Guild Wars 2

jportell.2197:

And warriors are no a better lock down class than mesmers.

And u did it. Now they will nerf warriors every patch! Muahahah!

SpeedFiend.4521:

On the other hand, we have Ellen Kiel who offers cheaper waypoints. The price of waypoints is determined by the Arcane Council. The Arcane council cannot agree on anything, resulting in the Inquest representative always being the tie-breaker. Yeah, do the math.

And still she offers em. So no other way, other, than approval of council. So, I guess, Inquest is behind Kiel now.

Guess, i was to late

xerokitsune.5094:

Why does the human want to care about technical research way above her ability to comprehend?

This one is kinda easy. Remember her promise? She would cut waypoints price for 4 weeks. Who you think controls em? Azura. She has no wealth or power to make such promises. So she made a deal with Azuras. She would research their problem (Thaumanova reactor), and they would cut prices, so she would have smth to offer. Quite easy.

Siphaed.9235:

There’s a reason these aren’t tabbed….: Bank Slots/Bag Slots.

Spend some in-game gold (about roughly 18-20g per bank section) or cough up the $7.50 worth of Gems, which is cheap for long-term account storage.

Already done it. Still need many donkey alts and even using pocket guild bank

Still would like some extra space for accountbound/soulbound items.

Heavy armor on light skins…its just so…wrong…

I so much this rng chests…. 1-st i bought around 50 crates for gems. Nothing from them. Now i bought 25 rich coffers. Nothing from them. So sweet. U rly motivating me to waste more gems on it.

Aneirin Cadwall.9126:

Being called a troll for having a sense of humor and posting something that was obviously not serious except to those lacking any common sense (or those who play thief; not mutually exclusive, however) aside…
:3

It wasnt joke :p. It was sarcasm.

Aneirin Cadwall.9126:

Sergoros.4398:

Not sure if trolling or just naive…

Are those my only two choices? We have these things called “jokes” where I come from. Pay extra-close attention to the last bit. If you read all of the forums, you’ll understand.

Then trolling. Got it. If there wasnt a big “sacrasm” in your msg, then you could have called it joke.

Aneirin Cadwall.9126:

Illusionary Thief
Cast time: Instant. Cooldown: 6 seconds.

• Applies stealth to itself between all attacks.
• Uses only cloak and dagger.
• Hits for 6,000 – 12,000 damage.

Balanced because phantasms do not have very much health, after all.

Not sure if trolling or just naive…

Darwin Iznang.1342:

I have finally fully embraced the GW2 version of the Mesmer and no longer pine for my lost GW1 abilities. But this post raises a good question, and it makes me think about what kind of things I miss doing in the old builds.

After all, if we get a new elite skill, I would rather see it be something simple and easy to use in all builds, including under-water combat. Another phantasm just doesn’t seem to be what I am missing.

So I would like to have the original Echo elite skill again. Use Echo, and the next skill you use is copied, and takes its place on the skill bar. Of course the cooldown would be long and fixed, and not based on the copied skills CD.

So I could have two iDuelist, two Chaos Storms, two Arcane Thievery, etc. I could see if your heal skill, mantras and signets are excluded, but it would make for some interesting skill chains.

Iwant. Though, cd should be of the skill copied, with some balance exceptions, but still. Would be good elite.

Also, opposite skill would be nice. Like mimic, but u copy not just range attk, but whole skill, used on you. And it also should work like aegis. Block 1-st dmg – copy of the skill, that dealt this dmg.

It could even be signet. Passive – aegis+ copy of enemy skill used – active – copy your next used skill.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Necromancer, Engineer, Warrior, Guardian would like to have a word with you Mr Phantasmal Mesmer.

Ask Teldo.1473 . He won 1v1 tourny. As engi. He roflstomped every phant mesmer he met even me -_-.

So yeeeah…. Wars and guards just sux at duels. Mby wars even need some tweaking.

Silver.9084:

I’ve been 1v1ing phantasm mesmers and finding it really hard to beat them outside a point, like in an open field 1v1.

What beats phantasm mesmer? And how?

Well..i had some nice duels with mine phant mesmer, im counting myself as quite skilled, 2200+ hours of playing phant mesmer…www, pve and spvp.

Phant mesmer is sure meta class for 1v1 duels in open field. But he is not alone. Good Bm rangers could give u rly big troubles. I fought 1 ranger for 13 minutes. He dodged my skills…I dodges his. If he fails – he gets quite big dmg, but he heals extremly fast. If i fail – i go invis and heal there. So it was battle with no end. Unless some of us fails enough times. After all it was ranger. But it was battle, where i had to use my all and read his every attk. So…Id say our builds is quite balanced. This ranger had only melee weapons. Gs and I dont remember his 2-nd set. But it was melee too.

Now…Condition engineer could give phant mesmer big trouble. Even without his ulti. Its just so hard to survive all his burning conditions. Fighting him is perma panic mode. He allways closing the gap and burning u to hell. Its mostly question of who outdamages whom. And even if its succes and he is downed…u can finaly catch your breath…but…WHAT?!!! Darn…u failed to notice his elixir…and now u have 20% hp left and he is 50%…. So id say same as ranger. Balanced meta build

And thief…Burst thief, if u fail to predict his burst and reacted to slow – ur dead. Even if u used blink on half hp….u already under pressure and its easy for him to finish u off. So…its another hard prof to fight with. IF mesmer make mistake – he is dead. And if u failed – u can try to run away for 2-nd try. Its a possibility too.

