Isn’t that contradicting in nature? You said you take OP words at face value then on the hand, agreed that he has no basis for that. Then you claim it as fact when he has no basis, ermm…..
Regardless, it is much convincing cause to call out to block dps meter using discrimination against newbies as reasoning than using stress and pressure as reasoning.
Also, dps meters that monitor other players’ dps without consent should be against the TOS as to do so, they have to access data that are not make visible to players. This is the same thing as accessing and displaying data of other players’ gears and traits. Arcdps should be violating the tos as “simulated dps” is done through data not normally displayed to players.
It’s not contradicting at all, I said to take the OPs words at face value regaurdess of basis. The only base line information you can use in this type of situation is what the OP said. It is a fact the OP stated that, it’s also a fact that you have no proof it is or isn’t true. However discussing if the OP is lying or not really doesn’t prove anything; or address the topic.
To clarify it’s not contradicting to say to take him at face value, and then say he has no basis for it. What basis do you have other then assumption that hes lieing? What good what that do the discussion about this topic.
He didn’t use pressure, he simply said he did not like the way the game was going, or being monitored by other players.
If that type of DPS meter (the ones that monitor others without consent) are against the rules still. Then the OP has a point in not wanting to be monitored.
Actually the OP clearly stated that he was a vet player, and does good dps numbers when playing. Hey simply doesn’t like the feeling of being monitored by other players when he plays. So point A is incorrect.
Point b. isn’t really an issue to me. Most people don’t actually mind others wanting to play their best, or wanting to play with like minded players. It’s when they act rudely based on that desire that people dislike.
As a mater of choices and actions, while it’s true no one is forcing anyone to use a meter or not. Someone using a meter may be forcing that meter onto others wishing to not use it.
Technically a vial of poison is a tool as well. Yet you are construing it to a negative action when infact it’s simply a tool as well. It’s in the use and the viewpoint.
Some tools do have negative connotations, for some people a DPS meter is one of them.
As I’ve said a few times, No the DPS meter by its self is not toxic. The actions of some BASED on the displayed numbers may be.
I was just unsure exactly what you meant by the comment. The comment is generally geared towards freedom, but I’m unsure as to how you are trying to relate it to the current discussion.
I wasn’t trying to make it sound like a straw man arguement as much as I was trying to respond to that part of your statement and not have a huge quote box.
Freedom of choice and action that is not applicable to all is not freedom of choice and action.
That’s pretty obvious, though unavoidable when one person use of freedom of choice and action impacts or impedes anothers.
@Offair: There are examples of the types of negative conversations or interactions that can be fueled by DPS meters all over games that have them. At the same time as others have said people find a reason to exclude regaurdless. Go to BNS dungeon lobby the FIRST thing you will see is people excluding others or acting toxic based on conceived stat requirements.
Of course the best way to “weed out” players is to monitor them. Some people just don’t like the idea of being monitored by their peers in a game.
Yes making a group that specifically states “no DPS meter” works, just as well as making a group that states “DPS meters monitored” would also work. As the DPS meter is a 3rd party tool, maybe including the heads up you are using it would be a nice idea.
Also everyone here is talking like DPS meters are only being used in raids. I don’t actually use one, but do they only work there?
Keep in mind that neither age of your account nor hours played have much to do with your odds of getting a precursor drop.
^^; While true, there is a correlation to time spent playing and precursor drop amount. At least meaningful playing… standing in LA or DR increase your hours but really wouldn’t help you find a pre. While spending time playing killing things looting does in theory give you more chances.
p.s.: even if I run a dps meter, that doesn’t display other DPS, i still never say nothing to other player of they like provide poor quickness, GotL or alacrity. Nor I say nothing if we fail because not enough DPS or because someone make mistake at doing mechanics.
If for me the group can get the kill, I try untill we do it or the group disband. If I think the group can’t do it, i Just leave without blame people
^—- and this is the feeling that I don’t like… If DPS meters can’t/won’t be used to negatively judge or exclude someone, why would anyone feel the need/desire to lie about it?
As I said even if you could opt out, it would just turn into a pressure game till it was turned on.
@mea. Some people actually enjoy the number game, pushing their totals as high as they can. It can be fun to see how well you can do, give it your absolute best, and/or problem solve the lack of DPS etc if the raid or group has trouble. It’s just an issue when those players force that style of “fun” or play on others that don’t feel that way. (the same is of course true the other way around as well)
Ideally with or without an opt in or out, groups/raids should just state if it will be a DPS monitored run or not.
