There’s nothing random about selecting “join ranked match”. And in fact, one could, and probably should, infer that a “ranked match” means you are supposed to “give a jack kitten”
But what if I still just don’t? I mean, I do not. At least not until they add some good reason to win.
I’ll quote it again so you can re-read it and figure it out for yourself
My point is, those who want to only have fun and run silly builds should stick to duel servers or hotjoin, game modes that are basically TDM and so casual that you aren’t screwing other over by running what you want because nobody else is taking things seriously. This applies to any game, not just GW2.
doesn’t sound like PvP is the place for you.
I don’t think that you understand. I might for example want to see if my silly experimental build can still win me soloq games. I can’t do this by doing hot zerg. I also don’t bother when I can just do soloq. Like, whos stopping me?
When I play SoloQ I want to win, so if someone joins with a crappy joke build for “fun,” chances are we’re going to lose.
Do teamq. It doesn’t matter a flying kitten what you want or what is the idea of soloq. It’s the internets, people do what they please because they can.
If soloq is intented to be competitive, then it’s design is fundamentally flawled. You can’t have these competitive fights in a random setup because most of these players simply do not care who wins. I know I don’t.
At first it surprised me that so few people here seem to understand economics. But then I realized how bad most people are at managing their own finances that it really isn’t so surprising that this discussion is taking place.
Just to clarify what should be common knowledge:
- Opportunity cost is not an “opinion.”
- Opportunity cost is not a “perspective.”
- Opportunity cost is not a “point of view.”
Opportunity costs exists with every choice you make whether you like it or not.
Except that you’re playing a game…where how much ‘economics’ you want to deal with is completely up to you.
By your logic, you are wasting 7.25$ an hour sitting on your kitten playing a game, when you could instead by out working a minimum wage part time job. Seems you’re choosing to ignore ‘opportunity cost’ just fine there because it doesn’t suit your view.
He is yes, in a way. Doesn’t refute his point.
Which then in turn proves perspective and point of view. We did not say that opportunity costs don’t exist, simply that we don’t consider it, just as he doesn’t consider it when he’s playing the game.
At first it surprised me that so few people here seem to understand economics. But then I realized how bad most people are at managing their own finances that it really isn’t so surprising that this discussion is taking place.
Just to clarify what should be common knowledge:
- Opportunity cost is not an “opinion.”
- Opportunity cost is not a “perspective.”
- Opportunity cost is not a “point of view.”
Opportunity costs exists with every choice you make whether you like it or not.
Except that you’re playing a game…where how much ‘economics’ you want to deal with is completely up to you.
By your logic, you are wasting 7.25$ an hour sitting on your kitten playing a game, when you could instead by out working a minimum wage part time job. Seems you’re choosing to ignore ‘opportunity cost’ just fine there because it doesn’t suit your view.
He is yes, in a way. But it doesn’t refute his point. Sometimes the fun gained by gaming is also more valuable than a petty 7.25$.
Well, gw2 is an item mall game. There are lot more warriors than mesmer players, especially in WvW. Most rookie players are also irritated by mesmer. Thus it’s logical to keep the warrior player base pleased and nerf mesmers.
Upscaling system is ridiclulous for low level (lvl10-20) characters, the upscaling multiplier for a stat on lvl20 is ‘8’, so putting 10 points on critical strikes gives you +800 precision and +80% crit dmg. Max out them with armor/trinket stats, runes, nuggets and food, and you can get 120%crit dmg, 3k attack and ~50% crit chance on lvl20…. WTF?
True, i didn’t have the necessary stealth traits, but the main problem is , as you level up, your stats getting worse and worse, and the traits you get instead can’t compensate the loss of stats, so its unfair that a lvl10-20 character is much stronger than a lvl60.
Anet said something about fixing the condition upscaling with the next patch,
well they should as it is ridiculous atm, you can see it in any of the older videos. Even if the opponents were bad players, it is still not okay.
Pls Anet nerf or fix the upscaling in wvw.
How it is better than my lvl 80 thief with 4k attack, 120%+ crit damage and 50% crit chance, not to mention full traits, is beyond me though.
Oh not to mention that upscaling DOES NOT scale weapon damage, which means your direct damage will be terrible*. You need to go condition if you actually want to troll as an upscale.