Good dodge condi thief is a trouble too. He just dodges everything and puts bleed and poison on you. And its to easy to run away for him. Ill say, if he wont risk, phant mesmer Can’t kill dodge thief. But with time – He can wear u down and kill. Though…he usualy so close to killing u, so he takes a risk and this is where mesmer can strike and catch him. Half balanced battle too.

Aarean.5398:

Theres nothing wrong with this minigame. Its good and the occasional lag spike could use a fix but why are people constantly complaining about achieves and dailies. Seriously stop just STAHP. If you want the win for daily and the achieves play it and get BETTER. I havent lost a match yet and usually win by 2-3 times the score of the next best player. Im sorry if your used to your class carrying you and am actually sorry if you have significant lag. But its a great addition, ITS FAIR AMONGST EVERY PLAYER, and its there to play. They dont expect everyone to win and especially dont cater to baddies. Again if you have bad lag im sorry but devs cant be held accountable.

Except that guards get aegis, as usual… And im kinda not sure…Can thiefs dodge 4 times at crab toss too? I seen guards using aegis, but i didnt count thiefs dodges )

Daishi.6027:

Sergoros.4398:

Daishi.6027:

…

…

I dunno what dearpy moves your doing, but if your losing 1v1 your doing something wrong. Stop tunnel visioning your mini map and get some competitive play in you. Lol jk

Tell you what let me 1v1 your pro friends as phant when I come back from my trip (18th or 19th maybe 20th since I may be out 19th and home late 18th) and I bet you I can no try win. If I can’t I’ll concede your point. But I have not lost a fight even against players from top teams, and I never try hard as phant. Only time I’d die as phant 1v1 would be shattering from habit or vs another phant build.

But until then I will not deceive others by condoning a easy mode 1v1 build for people to run around pretending they are good at dueling.

I had same opinion, untill i fought this guys. Sad, i dont have them as friends, just meet em once and fought some duels, but i have 1 decent thief friend, which one, i bet, could give u some trouble ).

Daishi.6027:

…

1) If u just spam phants whenever they on cd ignoring what class or build your target is…ignoring landscape…well…u not gonna beat pro enemys. Unless u fighting a warrior.

2) So ye. Also. If u would play naked – kiting would be even more hard! I said, that without skill u have no chance to beat pro enemy. Thats problem with mesmers today. Some newbies come, read that phant mesmers op and start playing them…and u know what? They sux. They sux hard, cause u still have to do your best, to kill your enemy. If he is good in meta.

3)Same as 2. Yes. Every class need it. But if u can’t dodge – u dead. Thats what im talking about. What the difference? We have to pop out our skills right. We have to kite right. We have to dodge right. Same as any other skillful player. Thats entirely my point.

Now. About my opponent. Yes. He have to kite my 3 phants. But! Isnt he playing other class? I dont remember having 10 sec invis dome, or perma pet, that can heal me if im downed..I dont even remember having burning condition for use on my mesmer… Every class have their weak and strong points, and u dont have to tell me, that enemy have to kite 3 phants. They have other skills. Some stronger then mine. And some weaker.
I fought pro rangers, pro enginers and pro thiefs. They fight me evenly. Some of em have imba dodge. Some of em have imba heal and imba crow. Some of em have such good condi dps, that I have to run for my life.

4)Well…same as 2 and 3.

5) half truth is truth enough U dont allways place your phantoms wrong. But when u do…it sux.

6) Good ranger, ele, guard or engineer could focus on your phants and just survive and heal for a looong time.

U will kill him. Eventualy…but he would come again and point would be his again. And he will be a winner by score.

Guess u didnt fight good thiefs, rangers or enginers, when u allways 1 step from death and only perfect managing saves your kitten from death.

Wars would have no chance. Yes. I dont c much chance for necro or ele. But well…thats how this game balance works. At least ele can easily diengage, or survive long enough to make your efforts futile. Ah yes…i would put guard somewhere between wars and eles in their chances.

Actualy, i dont get what the difference between skillfully attacking and skillfully defending. When u fight strong enemy – u should read his attk to kite him perfectly, 1-2 mistakes – and u fail and he roflstomps u. Arent u skillfully managing your phantasms? Arent u skillfuly kiting your enemy? Phant mesmer using as much as his class can give him. U have to manage your dodge. U have to be ready to press your stun breakers in right time. U have to place your phantoms right, or they die from aoe instantly. So… If u roflstomp enemy – its their fault. They have not enough skill. Also. Defending allways easier, than attking. But it leaves us with no burst. So its easier for enemy to disengage. Or to survive and cap the point. While u still trying to put your dps to work.

Ascending it is a final upgrade. U can’t upgrade it any farther.

Tzeentch backpack. Love it :>

Also…it changed main stat from toughnes to healing power. Thats where was my mistake. eh…Just transmuted it back on mine pvt.

Havana.8625:

I’m having the same problem. 26/27. Tried the 1st store in zone 1. Doesn’t help. Made it through all the way to the end of the raft. I don’t know what else to try.

Tryed zone 2 again. For some reason, after 3 hours of doing smth else, just completed my achivement in a spot I runned into many other times. But this time it gave me achivement. Eh… It was zone 2 btw.

jaka.9635:

also when you kill the 2nd boss/cage on the right in the water there is a log with 3 baubles on it.
Jump on it and you will get one point in the achievement.

ty…i bet i missed this one…dont remember any hand pointing there.

