All they need to do is adjust how stealth works, and the thief class will no longer be so OP. Make it so any attack the one in stealth throws out that is blocked or evaded immediately throws them out of stealth and gives them reveal. That’s pretty much all stealth needs to actually not be so OP. Because as of right now you can dodge an attack perfectly and all it does to the one in stealth is make him shrug and go for another attack while in stealth…which is what makes stealth OP. You make it so a failed attack gives reveal, and grats, you’ve nerfed stealth just the right amount and made all this QQing about thieves being OP most likely go away.
Yes, this is a good suggestion. Stealth attacks shouldn’t be “spam until it hits” like they are now.
Yesterday evening a lot of guardians were running away from me, the moment I attacked them. I downed one, but then his ally came to revive him. I killed both alone. Neither were upleveled and in fact one of them is from a famous guild, which is considered very good. How is that?
And that is in EU tier #1, which probably has a bit higher level of play you have in NA. E.g. the thief in your screen shot is trying to run away along the road. Here they usually shadowstep away and stealth. One of our Desolation guilds, IRON, recently moved to Sanctum of Rally. Just one guild. Look how fast SoR is now rising up in your tier and might soon take the #1 spot, despite it was #3 a week ago just before IRON arrived there.
Well, tier 1 has more zergs and so less room for small scale, skill based combat. Spamming #1 with massive skill lag doesn’t really make you a better duelist. The tiers are also mainly affected by the total population and coverage of a server, not the skill of the players in those servers.
Some guards can do 1v1 fairly well. It can be build wars that you are experiencing here. I know several guards that kick kitten of the thieves that I lose to, but I still win those guardians without too much trouble. I play glass shatter mesmer.
Duels are really all about build wars. The other day there was this dagger / dagger bunker ele. The best thief I know of couldn’t do much against him, yet though it was quite difficult, I could eventually down him several times. Against this thief however, I have zero chances with my shatter build.
You think it is fair that thieves have unparalleled ability to reset a fight and get past or even walk though enemy troops without getting attacked, perform stealth stomps and run a full glass cannon without much risk of dying?
Yes. That’s entirely fine and I think it’s intented. Resetting a fight isn’t that big deal in this game anyway since you don’t lose / gain anything from a fight. I just think that more classes should be able to relatively easily reset a fight, to make them more fun when it comes to roaming. The maps are very small and crowded which makes it pain for everyone else but thief.
It’s just that thief has certain noob friendly features that should be looked on. One of those is the d/p stealth spamming build which is very easy to pull off and has next to no counters.
Nothing has been proven, it is what it is unless shown otherwise. You seem to forget Jacklo, that players can trait either for WvW or sPvP. I’m well aware that a warrior or ranger traited for sPvP will probably wipe the floor with a thief if both players are of similar skill level. I don’t know of many people who trait for single player in WvW..
If you can prove otherwise.. then by all means, if you can’t, well.. zip it
In regards to the other situation, 2 of the members were in my guild on a different server (i swapped about 3 weeks ago), this happened just prior to that. The other 4 were not, so I don’t know about their skill levels. Of the 2, one was a warrior, the other a guardian; guardian built tanky as far as I know, but im not sure how the warrior was built. Neither of them have any problems soloing most fights. I was in a keep near by manning a mortar trying to shell a group battle behind them.
What do I see in the end.. 6 of those pretty blue revive signs over corpses.. lol. Ya.. something needs to be done.
Thief doesn’t have magic tricks to solo 6 good players. Video or it didn’t happen.
As for nerffing thieves, d/p needs some sort of tuning.
They weren’t new players, they were on my old guild who have been playing quite sometime in both WvW and pvp. 2 of them were tanky types.. not sure about the other 4 though.
You see there is not much you can do if a thief decides to break stealth and nearly kill a bunker build on their first hit, then get lucky with the next strike to kill.. if not, just stealth, rinse and repeat.. before anybody can act.
