You people don’t seem to understand overall balance. You can’t nerf something without buffing something in return. Like Zero pointed out with WoW Rogues. They have a decent amount of survivability outside of stealth. This is not the case with GW2 Thieves. They are like literally the squishiest class in the game. If you take away stealth from Thieves without buffing their natural defenses they will be utter garbage. And as someone else mentioned you should focus on kitten like kittened faceroll engies before you even think about trying to change stealth.
Like I wouldn’t even really have an issue with what the OP is suggesting, but the whole way you guys are going about this argument is just kittened. All the stealth haters don’t get that the Thief is one of the hardest classes in this game to play and that without stealth they would get crushed in every fight with ease. Hell just get any class that does made AoE dmg and Thieves get blown up going anywhere near them.
First of all you can nerf without buffing, Anet has done this too many times to count (e.g Flanking strike nerf didnt mean an increase in FS damage or longer evade duration and the latest Might nerf didnt mean a global increase in might duration) If Backstab was hitting 15k without vuln and might stacking, it would be nerfed period, armour wouldnt be simultaneously increased.
Secondly this idea thieves have that if you arent in stealth death is imminent, this sort of thinking is the reason for too many bad thieves I am a Dragon that has been using the thief class in pvp only for the past 4 months, and since day one my build has been an evade style one. I have never used shadow refuge, neither do i spam black powder/heartseeker or cloak and dagger, I also do not run shortbow. Lack of shortbow mobility should mean i should emphasize stealth right? wrong, this is a misconception that has gone on for long enough.
To emphasize my point, i should say again that i mained necro since 2012 so an evade thief is nothing like a necro. I say all this because making stealth slightly less effective absolutely does not mean thieves would be helpless.
I still think active stealth tracking only abilites for engis and stealthless classes should be enough. Even if you can detect where an invisible player is, you cannot target so you can only follow or try to ground target aoe and any thief worth anything can still get away. The only thing is backstab might be a little more difficult (not impossible) to get off which is fair considering the damage it does and that thieves have immobilizes all over the place.
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TheBlackLeech suggested damage splash, if im not mistaken, this means when you hit someone, a stealthy opponent that is close by takes some of the damage.
by damage splash i mean the little number that appears above a foe when it is struck, looks like this for crit dmg notice the red splash.
Ohhh i see what you are saying, but what if there is no hit? You are more likely to miss. Its still a guessing game.
All of these people defending stealth I mean can you be any more….really though? Some of these comments defending it are on borderline dementia:
Sigil of fire? you cant target anything in stealth you have to guess with Aoes or swing frantically in every direction. PLUS like someone already said the sigil is not practical for all builds and it doesnt work 100% of the time.
Apparently we have psychics in this world that can see the unseeable and can accurately predict where a moving invisible player is at any given moment. As a thief, i have also done the move in one direction, stealth then evade the random swings backwards in the opposite direction, works everytime.
Comparing Warriors mobilty to stealth? Do some of us not know what stealth is?
TheBlackLeech suggested damage splash, if im not mistaken, this means when you hit someone, a stealthy opponent that is close by takes some of the damage. While the idea might work in some scenarios, it requires more than one person there and the player in stealth has to be close by.
This is what we need, suggestions other than removing stealth. The fact is there is a problem with the options available to deal with stealth, whether or not that is the case is a debate that should be over.
The OP brings up a very good point. Ive played necro for 2 years, then switched to thief about 4 months ago. I play a lot of pvp and while i enjoyed my time as a necro i became increasingly irritated at the lack of an escape.
Lets say im fighting an engi in foefire graveyard, and i see a mesemer coming, I check my skills and my stun breaks are on cooldown, i look around and my teammates are on another point for whatever reason, there is already a very limited amount of things i can do to make it out of that situation alive if anything.
On thief, i don’t run short bow so if im in the same scenario i just pop stealth, then heartseeker my way out of trouble or pressure the mesmer. Because of one skill tht has no cooldown the mesmer and engi are now in danger because im still one person they have to worry about if my team shows up. Whereas on the necro they can tag team and odds are i will die before my team shows up.
Instead of changing the stealth mechanic or removing it completely, i propose tracking abilities for all the classes except Rangers, Thieves and Mesmers.
Necro – Going into Deathshroud allows you to detect enemies in stealth. “Detect the souls of invisible foes” or something like that
Engineers- Sonar ability?
Warriors – Some type of 6th sense that allows em to hear the invisible, would probably translate to a visual feedback, like a pulsating figure
Guardians- Honestly, i think guardians should have a trait making them immune to attacks from stealth considering their effective attacks have such limited range and radius and the class itself is so immobile, but that is up for debate. Their tracking ability could be a symbol that appears over the heads of invisible enemies.
Elementalists- Ability to track the energy of invisible enemies. They’d probably see some form of light moving around.
Note: This doesnt mean while under stealth you can be targeted by single target attack, only Aoes naturally will still work.
Keep in mind there is still the Short Bow and other teleportation skills as welll as a high amount of dodges even with a reduced stealth effectiveness.
O come on really? you are using 35 players as a sample size…. 35! I know forums is supposed to be this ridiculous but there should be limits. No respectable sample/survey uses that low a number and calls it accurate.
