…Elder Dragons? Their minions, as mindless as they are, regard their respective elder dragon as the supreme power….a God….and we killed one of those. And just like what happened when we killed a human god, that power went somewhere.
Seems like a good point to start comparisons to me.
Gods can be killed. Norse gods, Shinto gods, Greek gods, Roman gods; they can all die.
In my theory, the Elder Dragons and the Six Gods are just about the same – just from different worlds.
Usually when I think of a god, I think of a being that is immortal, timeless, outside time and space, probably not physical, and a power than can shape the world. I think that is a reasonable description of a god, and I also think it is important to differentiate between this, and just a very powerful being.
You realize that you just excluded every polytheistic god out there ever.
Congratulations Thor, Zeus, Hades, Odin, and all the others out there. You’re not gods!
The Elder Dragons seem to be more powerful than the human gods, since they went into hiding.
Who said they’re hiding?
Oh yeah, Gadd, who didn’t even know of the existence of the Elder Dragons.
That makes perfect argument.
Nothing, I repeat, NOTHING says the gods are hiding. They left the world – they did so before the Elder Dragons even awoke. And Jeff Grubb explicitly stated why the Six Gods left.
“The human gods still exist, and their power is still felt within Tyria. However, they have pulled back into the mists, leaving the humans to stand (or fall) on their own merits. There has been a tendency for the human gods to, um, meddle with their worshippers a bit much, and in the wake of the final battle of Abaddon, they have been trying to cut back. Also, the destruction of the big A and his replacement with Kormir in the Pantheon resolved one of their ties with physical contact with Tyria. So there are ties, but you just can’t ring them up to take on the Elder Dragons.”
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Dolyak-Express-Jan-10-2014/page/3#post3545340
I think the words of Jeff Grubb hold more weight than an egotistical-even-by-asuran-standards asura who died before the knowledge of Elder Dragons became known in the modern world.
If they were truly gods, wouldn’t they simply be able to unmake the Elder Dragons?
You know, world ending eldritch abominations, which the Elder Dragons are, tend to be god killers in ancient myths.
It’s a possibility, but if they “hoarded” the stone, as it is stated in the notes written by Sandford, I don’t see why the Forgotten and a bunch of Dwarves worshipped the Gods.
Given their knowledge of the Elder Dragons, those Gods had to be major actors in this conflict. Glint hid the remaining races during the last cycle, and I really don’t see the Gods appear from the middle of nowhere, grab this important stone and being worshipped.
We know they did from GW1, however, regardless of what the gods did with the Bloodstone and “other treasures”.
So, does anyone have any evidence that the human gods aren’t humans?
Dwayna, Melandru, Abaddon, and Grenth all had/are occasionally depicted having wings. Humans don’t have wings. Dhuum was a skeleton without legs (during GW1 – so this could be akin to Abaddon’s appearance in GW1, not the original body/appearance). Beyond this, no not really.
But there’s nothing to say that they are humans. So the argument ends up becoming like the “gods are tied to dragons” hypothesis – there is neither enough evidence for or against.
You can argue that they are divine beings, but that theory falls apart when you consider how ‘divinity’ has been abused in our history.
Our history doesn’t have beings that blind you just by staring.
Our history doesn’t have magic.
Our history doesn’t have beings that reconstruct their body into insectoid/fleshy gargantuan floating head and hands. Or known fallen gods that are giant skeletons without legs.
Our history doesn’t have magical spirits of animals that represent and effect entire species.
The comparison falls short very fast.
On the part where you would go blind for looking on them…Its only a magic spell. It might be possible that you wouldn’t actually go blind for looking on the gods, but they casted that spell because they want to prove their own divinity.
If this was so, then why would they bother with the statues? The entire point behind the statues was because they could not stand before mortals without blinding them. If it were mere spell, they would have stood before mortals without blinding them. Or at the very least, they wouldn’t blind Malchor who made the statues.
We didn’t go blind when we were fighting Abaddon…..and even Dhuum who wasn’t really much of a god at that point, the point still stands. They were both still gods, and if they were actually gods…and divine, then their divinity would have caused us to go blind, and thus end the fight before it even starts. If one ‘god’ can make you go blind, then all the gods should make you go blind, but that is not the case.
Fallen gods. They were both fallen gods. And the fight with Abaddon – who was recreating a body – was backed by a blessing by the five gods – maybe that blessing was “you won’t go blind”.
There’s more evidence to point out that the gods weren’t ‘gods’, just really powerful beings (and possibly humans), than there is to say that aren’t.
This depends on how you define gods.
In almost every single polytheistic setting, the gods are not infallible immortals. They have eternal youth, can create life out of clay, give birth to monsters (literally), are incredibly powerful, and live in the afterlife. This matches the Six Gods almost perfectly.
The Deep Sea Dragon awoke before Jormag, it might be waiting for something to happen. Maybe it spent some efforts to make itself a secret, including destroy/hide the knowledge about itself.
This is only theory. We don’t know what the order of the orbs shining means, really.
ALL lore facts point to the DSD waking up 50 years prior to the game, not between Primordus and Jormag’s awakening. Only that cinematic points to that, so it’s one possible hint versus three or so.
Their nature is balancing magic.
I wouldn’t exactly say that. I’d say that their nature is to devour magic and some external balance might happen when they do so.
To quote Angel McCoy, though I loath the interview it comes from:
“Magic is the lifeblood of Tyria. The entire world is infused with it, and it flows through everything via ley lines that criss-cross the planet.
The natural role of the dragons is to keep this magic balanced. From time to time, in the long history of the world, the dragons have awoken and begun to draw the world’s magic into themselves, reducing the level of magic flowing through the ley lines.”
http://esprits-dorr.fr/node/261
Sure, that’s in their nature, but they all show evidences of using their nature for ulterior motives.
To me, your argument is akin to taking a fat aristocrat that has overtaxed his people for food as “well, it’s in his nature to eat”.
Their nature is balancing magic. But this doesn’t necessarily mean corruption and destruction is, but even if it is, they show ulterior motives that often utilize their corrupting and destroying things.
But as the world’s balancers as magic, I doubt that their nature is such evilness. And yes, they are evil – even if they are a ‘necessary evil’. They have sentience and show personality.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
Not really, Stooperdale, as this differs from the others. The difference is not in consume or destroy, but why consume or destroy.