Dasorine.1964:

nah you just got to go there, in which case I’d check the first shop in zone 1 again I’d also check the path in zone 2 if you took the shortcut every time.

You don’t have to kill anything for it don’t worry :P

Never used shortcut in infantile mode -_-

And kinda did all zones 2-3 times already. Still no luck. Dunno what im missing -_-

Dasorine.1964:

did you wait to get warped after the frog king? you get a bonus round where you smash up a cart, theirs a feat there (and its the old beat up a car bonus from street fighter)

Sure w8-ed..finished bonus level too. Though im not sure that i killed all fighters. I might have missed some on the bridge.

Btw… I wasnt able to destroy cart in time. Could it be problem?

Dasorine.1964:

I’d check the store in the first world and the street fighter bonus round, other than that make sure you follow the path of hands through the zones.

You get feat for killing all fighters? Or when? Did all levels..moved exactly with hands…visited shops where hands showed to visit…Dunno what else i could have missed -_-

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

Eh…wy its so hard… Look. He can have only 25 trait points. That means, if this mesmer would go for focus (most effective imho). He would get put all 25 trait points in inspiration line and get: Best choice would be heal conditions on heal, warden reflection and sub trait for +15% dmg.

Now. He loses 15% dmg from 1-st trait line. He loses fury on phantoms. He loses 20% lower cd on clones. he loses 20% cd on sword. He loses 20% cd on gs.

That would be much more, then 20% dmg loss. im just trying not to overestimate traits to much.

Yes. U would say, that only my build so special, and there is some magical build, where 25 traits is enough to faceroll everything. Show it to me pls. Then ill check it and say how much u lose.

25 trait points are enough to do well enough to hold your own. You could still build a quite effective build around what you do have access to. What that build would be, I don’t know. My mes is not there yet. No, you will not be as efficient as an 80. But you will not be holding everyone else back, either.

I think, what implys to my mesmer, implys to any other class or build. U can get at least 20% more dmg with traits. Or survivability. Or smth else very usefull for you or your team.

What im trying to make u understand, that if player is 20% less effective, he would give 20% less then other 80 lvl teamates give. And thus, basicaly, being carried on.

The difference is not that great. I see nothing in any classes traitlines that will keep them doing that much less damage.

Remember also that your build is built around having those traits. A lower level may choose different weapons and different traits to maximize their usefulness and power at lower level. As I leveled my charas, builds changed several times to maximize my usefulness as I gained the ability to trait differently.

So…only mesmers r so special? Pls…ask your guildies. I dunno. Found someone who u think is a pro player with his class. Ask him how much weaker would be perfect 35 lvl of his class to perfect 80 lvl of the same class. With stats being even.

I bet his answer would be the same. Difference is Huge.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

Eh…wy its so hard… Look. He can have only 25 trait points. That means, if this mesmer would go for focus (most effective imho). He would get put all 25 trait points in inspiration line and get: Best choice would be heal conditions on heal, warden reflection and sub trait for +15% dmg.

Now. He loses 15% dmg from 1-st trait line. He loses fury on phantoms. He loses 20% lower cd on clones. he loses 20% cd on sword. He loses 20% cd on gs.

That would be much more, then 20% dmg loss. im just trying not to overestimate traits to much.

Yes. U would say, that only my build so special, and there is some magical build, where 25 traits is enough to faceroll everything. Show it to me pls. Then ill check it and say how much u lose.

25 trait points are enough to do well enough to hold your own. You could still build a quite effective build around what you do have access to. What that build would be, I don’t know. My mes is not there yet. No, you will not be as efficient as an 80. But you will not be holding everyone else back, either.

I think, what implys to my mesmer, implys to any other class or build. U can get at least 20% more dmg with traits. Or survivability. Or smth else very usefull for you or your team.

What im trying to make u understand, that if player is 20% less effective, he would give 20% less then other 80 lvl teamates give. And thus, basicaly, being carried on.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

SynfulChaot.3169:

That is positing that all players must use that particular trait. Everyone traits themselves for their own builds. Yes, a lower level chara will not have all 70 points to assign. A good player, though, will assign the points for maximum benefit and usefulness. Even a level 80 may not have those particular traits you are speaking of if it does not benefit their build.

Then show me lvl 35 build, that can’t benefit from more traits. And By adding all the other traits ill show you how much more effective he would become.

All builds will benefit from more trait points. But the difference will not be as great as you make it out to be.

Im using numbers to argue. Thats as easy as possible for you to understand. If his dmg is 20% lower, then, if all party would consist of low levels, mob would die 20% slower. Where i could be wrong?

What is this magic source of +20% damage from traits that is impossible for a lower level chara to get?

Eh…wy its so hard… Look. He can have only 25 trait points. That means, if this mesmer would go for focus (most effective imho). He would get put all 25 trait points in inspiration line and get: Best choice would be heal conditions on heal, warden reflection and sub trait for +15% dmg.

Now. He loses 15% dmg from 1-st trait line. He loses fury on phantoms. He loses 20% lower cd on clones. he loses 20% cd on sword. He loses 20% cd on gs.

That would be much more, then 20% dmg loss. im just trying not to overestimate traits to much.

