Guild Wars 2

Konig Des Todes.2086:

@Narcemus: Canthans were not the original settlers. Luxons have really old tales of coming from another land across an ocean, and they and Kurzicks predate the northern Canthans on the continent. They came from somewhere else – Jeff Grubb implied somewhere to the south of Cantha in an interview.

Similarly, nothing implies that Tyrians/Elonians come from Cantha.

And I don’t think the Spirits of the Wild have realms. Raven himself is tied to the Underworld, after all (and similarly, the charr believe in the Realm of Torment). Also, norn call the Hall of Heroes the “Hall of Spirits.”

Well, I had originally read that to mean that they came from the southern end of the continent, which, if the map we’ve seen of the world is correct, makes more sense being as south of the continent of Cantha is just above the Antarctic. But yes I was making a lot of assumptions. The biggest assumption was that humanity was only mentioned as being brought to Tyria once and being brought into the South of Cantha, so it would make sense to me that all of humanity came from once source (the original exodus).

I gotta agree with Konig. I remember playing through a story where I was constantly reviving all of my NPC allies, and I could do it because Trahearn was soloing all the enemies while I brought the allies back to life. He was totally kicking kitten.

Well thinking logically, Canthan/Kurzick/Luxon territories were the original human settlements. Tyria (continent) wasn’t settled by humanity til much later. So the correlation between architectures could stand as a possibility of this being true. I mean we don’t really see anything about Kurzick or Luxon architecture that wasn’t entirely effected by the Jade Wind which took place thousands of years after humanity appeared in Cantha. Now people may point out that there is a distinct difference between that architecture and the architecture seen in mainland Tyria/Elona, but if you think about it honestly, much of this architecture was likely shaped very much by what humans could see of Arah, the city of the gods. And from there it evolved over the centuries to become something entirely different.

The form of the colossus, being the likeness of a human, doesn’t necessarily mean that it is linked to the origin of humanity. It would not be the first time that we know of a human like entity created within the mists (Razah), but if this were the case I find it interesting that the creatures holding back the Colossus are indeed humans. One theory that people may possess is that perhaps the original planet of humanity was not peaceful (the fact that they left it seems to point in this direction). Perhaps there was a war that split humanity between factions, perhaps even between gods, forcing the 6 that we know of to leave that world, with their followers, and find a new home. Somehow the Colossus was on their side, but he got left behind and sealed up to prevent him from assisting them, and those human diviners are followers of another pantheon of gods. Speculating is always fun I personally think it would be cool if we could somehow find our way to that human homeworld, but with the already overwhelming amount of human oriented sectors of the mists (Underworld, Fissure of Woe, Hall of Heroes, Realm of Torment) I get the feeling that they will spend more time expanding on the realms of more of the other races (Great Forge, Realms of the Spirits of the Wild).

Heck, I could see agents of Abaddon planning the “incident” that lead to Lord Odran’s death. I mean at that point in time he had the power over those portals, but with his death, they could slip out without a problem.

And image appears

Two Trahearns at the end of a long hallway.

Come play with us Oglaf. Forever, and ever.

Well that’s new to me Konig, lol. All I remember hearing was that the ToA was seen as being a holy location long before the shrines were placed there.

Just a thought on the Krait. GW1 EotN was the first time we see the Krait in the GW Universe. Perhaps this was also their first time to come up to land. If this was the case then it could make sense that a race used to the depths of the ocean that could morph would continue to do that until they found a form which fit their current situation the best. They would then stick to this form for the most part. So in other words, they no longer need to morph because they have found the form that fits their situation for now. So I could see Krait of a different form appearing if we go into the depths of the ocean.

It’s a thorn, thorn’s aren’t always known to take root and grow :P

Yeah you are right Konig. I should have said it started with the Fortune Teller and Shiro, not the Titans. My mistake. I had mentioned them, but rookie mistake I went with the first game not the first timeline event.

I know and understand the situation, I’m just saying it’s no different from other theories. I mean it wasn’t until GW2 that we learned that the humans aren’t native to Tyria, before GW2 it was assumed that the gods made the whole planet (remember?). Theories will rise and fall until new information brings things to light.

Why do we call places Sanctum Cay, or Stingray Strand, or Black Curtain, or Lion’s Arch. We are honestly unlikely to get origins to a lot of names.

I’m not saying that Varesh wouldn’t have started things if Kormir hadn’t gotten there first, or that Kormir was knowingly doing it. I’m just saying that yes she kind of did start things (in a sense). Remember things technically started with the Titans in Tyria.

