Guild Wars 2

Kyven.7514:

I don’t want my access to a SP or POI blocked because a waypoint is contested and there’s a septillion mobs waiting nearby to nom my face off until the others on the server can be bothered enough to go recap the village. Would create even higher demand for certain classes and even lower demand for others, leading to more imbalance and more QQ and on and on..

I see this as more of a problem with map completion (a reward/carrot) than with the interesting mechanic that is being proposed. I’d rather it not be the case that interesting mechanics have to be put aside because they’ll interfere with reward access. I think the game should be primarily about fun with rewards put into supplement the already fun activity. If rewards are getting in the way of introducing fun and interesting mechanics, then something is wrong with the reward system. That said, there is no reason the invasion objectives can’t scale based on player population in the current map.

For me personally, I find the game more fun when I’m not paying attention to the carrots and just exploring the world and encountering events as they unfold on my journey.

digiowl.9620:

Once more a pile of bodies on the reactor bridge?

I hope so! In beta it was really something when we took down the fire elemental.

What I like about underwater combat in GW 2 that differs from other MMOs is that control was designed well, it didn’t feel like a encumbrance to enter the water, and that you had unique skills to play with underwater. I think it would be tragic for them to abandon it instead of work on the problems, which I see as:

- Enemies can be tightly packed together in some zones, making for frustrating combat experiences that rely on motion.
- Not all professions are created equal. Some are enjoyable underwater, some are acceptable, and some are just terrible. Builds can influence what you find enjoyable. For example, I like a condition damage mesmer underwater, but would probably find a berzerker mesmer boring
- There are not enough interesting utilities for underwater play. Some professions get neat variations to their utilities underwater, some do not. Some lose too many utility choices when entering the water.
- Aqua breathers are a fairly useless invention that just add more gear to acquire. Aqua breather shouldn’t be a slot, just a cosmetic item based on your helmet. You get you helmet’s stats/runes underwater

Broadicea.8294:

Take a break from the Living Story crap for just a month and put two of those teams you have on actual, quality bugfix duty. Polish the parts of the game that have been pathetically broken since release. Make it feel like more than a beta test.

It does look like September is a break month, at the very least. As SAB is largely a project they can add to incrementally with a smaller team, and fixing Tequatl to be challenging is a quality of life change, not a living story arc. I hope they continue with this trend of ramping up World Bosses to deal with zergs, fixing issues in WvW and sPvP, adding some new dyanmic events; because it will hopefully allow them to give us a Living story arc that has much more content, a story that is more fleshed out and told in game, and a story that is connected from week to week.

[quote=2804638;LanfearShadowflame.3189:
Each of your points hold merit OP, however point one is flawed slightly. By having the environmental effects (bundles, kits, w/e) become the ‘necessity’ to winning, you negate our weapons and skills.[/quote]

I took the suggestion more charitably and read it as that these environmental weapons would be necessary, but not sufficient for success. Meaning there could be other areas of the encounter that we’d put to use our other skills if we so desired. Such as protecting the environmental weapons, making certain buffs more crucial to success, and of course direct damage.

Erasculio.2914:

Remains to be seen what is ArenaNet going to do when the grinders have a full Ascended set (weapons, armor, accessories), turn and ask the developers, “What’s next?”.

Level cap increase. Look at all that level 90 gear out there. Level 90 Masterwork is better than level 80 ascendant now! And then the skritt in player character clothing go out and dutifully collect the new shinies.

ricky markham.8173:

now i’ve been jerked around so much i see no connection between many of the story lines especially sab how does it relate to the story or was it put there to show us that an ending happened and we are going to the next living story.

Yes, that is the line they are feeding us, that this was like a chapter ending. What I heard was, “We really didn’t plan this out well. Two weeks is putting a lot of internal pressure on us to release content and to do so we need easily expanded content in the game like SAB to give us more time to work on more impressive Living Story arcs. We really shouldn’t have started out on the Living Story until we had enough of this filler content in place to give us the time we need to tell quality stories with fun content that changes the world, but we’ll press on anyway telling these disjoint tales that have little lead up, exposition, and don’t meet the standard of quality we promised in the manifesto.”

I don’t know if it’s pride, poor management, or just lack of care; but they need to re-evaluate the two week release schedule for something that produces better quality and permanent content.

Wukunlin.8461:

What was the problem with people getting top tier stats quickly?

People that have as their main drive character progression and consume that content quickly became bored. This represented a sizable portion of the player base as it appears to be a common goal for MMO players, who were drew to GW 2. Arena Net’s profits were in danger and they probably received much pressure from their publisher to address the problem despite having a clear artistic vision that was against gear treadmills. People who loved Guild Wars small vertical progression (or would prefer none at all) were largely left wanting for another MMO as a result.

Unfortunately, I’m one of those who doesn’t want any vertical progression, in the minority of MMO players, and as a result will probably not have an MMO that is more about exploration and changing the world; than about progressing numbers on a character sheet. Everquest Next seems to be based heavily on the GW 2 manifesto. However, I imagine they too will succumb to the pressure of the majority.

Merkator.6351:

Hey guys. I took Guild Wars 2 off for the Summer. Now that Fall is arriving (and I’m getting bored of Skyrim again) is GW2 worth returning too?

What do you want to do? I’ll tell if this game provides it.