Yes. U would say, that only my build so special, and there is some magical build, where 25 traits is enough to faceroll everything. Show it to me pls. Then ill check it and say how much u lose.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

SynfulChaot.3169:

That is positing that all players must use that particular trait. Everyone traits themselves for their own builds. Yes, a lower level chara will not have all 70 points to assign. A good player, though, will assign the points for maximum benefit and usefulness. Even a level 80 may not have those particular traits you are speaking of if it does not benefit their build.

Then show me lvl 35 build, that can’t benefit from more traits. And By adding all the other traits ill show you how much more effective he would become.

All builds will benefit from more trait points. But the difference will not be as great as you make it out to be.

Im using numbers to argue. Thats as easy as possible for you to understand. If his dmg is 20% lower, then, if all party would consist of low levels, mob would die 20% slower. Where i could be wrong?

Leo G.4501:

SynfulChaot.3169:

The only real difference is runes and sigils, which rarely make or break a build. Also, I don’t recall the last time I saw anyone run food in dungeons that was not MagiFind.

Runes, sigils and food are also downscaled. Stats from Traits as well.

I even believe you here. But what we get from it? Not much. Even if they downscaled, thats just stats, which we already discussed, to be even. The problem is % parts, that could slow party down easily. How? Easy example:

Here we have party of 5 80 lvl with trait +15% to dmg. And here we have same party of 35 lvls, that had no place for such trait. Only 1! Most likely they lack much more, but in this example it would be only 1.

So…what we have from here? They would kill all mobs 15% slower. Thats to easy to understand. Aaaand…it would make run not minorly slower, but 15% slower. Just 1 trait. I think, it is a good example.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

Em. -20% weapon cd. Remember? +15% dmg. No? U can have only some of it. U can’t have all vital traits. Traits is even more vital, then food or sigils/runes.

That is positing that all players must use that particular trait. Everyone traits themselves for their own builds. Yes, a lower level chara will not have all 70 points to assign. A good player, though, will assign the points for maximum benefit and usefulness. Even a level 80 may not have those particular traits you are speaking of if it does not benefit their build.

Then show me lvl 35 build, that can’t benefit from more traits. And By adding all the other traits ill show you how much more effective he would become.

SynfulChaot.3169:

swiftpaw.6397:

My advise: Gear up your lowbies. There’s a reason sometimes even I will turn my nose up at lvl 35’s in an 80 AC run, it’s because they’re in green, blue and white gear and haven’t invested in any traits. You really do drag a team down like that, and you can change it.

If you are lvl 35, I expect you to have geared up appropriately for the dungeon.
Go craft yourself a set of rares – armour and accessories, it’s not difficult or expensive, and it will mean you will contribute to the team in a fair manner.

Invest your all the trait points you have.

Asking one to ping gear is not something that should be done. But at the same time, if you are running a sub-80 in dungeons you should be running blues (minimum) or greens (greatly preferred) close to your current level. And you should be traiting properly as you level as well. If you are expecting others to play well, you should as well.

Sergoros.4398:

Leo G.4501:

But the point I keep commenting on is, the difference in stats between a lvl 80 and an on-level character inside a downscaled instance is mild-to-minimum when it was tested….4 months ago. As of less than a month ago, another change was added to decrease this difference further. To what degree is still unknown.

Wrong. Try it again. Gear check is already a yesterday argument. Right now we argue difference that exists, cause 35 lvl have no acces to all traits, food, runes, sigils and etc.

The only real difference is runes and sigils, which rarely make or break a build. Also, I don’t recall the last time I saw anyone run food in dungeons that was not MagiFind.

Em. -20% weapon cd. Remember? +15% dmg. No? U can have only some of it. U can’t have all vital traits. Traits is even more vital, then food or sigils/runes.

And food…yep. For speed runs its fine to use mf food. And this point is where i lose, cause im usualy only one, who using not only mf food, but also +10% dmg and +10% resistance.

Leo G.4501:

It’s rather that, the argument is supported but you’d just handwave it away with a “Nuh Uh!”

Empty post again. Mby some quote for proof? Or to bothersome for ya?

Leo G.4501:

I hope you know your grammer makes it difficult to understand what you’re trying to say…or to take it seriously anymore, for that matter.

Last straw for ya? When u can’t support your argument with anything solid. U just keep pushing on gramar? Right. Thats how u should do it.

GabGar.4962:

Sergoros.4398:

GabGar.4962:

Seriously all those “elitists” (I prefer call them bad and unskilled players) looking for all 80s for AC, you should be ashamed, period, learn to play guys.

U should be ashamed of your inability to read counterarguments and just keeping your line, when fault of it was proven many times.

Wrong, yours are not arguments, just poor excuses to keep your bad attitude againsts others, attitude you get from another game I bet.

Counterarguments? No, you just say the same old cool story about gear and how you need an 80 to run “without problems” a LOW level dungeon. Read yourself…

Wow. just wow. Gj. Nothing to say. And now pls read my posts. Cause right now u just proven, that u read nothing.

Leo G.4501:

But the point I keep commenting on is, the difference in stats between a lvl 80 and an on-level character inside a downscaled instance is mild-to-minimum when it was tested….4 months ago. As of less than a month ago, another change was added to decrease this difference further. To what degree is still unknown.