Oglaf.1074:

Aren’t the Risen Gorillas pushing the lore as far as it can go anyway..?

How are risen gorillas pushing lore any more than risen oxen, chickens, or eagles?

We have no idea what the wildlife was in Orr before Zhaitan, or before GW1. It was always cut off from us. For all we know there were plenty of Gorilla skeletons down there in the depths, and as it seems he can do, Zhaitan raised them and gave them new flesh (magically or surgically). I don’t get the lore breaking factor…

I believe they are correct. By going into the ruined city of Fahranur and reading the words of the Apocrypha (which the hero destroys later) Kormir started the chain of events that lead to Abaddon’s possible release. Now if you wanna get really technical it was Abaddon, because of his machniations with the Lich Lord and Shiro, but if we’re talking just Nightfall, by reading the words it allowed Abaddon’s taint on her. Now obviously Kormir didn’t ever succumb, but she did kinda start it.

I think there’s as much of a chance of that as there is of the Humans and Grawl being related (popular Charr theory) or the Charr and the Grawl being related (popular human theory). It would be fun to learn more about asuran history, and I sure hope that when we delve underground to deal with Primordius more information will come to light on matters like this.

Curuniel.4830:

Narcemus.1348:

Although I will admit that a Pale Tree growing in the ruins of an Elder Dragon’s realm is honestly a great symbol of the Pale Tree’s ultimate victory

I don’t know, it’s possible the Mother would not like a rival, especially a rival grown in an even more innately magical area of Tyria than her own :P I think a subordinate tree works better!

Who says the Pale Tree would see it as a rival? I mean we obviously know that not all Sylvari are good, but other Pale Tree’s are known to exist. I’m more inclined to think that she would see them as kin. And if they were friendly (barring the existence of a fully corrupted Nightmare Court Pale Tree) she would treat them the same. Plus what mother wouldn’t want her first true child to have the chance to grow up even stronger than herself.

I think there are hundreds of reasons Kaineng City may not remain as it used to. I’ve thought about it often hoping that it has disappeared in 250 years.

1) You have an Emperor who doesn’t give a crap what others think. If Usoku doesn’t like the city he’ll just burn it down and start over.
2) The overpopulation problem that created the city was probably drastically reduced between the Afflicted, the Shiro’ken, the Am Fah, The Jade Brotherhood, and the Ministry of Purity. All of the death that took place between Factions and Winds of Change had to make a massive impact.
3) Zhaitan’s Tsunami. I mean there is rumor that the Tsunami hit the Battle Isles, it isn’t crazy to think that it could hit Kaineng, especially when you think that no Tsunami on earth has been created by the uplifting of an entire peninsula from under the ocean, all of the devastating tsunami’s we see are the earth shifting a little underground. And I don’t know about you guys, but I don’t see Kaineng as being strong enough to withstand the effects of a tsunami.

Xter.6271:

A lot of you don’t know Guild Wars 1 lore at all which tells you. I’m just going to quote the wiki here because I’m to lazy to type it. It explains everything.

He says to the GW2 lore forum…

IDK who knows anything about the lore then, lol.

Yeah, although the temple is quite a ways inland from it.

Yeah, with bandits taking up much of the Seraph’s time and the White Mantle choking up the political arena, Humans are far from done. And though they might not face a fully united front from the Centaurs they do still have to deal with them. Humanity is far from “free.” Both humans and charr were bogged down by a load more enemies than the asura, norn and sylvari.

Yeah, for it to be the birth of another pale tree, there would likely be many more out and about. Rhiannoc also died a heroic death fighting off hordes of Undead in Lychmere swamp, but his grave shows no signs of a special tree. I would also like to point out that he was the first Sylvari to die (I specifically remember Caithe mentioning feeling a shudder go out through the dream at his passing), so he has had more time to grow his “tree” than Revered Trebinth.

Smmbod.2605:

3. Dwarves – I’m not even sure if they’re applicable anymore, but it would be awesome to have dwarves back. If not playable, it’d be cool to find some way to at least get dwarven NPCs without shattering the lore.

Dwarven NPC’s don’t break lore, they are in the depths fighting Primordius right now. There is one NPC that is visible through the Durmand Priory (Ogden Stonehealer). I find it very believable that if Primordius breaks out, or if we break into his realm, we will find many dwarves running about fighting him. This said they would definitely be stone dwarves, and highly unlikely to be a playable race.