Tyrecian.3456:

i was quite pleased to watch Scarlet’s portal minions tear through NPCs found in the zone i was in. The portal was there with a Veteran and he and his friends just ate through a variety of mobs, including yellow named mobs that are neutral, such as deer. It was actually an immersive moment where i found myself wanting to save the creatures.

What you saw were the enemies using AOE attacks on players that happened to hit the local wildlife. Thus, the local wildlife attacked the invaders. It wasn’t done as a goal of the encounter nor to develop connection to the zone. It was done through chance.

Regardless, I hardly consider it very immersive or zone changing for invading forces to sit there, not performing any objective whatsoever, and merely waiting for players to come by to engage them before they take any action. Even if they intentionally attacked the local wildlife in the area I wouldn’t consider this any of the above, as the zone will still offer the same collection events or defend this objective events despite a more threatening foe attacking the area. The zone needs to react to these invasions as they are supposed to be threatening. The way it reacts right now is to carry on business as usual and maybe some bunnies die accidentally during the invasion.

While you might be “quite pleased” with considering happenstance attacks on the wildlife zone changing, which is really what we’re talking about here; the people at Arena Net who produced the manifesto video are definitely not pleased by this, if we are to take their criticisms against other MMOs seriously. As a reminder, you can watch their criticisms here (1:25 mark):

Erasculio.2914:

I’m actually extremely pessimistic about EQ Next. […]

Sounds like you’re more pessimistic about the MMORPG genre, than EQ Next specifically. It’s hard not to be, considering how quickly GW 2 abandoned its artistic vision. I hold out hope for EQ Next, but the comments on the “contested content” round table make me think the majority of MMO players are interested in more of the same, and not anything new for MMOs.

Morrigan.2809:

Colin did say that they want Ascended to be the last tier- thank the six!

Last tier doesn’t mean the last gear grind, unfortunately. If they raise the level cap they will likely introduce gear for whatever the new level cap is, For example, there could be Ascendent gear that only level 90 players can wear if the cap is raised to level 90. Hopefully they cut it with this vertical progression already. I’m tired of refitting my character (who still doesn’t have all ascendant accessories).

Breeding is not the same as love or even sex. Two characters can love without breeding. So, yes it is possible.

Essence Snow.3194:

SirMoogie.9263:

I’m excited for events that can fail. Now all they need are epic consequences for failure.

Well if the new rewards are of the same chances that we have come to know then failing will most likely only result in a missed out rare, a green or two, a blue, and a few silver. In other words no real consequence at all.

Right it was a hope/request, not a comment at how it is likely to be initially.

I’m excited for events that can fail. Now all they need are epic consequences for failure.

I have been fairly critical of Arena Net’s lack of attention to the open world, or when they do give it attention during the LS that it is through substandard content that doesn’t tell a story or affect the world like some of their better dynamic events.

This change excites me and I thank them for revisiting the challenge of their world bosses. If Tequatl actually started to slowly invade Sparkfly Fen after we fail the event, it’d be even more awesome of an encounter than it sounds like already. An actual invasion where outposts are captured, and the enemies actually attack NPCs and aren’t just sitting there. I hope Arena Net does do this eventually as I think what they described in their manifesto about a world that changes based on our actions would separate them more from other MMOs. They just have to figure out a way of having our actions through dynamic events be more impactful, perhaps by having them last longer (days or weeks) or having greater consequences on the zones, like said invasion.

Knote.2904:

This is what the big events should be like, there needs to be difficulty and teamwork, and the rewards should be in BEATING the encounter, not making the mob spawns and abominations drop loot so people ignore the dragon to farm the mobs or anything like that.

Agreed. This cannot be emphasized enough at this point.

I’m also against zerg play, but I disagree with one of your points.

Knote.2904:

1. No meaningful difficulty will ever be present in a fight.

I don’t think this is so. With thoughtful design and other constraints on encounters, even world bosses can be challenging if they give enough tasks for players to do that are necessary for event success. Proper enemy scaling that includes new skills (or new enemies) that are better at dealing with massive amounts of players that don’t pay attention will also help. Making it so player attack don’t affect the bosses unless certain conditions are met will further add strategy to the encounters. Limiting zone player cap size can also help (i.e., the size needed before creating an overflow). Unfortunately the overflow system does not retain the state of the zone, so this is an undesirable option for many reasons.

I agree the events aren’t challenging ¹, but I don’t think this to be an unsolvable problem, just an engineering problem in need of a solution. Whether or not Arena Net has the creative and technical resources available to solve it, I can’t say.

¹ – Though some do fail even with a zerg, like the risen priest of grenth event.

Vayne.8563:

First of all, I don’t think people log into the game just to chase carrots, unless they want to or are into it. There really are other games out there if people want to play them.

You’re forgetting the sunk-cost fallacy. I’m not enjoying the game, I still log in. I have sunk money and time into this game, despite my instincts telling me to stop supporting their model. It’s rough when you’ve invested time into something you wanted to succeed, yet watch it stunningly morph into something that contrasts heavily with your vision for it. It makes it tougher to leave as you hold out hope. I loved the idea behind Guild Wars 2 when I heard their manifesto and thought many of their dynamic events supported that vision, not completely, but enough that it looked like a system they could really build upon to fulfill their goals of a living world with consequences that was outlined in the manifesto. However, after playing the more recent dynamic events added to the game and hearing their thoughts on dynamic events in general ¹, I’m not so sure they have that vision anymore:.