Wrong. Try it again. Gear check is already a yesterday argument. Right now we argue difference that exists, cause 35 lvl have no acces to all traits, food, runes, sigils and etc.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

1-st side even accepted, that lowlevels would slow highlevels down. Now only straw that left for 1-st side is they magical “there is no diffrence, if highlevels playing as fast as slowpokes.”

I did accept that there is a minor speed difference. Again, this is not accounting for speed runs but normal dungeon clears.

Well…srry if my wording wasnt right. But thats exactly what i tryed to say.

U accept, that there is difference, and now, basicaly, we arguing the size of this difference.

sostronk.8167:

Leo G.4501:

sostronk.8167:

SynfulChaot.3169:

sostronk.8167:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Speed runs require everyone to be at peak performance. Everyone can agree on that. A sub-80 can run dungeons just fine, but they will not be setting speed records, which speed runs attempt to do.

The complaint is not that sub-80s are being excluded from speed runs. It is that they are being excluded from any runs. If you are straightforward beforehand that you are doing a 80-only speed run, then you are not being elitist. If you are excluding them from any time you do a dungeon then yes, elitist.

Oh ok so you understand it will take a sub 80 longer to run a dungeon than an 80. Thats kind of the whole thing. I can only do dungeons so many times before I just want to do a quick run and get my tokens/gear/rewards. A sub 80 will slow down this process so I guess thats not such a bad thing for me to not want a player to slow down my game?

The difference in time of a straight run between equally skilled players is minimal enough to not be very noticable. With a speed run, though, where much content is skipped and avoided where it can be, every little bit, every little second helps. Many speed runs are not only level 80 only, but restricted to particular classes geared particular ways. In a speed run, that is acceptable. Extending those restrictions outside of speed runs is not.

Ah ok. So in this case, all I have to do to not be an elitist is type “speed run” and im clear of your condemnation. Easily done.

Are you sure? If you’re not linking gear, excluding professions, etc to optimize your speed run, then you’re nothing but a nub speed run. You okay with being labled an inefficient n00b?

I was thinking about using a word like “Fast run”. But I don’t know. The impression I got from synful was you just had to type “speed run” and then you were exempt from having to play with sub 80s without being labelled an elitist.

Actualy it helps. Yep. U use speed run group option in lfg and its now a given, that u would skip trash mobs and do only rewarding bosses/champs. U dont even need to argue. U just point out, that your lfg had “speedrun”.

-guys help! I can’t pass this mobs!
- U shouldn’t have joined then! If u can’t pass this mobs – ur not fir for speed run.
- Ok. Srry. Didnt notice speed run option.

Rly helps.

Leo G.4501:

Well the best thing would be to simply ignore posts like his. All it does is circle around the point. No one is providing evidence that it’s faster or slower, if you hit harder or weaker, or if it’s all the same. Going on hearsay just perpetuates ignorance so the thread is just better off closed.

No Evidence? Rly? Try to read this thread. One side showed, that stats r balanced. Other side showed, that even though they balanced, lowlevels still lack to much. And that is where we right now.

1-st side even accepted, that lowlevels would slow highlevels down. Now only straw that left for 1-st side is they magical “there is no diffrence, if highlevels playing as fast as slowpokes.”

Leo G.4501:

-Points back to his previous posts-

Have you read them? I doubt it.

Yep. I did read it. SO?

Leo G.4501:

Sergoros.4398:

GabGar.4962:

Seriously all those “elitists” (I prefer call them bad and unskilled players) looking for all 80s for AC, you should be ashamed, period, learn to play guys.

U should be ashamed of your inability to read counterarguments and just keeping your line, when fault of it was proven many times.

Or maybe this is the definition of troll. Accusing of not being able to read when he himself refuses/is incapable of…

Care to prove your point? I have yet to see any counterarguments for mine.

Right now it is u who trolling. Adding nothing to discussion and accusing others in trolling. To obvious.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Leo G.4501:

Sergoros.4398:

U should be ashamed of your inability to read counterarguments and just keeping your line, when fault of it was proven many times.

Or maybe this is the definition of troll. Accusing of not being able to read when he himself refuses/is incapable of…

Don’t sink to that level. Keep your chin up and keep arguing for the side of common sense. They can only bait you if you let them.

He is already way below mine level.

GabGar.4962:

Seriously all those “elitists” (I prefer call them bad and unskilled players) looking for all 80s for AC, you should be ashamed, period, learn to play guys.

U should be ashamed of your inability to read counterarguments and just keeping your line, when fault of it was proven many times.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

Also. About doing dungeon few times. He still unexperienced player. Untill he would get 80 lvl. Play with it for a while. Learn most of his class tricks in this exact dungeon, only then u could call em experienced. Before it, he is still a beginer.

Getting to level 80 is not some magical gate to learning. Learning a dungeon takes running the dungeon. Nothing more and nothing less.

Learning the dungeon is one thing. Most likely, (dont forget, that player is a newbie and still learning, and cause of it he would allways miss some parts) after 2-3 runs, he would learn most of the dungeon. But to learn, how he can maximise his efficiency in this dungeon is another thing. he would need to try some skills and utilitys. Change his weapons. Try and retry all the traits (and every 5 levels he would get a new one). And etc and etc. Thats a lot to learn. He would understand His Own Class only at 80 lvl, when some time passes, and he would finaly find his “perfect build”. Only then he would be full fledged player. Before that, he is just a child among adults.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

Mayby, between each pull, u take your time and explain every little thing about next mobs and encounter? And sure u not taking this time into account, when counting time u wasted on dungeon? Also, most likely u doing full clears of dungeon. So u doing it as slow as lowlevels. It might explain why u c no difference. Im doing speedruns. So, for me, gap is just to big.