Based on your complaint the biggest point is Dougal and Riona calling “Gwen the Greatest Hero of Ascalon.” I would like to point out that both of these people were from Ebonhawke, completely trained and pretty much raised in the ways of that city. It would make a lot of sense in my mind that a city founded by this woman would almost worship her in the history that they reveal about her, thus making them see her that way. I do not think it’s about underestimating the GW1 character. Although I fully agree the complete lack of even mentioning the events of GW1 is a bit disturbing.

Yeah, I honestly don’t think the Jumping puzzles should be shortened in any way, I would hate to see all the hard work you guys have put in go to waste, and similarly I think they are a good level of challenge the way they are. My thought is that perhaps the Vista’s should just be moved somehow, perhaps a little further down in the puzzle, or perhaps their own mini-puzzle. But I definitely have friends that would give you a million thanks if you made this change. At this point in time those are the only 3 I can think of. I’m wracking my brain to think of the one that Jezath is mentioning, but I can’t come up with it at the moment.

I’ve seen the second one (although on my screen it said "Kill the Risen Commander to avenge Seiran, but it’s the same thing). I have yet to see the Harathi, but I don’t think I’ve visited that area since joining the Order of Whispers. I am now very interested.

I think the Dredgehaunt one next to Sorrow’s was mentioned as well. This one actually caught me by surprise cause I got the vista and jumped off only to learn there was a jumping puzzle achievement just a hop and a skip from the vista (kinda where the love/hate comes into the equation :P)

I hate to point this out, being a person that is in a love/hate relationship with jumping puzzles. It is kinda annoying that two jumping puzzles are required to get world completion (Vizier’s Tower & Great Wall in Diessa). I’m not calling you out to change this, I’ve gotten used to them, but I have friends that have given up on world completion for this reason, their computers are just too terrible on lag to give them the ability to do these puzzles properly. Just food for thought on future creations.

She’s only really involved and really annoying in 3 missions in Eye of the North. Her involvement in the end cinematic of Destruction’s Depths she pretty much just brought up the idea that the Great Destroyer was the destroyer’s hive mind, and that destroying him would save the day, nothing annoying there. And you can always just ignore her combat text if it’s that bad, I don’t even remember what half of them are anymore. And in my mind the Eye of the North storyline didn’t develop her very well, but she slowly started becoming a bit more likeable through the Hearts of the North and the Underworld dialogues later.

I was personally extremely glad that they included a piece of the Guild Wars pre-searing world and brought it to back to life. I honestly have to say that I missed that little girl post-searing, and that the loss of her and the destruction of Ashford were the two things that devastated me after the Searing. Sure she was annoying, but so is my little cousin, and losing her would devastate me as well. So I honestly think ArenaNet got it right there.

Although I will admit that a Pale Tree growing in the ruins of an Elder Dragon’s realm is honestly a great symbol of the Pale Tree’s ultimate victory

I think it was more showing life coming back to Orr more than anything else. We do not know how the Pale Tree reproduces, but we know that it came from a seed originally, and part of me doubts that it would grow a new one from a thorn (which Caladbog is described to be). Not to say it’s not possible, just not likely.

I’d put Sieran on a tier just above Tybalt. You can’t say he was any less damaged.

Mechos.5640:

it seems highly unlikely that Emperor Usoku would block off all trade, even with his xenophobia, if it meant that Cantha would basically implode in on itself.

Cantha did block off all trade though, we are explicitly told that Usoku chose to end all trade and become isolated right after he shipped the willing tengu off back to Tyria. Now things can change. I mean obviously, without some intervention, Usoku is dead and someone else is in power. What their plans are may be completely different, things do change in 250 years. Another question is if the emperor tried to change his approach, would the Ministry of Purity allow him to keep power, or would they unleash a power play to leave him little more than a figurehead.

Mechos.5640:

As to the Jade Wind however, I’d argue that the magic did not come from the five gods, but instead was drawn from whatever lies beneath the Harvest Temple (which, as mentioned, I hypothesize to be Mordramoth). The Gods may have figured out how to use that magic, but I feel it was Mordramoth that was the ultimate source of it. Think of it like… say… a magical battery. Which is what I hypothesize with the Cataclysm, as well. Basically, since Abaddon was chained, he needed to find a source of magic besides himself to power those massive spells. And what better source of magic than beings made up entirely of magic? Which, in turn, explains why those spells only functioned in those two areas, rather than having Khilbron running around sinking continents hither and thither.

Again some misconceptions. Unless we are told that the lore has changed all that we have to go off of is the old lore. Without that backing we could start speculating that aliens came and dropped off ray guns for the emperors. Based on this, we are told that it was specifically a gift from Dwayna to the Emperor. Plus thinking logically, no mortals have tapped physically into a dragon’s power and haven’t been effected by it. And though we do not know what the source of magic was for the spell that Khilbron used (since we know it can’t be the separated bloodstones), we do know that the goal for his attack was to destroy Arah, and get back at the other gods.

