(90 second cooldown)
They kill you
they literally KILL YOU if by any chance you have condies on and nec has another fear to chain.
These runes need to be reverted ASAP.
50% chance of proccing a 2secs fear
…..
WHAAAAAAT ?!?!?!
welcome to the “untouchable necs” meta.
What
the
actual
kitten
you have to pay.
Even if you already unlocked the skin.
WHAT
A
JOKE.
Thats only fix i can imagine, hadnt played soloq did 3 games today, all 3 looses.
1. game have 3 engies, obviously none of them plays engi as main yet none of them relogs, what can you do with 3 decap engis? Hold 2 points decapped? Cant kill anything cant bunker anything just decap. So they run from point to point decap it and then run to next one, ofcourse enemy team just takes them out 1 by 1
2. game people fight off points and go to 3rd base whenever we get 2 other, noone even cares about buffs.
3. game, we nicely hold 2 side points but whole thief and mesmer just go middle and die vs bunker guard while getting shot by cannon, so we get outnumbered on sides and lose them. 3v5 basicly, no chance…People doesnt even care about winning you get rank points for winning you get rank points for loosing, just do whatever you want hope you have enough people to carry you…
Remove any rewards for loosing and those who know they cant do anything useful will just stop quing or actually try to win.I wont que again till patch, and if with new system loosing get rewarded then we will just see more PVErs who dont care about winning and will just que to just loose and occasionally win for more rewards.
Keep those who just want to run around and fight in hotjoins, soloq should be PTFO OR GTFO
leave solo q, no point in playing it.
I’m solo queing ( duo-trio) in team q or spending my time in 1vs1 server ( something i always wanted get better to, since in team q you rarely fight 1vs1 the whole time and even in that case, engages happen in a really different way than open spaces).
Best decision ever made.
- no skyhammer
- no spirit watch
- actually decent people
- better in 1vs1
Just get an autoclicker and 1-2 friends.
Problem solved.
Dunno how i am right now, but 2 weeks ago i was top 200 by solo queing in team q, so it’s not THAT bad to join solo-duo.
Try it.
S/D bunkers will be totally broken again imo.
Aside the fact that they used to heal 2-3 times the normal thx to signet bug, we’re forgetting that soothing mist has been changed to regen every 10 secs.
No ICD on cleansing wave + soothing mist+ dwayna runes= ridicolous cleansing capabilities, and they’re even adding regen to trident ( and reducing armor of earth CD so won’t be really mandatory to bring CD reduction trait).
Eles back then were not only able to contest a point vs multiple opponents for ridicolous amount of time, they were also godly in teamfights ( condi removal, heals, boon stacking) now they will really be able to come back and become the ultimate support class, perfectly fitting bunker guards.
Sigh…
5 matches today, 3 were 4vs5.
Got Rom in it, said it was his third 4vs5 ( too).
Went down by 600 positions in one day thanks to afkers.
I think i’m done with solo q till aNet fix this crap.
(edited by Mrbig.8019)
A lot of veteran necros thought that dhuumfire was not necessary. At the time of implementation, the necro community was asking for mobility and CC buffs but instead got dhuumfire. It’s good to have access to a powerful condition such as burning, but to have it proc on crits makes it too passive of a tool. I think having it proc on Life Blasts is a decent idea, but we won’t know how it will affect our gameplay until it’s actually implemented. I see what the devs are trying to do with making the game more active and since DS is so underused in condi builds, it forces us necros to be a little more active and to use all of our abilities.
Ds is underused in condi builds because condi builds lack ways to built it.
No i won’t take LF on marks lawl.
Post patch we’ll have a weaker pre-dumbfire nec, NO ONE will ever go for dhuumfire after patch.
Stayin close point whole game its the worst idea , your team need to fight 4v5 on rest of the map.Roation and map awarnes will help u win games. try to control where enemy is , its not so hard woth . Let say u are going to cap close at start , rest is going mid , u can see how many enemys is there just looking on map , u see 5 u help , u see 4 u scout.Also control who is dead and we he will respawn. U fight decap engi ? Just ignore him on close push mid , win 4v5 , snowball far gg. It realy not fun when i see guy from your team pn close whole game when u and your team is getting wiped all the time and he is no reacting on anything.
Edit: bolded the decap engi part for emphasis
Soooo how bout necros start playing power builds? Just as scary and still hard to kill… Gawd you people act like its condi necro or bust.
Point is, a power nec needs to be babysitted in team q. If you can babysit him, as soon as someone goes down the whole team will follow, but if they focus you you’re going down at the first spike.
moreover, if not built for it, it sucks in every 1vs1 ( an it will be never built for it).
Basically a teamfight machine.
Current condi nec is not only a teamfight machine, but also very stron 1vs1: the only thing he lacks is mobility.
Travelers rune may help with pow nec, otherwise it’s a slow teamfight build capable of doing nothing else.