Also… As I said before, im fine with low lvl alts, they not as bad, as newbies. And newbie would allways lack experience. And skill without experince is just not enough.

This is assuming that all sub-80s are new to the dungeon. Not all are. Also, I believe I have stated that there is no problem with people doing 80-only speedruns so long as it is stated beforehand (aka when you post the LFG).

I remember this. But. It shows the difference. If they lack in speedruns => they lack in normal runs too. Its just harder to notice, cause they hiding on your back.

Also. About doing dungeon few times. He still unexperienced player. Untill he would get 80 lvl. Play with it for a while. Learn most of his class tricks in this exact dungeon, only then u could call him experienced. Before it, he is still a beginer.

Hm….now, that i mentioned full clears…as i remember…all low levels, that did “just fine” felt like that in full clear dungeons, where u dont even have speedrun option. Yep. Looks like u c difference only in speedruns. In other options… They just hiding to good.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sub-80s do not need to be carried! And acting as if you are doing them a favour by taking them along is firmly elitist. I’d prefer a unskilled player over an elitist any day as at least they are not judgemental kittens.

Sure. They dont need. Without 80 lvl they would probably do this path in…hm…2 hours instead of 40 min with 80 lvl. They would clear all mobs. Die to them many times. And finaly theyl do this dungeon naked. While they slowing me down, Im also speeding em up. Thats what i call carrying. Though. It would be better for them to do this dungeon without 80 lvl. This way theyl learn more about this game and their class.

The time difference is never that great if players are equally skilled. And if you assume lower level charas are less skilled regardless, you are doing neither yourself or the community any favours.

I run with groups with sub-80s frequently, and I have never seen the level of fail you are attributing to all lower level players. Never.

Mayby, between each pull, u take your time and explain every little thing about next mobs and encounter? And sure u not taking this time into account, when counting time u wasted on dungeon? Also, most likely u doing full clears of dungeon. So u doing it as slow as lowlevels. It might explain why u c no difference. Im doing speedruns. So, for me, gap is just to big.

Also… As I said before, im fine with low lvl alts, they not as bad, as newbies. And newbie would allways lack experience. And skill without experince is just not enough.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Knowledge of characters and classes does not come from level. It comes from experience, experimentation, and research. Sub-80s are well capable of all three.

U can’t use your weapon good, when it changes everyday. Every 5 or so levels theyll get new trait and even some utilitys. They need to adapt to dungeon, since they new there. And etc and etc. Even at 80 lvl there is still things to learn. And u saying they perfected their class at 35 lvl? Nonsense.

You can still use the weapons and your utility skills just fine, even below level 80. And if you need a long time to acquaint yourself with new traits then you are not a skilled player.

And anyone that thinks that they have ‘perfected’ a class is someone who refuses to learn anything new. And that is bad.

Not much time to learn basic mechanics. Much time to learn how to do em most efficient. Much time to know every little thing about this weapon and little tricks of it. Same with utilitys.

And last line. EXACTLY. Your "just fine’ is far from perfect. As i said. Even at 80 lvl u still learn new things about your class. So u can’t say, that newbie, that only been few weeks in a game, would be a skilled player with his class. Average as max. No more.

To tell the truth…. I used fast casting nearly from the start of the game. Cause its faster….but..cause of it i didnt know, that mind stab of gs is a targeted skill. For around a month i thought that its random sword comming from the ground and its just another chaotic part of a mesmer…

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

If I take them – good for them and they should be thankful that they so lucky. If not – thats how world works, not all ppl and not allways want to waste time on carrying someone.

Sub-80s do not need to be carried! And acting as if you are doing them a favour by taking them along is firmly elitist. I’d prefer a unskilled player over an elitist any day as at least they are not judgemental kittens.

Sure. They dont need. Without 80 lvl they would probably do this path in…hm…2 hours instead of 40 min with 80 lvl. They would clear all mobs. Die to them many times. And finaly theyl do this dungeon naked. While they slowing me down, Im also speeding em up. Thats what i call carrying. Though. It would be better for them to do this dungeon without 80 lvl. This way theyl learn more about this game and their class.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Renegade.6325:

A lot of nonsense in this thread.

If you havent even got level 80 on your character, you do not know your character well, in almost all cases.

Knowledge of characters and classes does not come from level. It comes from experience, experimentation, and research. Sub-80s are well capable of all three.

U can’t use your weapon good, when it changes everyday. Every 5 or so levels theyll get new trait and even some utilitys. They need to adapt to dungeon, since they new there. And etc and etc. Even at 80 lvl there is still things to learn. And u saying they perfected their class at 35 lvl? Nonsense.

Sorcerer.3095:

People should chill…sub level 80s are not making your run taking much longer (if it’s even noticable) if they know what they’re doing (i.e. an alt or has run it before). For most dungeons knowledge (of how the paths are run) -> skill -> level.

IMO if you don’t advertise for 80 only beforehand, you don’t have the right to kick someone below 80 if they are high enough for the cap, 35, 45, 55 etc

Alts is fine in most cases. Yep. They still being carryied. But not as much as newbies in dungeons. And if it is not alt…its a newbie. With all the learning curve to do. He WIll be troublesome.