*The attack indicator is misleading and does not represent your damage at all. It just sums up your power and weapon damage which makes no sense given the formula of damage:
Damage done = (Weapon Strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)
Ohh, you are talking about the new patch notes. Sorry, I was somehow under the impression that we were talking about the balance changes gw2 has received in general. Aye, perhaps these new changes make things better.
The balance isn’t perfect and there’s a lot of things wrong with what ArenaNet is doing, but they’re doing the best they can with the very limited resources available. The slow and small changes are frustrating to the players, but the game would be a volatile mess if they did sweeping balance patches every two weeks like everyone apparently wants.
But it already is a mess. A terrible kittening mess.
Despite all the complaining on the forums, it would be worse if they did what everyone wants them to do.
You should be happy that you have developers who actually care about PvP balance in the first place. Probably 70%+ of the balance changes in this game were directly because of PvP.
It doesn’t matter a flying kitten that they care if they are incompetent. The balance changes still sucked. Sucked hard.
In what way do “they suck” if they addressed the majority of issues in the game?
To show that they suck, I do not need to tell in what way exactly they suck. I can just observe consequences: pvp is dead, and almost all people I know (myself included) think that the pvp is not enjoyable atm.
The balance isn’t perfect and there’s a lot of things wrong with what ArenaNet is doing, but they’re doing the best they can with the very limited resources available. The slow and small changes are frustrating to the players, but the game would be a volatile mess if they did sweeping balance patches every two weeks like everyone apparently wants.
But it already is a mess. A terrible kittening mess.
Despite all the complaining on the forums, it would be worse if they did what everyone wants them to do.
You should be happy that you have developers who actually care about PvP balance in the first place. Probably 70%+ of the balance changes in this game were directly because of PvP.
It doesn’t matter a flying kitten that they care if they are incompetent. The balance changes sucked and so the game is bad, and thus I am not happy.
There’s nothing random about selecting “join ranked match”. And in fact, one could, and probably should, infer that a “ranked match” means you are supposed to “give a jack kitten”
But what if I still just don’t? I mean, I do not. At least not until they add some good reason to win.
Then the veteran needs to adapt their play style to account for this new climate where someone can beat them if they don’t plan to counter it. If the new stuff is a hard counter, then that begs that response even further..
If there isn’t an easy or conclusive counter to something, then why aren’t these “skilled” and “intelligent” and “great” players taking advantage of it?
They are, but sometimes these things are so powerful that it no longer matters how good you were in the game. Eg, in my cycling example, it would be all the same how good cycler you were: your athelic strength would no longer be relevant when people would just use motors. A random fat nerd could beat the world champion after that change.
Sometimes these changes can also trivialise the game so much that its no longer possible to separate a pro and a good player. E.g. spirit ranger. there are no “pro spirit rangers”, just “good enough spirit rangers”. This is because the spec is so easy and simple that after a given point, you can no longer improve your gameplay. I mean, you can, but not so much that it’d hold any meaning or be noticeable.
Yes, i didn’t say anythings about winning, thank you for realising that you were wrong.
Its hard to figure out why you’re even posting on the PvP forum if you don’t play it lol.
I haven’t logged in the game in more than a month.
Did i miss something?
And even if i did, i’m here to show you the way how to become better. We already came to the conclusion that winning isn’t all what players need, and sometimes, they don’t need it at all, but still, they are winning. If you’re playing to win, it does not increase your chances to win against that players. We also concluded, that there is no point of winning in computer games at all. So, whats the point? Fun, of course. And we all agreed, that fun is subjective. For some people fun is just getting text “you win” in the middle of their screen , and some people want to actually play the game the way they want, and it doesn’t connect to their winrate. So, we concluded that this thread is pointless.
If you ask me, if you are joining a competitive game mode you are entering into an unspoken contract that you will play to the best of your abilities and attempt to win. If you choose to play a crappy, ineffective build because you find it “fun” and your team loses as a result, you screwed them over.
One players’ fun doesn’t make it OK to ruin the enjoyment for, in this case, four other players fun. You could even say you could be ruining the fun for up to 9 people because many do not enjoy a steamroll.
When you enter into any sort of team environment you work for the success of that team. This means you give up a bit of individuality, but if you want a team to succeed it’s needed. There’s a lot of enjoyment to be had still working as a team though.