Mechos.5640:

3. To address your third point; there is an inconsistency in your objection. First, you point to the source of the Jade Wind as being magic stolen by Shiro from the Emperor. All well and to the good, if we’re talking about the Emperor that was in the middle of a magical ritual in the Harvest Temple.

Doesn’t really make as much sense, however, if he tried to do the same thing without it. Where would he have got that magic from? Master Togo’s bad voice acting? No, no. I theorize that this ‘second Jade Wind’ he was aiming to unleash was nothing of the sort. We don’t really know what happened, or why he turned to jade, hm?

We know he was encased in jade by the acolytes of Sunn.

You kidding me, Sieran kicks everyone’s kitten in the loveable catagory! Everyone becomes a Sieran!

He He He, that would be awesome.

I think it’s more likely that the asura would ally with the humans, so that the humans and the charr would fight a war of attrition. I think this is likely because the charr are the closest to the asuran level of advancement, so it would be in the asura best interest to have them trapped in war with someone else while they worked on an offensive.

The thing that you are referencing is Oola’s Skill Challenge in Metrica Province. I think her words are closer to “We are the embodiment of magic” than sapient life, but it’s pretty close and can be read that way.

Sap flows somehow. Just because their sap is flowing though doesn’t mean that you could feel it on their leafy skin.

Nightfall dino’s? Huh?

Closest thing I can think of, when it comes to dino’s anywhere near Nightfall would be Hydra’s in the Crystal Desert…

I do agree though, they probably moved out further west and/or north

The best answer is the fact that many times the soul is trapped within the corpse that Zhaitan raises and is thus forced to do his bidding. This is what Tyrians see as evil, because it ruins the balance of life and death, and thus putting down the risen minion puts the soul back to rest. The Necromancers of GW and GW2 are generally seen as creepy and mainly pushed out of constant contact with people, but in the end they deal in balance, many of them being seen as shepherds for the dead.

I do want to point out though, that the power of necromancers doesn’t come from the gods. It comes from the bloodstones.

By technology I was mostly talking about magical constructs along the lines of jade constructs (Golems) and things of this sort. Their “technology” to me seems very similar to a less advanced asuran race tampering with magic to infuse it into objects and create objects much like what can be found in a more highly advanced state in asuran cities.

By the way, 90% of Asuran Technology is magical as well. They have just found ways to use magic through another form.

Yeah, there’s nothing about nuclear power that causes random creatures to be ripped from their space and into the reactor either, lol.

I do think that they have a relatively strong grasp on at least molecules and as is stated radiation. According to skills, asura were able to create radiation fields as early as Eye of the North.

According to the lore players the charr ate everything that has died off between the games, lol.

Well, if you think about it technically, the coral risen have been under the influence of Zhaitan for a much longer time than any of the fresh risen that we run into in the storyline outside of Orr. So it makes sense that their constant contact from their master eventually gave them a little more influence/corruptive magic than the newer counterparts.

I think ArenaNet should make mounted enemies that we have to fight off just to spite the people who want mounts, lol.

“But they can mount why can’t we? *Sobs*Cries*

I want to point out Konig, that if we want to go into the realm of Techtonics, India is (or used to be) it’s own continent. You see techtonically it is being pushed into Asia, just like Africa or any other. So really it is a mixture of techtonics and politics when it comes to the separation of the continents.

Of course otherwise you would have the Elder Dragons in charge of a world that was, up until now, ruled by a mixture of the Mursaat and the demons of Abaddon. The Mursaat would most likely go back into hiding during the ED rising, which means their slaves would just flail about while the ED’s wreaked havok amidst fighting Abaddon and his demons. I’m just seeing a Nightfall world with Mursaat Towers becoming Dragon corrupted, the current scenario seems like the lesser of two evils.

On subject, we’ve gone over this many times, so I do not feel like posting it again, I’ll just leave links.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Have-the-dragons-made-Tyria-poor/first#post1284808

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Economy/first#post1145014

I was just clarifying, because of the fact that some people read “the dead rising” as different things. I do get what you are saying though now, but the point of my post is I do not believe that Grenth (and it may be the case with Dhuum as well) has the ability to control spirits being taken from the Underworld. I would say that the biggest differentiation between the two of them is that Grenth lets it slide in most cases, whereas Dhuum would be scouring the world to send the soul back where he felt it belong, whatever the case.