And there have been people asking for DPS meters to be banned in this thread. I apologize if my comment made you think that I thought you were one of them.
You claimed that people being jerks was a negative of DPS meters. If they would be jerks even without the DPS meters, how is that a negative of the DPS meter?
^^; You quoted me and then talked about banning dps meters. I figured you ment that in response to what I said. Sorry if I misunderstood.
I claimed people COULD use dps meters that way; it’s a possibility. Just the same way as they COULD not use them that way; also a possibility.
A DPS meter gives a provable measurement of ones performance. Which would be something that could be used in a negative manner. Yes jerks will be jerks, however some things can make said jerk feel justified, or even someone who normaly isn’t a jerk feel some what justified in acting in a said manner.
Which is why people are asking for an opt out. It’s worth noting; in my opinion an opt out function wouldn’t really help with said jerk… They would just jump on the person for opting out xD
Right, I’m 100% good with responding to what others are saying. However your response should take into consideration the rest of the conversation. When you quote a user, that usually implies you are responding to the quoted post.
I have not been saying anything about banning dps meters or people using them. I’m simply saying they can be used for good or bad depending on the user.
I’m pretty sure someone stated there are a few that do actually give your squad/groups DPS opt in or not, they aren’t 100% accurate and can be a poor reflection, but I’m sure they will get better over time.
^^; so minority is pretty much just your opinion based on what you see/have seen.
Any way, what is the best opt in DPS meter floating around?
Ummm ok, I was simply answering what Zealex posted.
As far as the “minority” of players who would/do, do you have any hard factual numbers or just your opinion? As far as being kicked from a group or raid based on DPS, do you honestly believe no one has been kicked based on DPS?
This post isn’t about banning dps meters or people using them. It’s about giving people the option to opt into being displayed on them or not. A-net has given the green light on them so that ship has sailed, lets keep on topic
Pretty much what’s been mentioned… The other potential issue DPS meters can cause (in terms of play style) is an extreme tunnel vision or focus on DPS and only DPS. There is more going on then just DPS.
example:Take time to heal someone, take time to do mechanics right, or just keep rolling up the DPS because I’m being monitored! Someone else can rev/heal and take care of that other stuff.
It sounds like it. Why even bother making a thread out of it if it only happend once or twice? Some people will be kittens. Doesnt matter the tool they use.
When you talk or post something in person or online do you frequently say your point then say but that’s not always true? or not every time?
Something bothers someone they make a post about it stating their problem, it’s generally assumed you don’t need to say “not every time” constantly for people to be aware that just because it happened doesn’t mean you think it happens every time.
I have to wonder where people find those groups. I do raid every day (not every day with my static group) and have never seen such a behavior. Some people make it sound like every group is kicking someone for low DPS. Climax much.
I think most people posting are aware SOME groups kick for low perceived performance. At the same time SOME groups don’t kick for it. Just because a poster talks about kicking and how it’s happened etc doesn’t mean they are saying every group does etc. Exaggerate much?
The people arguing that dps meters are kicking people from groups and being elitist to people are the same people that believe spoons make people fat and that cars drive themselves drunk.
I don’t think any one is saying the DPS meter is doing the kicking… That would be creepy and sort of cool at the same time~ The meter could however be used to weigh in on the decision to kick someone (necissary or not). I have honestly never heard someone say spoons make people fat, I can’t imagine consuming enough spoons to warrant such a statement.
@nike, If that’s his decision it’s his choice to make. At the same time, the green light for DPS meters does show the general direction A-net is taking on this issue. If a consumer doesn’t like the direction the company is going. Not purchasing further services or products is a normal response.
Kerivek.5740, All I was pointing out is that DPS meters can lead to toxicity. They can also be used in positive methods. Like any other tool the morality of use is determined by the user and how they use it.
The whole DPS meters cause toxicity thing is a fallacy. Meters are a tool and blaming the tool is not the answer. Well before DPS meters were a thing people still got insulted and/or kicked from groups for a perceived lack of skill, poor performance, unoptimized builds and a number of other reasons. Toxic players exist with or without DPS meters.
So you disagree that DPS meters could cause a player that others deem not “good” enough to be treated poorly/excluded etc?
While it’s true the mentality and attitude associated with toxic behavior is not created by DPS meters, the meter can be used as a tool to promote it.