The short of my interpretation:
For Jormag and Zhaitan, destroying is merely eliminating opposition.
For Mordremoth, corruption is just a means to an end (annihilation).
For Kralkatorrik, corruption is the goal, destroying is just so there is nothing that is not corrupted (a means to an end).
For Primordus, both is the goal.
Via my interpretation at least.
They could have had the books there without nodding to Gadd, Vekk, and Nicholas Sandford. Those three make little sense for author-content connection. Those three especially make it obvious that some of these were just added for the sake of adding them. And why, after nearly a year if not more of complaints on lack of relation to GW1 lore, would they add these for the sake of adding?
The addition of books was to make it interesting. But without those complaints I have no doubt they would have focused on things more gw2-centric instead of gw1-centric lore.
Is the mention for all mesmers, or just human mesmers?
Well they mentioned some things that you’ve discussed on the forums. The library is pretty much an echo of our lore discussions, without explicitly confirming our ideas. While Frozenwind and I were going through the place, we repeatedly noticed books where we asked each other: “Wait, isn’t this something Konig discussed at great length?”
I wonder, has this update renewed your faith in the game’s writing? It definitely has for me. Lets hope they stay the course.
They’re more of things I argued against for what I’ve seen which is just the “gods aren’t gods” by Gadd and the Dragons and Gods. Hardly my theories.
And no, it hasn’t. Because where you and others are seeing ‘omg new Lord’s and ‘omg gw1 lore’ I see ‘recap!’ And ‘gw1 references that make no logical sense and were added for the sake of calming the complaints!’
@Samuli: Yeah, seems to be for Vigil characters only, which us odd given we just met them.
Yay more oversights!
For all the praise, E5 has a lot of oversights and inconsistencies. It’s like the 2 week break and overload of gw1 references have led to folks not realizing that E5 isn’t all that better than E1-4.
There was even some recognition of some of Konig’s theories.
Wait, there was?
Another thread said the symbol on the blindfold is the symbol of the Six Gods
One would usually think that by following up a previous post of mine saying “when Thalador puts histheo ry, I have a half joke” followed by said Thalador’s theory of Rytlock meeting the Six Gods, followed by the statement with a :P
One would think people would realize that he statement was a joke.
The books are unrelated and as such can be read in any order. The order of release was the order of intended ‘lore reveals’ though.
If you really want to get into lore, I suggest doing the following:
IMO, GW1 has a far stronger story than GW2 does, especially the Living World, and can even be fun to play still, however this may turn you to have a view much like the veterans which has, until E5, been a “GW2 is ignoring and even greatly changing GW1’s great lore for worse lore!”; you can’t play Season 1, unfortunately, so you’ll have to go with summaries there.
The fact of the matter is, we simply do not know for sure. We don’t know what they are, nor what they were. We only know what people think they are.
And you take an asura who died before the knowledge of the dragons became known by anyone modern, claiming to know about the dragons, who’s known to be super arrogant and viewing humans as mere tools, over hundreds of years of human history that has yet to have reasonable reason for it being false.
Yes it is new information. There’s even more that contradicts the GW1 manuscripts now.
If by new you mean over 2 years old, then yes. :P
We now know this is not true. They had not been simply summoned by the old gods.
But they did come from the Mists. See this book.
And it wasn’t the gods who presented it to the races of Tyria, it was Abaddon who shared it (possibly against the will of the other gods).
“The gods (not only Abaddon) “unsealed” the Bloodstone and magic flowed back into the world. Humans and other sentient races of the time began using it.”
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/Angel-McCoy-Interview/page/3#post2821776
Yes it was the gods.
If they took it back the way as we are told, did they at first agree with Abaddon to share it?
Yes. But Abaddon gave too freely – according to Sandford by giving the Bloodstone itself to the race
In light of all this, it feels as if the human gods were surrounded by beings far more godly than them. Which makes me speculate that the human gods were just powerful beings, not gods (I tend to agree with Gadd in that respect).
And how do you come to this conclusion?
One of the books describes ancient serpentine civilizations BEFORE the human gods came to Tyria. This must refer to the Forgotten, and it mixes up Prophecies lore a bit. It means that the Forgotten were there long before the human gods, along with many other civilizations (which we already know from other sources).
This was known since GW2’s release, as this is stated in Arah.
But that doesn’t mean the Forgotten brought humans. There’s no indications of this. You pull this out of thin air.
Another book tells us that the Seers, and not the human gods, made the bloodstones, to hide magic from the dragons. We are also told that the gods took the bloodstones from Arah.
To Arah, technically. This was also known since release.
A lot of these books is basically just restating past lore and interpretations.
Another book by Gadd tells us, that in his opinion the human gods may have just been really powerful beings, and that given enough magic and time, anyone could become like them. Now this is just Gadd’s opinion of course, and its very biased, but it makes sense.
Actually, it really doesn’t.
And I think this book was just one of the few books that act as a reference to the community – because more than once have we had people theorize that the gods were not gods.
This book does nothing but tells an arrogant asura’s view on beings they NEVER came into contact with – and couldn’t have learned about for very long. This book comes off to me as Gadd overhearing the Shining Blade pray to the gods and going “bah, such things can’t exist” without really knowing who or what the gods were.
If the bloodstones contained all this magic, and the human gods took the stones, maybe that is how they became (like) gods in the first place. They may have just been really important individuals (rulers), who ascended to godhood.
But lore indicates that the Six Gods came to the world as gods.
And even if this is not true – which you have 0 evidence to argue against as even Gadd states “Did they bring humans to Tyria? I cannot argue against this. it is an ancient belief that has no proof to support or deny it.” – but how could he know this, exactly, given how little time he spent on the surface, and so much of it was focused on studying destroyers and bloodstones.
And even if his final words ring true – “They are what we would all become if given the amount of magical energy they possess and allowed to live as long as they appear to have.” – then where would they get the magic. Perhaps the world they came from rather than the Bloodstone.
Keep in mind that they have an innate, uncontrollable aura that blinds all who look upon them. Such magic does not seem to exist on Tyria, for even the Elder Dragons are not blinding when seen.
So why did Abaddon bring the gift of magic to the world?
You seem to forget something.
Angel McCoy said it was all of the gods, not just Abaddon, who granted magic. And according to Nicholas Sandford, Abaddon’s gift of magic was taking the bloodstone and giving the object (or pieces of it?) to other races.
