Edit to your edit: RNG is by no means bad. Even attacks in fighting games have a small degree of variance in their damage. It’s bad when it trivializes strategy, however. My point about the random and strategic statement is that the “randomness” keeps it interesting but it’s “strategic” in the sense that there was a clear and objective behind it. But if you remove 3 boons of a category, hey! No RNG at all!
I’ve already explained to you why this version of RNG is bad. Re-read the example. It is not conducive or healthy for a competitive environment when a team can win a game based on luck.
MMOs, and specifically Guild Wars 2, already suffer enough from this. There’s no point in adding even more.
It’s not adding more luck, it’s narrowing it down.
When there’s a 66% chance to dispel stability on somebody stomping, it’s about luck. When there’s a 66% chance to dispel protection on the target you’re about to burst, it’s about luck.
When there’s a 66% chance to dispel that 15-20 stacks of might on the glass cannon bursting you, it’s about luck.
Edit to your edit: RNG is by no means bad. Even attacks in fighting games have a small degree of variance in their damage. It’s bad when it trivializes strategy, however. My point about the random and strategic statement is that the “randomness” keeps it interesting but it’s “strategic” in the sense that there was a clear and objective behind it. But if you remove 3 boons of a category, hey! No RNG at all!
I’ve already explained to you why this version of RNG is bad. Re-read the example. It is not conducive or healthy for a competitive environment when a team can win a game based on luck.
MMOs, and specifically Guild Wars 2, already suffer enough from this. There’s no point in adding even more.
As the players have stated before it’d be difficult to tell what’s even going on. The game’s too chaotic to support that kind of a system, especially with the way boons can be reapplied.
That is not an inherent issue with the game. It is a skill issue of the players. Again, players can account for this. Whether they deem it necessary or are able to accomplish it is different from being unable to do it.
Let’s take Stand Your Ground and Save Yourselves, for example. The only way to practically remove the stability at that point is to use some sort of complete boon strip like Corrupt Boon.
Yes and that’s why boon stripping is so weak.
Boon stripping is weak, because players are able to account for the deterministic nature of boon removal and account for this by shielding them?
Funny, I remember not one post ago you saying this exact same thing was too chaotic to possibly use to any meaningful degree. And now that very thing is what makes boon removal weak.
As the players have stated before it’d be difficult to tell what’s even going on. The game’s too chaotic to support that kind of a system, especially with the way boons can be reapplied.
That is not an inherent issue with the game. It is a skill issue of the players. Again, players can account for this. Whether they deem it necessary or are able to accomplish it is different from being unable to do it.
Let’s take Stand Your Ground and Save Yourselves, for example. The only way to practically remove the stability at that point is to use some sort of complete boon strip like Corrupt Boon.
Not random in theory, but in practice it’s not even close to deliberate. Kind of like the rest of the battle system.
Inaction or inability of the player to accomplish something deliberately is not the same thing as random.
The fact of the matter is, you do dispel the most recently applied boon. You can account for this if you are the receiving player by refreshing a trash boon you don’t need.
If someone had 5 boons, and one of those was stability, and they were stomping one of your downed teammates, while three of the enemy were downed, would it be trivial then?
This is why random chance is not conducive to a competitive environment. The above situation would be determined by a dice role, and the outcome is significant enough to utterly change the outcome of the game. And the worst part is that this kind of situation is possible in the current game. Things like quickness on critical hit or a chance for conditions to convert into boons are terrible mechanics.
edit: The RNG rant was more a reply to your “random and strategic” boon removal.
Defensive Boons- Regen, Protection, Aegis
Offensive Boons- Might, Fury, Retaliation
Supportive Boons- Swiftness, Vigor, Stability
If a skill removes 2 from one category, the removal will still be random and interesting, but not so random as to not be strategic.
The most recently applied boon/condition has the highest priority to be removed. There is nothing random about it. Skills that add multiple boons/conditions have a built in priority already.
You can also use this to cover your boons/conditions from dispels to a degree.
balance for the pros/top 1%/whatever and the balance trickles down for everyone else.
simple.
Trickle down economics has never worked, does not work, and will not ever work.
It’s a myth, no it’s just a blatant lie, that some people have been suckered into believing.
In the end all you’ll be left with is that 1% player base as the other 99% say kitten this and leave. Then the 1% can complain about how there’s no population.
Video games are not real world economics, and it works for SC2.
No Condition Removal (Conditions are Warrior’s biggest weakness imo).