Yes a DPS meter also has positive uses, I simply disagree that DPS meters are 100% innocent and do not cause or help create a toxic environment.
IMO Absolutely Not.
I fail to see why anyone would take a perfectly good Twilight and turn it into a Melted Creamsicle. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder I guess, but I would rather have a Twilight.
I would totally make a legendary that required two legendaries if it was a giant creamsicle…
But over all yes. It’s worth it if you like the skin, I wouldn’t suggested it if you don’t or just want something for bragging points.
To answer your question no dps meters cannot be disabled on you but then calling dps meters as something that makes the game worst is a big mistake by itself
The meters can be used in good and bad ways. Saying DPS meters are something that makes the game only better or only worse is a big mistake.
They could be viewed as making aspects of the game better and worse.
On another note, whats the best DPS meter that shows DPS/damageincome/healingout/buff time etc? Mainly looking for something that shows all aspects of play not just DPS DPS DPS.
You see it as elitist, I see it as a helpful tool to see whether or not I’m pulling my own weight in a raid, not to judge others. I don’t see it as an elitist at all, not in the slightest. From my point of view has only done good for me and my friends.
So you or your friends have never used it to exclude or judge others that are not in your “group of friends” based on what numbers they are pulling?
In short, if you’re doing raids, why are you against a tool that shows DPS.
If you’re not doing raids, why do you care about the existence of DPS meters in the first place?
Are these DPS meters only being used in raids? If the answer is no, then that is why people care about being on them in raid or not.
The divide between pro and con DPS meters is allready apparent and it has been in the countless DPS meter threads that have been around from the start till now.
Adding another level of potential conflict seems counter productive to getting all parties involved to play nicely.
@anyone ~~ Where did A-net give the green light on dps meters? Did they give a specific list of ones that are OK and ones that arn’t or what is and what is not ok? All I remember seeing for sure was any thing that read the games memory was a nono.
Yes I agree, I’m not a big fan of other players “monitoring” others players for their idea of “acceptable” performance. In most open situations the interactions generated from a DPS meter tend to be negative. Pre-made group trash talking random pugs dps or performance (even if not to his face). The DPS meter when used simply as a tool is not elitists, however the most common uses for it do lean towards elitists.
However lets face it, if you could block the use of DPS meters on you… and actively used such a feature; you would get the same type of negative response. In fact if you do consistently high dps and had the ability to monitor turned off, it could cause more negative feelings then just letting them “monitor”.
I haven’t really been paying much attention to this topic, where did A-net give DPS meters the green light?
Allow us, for the size of the party, to be able to select professions and stat priorities from dropdowns. These can be represented in the tool by their icons, such as sword for power, profession icons for classes.
I like this idea, let people know quickly and easily what class and or role a group is looking for.
Exclusion Criteria If raiders only select those who have raided from day one, the community can only get smaller, as player stop and start to play.
I would suggest that the Looking for Group side of things facilitate players to add items they currently own in their bags or bank, to show as proof that they have completed specific content. This could be armor, weapons, legendary insights, boss drops, miniatures, skins, whatever they feel best builds their case and capability.
This part you lost me. It appears you state that it’s a good thing for new players to join the raids and not be excluded or the raid community just shrinks. Then the solution you offer is to show proof of “specific content” you have completed. Which sounds alot like showing raid drops, or cheevos… How does that help the community expand and welcome new players?
As far as “lots of time and farming” yes ascended does take more time then exotic; how ever be honest how long does exotic take…
well let see … are you making medium armor?
Got 1 Hardened Leather Section from doing an octovine. You need 3 to make one square and 10 squares to make one insignia and 6 insignias for a set. That is from around 15minutes of doing stuff. Assuming around 2 hours of play a day and the need to acquire the other parts. Maybe 2 months?
Umm is that an answer to when I said “how long does exotic take?”. I really doubt it takes anyone 2 months of 2 hours a day play time to get exotic armor (at least if they are trying to).
Yes Ascended might take a bit longer, but really exotic is so fast it’s really not an adequate measurement to how long it “should” take to gear up. Honestly I don’t really see a problem with the ascended armor stats and acquisition. (I’ve made multiple sets and haven’t really had any issue) If you don’t think it’s worth it, then don’t worry about it. If you want the extra little bonus to stats, go for it!