If you want a good sample size look at how many people at high pvp rank levels (60-80 ) then compare the main class use, not 35 people out of how many thousands.
Being on a pro team doesnt automatically make you a god. There are probably people out there who are as good as or even better than the competitive players.
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Why are we comparing thief burst to other classes? You guys know matching damage for damage is the fastest way to break the balance right?
Look i wouldn’t go on forums looking for builds, what works for one person may not work for you. P/D can be viable if you make it viable, and the meta might be trash if you don’t play it right. Just mess around with the skills and weapons then get an idea of what your play style is.
From what I have been reading on these forums. The Thief has literally been nerf’d into the ground and unplayable in PvP.
You are right, the game is full of easy mode AoE and CC, Condi builds etc that deal way more damage than a skill shot like back stab. I think if you are wanting a melee play Warrior, if you want a stealth toon play Ranger. Thief is dead.
Thieves are really weak.
The problem with thieves is this: the longer the fight, the lesser your chances of survival.
Can we please be serious? there are still people who havent tried the class and putting out inaccurate comments like this could kill the class.
I’m pvp rank 80 and ive played necro since release, then played thief for the past 3 months with a little guardian in between and i can tell you thief class is very far from weak. The problem is closed minded builds.
I have no clue where this idea of running either s/d or d/p came from, or the 2/0/0/6/6 craze. Lets not forget this popular idea that you HAVE to run shadow refuge. Open up the builds guys. I run an evade style 5/0/0/3/6 with no shadow refuge and no bow and I can tell you this set up has proven to be HIGHLY effective.
It fits well into my evade play style instead of going into stealth every 2 seconds and wasting everyone’s time. Its a lot more rewarding because the build is heavily dependent on split second decisions. I worry much less about CDs like most thieves would in a long fight. The damage is there, the cleanses are there and I can take on multiple decent players at the same time (sometimes)
For me this build surpasses the meta people seem to base the class’ pvp viability on because i built it based on my play style.
My point is, the meta build or whatever build theory crafters come up with that is supposed to be “viable” could really be useless if it doesn’t fit your play style and it could lead you to think the class is “weak”
Fixed.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQRBHbhG2IHNd2WdjtNc4moXokOEKg4FyAoMpcM6CA-TJBBwAAeCAF3fwyJBocZAA
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Honestly..if im not mistaken, DS works during a control skill, foot in the grave makes necros the best stun breakers in the game.
Your son’s build gave me a pretty good idea. I changed it for better survivability and increased the damage (sort of).
Ive been playing necro since around release and necro dps doesnt work the same as other dps, all the power in the world doesnt mean much if your target is moving around and canceling damage. I also run thief and fear stacking doesnt help power necros much if they cant take damage because im breaking stuns and blinding all over the place.
The original build had almost no cleanses, messed with that a bit so it should be fine now, I would have liked to use a purity or generousity sigil in there as well as shrouded removal trait but that might affect some damage survivability but if you find you need more cleanses you can try those out.
Because of lack of teles and all that, chills, cripples and immobilizes are pretty important. DS is also important cuz you want to be able to keep up with stealth and ranged attacks.
Upped the crit to 50% so changed the perception sig to bloodlust. Lemme know how the build works out, i might actually use it.
I replaced staff with D/D to increase movement speed because the original build has no condi damage in it. so now you get the same condi removal with some chill (sigil), but can now simultaneously stack weakness and protection.
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Some comments here made me cringe. Peow I remember you from a match earlier today, you are a ranger right? From what i saw, thief isnt the problem you are having. I am an evade thief unlike 9/10 chicken thieves that go into stealth every 2 seconds, I depend on vigor but that doesn’t mean evades are spammable.
I have (rarely) seen some pretty good rangers. Good meaning rangers who arent always looking for the nearest tree to climb, good meaning even if a thief gets close they still hold their own very well. These very few rangers are timing their attacks immaculately and evading as much as or more than I do as an evade thief.
What you are asking for is for thieves to stand still so you can get your rapid fire in at 1500 units. I would suggest timing your attacks better, thieves have to do this as well especially against mobile builds including some ranger builds.
Everyone has the same problems you do, how we deal with it is timing.
Some of you need to relax. The black powder nerf really doesnt affect d/p thieves in the slightest. NOBODY stands in the black powder longer than 1/2 a second, unless immobilized. The nerf mostly affects PvE, even then its really not that bad. The only substantial nerf is the initiative increase for FS, so it isnt as spammable, even that isn’t nearly as class breaking as some people think it is.
The only major problem with the thief class is most people’s dependence on s/d and flanking strike spams
Yea unfortunality S/D was nerfed to much well sword was so we r looking at new metas for thieves atm since the main spvp build was nerfed. But in the mean time you could go d/p and sb.
Wasnt the nerf just increasing FS initiative cost by one?
I hate to say this but I’m thinking the problem with thieves isn’t anet but the player. I main a necro and people say things like this about the necro all the time, “Oh necros can’t sustain”, “Oh necros are useless in dungeons” “Omg I cannot kill warriors therefore necro is useless, BUFF PLEASE!” don’t let me get started on the ridiculous complaints about the new balances for the class. I found these problems to be non existent when i used certain builds that are very different from the meta.