Only one true stun break (Last Stand trait). Frenzy’s gonna’ be used for offensive reasons and Dolyak Signet can’t be casted while stunned. Last Stand has a minute and a half cooldown.
Healing Signet has the lowest burst heal. No Signet Mastery makes this even worse. Not enough investment in Healing attribute makes this skill subpar.
You wanted mobility yet you didn’t take Mobile Strikes and you have no Condition Removal. What will you do when you get immobilized?
Superior Sigil of Fire isn’t as great as you think, especially with your build imo.
Um, no. Ignore these builds. FGJ and Shake it Off are absolutely terrible for PvP. Frenzy is required for any sort of burst, and so is bulls charge/bola.
And runes of divinity haven’t been a thing since beta.
As for condition removal, you sacrifice too much survivability and damage to get any meaningful amount, and even then it’s not often enough to be worth it. At most you can take signet of stamina or mending. Even then, signet of stamina is a 40+ second CD, and mending is 3k less healing and no adrenaline than Healing Surge. You’re going to be weak to conditions and immobile regardless of what you do, assuming you want to do any amount of damage.
yea i know it’s sponsored by blizzard, but you said “The only tournaments WoW ever has are player run and incredibly clunky since there’s no infrastructure to support it or any sort of observers.”
You are aware that ANet themselves funded their tournaments right? GW1 PvP was great, but it was no eSport.
so gw1 pvp was so kitten that only anet would fund tournaments? well… why the hell ppl want this to be like gw1 then o.O
WoW doesn’t even have tournaments. It doesn’t mean it doesn’t have fun PvP. GW1 wasn’t an eSport, neither is something like Tribes. It doesn’t mean either of them are bad games.
If eSport success is how we judge how good a game is, there’s about 3 or 4 games worth playing in the world atm.
But WoW has tournaments?
The only tournaments WoW ever has are player run and incredibly clunky since there’s no infrastructure to support it or any sort of observers.
The main problem is that the PVP team is much lower priority than the PVE team
This is the core of the problem. If we can somehow change that then great, but blaming the 2 and a half man sPvP team for slow changes won’t help much.
people keep saying this (pvp players mainly cuz they have no idea what’s up in pve) but its completely not true. in 7 months all they added is Fractals… how is this high pve priority? They add nothing in pve nor do they do anything in pvp, that’s the real problem.
They added the three months worth of events + working on the living story + fractals.
You also forget that the game actually shipped with PvE content. They don’t need to add what’s already there. There’s a reason why WvW is doing fine yet has received no content updates, it actually has content in the first place.
What did PvP players get? The tournament system. AKA probably the worst PvP concept I have ever seen. And they recently took away paid tournaments and replaced them with this new MMR system that doesn’t actually work since it pairs rank 1s with rank 50s.
well if you consider talking to npcs for 10 minutes and collect some kitten as a content (living story crap) then i seriously dunno what to say. Pve got fractals, pvp got map(s). Its even but really bad in both fronts if you ask me… In seven months much more stuff should be in the game especially when your game is known as no having any end game for pve and you wanna esport for pvp.
“You also forget that the game actually shipped with PvE content. They don’t need to add what’s already there. There’s a reason why WvW is doing fine yet has received no content updates, it actually has content in the first place.”
I just know you’re going to cherry pick from that too.
of course they shipped with pve content so did they shipped with spvp. That doesn’t mean there’s anything to do at level 80.
Minus the, what, 30 dungeons and world content?
PvP shipped with hotjoin and free tournaments. Somuchcontent
You are aware that ANet themselves funded their tournaments right? GW1 PvP was great, but it was no eSport.
so gw1 pvp was so kitten that only anet would fund tournaments? well… why the hell ppl want this to be like gw1 then o.O
WoW doesn’t even have tournaments. It doesn’t mean it doesn’t have fun PvP. GW1 wasn’t an eSport, neither is something like Tribes. It doesn’t mean either of them are bad games.
If eSport success is how we judge how good a game is, there’s about 3 or 4 games worth playing in the world atm.
But WoW has tournaments?
The only tournaments WoW ever has are player run and incredibly clunky since there’s no infrastructure to support it or any sort of observers.
You will never have this on this game becouse there is no monk or a support class, instead of having a game with team play they created a selfish game.
ps no guardian shout support is not support.
ps2 pressing F to ress an ally doesnt mean teamplay either lol
You don’t need a dedicated healer to make team gameplay. Having support is enough and there are many professions that can be build for support. Whether they are up to par yet that is another story.