While purposefully making the match into a 4v4 sounds fair and reasonable, it would diminish the competitiveness of pvp. It’s like playing a game of Chess and agreeing with your opponent at the start, “Hey let’s both toss out our queens! It’ll be fun!” Sure it’s an “equal trade” but it cheapens the competitiveness of the game.
By design, the games are supposed to be 5v5s. Everything about structured pvp is designed with 5v5 in mind – the layout of the map, the secondary objectives, class balance, everything. By building the possibility of 4v4s into the infrastructure of the game, it opens the game into a less competitive, more casual direction. We already have this casual option: it’s called custom arenas, and WvW.
Therefore, in the event there is a 4v5, the next best option is to implement a surrender vote. When you lose your queen in Chess, no one should ever expect for the opponent to purposefully give up their own queen in the name of balance. The only other alternative is to play it through, or surrender. Right now, we do not have a surrender vote option, and this is unacceptable in a supposedly competitive pvp game.
You don’t lose your queen because your opponent did a good move, you’re losing your queen because it has never been there in the pack, so you’re agreeing to play against a player with one piece less and pretending it’s fair.
It isn’t.
Necro will suck hard post patch.
They will remove dhumm ( oh god, no condi necro will ever take it again in PvP, good luck landing life blast and good luck even having enough Life Force to use it anyway).
Nec will be back to pre-dumb fire patch but
- with less bleeds
- less terror damage
So basically worse LOL.
I would go power nec ( i’ve been playing it quite succesfully in top solo q, though i don’t think it will be viable in team q), point is pow nec sucks in 1vs1 if you don’t bring corrupt boon, weakening shroud and signet of spite, and in team q you need to bring wells for lich form shanenigans.
This means you’re gonna lose every 1vs1 against any random war and even against other classes, EVEN ELES ( all its utilities counter power necro, especially in small time frames) something that a condi nec would have never suffered.
One of the biggest advantages of a condi nec is how strong it is 1vs1, against everything but hardcounters: post patch nec will suck in any scenario, teamfight power, 1vs1 and survivability.
I do it everytime. Usually my team rages on me and reports me, but who cares lol
Thief will still run lyssa, at least S/P thieves.
Old glass cannon thief ( hide in shadow, scholar runes) will doubtly become viable, even on trickery build, due to being so easy to focus and having no sustain.
Just my opinion anyway.
Though i undestand Henry point, Super is right.
Without good “skill based” rewards, good players won’t come back, and even if they’re still hanging around, they won’t tryhard for sure.
new patch seems great, but it’s still not enough: Leaderboards-League rewards should be top priority, it’s the only way to incentivize competition.
(edited by Mrbig.8019)
The matchmaking system seems to prioritize getting everyone in to matches asap over proper matchmaking. That means a lot of games where beginners get matched with top 100 players. Ive seen a top 5 player getting matched against a rank 2 zerker staff ele (during peak hours and with little to no waiting time). So they are matching people with 2 games played vs people with 10-15.000 games played.
Iv seen a stream where 2 top ranked players tried to sync queue. They didnt end up in the same match eventho they where extremely close in terms of leaderboard position. When i checked the guys in the team of the streamer only 3 of them where in the top 1000.
It doesnt help that a big part of the community is in somewhat of a slumber, waiting for the patch to go live.There is no real incentive to play atm. No incentive to push ranks above 55 (in fact you get punished for it), no rewards untill the 15th and the meta isnt that enjoyable atm.
There are a lot of other things going on aswell atm. Wvw season, eso release etc etc.
The part about matchmaking is the saddest truth.
I’m trying to play again today only to notice that i get matched with randoms, 3 matches today where i was the only one ranked ( dunno how longer it will last tough if i keep on playing) and matches full of rank 20-30 ( though it doesn’t even matter since current rank 50s are equally bad).
i’m not sure if i’ll be able to stand this anymore.
As someone who used to queue at the very highest level of solo q on multiple accounts maybe I can speak for some of those people you have seen disappear recently.
1, The solo q meta of thieves, warriors, decap engis and more warriors is very demoralising and when I play I usually just mess around with troll builds.
2, I have more fun solo and duo queueing in team queue, which is 99% of my play time now. I never play in a premade and I rarely solo queue because it is either too much work or just lame (solo q). Duo/trio queue is most fun for casual players like me.
3, There is simply too much cheese in this game which leads to a frustrating experience. So everyone is playing less. I have never seen my friend list so empty as recently. Seems the game is reaching new lows in EU. Thieves and warriors are just so overpowered it is hard to really have fun.
4, I am waiting for the patch to hit. 6 months of dominant thieves and warriors has tired me out with respect to this game. It got old a while ago.
With all that being said, the patch changes look amazing. Warriors are finally being hit. Lyssa nerf should hurt thieves too. Although I expect both to still be too strong, at least the cheese will be reduced a little.
I expect a big boost in fun and players after the patch. I will consider try harding this game in solo q again. Team queue will never be a thing for me as the barrier to entry of requiring a 5 man team (and always need a guard/thief/warrior) is just too large for most people who don’t want to base their life around a video game.