¹ -

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

We are listening. Not only to what you’re saying but also to what you’re not. The very first living world team actually did the thing some of you have called for. Some 40 or so permanent events were added around the game in our very first content update. They were met with little interest or fanfare. Granted, Halloween may have stolen the show. But those events are still in the game today. I’ve seen very little reaction to them, however, positive or negative.

I also feel a bit let down on the release schedule, and while I understand good content takes time to develop, I don’t feel that settling for subpar content in the meantime is acceptable. Colin has expressed that they need the “fluff” content to give their living story teams more time to develop the living story behind the scenes¹. I agree that this is one solution to the problem, another being abandoning the two-week schedule for more development time. Things like festivals and SAB are easy to add to, and would free up resources for more substantial content. However, I think they should have focused on this content more initially to provided the buffer they need to develop more interesting tales, more events that feel like they have consequences on the world, and more activities to spread players out; instead of bunch them together in zergs. I would not have minded if they postponed Living Story development upfront,and just released easy to augment content they could add to at anytime, if it meant we received a greater, better quality Living Story release half a year later.

¹ – http://dulfy.net/2013/08/05/gw2-colin-johanson-addresses-temporary-content-concerns/

Rainbow Sprint.3215:

I personally think people are just too used to expansions. They’re used to having all this content at one time available. So anet tries to do something different than expansions and nobody likes it because it’s not the general way of releasing content.

Actually, no it’s not that we need an expansions worth of content (though it’d be nice as it’d give players multiple options to branch out into rather than just zerg the only new thing added). It’s about the quality of the content being released compared to what we had at release.

The LS is still a new system and anet still needs to work out the kinks in it. What players like about it and what players don’t like about it. It’s not fair to say it’s all bad.

I think their plan going forward seems like it could solve the problem. That is they plan on building base level, repeatable content which they can easily add to (e.g., SAB, festivals) to give their team enough time behind the scenes to make more substantial content releases. The problem is they’ve jumped into telling a Living Tale before they have enough of this base level content ready. As such, when they try to advance the story it is disjointed and quality suffers across the board. Scarlet’s story could have been told through the game world, added to over time with new events telling her tale, and her invasion could have been better integrated into at least one zone (i.e., it actually affects that zone). Her invasion lacks the polish events had at release, and could have used more time in development.

I hear a lot of people say the LS is awful, […]

It isn’t awful it has a list of quality issues longer development time would weed out.

So if most of the updates are good and well received, how is the living story a bad medium?

People have different standards. For example, I like the game advertised in the manifesto. Scarlet’s invasion departs from their manifesto in almost every way it can. Most of their criticisms Arena Net leverages at other MMOs in their manifesto apply to many of the events they’ve been adding in the Living Story content.

- They give you quest text directing you where to go
- The enemies are not actually performing the actions the quest text says they are
- The enemies are just sitting there waiting to be killed
- There is no story lead up to the events, they just appear
- The events don’t have consequences on the area, in fact the zone behaves as if an attack isn’t happening
- When failed there are no consequences
- When successful there are no consequences
- Shortly after completion the events happen again making one’s action feel worthless

I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment. I fell in love with the dynamic event system at release as the chaining ones usually tell a little story about the zone you’re in. I signed on to Guild Wars 2 based on the manifesto and its promises of player actions affecting the world, and I feel the dynamic events at release mostly accomplish this; some to a lesser extent than others.

However, I can’t say this about the dynamic events added in Scarlet’s Invasion, Queen’s Pavillion, Secret of Southsun, or even Flame and Frost (their best release in my opinion, despite how long it took them to complete it). These events were so disconnected from the zones they occurred in. There was no lead up, such as NPCs discussing the events and then performing some action that triggers a dynamic event; once the events started they didn’t affect the zones as the enemies just sit there waiting to be killed; the enemies aren’t actually performing the actions the dynamic event says they are; when the event concludes there are no effects on the world. Essentially, the zones as a whole act as if these events are not going on.

These events do not meet the quality of other events in the world and they definitely are not what was promised in the manifesto. If the two-week release schedule is causing content to be released that is substandard, it needs to be reevaluated.

I agree with this sentiment. When I first heard about the Living Story I was excited, and Flame and Frost as a whole was a pretty good content update, it just took a while to get out there. However, after experiencing the latest content I think it’d be better if you took your time with releases as the quality is going down hill. Most events added with these releases are uninspiring, do not affect the world, and seem meant largely to please farmers. I think when adding any major event to the world you should look to your manifesto and think:

- How can we explain the lore behind this event in the zone before the event starts?
- What states should the zone be in before the event occurs?
- How should the event affect the zone after it starts?
- How should the zone change after the event succeeds/fails?

Scarlet’s Invasion seems so disconnected from the world, and the zones operate as if she isn’t there. I realize making an event of this magnitude connect to just one zone takes a lot of work, which is why I think you should reconsider the two-week schedule. Take your time and deliver the quality content other MMOs do in longer periods of time, like new zones with new dynamic events, new dungeons, and new storylines.

Or focus on old zones… Invasions would be a perfect vehicle for the dragon champion world bosses. The dragon champions could start with an invasion event, then be summoned/vulnerable after it’s minions are defeated. If we fail the first invasion, it’s control over the zone widens, if we succeed we eventually push back to the dragon champion. If we fail the dragon, the invasion pushes out again. Repeat until the dragon champion is defeated.