I think the issue is that there’s no need for heavy support or a lot of team synergy, so people don’t do it. It’s not that it isn’t there, it’s just not worth the effort.
The main problem is that the PVP team is much lower priority than the PVE team
This is the core of the problem. If we can somehow change that then great, but blaming the 2 and a half man sPvP team for slow changes won’t help much.
people keep saying this (pvp players mainly cuz they have no idea what’s up in pve) but its completely not true. in 7 months all they added is Fractals… how is this high pve priority? They add nothing in pve nor do they do anything in pvp, that’s the real problem.
They added the three months worth of events + working on the living story + fractals.
You also forget that the game actually shipped with PvE content. They don’t need to add what’s already there. There’s a reason why WvW is doing fine yet has received no content updates, it actually has content in the first place.
What did PvP players get? The tournament system. AKA probably the worst PvP concept I have ever seen. And they recently took away paid tournaments and replaced them with this new MMR system that doesn’t actually work since it pairs rank 1s with rank 50s.
well if you consider talking to npcs for 10 minutes and collect some kitten as a content (living story crap) then i seriously dunno what to say. Pve got fractals, pvp got map(s). Its even but really bad in both fronts if you ask me… In seven months much more stuff should be in the game especially when your game is known as no having any end game for pve and you wanna esport for pvp.
“You also forget that the game actually shipped with PvE content. They don’t need to add what’s already there. There’s a reason why WvW is doing fine yet has received no content updates, it actually has content in the first place.”
I just know you’re going to cherry pick from that too.
You are aware that ANet themselves funded their tournaments right? GW1 PvP was great, but it was no eSport.
so gw1 pvp was so kitten that only anet would fund tournaments? well… why the hell ppl want this to be like gw1 then o.O
WoW doesn’t even have tournaments. It doesn’t mean it doesn’t have fun PvP. GW1 wasn’t an eSport, neither is something like Tribes. It doesn’t mean either of them are bad games.
If eSport success is how we judge how good a game is, there’s about 3 or 4 games worth playing in the world atm.
The main problem is that the PVP team is much lower priority than the PVE team
This is the core of the problem. If we can somehow change that then great, but blaming the 2 and a half man sPvP team for slow changes won’t help much.
people keep saying this (pvp players mainly cuz they have no idea what’s up in pve) but its completely not true. in 7 months all they added is Fractals… how is this high pve priority? They add nothing in pve nor do they do anything in pvp, that’s the real problem.
They added the three months worth of events + working on the living story + fractals.
You also forget that the game actually shipped with PvE content. They don’t need to add what’s already there. There’s a reason why WvW is doing fine yet has received no content updates, it actually has content in the first place.
What did PvP players get? The tournament system. AKA probably the worst PvP concept I have ever seen. And they recently took away paid tournaments and replaced them with this new MMR system that doesn’t actually work since it pairs rank 1s with rank 50s.
It’s not like PvP development is hard. Adding the features is probably far easier than PvE, since there’s a lot more replayability. Add one map, play it 100s of times. Add a dungeon, play it once or until you get your gear.
I’m not sure I agree with all your categories… Some of them seem redundant (No high damage abilities? That doesn’t necessarily mean attrition…)
Categories I’d use would be something like:
Survivability (Health, healing, other defences) – 7/10
High health, Heal skills are good (Consume Conditions = Amazing especially for attrition) and DS is great survival tool. Let down by the lack of dodges, limited boons (Protection, Vigor, Regeneration (Outside of Staff)) and limited defence from utilities
DPS (How much damage is dealt, how easy is it to sustain, how can it be countered) – 6/10
Direct damage isn’t very high and hard to maintain as there’s limited movement capabilities and lockdown (Outside perma-chill builds) and boons will counter it as anti-boon tools favour condition builds.
Condition damage is good, not reliant on high stacks of Bleed so condition removal tools have limited effect, can convert boons into conditions and transfer conditions from self to targets. Conditions also have relatively short cooldowns allowing them to be reapplied fairly easily.