So I would recommend quitting before the patch and then the game should be way more fun and fresh for the first time since dhuumfire patch. The lyssa nerf alone is probably the best thing to happen to this game….ever? Good times lie ahead. Have faith.
The reason why i play solo q is to fight skilled opponents in order to increase my skill, something i would never be able to achieve in team q ( mostly because i solo q even in team q) due to them playing with their teams, and also due to knowing that i wouldn’t be able to compete with my current “team” because we mostly play for the lulz and never really tryharded.
Now there are no more good players left in solo q, it’s pure desolation.
The outcome is totally random matches where there’s really no way even to carry, because current scrubs are even STUBBORN in their bad decisions ( mostly due to hotjoin habits).
it’s not really only about skilled players leaving, it’s more about people having no idea how conquest and rotations even works: aside the few ones who used to tryhard when this game has been released ( before quitting) and learned the game properly, newer players have no idea how to play correctly even after 50+ ranks.
There’s no new fresh air, no renewal.
This goes beyond the simple " good players leaving": if good players suddenly all left LoL i can assure you a new generation of skilled players would arise in less than a week.
This problem has deeper roots than this.
I made a thread some time ago where i said solo q was in the worst state ever.
Well i was wrong.
NOW it’s in the worst state ever, to the point that i don’t even understand why so many horrible players even queue.
Moreover everytime i play, ranked people are like 2/10 ( wut), sometimes totally none.
Has EU really reached NA level ?
I’m getting so discouraged that i may even try to play with a team. OMG.
i would like to add this: chill now affects ini regen
by this change no thief ever will be able to spam, if chilled and non thieves would have a very strong counterplay against thieves
because mesmer has so many chills…
Believe it or not, changes that thief needs don’t all revolve around making it an even matchup vs. a Mesmer. Harder counters exist than Thief > Berserker Mesmer.
Engi counters thief, let’s all cry about engies LOL.
i approve of this.
I wouldn’t mind seeing the 5th bonus go from 5 stacks to 3/4 or something. But I think that is all that is needed. I mean lyysa runes are more OP and we have put up with them for long enough. At least if hambow/condi warrior or thief takes these runes then their sustain will be way way less. This means they will require smarter play and more skill.
The issue is not with thieves.
The issue is with engies that will magnet pull → pry bar you for 10 stacks of confusion, + pistol 3 + concussion bomb in less than 2 secs, potentially 19 stacks of confusion.
Add this to big ole bomb, shield 4-5, flamethrower and all the kitten. even without flamethrower engi has so many interrupts it’s not even funny.
Or interrupt condi mesmers ( even rampagers Sword/pistol-Staff).
God, it’s going to be ridicolous.
Not sure what’s your point, anyway the only issue i see is disabling shot ( shortbow 3) spam.
I’ll say it plenty of times: add a kittening aftercast to the skill so you can’t spam it for ages without giving openings.
Crying about shortbow is silly, it counters mesmers and that is all.
You’re a good mesmer so you know you can use range in order to avoid shortbow spam.
If shortbow 3 gets fixed killing bad thieves won’t be an issue.
+ 1.
I’m rank 55 and i don’t want dragon finisherz if they’re going to be handled to me like this.
There’s no respect for those who achieved their rank in the legit way.
They may be pointless, but it’s still shet ton of time.
moot point.
no one cares about ranks, they’re pointless.
When paradigm was on top, azshene wasn’t even rank 40 (lel).
High rank means you’ve played a lot and/or farmed hotjoin by spamming granades on nifhel (cough cough), by no means i shows how skilled you are.
this at least for rank 35 +, after that it’s really totally random.
moreover plying solo and playing in a team is like sea and earth: you can be the best solo player in the world and suck kitten in team q becaues you don’t know how to rotate with your team.
Overall you can’t tell, so who cares lol.
Well I think some people here (on the forums) just show themselves to be haters. When they do dumb stuff (or nothing at all) I will QQ with the rest and feel justified. But when they do good stuff and nerf stuff that people have been wanting for ages then I give anet credit.
They deserve credit for this patch. It looks amazing. The rewards alone are going to bring in many players. Then they have nerfed some of the game destroying builds so hopefully we can get some more fun out of the game.
we’ll talk again when necros will lose to engeneers with 15 stacks of confusion on by simply using scepter auto.
They made a really good work for this patch, but perplexity runes will totally destroy the game in less than a week, and if they’re going to get ladder rewards in order to help competition, they will destroy both solo q and team q with confusion spam.
Be prepared.
aNet, keep in mind those players who are now 60-70+.
Those players invested ridicolous amount of time to get there.
Do the right thing, give them something UNIQUE.
They have been the most dedicated yet they’ll get the worse threatment.
No, just no.
Just one thing.
Perplexity runes.
A good decap engie is literally impossible to kill 1v1. If you die 1v1 as decap pre patch you made some awfull mistakes. I could keep up vs multiple top 30/tournament level players at the same time. And i played like 10 games of decap in total so its not like im super experienced on it.
Are you telling me that you could do better than those guys?