Now we know from Ogden that all of the gods definitely knew about the Elder Dragons, which is why they retreated from the world.
Ogden, or anything else, never states that the Elder Dragons fled the world because of the Elder Dragons – Gadd theorizes this (but how could he? He died before the knowledge of the Elder Dragons came to be! – then again “Is it coincidence that they have been gone since the first dragon began to stir?” is proof that Gadd couldn’t have written this, he died before the first dragon began to stir).
That is a very long time ago. Accounts from back then are heavily biased from a human perspective. The fact that the gods brought humans to Tyria does not make them gods. We travel through the mists all the time, yet we are not gods.
You forget one thing:
No being can travel to the Mists without the aid of a higher being – be it god, avatar, or Spirit of the Wild.
Havrouns travel to the Mists via the Spirits; in GW1, we travel to the Mists via avatars of the gods.
Only Lord Odran – and those who used his portals – were able to travel the Mists without aid. And he did it after exceptional amounts of sacrifices.
Here’s a question…
If the ‘human’ gods aren’t humans, why do they take human form?
Why do norn, jotun, giants, and largos take human form?
TAKE NOTE They are called “human gods” because they are worshiped by only humans in modern times. Humans never ever refer to them as human gods but as their other titles (most commonly, the Six Gods). In GW1, they were never referred to as the human gods, because back then they were still worshiped by the Forgotten (technically, they still are, but the Forgotten have upped and vanished).
We’ve only seen the forms of two of the gods, Abaddon and Dhuum (and Dhuum wasn’t one of the six at the time), the rest is all Malchor’s interpretation … and he went blind from looking at them. I wouldn’t put too much weight on how the statues depict them.
Supposedly, those statues of Malchor’s show their true form. However, we only see three such statues, two of which are corrupted utterly.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Statue_of_Balthazar_%28Cathedral_of_Glorious_Victory%29.jpg
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Statue_of_Dwayna_%28NPC%29.jpg
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Cathedral_of_Hidden_Depths.jpg
Those are the “true forms” of the gods that were shown to Malchor, depicted into statues, top two corrupted and twisted by Zhaitan thus no longer their “true forms”.
Abaddon’s form in GW1 appears to be him recreating a destroyed body.
I believe that perhaps they were great human Kings and Queens, brought to Tyria by the Forgotten.
Why do you think this?
Where would they have gotten their divinity from?
Take note that their divinity is very different from simply having a lot of magic – they cause blindness in those who see them, even when they want to be seen.
The statue in the library shows us Abaddon as a man wearing a mask, not a monster with 6 eyes. This must have been what he was like before the realm of torment twisted him into the creature we fight at the end of Nightfall.
Fun fact: his mask and a glove can be found in the Ruins of Morah mission; gw.dat entries state that Abaddon was recreating his body as Varesh’ rituals took place (these rituals were also unlocking the gate outposts, giving Abaddon access to more of his power).
There’s some interesting lore regarding the Tengu as well, in the library. It suggests that the Tengu took to the sky. Or at least, it is implied. Do they hide a secret army among the clouds to this very day?
Saying that the other races “should take flight” is more of an analogy to the phrase “fight or flight” rather than “we’re flying in the sky!”
The book basically says “do not fight the Elder Dragons, run from them.”
The library is literally filled with hints at all of these points.
No, not all of them.
Why do you argue that the human-looking gods (something we’ve known since Nightfall) are merely humans? Because of a book written by the always-known-to-be-highly-egotistical-asura-even-by-asura-standards Gadd? Hardly proof!
Our first hint is the statue of Abaddon, which shows him as a human. The fact that he has such a prominent statue in the Priory no less, and in perfect condition, tells you a few things: First of all, he wasn’t a monster, he was a man. Second, that most likely this statue was also made by Malchor. It shows him in a positive light, with a scroll, as a god of wisdom.
Prior to his fall, Abaddon was the chief deity of water and wisdom. It is said that while his heart was still just and fair, he was a handsome, calm figure with imposing blue eyes – deep, like the colors of the sea. His generosity was only matched by his namesake, the ocean, which was both his dominion and said to be the physical manifestation of his blue wings. Princely amongst the gods, he was recognized as being the wisest amidst the Six, and his insight was not only welcome, but was also the most highly valued when the gods held council.
Few would recognize Abaddon as he is now. His eyes – once as deeply bright as the seas – were replaced by sunken, abyssal shadows. His wings lost their lustre and became scythe-like, bloodied and battered. It is said that Abaddon’s appearance is a direct representation of his heart. If that is true, then he must have fallen far.
From one of the asia pre-NF-release lore articles on Abaddon. Translation can be found here.
Abaddon’s body changed as his persona changed. Per the gw.dat, Abaddon’s body was destroyed in the past, and recreated during the course of Nightfall.
So yes, Abaddon’s body was changed. But he wasn’t “merely human”.
They use male and female norn models. 2 male, 1 female.
Before meeting the gods, no indication the asura knew of the gods. They knew of world-effecting events like the gift of magic, but had no explanation for them. That came from an interview, though I haven’t been able to find it again since.
The earliest view of the Six they had, that we know of is Kerrsh, who in all honesty had a very similar view to the Six before the conclusion of his quest chain and his journal in the upper Priory library. It would have been better to have that be Kerrsh’s theory.
I’d argue they hadn’t a clue based off of Ogden’s statement of how they have limited perspective because they attempt to define what cannot be defined.
Unless they could use the model for Glint’s child.
From studies before, Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik both are approximately the same size by comparing sizes of asura/humans to the sizes of the champions and them to Zhaitan, using EoD comparisons.
EoD says that Kralkatorrik is 1,000 feet tall, and their wings are large enough to block out the sun, and his breath would result in the width of the Dragonbrand.
We have no clue for Jormag, Mordremoth, and the DSD.
Mordremoth seems to do both, but there are far more minions that are created rather than corrupted. Unless you’re going to argue that terragriffs were plant-like colocals before being Mordrem or something.
We know that Primordus can corrupt living beings.
Jormag and Kralkatorrik have both corrupted beings and created.
Zhaitan has corrupted beings, but is unclear if he’s created – unless you count ‘sewn together corpses’ as creating. And we know he corrupts living beings and plants.
‘what they corrupt’ is not very reliable since it seems to be ‘anything and everything, if they choose to.’