I’m actually in disagreement, a large portion of the community was against the initial jump from exotic to ascended as vertical progression is not what GW2 was/is about, it’s horizontal, so endgame should earn graphical things etc, but not a statistical advantage.
As far as “lots of time and farming” yes ascended does take more time then exotic; how ever be honest how long does exotic take…
^^; I’m not actually sure. When I saw the thing about buying the game again I was totally lost too, so I just figured it was a way of saying the OP wouldn’t mind paying for it.
Ahh yea actually I’m really not sure what the OP means, with that part I’m just guessing.
And super glad we can make more then one character per account :P
My guess is when the OP says he would buy the game again hes eluding to being willing to pay for the ability to change the race. I’m unsure as to why someone who wants to change their race so much they would start a new account wouldn’t just create a new character.
@Miku: Map Completion can be done again, or even much faster, if he only gets the needed waypoints. LW Stuff can also be done again, or the items are accountbound anyway (or just fluff and personal memory), he shouldn’t delete his old character, so he can still get all birthday presents and personal inventory expansions are in the tp.
So all in all you can get a race change with 2k Gems (including three inventory expansions and a new characterslot) and a bit of time. Seems like a reasonable enough deal for a feature thats gamebreaking otherwise.
Right, obviously all of the things could be re-done and re-purchased. That doesn’t change the fact that it would still have to be done or purchased when creating a new character. Which makes it not exactly the same thing. As I said I completely understand why it isn’t an available feature, how ever that doesn’t mean creating a new character is the same as being able to change the race with a token etc.
As others have said A-net has made a few comments on this, unfortunately to the probably not going to happen tune. I would personally LOVE a way to change races, but I do understand the reasoning behind not having it.
You could simply create a new character with the race you wish to play. Ascended Gear is account bound, so you don’t have to craft it again and exotics would be easy to get.
While this is true, what you aren’t adding is… Map completion, LW stuff, Character birthday, crafting (not that its hard to craft), and most importantly personal inventory expansions purchased for a character.
While it would be great to fix it for those that have it. It’s the extreme minority of players, I don’t really think that would be “more incentive to take another look”, actually it would be less incentive as it will effect less players.
I 100% agree with Donari making the tonics mix and match able again would be great! Though I never recalled them being armor skins… Outfits that were mix and matchable with other outfits yes; armor skins no.
You aren’t forced to read the cheevo guides, and many people would rather just follow a guide for the quickest (or one of the quickest) possible paths to their goal.
Remember the new in terms of items like this can have many different meanings. I’m not saying it’s 100% clearly explained, but you did get at least a couple of skins.
If anyone complains about raids requirements (LI, kill proof, etc.) and is against a DPS meter (+more stats) you should just ignore that person.
Rejecting the solution to a problem they have does not make sense.
Wow, that’s a pretty bold statement and extremely close minded statement. There are multiple sides to this discussion. Ignoring a person that disagrees with you on made up “requirements” and the necessity of a DPS meter does nothing to help talk and figure out a mutually agreeable solution.
Rejecting the solution to a problem someone has does not make sense that is true. However this is not “the” solution. This is “a possible” solution that comes with it’s own set of draw backs.
Can all these DPS Meter threads please be merged and sent to the Fractals, Dungeons, and Raids forum so we don’t have to see them any more? Since they’re the only ones who care?
The merged thread got locked with Gaile’s post… While I would be happy too see the DPS meter requests go away (especially with the recent A-net post). Merging isn’t really an option anymore.
One more thing, not about LFG but still coming to raid accessibility. Once DPS meters are a thing, orginized guilds can give numbers of a bottom number DPS or quickness uptime or healing or whatever it is you’re supposed to be doing, that you, as a new player can aim for to know that you’re good enough to start raiding.
It allows you to see your weak points and improve upon them.
Also wanted to mention lastly that there basically exists a DPS meter in-game. WUT?? Yes. It’s called the combat log. The difference is that the combat log is completely unreadable and only serves to see how much a specific skill did in case you’re curious. All that basically is asked for is a revamped, readable, combat log.
Are you talking about a personal only dps/buff meter? To improve and see a persons own weak points they don’t need to see everyone else, only their own. Player A doesn’t need to see player B’s dps to work on his or her own goals.
I agree the combat log is a bit clunky, but I’d much rather have the combat log that only shows personal numbers then a group/raid wide DPS meter.
That appears to be part of the objection, the extreme divide of the community is another thing she mentions specifically.