They’ve expressed interest in doing more significant, permanent content updates ¹, but from the tone of that response I get the feeling that their two-week release schedule is the problem. Their solution to the problem is to introduce more repeatable content like festivals and the SAB. By having this content, which is easy to build on, it frees up development resources for more significant stories, zones, dungeons, etc. At least that’s the hope.

I’d prefer they just focus on this type content for now so that they can craft better stories, dungeons, and zones later; than do what they’re currently doing. Presently their story advancing content is disjointed, unpolished, needs more time to develop, and needs more time to be properly integrated it into the world so it feels like doing these events impact the world.

¹ – http://dulfy.net/2013/08/05/gw2-colin-johanson-addresses-temporary-content-concerns/

Shpongle.6025:

EVERYONE i know loves SAB

Consider me the first one you’ve met that doesn’t. I prefer updates that add more lore, zones, dungeons, and dynamic event sequences that affect the world; unlike Scarlet’s Invasion. However, these things take time and many people like the SAB, so if it helps the developers create more meaningful content by releasing small updates to SAB here and there; I’m all for it.

However, around 85% of the gw2 population HATED Liadri and HATED gambits because they were so hard and stupid and poorly designed

I liked it. I didn’t beat her, but I liked the challenge she added.

They are slowly adding world to SAB as, like the festivals, it gives them content they can develop slowly over time, release to keep players busy, and then take away for further development. By having this content they can hopefully have more time to develop more substantial content. Living story content has been getting less polished in my opinion with the new two week schedule and I hope that by spending more time on these easy to develop, reoccurring events they can work on delivering us the things I’ve come to expect from other MMOS; new questlines (or dynamic events in Guild Wars 2 parlance), new epic storylines actually told in game, permanent zones, and permanent dungeons.

Pacifica.9576:

To add insult to injury, the next release on the release page appears to be super adventure box…

Actually this is great news. They should keep the box in, add to it slowly as it’s easy to develop new content for. They can use this time to refocus their efforts on the game they promised in the manifesto. I am by no means saying this should be the only content added, but from a living story standpoint they need more time to develop than what they are doing now.

Astasia.1459:

GW1 had very few content patches. Nearly all of their content development went into those expansions. That may be preferable to some, but not everybody.

You ignored a really big caveat in my reply. I said if they continue to develop lackuster , quantity over quality releases they should reconsider the two week release schedule. No one wants shoddy content, no matter how quick it is served. Scarlet’s invasion breaks with their manifesto’s promises on quest/dynamic events in every way possible:

- It gives you quest text directing you where to go
- The enemies are not actually performing the actions the quest text says they are
- The enemies are just sitting there waiting to be killed
- There is no story lead up to the attacks, they just appear
- The attacks don’t have consequences on the area, in fact the zone behaves as if an attack isn’t happening
- When failed there are no consequences
- When succeeded there are no consequences
- Shortly after completion the attacks happen again making one’s action feel worthless

By Arena Net’s own criticisms of other MMOs this is shoddy content. If they continue in this fashion they will lose those players, like me, who signed on for their vision of telling a story through dynamic events that affect the world.

I don’t even participate. I just go to the zone, do one closing, and then do the normal dynamic events that actually have build up, enemies attacking objectives, and consequences. I wouldn’t even have to take up a slot if some genius didn’t decide to wall off story progression behind 6+ invasions.

Astasia.1459:

Have you even stopped to think how that would be possible? How much work that would require? […]

Realistically they may have been able to pull that off for a single small zone in an extended patch schedule (it’s basically redoing the entire zone), but to do that on 13 maps is more work than what goes into an expansion pack.

Good point. They should have focused on one zone when introducing invasions. I would have chose Frostgorge Sound or Blazeridge Steppes. Make the invasions spawn if the dragon events fail. It was originally described that Tequatl could fail and would unleash his minions on the zone. This doesn’t actually happen. Invasions are the perfect vehicle for a dragon taking over a zone… Provided they actually affect the zone and aren’t just loot pinatas waiting there to die.

If these two week releases are causing them to release substandard content, they need to seriously rethink this decision. They could have had one quality zone invasion, instead they chose for 13 manifesto breaking invasions that don’t affect the world prior, during, or even after the event. Other MMOs take more time before content releases, but they are releasing whole zones worth of content in this time.

I signed up for GW 2 because their manifesto appealed to me. No quests telling you where to go, no enemies just sitting there not actually doing the assault the quest giver says they are, and consequences for failure. This invasion is just a quest text of “Scarlet’s forces are attacking X”. When you go there they are doing no such thing and are just waiting to be killed. Succeed or fail, the outcome is the same.

Edit: Just so it’s clear. I’m using “invasion” as a general term for this type of event. I don’t mean Scarlet invades on dragon event failure, but the dragon’s minions rise/crystallize/fall from ice shards and attack/capture outposts throughout the zone.

This is a sound idea for fixing many problems with the game. If implemented I hope it drives Arena Net to create more inspiring dynamic events like those we had at release, and less of those events meant for farming we’ve seen as of late.

Ltomato.8649:

Am I the only one who thinks that this is a problem? Am I the only one tired of zerg farming being by far the most profitable method of playing? Am I the only one who wants to actually have fun again?

No. This patch really hit home for me the idea that the open world is not to be the living breathing world they described in the manifesto, but a farmer’s playground. Scarlet’s Invasion is just so disconnected from the zones it occurs in it makes me feel sad playing it, but some genius decided they’d hide story progression behind 5 of these things so I just plan on doing a little bit of it and then doing the real dynamic events in the zones to pass the time.