This leads me to my point, dump the thief meta. FS on the S/D might cost more initiative so it isn’t spammable, big deal, I think its fair if you want to use initiative to spam evades then you should be using stuff to gain initiative, like roll for initiative. Ofcourse no one uses initiative gain builds. If one weapon set was all that made the class, then the class wasn’t very good to begin with.
Ive been messing with the thief class and one thing i noticed was I need to be gaining initiative much faster than the default recharge rate to deal with multiple targets effectively without using stealth or waiting for a recharge after a skills burst
If you want to avoid crowd control skills, instead of waiting for the circles to disappear, isn’t it better to drag your target to you with scorpion wire? at 1200 range you can isolate targets and try dealing with em 1 by 1. The pull causes like a 2 second delay to your targets skills and movement as well which is enough time to do some serious damage.
How about sigil of energy? Honest question, do thieves even use those? I see a lot of sigil of fire, air and accuracy. I asked someone why thieves hardly use the energy and he said you can use it if you want to be dodging unnecessarily and I’m like o_O
If you aren’t using the 2/0/0/6/6 meta are you gaining vigor up time some other way? if not then that might be a problem.
This is a build example of what I’m talking about. I accounted for the stat increase to crit chance and vitality in game (so 50% crit chance instead of 49% and hp should get to about 17k)
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how is 2k power with 50% cc (before fury) for damage?
Hey guys, decided to try out thief and I’m wondering what the lowest amount of crit chance effective for high damage is before fury. I believe generally it is 50% but since its thief, is it something higher cause of the lower hp?
<shakes head> please tell me this is a troll thread. I really dont know wether to laugh or cry. Mad queen, if you don’t want to pay a subscription fee, please stahp…just stahp. charging for expansions? what? you dont just clap your hands and poof! you have an expansion. It all costs money and time, which then costs money, there is no complicated logic to this.
There are only 3 options for keeping an mmorpg alive, subscription, a very popular cash shop or both. You can’t wave a wand and all the staff gets paid for the continous work they do on the game.
The b2p model helps for the initial cost to make the game because a sub model wont cover that cost as quickly. It is the cash shop that allows them to keep updating and fixing the game. I know for sure there are some months where in one i have spent probably 6 months worth of WoWs sub fee. This is why they make us pay for the good stuff, instead of putting it in game, and I am perfectly fine with that.
There are only 3 options for keeping an mmorpg alive, subscription, a very popular cash shop or both. You can’t wave a wand and all the staff gets paid for the continous work they do on the game.
The b2p model helps for the initial cost to make the game because a sub model wont cover that cost as quickly. It is the cash shop that allows them to keep updating and fixing the game. I know for sure there are some months where in one i have spent probably 6 months worth of WoWs sub fee. This is why they make us pay for the good stuff, instead of putting it in game, and I am perfectly fine with that.
Cmon lets be a little serious, this is a ds stun breaker that lasts for 3 seconds (base) with the possibility of a 5 second cooldown that can be achieved in that same trait line . Not to mention that trait line allows for a shorter cooldown on very useful spectral skills, some of which stun break. FIG duration increase is not necessary, like at all.
The amount of healing it adds with 1500+ healing power is less than Healing Signet base passive heal… The “activate death shroud on lethal blow” even more pointless… Damage goes THROUGH Deathshroud and usually when this trait goes off, you will be out of Life force.
When you are stomping and people are damaging the kitten out of you to the point where you’re going to drop but your deathshroud is on cooldown, then you will miss unholy sanctuary.
so much truth lol
Yes i agree the healing effect is pretty bad, but i recognize giving necros warrior type regen will be just a tad bit overpowered. However, something just occured to me, how about conditional healing while in ds. For example, while hp is below 20% heal 300hp/sec, 200 below 50% then 100 above 50%. Again, this is just a random example.
I personally think the class as a whole can do fine without much healing in ds but i guess if the healing was better it will allow build diversity.
Or just allowing necro DS to let self heals work on the real hp bar?
yes that is what im referring to, hp bar not ds bar
Yes i agree the healing effect is pretty bad, but i recognize giving necros warrior type regen will be just a tad bit overpowered. However, something just occured to me, how about conditional healing while in ds. For example, while hp is below 20% heal 300hp/sec, 200 below 50% then 100 above 50%. Again, this is just a random example.
I personally think the class as a whole can do fine without much healing in ds but i guess if the healing was better it will allow build diversity.
Escapes..
A true necro doesn’t escape, a true necro stands there, eats it and dies.. as he should.
You know whats so funny, i think most necros do this, probably why we are considered bottom of the barrel.
<——-Pvp rank 52 necro. I really lold at this one. I’d put necro over, warrior, guardian, thief, ranger definitely and maybe ele, but lets just say below ele. Only engi and mesmer i would really consider over necro. Both in spvp and WvW.
Difficulty really depends on the person but i wil say it is hard not medium. Been playing it for 2 years and i still have to pay very close attention to my skills timing or im skrewed by thief especially.
If you find the trait pointless then you are using it wrong. It is to reduce the risk of dyying while deathflashing to burst with a power build. Look at the trait line, dark armour which instantly bump toughness while channelling, then the grandmaster minor which bumps power according to your toughness. So now assuming you have the furious demise trait i will spell out how the trait is useful in the following steps:
Step 1
Deathflash for the fury to bump your crit chance to at least 70% if you are statted right.