Your first sentence is already wrong. If the de-cap have AR (pre-patch) and you’re running a full condition build, then yes, there’s no way or near impossible to kill de-cap 1v1.
But if you try something like a S/P Thief or damage sword Guardian, who both have a numbers of blind, teleport, and burst damage, in 1v1 the de-cap can be in a very uneasy spot where his CC will often miss due to blind, if the CC did hit it will become without meaning when Thief/Guardian just teleport back, and AR definitely can’t save you from high damage burst.
There are also burst Warrior who have good access of Stability, and Mesmer who can both kite and deal constant damage to you with phantasm or shutter illusion on a spot away from point.
People often complain because the builds they’re currently using can’t beat something, and rarely to really try finding the solution of it.
If multiple people go up against 1 de-cap and can’t take it down, there could be several reasons:
1) They’re all running full condition builds, which is just stupid in setup.
2) They don’t understand how to deal with a de-cap well enough yet.Everyone at the top of the ladder knows decap is over the top in its current state. The fact that less US players cheese to the top leads to less complaints and less of an issue. In EU where the ladder is a bit more active/competetive people tend to play to win…thats means a constant stream of decap engies pretty much every single game.
REAL people at the top of the ladder would know how to deal with de-cap properly, either by skill or overall tactic.
The only counter to decap is D/P thief.
S/P thief can’t kill him due to protection injection. DPS guard will get the point fully capped by the decapper.
The only way to avoid decap is to leave him alone and have the thief to rotate everytime.
What are you even talkin about ?
Perplexity will totally ruin the game.
Condi wars ( mostly) and engies will become the worst cancer this game ever met.
You guys are looking at it wrong. Dragon is no longer nearly as prestigious, it should be viewed as level 80 in PvE. It simply shows max rank, or at least that is what ANet is trying to do. Imo this is alright, but you have to do something so that r60/70 players now get something for their dedication. Currently a player like Oeggs who has 1000000 hours in this game and is r70 will have what? Skins that any Pver could achieve in a few hundred hours, and thats about it!>? What will an experienced Pver have now?! More skins than PvPers, Legendaries already, the only thing they wont have is the skill that good PvPers have. I agree that making ranks more attainable is a very good idea, but that being said, something must be done for the current rank 70s, otherwise, I myself who is close to mid 50s will be the same rank and have everything that marvin or chaith will have. This is crazy. I like the idea of Infinite ranks so that the prestige is shown, or rewards such as legendaries for r60s and 70s….. rewards for leaderboards would also be chill cuz ya kno im like up der
What he said.
All this PvP rewards stuff is pretty good, BUT we need leaderboard rewards, or league rewards.
No point in playing competitively without them, you just need to play a lot.
Still no skill-related rewards, and this is not the way to go .
Pls define “leecher”.
Personally i always afk if 4vs5 happens, and my teammates almost alwyas report me, no matters if they win or lose lol.
I don’t want to be reported even more lel.
Do you get banned for it, or do you just enjoy counting the number of times you get reported?
I don’t think i’ve been clear enough.
I afk when MY OPPONENTS are 4 and we’re 5, in order to make stuff even.
there are other players like fraelina who always do the same. i don’t know about him, but my teammates very often report me for botting ( aside all insults).
“Technically” i’m leechin, but mostly due to the system being unfair for my opponents.
I don’t want to give my teammates any more legit ways to make me banned lel.
Pls define “leecher”.
Personally i always afk if 4vs5 happens, and my teammates almost alwyas report me, no matters if they win or lose lol.
I don’t want to be reported even more lel.
Soldier’s amulet is missing Critical Damage (Ferocity), Sigil of Intelligence is bad with Hambow because you’ll proc on Mesmer clones, Ranger Spirits, Necro Minions, and your fire field hitting aoe. Currently, all on-swap sigils have a 9 second internal cooldown, I would be surprised if they removed that.
So they won’t crit for 3-4 k but only for 3k. Legit.
9 secs CD yeah…
hammer -> intelligence, battle
Longbow -> energy, leeching
Legit.
Ah, don’t forget we have valk ammu.
(edited by Mrbig.8019)
stuff
Lol every high LB ranked people wants thief nerfed, i main thief and i want it nerfed.
The point is KNOWING what is wrong and what is fine.
A thief 2 shotting you is fine, it was able to one shot guards in the past ( it needed ITS EXECUTION TIME slowered, and in fact it happened), anyone crying about thief damage is really a scrub and should seriously l2p.
What is NOT it’s thief survivability and capability to decide engagements.
The second one, mentioned by karsaib, is what defines the thief and can’t be nerfed.
Its survivability received small buffs which become huge in the long run: ini buff ( disabling shot spam), Mug nerf ( 2k heal) and Slieght of hand ( steal every 20 secs CD).
THESE are things that should be looked at.
Not pistol whip, not ini regen ( tough it wasn’t really a needed buff but whatever), not damage.
Not even our overpowered utilities like shadow refuge and shadowstep, because they’re not gamebreaking and poor design.