By disconnected I mean there is no lead up to the event in the zone in question it just happens. It’s almost as if we got a quest telling us where to go and the horrible mobs were just sitting there not attacking anything despite the quest saying they were ¹. When completing the event there is no change tot he world, succeed or fail.

1 – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35BPhT-KI1E#t=1m55s

Fringilla Vigo.8594:

I hope you are right about it. And to some degree they did some changes towards open world with last update, but its more “hey, lets zerg that map. Hey, lets zerg another one on next hour”.

It’s so unfortunate that the latest offerings in the open world are such a vast departure from what they were going for, and succeeded in many cases during the initial release. From the manifesto¹ they were against quest text that directed players where to go. They cite as an example a quest would say centaurs are attacking a village and that when you go there the centaurs would just be sitting around. Their promise from the manifesto was to have a living world where you see these attacks starting and actually happening. Contrast that with what we have now. We get quest text telling us Scarlet is attacking a zone. When we arrive her minions aren’t actually attacking anything, they are sitting there like loot pinatas waiting to be killed.

The manifesto continues to discuss how this world is our and our choices have consequences, cause and effect. If we stop the centaurs the village is saved, if we don’t it actually gets destroyed and needs to be recaptured and rebuilt. Contrast that to the invasion where nothing happens to the zone if we fail, and nothing happens to the zone if we succeed. The zone as a whole acts as if the invasion isn’t going on. Merchants still greet you as normal, dynamic events going on still operate as if there aren’t aetherblades attacking nearby. The whole experience lacks cause and effect.

If invasions are going to be part of the world going forward they have to start tying them into the zones better than they are. Like other dynamic events, the zone needs to tell a story why this invasions is starting, there should be events that lead up to the invasion starting. Once the invasions start they need to affect the areas where enemies are attacking, and the enemies need to actually be attacking something with a purpose. If the event fails, there needs to be visible consequences to the zone.

I think part of the problem is that Scarlet’s Invasion targets a random zone, making it impossible to do this in a reasonable time frame. They should have introduced invasions in one zone, like Frostgorge sound, and tied it to the story there. For example, if the Claw of Jormag event fails it starts a invasion of ice brood on that map. then players can decide if they want to fight Jormag as a world boss, or fight Jormag’s invasion forces. Cause and effect. Real decisions.

1 – https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto/

Galen Grey.4709:

Its not about cold numbers. I’d rather have just 5 players on a map working together playing dynamic events together, having fun then have 500 players on my map zerging after gold. The problem is not getting players on a map, thats easy, the problem is to get to engage in a variety of activities and thats like impossible cause at the end of the day its an attitude issue. People like rewards more then they like gameplay thats the core issue.

I agree. My best moments in game are doing dynamic events with 5-10 people. Going much larger than this causes combat to become problematic (hard to see enemy tells, challenge is removed, etc.)

Xae Isareth.1364:

^
I’m kind of curious about how do you make a world fully evolving based on player choices in DEs. What happens to the other choices which players didn’t choose? If its a dynamic event, it can’t just be ‘hold on for a few months until we design the next part’ kind of thing. […]

It doesn’t need to have a stopping point. It can be cyclical, like existing dynamic events. Let me illustrate some solutions to the problems you raise by describing how I would have handled the Zhaitan story. Upon reaching cursed shore players would be greeted with the series of dynamic events they have now (perhaps a bit more connected than they are). Instead of leading to an invasion of Arah to open a dungeon, the event chain would culminate with the players claiming Arah as a fortification in their attack on Zhaitan. At this point the zone would be in a state for Zhaitan to start an invasion. When the invasion started players would have to defend the territories they claimed to reach Arah from Zhaitan’s minions and Zhaitan himself. Some would have to focus on clearing out risen across the map, some would have to man Pact artillery to stop Zhaitan himself. If the players succeed Zhaitan would flee, they get a rewarded, and they can keep the benefits they reaped by holding the territory. If they fail, they have to reclaim and rebuild the lands lost to have another invasion occur.

While holding the territory a new dynamic event would become available called “Aid the Pact Researchers”. This would be a slow dynamic event that’s progress would be tracked over months, and could even be artificial, like many of the living story meters have been (i.e., they grow based on time, not actual player participation). The goal of this event would be to gather resources for the researchers to figure out a means of destroying Zhaitan.

When Arena Net was ready to move the story on with Zhaitan they would allow the help the researchers event to complete. Now after successfully completing the invasion event the researchers would no longer ask for materials, but give instructions on their findings and how to kill Zhaitan. Instead of fleeing this time Zhaitan would stay (land, or do something really awesome to start this new content, I’m not a game designer). Players would then have to perform the actions necessary to kill Zhaitan. Those that participate in this event get a cutscene that moves the story forward, and then are transported to post-Zhaitan cursed shore. Post-Zhaitan cursed shore is one that no longer requires claiming territory or clearing invasions. Instead it deals with the fallout of the Zhaitan attack and restoring Orr.

Players who were not there for the kill Zhaitan event (and even those who were) will have the option to relive it through a Fractals of the Mist portal available in Cursed shore that takes them to the zone as it used to be, including Zhaitan invasion and kill Zhaitan event.