Step 2
use a channel skill such as ghastly claws and life siphon which bumps both your power and toughness so both your damage and armour increase
It is most useful if you want to mantain high pressure on a target to finish em off while your health is low. Life blast is slow so you dont benefit too much from it against someone who kites, evades, and hits more with crits. With the channels you can immobilize first, deathflash and get dem crits in.
If you are able to down the player and the trait kicks in, you can combine it with spec recall ((which i cannot stress enough how glorious that skill is) then heal up. Depending on the situation, you can go back to finish or leave your teamates to finish.
I know for a fact that it has become increasingly difficult for me to get killed in pvp after combining the new necro updates. Even the ability to finish and revive while in ds has greatly improved my survivability. I take a lot more risks now, which is nice.
How good the trait is heavily dependant on your judgement, if you aren’t a good necro, the trait will be next to useless alot of the time. If you are ok, it will work for you sometimes, but if you are an unkillable killing machine, then you will find this thing can be a serious life saving trait. Just wait for the videos of all the OP necros out there posting their escapes thanks to it.
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Wow the veteran community is dumb, someone ask me why. Its like this in evvery MMORPG forums, people with no common sense complaining.
Why dont some of you screaming ‘burn the witch’ ask somoene who hasnt played the game before what the think about the new system, that is who Anet did the changes for. Some clown said something about Anet being in a bad financial state which is why they “dumbed down” the leveling system. This is the sort of people complaining.
If you want an alt, play pvp and get the tomes and sp scrolls, go play end game content and the personal story on your alt. Why in the hell would you want to spend months leveling several times you may already have several other times?
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Lol i will create as many alts as i want and use tomes and sp scrolls because i dont want to go through the leveling process again which can take up to 2 months. In the end, what i want is a full character experience from any class, which can only be gotten when you have all your skills and traits.
Why veterans who have gone through the leveling process before, some several times are complainign when you can automatically get to level 80. Isnt it better to play the personal story and play the end game content without your alt feeling like a ‘gimpd’ version of your main?
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people think the compass is a railroad, when its just pointing you to the nearest thing. “There’s a heart over here!” ignore it and suddenly it’ll change to “there’s an unexplored area over here!” ignore it again and it’ll change to “there’s a point of interest over here!”. People are taking it the wrong way.
If you’re a new player, that compass is your only sense of direction in the open game. Unless you go to a different starting area immediately following tutorial, you pretty much NEED to follow the compass or you’ll get your face stuffed in because you do not have the tools to handle stronger enemies.
I wish this game was like that, knowing that if you make a mistake, you may face certain death. The game feels very small, so many wp and the map split into zones. It would have been better to take out the zones and some wps then give us mounts. Leave the core idea of dynamism, keep a decent difficulty in PvE and then just keep adding content and balances.
People complaining about the new leveling system need to smarten up, it is for new players. MMORPG levelling is supposed to be slow. You shouldnt be hitting the game’s max level in 2 months (i think some could even do it in less). If you are used to the old leveling system especially from leveling multiple characters, you will find the new way of doing things a complete drag. Those who havent played the game before might see it differently.
Its all so $tupid, people complain about quickly getting to end game and then getting bored. Anet responds by adding fractals, WvW tournaments, PvP rewards and other stuff to improve end game, but people still complain. Anet decides to slow down the leveling process so new players can appreciate end game a little more, but somehow the old players still complain.
Some of you need to be smacked and locked in Arah with lupi
It’s not for new players. It’s for 6 year old children that get excited at receiving a gold star from their teacher.
You need to smarten up if you can’t tell they are dumbing it down to ludicrous levels.
<face palm> i wont be surprised if Anet doesnt take us seriously with vets still posting things like this. I never mentioned they are not dumbing the game down, i don’t even care about that because i use skill scrolls and knowledge tomes to level my other toons after doing the proper leveling with my main.
It doesnt matter if the update is for 6 year olds, hell even two year olds, as long as new players like it (which Anet specifically says it is for) then you really shouldnt care. In case you don’t realize this is an MMORPG, that means long leveling process, items and skills you are supposed to get over a LONG period of time, things you do over a LONG period of time. You arent supposed to be repeating the leveling process so many times, and if you do it sure as hell won’t be as satisfying as the first time. Those who do, do it to try out a new class at end game and for the personal story, which you can do at level 80 once you use the tomes and scrolls.
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We’re upset because we would not have bought or played this game had it been like this on release.
This is the dumbest thing ive read today.
I posted this on a similar thread already but i think ill say this here as well; THE LEVELING CHANGES ARE FOR NEW PLAYERS. This means that if you have been playing the game since around the time the game was released like myself, you should not even begin to critique the change. Why? because you do not have the same perspective someone who starts playing today does. New players may actually end up liking the system, they don’t know what the other was like so they have nothing to compare it to.
Vets complained that they get to level 80 then they get bored. Anet responds by adding Fractals, PvP tournaments and rewards, WvW tournaments and living story stuff that vets would gain from the most . Naturally new players won’t complain because they are new players, but vets still do, about the same thing no less. Anet responds by slowing down the leveling process so new players appreciate the end game more because vets clearly don’t. SOMEHOW its the vets complaining. I think i can ask a simple question here, wtf?