This should not be the case. Stealth should be given at minimum a 15s cooldown after a thief comes out of stealth
Roll a thief and see how often you can solo 6. It just wont work against players that aren’t very new. You might have a chance of winning against 3, but not 6.
Men just link it, ppl will compare videos.
It is just impossible to solo so many players (I counted about 10 above) with non thief class like this gay. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHOpACoX4ic
All of the enemy players in that video are clearly very new. Seriously, that thief carries dagger storm. In any real fight that gets you killed in about 2 seconds. He’s also no doubt a very good thief, but my point is that should there been more seasoned players in those groups, he would have taken big chunks of damage while spinning, forcing him to cancel it. But what happent instead ? The fools kept bouncing projectiles to themselves.
This is just broken. As been told there is no other evidence (video) that any other class can do that.
They could perhaps win the fights, d/d certainly can, but the problem is that they can’t roam without being chased down constantly. That’s why you see mostly thief solo videos.
By playing thief, you are already playing at a disadvantage to at least 4 other professions whose very powerful builds are all capable of holding their own vs every profession and who can easily beat thieves…
I’ve seen a thief solo 6 people without getting hit.. how many other classes can do that? Under no circumstance should any class be able to continually reset a fight until they have everyone wiped out.
That takes 6 very new players who have no idea what they are doing. In some rare scenarios* my thief can perhaps tank / troll 6 players, but no way in hell can I get any of them down (unless if they really let me do that), let alone stomp.
*Suitable combination of
-newbies
-low damage builds
-upscales
-mobs to to cause chaos & to chain stealth from.
Funny that if any of the enemy had any common sense and dropped a stealth trap soon as they got their supply, both these guys woulda died.
I don’t think you understand thief mechanics:
Shadow refuge at distance => start channeling trap => shadow step to zerg => shadow step away. Even if by some magic they will indeed catch the thief, he can just portal to keep and run back to do it again
It doesn’t have to be. Could be that every class is designed to have similar potential for disengagements so that everyone can roam effectively. The chasers don’t have to win, but right now they’ll always win against some classes and never win against others. That’s pretty much what imbalanced means.
I don’t know. Are the idiots chasing 10v1 any better than the thief trolling them? Why should the game be balanced so that the chasers win? Inbalance that allows you to avoid these noob blobs is more than justified.
Low risk – high reward is not good because it removes any decision making process.
The thing is, roaming as a thief is not low risk – high reward. It is low risk – low reward. Zerging and blobbing however is truly low risk – high reward.
Ahahah, so funny! Poor fools can’t do anything when thief steals their supply. ;D
I mean, before you could only troll if the idiots would allow it, but now thief decides when to play. ;D
All I’m hearing is “Nerf Thieves because I only know how to hack and slash.”
This.
I faced many thieves in 1 vs 1 duels, and believe me you cant kill skilled thief, he will hide and hunt you down when all your best skills are wasted and reloading. Of curse there is many poor thief players, but it is steel hard to kill them compared with any other poor players. They do that absolutely with little risk. You can win with skilled thief only by luck and this is absolutely insane and need to be fixed.
What spec do you run ? Say a semi decent d/d bunker Ele should destroy even the best thief out there.
Try any class/spec, you are doomed. In 1 vs 1 thief has god mode.
I used to beat most thieves (not the condition ones) with my confusion shatter mesmer. I still also win against a fair percentage of them with my shatter damage build, though it’s indeed not possible against the better ones.
However, I have seen some thieves that I know to be excellent to fail badly against d/d ele.
Now if ONLY they could give some of the classes a skill or trait that allows them to break stealth, Arkanfel. Then we’ll really be cooking.
I’m a firm believer that if you are going to include stealth in a game, that you HAVE to have some kind of reveal ability too. Developers (in a lot of MMOs, not just GW2) are trying to get way too cute with the stuff you can do in stealth and the limitations of its utility.
Personally I think thief/rogue classes should have more evade/dodge/block/parry abilities and less outright “hurr I go invis nao” crap. Thieves are sneaky and quick, but only in MMOs can they go completely invisible. Paper dice game builders seemed to realize this, game developers either don’t or choose to ignore the principle.