Unlike shortbow 3 spam or multi-tasking-1button- istant skill on a 20 secs CD.
I’ll say it again.
aftercast on disabling shot
Sleight of hand fixed to 30 secs
Mug nerf reverted with slight decrease to damage
Thief fixed.
Don’t come in here telling people to use their brain when you’ve already lied about what profession you play: Necro (thief main) and then followed that up trying to associate skill with leaderboards as a prerequisite to have a conversation. Then, don’t get me started on your claim that thief burst is a skill shot.
Lol so you really think people can’t play various professions ?
My main is thief but i also play power necro ( always have) with decent success, especially against thieves ( one of the easiest professions to eat alive 1vs1), at least it’s the only proff i can say i play at a good level aside thief.
I’m using leaderboards as a “prerequisite” because if you are not good enough to be in it, knowing they’re a joke and you really don’t need to be THAT good to be in it, then you CAN’T have a legit idea about how some stuff plays.
Thief burst IS a skill shot because it has a build up, especially now that nobody runs quickness u-skills ( like in the past when the burst was quickened steal-stab+ HS and the thief couldn’t even be seen, and THAT was a problem).
When i play team q with my guildies ( very rare, since i mostly solo pug) we ALWAYS know where opponent’s thief is, in order to avoid backcapping or ( guess what) being bursted down by the full combo ( when they play D/P) and usually it comes down to thief pressuring the other thief, engaging a side 1vs1.
If you’re not able to do this, than it’s your fault, if you can’t follow the thief then don’t expect people to take your opinion seriously, because it’s seriously a l2p issue.
Thief is OP but due to various issues like people with good experience and knowledge ( of top tier PvP) have already pointed out.
Your claims agains thieves have no foundation, it’s more of a personal hate.
Reverting mug nerf is probably the single worst thing they could do to all of pvp. Try to remember why it was nerfed in the first place.
I used sleight of hand before they added the steal reduction… I agree that it is a bit OP, but it does have a huge opportunity cost as well. Maybe there is some middle ground.
I disagree with your points on shortbow… Usually spamming #3 is a sign that the thief is in really bad shape (they had to swap to shortbow after all). If possible I think the skill should be sped up so that it doesn’t last so long when used 4+ times in a row.
Edit: to Ricky saying s/d is untargetable… I think this is only partly true. Good players recognize their evade frames on flanking now and target swap with CC effects so they don’t have much chance to start spamming anti-focus dodge rolls. Zerk s/d has some decent counter play in this way, but I believe it will need reevaluated with the new changes coming up to runes/sigils. Will intelligence/energy soldier amulet s/d be a thing? Idk but soldier s/d can be surprisingly strong already even without speccing into evades
Mug was nerfed because hotjoin heroes were not able to l2p, no one in high end tPvP was crying about thieves and the most succesful team ( Paradigm, ndr) was at the top of the food chain without one ( and thieves, inbetween mug nerf and S/D buff were almost totally worthless).
Now, with increased ini regen, having mug reverted would be the best way to handle thieves issue, that more than pure damage is SURVIVABILITY AND SUSTAIN, mostly mug and sleight of hand’s steal reduction related.
Reagrding shortbow, if the thief is in a bad shape letting him LOLOLOLOL evade-spam is ridicolous, reason why thieves are not easy to focus even without speccing into evades.
Bad thieves can win against good ones simply because that thief randomly evaded the burst while evade spamming randomly, the same regarding other professions ( ele burst randomly evaded by shortbow 3 spam).
This is unacceptable, it was acceptable pre ini buff since a thief would be dead meat after a couple of evades, now it isn’t with 50% vigor uptime and super ini regen.
And regarding S/D, it’s still the most broken thief build by far, point is S/P is stronger in teamfights.
S/D thieves can’t be focused, it’s a fact.
It’s fine if a thief oneshots you, it’s not fine if he’s also able to outsustain you.
Any game which wants any semblance of balance should not condone one shotting someone. You have a whole map dedicated to that concept and it is the most despised map in the game.
LoL is full of oneshots, as long as they’re skillshots.
Thief burst is still a skillshot, you won’t be oneshoetted anyway and you can easily evade it.
Skyhammer is hater because it’s full of ONESHOTS MECHANICS easily spammed by some classes, without skill shots ( stealth pulls, mesmer focus etc. etc.).
A skillshot burst is not a oneshot mechanic.
Thief burst is not a skill shot…What are you on about? Currently there are so many teleports to make sure you land your burst it is nigh impossible to miss it. If you do miss it; don’t worry you’ll be able to try again in a very short period of time.
This because traited steal is on a 20 secs CD.
Bringing it at 30 secs CD with no further reductions would solve this issue.
2 teleports both on 30 secs CD.
This would also nerf fury and swiftness uptime, and stability ripping, and also with mug no longer healing, sustain.
Thief isssue is that it has too much sustain for the damage it deals, a thief specced for damage shouldn’t be able to go 1vs1 against basically all classes aside engeneers.