Too Many GW1 References In all honesty, it felt like you guys were at a point where you were stuffing GW1 references for the sake of stuffing as many GW1 references as you could. Regardless of relevance and logic to them.
For example, how could Vekk know that the Elder Dragons consumed and leaked magic? If this is true, then he had theorized long ago Gorr’s own theory and then some, things that were only realized in 1325-1326, would not have been jerred and lauded at! Vekk was a renown member of asura society, so it’s hard to believe he could make such a theory and it not be commonplace in asura society.
Another example, would be Nick’s book about the Bloodstone – how could Nick know this stuff? I mean, the Priory had to learn it from somewhere, sure, and it’s plausible Nicholas Sandford could know the Seer’s ties to the Bloodstone and the truth of Abaddon’s gift of magic, but the chances of that are so unlikely even given his travels and ties to Durmand.
And what’s with the charr myth on the Elder Dragons? Up until now, we were told that the knowledge of the Elder Dragons came solely from the ancient races – but suddenly in Season 2, the norn and Six Gods have knowledge, and now the charr do too! Yet the Elder Dragons “wiped out nearly all races”, despite so many surviving myths of them, despite no races to exist for them to spread them.
Thanks to everyone for the great feedback! I agree with the overall sentiment that the team did a really good job with this one. And better story takes a great effort from not only Narrative, but Art, Audio, Design and others as well. We really do have a great group of developers here.
Art and audio has been doing an excellent job since day one. Any dislike does not fall on their shoulders.
Why is Kasmeer even part of Destiny’s Edge 2.0? She’s absolutely useless all the time. Downed during the final boss fight. Typical.
This felt like an opposite to Scarlet’s End instance, where Kasmeer was fighting but Marjory was knocked out.
Hi folks! Now that I’ve settled in a bit at ANet, I wanted to check in again on this thread. The first Living World episode that I was involved in, “Echoes of the Past,” has now been live for a few days. We’ve all been really pleased that people seem to be enjoying the story and content a lot. But I’d love to ask you all for more specifics. What were your favorite narrative moments? What did you like about the content? About the way it was told? And of course, I want to hear what you think we can still do better on.
Thanks in advance to everyone for their comments. I’m very excited to be part of such a great game, and to work with such an excellent team of creative people.
Perhaps I’ve just become very jaded but I don’t feel much difference between E5 and E1-4, for the most part. But the things I think were improvements:
People enjoy lore dumps, people love continuity, and people love it when the plot doesn’t focus on the character, but the plot – it feels less drawn on then. The last being the reason behind the arguments of “the biconics cannot carry GW2”.
You know what would have made it better? If the Priory’s Special Collection were in the instance The Durmand Priory – so that it could be accessible at any point outside the story step, perhaps completing E5 as a requirement.
Some things I disliked:
Ghosts at Fort Salma The instance felt forced into the plot, irrelevant overall with no purpose. It felt like a GW1 side-quest that would have a hero requirement to do.
Canach Can we please drop the forced utter hatred on him? It’s making my character look to be a complete kitten to be continuously suspicious and down right giving death threats to someone who has openly stated to be attempting to repent for his crimes. Yes, he was a criminal, but the world isn’t black and white – and our PCs know this, given that they may have done something to result in people’s deaths. Oh wait, that storyline no longer exists because you guys removed it. Nevermind, I guess. (Side note: Please, for the love of god, tell us what’s up with the fear storyline?).
Rather than forcing our characters to be complete jerks to Canach, give us a multi-dialogue tree that gives players a chance to be forgiving. Because in all honesty? I hate my character whenever I interact with Canach. I want to just kittenslap my character and shake them furiously and shout in their face “HE. IS. TRYING. TO. REPENT. STOP. THREATENING. HIS. LIFE. YOU. PSYCHOPATH!”
Yeah, sure, he talks about lopping off heads and planting bombs. He has a dark history. But he’s sad for his dark past, and remained in jail when he could have escaped, and is now working to help us against the Elder Dragons. It’s reasonable to be leery but lines like:
“I’ll be at the front of the hunting party if you mess this up.” followed by “We can always put you back.” the next time we see him, feels like I’m playing a Renegade Shepard – rather, like I’m forced to play a Renegade Shepard in the Mass Effect series, when the image I have of my characters is less brutish and threatening.
As Canach says: “I do wish you’d get over the past.”
So do I Canach, so do I.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
It was the aforementioned “half-joke” on Thalador’s theory.
Aka, not a fact but supposition if Thalador’s theory is in the right direction.
I find the argument of Primordus being rock and fire both believable – we have been told in an interview that if Primordus were to corrupt living beings, though we don’t see such a case in-game, they would be encased in rock and slowly liquified. But if we look at the other four we know about (Zhaitan, Mordy, and our guesses on Jormag and Kralkatorrik) then they’re all non-physical in the second sphere (shadow, mind, soul, sky). Kralkatorrik would match somewhat, but it’s still a far cry between rock and those four.
Simply corrupting rocks is not really means of corruption – otherwise, Zhaitan would be corpses and (un)death or the like, not shadow.
I agree it’s too soon to be sure for the DSD, since all we know is (one of) what it corrupted. Which would be like saying ‘norn’ for Jormag.
Anet claims that they were thinking of the Living World concept during development of the initial game, but they also said around Secret of Southsun Cove that they created the base of Season 1’s plot in 2 days – which, given that they’re now calling The Lost Shores a “special event”, I don’t think they planned for her until sometime between release to December. Flame and Frost and Secret of Southsun were all clearly done on-the-spot, given how little content F&F had, and in another livestream a dev who was on the Secret of Southsun team said that making that was very rushed content (iirc, Secret of Southsun was the first release of their “four teams to make 1 month’s content every four months” set up they had for Season 1, meaning they had less than four months to make the content).
Such a thing wouldn’t surprise me anyways, given that not only were Jeff Grubb and Ree Soesbee were the narrative designers, instead of Scott and Angel, at the time of the development of the initial release content, but the lead writer was not Bobby Stein until around release – basically, all the bigwigs of the writing team changed around during the release timeframe.
Three holograms, not two, and they were done in the design as the dancing holograms (though they don’t dance) in Aetherblade Retreat.
Dragon minions are connected mentally, only sharing thoughts with the Elder Dragon, it is how they differentiate between minion and not. You seem to think of a hive mind as sharing all thoughts instantly – that is just but one possibility for the phrase “hive mind”.