But in a game where you have a radar and a targeting computer, you can’t sneak around if you aren’t invisible.
All I’m hearing is “Nerf Thieves because I only know how to hack and slash.”
This.
I faced many thieves in 1 vs 1 duels, and believe me you cant kill skilled thief, he will hide and hunt you down when all your best skills are wasted and reloading. Of curse there is many poor thief players, but it is steel hard to kill them compared with any other poor players. They do that absolutely with little risk. You can win with skilled thief only by luck and this is absolutely insane and need to be fixed.
What spec do you run ? Say a semi decent d/d bunker Ele should destroy even the best thief out there.
Ruby orbs >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> divinity runes for zerger thief. If you want more health then Beryl. But just why would you want that +60 thoughness and healing power from runes when you otherwise went for almost full damage? Makes no sense at all.
Those who claim that you didn’t outplay the thief if he managed to get away are just full of it. There’s no class that can reliably prevent a thief from escaping if they want. By their logic, every single thief who escapes has “outplayed” their opponent.
Having said that, I try and prevent thieves from escaping by hurting their ego. I open chat and /say “lol” or “run run”. I’ve often found this infuriates the thief enough to come back and die to me. Never underestimate the size of a thief’s ego
Many thiefs out there are just trolls (myself included). Their goal is to kitten off the enemy. If they achieve that by running away, they have won their little, petty game. Oh, those moments when you see incoming party invite from the enemy. Just priceless. :P
what PERCENTAGE do YOU think is FAIR for thieves to successfully land a BACKSTAB?
I land it about 80% time but it depends on my opponents skill, class and build.
And thats when I play d/x thief. When I play p/d, I land Sneak attack almost always.
At what % of Back stab attempts should a thief be successful ? <——-plz answer.
There is no definite answer to this question.
ps. Travlane, it’s pain for other people to read long posts written in the “flow of thought” -style.
Thieves are the biggest joke in the game right now, People really need to L2P if they can’t beat a thief 1v1 100% of the time.
Seems like 99% of Aurora Glade, Riverside, Far Shiverpeaks and Millers need to L2P because of my thief. Yet same time it seems that I need to L2P as well. Interesting!
well its all about definition. if u think the definition should be change thats a different story. but think about it in a realistic sense if thats possible bc all this is really Science fiction / fantasy. if you are invis do you think missing an attack is going to reveal you to your enemy or actually physically touching them? i think this is were anet was trying to go with this. plus the way it balances.
Perhaps not. But in reality it isn’t possible to stealth in the first place ;P. And besides, I dont want thief to get revealed from missing an attack. I want stealth attacks to have a small cool down, maybe 3 seconds.
even tho everyone seems to ignore the s on successful backstabs. they think it should be under 10? what does everyone thing backstab should be at for a successful hit. lets start with that. you guys cant just ask for change without comprehending the implications of that change. find out what is “fair” then figure a way to get there once you have a goal. right now all ur saying is from YOUR perception its not fair. and from a THIEVES perception it is fair. so how does one / anet decide on how or if to change somethign. they first decide upon a goal….then they figure out the %s of success as currently is. then derive a plan of attack to fix the problem from there. i dont mind if change needs to be made. but the question is….does it?
I think it would be entirely fine to have 3 second cool down on all stealth attacks. I play a thief a lot and it often feels just ugh, kittened to spam that #1 key… Note that this wont even hurt the good thieves that much:
currently: target has aegis=> spam #1.
after that change: target has block => use dancing dagger to remove the block => back stab.
now just petty arguing….i could compare apples to oranges all day so here we go: according to your analogy…. warriors dont lose adrenaline when their burst misses….does that mean thieves shouldnt lose initiative when their attack misses? …..
well lets compare steal…..steal is a 45s cooldown and if it “misses” or aka “out of range” it ALSO has a cooldown .