This allows for story development, a living world, and still allows people who missed it to participate. It requires a helluva a lot of work, as you basically need two copies of a zone; but this is not unfeasible as it is expected that MMOs will add zones overtime. This is doing essentially the same thing, but the new zone being added is the current version of an existing zone. Much of the infrastructure is already in place to handle multiple instances of zones too (overflows are basically new instances of a zone).

If you want to add choices to huge world changing events like these, you just ensure that the choices the players make is made early on before development starts on the post-event world. You then introduce the cyclic events structure that keeps them busy until the content is ready to be moved forward. How the election was handled is one way of doing this. We probably won’t see the new fractal until the end of this year (if at all this year). Unfortunately, there are no events in the game to remind us that there was indeed an election and that it had consequences.

Vayne.8563:

Actually, I think Anet is adding stuff to lots of areas of the game, including the open world. The new content has open world events occurring all over the place, on a daily basis.

The new open world content is also subpar to much of the old open world content. It’s basically Rift, a design for dynamic events that they strictly wanted to avoid according to their manifesto. They wanted actions in the world to have consequences. Compared to other, better dynamic events; the new events lack build up (i.e., you just get an announcement an invasion is going on, no exposition, or reason why the attack is on that zone), they don’t affect the world while they are in effect (i.e., the zone behaves exactly as it does when there is no invasion, and the portals don’t even pose any danger to the zone as the mobs just sit there waiting to be killed like loot pinatas), and they have no consequences on the world when completed successfully or unsuccessfully (i.e., succeed or fail the same result on the world occurs).

The new events are nice in that they have multiple objectives, and can be failed even by large groups of players; but they sacrificed much to get these invasions out in hurry. They really need to be taking more time with their content releases as they lack the polish the game had at release for much of the other dynamic events (barring annoying bugs that prevented completion of some events).

Xae Isareth.1364:

I think that’s a terrible idea really.

1. If stepped into the middle if a long chain of DEs which took months, you wouldn’t have a clue on whats going on.

This happens in Guild wars 2 dynamic events chains too. They handle it, usually, by giving optional dialogue with the NPCs involved with the chain, or couriers who relay information about the event. NPCs in the area also contribute by telling you the general story of the area, which provides context for the event.

2. It would take months for you to experience a particular piece of content. Let’s say the Claw of Jormag took 2 months to complete, it would mean that if I missed the fight with the Claw, I’ll be waiting for 2 months to do it again.

Not enough is known about their model to conclude that you will miss great story changing events, or how world bosses will be handled in such a system. Your concern is a valid one, but even if it’s true that you could miss the world changing event it’s interesting that they are trying to make a more lively world that will grow even if you are away. That’s kind of intriguing for some people. Maybe not you, fair enough, but most MMOs currently cater to people like you. Few cater to people who want a living world.

Besides, the biggest problem with DEs isn’t that they aren’t fun or well made, it’s more so that they simply aren’t rewarding enough. In a MMO, content is often judged on rewards, so having a long DE chain which doesn’t reward you with much still doesn’t help one bit.

MMOs with gear goals are judged based on reward and fun. An MMO that made gear easy to obtain through multiple means would have to thrive on giving interesting/fun content, and delivering new content when that grew stale. An MMO with really good gear, but no enjoyable activities would fail, so in the end they all need fun and engaging activities to perform. Of course, everyone’s mileage may vary. I can stand doing a farming cycle just once before I crave new dynamic events. When ember farming was being done I only tolerated it once before I decided it was out of character to fail the event, and I wanted to push it forward. Most MMOs thrive by introducing hard to obtain, desirable gear as it provides something to work toward while they develop new content.

WatchTheShow.7203:

Now we have Scarlet, a cartoon villain that goes around from zone to zone attacking them for no purpose, but to get players to kills lots of mobs and champions for loot. She isn’t claiming objectives; she isn’t putting any one in danger, let alone the zone as it continues to operate as normal during her invasion as if nothing is going on. The portal places are random and without thought out design. They have basically traded the beauty of dynamic events for Rift.

Oh I know. It doesn’t make her attacks any less meaningless that she is psychotic, in fact it raises more questions than answers. See my post here for why I think this dynamic event is substandard compared to what we had at release:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/speech/Are-we-trading-Dynamic-Events-for-Rifts/first#post2673307

Seras.5702:

This is what I expected. For Tyria to actually evolve and for new DEs to replace old ones as the effects of our and NPC efforts were felt. Alas, it isn’t so.

And I think they said they would do this at one point, but somewhere along the line it seems they got the idea the players don’t want this. It could be the case that they don’t, or that the way things were incentivized led players into activities that suggested they don’t want this. Either way, I hope they realize that their DEs were what made Guild Wars 2 unique.

It’s unfortunate their free weekend is during this living story update and that new players are going to come in thinking all GW2 offers is rifts. This may away some old Rift players into joining, but anyone who paid attention to Guild Wars 2 manifesto, or current videos about the dynamic event system, will be confused on why most players are chasing rifts and ignoring the other events in the area.

IndigoSundown.5419:

I believe that the team that did Queen’s Jubilee and Clockwork Chaos are the same, just as Sanctum and Politics were produced by the same team. If that’s true, then each team would be responsible for 4 weeks of content across two releases. This would give each team 12 weeks between the end of their current cycle and the start of their next cycle. I believe a new zone is feasible in that time frame, especially if resources not in one of the teams is producing part of the package. I guess we’ll see.