In the old days if i went 1vs1 i would have died to all classes if i did a single mistake ( on D/P), now perfectly played D/P beats almost everything, so we should ask….
What has really changed ?
We all know the answer, and the issues are ini regen, sleight of hand and disabling shot.
use your brain.
Reverting mug nerf is probably the single worst thing they could do to all of pvp. Try to remember why it was nerfed in the first place.
I used sleight of hand before they added the steal reduction… I agree that it is a bit OP, but it does have a huge opportunity cost as well. Maybe there is some middle ground.
I disagree with your points on shortbow… Usually spamming #3 is a sign that the thief is in really bad shape (they had to swap to shortbow after all). If possible I think the skill should be sped up so that it doesn’t last so long when used 4+ times in a row.
Edit: to Ricky saying s/d is untargetable… I think this is only partly true. Good players recognize their evade frames on flanking now and target swap with CC effects so they don’t have much chance to start spamming anti-focus dodge rolls. Zerk s/d has some decent counter play in this way, but I believe it will need reevaluated with the new changes coming up to runes/sigils. Will intelligence/energy soldier amulet s/d be a thing? Idk but soldier s/d can be surprisingly strong already even without speccing into evades
Mug was nerfed because hotjoin heroes were not able to l2p, no one in high end tPvP was crying about thieves and the most succesful team ( Paradigm, ndr) was at the top of the food chain without one ( and thieves, inbetween mug nerf and S/D buff were almost totally worthless).
Now, with increased ini regen, having mug reverted would be the best way to handle thieves issue, that more than pure damage is SURVIVABILITY AND SUSTAIN, mostly mug and sleight of hand’s steal reduction related.
Reagrding shortbow, if the thief is in a bad shape letting him LOLOLOLOL evade-spam is ridicolous, reason why thieves are not easy to focus even without speccing into evades.
Bad thieves can win against good ones simply because that thief randomly evaded the burst while evade spamming randomly, the same regarding other professions ( ele burst randomly evaded by shortbow 3 spam).
This is unacceptable, it was acceptable pre ini buff since a thief would be dead meat after a couple of evades, now it isn’t with 50% vigor uptime and super ini regen.
And regarding S/D, it’s still the most broken thief build by far, point is S/P is stronger in teamfights.
S/D thieves can’t be focused, it’s a fact.
It’s fine if a thief oneshots you, it’s not fine if he’s also able to outsustain you.
Any game which wants any semblance of balance should not condone one shotting someone. You have a whole map dedicated to that concept and it is the most despised map in the game.
LoL is full of oneshots, as long as they’re skillshots.
Thief burst is still a skillshot, you won’t be oneshoetted anyway and you can easily evade it.
Skyhammer is hater because it’s full of ONESHOTS MECHANICS easily spammed by some classes, without skill shots ( stealth pulls, mesmer focus etc. etc.).
A skillshot burst is not a oneshot mechanic.
Pistol whip isn’t THE problem, but it is A problem.
The skill does too much and costs too little.
Having said that, I then agree with others saying other things on thief are a problem. I have said many times that pistol whip is the tip of the iceberg and in reality thief needs really significant nerfs.
I doubt anet will nerf lyssa runes, which actually would help the game a ton seen as all the OP builds (all warrior and thief) totally abuse these runes. Aside from that many of the thief skills alluded to above need a nerf.
The thing to remember is that (imo) the best 3 roamer builds in the game are thief. S/p, S/d and D/p are all too strong right now. You can’t just nerf pistol whip into oblivion because it doesn’t solve the problem. The problem is way deeper than that.
I don’t think anet are going to make the significant changes to thief suggested in this thread. But we can hope I suppose.
I would love to see them just hit around 10 thief skills/utilities. I still think if this happened thief would be more than viable. It is so inherently strong that anet shouldn’t, in theory, be concerned with overnerfing it.
The only way I would accept thief not being nerfed in the upcoming patch is if lyysa runes receive a big nerf. Removing stab and aegis does only a little. I would like to see the 6th part be put on a 70 second icd. This alone would make thieves require a ton more skill to be used profitably. No “second wind” from lyysa runes being abused.
With the fact that all thieve specs are OP, I actually like the idea to just nerf their profession mechanic. A nerf to steal would be a really good change for the game.
Our profession mechanic has been largely buffed because it was kittenty for almost 1 year.
In the old burst meta thief was really hard to play because basically all professions could outsustain you and a single mistake could lead you to death, even against mesmers ( that now say they’re “hardcountered” by thieves), reason why we have such overpowered stuff like shadowstep u-skill.
Things started to change with mug nerf ( and added healing) + sleight of hand.
Aside boon ripping, steal is currently a big “window of opportunity” + 2k heal every 20 secs that made all other classes ( that would easily outsustain you) easier to deafeat, while making broken stuff like shadowstep even more broken.
Paired with higher ini regen and shortbow being a must have in every thief build, every build has access to evade spamming ( usually you can win 1vs1 with shortbow alone, at least if you know how to land cluster bomb).