Blackmoon.6837:

All of these arguments just remind me of how arrogant people can be. No compromise, no working together, just do it ‘my’ way or gtfo.

Sigh*

No one wants to play for fun? Or wait, let me guess, some of you are defining fun as the ambitious rush to achieve the highest accolades (so you can impress others I imagine). That’s fun to you? Get the top stuff the fastest way so you can be on top “first”, then what?

I always thought fun in video games was a repetitive thing that came merely from the imagination – think back to when you were a child. The simplest things could get you going for ages.

Now it’s all about ego; selfish bullkitten.

Who said we can’t play for fun? Sometimes we let them in as extra challenge for ourself, for fun…or by charity reasons. Its just not given. If I take them – good for them and they should be thankful that they so lucky. If not – thats how world works, not all ppl and not allways want to waste time on carrying someone.

Usualy it happens if we have enough free time. But when u have only 4 hours to do everything… u can’t afford to slow down.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Must have in your build, maybe. Not all builds require all 70 points to be effective. And low level charas should prioritize the skills that have the most benefit.

I showed u what i have. I believe, other classes and builds would say the same. I dont think u would find a pro player who would say “And this trait line i choose, cause had nothing better, and i can do great without it.”

Again, yes a fully traited 80 will be more effective. That has never been argued. All we are saying is that is that a sub-80, if traited right, is still a great boon. Those missing traits will make it a bit weaker, but it will not make such a difference that they are useless or not worth partying with.

U Can’t be more wrong. Wy would i choose weak char over strong char? He would lack many vital skills, which would make him way weaker. I showed u traits, Losing even 1 of em makes char way weaker. And he would lack more than one. How could u argue after that? Its like choosing handicapped for basketball team. Yep. Best of the best handicapped would pwn worst non-handicapped ppl u could find. But it doesn’t make any difference. Handicapped would still be bad choice.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

Evidence = he have same stats and mayby (I dont think low levels have all utility’s open) same utility’s.

But he lack = experience (he is skilled somewhere, but if it is not alt, then its his 1-st char and he is newbie) + traits + food,runes,sigils + every level he grow weaker.

I think your evidence kinda not proving anything. And my experience with low levels only proves it to me. At best they “not shine”. Doing everything just fine and thats ok. But usualy its dead body on the ground “rez me”

Recently while running AC story to help a few complete strangers I saw a level 38 (or so; sub-40 anyways) engineer outperform the level 80 warrior in the party. Level honestly means nothing.

And with all of this, you forget that not all 80s are in full exotic/ascended everythings.

Recently I did dungeon with 59 lvl war and most of the time he was dead on the ground. Among all low lvl chars i played with. 95% of em was dead on the ground. Im showing u what they lack and wy they weaker. U answering with real experience “but sometimes they good!!!!!”. Thats wont do it man. Thats not how numbers work.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

-20% cd. +15% dmg. -20% cd that stacks with weapon cd. Another +15% dmg. Sword trait allows u to use frenzy 20% more often. And etc and etc. All traits is must have in my build. Even losing 1 is high fall in efficiency. Fury for phantoms again… So much good skills, u never have enough traits, to grab all the cookies.

Must have in your build, maybe. Not all builds require all 70 points to be effective. And low level charas should prioritize the skills that have the most benefit.

I showed u what i have. I believe, other classes and builds would say the same. I dont think u would find a pro player who would say “And this trait line i choose, cause had nothing better, and i can do great without it.”

SynfulChaot.3169:

Sergoros.4398:

GabGar.4962:

You call leechers those players who are playing at lvl content, jeez you are only reinforcing the point of those who call “elitists” unskilled players.

Nope. They leechers, cause they joined lvl 80 team. They should play with lowlevels, like themself, or be thankful for the highlevels, who given them a helping hand. They doesnt bring as much as their team, so lvl 80 is carrying em. Easy as that.

If the person knows the class, the difference is small. If a person was so useless as to be contributing nothing, yes I would agree. But a skilled player can contribute greatly.

Anyone who thinks, despite all evidence to the contrary, that all sub-80 charas are leechers are elitists.

Evidence = he have same stats and mayby (I dont think low levels have all utility’s open) same utility’s.

But he lack = experience (he is skilled somewhere, but if it is not alt, then its his 1-st char and he is newbie) + traits + food,runes,sigils + every level he grow weaker.

I think your evidence kinda not proving anything. And my experience with low levels only proves it to me. At best they “not shine”. Doing everything just fine and thats ok. But usualy its dead body on the ground “rez me”

Zenith.7301:

You can pretty much dodge every attack of his with vigor up. Every attack of his is both staggered and heavily telegraphed. The autoattack is rough but even then some people can help rez quick if someone can’t handle it.

Autoattk+ all dodges+ u need to attk him all this time = One of this attks would hit ya. Usualy its his autoattk, that manages to hit ya. And if u make even one mistake (for 80 lvl u could make more) – u dead. If even 80 lvl have so much trouble, then low level would be constant “rez me”. Also dont forget his crystal, which not every class have counter for.

Zenith.7301:

Sergoros.4398:

Zenith.7301:

Depends on how much time I feel I have. If I’m in a hurry, only 80’s.

It also depends on the dungeon. I will not do TA or SE with lower levels, simply because the mobs really aren’t tuned that well for lower levels (they may be DOABLE, but it’s such a horrible hassle that it’s not worth it imo). CM either — Riflemen autoshots (not the snipes with casting time, I mean the autoattacks) already can 2-3 shot lv80’s.