Stop saying it’s comparing apples to oranges when it is not. Just like there is a penalty in missing with every other type of skill in the game, there should be a penalty in missing with a stealth attack.
there is a difference to a prerequisite condition and a prerequisite cost. intiative is a prerequisite cost…….stealth is a prerequisite condition. shattering mesmers is a cost…. hence not being able to shatter without them.
Shatter:
prerequisite condition: have clones or phants to shatter.
cost: lose the clones and phants EVEN IF IT WILL NOT HIT.
Backstab:
prerequisite condition: have stealth.
cost: lose stealth but ONLY IF IT HITS.
we have apples and oranges here. they are all designed separate according to what their class needs/ is fair for.
For gods sake, quit repeating that mantra about apples and oranges.
ok adrenaline is kinda close…but its like backstab….ON damage. his rage will not go away until he fulfills that bloodlust by actually hurting another.
Warrior will not lose adrenaline if the burst misses, but the skill will go to a cool down. Backstab doesn’t go to any cool down even if it misses.
clone shatter is 100% totally different. it does not say deal dmg to surrounding players and shatter if you do. it says shatter then deal damage if there are surrounding players.
You are arguing just schematics here.
In essence the point is that there is no penalty from hitting air with backstab. If warrior misses his burst skill, the skill goes to 10second cool down. If mesmer misses his shatters, he loses clones and the shatter skill goes to cool down.
no other class has a “lose this effect when you deal dmg” type of skill. stealth is unique. its comparing apples n oranges.
Other classes have stealth too, smart guy. They just don’t have the spammable stealth attack.
sorry maybe i missed one. what other class has a skill LIKE stealth that is “remove this skill/effect when player deals dmg” ?
For example
Warrior: adrenaline is lost when he lands his burst skill.
Mesmer: clones are lost when shatter is attempted, regardless of if the shatter lands or not.
Mesmer, Engineer, Ranger: stealth is lost if they deal damage while stealthed.
Losing stealth on dealing damage is a general feature of stealth and isn’t in anyway unique to thieves.
no other class has a “lose this effect when you deal dmg” type of skill. stealth is unique. its comparing apples n oranges.
Other classes have stealth too, smart guy. They just don’t have the spammable stealth attack.
There are other such “lose this effect when you deal dmg” things too, for example
-mesmer loses his phantasms when he attempts to deal damage via shatters.
-warrior loses adrenaline related bonuses when he deals damage with his burst skill.
We have to fight Thieves that Stealth too, we have no real special tools to deal with it infact we have less then say a class with a ton of quick AoE, yet no Thief complains about Stealth.
Just a random thought as I sit here and drink this cup of tears.
I hope you are kidding. Do you know what people mean by counter stealthing ? :P
I like when I land Cloak and Dagger on stealth Thieves because as a Thief I know he doesn’t magically vanish into pixie dust when he’s invisible.
No, shhh! People out there still believe in magic, don’t ruin it for them.
I don’t think a thief missing backstab because they are out-of-range should reveal them
I do think a thief’s backstab missing because of blind, block, dodge-roll, etc. should reveal the thief. The backstab did not miss. It did “hit”, but was countered so that “hit” is transformed into an “evaded”, “blocked”, etc.
This would make sense, if warriors lost adrenaline when they fail a burst skill. If mesmer had all clone and phantasm abilities put on a GCD anytime they miss a shatter skill. Etc Etc
If mesmer shatters, the shatter ability goes to cl and he loses all phantasms and clones whetever they hit the foe or not.
If warrior uses an adrenaline skill and misses, the adrenaline skill goes to 10sec cl but warrior does not lose adrenaline.
Thief is the only exception here. Stealth Attacks should have a small cool down, personally I suggest 3 seconds. Revealed does not need to proc on missed attack though.
Well there were people who would create new characters multiple times a day to farm that chest… No, this isn’t the right way to fix that issue but since when has Anet fixed anything in the right way?
So many noobs in this thread. Seriously learn to count to 4 and no more c&d chaining. D;
I think it’s entirely fine that a good thief can give something to think for all these zombies running in zergs. In that particular video they seem a lot dumber than AI.