My point is, those who want to only have fun and run silly builds should stick to duel servers or hotjoin, game modes that are basically TDM and so casual that you aren’t screwing other over by running what you want because nobody else is taking things seriously. This applies to any game, not just GW2.
But what if I don’t give a jack kitten about my team and just want to troll with my burst thief? Just because the game random number generator mixed me into same team with you, does not mean that I am your friend.
If you want to play with a team you can rely, then play teamq. Otherwise, welcome to the internets.
The balance isn’t perfect and there’s a lot of things wrong with what ArenaNet is doing, but they’re doing the best they can with the very limited resources available. The slow and small changes are frustrating to the players, but the game would be a volatile mess if they did sweeping balance patches every two weeks like everyone apparently wants.
But it already is a mess. A terrible kittening mess.
The essence of the discussion should be here: Why are the materials somehow differend from the gold they make during playing “normally”?
They aren’t, just the person’s perspective on their value is.
Since the intent is to use them, to people that gather their own mats during what they consider enjoyable play, materials cost less than what they would need to purchase the same quantity on the TP. Its cheaper to grab the tool and gather as you play (where you’re also earning money through drops and in straight coin, recouping that tool cost) than it is to just buy it off the TP.
Does it change what they could make from the TP is they chose to sell them? No. Does it change how much it would cost if they bought the armor instead of crafting it? No. If what they wanted was even for sale.
But the real question is: do they care? Again no, because their perspective is that it was just simpler, cheaper, easier to grab the mats as they played and make it themself.
It’s ok that you don’t understand, you’re not alone in that. What and how people view the value of items depends a lot on personal perspective.
Well I don’t know what to say. I tried to use rational reasoning to show that materials are really just money, but you suggest that all that matters is the person’s perspective of value, even if that perspective is completly biased in the rational sense? Hm, you may be right, it feels better and more fun to craft the item using the materials you gathered yourself and so on*. Thus, you get more enjoyment out of the game if you gather the materials yourself and so it makes sense to do so. I quess it’s really just a matter of perspective after all.
Though, it still doesn’t really justify the claim “I gathered the mats so it was free” now that I think of it :/.
It is all perspective. For some people, gathering the mats during their normal play equates to ‘free’ because they only thing they are ‘spending’ to obtain them is the cost for the tools. They don’t even consider the time because they are just playing normally. For some people, farming runs are considered ‘normal’ play for them, because that’s what they like to do.
The essence of the discussion should be here: Why are the materials somehow differend from the gold they make during playing “normally”?
Many people don’t assign a cost to doing something they enjoy, which is why ‘free’ is a perspective. Is it an actuality? No. Absolutely nothing in life is free, if you approach it with the view you are using. Even the time you use to play the game is not free. Time is money, you are wasting money. Why? Because you are enjoying the time you play the game, as such you don’t bother thinking about the fact that you could instead by using that time for something more productive… such as a potentially money making hobby, a second job, time with the family, cleaning your house, working in your yard, etc.
I am not thinking it in such a compliacted way. My logic is very simple: observation 1. There are differend types of “points” in the game. (materials, gold) observation 2. These points can be traded between each other with no effort and with only mariginal loss in total quantity. (taxes) conclusion. These points are all really just the same thing.
Time is money, you are wasting money.
Not really that relevant to the discussion, but note that time in fact is not money. Time may almost always be exchanged into money, but you can buy only so much time with money.
I just gather whatever I can get from whatever nodes I happen to pass whilst doing other things. So the time and effort required for each one is only a few seconds to run a short distance out of my way and/or pause what I was doing (and I might well be standing around waiting for an NPC to catch up, or the next wave of enemies or whatever anyway).
Compared to the time I might spend earning gold to buy those mats that’s so close to nothing as makes no difference.
It’s not relevant how easily you can gather the materials. What matters is that they can be effortlessly and directly traded into money and the other way around (+- taxes, but they are mariginal enough). As long as this is true, there is no difference between using money and materials.
I’m going to agree with those that say it’s all perspective:
Some people gather the mats and neither sell them nor use them, they simple horde them because they can.
