Guild Wars 2

jingkangtan.6752:

elixir gun is actually a garbage dps kit
you only use 4 then you swap out
the other skills are godly utility skills tho

Traited elixir gun is brutal in WvW on a condition builds

TheBandicoot.5294:

Eviscerate needs to be toned down, tbh its the overall damage which is too much for a warrior´s tankyness and sustain. Or, what i also already said, just make warriors slow/reduce their mobility.

Thats what really bothers me in GW2, its the only mmorpg where kiting classes/builds cant kite. We dont need frostmage WoW level of dominating kiting but something is wrong if a warrior can sit 90% of the time on my face even if I slot every kiting skill on a ele, engi or ranger

Kuju.2153:

You should be in a group with a guard to get another ~5 seconds on stability on top of your own 5 seconds.

Thats one of the biggest problems, usually if people want to fill their frontline group slots they dont want an engineer.

Right now I dont play pure frontline because of that, I usually run with the frontline but rocketboot through the enemy zerg to get to their backline, drop supply crate and burn everything with my flamethrower. It works rather well because the FT autoattack does enough damage to roast all those zerker necros/eles quite fast.

Eliteseraph.4970:

How well does a condition engi hold up under return fire? I’ve been reading up on them and supposedly engis have problems with condition removal on themselves?

Condi removal is the achilles heel of the class. Most builds outside of elixir ones have a problem with high condi preassure. But its still managable because you have so many active defenses in most builds. In WvW roaming you will usually encounter 3 condi specs in 1v1 situations:

P/D thieves:
They spam condis – stealth – repeat, basicaly waiting for you to bleed out. One of the cheesiest spec in the whole game right now but as engi you can handle them quite well even with the condi pressure. You need to play some 1v1 against them to learn how they work. As with all thieves dont expect them to die to you because they can always bail out and run, grenades and bombs are a godsend against that class. Unlimited AoE spam is a thiefs worst nightmare.

PU mesmer:
PU mesmer are the kings of 1v1 in WvW right now and basicaly make you kill yourself with conditions. Its one of the hardest 1v1 enemy for almost any class/spec in the whole game and really really hard to kill (if they know what they do). On the bright side they are slow as kitten and need to waste their rune slots with traveler runes or else they would walk across the battlefield. You can always walk away from them and dont be ashamed to do so because they are really cheesy. Most classes have to do it so its not a engi problem. They are useless in tPvP, thats why the whine about them is rather small.

Condi Necros:
Now thats really a problem for an engi because that class basicaly hardcounters engineers. If the necro is pure condition specced and you are not a power build that can nuke him down fast dont bother its a uphill battle at its worst. They are a rare sight in WvW roaming and they have zero chance to catch up to you if you run.

That sounded depressing, right? But keep in mind that an engi can deal with more or less any other class/spec in a 1v1 situations and the first two specs are the kings of cheese in 1v1 and most builds on any class strugle against them.

EDIT:
Ok well I realized that I more or less advertised the thief and mesmer spec but keep in mind those specs rely on gimmicks and balance will change. Enigs are the healthiest roaming class, means the class is good at it no matter which spec you choose. The mesmer spec is also not a real roamer its basicaly a slow walking 1v1 spec that cant do anything else.

Ynna.8769:

1) This power is inconsequential. WvW battles aren’t turned because a Guardian survives 4 seconds more than another class. It is rather useful if you’re tackling smaller objectives with a smaller group, guerrilla style, but WvW revolves around large group “battles” (my experience with WvW hasn’t involved battles, but rather “who has the biggest zerg”) in which your individual skills and abilities hardly matter. Everyone is useful in WvW, this isn’t special to Guardians.

That guardian that survives 4 seconds longer blocks with walls, captures enemy in his circle, spams condi cleans on his group and gives them stability so he really makes a difference. Especially the stability is so important.

tbh celestial gear is kinda OP on every class that uses all the stats like some warrior builds, engis and eles. Eles would be more or less out of the meta beside fresh air without that type of gear.

Michaeas Magister.1589:

And I will never agree with ArenaNet’s stance that having three permanent signets as my class mechanic justifies being the most easily kited profession that is designed to be a melee class, but without the health to actually survive very long in the front lines. Especially when Rangers, Engineers, Mesmers and Necromancers all get more health while safely staying at range.

Frontline? Join WvW and compare how long you survive in the frontline as all those classes compared to a guardian. Guardians have the best defense in the whole game, no other class can endure so much damage like a guardian. Ive seen more than enough solo guardians get swarmed by a whole zerg and still survive for very long time compared to the situation they are in. Please dont whine about the survivability of guardians. Thats like whining about thieves not having enough options to stealth…

If he talks about WvW, than condition necros cant kill anything 1v1 because everyone can just walk away.