People complaining about the new leveling system need to smarten up, it is for new players. MMORPG levelling is supposed to be slow. You shouldnt be hitting the game’s max level in 2 months (i think some could even do it in less). If you are used to the old leveling system especially from leveling multiple characters, you will find the new way of doing things a complete drag. Those who havent played the game before might see it differently.
Its all so $tupid, people complain about quickly getting to end game and then getting bored. Anet responds by adding fractals, WvW tournaments, PvP rewards and other stuff to improve end game, but people still complain. Anet decides to slow down the leveling process so new players can appreciate end game a little more, but somehow the old players still complain.
Some of you need to be smacked and locked in Arah with lupi
Tribal Armour is missing and still no reason why. You take out the best designed light armour, leave the trashy ones which is like 90% of them (even when combined) and then put in dungeon armour that any player can get in a week. FOR WHAT REASON THOUGH?!
Its not like you are designing from scratch. Just put it back in. Everyone wants it, whats the point of keeping it out of the game when threads like this just keep coming up?
On a different note, the feature pack has been pretty good. Much needed UI changes especially to TP, decent class adjustments. The new runes are a little too class specific but not bad.
These two builds will get you guys killed so many times in pve. Also i dont think it is cost efficient getting ascended for one mode only. Stat for WvW, then what you have, if it works will probably work for pve. These builds are bad for necros in pvp and wvw as well. Here is why;
Necros have no vigor, no escape only DS to tank hits with (so you will get hit…alot) and only one aoe damage skill. You now have two problems when dealing with a lot of mobs, you cant avoid their damage often and you cant kill all of em at the same time. Sigil of energy won’t help that much, so for much too long, you will have to just kite to avoid damage.
In pve, you can go power sure, but you have to have near to death and decent toughness at least (2400+), as part of the main build. once you have those then you can do what you want since most things will work for pve.
These builds are the reason why a lot of necros keep saying the class is underpowered against other classes and why they have no sustain or survivability compared to other classes.
I have one, but im not ready to post it yet.
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Don’t necros already have traited heal in DS? When it comes to cleanses, there is no argument, because both guardian and necros are two sides of the same coin. Most of necros party cleanses are passive, which are separated from its own cleanses, and guards is instant. One isnt better than the other. Although, when it comes to cleanses you cannot tell me guard has more overall. Necro also has more party wide healing abilities, you may not like it, but they do. When it comes to making the choice of damage vs survivabilty, necro and guard are glassy when they try to spec for damage, the only difference is guard has the blocks, necro has DS which ultimately can take more sustained damage than guardians blocks. Why do you think the meditation build is so popular if that wasn’t true? what i find really laughable is most think it is heal in death shroud that necros need (which we already have btw), Its protection up time, an escape with no requirements and a fairly short cooldown as well as a ds stun breaker. That is it. We now have two out of the three although, one has to be moved in our trait line and the escape hopefully we will get soon.
If you still don’t get it let me ask you this, what do think is the most dangerous thing about condi mesmers and thieves? to necros It isnt that they can apply conditions because if that was it, we would just transfer it and that would be that. Its that they stealth or blink and it can be difficult landing the transfer in time. Escapes. That is it.
Dranor, the stats that give healing power can also give condi damage or direct damage. Im not talking dedicated healer, im talking a necro more concerned about the entire party than just him/herself.
I am 100% arguing about sustain. Sustain is what we lost in exchange for DS but DS doesn’t work within GW2 combat design due to the reasons I stated. Attrition is our combat design according to the devs- people who are responsible for how the game should work- but since we don’t have sustain, attrition is an impossibility, once again for the reasons I stated.
If your arguments are not about why Necro sustain is lacking or why you believe it isn’t, I have no idea what interest you have in this discussion.
Gaining/Losing Deathshroud IS the Necro’s attrition mechanic. Instead of gaining health like other classes, they gain DS mostly.
They can generate a lot of healing outside of it but, DS is DS for a reason.
so much wisdom O_O. Some of you guys really clamouring for warrior type regen while in DS, would you give warrior DS?
Its easy go condi bunker i WvW but most probably realized it isn’t the best against zergs, too many guardians using the “Save yourselves” shout, sure you can take damage but you might end up being useless most of the time.
^^^^This, so much of this. I personally havent used a healing build so i can’t verify the number but it definitely makes sense. This is what necros should be doing in dungeons for the party, healing. Guardians apply the boons and necros heal the party and cleanse with Transfusion and other traits, staff and well of blood . Even otherwells that will keep the party alive like well of darkness are useful. Any necro doing this are the last to die when things go wrong, i know that is the case for me.
Or the Guardian can handle the boons, healing, and cleansing simultaneously. Because, you know, he can. Then you can take someone else instead of the necro.
Warriors may be able to go immune to damage for shorter periods of time, but they also are capable of regaining health at a pretty good rate while doing so. Necros may be able to prevent more damage in a duel (less against multiple foes), but their health does not replenish during that time or, for that matter, replenish well when not using death shroud. As such, between a Warrior and a necro both playing an attrition game, the Warrior will always win. This is also true of Guardians, Eles, and Rangers. Engineers, Thieves, and Mesmers don’t typically have high healing builds, but SA thieves can play attrition games with the best of them.