Yes, but as you yourself have stated Konig, in the current progression of story Cantha seems way too far off to be a part of the story for quite a while. I agree that if they don’t go north to deal with Jormag first they would most likely go to Kralkatorrik, mainly because if Elona was opened up there is a large body of potential allies once their overlord is defeated, and they are much closer than Cantha (and quite possibly a good location to eventually launch into Cantha.

Now my personality agrees with the other players, honestly. I want Cantha and I want Cantha yesterday, but I do not want ArenaNet to mush up the storyline to make it possible. I would prefer that they do the story right and just get there in due time.

Necro minions isn’t the raising of the dead. It is the making of puppets out of flesh. Not really any different than the way that elementalists can create elementals to fight for them in GW2. There is no soul attached to the minions, they merely work based on the will of their master.

The raising of the dead comes from resurrection and revival in GW1. Mostly happening through monks or shrines.

That being said, Grenth seems to have little to no control over keeping the spirits of the dead in the Underworld. I mean there are many spirits wandering Tyria, and in three instances minions are created with souls attached (whether the soul is ripped from the Underworld or simply tied to the body before the spirit leaves is unknown). The instances are the Lich Lord’s use of Rurik, Joko’s undead army (many of which still hold memories of their previous life), and Zhaitan’s army.

@ Konig: It’s one of those things that I read or heard somewhere (in the game I believe), but it has been years since I took it for fact so I do not know where the reference is. I would say it has probably been 2-3 years since I would have read it.

I guess it would be smart of me to listen to the OP. In my mind it would be smartest to match the correlation between the races in how they were during dragon risings, because this major situation brought out the greatest aspects of each race, much like they are doing now with the current races. In those scenarios certain races were much more advanced than their current state (jotun) and other races were distinctly different in their mindsets (seer/mursaat). That being said this is the OP’s topic so I will follow your scenario which seems to be matching the Elder Races as we last knew them (mostly in this instance how we saw them in GW Prophecies/Eye of the North). I say as we last knew them because of the fact that most of the Elder Races are nowhere to be found in the current version of the game.

So in this instance:

The dwarves that we are comparing are the dwarves stuck in their civil war situation, before dooming their race to the Blessing of the Great Dwarf.

The mursaat are a vastly advanced race both magically and technologically.

The Jotun, since we see them in GW2, are a brutal race. They mainly live in small, almost steading like, groups.

The Seer are a vastly mysterious race. All that is really known is they were allied to the Mursaat and betrayed, and that they had some know how with magic, enough to trap it all within the bloodstone.

The Forgotten were caretakers, I like to think of them almost like gardeners. They would pull out weeds here or there to make the garden stay safe, but they are mostly peaceful and balanced.

In my mind the smartest correlations are as follows:

Dwarves/Charr: In the specifically stated scenario above you are absolutely right the dwarves and the charr are the most complimentary group. They are vastly technologically advanced without much reliance on the use of magic. There is the deal with the personality though. Dwarves were very much more benevolent than the charr (not including their xenophobic friends).

Asura/Mursaat: You are very much right here again. They are both very magically advanced, though apparently in differing ways. Mursaat never seem to have moved on to the level of technology that the asura have grown to be accustomed in the past years. I would also like to point out that the asura plotting for world domination is very similar to the way that the mursaat worked in post dragon times.

Forgotten/Sylvari: I do believe this grouping makes the most sense to me. Nowhere in the texts that we can see do the gods seem to tell the forgotten to conquer, instead they just seem to tell them to keep the world safe, and help it flourish. This connects very well with how the sylvari seem to work. They do not conquer, they merely move into areas with the motivation of removing the evil. Once the area is cleansed they move on. The correlation between the forgotten magic which removes corruption and the sylvari trait which keeps them from getting corrupted is also undeniable.

Jotun/Norn: As they currently are you are right as well. The jotun are the most brutal of the still existing elder races, because of this they fit in best with the norn. The fact that the jotun also seem to live mostly in small steading like enclaves as opposed to large civilizations seems to point in that direction as well.

Humans/Seer: It has been mentioned that both are very defense oriented, which is very true. Humanity has had the tenacity to stay one step ahead of one of the disputably most advanced races in Tyria (the charr). And the instance of the seer creating the bloodstone as a kill switch for the Elder Dragons seems like something that a human would do in a near hopeless situation. I do want to point out that, interestingly enough, the bloodstone has moved out of the Seer sphere of influence and into the human one, because of the fact that to re-unite it, a human (specifically of the line of Doric) would be required.