I like it but bleed stacking builds are already powerfull in PvP, so your change would buff them even more.

If you want an easy start as engineer play a 3kit condi build that focuses on conditions. Especially one that uses the elixir gun as its “main” weapon. You can spam a ton of conditions at 1200 range with it if you trait it. This thing is seriously borderline OP in WvW because with no place to hide a lot of builds cant handle the permanent preasure of the elixir gun autoattack.

Grimreaper.5370:

Axe is fine IMO, if you’re getting hit for 12k with an eviscerate well then you’re paying the price for being glass.

What DOES need some re-work though is hammer stun chains, and killshot. Have you seen multiple glass warriors using killshot together? Hory sheet that stuff is bananas

I got hit for 10k with 2900 armor. So glass equals not maxing to 3500 armor…

Every time I 1v1 a warrior on my engi I feel insulted by how much a warrior can archive with so little effort.

I just dont get the developers reason behind the flamethrower kit, its obviously a melee weapon and juggernaut implys that they aim for a tanky approach because you get your damage with might stacks of the trait and sigil of strength that works so well with the multihit autoattack. The might stacking also forces you to use flamethrower as your “main” weapon which means you are in melee most of the time.

So basicaly a flamethrower build should be able to fight a warrior close and personal but you cant the warrior will outdamage, outheal, outtank and if he runs hammer might even out-cc you.

You cant change it easily because giving the engi more passive defense would buff other specs too. Dunno some nice utility like giving juggernaut traited flame thrower autoattack a chance to strip boons would make it possible to go toe to toe with a guardian / warrior.

Bhawb.7408:

GWEN = 4 professions + veilbot = 5. Unless the definition of trinity has been changed that’s not 3 professions.

As said necro is only a addition that functions if the rest babysits him and mesmer is just a 2 spell bot.

Yeah its sad like when I created an engineer almost 2 years ago I expected them to be excellent at sieging and long range large scale combat. It was a bit misleading.

Bhawb.7408:

That isn’t at all true but if you want to believe it feel free. 7/8 professions have a place in PvE groups, and you have GWEN + thieves for roaming and mesmers for veilbots in WvW. Its not a perfect 8/8 for every mode for sure, but its much more than 3.

Are you trying to disproof my statement with GWEN? Because GWEN is basicaly what I said…

GWEN is about warriors and guardians frontline zerging because of their synergy and skills. Eles are their to support and nuking. Necros are optional for that and work only if they are in a group that gives them stability. Mesmers are just a veil/port bot, who wants to play that? Thieves are only good for roaming and a ele or warrior can do the same + zerging with just a weapon switch.

Isnt it sad that you only REALY need Warrior, Elementalist and Guardian in 2 of the 3 modes of the game. All other classes are suboptimal, gimmick utility (mesmer) or just plain inferior. You would not notice any difference in both modes if you would remove the other 5 classes. (Well yes WvW would lack thieves that swarm it like mosquitos but in the grand scheme of things of zerg fighting they are irrelevant.)

Deniara Devious.3948:

I know my post is going to be flamed and people will tell me how thieves suck in large scale combat. For some reason almost every single zerg vs zerg fight in WvWvW has more than one thief, usually eating the flanks. Yes, I have witnessed even 5 thieves together ambushing the rear (this was an extreme case though). In Tpvp the top teams seem to be all using these three professions: guardian, warrior and thief. The other 5 professions are optional and vary per team.

Their are so many thieves in WvW because its a easy way to win cheesy 1v1’s against most people. Thats the only reason they flood WvW and yes they are useless against a coordinated zerg with an average pub commander. I play condi gren spam engi in WvW and everytime I see a thief sneaking at us in the backline he gets easily nuked down by us in the blink of an eye. I play on kodash for almost 2 years and I have yet to see a thief successfully killing the backline.

Edit: The top teams are using Warrior, Guardian and Ele with one mesmer for utility. Some are speciallizing in condi bombing and running necros instead of eles with one or two suport water field eles in the mix. Saying that thief are important and eles are “optional” for zerg fighting will make any decent WvW guild laugh. You only run a thief in a guild setup if you want a deticated scout.

Michaeas Magister.1589:

style.6173:

Engis have become the easiest class to play. That says a lot given that hambows are still around.

This…

I find it noteworthy that when the game first released, Engineer and Mesmer were the two lowest professions played numerically. Now, they are everywhere, like rabbits only worse as rabbits are at least cute and fluffy.

Thanks.

