was the size of an expansion minus new locations) – it seems that the majority of players prefer the latter case of “bigger/better releases that are further apart.”
They seems to go with a new mini-map and a single questline each 6 months. How a 350 workers company produce the same work as a 10 man team is out of my reach.
In GW1, making a new zone was told to us by Linsey Murdock to be a 20 man team’s amount of work.
GW2 is a lot more complicated due to how the event system interacts within itself (how one event effects other events). So naturally it would require more than 10 people, more than 20, even.
Something tells me you don’t know how video game design works. Or rather, how making Guild Wars/Guild Wars 2 works.
It is curious, however, how Anet is producing seemingly so little for so many employees.
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