Imo, without changing too much, some simple changes would make thief a lot less strong.
- Add an after cast to disabling shot
- Revert mug nerf ( no heal gained, make it able to crit again), reduce damage slightly
- Nerf sleight of hand, steal recharge no more affected. Steal recharge blocked at 30 secs
Currently, thief issue is survivability, too much of it. Evade spamming with shortbow is ridicolous.
It’s fine if a thief oneshots you, it’s not fine if he’s also able to outsustain you.
This changes are more than enough to bring thief back in line with other proffs.
Thanks for keeping it civil and constructive in here guys. It always helps us when you guys proffer facts/theories as to why something’s not balanced correctly, and then offer proposed solutions as to how you think it can be fixed. You guys are also doing a good job of honing in on where it’s most used, how it’s used, what you feel is too strong about it.
One recurring theme I’m seeing here is people feel that the initiative work lately has helped to benefit this skill.
Thanks for keeping it constructive.
I personally do NOT think it is an initiative thing. That does help with being able to use it more often, but it is not the biggest issue.
The problem is the entire IS—>PW combo. An immobilize, a stun, an evade, and good damage is too much for two skills. I’d like to see the stun or the evade removed.
If you took initiative away, would you still feel that way if they used two abilities (put them on cd) to do that?
It is the thief design, imo, that will continue to be problematic. You address one thing and you’re just peeling layers to get to another issue.
They aren’t going to completely redesign a class at this point. Better to look at incremental fixes. Removing the evade or the stun would add more counter play and increase the thief skill cap a bit.
Removing the stun could potentially make S/P thief the strongest build ever made
No cast time spammable evade ( or little cast time) with tons of damage. Removing the stun would alo increase the dps of the skill.
basically a burst build with more survivability, that would make D/P obsolete.
Pls, no, better redesigning it totally
Pistol Whip is clearly the problem – Just lower the damage for now and see what happens.
It’ll be a mistake to start messing about with traits that will affect D/P or S/D.
S/D thief is even more broken. At least you can focus an S/p thief, somethign you can’t do with S/D thieves.
S/P being superior is more about the build rather the weapon set ( tough S/P is thief strongest team fight set up).
if you deserve to be there, it’s really about pure luck or system abusing ( unless you really play a lot, like collero lel).
In my case, i play about 7-8 solo q each day, so if it happens that nobody is playing when i play ( since i always play at the same hours) it will mean that i’ll be matched with randoms, and my winning chance will be 50/50 no matter what ( due to pure randomness).
You can’t carry 4 people, especially on maps like temple unless you play carry builds like nec, decap engi or bunker guard ( also thief to some extent, but thieves work better in an efficient team).
yesterday i lost like 8 matches in a row because kitten happens, lol. Now i’m just back to my usual place, so if you don’t play THAT much, luck is a really big factor.
to pyriall, do you know how much initiative skill 5 costs? you can’t barely do anything after it any more. and it blinds once per second, as soon as you use an attack like 100b you will still hit the thief.
.
Yes I know how much it costs. I also have the benefit of playing over 1000 games on every profession in every build imaginable. The common theme is that no matter what berserker build you play (outside of dps guardian), thieves make obsolete. Given their role in a team match they also make dps guardian obsolete. As I stated previously, not all professions can overload the blind with a multiple hit ability.
As to the thief doing anything after dropping it…all you need to do is auto attack out of it. If you are using dagger, you’ll have the added benefit of putting poison on your opponent. If sword, you’ll apply weakness and cripple. All the while you regain initiative.
Dude pls, stop this nonsense.
You’ve literally no clue about the thief profession and i really hope aNet won’t listen to people like you ( sad part is they do).
The only problem is, I actually play this game. Where as you obviously do not. You’re just another one of those delusional players who mistakes your success on thief as skill when in reality it is the broken nature of the thief profession as a whole.
Here’s your chance to prove me wrong. Go play another berserker build non-thief on a team and show me how skilled you were against them. I’ll wait here.
I play power necro in top 100 solo q.
And also in team q, where i’m around 300-400 tough playing mostly as a solo player.
Sadly i can’t find you nor in EU neither in NA solo or team q ( really didn’t want to pick up this argument, but whatever).
learn how to play the game properly before spouting nonsense.
I’ve been top 200 in both team and solo que. I’m not sure why you bring this up. Both queues are nothing more than glorified hotjoin.
What nonsense? I’ve played every single power build you can play and every one of them is made obsolete by thieves.
Exactly.
To be in leaderboard you don’t even be to need THAT competitive.
Still i can’t find you there.
This should show how good you are, if you can’t even be in leaderboard in this ridicolous state.
Get better, than you may legitimately post.
Thank you.
to pyriall, do you know how much initiative skill 5 costs? you can’t barely do anything after it any more. and it blinds once per second, as soon as you use an attack like 100b you will still hit the thief.
.