Go play a 3kit engi, doesnt matter if condi or power and compare the amount of effort you have to put into it to win fights compared to something like a warrior, thief, necro, ranger or guardian.

Maugetarr.6823:

Stealth attacks however are a class mechanic as no other class gets a rollover while in stealth. While Stealth itself isn’t a class mechanic, other class mechanics and traits are woven into it.

Yes its part of the class concept but it is not exclusive, on my mesmer 1v1 roaming spec Im usually in stealth half of the fight and can reset with it when I want, like a thief. You can also build evade/dodge centred thieves too. So its not the only approach you can take to the class.

Platanos.8107:

That is fighting inside the capture point? I suppose it is easy enough to trait signet of malice and spam 2 while in the capture point, but other than that, I think it’s difficult to camp the point and still stay alive.

Yeah I want to see how he survives fighting a decent turret engi INSIDE the point, thats like asking to get bend over.

I tried tons of setups from Mishva’s Commander Build to pure bunker builds but they all fail in comparsion to a warrior or guardian. I know we are a medium armor class but the flamethrower screams walking fortress of doom.

If you try to kill a bunker spec on point alone you do what he wants you to do. The downside of a bunker spec is that the rest of the team has to fight 4v5 and because you are fighting him you turned it into a 4v4.

I bet they are still scared from the beta where necros could endure the spam of a small zerg and walk away.

spoj.9672:

Basically PvE balance and tPvP balance pretty much cover everything in WvW. So there is no point focusing on a 3rd gametype to balance separately. It unnecessarily complicates things.

No because both modes dont consider stuff like how well does a class scale if you bring more of them. Like warriors are scale way to good with themself. PvE or PvP will not balance a 10+ warrior melee train because both modes never have to deal with such a situation.

TheRyftLord.5820:

Also consider that PvP isn’t the most important aspect of this game. Alot of people play primarily for the open world content, and some never even touch PvP or WvW. How fair would this be to the PvE thief players that enjoy using stealth for beating the life outta things in dungeons or the open world content ? They’d suddenly find themselves punished for using the stealth mechanic in the way that Warriors use their adrenaline, or Guardian uses their virtues, as they were intended within the game mechanics.

We’ve all had our gripes about other classes being OP, what makes these arguments any different from people calling Warrior OP? Because you can see him coming?

Stealth is not a thief class mechanic, initative and dual wield skills are.

The direction this thread is heading is horrible for the game balance. Every class is different and that is a good thing because it adds variety. I am playing mostly engi right now and all I know is if I interrupt a costly skill of a thief in a 1v1 fight I will most likley win because heres the thing. Thief is a calculating class, like you really need to calculate in your head how much ini you can spend on spamming burst bevor you go in or else you get caught with your pants down. Now if I interrupt one single skill I can bring the thief below the ini threshold that he saved for escaping OR he is forced to stop attacking and use his last ini to get out of the fight.

The whole argument that class mechanics of thieves are OP is something I agree on BUT it should be like that because the class mechanics of all classes are OP. Thats the way it should be because thats the reason you want to play class x or y. Like I said I play engi right now and I could tell you at least 5 reasons why the engi class mechanics are completly OP too. If a class or a specific build is way better than the rest than you need to balance the skills/traits that make the spec so good and not the class mechanics because thats what makes the class unique.

Clownmug.8357:

If they need to see how bad “squishy melee” is they should play elementalist. Less armor than thief, no stealth, fewer blinds and fewer evades. Oh, and their class mechanic doesn’t get an exemption when dealing with chill.

Last time I checked meta celestial D/D eles were really hard to kill and dealt a ton of damage on top of it.

Platanos.8107:

I’ve lurked on the forums a long time and there is more QQ about S/D evade spam (no counters to evade) than D/P. So if anet is going to nerf something because thief is OP, it’s going to be S/D first, not D/P.

We are talking about WvW in this tread and in that mode S/D evade spam thieves arent that dangerous because you usuall fight in an open field. That means even after spamming your evades and dodges you are usually still in range of most ranged classes and eat some autoattacks. For example im roaming a bit with my engi right now in WvW and a fight against a S/D thieve goes like that. He trys to burst me, I bunker through or dodge and than he usually spams his evades to dodge the incoming counterattack. The difference is that after that typical opening of a S/D thief he is still in range of my e-gun and eats 5-10 bleed/fire/torment stacks bevor he can disappear. The lack of any cover or elevation makes it really hard for a S/D thief in WvW to win fights against specs with good range especially if they are full condi specced.