AC, CoF, HotW, and CoE I will do with lower levels.

Eh…with this hug mechanics coe is now faceroll dungeon. Sniff.

Thus why I will do it with lower levels. Even with no hugs, if you learned your dodges and brought Vigor boon to CoE you were fine.

No way. Without hug, they would die instantly. Honestly, even for a full 80 lvl group, alpha without hugs is a Huge Challenge. I can kite him for a while, but, eventualy, he would still get me. I mean path 2/3 alpha. Path 1 is easy.

Zenith.7301:

Depends on how much time I feel I have. If I’m in a hurry, only 80’s.

It also depends on the dungeon. I will not do TA or SE with lower levels, simply because the mobs really aren’t tuned that well for lower levels (they may be DOABLE, but it’s such a horrible hassle that it’s not worth it imo). CM either — Riflemen autoshots (not the snipes with casting time, I mean the autoattacks) already can 2-3 shot lv80’s.

AC, CoF, HotW, and CoE I will do with lower levels.

Eh…with this hug mechanics coe is now faceroll dungeon. Sniff.

GabGar.4962:

Sergoros.4398:

GabGar.4962:

DeathPanel.8362:

GabGar.4962:

And no, nobody is saying a lvl 80 is a bad player just for the level, we are saying THOSE who ask for a group of only 80s for low level dungeons are unskilled and bad players.

Well what you are saying is wrong.

Those that ask for a group of only 80s want to get through the dungeon quickly with the least amount of problems.

If somebody thinks the low level dungeons are too much trouble to get them done, well, then they need to be carry, again my stament is true: “only 80s groups” are made by those who think make things on level is too hard.

They want lvl 80 not cause its to hard. But cause this dungeon would be to slow with lowbies. U rly have troubles with understanding this?

You are the one having trouble understanding than we can do low level dungeons at the min req lvl at the same speed at any level. You are the one having a hard time undertanding the mechanics of the game.

Wrong. I did prove my words. Your only proof is the fact, that lowbies and highlevels have same stats in dungeon. But that changes nothing. They still lack traits and experience.

And…as been mentioned…they also lack sigils, runes and food.

Ah yes…thx to another player here…we have another nail in “same stats theory” coffin. After every path in dungeon we getting level up. Usualy. So… After every path, gap in stats between 80 lvl and 35,36,37,38 lvls would grow. Cause he still would wear 35 lvl equip.

GabGar.4962:

DeathPanel.8362:

GabGar.4962:

And no, nobody is saying a lvl 80 is a bad player just for the level, we are saying THOSE who ask for a group of only 80s for low level dungeons are unskilled and bad players.

Well what you are saying is wrong.

Those that ask for a group of only 80s want to get through the dungeon quickly with the least amount of problems.

If somebody thinks the low level dungeons are too much trouble to get them done, well, then they need to be carry, again my stament is true: “only 80s groups” are made by those who think make things on level is too hard.

They want lvl 80 not cause its to hard. But cause this dungeon would be to slow with lowbies. U rly have troubles with understanding this?

Leo G.4501:

Sergoros.4398:

Weapons. Not traits. In example. Weapon traits give u lower cd. Clone trait gives u less cd on clones. Warden reflection doubles the dmg of any projectile i reflect with warden.
Healing mantras giving u ability to heal allys. And etc and etc. Wy should i even mention it? Like someone said… l2p and know it yourself

Ah yes, the weapon traits. Granted lower cooldown on things like the Prestige or Chaos Storm is nice, it’s hardly a trait someone needs to be able to swap to that weapon and use it for what effects it has. I was unaware Warden’s Feedback had any effect on the damage reflected projectiles had, besides retaliation, I thought it just made things reflected. However, if such a trait is pivotal, it’s only a Master trait and can be obtained by a lvl 35 character. Healing mantras, on the other hand, are a gimmick at best.

There are a few traits for mesmer that really turn their effects up, but they are hardly going to net you so much of a difference that a lvl 80 mesmer will completely overshadow.

-20% cd. +15% dmg. -20% cd that stacks with weapon cd. Another +15% dmg. Sword trait allows u to use frenzy 20% more often. And etc and etc. All traits is must have in my build. Even losing 1 is high fall in efficiency. Fury for phantoms again… So much good skills, u never have enough traits, to grab all the cookies.

GabGar.4962:

Sergoros.4398:

Heh. Remembered 1 thing, thats gone unmentioned in this thread. Aggro. Mob usualy attks players with highest dps and highest armor. What can we get from it? The lowbie…who survive better, cause his dps is crap and he have no armor.

So yep, High level, who practicaly carrying a leecher on his back would die more, then leecher, who pretends, that he is doing smth. Well…Thats just another side of the coin. Imho high levels still have no right to be downed more often, than lowbie -_-. But average 80 lvl might be trapped such way.

This is the perfect example of those who need to be carry by a group of 80s because they found the low level dungeons “too hard”.

You call leechers those players who are playing at lvl content, jeez you are only reinforcing the point of those who call “elitists” unskilled players.

Nope. They leechers, cause they joined lvl 80 team. They should play with lowlevels, like themself, or be thankful for the highlevels, who given them a helping hand. They doesnt bring as much as their team, so lvl 80 is carrying em. Easy as that.