Some people intentionally gather everything, and salvage everything, wracking up stacks of materials to stash away in their guild vaults so guildies have the materials available if they run short, thus they don’t need to waste gold buying them.
Some people gather them, and merch them to normal merchants, because they could care less about the TP.
For some, the game isn’t all about ‘potential profit.’ At which point, these things (to them) are ‘free.’ They only ‘cost’ to gathering them is time, which they are spending playing anyway, and the gathering tools costs, which are easily recouped after a few kills.
None of this is relevant. It doesn’t matter if you play the game casually or not, the point is that burning materials is equivalent to burning money. It is not a matter of perspective at all.
If materials are equivalent to money and burning money to achieve something is called buying, then burning materials to achieve something may also be called buying.
In this game, every single item that you can sell is just money in another form. When you loot a vial of powerful blood, you loot 28silvers. When you consume a vial of powerful blood, you consume 28silvers. Sometimes it’s still useful to keep gathered materials for crafting as that can save you the 15% tax ratio.
“I gathered the mats so it was free” is nothing but a cognitive bias.
Is this a joke? Ranger is one of the most represented and powerful pvp classes out there. Check your facts, last high end tournament had way more rangers than thieves.
In WvW d/p perma stealth with 20k+ burst is indeed too powerful for trolling, but its still not even close to what warriors can be.
GW2 is designed around this idea. It is a core concept – if you’re fast and skilled you can negate damage where another player might have to bring toughness or vitality. That’s what makes GW2 skill based – the better you are the faster you can finish content.
This cannot be the case since it is both easier and faster to finish a dungeon in full zerker party. This is mainly because bosses are simply immune to every other trick but raw damage, and also because they have no AI to outplay
.
Personally I don’t even play full zerker anymore though. I still prefer glass builds, but I now run some confusion / crit dmg mix on my mesmer. It’s more fun.
ps. My WvW Warrior is full glass, 135%+ crit dmg, easily 4k+ attack. Hes rifle f1 makes even the tankiest pvt coward beg for nerfs. Unless if they are necro. Then they can just do /laugh and /dance in my 100b combo afterwards
Has anyone in this thread read the book, Playing to Win: Becoming the Champion by David Sirlin? If not you should read that book, and rethink how ridiculous you sound right now. Also a good book is The Art of Learning: An Inner Journey to Optimal Performance by Josh Waitzkin.
Are simple, effective build bad for a game? Hell no. Newer players need those builds to be effective and in solo queue nobody is talking so simple, effective, and versatile builds are more effective.
The thing is, it’s fine if some simpler builds are effective. But currently they are so good that even if you play a more complex build very well, you can still be easily outshined by a rookie, let alone slightly better player who just facerolls with his cookie cutter build. The problem is that this dumbs down the gameplay.
Here is a simple (even if little corny) analogue:
A good rookie build is like training wheels. They help the child to compete with kids who have already learnt how to cycle, but someone who is already good doesn’t find them very useful. The rookie builds of Guild Wars 2 however, are like training wheels with built-in motors.
Indeed, both the beginner and the veteran cyclers would perform better with such motorized training wheels. See how introduction of such equiment would make cycling a shallower sport: nobody would actually have to learn how to ride a bicycle.
Just out of curiosity why is that people assume complex builds are supposed to be better than simple ones?
It’s not good for the game if a simple build is also most effective. This is because almost everyone will then of course use that build and so the gameplay loses depth. Spirit Ranger is a good example.
Winning in this game means killing someone you set out to kill. Having your team win a match means next to nothing when the devs cant even get two teams of similar mmr to face each other.
Yep. Most soloq matches are lost / won before they even start.
I can’t fault players for taking the simplistic and yet utterly imbalanced pos system Anet has put out and finding the most efficient, least skill based way to play it. However I can definitely fault those players for being simple enough to find that brain-dead gameplay entertaining. This is the community Anet has built by catering this game to morons who just want BOOM HEADSHOT satisfaction and can’t be bothered to learn an in-depth combat system that rewards skilled play over faceroll idiocy.
If a build’s in-depth creative and practical strategy lets you win over the majority of your opponents and holds up vs. strong players, great!
Can’t even be majorty here, since if a build is very strong aka op, most of your opponents will be using the exact same build. Condition Bunkers and Stun warriors, you have them everywhere.