TheDevice.2751:

Mayama.1854:

8-12 cd on each weapon skill? Did you ever play one? and they cant do that all in one spec…

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQFAUlUUpPr1XxELseRSbBFqYAyMMCRlxPvgAkUA-TpgTQA5yAg9HAA

sry

No one plays that… and you completly ignore your wrong statement that you can get a 12cd on each weapon skill. You even post it with cleric amulett and vampiric runes, things that no one uses. Its some squishy VERY WEIRD power build that is not meta at all in sPvP. No speedy kits etc… very strange trait selection no engi would use, ever. Also stealth and stability is not something you can spam with that build. Please play a class for some month bevor you post some weird kitten build to proof your point.

You seem to spread alot of engi hate in every thread you post because of some unexplained personal problem against the class.

Carighan.6758:

alot of text

Well engi/necro have their zerg niche too. Ive seen some guilds on my server run full condition zergs and necro/engis are very good at spamming it at the enemy zerg.

TyPin.9860:

Well, you have a spot for 2-3 Mesmers

Its thieves too, in the grand scheme of things more than, lets say, 5 mesmers and thieves on a map make you waste zerg/group potential.

TheDevice.2751:

Necro has no skill cap whatsoever. Engis have like 5 weapons they can pull out of their kitten with like 8-12 second max cdr on each of their weapon skills. They can do so much. Stealth? Np. Load the floor with a million bombs after a 4 second immobilize on enemy? Np. Nades? Sure why the hell not. Invulnerable? Yeah.. oh and invuln rez/stomp of course.

8-12 cd on each weapon skill? Did you ever play one? and they cant do that all in one spec…

Jayden Ennok.3687:

I compared dmg on aa, what does that have to do with all wep set combos?

Because a zerker engi is not centred around autoattacking enemies

Legendary kits should permanently put on your character not only visible when you equip the weapon. It always bothers me that my backpack blinks in and out of existance on my engi

J envy.5270

When I roam most times I don’t use grenades because no dumb roamer will stand there and take it, it’s very hard to hit from range for roaming or dueling, usually I’d go bomb kit,tool kit,rocket boots or elixir gun…..as it is harder for the enemy to read your movements, and easier to hit the enemy as well, personally grenades are good for Zerg just don’t die of retal or soloing camps, but outside that I prefer not to use them.

Yeah elixir gun for range and bombs for kitting close enemies because you usually throw your nades behind your feet anyway in a 1v1.

I dont get why people dont mention engis here, or put them so low. Gren engis do insane damage and constantly keep 25 vunerability stacks on the enemy while healing, buffing the group and clear condis. Looks like people only play 7 classes…

Sennis.9604:

Thats funny. I’ve beaten Turret Engineers on my thief. As well as Necros on my Engineer, it’s all about how you play. You just have to play smart, nothing is impossible.

Assuming all players play their class perfect necro > engi, engi > thief

Lert.6287:

I’m actually grateful that granades are neither autoattack or autotarget.

You sir must have an iron wrist

Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365:

If you’re oponent sits right ontop of you then you’d be better off using bombs or ’nades.

But one hit is always good for the weakness debuff

frans.8092:

If everyone gets a 6 second stacking Reveal then thieves will essentially go stealthless and without major changes to the class, stealthless thieves are not viable in Wvw.

So, Mr. Learn-to-adapt, show us a video of how your stealthless thief handles some decent Wvw players.

I cant resist to play devil’s advocate here. Wasn’t the major argument that endlessly resetting thieves that can always escape are fine because the game isnt balanced around WvW? Well now the wind has shifted.

Jayden Ennok.3687:

If they’d hit for only that, if the ranger is zerker, his lb aa crits anywhere from 2.5 to 4k on me and he doesn’t need might for that. Just to compare the numbers, I crit 2-3k on average with a rifle engi and HALF of engi’s dmg with a thief using pistol mainhand (both zerker builds).

You seem to forget that a magnet/prybar + all rifle skill combo of a zerker engi can down almost anything that isnt bunker

Does he really think he can solo any of the current meta pointholders as d/d SA?

If you are condi speced the auto attack works like a pest control spray against thieves in small scale WvW encounters. Autoattack every thief, well any zerker spec, at 1200 range 5-10 times to force them to back of or die.

I fought 2 eles in WvW today that constantly revived each other with mistform is that intended???

Came back after a looooong pause (almost a year) and still no autoattack on grenade kit1 ? Do they really want me to develop a carpal tunnel syndrome?

On the bright side, wow elexir gun is a nice dps tool, flamethrower gets buffed soon and turrets actually work in PvP!