That’s a good counterpoint. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

I’m also willing to give them time. I think their plan has potential to make the game great. While it’s not there yet, it’s better (to me) than anything currently on the market. Ommv, of course.

I agree.

Is the Order of Whisper on vacation?

It’s troubling that the intelligence arm of the pact didn’t see any of this coming. You’d think they’d take great interest in a genius sylvari, find out she’s crazy, and then maybe keep an eye on her.

Velimirius.7018:

DEs just need more consequences and progression, atm they are just too boring.

And yet the latest DEs added for Scarlet’s invasion completely lack consequences are routine and boring, but are receiving rave reviews from most players. MMOs with gear goals will always drive most players to the most efficient means of obtaining those goals. I have gear goals, and still do this boring routine content as a consequence, not because I like it or want it, but because it is the most efficient means of achieving those goals. I am part of the problem, despite my conflicting desire not to be.

What I’d prefer to be doing is exploring new zones, encountering new stories through dynamic events, and aiding a suitably sized group of other players (no more than 25, rough estimate) in similar tasks.

Savoy.6824:

EverquestNext is touting that it will be able to do the things Im asking for. If they pull it off I know where Ill be going.

Exactly. When I read the Everquest Next previews I was sitting there aghast that they didn’t mention Guild wars 2 anywhere, and were touting this as some new system. However, seeing how Arena Net is choosing to spend their resources lately has me wondering if Everquest Next will be the place to go, as the resources are being spent not on what I consider Guild Wars 2’s most unique feature, but on adding easily farmable events with little story or consequences. I fell in love with Guild Wars 2 during the beta crossing events like the one I described in the original post. I feel Arena Net’s ambitions for two week releases may be too much, and that it is causing them to split their teams too small to deliver new content like full zones with new and interesting stories told through events.

I’m willing to give them more time though as it was relatively recently they announced four living story teams. This gives each team two months for content creation and delivery. Unfortunately that is still probably too little for MMO zone development, a process I imagine requires around 3-6 months for a well sized team. However, if they can’t deliver, I’d much prefer they return to a traditional release schedule for MMOs. I understand this carries with it the risk of losing players who digest content rapidly, but if the content churned out isn’t up to snuff with other MMOs that take their time between releases, they are going to lose out to those other MMOs anyway.

IndigoSundown.5419:

There have been forum requests for large-scale invasions (like the invasions in Rifts). Posters have asked for events that affected entire zones. Posters asked for content that required some coordination. Posters asked for all of this.

I am for this if done in similar spirit to those of existing dynamic events. You can have large scale events, invasions, have exposition, and have them affect the world. We can have our cake and eat it too, it just requires more effort. It’s just jarring that the team that brought us The Guild wars 2 Manifesto¹. Has settled on delivering Rift’s mediocre dynamic event system.

All of that said, consequences for failure would be good; however ANet might then face a similar issue to the one faced by Rift, with players unhappy that areas in the zone they wanted to be in were inaccessible. TW solved this by having the invasion despawn after a short time.

A problem, but not one that requires despawning. I am not a game designer, so I leave the ultimate solution to them, but one method is only to have one invasion at a time and scale the reward as the zone remains invaded. This scaled reward should be less than the reward for succeeding at the event.

A better, and more dyanmic event related solution, is to have the invaded zone just operate differently than the uninvaded zone. Instead of having ogres asking to collect pets, have dynamic events spawn for rescuing enslaved ogres. Renown hearts would receive different objectives, and skill points might have to change their events as well. This would require a complete zone overhaul and is a lot of work, but also not unexpected from an MMO content wise. Some MMOs release new zones every three months or so. This is basically taking an old zone and redoing it so it has two states.

Should invasions path and attack? That’s a great idea. However, of all the bugged events since the game went live, how many involved events involving pathing that had blocking bugs? Maybe that’s something that can be built into the permanent versions.

Most pathing dynamic events are fixed and that bugs will exist for content is not a reason against introducing it. The invasions certianly have bugs related to them.

Motive? Scarlet is as fruity as a nutcake. Mad villains are a staple in some genres, though in fantasy, not as much as in something like super-hero comics. Some of the Joker’s schemes make as little sense as Scarlet’s plans, unless you remember that he wants to make people suffer, especially the B.

Even if she is fruity as a nutcake, despite being well educated. It isn’t provided as information during the event very well. Let alone as an explanation for why she is attacking the wildlife in a particular zone. The Joker is insane, yet he still robs banks. He has desires to fulfill and has deranged tactics to fulfill them, some of which include robbing banks in a deranged fashion. Scarlet has no discernible desires. She opens portals over the heads of wildlife so robots can kill them.

That also does not explain why the pirates, dredge and flame legion go along with her. Maybe she is supplying them with their tech? Maybe she has led them to believe that she has a master plan that they think makes sense.

Right, this is a big hole to fill. Completely insane people don’t get invited to colleges and they don’t gather many allies.

In most stories, the motives for the villains come out at some point. This often takes time. In Prophecies, we don’t learn the Vizier’s true intent until very late in the story (the last mission). With Scarlet, sure, she’s crazy. However, why is she crazy? What makes her tick? Where is the exposition of her internal dynamic? Maybe that stuff is in this patch somewhere. Maybe it isn’t.

And all of these motives, should they come out, will be hidden when this phase of the story finishes, yet the invasions are said to continue. Without exposition during the events, I’m afraid they will be as random as Rift’s rifts.