Lockdown (How much disable is available, how easy is it to get it off, how effective is it) 3/10
A few chills, a cripple and an immobilise. Can be built for perma-chill but still can only lock a single target down reliably. Has access to a few fears aswell, but only 2 are reliable and are on pretty long cooldown with short (1 second duration)
Mobility (How easy is it to move around, how easy is it to prevent being controlled, can you stay with your target) – 5/10
Conditions such as Cripple, Chill and Immobilise can be removed and/or sent to opponents preventing loss of mobility. The lack of movement speed and gap closers (Outside DS #2) hamper keeping up with classes with mobility tools (Such as Ride the Lightning, Rush, Leap of Faith, Infiltrator’s Arrow, Swoop, Super Speed, Portal)
Giving a score of 21/40
I’d end up giving a P/D Thief (Attrition based build):
Survivability – 10/10 Regen in stealth, can spec for heals when using initiative, stealth to try and avoid being targeted, can get extra dodges through Feline Grace giving 25% endurance back after dodging
DPS – 7/10 Constant pressure from multiple bleeds, as well as a not-too bad direct damage from applying them and using CnD to stealth
Lockdown – 3/10 Can perma-cripple but uses up initiative that’s needed to deal damage, can use Scorpion Wire to pull someone in but that’s about it aside from Basalisk Venom Elite skill
Mobility – 5/10 has access to multiple Shadow Steps which can allow movement and condition cleansing but they tend to have moderate to high cooldowns. The weapon set doesn’t have much mobility itself and it would cost initiative and therefore lower DPS if used.
Giving P/D Thieves a total of 25/40. Which while not great still beats out Necro’s
you gave the thief the same score for mobility as a necro, you are so clueless it isn’t even funny.
Thief is easily in the top 3 for mobility classes.
It’s easily the second most mobile class only behind eles. On Khylo thief can exploit the clocktower better than an ele could though.
assuming by all the messages in Spvp forums everyone wants gw1 features… so there is a lot of players playing gw1 and the competitive scene is still alive? or is everyone just talking kitten and #nostalgia
Warriors with their bulls charge ability? 1 STUN BREAKER, done. i cant beleive people even try to bring warriors into light.
My question, why isnt anyone mentioning how shorthanded engineers are? They bunker WORSE than warriors, and have no movement ability at all.
1) bullrush CD is low
40 seconds is a low CD?
and warriors have other abilities to hold down the enemy. A good warrior would try and bait the stun breaker before using a quickness HB. A good warrior is in fact quite scarey.
We have a 1 second immobilize per cripple if we take the trait in tactics. How will we bait out a stun breaker exactly? We have two stuns, and shield bash only lasts for 1 second. Never mind the fact that Bulls Charge has a 1 second cast time on it, making it ridiculously easy to dodge.
A good warrior is not scary. Put one cripple on him and use common sense and they die. A good warrior destroys hotjoin matches, that’s it.
I’d take bola over bulls charge, but half the time it just obstructs or hits someone else, and the other half the time since the hitbox is so small it flat out misses the target randomly. Bola is not reliable. I don’t like to roll a dice to see if I’m going to have a chance to win this fight or not.
There’s a reason my best 1v1 match up is against a warrior.
I like the idea of making the sPvP section F2P, and make it separate like how GW1 was. I think that’s a really big barrier for GW2 atm. They can’t make really large changes to how classes work or whatever because they don’t want new players to be confused. They don’t want to redesign the warrior or ranger because of their current performance in the PvE world.
Personally, I don’t give a kitten about how different PvP is from PvE anyways, but that’s ArenaNet’s stance. Further separating the two would only be beneficial at this point.
c.) Infrastructure for competitive sPVP (arenas, weekly tournaments, ladders…etc)
^dis
But there’s no reason they can’t do all of them. I doubt (hope) that the same people working on class balance also are responsible for the development of these features.
Honestly, they should just like, make a month the PvP month for development. Just put the PvE team and have them develop these features. At the rate ArenaNet is going, they have like… 3 PvP developers.
I noticed that rush will still steer towards a target after they stealth. I think it’s the result of the recent patch where they changed it so NPCs don’t de-aggro anymore.
Damage Mitigation/Effective Health + High Healing > High Health + Little Healing
It’s like people have never played any MMOs before this. Would you heal a tank with 100k health and 0% damage reduction or 50k health and 50% damage reduction?
Up to date from all the above, I am just curious to see if the Spvp community is happy with the direction of the game.
There is no direction to be happy about. ArenaNet has no idea what it’s doing at the moment. When was the last time you saw a company remove a large feature of its game like paid tournaments?
The entire sPvP situation is just a mess. It’s an amalgamation of concepts and hopes that were never fulfilled. Look at the tournament interface. Or look at the Wall of Champions which hasn’t been updated once in it’s entire existence. Most people only even know that exists because they use the fire nearby to test healing.
You could say my answer is a resounding sigh of disappointment.