Ele and Engi because their skillset makes them good in any situation that you encounter in WvW

TheBandicoot.5294:

Mayama, that is the offset for being glassy. if you are glassy, you literally always have to expect being nuked by other glassy builds. The problem in this game isnt the power creep, but the reason why it is needed. We have a Meta where even guardians (!) start to decide to go condition tank instead of bursty medi. Thus, power based specs need all the firepwower they can get, and ever since the change to %critdamage, exactly that was lacking. The change to air / fire sigils just brought back the firepower power specs had and should have maintained.

If anything, something must be done about the way conditions work. A condition tank will always do almost the same damage as a full berserker – while his damage has various effects instead of just taking life away, and completely ignores armor.

Only then nerfing the so called power creepwould be justified. But the amount of tanks and especially condition tanks is out of hand, thus power creep is nonexistant.

The whole bunker meta exists because of the thief. Its basicaly “all builds that a thief cant 1v1” are in the meta for most classes exept mesmer because of his portals. Others constantly post about eviscerate or engi combo doing more damage than a thief opener in defense of the thief. But they usually forget that the first thief burst is unavoidable. If you want to have a healthy meta with burst classes valiable for every spec you have to nerf the thief down to where the other professions are. Its just not good for the whole game that one class has the best mobility, best unavoidable burst and is on a completly different level defense wise.

The engi/ranger buff hits WvW thieves way harder than in PvP and thats a good thing because most of the thief hate comes from WvW. Fighting endlesly resetting thieves that live through millions of kitten ups and hit like a truck thanks to stacks and food makes people rage.

http://www.wolfineer.com/

His site is great for new engis to learn some builds

TheBandicoot.5294:

And a thief doing so is made out of thin glass, has blown most offensive CD´s, and the target is at lowest or medium tier of health. Thus its balanced. Those sigils brought power specs back into the lower area of viability because of those insane condition spamming tanks out there. lower power scaling for thieves would just make power thieves unplayable in the current meta. if anything, the nerfs to critical damage should be reverted. Then you can safely return air and fire sigils back to their former state.

Well yeah its the freaking power creep, alot of those sigils (condi too) need to get a rework. Its not only about thieves, a fresh air ele can almost global someone from 900 range for example.

Static.9841:

Mayama.1854:

I never had that bug in 2 years of playing gw2

Then you don’t PvP or Wv3 much. It happens constantly for myself and members of our pvp guild and has been a regular occurrence for as long as I can remember playing this game.

I almost only WvW and PvP on engi, mesmer and ele and honestly never had that bug.

Static.9841:

Mayama.1854:

Static.9841:

All classes get blind and evade, this isn’t a buff or a new addition. Other classes also have access to stealth.

Go to the gw2 wiki and count how many blinds or evades other classes have compared to the thief

Are you being wilfully dense or are you just trying to clutch at straws now because you just -have- to make some kind of comment despite having very little idea what the debate is even about.

The number of blinds and evades isn’t the question, some class builds have tons of vigor uptime, classes can trait for blinds, utilities, weapon skills, whatever. You are citing a standard debuff option that all classes have access to. An evade does nothing to your enemy except either put an attack on CD or just a whiffed auto attack that you’re not going to care about anyway. Blind stops your next attack from landing, hardly a problem unless you’re dumb enough to sit and chill in a blind field until it runs out.

S/D thief is the only thief that won’t have too much problem with this because they don’t rely on stealth as much as other builds.

Any thief not traited in acrobatics or signet of agility does not have all the dodge you are insisting they all have.

Now, a 6 second reveal on an instant cast from 2 classes now which will render an entire trait line useless for a minimum of 6 seconds and leaves a thief as a sitting duck depending on the situation. It’s hardly the same thing as an evade or blind is it. Please get educated before you respond next time.

If these forced reveal abilities are going to get used and seen commonplace, it’ll only encourage thieves to play s/d a lot more. Can’t wait to see all the qq posts about that considering people are already ignorantly crying about S/D.

Seriously, first evade is the most powerfull defense in the game because IT HAS NO COUNTER. Any other passive or active defense in this game can be countered, also wasting cooldowns into evades is a big thing. Second the reveal buff will only hit WvW thieves hard. In sPvP you can aways shortbow away or hide around a corner till it wears off. Its a good thing that it hit WvW thieves because it hardcounters all those builds that endlessly reset with stealth. About blinds, their are many builds that get quite hard countered by blind spam. I bet their wont be a increase in perma-thieves because a-net most likley reworks or nerfs all those damage proc sigils like air and fire. I almost forgot the whole hardcounter problem, its not a problem most specs/classes have hardcounters. If one of those engies with googles runs into a condi necro he will run or bent over, its not balanced around 1v1. If you face an engi that nullifies your stealth call for help, its a team game.

tl,dr those reveal buffs only really hit WvW thieves