The charr fractal takes place right before the foe fire so we already have a charr side perspective of it. There is so many things Anet could tie into here. Perhaps rytlock runs into komir and she gives him vital info on the dragons.
That’s the Searing, actually.
It’s the foe fire. The charr never breached ascalon city before the day of the foe fire. The charr used the searing to breach the wall but we’re unable to breach the city
It’s not actual history. But an alternative version of history. This was told to us in an interview. It IS The Searing. Just check the fractal’s wiki page, which even cites the interview hth TowerTalk.
Nothing says that is Ascalon City, by the way. It could be Surmia, Drascir, or the other cities north of the wall.
At release, there were a lot of hints that Jormag would be the second dragon fought.
But either things changed, or they had no real plan.
During season 1, Scott McGough told us that each storyline (season?) will go back and forth between a dragon plot and a ‘break from dragons.’
@Asgar: that’s not what the OP is asking. The OP is asking from a design standpoint, not lore/story. Or so it seems to me, at least.
The vision didn’t really say ‘sky’ to me.
Theoretically, you don’t need to read any to understand the game.
The important parts of GoA, based a year before the Personal Story, are explained in the Ascalon Catacombs story dungeon and Field of Ruins summit area.
The important parts of EoD are explained in Sorrow’s Embrace story dungeon.
The important parts of SoS are found on the Marriner Plaques.
Similarly, the few relevant gw1 parts are explained when relevant. Though called a sequel, the first game really only acts as Easter eggs and base background lore.
IMO, of the novels, SoS was best written (then GoA then EoD), but EoD gave the most lore but GoA and SoS, IMO, are equal in lore).
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
Krait are very smart, particularly with mathematics and the like. So I wouldn’t be so sure on that. Especially since the Forgotten, also snake beings, acted as custodians of the world for a time.
Gadd’s statements is very similar to Kerrsh’s at the beginning of the Path of Revelations.
He died within only a few years at most, less than a year at least, of learning of the surface. I wouldn’t put much stock into his views if the surface cultures.
Her freedom would have to be before the Elder Dragons’ hibernation, given that she hid them.
I’d imagine that the line of learning language from humans is not a case of ‘only from them’. But do keep in mind that it is the human language which is used primarily in gw1 and gw2. And what she used in gw1.
She likely learned Forgotten and dwarven speech before learning human speech.
I’ve been doing this topic as research since release, slowly improving it as we got information. I was intending to go over it again next week with the new knowledge from E5 for when I get home and could quote everything I needed with screenshots.
A light version of my latest research notes can be found here, though my views of Mordremoth have changed – I do think we have a definitive view of his persona and goals now.
To summarize my current view:
Zhaitan views itself as a leader, seeks to rule the world, and promises his minions immortality and reunion with loved ones through undeath. This is most clearly evident in the novel Sea of Sorrows – among other select quotes that are in the link above.
Jormag is a manipulator who seeks to be the top dog in a ‘gang’ or ‘nation’ of only the strongest; he seems to have a focus on the old addage of ‘survival of the fittest’ if you would – and he wants the fittest to worship him as their leader. Anet often calls the Elder Dragons on a whole an “apex predator” – Jormag takes this description literally, it seems, in wanting to be exactly what the Sons of Svanir preach him to be (perhaps because this is what he and his champions told them). Even outside of the Sons of Svanir, we see mentions of power amongst his minions, and how do the Sons of Svanir teach recruits? Hunt icebrood. Sons of Svanir are also known to kill female icebrood, just for being females – and Jormag’s stated to simply not care about it. I suspect he doesn’t care for a mentality akin to “if they can be killed off, then they’re weak and I don’t need weaklings.”
One thing on Jormag I haven’t worked out is the mentions of EoD about his “intense hatred” – one could argue that his hatred is towards the weak or those not under his command.
Kralkatorrik seems to be vain like Jormag, but in a different meaning. He seems to “become” everything. This mostly comes from Edge of Destiny when Snaff enters his mind, but he description is of a storm that is ever trying to consume the eye of the storm, attempting to destroy and consume anything the storm is not. And the harder it is for Kralkatorrik to destroy/consume what he is not, the more he hates it and the more he wants to destroy/consume it.
This would explain Kralkatorrik’s drive to kill Glint: “what I cannot have, no one can” seems to be an adpt description of his thoughts. And Glint was no longer his, so no one can have her.
Primordus we can only go after the actions his minions do. Unlike all other dragons – except possibly the DSD – Primordus excludes corruption of living beings by choice. He can corrupt – we know this, and we know how he would – but he never once does; not even the Destroyer Queen seems to be a corrupted being, despite common belief because it was the first of two possibilities presented by the mentor. His minions are aptly named destroyers for that is what they do: they destroy all life. When the Great Destroyer rose, his role was not only to wake Primordus early, but to prepare the way for his coming – and he was to do this by wiping out all surface life. And in this is where I get his motivation: genocide of living beings.
Mordremoth we only recently got real hints into his motivations, persona, and goal. In the second instance of E5 – the Pact instance – the Masters tell us some of Aerin’s ravings on the ship: talking about destroying the world (to quote: “He said odd things about believing the world must be destroyed. "). This matches Scarlet Briar’s vision of “death, destruction, and destiny”. Ogden in the final instance of Hidden Arcana, says he views Mordremoth as ‘the most destructive of the Elder Dragons’. So similar to Primordus, Mordremoth seems to seek destruction – but unlike Primordus whom seems to only seek the destruction of life, Mordremoth seems to seek the destruction of the world.
The DSD is completely unknown. We only know he created minions out of water and drove out the underwater races.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
So other dragons champions did have a telepathic link with its minions, Great, it proved that I’m right
No, actually it proved you wrong.
You claimed before that the Sovereign Eye knew of the mentor because it read the PC’s mind. You claimed that there was no telepathic link to minions (aka a hive mind). You simply claimed that specific champions of each dragon had telepathic abilities like the Dragonspawn and Glint, marking it as non-unique to Glint.
I’m pointing out that the Sovereign Eye knew because risen figures knew, not by reading the players’ mind.
They reveal everything to Zhaitan, which means they had to tell him about it. If their might were directly linked with Zhaitan, Zhaitan would not have need its eyes to oversee the troops.