Yes I know how much it costs. I also have the benefit of playing over 1000 games on every profession in every build imaginable. The common theme is that no matter what berserker build you play (outside of dps guardian), thieves make obsolete. Given their role in a team match they also make dps guardian obsolete. As I stated previously, not all professions can overload the blind with a multiple hit ability.
As to the thief doing anything after dropping it…all you need to do is auto attack out of it. If you are using dagger, you’ll have the added benefit of putting poison on your opponent. If sword, you’ll apply weakness and cripple. All the while you regain initiative.
Dude pls, stop this nonsense.
You’ve literally no clue about the thief profession and i really hope aNet won’t listen to people like you ( sad part is they do).
The only problem is, I actually play this game. Where as you obviously do not. You’re just another one of those delusional players who mistakes your success on thief as skill when in reality it is the broken nature of the thief profession as a whole.
Here’s your chance to prove me wrong. Go play another berserker build non-thief on a team and show me how skilled you were against them. I’ll wait here.
I play power necro in top 100 solo q.
And also in team q, where i’m around 300-400 tough playing mostly as a solo player.
Sadly i can’t find you nor in EU neither in NA solo or team q ( really didn’t want to pick up this argument, but whatever).
learn how to play the game properly before spouting nonsense.
to pyriall, do you know how much initiative skill 5 costs? you can’t barely do anything after it any more. and it blinds once per second, as soon as you use an attack like 100b you will still hit the thief.
.
Yes I know how much it costs. I also have the benefit of playing over 1000 games on every profession in every build imaginable. The common theme is that no matter what berserker build you play (outside of dps guardian), thieves make obsolete. Given their role in a team match they also make dps guardian obsolete. As I stated previously, not all professions can overload the blind with a multiple hit ability.
As to the thief doing anything after dropping it…all you need to do is auto attack out of it. If you are using dagger, you’ll have the added benefit of putting poison on your opponent. If sword, you’ll apply weakness and cripple. All the while you regain initiative.
Dude pls, stop this nonsense.
You’ve literally no clue about the thief profession and i really hope aNet won’t listen to people like you ( sad part is they do).
imo “steal” is the issue
One of many issues.
The issue is ress control PAIRED with trickery steal, and the fact PW lasts so long you almost regenerate all ini ( you can effectively spam PW 5 times before running out of ini).
I’m not going to defend Pistol Whip but I will point out that Pistol Whip has been largely unchanged since release. Only recently, and briefly during the first months, has it been considered overpowered.
Ask yourself why? If the ability hasn’t really changed (they did clean up the aftercast a bit, but also fixed the stun-sigil scaling to 1.0 seconds) then what has?
Maybe the appeal of Pistol Whip roots from elsewhere.
But I’m not going to deny that an ability that combines a stun, evades and nice cleave damage is problematic.
The skill has became a problem after ini buff.
The whole combo lasts a good amount of time ( about 2 secs) so the ability costs just 3 ini for the whole duration ( 2 ini if you’re lucky with inf signet ini proc, 1 ini if combined with steal, 0 if both happen togheter).
Animation cleaning also made it better dps wise and overall it became easier to land it even without porting.
Moreover you can easily fake the skill ( by weapon canceling) usually forcing a dodge without spending ini at all ( pro tip).
Sadly PW thief issues are more than simply these ones, but it’s mostly related to the stun, giving thief incredible ress control when combined with bountiful theft and sleight of hand.
You can’t replace the stun with something different otherwise the skill becomes either too clunky or too OP ( for istance with another immo, like lady nag nag already suggested).
They need to change the skill completely, knowing that it is already hard for a PW thief to win 1vs1 against certain professions ( that are, by the way, completely annhilated in team fights by the same thief build) whilst keeping it different from a simple backstab build.
If they’re going to keep the stun, splitting the skill ( like they said in the past) would only make this issue worse ( making the burst with basi venom even harder and almost impossible to see, since at least now you know that if he’s using PW from far with basi venom on, he’s going to port to you, something that will be hard to see if the skill will be split).
Redesign is needed.
The problem with your suggestions for increasing the number of gamemodes in pvp is that there isn’t sufficient player base.
The player base is so low because of the leak of gamemodes and balance . Bring new gamemodes and you have more players. Make fights more fun (balance ) and the player base grows
Pls tell me again about the amazing variety of gamemodes that LoL offers to its players.
I think Mr. Big missed the suggestion about being able to dodge while immob.
On a side note my neighbors dog is named Mr. Big, hes a bulldog.
Yeah i forgot to add that this is also a terrible suggestion, that makes even less sense from a physics standpoint.
It’s fine for immobilize to be stronger than stuns because it’s a lot less present among all weapon sets.
Pin down is already broken.
Adding 2 immo in the same weapon set for THIEVES is like the worse thing that could happen to this game after dumbfire patch.
At least till immo stacking is still in game.
Even without immo stacking, it would be terrible design to have 2 skills that are commonly chained to share the same condition which doesn’t stack, overwriting themselves.
Reason why this is not the way to go with PW.
BTW go thank your neighbours, they know how to pun.
(edited by Mrbig.8019)