I just want more game modes. I hate conquest but I agree that they should focus on a single competitive mode, even if it’s something as terrible as node capturing. Honestly they can’t go back now on conquest as the main mode, but they should still add more casual modes (arena and CTF being the main two that come to mind)
Don’t tally me because this poll is flawed, or tally me as no since that’s has the correct connotation.
The arrogance of this person is getting beyond funny.
The game style he plays is the only one that matters.
Only those who share an opinion the same as his, have valid opinions.
I do wonder how these people survive in the real world?
All I know is that someone with limited knowledge of a certain subject, shouldn’t be allowed to have an opinion.
And that would include you. It is indeed beyond funny how that simple fact annoys you.
People need to stop caring that other people are going to be offended about something. The simple fact is if you don’t properly understand the subject being discussed, don’t take part in it. To just parrot this entire thread, that means hotjoin players should not have an opinion on PvP balance.
I can go into hotjoin and easily destroy people with some random condi warrior. Condition warriors are still absolutely terrible. I can go into hotjoin and bunker 5 people for a full minute, but that doesn’t mean my bunker warrior build is now suddenly viable.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think there was an option to join game from anywhere in the world in beta (at least hotjoin). Not sure why it was removed.
Yes, there was a Play Now! button on the PvP panel. It looks way different than it does now. I think they removed it so people wouldn’t think they were stuck with that default build and they were forced to go through the tutorial.
Yes, it actually is the same problem – a 100b war kills most of people that have just joined pvp, since they have no knowledge of how to counter them. Same goes for BS thief, same goes to almost any glass cannon build.
100b takes more than a second to be executed and you can clearly see the warrior bullrushing to you (or shield bashing, or throwing bolas). It means that the time you have to react is way, way higher.
So no, it isn’t the same problem.
Bulls Charge has a cast time of 1 second, plus the very slight delay after Bulls Charge when you 100B. Optional Frenzy before the Bulls Charge makes it 0.5 seconds.
It’s still probably the most obvious animation in the game with the exception of churning earth.
next time before nothing happens and then something happens ill make sure to press something so the next something kills me.
The only time a thief should ever get you like that is if he comes at you off screen or your hand slips. Of course, binding dodge to a mouse key works too. Mine is directly under where my thumb rests, so there’s virtually no delay in reaction -> action -> key press.
Yeah, the damage is ridiculous and it’s too easy to pull off for the effect it has, but I’m getting really tired of all these posts. Every day for the last 7 months, there’s always that one person kittening about backstab. They’re not going to change it.
Honestly I want more people to complain about a thief with a shortbow. It’s literally impossible to catch one or hit one with all the cripple and evades. But want to know something? They’re still not OP.
MM seems dysfunctional cause there aren’t enough people playing GW2 PvP right now.
Why aren’t there enough people playing it though? because no incentives, no goals to aim for as a player/team.
And no actual infrastructure to facilitate any sort of a serious competitive scene.
Look at sPvP in the beta. Now look at it like 10 months later. It’s like they don’t even try. I’m still trying to come to terms with how terrible of a failure this “eSport” was after all the promise it showed.
My personal favorite is custom servers being a “top priority feature” since September-October. Yup, still waiting.
They are unnaturally poor at condition builds. If you want to do condition damage, don’t take a warrior. Sword and Longbow are their only real condi weapons, and the split between condi and direct is such that you really don’t do much overall damage.
By the way, Combustive Shot does equivalent damage if you build pure power as if you built pure condition damage. Something that I learned too late.
I feel like no matter what profession forum i’m on they claim they’re the worst at clearing conditions. Its not like every proffesion you fight runs heavy conditions to the point you would NEED to wipe them…or have several condition wipes at your disposal with every spec. I think people are over inflating this as an actually problem…if this was really the case then conditions themselves need nerfed, which they dont…they actually hinted at increasing their damage.
Specifically with warriors, their issue is with having to either sacrifice all their damage for condi removal, or take really long CD condi removal that’s completely overkill.
If they added in the middle of the road things like 20 second CD and remove 4 condis it would be a lot better.
It’s also important to differentiate between conditions that damage you and debilitating conditions like cripple and immobilize.
Honestly Dolyak Signet is just plain worse than Balanced Stance. IMO, the two are too similar for there ever to be a choice. I think they should just flat out make Dolyak Signet give something other than stability.
Ingame name: Larynx.2453
Main Class / Potential Classes (Incase team requires): Warrior, necro/guardian to lesser extent
Region: US Eastern
Practice Times: Any time
Experience: MMO PvP experience mainly with WoW arena, avg of about 2300 rating. Played regularly with a team in GW2, took a break for 3ish months, now looking for one