I know about guardian boons, but healing and cleansing? they have like one proper party cleanse with a 1 minute cd, necros have party cleanses all over the place even as a utility passive with a1200 radius, guardians can’t heal as much as necros, check the build editor. Of all the classes necro benefits the most out of rune of the monk.
For the longest time, i believed the warriors vs necro thing but lately i realized it may not be as bad as that. In PvP Its taken me months to finally be comfortable fighting a warrior. It may take longer than a thief to kill a decent one but it does happen. Yes depending on the build, necros can’t take that much damage from multiple enemies and if you try to spec to do it, you damage suffers. With those irritating condi thieves, i find plague signet to be a life saver.
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The way you’ve phrased your entire post just makes me disagree with everything you’ve said.
The necro Attrition mechanic is just like the Warriors Attrition mechanic. The Warrior takes hits to the face without the need to dodge using his stances or Block skills or CC to keep the enemy from hitting him. The longer you go without hitting the Warrior’s health directly, the higher the chance that the Warrior will win.
Of course, when all of those are on cooldown, the Warrior has to then focus on evasion and LoS (mind you, this is something the Necro also has the ability to do) but for the most part, the Warrior is able to walk into a fight, sit in the middle of it and absorb a lot of the hits.
A Necro does a similar thing. Take big hits with the Deathshroud mechanic, dodge when Deathshroud is on cooldown, CC people so they can’t hit you or when they do hit you, they do less damage than they would normally (weakness/protection).
A Necro can spec to heal outside of Deathshroud (Regen stacking with Mark of Evasion + Well of Blood, Contagion) as well as inside (Unholy Sanctuary) and they can definitely pull off a similar feat to what Warriors are doing by wearing you out and keeping themselves alive. But the problem, which I think something you failed to touch on, is that these specs aren’t very good at damage like the Warrior speccs are.
The other thing is, Consume Conditions is just an amazing powerful heal and people don’t want to let go of that. If people used Well of Blood instead, the necro could easily heal for over 11k health with the right spec (Well of Blood’s regen scales well with Healing Power).
In conclusion, the Deathshroud mechanic works well with GW2’s combat. Not every class is going to be nimble and quick and it’s not like the Necro lacks the ability to use endurance. The problem is that the speccs that play into the attrition mechanic are worse off because they can’t do enough damage and everyone sees consume conditions as the best heal.
^^^^This, so much of this. I personally havent used a healing build so i can’t verify the number but it definitely makes sense. This is what necros should be doing in dungeons for the party, healing. Guardians apply the boons and necros heal the party and cleanse with Transfusion and other traits, staff and well of blood . Even otherwells that will keep the party alive like well of darkness are useful. Any necro doing this are the last to die when things go wrong, i know that is the case for me.
Ive been using pretty much only necro in pvp and im now rank 50. I can tell you right now, I don’t feel underpowered against other classes, my survivability, sustainability and mobilty all seem to work out for the most part. I just fought a tanky hambow warrior yesterday for probably 5 minutes in Niflhel, just behind the mid point to keep him from causing havoc in the fight there. During which I had enough sustain to pressure him to 40% hp (the guy just refused to die), had enough mobility and survivability to ignore him and check the mid point fight, get back to him to continue the fight then drag him to my teammates who had finally won the point and were able to finish him off. The entire time, i was in no real danger of dying. So do you still think the necro class is trash? Learn . To . Play . Necro
The pvp matches ive seen from other players in videos and in game are all locked into generally the same build idea, if it isn’t working, try something else, stop trying to do what other classes are doing, like Dirame brilliantly said, copying other classes like warrior’s face tank dps, and dodging when face tanking is on cd, will get you no damage, so don’t do it.
Glass cannon Necromancers are one of the few specs in PvE (Or high level Fractals if you please) that can survive better than most other classes, and this has nothing to do with kiting…
Necromancers have a glaring issue in the PvP areas of the game, that whereas other classes can escape from fights better with mobility and sustain in traits, weapons and utilites, while a Necromancer is usually forced to just take the hits and then die anyway when focussed… Their one defensive mechanic in the game, Deathshroud, does not scale with the opponents, and therefore, if you take a lot of hits, it is pretty much useless… Positioning is far less forgiving on a Necromancer than most other classes if you play roughly at the same level…
Thats about right but you should probably read my posts because thats the same thing i said.
So being able to apply a lot of conditions in a short amount of time in a condi build and keep applying, not to mention transfer a lot in the same amount of time isn’t sustainable enough, you guys also want direct damage that can be sustained as easily. If you want both, then go hybrid? I run both and I like it. Apply your conditions then use d/d, thats what the “target the weak” trait is for. If you can apply all the conditions, that is +24% damage. Thats the highest damage increase from one trait among all the classes. We can already gain might pretty nicely which raises both damage types, because of that, i think using blood is power in a pure power or condi build is a waste.
What the real concern here is can we stay alive long enough to sustain both? thats why the spec armour buff is so important, thats why an escape is so important, and thats why a ds stun breaker is so important to avoid being stunned and having all those conditions you have applied melt away and be healed over.