¹ –
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35BPhT-KI1E

This is also not a problem with just this patch, but dynamic events in the prior living story releases as well. Flame and Frost had random portals appearing with dredge/flame legion that had to be sealed to stop their forces. Secret of Southsun had random champion instigators appearing without discernible reason connected to the event that had to be quelled to stop the uprisings. The Ancient Karka Queen attacks for no discernible reason, but at least summoning her is an involved, multi-step process. The Queen’s Pavillion had legendary bosses appearing with some story reason, but there was no interesting chain of events to spawn them and they are largly just loot pinatas.

Having some dynamic events like these is fine, it gives those who want to farm something to do. The problem is when you continue to develop content like that in lieu of more interesting dynamic event content.

Scarlet’s invasion gets somethings right. It can be somewhat challenging given the time constraints¹ and has multiple objectives that spread players out. It also gets players to the old zones, but they still don’t do the activities there as the activities there are completely disconnected from the invasion, the invasion is timed, and those other activities aren’t as rewarding. However, these successes were not made without removing much of what makes dynamic events above and beyond other game’s offerings. Basically, we traded getting new and interesting dynamic events like we had at release for the rifts from Rift.

¹ – Not challenging in the sense that we have players making use of interesting skill combinations to take down foes, just that it can be failed even with a zerg if events are not simultaneously accomplished.

At request of Fabri the Suspicious, a suspected Order of Whispers member, Innkeeper Klement needs to retrieve dwarven artifacts from False Lake to prevent the local pirates from potentially unleashing trouble on the area. As players we dive into the lake to collect the artifacts guarded by skelk, sharks, and other dangers. Upon collecting them the Innkeeper thanks us and returns to the inn. Should you follow you’ll learn that one of the artifacts found is of Stone Summit make, an old summoning stone that should be dealt with. Unfortunately, the local pirates followed you and have other plans for the artifacts. Should they succeed, they use the artifact and get turned into incinerated husks and you as the players must defeat them to save the inn. Should the pirates fail, you are sent on an escort mission with the artifacts to Vanjir’s Stead. After successfully escorting the caravan the Asura from the priory who helped with the escort offers to aid is disposing of the summoning stone, as it is “risky business”. If you follow the asura you find out that to destroy the artifact we must kill the demon bound to it. The demon, Lord Ignis, is summoned and we as the players must defeat it to complete this chain of events successfully. Doing so spawns a new merchant

This is an example of one of my favorite and memorable dynamic events in Guild Wars 2. It’s what I think dynamic events should be. Events that have a story, a chain of consequences that can lead an event to multiple outcomes, characters that exchange dialogue with each other to help provide exposition, characters that allow for players to interact with them to provide exposition should they have missed the story so far, changes that mean something to the world (different enemies appearing, new merchants, destroyed buildings… even a bear skin rug made me smile after helping a norn hunt a veteran arctodus). Other things I enjoy that this event doesn’t have are multiple branches that start in separate areas, but join for an epic conclusion (e.g., Ogre Wars). I also think events should be challenging, but that is not the point of this post.

I’d like to contrast these events with the events added in the latest patch. Scarlet’s Invasion does have story, but it’s largely disconnected from the invasion events, and when this phase of the living story passes it will be gone completely. The invasion lacks purpose, as none is provided during the event or prior to it for why Scarlet is attacking these zones. The only information provided through the UI is that she is indeed attacking them. When in these zones she isn’t gathering resources, attacking important objectives, or even killing people (intentionally). In fact the zone acts as if she isn’t even there at all. In Blazeridge the ogres still want you to help them get pets despite the aetherblades teleporting right outside their doorstep and the outposts carry on their day to day business despite steampunk creatures attacking the local wildlife in their vicinity. Without these elements Scarlet’s Invasion comes off as just cartoon villainy… evil for the sake of doing evil (while being highly inefficient about doing that evil). Without these elements the event lacks effect on the world both prior, during, and after the event is completed. Without these effects on the world the dynamic events in Guild Wars 2 lose what sets them above and beyond what other games offer in their versions of dynamic events, which are largely just portals opening with monsters coming through in random locations across the map. The portals must be sealed to stop the monsters. (cont’d)

I was just going to post my concerns about this after seeing the latest update.I’m also concerned that the latest game updates are introducing content that is fairly meaningless storyline wise, and just a vehicle of getting mobs of players to kill mobs of creatures for loot. These events don’t affect the world in any meaningful sense, and in some cases don’t even try to make sense.

Now we have Scarlet, a cartoon villain that goes around from zone to zone attacking them for no purpose, but to get players to kills lots of mobs and champions for loot. She isn’t claiming objectives; she isn’t putting any one in danger, let alone the zone as it continues to operate as normal during her invasion as if nothing is going on. The portal places are random and without thought out design. They have basically traded the beauty of dynamic events for Rift.

Dolan.3071:

You never do Path 2…..

I don’t see why. Path 2 is fairly easy, and we completed the Ghost Eater after we got some practice with the fight’s mechanics. By far the most problematic being that he bugged and spawned in the upper right corner making the fight reset several times as we tried kiting him to the eastern trap.

Is the Ghost Eater in AC Path 2 supposed to spawn in the upper west corner, or is this a bug? At this distance it made it impossible to kite him to the eastern trap without him deaggroing.

Can the meet the hosts achievement still be done, or is this no longer possible after doing the story instance?