5 thieves doing this = broken.
It’s not that simple. The reason it works is that those idiots in the video don’t know what’s going on. If you try to do this against a guild group you are dead in 1 second.
That is the reality, it’s not being properly taken advantage of. If those 5 thieves intentionally targeted the few classes that could interfere with them one at a time, the rest would be easy pickins. 1 thief gets downed? He gets stealth from self/friend then teleports to the side and the others spike the guy they were targetting while everyone is distracted. What, rally, no way!.
Please, the group will just blob and spam aoe.
Any muppet can pick up a thief & do some stuff that really shouldn``t be in this game (or any that is hoping to be an esportlol).
WvW has never meant to be very balanced, let alone esport.
Unless you are a burst spec you don’t kill a good thief. If you are some tanky, low dps build then there is just no way in hell any decent thief dies to you. Sorry.
To pay for this thieves also not very good duelists. On the same skill level thief will more lose (run away) than win.
This is probably the biggest BS I have seen in these forums in quite a while.
Bvenom is so much better than dagger storm. Dagger storm is really the only trash elite thief has. Using that against any semi good opponent only gets you killed. D;
Because they can’t.
The glassiest cannon in all Berserkertown could not kill a fellow glass cannon in 1-3 hits.
I don’t think you could kill an up-leveled level 2 in WvW in a single hit.
They sure can. mug 1k, BS 9k, cloack and dagger 5k = 15k,. Also, warrior KS: 12-18k.
I duel as a glass mesmer and I tend to lose to zerger thieves who know how to handle that type fight. Though such fight is essentially coin flipping, with right use of stealth skills the thief can alter the weight of the coin a little.
Backstab should not be spammable like it is currently. 3 sec cooldown would be good. Note that this wouldn’t be a nerf, just a way to make thief less noob friendly as a class. Currently it’s definitely the most hand-helding of all professions.
Some classes can still have the OP’s suggested effect though. Say, if mesmer blocks / evades near his clones, the thief’s backstab lands on a clone, revealing him. Same for ranger evading near his pet.
Stealth finisher, what’s the point of having downed skills if you can’t use them?
Heartseeker, the damage on this is so overpowered, as of it can be used up to 5 times when at full initiative. How to kill someone as a Heartseeker spammer: 3k, 3k, 3k, 5k, 8k, -dead- if they are bunker, they will be less than 30% health.
Cloak and Dagger, let’s see; up to 7k damage, stacks vulnerability, AND stealths you! wtf?
Betting 1 million bucks a thief player will quote me and say something similar to: L2P
As it stands, Mesmer is by far the most OP class for 1v1 in this game.
You will lose to good thieves and eles… You should attend to fight clubs in WvW in order to find people who can actually fight back. People in fight clubs are very used to fighting mesmers and know your build through and through. It’s entirely differend from some random spvp dudes doing their dailys. For gods sake, hot join is generally easier than lvl 10 fractals.
When you show me a video where you streamroll the best duelists of your opposing servers in WvW, I will agree that mesmer is indeed the #1 duel class. Let’s see if you actually have some meat to back up your so far quite empty words.
Currently and otherwise I believe it’s either d/d ele or a decent thief.
It is just the staple shatter build, 20/20/0/0/30. With Sword/Pistol (or sword)—-Staff. Sigil for Sword-Fire, Pistol-Leeching (my preferred), Staff—Leeching. Since you can only swap weapons every 10 seconds you will get the leeching effect every time which heals for 1-1.5k which is nice.
Traits:
20 First Line: Trait I and VII
20 Second Line: Trait V (or II) and X
0 Third
0 Fourth
30 Fifth: Trait I, VI, and XI
Pretty standard all except for the sigil. The Runes I run are divinity if I remember correctly to round out a little health and armor. I also use a berserker amulet.
Interesting. Whisp me in game and I shall duel you with my duel specced p/d thief. I’m not the best thief out there but still, if you win the fight easily I’ve got something to learn from you.
Unless the Thief was hacking, they were not immune to any damage.