No matter what class, all the invuls, blocks and what not are useless if not timed correctly. I have a guardian, and i went into it thinking i will be immortal with all those blocks and blinds. I quickly realized that wasn’t the case. The players who use those only when they are about to die or against attacks they can dodge instead, end up losing to players who don’t.
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clap…..clap……clap. This is what i call praww!
Im not a regular on forums but i ve seen the guy around. Everyone says the class is kitten, I even heard it yesterday in a pvp match from a mesmer i was smacking around the map.If everyone is saying it, Anet for sure knows about the concerns but up until recently they hadn’t really done anything substantial about it. Meanwhile in every mode survivability is decent (warrior regens sometimes seem to be on a new level though). If our “figurehead” is saying it, other necros will start believing it and not try to make the class work.
Look at players like rennoko and choxie, brilliant necros, they make the class look overpowered sometimes, but yet people are saying necros are kitten then they roll a glass build to dungeons and not bother kiting.
Well I can see this thread is going well.
To OP: the second you mentioned the profession is viable in all game modes you lost credibility. You make it seem like every single Necromancer player is just somehow missing this magical little thing only you are aware of, which frankly comes off as arrogant at best.
You strike me as one of those that used necro for a few months, didn’t understand it then switched to warrior or some other “meta class”. In PvP like i already mentioned, when statted properly the class works pretty well and i don’t even need to be a minion master. I think my build is a little strange though and can’t be used in WvW but it works out pretty well.
In dungeons, this is where you see all manner of necro atrocities. You cannot be selfish and try to compete for damage this is actually how necros end up getting killed. We have only one Aoe damage skill, and conditions don’t kill as fast as a warriors Aoe damage skill, so why would you be wearing anything but full dire and not take weapons and utilities that help keep the party alive like well of blood, well of darkness, transfusion and spec armour for yourself . As for the elite, i find that the few necros i see tend to take lich, I’ve even seen flesh golems, forgetting that a big part of dungeons is mob skipping. This is why i always use snow leopard when dungeoning.
WvW can be a little difficult especially when roaming. It is really more of skill level and not putting yourself smack in the middle of 5 people and pray DS can bail you out.
PvE is PvE, every class can handle that fine, if you can’t then you will have problems in every other mode.
There are survivability issues, most other classes can move out of a fight when they need to but once we get into a fight we have to stick with it or try to run with spec walk, which doesn’t always work out. Flesh Wurm doesn’t count, because it requires you place it somewhere else before using it and besides, we all know how well minions work out in WvW.
So I’m saying, we already have an independent life bar that can be replenished fairly quickly in combat, all we need is a proper escape, foot in the grave as a minor trait and at least one good weapon based aoe damage skill. If these were part of the new changes, people will change their tune about the class.
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You may want to use traveler runes instead of quickening thirst, i think as necromancer you can make better use of the trait points. But i dont know about the 99%. Many necromancer i see use ether travelers, SoL or spectralwalk, though SoL almost never in spvp.
Yea i might have exaggerated that a bit, most necros do use something to get speed, but from my experience, if it isn’t permanent swiftness or the like (not just +25% from travellers), things can get very difficult. If no speed then stability with good condition damage, you hav to have one or the other or the class falls apart to other classes.
Anyone who thinks necros have good sustain in general is either a troll or doesn’t know the class very well. When you build up DS sure, you have a lot of health, but that isn’t what sustain is. If you trait to generate a lot of Life force (like spectral attunement, soul marks, and spectral mastery) sure you’ll have a ton of life force and some decent sustain. The problem is that by doing that you’ve neutered your damage, to get what other classes have by default, and you still won’t be that tanky.
This is further hindered by the amount of traits that work against the profession mechanic. It isn’t just siphons either, every single trait that procs when entering or exiting death shroud has the same problem. Either you spam in and out of death shroud to get a decent usage out of the trait, but sacrifice all of your survivability, or you don’t spam death shroud and just wasted multiple traits.
Saying necros have good survivability though is a joke. Every other class in the game has builds that will survive much longer in a team fight when focused because of dodges, invulns, blocks, high uptime aoe blind, and stability. All things necros lack. Considering team fights are what this game is balanced around, that is what matters (not 1vs1s like the op suggested).
Ive been running necro from PvP rank 1 to 49, and it is routine to last against two different classes (sometimes three) at the same time and pressure at least one of them. In the time I’ve been playing the mode 99% of necros disregard speed or depend on swiftness from war horn. The difference between my survivability when running Quickening thirst with dd vs without it is staggering. movement speed is almost as important as DS when it come to survivability.
Some necros even think dd is for power necros only, when it is actually for hybrids. All the invuls, blocks and all that doesn’t make that class any more sustainable than the necro. Including sigils and runes, count how many boon rips and control skills are possible on the necro in the same build.
In WvW you want to tell me you cannot stay alive in a team fight when you can pretty much choose to negate damage. If you try to do things like throw yourself in the middle of 5 people and count on getting out alive just because other classes can escape out of it, you are playing the class wrong.
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It’s called Death Shroud because it delays death
Wow i guess that makes sense
the problem is the class counters it’s own traits.