Also, the Risen doesn’t lose their way even when their champion leaders were killed. The Great Destroyer commands the destroyer troops, but the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan was not the commander of battle of Claw’s Island.
1) There is a difference between knowing thoughts/memories, and seeing what others see.
2) Risen do lose their way. Read Edge of Destiny and Sea of Sorrows. When Morgus Lethe and Captain Whiting are killed, the lesser risen flee into the see or fight uncoordinated, mindlessly scattering and doing their own thing. That’s losing your way.
No, we can see all the champions’ special ability was granted by their master, no matter they were created or corrupted.
Allow me to introduce you to Victurus the Shattered
“Victurus was a good man, and an excellent leader. He could take any dozen charr and make them a winning warband. If he still has control over his facilities, he could drum up an army in a heartbeat. "
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sentinel_Jaggedclaw
And we see him easily gathering an army.
Dragon minions retain their original abilities when corrupted. Some get altered, improved, or added upon. But they remain there in some form. Another example: Kitah Conjurer
It showed what it saw. Since there were other eyes existing at the same time. If it could see what others see as well.
Er… what?
Seeing your thoughts, knew your memory is not reading your thoughts? What kind of fallacy is that?
Seeing your soul != seeing your thoughts
I was referring to the Sovereign’s statement.
The other Eye seeing into the Mad Sylvari’s mind – if such is true – would not mean the Sovereign Eye has – let alone used – this ability.
Because it stated your mentor’s name?
Seiran cannot be corrupted because she is sylvari.
WHAT? You are saying Jormag and the other dragons are different, then came back to use Jormag and the others as the example?
To quote Jeff Grubb: “They are similar, yet they are different.”
They have similarities – creating minions with hive minds, consuming magic, etc. – but they have differences – Jormag having a focus on mental abilities, seeking to convert before corrupting instead of enslaving by corrupting like other Elder Dragons, for one amongst many examples.
I went into more details on the hive mind later on.
Glint said WHY she support the mortals, not because she was cleansed.
Yes, because regaining free will does not mean she instantly turned good.
It’s pretty clear when looking at all evidences that Glint was put under the ritual, but she was still following Kralkatorrik despite having free will but decided to leave Kralkatorrik’s commands when reading both his and mortals’ minds.
The ritual gave her the ability to choose whom to follow. But it was not what made her a good guy.
In other words: it was the combination of the two – her unique telepathy and the ritual she was forced into – that made her an ally of the races.
WHAT? You are saying other dragons don’t use telepathy but then use Jormag as your example? You are lost. Also it showed something that against your point.
… Hive mind != telepathy
Okay, let me put it this way:
All EDs show to have a hive mind with its minions – to some degree.
But only Jormag uses telepathy on non-minions.
Do you understand now?
They don’t have control over their body, isn’t it simple?
So you’re saying ‘their mind isn’t altered, they just can’t control their body.’
That could be used to describe the situation… depending on interpretation, but only for the grunts of the minions. Low level minions appear to be mindless killing machine – killing anything that isn’t of their dragon minion type. This is shown by ambient actions as much as the lines I provided above (they will chase ambient creatures – rabbits etc.). But higher level minions – particularly champions – do have a level of self-decision (there was an interview, I’ll try to find it) and it is this self-decision that allows them to lead minions. But they fanatically revere their Elder Dragon.
Glint’s own words. She stated clear that she could feel their sorrow and saddened herself.
But did not say that she didn’t undergo a ritual.
Lack of explaining everything != lack of things happening
Two possibilities and it proved to be later. Because if it was pregnant at that time, the egg would have been hatched long ago rather than still there. Simple.
The fact that the first was considered means that the eggs in such a situation could last that long before hatching.
Obviously not a few years.
Says who? Why is it so obvious? Where is your source?
Dragon’s power can twist creatures’ shape, behavior and everything else. Of course it could change some of the creatures to make them lay eggs. Especially the Risen Spiders. Yes, it proved that even Risen could lay eggs.
The change in shape is changing flesh to element. Can crystal, ice, fire, stone, and decayed flesh give birth?
I don’t think so.
The simpler explanation is “it corrupted the beings within the beings corrupted too.”
In Closing the Eye.
Mad Prisoner: The Eye! It sees into my mind,into my Dream. There’s no escape.The Eye, who was guarding the source all along, knew about your loss of your mentor, his/her name and your relationship with him/her, it’s not reliable? Are you kidding me?
Because a raving lunatic is a liable source.
Let’s say the Eye can read her mind. Okay, not too surprising, it uses mesmer abilities – so does a lot of risen. But I’d like to note that with capitalizing Dream, it’s not dreams, but the Dream of Dreams.
I didn’t say naming the mentor’s name and relation is not reliable. I said a risen, the entire group of them known for being liars throughout the game, is not very reliable. Especially when the risen in question claims that a sylvari – and remember, sylvari are immune to corruption – is a risen.
If it contradict with her words, then it’s not reliable. She made her reason clear enough.
There is no contradiction.
Glint not saying the whole story and someone telling (part of) the untold story is not telling a contradiction.
It doesn’t matter, they could produce “offspring” minions, and remember they were all the same thing.
Creating minions != creating offspring.
It’s a matter of debate for Glint, but it was a point of question as I brought it up from the beginning. But it should be noted:
Only champions and Elder Dragons are ever seen creating minions. So a standard branded devourer cannot create branded eggs.
Rytlock actually seems to be a rather unconventional charr in regards to belief. He put up with (read: got along well with) Logan for a full year, after all, and in the Loyal Soldier sire charr storyline mentioned learning human history and religion from Logan (though he doesn’t name Logan).
So of any charr, Rytlock would be near the top of the list of “charr who’d convert to a religion and/or charr who’d accept a peaceful relation with divine beings”.
No, Zhaitan knew what all its eye see, but no evidence showed that each eyes share the same vision. During the “What the Eye beholds”, the dead eyes’ vision only showed what it saw, not different visions of different eyes. Also, there were no Eyes in the battle of Claw’s island.
""We establish in EoD that the Dragonspawn communicates and controls its minions with a telepathic link. […] In fact, the heroes defeat the Dragonspawn by breaking that link, so the ice minions turn on it, seeing it as “not of the body”."
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/uploads/gallery/album_163/gallery_3318_163_39486.png
Gwen: “That’s it. What if they ARE a single creature?”
Ogden Stonehealer: “What do you mean?”