No thank you. People play games because they enjoy the process, not to just win.
I, for example, enjoy playing with skilled players, even if I lose. I also don’t like playing easy builds. It’s just boring. I do not talk about builds which are both easy and effective. But when builds like that exist, it’s very, very bad for game. It’s very depressing to play against people which are using such builds, just because they can win with minimum efforts. Actually, i won most of that fights, but even when people just facerolled onto their keyboards pressing something like 1234567890 that was pretty hurt. It’s depressing. Since those builds became popular, I couldn’t enjoy playing this game anymore. And I’m sure I’m not alone.
If the only thing you need is winning, then you need to grow up.
Agreed with this.
Well then it’s more likely that you will lose than you win timespace
And that book would make good TP for me
/shrug
Also luck is entirely nonexistent. Nobody who wins in a constructed reality does so by divine intervention or random chance….
This makes no sense given the context of my second post. I don’t think it’s possible to have a rational discussion with you.
Also, I guess I could add that aesthetics and cool pixels make a difference in how much you would enjoy a competitive game. I didn’t think I had to elaborate that.
It’s not aesthetics. It’s the rules. If the rules are bad (eg. bad balance, too simple, relies too much on luck, boring point cap!, etc.), then the game is not interesting.
Would anyone want to read a book about someone who loses a bunch of games and complains about it, or have fun reading it?
A realistic, rough story about a loser would probably sell better than a corny fairytale about superstar and sunshine, aye.
All that matters, and all that ever will matter in a competitive game is who wins and who loses.
Why don’t we all just play tic tac toe then?
Nobody ever wins at TicTacToe. Always ends up in a draw.
OK. Then we could play rock paper scissors.
If you want to go ahead who cares? lol
I didn’t believe I’d have to elborate. In your post you seem to suggest that it doesn’t matter if the game is fun, balanced or interesting. All that matters is that who wins. But if that’s true, then why even bother with gw2 when you could just play a competitive game of rps?
Class balance is not your problem. It is Arenanet’s problem. They have to decide what is good or bad for the game and all they are ever going to do is take your opinions into whatever degree of consideration they feel is appropriate. You can complain all you want about stunlock warriors, condispam necros, afk2win rangers, and every other “OP” crap under the sun.
It doesn’t matter.
But of course it matters. The game is not interesting or fun if it’s not balanced.
Do realise that lots of people play this game because they want to have fun. Relatively complex, balanced fights are fun. Winning is fun. But winning with cheese spec is only as fun as trolling, in my opinion anyway.
As a ranger player, I’ve been lately thinking 1 thing. As a ranger, you have to keep distance between your opponent and kite them. Especially with these silly stun warriors, you can’t be near them without getting perma stunned (I’m spirit ranger so no stun breaks). This makes point defending unfair and biased towards these melee players.
However, I realised a fair way to introduce a counter play against these overpopular melee spammers: allow my pets to still contest the node when defending.
^^This Peters only really cares about SPVP or they would have been fixed ages ago.
He is just desperately trying to rise the flopped esports. I can see the so called “concord phenomenon” happening here. At one point the owners of the Concord airplane were well aware that they are only losing money with their project. However, instead of scrapping the project, they kept going because “so many resources were already used on the project.”. Same thing is going on here: anet can’t let the esports crap go even if it’s obvious it will never work without drastical changes.
Here’s something you have to remember, Anet didn’t release Factions until 2 years after Prophecies and it took them 1 year to release the Stone Summit patch. It wasn’t until after the success of the Stone Summit patch that hey decided to finish up Factions for release. When they announce Factions they also announced that they’d be doing a Standalone every 6 months for GW. We ended up getting Nightfall 6 months after Factions and EotN a year after. Then Anet announced GW2 and here we are.
Umm what?
Factions was released exactly one year after Prophecies. Guild Wars: Prophecies was released on April 28th, of 2005. While Guild Wars: Factions was released on April 28th, of 2006. The Stone Summit (or Sorrow’s Furnace) was released on September 7th, of 2005. Six months after Guild Wars’ initial release.
And Factions wasn’t even an expansion. It was an entirely new Campaign like Prophecies. Basically a whole new game. Released within a year.
And Guild Wars 2 had more content at launch than Factions and Prophecies put together.