Could you please explain? Im not aware of contradictions.
The contradiction he is talking about is that the healing of life siphon traits dont work while in Ds making it harmful to trait into DS.
But i guess as main necro you should know that…
I just took it as it is, I never expected it to work in DS, besides that isn’t a contradiction, it works, but not the way you intend it to work. We already have several skills with life force gain, warrior like regen on top of that would just be overpowered. If that happens, every non necro would complain like they did with the old dhummfire trait. If you haven’t noticed, Anet forces you to pick either effective life siphon or effective life-force regen, never both. And if you do go both, your damage will be severely lacking.
Look where they ended up putting the hp regen into, the death magic line, why not blood magic? and then as a grandmaster, so you would really have to invest into it. They’ve pretty much told you if you want hp regen while in ds, you almost have to go tank. At least don’t expect to do amazing damage or have high hp and have the trait be effective.
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-9999
It’s called Death Shroud because it delays death
Wow i guess that makes sense
the problem is the class counters it’s own traits.
Could you please explain? Im not aware of contradictions.
it seems you dont really understand the survivability problems necromancers have. The thing is necromancers can be really tanky (with a full LF bar) but they dont have good sustain simply because Deathshoud is not sustain it is more like a temporary meat shield.
This is completely false, the sustain for necros comes from DS and we have so many skills that give good life force instantly, as well as some autos that give life force. If more builds paid attention to those then that would solve a lot of problems.
The problem with necros that have that sustain issues is they don’t know how to use DS. I was pvp’ing yesterday and the match was pretty much decided so i decided to watch a skirmish between a ranger and a necro. For some reason the necro who had full hp decided to waste his full life force to hit the ranger with life blasts. Unfortunately the ranger bailed probably thinking i would join the fight, if he hadn’t, the tnecro would have been in serious trouble. I see it all the time, necros that think well instead of me learning how to kite, I can just use ds and tank the damage.
Also necros with sustain issues don’t know when to get in and out of ds. Getting into ds only when you are about die is the easiest way to get killed. Life/plague blast is slow and damage builds will just out dps you, interrupt your heal attempt when your ds runs out and then finish you off. Getting out of ds only when your opponent makes it safe for you to get out of it is one good way to waste it.
Im not going to bother talking about ds sustain in pve because its really not much of a problem because using glass in pve is the sustain issue there.
I main a necro and i really like the class, it bothers me when necros blindly complain then you see what 95% of them do in game. The 5% I’ve come across are some really good ones though.
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Been playing Necro since around release, and i don’t have too many complaints about the class. Contrary to popular belief, necros survivability is not really a problem. Once you realize spamming only condis on everything won’t solve your problems, the class becomes extremely viable in every part of the game. However there are some situations where i think we should be able to handle better instead of going into death shroud and trying to tank our way out of trouble. Before i go into that, i must mention that i love the new changes, all of them in someway will greatly improve survivability, but they are only effective when you use certain traits and utilities which doesn’t help build diversity. So here are a few more minor changes that could really help other builds.
1 Make foot in the grave a minor trait, drop the stability duration to 2 seconds. A ds stun breaker is one of the things most needed since we don’t have vigor or an escape.
2. To replace foot in the grave, a grandmaster trait that applies a random condition to foes within a 600 unit radius, when dealt direct damage. Trait only works while in Deathshroud and has a cool down of 5 seconds. I mean really, the skill is called death shroud not tank shroud.
This complaint of getting kicked from dungeon runs, i dont understand it. I hardly ever get kicked when trying to join random dungeon runs. I can only recall that happening maybe twice in the 2 years i have been playing. In fact alot of the time i survive better than the others who are running other classes.
There was an instance when I had to solo the wraithlords crusher in arah p3 while the others ganked the champ because they had problems doing both at the same time.
There was another case where I managed to survive while my party got wiped while killing the spider queen in AC (those aoes are no joke though). These were pretty good players that i normally run with.
There are so many cases i end up dying because the party died or i didnt know the path.
In pvp I run dd/sf damage hybrid and i have no problem killing or at least holding other classes, aside the warrior. In some cases max of 2 at the same time .
In the Crown Pavillion, a very good zerk warrior buddy of mine, had problems killing multiples of those fire veterans at the same time. Its really easy to do for necros if running full dire.
I can stay here and tell you exactly how a condi engi has nothing on a condi transfer necro once you know how their build works.
If a thief jumps you, dont wait for your hp to drop before using ds otherwise it is too late. Dont wait to use your control skills on them either or they will just keep running away and wasting your time.
Run daggers, condis alone will get you into trouble if you cant keep yourself from getting melee’d. Those tiny weapons have saved my hide several times. You dont need to be a power necro to use them, you can run sigil of earth and spec into curses.
Whatever build you are using, speed is very important. Its probably the only other thing that can keep necros alive after ds. I’m always running quickening thirst. When i don’t, my chances of dying double.
Take snow leopard to dungeons, that stealth is glorious. Its the only thing we have that can keep up with the other classes when sprinting past mobs. It is also a life saving escape. Long cooldown though which sucks.
Do not go glass condi, glass hybrid, or glass anything, you will die alot. If we had a decent escape skill or an equivalent to endure pain then glass would be pretty cool.