- he wasn’t, but no one could tag him. We randomly dropped AoE, swung mindlessly in the area he disappeared. But he moved around so quickly it was difficult to do any real damage to him.
This is very easy for a dodger thief to do if you just randomly spam aoe… You need to stun lock him to have effect. Burst rifle warrior also destroys any thief like that. I play a thief like that and I can easily roll against 5 medicore players who don’t have heavy damage builds. Yes, I’ve been called a hacker too. ;D
No hacker is immune to damage. To get damage immunity you would haveto crack into anet’s server, which would be quite difficult. Not something a random script kiddy can pull off.
I don’t know about technical limitations, but please consider using pvp balance in the separate EB JP map. The action in the jumping puzzle is almost always more similar to pvp than the other wvw maps, which makes the balance in the JP quite broken.
That puzzle is not meant to be balanced. It’s a grief fest, just as it’s meant to be.
Not a lair nor do I intend to hurt. I am merely posting the truth of what the Mesmer class is and can do. It is truly a different world when playing a Mesmer than a Warrior. The amount of ease is staggering. I would suggest playing another class like Warrior as it would help you see how hard other professions have to try.
Bunker guards and a necro are both fairly easy opponents for say a shatter mesmer, though it depens on what build the necro is running. But good luck against a p/d thief or a decent sword thief in WvW. In fact, excellent d/d thieves will also destroy you.
If I understand right, OP is a Gandaran having a go at some [JDGE] guys dueling. I don’t know who OP is, but I’m willing to bet he’s probably someone of no importance.
This is exactly the type of arrogance that isn’t needed in the game. And, if there is a queue, duelers need to take it sPvP. I know this really doesn’t exists on my Tier. I’d make certain they were Zerg Rolled for taking up the queue.
Please, the effect of dueling to the manpower of a server is mariginal. Here is why:
duelers don’t want to play in a queued map because they want everyone to be able to join and they also like to swap toons every now and then. In addition, queued maps often have lots of skill lag which makes duelists either leave or change map.
I’d make certain they were Zerg Rolled for taking up the queue.
In that’s the case, you might wanna start zerg rolling the EB jumping puzzle…
At least you get my point, if the duelers want to play their way that is A-OK with me. Just remember you are in an open zone and there are no rules as to who gets to attack who. Its the whining on both sides that I find ridiculous. This forum in general is full of blowhard e-toughs and “nerf it” Nellies. Oh well, that’s the internet for ya.
If you wanna distrubt a fight club, then by all means, you can try. Just be prepared that some of your own server mates might not look highly upon you after that*, and that during the fight some of them will side with the other clubbers instead of you.
But! In the end the random trouble makers make open world dueling exciting! It’s often a nice diversion / drama when some fools come to screw around. :P
*Trouble maker is a trouble maker. In my eyes you might as well be doing siege cap griefing, wasting keep supplies or just flooding the chat.
Well, there used to be an “unoffical” costume brawl group near the Tengu Gate of Lions Arch. They had their own “honorable” and organised rules such as having to /dance before starting the costume brawl fight. If you would join in the fight without obeying their rules, they would call you with funny names and all concentrate on you. Clear violation of ToS. So, I reported their ill behavior and also made a mile long analysis about them into these offical forums. I am not sure what happent to them but I haven’t seen them since. I assume that they finally realised it’s not acceptable to come with your own idea of fun.
By the way, thanks for bringing up this important issue about dueling.
Well glass shatter has really hard time against a decent glass thief. Mainly because thief will win the stealthing game and so mesmer has to be the one reacting. P/D thief will also defeat most mesmers trivially. Some glassy phantasam mesmers with right traits will still win against those too, though.
Lol, i just dueled this amazing ranger and lost like 3 times in a row. He then decides to call Mesmers OP after he beat me haha. Some people…
Ranger is almost kittened in spvp… In wvw its differend though, they can’t just face tank everything there.
My main is a mesmer but I also have a thief. And I have to say that thief >>>>>>>>>>> mesmer…