Everyone knows the game launched too early. They spent the first year getting it to where it is now, which is playable. This project is so much bigger and more ambitious than Guild Wars 1, you might as well not try to compare.
50 devs vs 300. 25 missions in Prophecies and 13 missions in Factions compared to how many personal stories?
How many starting zones in the two games.
Hell people finished Factions in 1 week and complained there was nothing to do. One week!
And how much copy paste content, empty zones that lack purpose, living story quests that you never do. I stopped at lvl 40 or 50 because after that the game feels like resident evil. You also have no dynamic dialog, which really devours the rpg value of the personal story. It doesn’t feel very personal.
Oh and how many pvp modes*? And how much grindy, trivial but time gated “carrot on a stick” noncontent?
It’s a good game but I feel that if certain bad ideas would have been scrapped, the game would be a lot more enjoyable.
*Propechies + factions = (ta / ra), gvg, ha + fa + ab + jq which is 6. Gw2 has 2 modes.
3 words : ^^ Ranger simply sucks ^^
I’ m a ranger rank 292 WvW and been playing ranger since Beta. Thurst me I know what I’ m talking about.
Spent tons of gold on runes, gear, sigils…and no way..this class is simply broken.
How can a thief hit me for 5k despite me having 3600 armor?^
Seriously Arenanet instead of making ranger stronger, nerfed our pets and our spirits. Unfortunatly ranger is just an easy kill for everyone.
Who denies it, It’ s just becouse you don t want ranger to become stronger becouse you love ^^easy kills ^^
There is no hope for this class. Arenanet simply hates rangers.
That’ s all
EDIT: puts on tinfoil hat I have a suspicion that the extra points for stomping were added to the bloodlust buff in combination with the slew of new gemshop finishers in an attempt to combat the whole “WvW doesn’t make us any money” issue.
Tinfoil hat? That is painfully obvious…
What I meant was that it was an (albeit failed) attempt at subtlety on their part to hide the motivation for cool finishers inside a new game mechanic most of didn’t really want. I honestly think they would have been much more successful if they had just come right out and said “look, we’re adding cool finishing moves to the shop, if enough of you buy them to support the development, we’ll add GvG.”
EDIT: puts on tinfoil hat I have a suspicion that the extra points for stomping were added to the bloodlust buff in combination with the slew of new gemshop finishers in an attempt to combat the whole “WvW doesn’t make us any money” issue.
No need to get offended. There is literally no way that clicking an ability will improve your performance over having it hot-keyed. The simple truth is that you will always activate an ability faster by key press, so there is really no reason to argue against it.
Yea but it is only so much faster. Some people are just very used to clicking and so prefer it even if it’s not so ideal. I play flight simulators with clickable kittenpit elements. Because I’m lazy when it comes to memorising keyboard bindings and my HOTAS has space for only so many, I often find myself manuevering with left hand and attempting to click the virtual switch using the mouse. Ankward, but you get used to it and gw2 clicking doesn’t feel that difficult afterwards. I of course still have have stun breaks, interrupts and other such skills binded.
Blinding powder will only save you from the last hs, I think. The basilisk lands on mug, and the c&d immeditately after that So you can now cast blinding powder to blind the enemy thief, and the next bs he uses will miss. But he should have enough time for another bs before the venom stun wears off. Unless if blinding powder removes stone? (Would be a suprise to me, never noticed it to and I almost always carry blinding powder.)
Even then, I think warriors with stuns, lots of stability and berserker stance could be a problem. Though I quess thats just another op setup that needs a nerf.
Anyhow, I think I’ll give the build a go. Just bothers me that they might nerf those runes in the next balance patch, and they are quite expensive.
It’s not a thief related problem and i didn’t state that. I think conditions should be reworked for everyone, obviously.
Lemongrass can be countered by veggie pizza…
And of course we have a second weaponset to counter for example d/p thieves…
They will still have too much regen. Without the +50% given by the food, the sneak attack bleeds simply aren’t enough to bring down a regen warrior. Perhaps if he just stays there and fights, you might eventually manage to down him, but in practice he has all day to just move away from you.
You will never win against d/p thief because you can’t apply enough pressure before they can stealth and remove your conditions. In fact, even p/d vs. p/d is often endless simply due to shadow refuge.