Gwen: “The Great Dwarf’s power is connected to Jalis’s followers. What if the Great Destroyer’s mind is connected to its minions.”
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Great_Destroyer_%28cinematic%29
Ogden Stonehealer: “Gwen was right.”
Ogden Stonehealer: “With the death of their master, the Destroyers lost their coordination.” http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ogden%27s_Benediction
Avatar of the Tree: Those who have been corrupted reveal everything to Zhaitan. Nothing is secret, least of all those places where his enemies hide.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Light_in_the_Darkness
I believe there were other sources, but it’s an established fact that both icebrood, risen, and destroyers have a hive mind – and, I believe, branded too.
Back on topic, it’s pointless to talk about was Glint created or not since there were no clear evidence, but all the champion’s special ability other than physical strength was granted by the dragon. Including Nornbear or the Risen captains, who were indeed corrupted. So Glint’s power came from Kralkatorrik, and we are likely going to use it against Mord.
It’s not pointless to talk about it given your claim:
If Glint was created, then yes, all of her power came from Kralkatorrik – unless she gained it after freedom. However, if Glint was corrupted, then it’s possible that some of her power, like her telepathy, was around pre-corruption.
Zhaitan knew what its eyes see, does not mean its champions, its eyes were connected to each other and each of them knew everything. The Pact did test on the eye and it only showed what itself saw, not all visions by other eyes or other champions. Otherwise it would have been much easier to find the source of Orr.
Zhaitan’s corrupt power doesn’t rise Sylvari.
The experiment does not show all it knew, just a single scene of what it saw, and was cut short by the other Eye seeing the experiment through the dead Eye’s vision. If the experiment went fully through, it’s theoretically possible to have seen all the Eye had seen over time – though the experiment was only to show what it had seen, and not what it knew.
We’re going to turn the Eye into a projector so we can see what it saw and establish a definitive link between it and Zhaitan.
We can see what it saw, not we can see what it knew.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
No, Eye of Zhaitan could also see through prisoner’s mind or even their dream as well. All known champions’ special power was given by their master.
You quoted the Eye claiming to see the soul, not mind or dream, and claiming that they have a risen sylvari waiting for the PC.
Not very reliable claim there.
What? The Great Destroyer, the Dragonspawn and the Claw of Jormag, the Shadow of the Dragon, the Shatterer weren’t created?
The Dragonspawn is not a dragon.
Again Glint herself never said such thing, she made clear that she was against her master simply because of its thoughts and the other being’s feeling.
She also never said that her death would result in her magic seeping out into the world – or Kralkatorrik’s for that matter.
She also never said anything about the Zephyrites.
Just as she never said anything about the Forgotten ritual.
I guess none of those things exist either, then.
See how bad your argument is?
I’m talking about the branded devourer’s eggs. Even the destroyers could also lay “eggpods”. They were made of lava and rocks by the dragon’s power.
The difference is that the devourers were once living creatures, and ALWAYS hatched devourers.
The destroyer eggs, however, hatched not just crablings, but full grown crabs and even trolls.
It made clear that it can see through your soul. The mad prisoner also stated that another eye could see “through my mind, see through your dream.”
This eye’s duty was to guard the source of Orr, how did it know you lost your mentor in the battle of Claw Island?
I’m a bit kittened that when some NPC’s lines support your point, you say it’s fact, when some didn’t, you say it’s lying.
Was some Sylvari/humans who never met Glint reliable about her past before as dragon champion? Compare to the Eye of Zhaitan itself and its prisoner’s words?
1) Seeing into your soul is not the same as telepathy.
2) Why would you believe a risen, when risen are well known for liars. Especially this guy, who says A SYLVARI is under Zhaitan’s wing.
3) Dragon minions have hive minds – read the link I posted about the Dragonspawn, and Jeff mentions it in the same post (if not in that link, then the others which can be found on GW2W’s Dragonspawn and Jormag articles).
4) And what points do you have to support yours, exactly? “Glint didn’t say it.” Yes, well, Glint didn’t say a lot.
5) And where do you think Illyra got the information. Let me quote for you:
Warden Illyra: I have learned that the last time the Elder Dragons came, the Forgotten worked with Glint, who hid the old races from the dragons’ power.
Warden Illyra: Glint was a champion of the Elder Dragon Kralkatorrik, but somehow she shook off his yoke.
Warden Illyra: Our scouts have reported ancient artifacts, which may be tied to the Forgotten.
Warden Illyra: Perhaps they hold the key for freeing creatures from the control of the dragons.
Warden Illyra: Yes. Yes! Look at these runes. The Forgotten were able to remove Kralkatorrik’s control over Glint.
Warden Illyra: Glint remained in crystalline form, but she regained her free will and identity.
Warden Illyra: If we can re-create the process, this will help in fighting the dragons.
Warden Illyra: The spell requires a location near here. We need to find a likely place to replicate the experiment.
She found this out by translating ancient Forgotten tomes.
So by saying Illyra is not reliable, you say the Forgotten’s – the people who freed Glint – knowledge is not reliable.
Actually it was your own statement all along.
You are using your own statement to prove your point all along. Where did it state that ALL minions were unquestionably loyal in their mind rather than just being controlled? No proof at all. Especially the champions.
It’s not stated, but we can see it pretty bloody well. Read Sea of Sorrows and Edge of Destiny – I’d quote, but i don’t have the novels on me.
Bromm and Grymm, I think the norn brothers’ names were, in Sea of Sorrows. One of them dies and his personality changes instantly from fighting Zhaitan, to worshiping him and claiming he’ll give everyone immortality through undeath (not in those words, but that meaning).
In EoD, it’s the charr who witnesses Kralkatorrik’s awakening, and the ogre chieftain. Both have their minds altered when corrupted – and the ogre appears to be a champion, given that he leads the branded after corruption.
We have dozens – if not hundreds – of cases where dragon minions attack former allies once corrupted.
We have dev posts stating and/or implying that they have a hive mind.
We have Khrigar Ripjaw stating that only Jormag doesn’t enslave when corrupting, but pulls people to worship him before corrupting.
If dragon minions – champions included – did not have their minds altered then why would they know of the Elder Dragon if they died before their awakening (Orrian risen), why would they attack former allies (all dragon minions)? Explain this.
Where is YOUR proof? I’ve provided mine, now that I’m not on the road for the time. Provide yours that the dragon minions aren’t such.
Bone dragons could simply be made of other corpses like the Risen Knight.
“Of course, any evaluation of the undead army would be incomplete without an account of the “Big Bad”—the bone dragon. In death, this beast is more than five times the height of a man—over thirty feet long. When it was raised from the grave, its powerful front claws pulled its tremendous girth out of the soil with such force that it tore its own body in half. In unlife, it drags itself across the ground, spitting putrescence and ravaging all who dare get within reach."
That’s not right, Kralkatorrik flew up years ago, if the eggs were corrupted at that time it would have been hatched, which makes no sense. Again where is your proof of this? You are using your own statement to prove your point here.
Skritt storyline.
Warmaster Forgal Kernsson: Two possibilities. Could be a creature that was pregnant when she was corrupted. Or this “queen” might be a kind of minion we’ve never seen before.
Tybalt Leftpaw: We’ve heard whispers about creatures that were already pregnant when corrupted. Though it could be a new type of minion. Ugh.
Magister Sieran: Priory records have documented such creatures. They were pregnant when they were corrupted. Or it might be something new. How exiting!
In this situation, it turns to be the latter – something new – but other situations is the former.
How long does it take for a corrupted egg to hatch?
Do you think the rotten, decayed, spiders and drakes and chickens of Orr are getting down on each other for the past century, explaining all those rotten eggs that spawn hatchlings? Or perhaps – similar to Glint’s egg – they were in stasis until needed to be hatched, perhaps?
For reference’s sake:
Ogden Stonehealer: Glint has the power to communicate with her mind. She learned language from humans this way.
Ogden Stonehealer: According to her, other dragons speak and think in something I hesitate to call a language. But not Glint.
Ogden Stonehealer: She learned that humans and other races were not her enemies, but allies to be nurtured.
Ogden Stonehealer: Thus, she became a protector of the Tyrian races. We recognized the importance of this, as did some exceptional humans.
I can see it being interpreted as “humans taught her this first” but it can also be interpreted – especially the third line above – that humans became important to her, her learning things from them, in a latter time.
Humanity being especially important to her matches Logan’s description of Glint in EoD – I don’t have the novel with me but iirc, he called her the guardian of humanity. But I don’t think they were the driving point for her hiding the races.
If we add humans to the list of surviving races, then it makes Ogden’s line in the very same dialogue set (The last time the Elder Dragons awoke, they wiped out almost every intelligent race on the planet.) sound ever more harder to believe. We know of five survivors (Seers, Forgotten, mursaat, jotun, dwarves), and we already have three heavily implied races (djinn, karka, tengu), and with this, if we count humans and the charr myth book, three hinted races (charr, human, kodan).
Balthazar believed that humanity should rule Tyria.
But even though centaurs and humans are diehard enemies, he has centaur Eternals.
I could easily see even Balthazar accepting a charr convert.
@Xukavi: there is a chance I am mis-remembering so it’d be best to go to Iron Marches todouble check, though in EoD, it is his breath that corrupts and he uses lightning personally in attacking Ebonhawke.
@Mem: I think that situation is exactly what the Apostate warns about in his ‘The Map of the All’ book, when he said that if the Six bodies break their push-and-pupl balance, the world would tilt and everyone would fall off. That is most likely a metaphor for the world ending though.
The emblem on the blindfold is clearly the symbol of the Six. :p
Or, in another direction…
The Leguonnaire Summoning Stone was introduced to gw1 in 2013, showing off Rytlock. When E3 came out, I instantly thought to that, and theorized he may have gone back in time.
Could he be going back in time, recover Sohothin from the Ring of Fire, and put it where Rytlock found it in ‘his ’ past (Tyria’s future)? Or he chased the sword, resulting in him getting Rurik’s sword, and the sword he lost in E3 goes to where Rytlock had gotten it before – making the Sohothin we’ve seen until now in gw2 a mere copy by the Mists of Sohothin, perhaps explaining why Rytlock was always so secretive to how he got it.
Or semi-joking in the path of ‘he went to gw1’: someone used the stone to fight Abaddon and he stared widemouth in disbelief and went blind from Abaddon’s divinity.
The charr fractal takes place right before the foe fire so we already have a charr side perspective of it. There is so many things Anet could tie into here. Perhaps rytlock runs into komir and she gives him vital info on the dragons.
That’s the Searing, actually.
When E3 came out, Thalador told me what I thought to be a joke theory.
This… Points in that theory’s direction. I’ve poked him to say it himself.
And I may subscribe to it.
And I have a joke on it too….
They create the Four episodes in the same timeframe.
There may be something more that required enough resources that divert from this in episodes 6, 7 or even 8.
But Glint is not fanatically devout, like all non-freed dragon minions. which is the main point. Dragon minions do not have free will. Glint does – a full pure anomaly. And why? Because of the Forgotten’s ritual.
As I stated, if pregnancy already exists; aka if an egg exists then the egg can be corrupted. That’s what happens for the Risen and branded eggs we see.
Sure, Kuunavang is… But what about Rotscale and the Bone Dragons? You did not speak of that.
And all dragons corrupt the mind – because, former creature or not all dragon minions are enslaved, brainwashed, into fanatical servants. This is seen with icebrood, branded, risen, and Mordrem. But aside from Glint, only Jormag and his champions have telepathy. And apparently Mordremoth, who’s sphere of influence is the mind and as such is unique.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
Actually Jormag and Kralkatorrik shares a lot of similarities.
Both corrupt living beings, cover them with ice/crystals and twist their minds.
Both could use ice/crystal to form minions directly.
Both could affect the weather in some way.
Jormag is the “living Blizzard”, Kralkatorrik could turn into a sandstorm.
The rank of Shatterer and the Claws of Jormag were similar.
So it makes sense that Glint once had the power to read mind just like the Dragonspawn could affect mind.
Kralkatorrik’s corruption is more of the opposite of Jormag.
Jormag’s corruption is slow and begins on the skin and hair, slowly turning the flesh into ice but leaving bone as bone.
Kralkatorrik’s corruption is near instantaneous and leaves the skin and bone and turning blood and sinew into crystal.
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/uploads/gallery/album_163/gallery_3318_163_39486.png
As to the last bit, Jeff Grubb stated at one point that is an attribute unique to Jormag specifically. Glint was unique amongst the Branded with her telepathy.
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