Guild Wars 2

I’ve killed people in less than 5 seconds with power ranger. They just happened to also be power rangers typically =P. Though I’ve killed all classes so far with it, but tbh why bother when the other classes do it better? But here’s a story for what its worth

I was running a fun little ambush power build for a while: glass, gs/sw.axe. Pop signet of hunt to start, take kitty. Kitty goes rawr, send kitty to attack, take different path than kitty. Kitty opening hits 3.3k, I pop my signet of the wild right before kitty hits. They expect me to be behind kitty, messes way too many people up to be honest. Run up behind and scream I AM THE BEAR! Maul for 6k-7.5k. Hilt bash, weapon swap, signet of hunt pop path of scars 3.5k, aa sword ~1k damage per hit and cripple, path of scar hits again 2.5, interrupts. Kitty is hitting the whole time. Their heal is caught in the interrupts usually.

If a solid stun break/immunity prevents this, its all about pushing the player behind the class to make the mistake of trying to heal for the initial burst. The longer the fight goes on, the less damage I do, trying to get a maul/hunt signet combo off to force their heals. I have had days in which I destroyed person after person, even in 1vx situations. Other days I get nothing.

Autoattacks
Awesome, thanks for the information about the LH! I was thinking pvd, but if the aftercast is too much then its a shame. 1x blast + Leap might still be nice, if you consider it comes with a static field as well for control.
I’m really hoping the autos pan out, thanks for the advice about being able to switch during cast, I didn’t know that one yet (elementalist is my least played class unfortunately XD).
I just tested the autoattack heals, its a bit difficult. I can’t self target, but if it hits the ground near me, it still heals without enemy target. I tried using an npc target to help me test, it didn’t aim towards him. It only aims in the direction I’m facing. I can modify the arc by adjusting my camera, I am able to shot pretty consequently at my feet by looking down, and can shoot full range by looking upwards. In between is more difficult.

Btw thanks for the clarity on scepter! I think your idea of using aa in between would make up for it though, especially if I can’t get my healing power maxed.

Trait thingies
I’d rather keep blasting staff as well, if only for aoe denial/cc you suggest, Yams. Condition clear is my biggest worry right now, I’ll just have to stick to the aoe clearers I guess. Survivability in general is worrying me, I might dump soothing winds for earth, because I think it will be more valuable in the end. Its basically [edit better estimate] 50 healing 10% speed [worthless usually] 100 prec 100 fero versus 100 toughness (220 when attuned to earth) 100 cdamage (apparently Icebow bleeds, but doubt its worth it) and the 3 seconds extra before death.
Conjurer is also an interesting choice, but I found that until this point I’m actually throwing away my conjured weapons if I don’t auto attack the charges very quickly (20ish seconds in ice bow is about max, based on what I do currently in my tests, for 2x ice storm, auto attack uses up the rest of the charges in between nicely actually).. It’s not great choices all around.. Maybe if I went full magi instead of clerics this would be worth more? But my damage would be even worse for useless crits and getting hit even harder.

Thanks guys for the input! I already changed several things thanks to the advice.
Here is the current mock up
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vEEQFAWnMISLDWABWPAdEGAIPS5FWEFwo8IGesB-z0BBIrAZRFRjtupIasqaAqGYaVLq2jlRrGA-w

Why I started with Earth (Agreed with the move towards arcane)
My original reasons for earth were survivablity. I wanted that 300 toughness, reduced mobility conditions and actually find those GMs the most interesting. Signets was for similar reasons. I made a new mock up removing these things based on your guys suggestions (and threw 10 points in air for a tiny bit more healing because I didn’t like most of my options, though I will miss the toughness I think.) The arcane blasts are looking worth the trade off though!

Sigil of Energy
Sigil of Energy is a good idea, I’ll definitely consider it if it is still nice post patch. Sigil of water is so lackluster atm, maybe it’ll get even more of a buff though, so we’ll see. I’ll be updating the new numbers shortly (on dodge heals should be pretty interesting.)

Autoattack heals
Ice bow healing without healing power is already enjoyable to me already simply because its on an auto attack and does a very decent amount considering this. But my real hope is that the double multiplication over outgoing heals will make this build shine in niche situations such as zerg versus zerg in a choke point(while being useless everywhere else, but hey, that’s why I have 10 slots). The thing I try to remember is that if I can keep the aa going, I’ll be providing an otherwise nonexistent form of extra survival. But I’m really not expecting much until after I tested it!

As for the spamming water 1 the whole time, I’m hoping it won’t come to that. With staff 3 potentially being a second heal in the case of some classes on a 16s cd, and having fire for aoe denial (some people reflexively dodge aoes, the larger the battle, the more likely they won’t risk tanking it. It might cost just a few people a dodge) and of course the beautiful crowd control, I didn’t forget about those, don’t worry =) I could see myself spamming water 1 in a stacking situation in a choke point however, aiming at my group if I switched too early to water, or don’t dare to leave it. This is probably less effective than aoe dps, I’ll give you that… But hey, if we get new shinies, we should at least try them!

Weapons
Btw does scepter 3 really scale better? Because on the build editor it is actually scaling poorer…
Oh and I went LH instead of FA because its has blast every 1.5s autoing, with an on demand leap as well rain is 6s water field, so probably get 2-3blasts with hammer chain) If I’m closer to the front lines, I’d be LH if I’m backlining I’d probably go axe.

Gunna go fix the op now, thanks again

Edit
Guardian tome heals better?
I took the same gear, and snagged some healing traits + healing signet.
The auto heals better than the staff heal (but can’t get our new 25%) However its 20 seconds every 180 seconds.
Even if you pull off the full heal with a 20k average once in those 20 seconds, its 111 per second (20k/180) if a fight lasts that long. [unaffected by benevolence]
The aa would net a bit more, with 2.4k ish [with benevolence sigil] per 3/4 -> 26 × 2.4 = 62400, 62,4k/180=347 per second.
Let’s toss in the resolve virtue at 617 per 3s for allies.. 206per second. (if the multiplier works here was well, let’s just assume that.) => 247.

705 per second with tome and similar investments.

Hi guys

I was bored, so I decided to try and make a full healing elementalist due to the lovely new additions coming the 15th. I’d love suggestions! (I am considering actually running this in certain guild groups in wvw after running the numbers). I edit to update after suggestions.

The role of this build is to heal and not die. Unfortunately there is no Healing, Vitality and Toughness stats (I hear people grinding their teeth already!) so I figured, I guess we’ll let our monk do a bit damage as well. [All exotics besides weapon]

Here’s what I’m thinking

Full cleric gear w/ Monk Runes
Magi Trinkets (Divine Amulet)
Zealot Staff w/ Superior Sigil of Water (Energy if it stays the way it is is better) and the new Benevolence (I heard it’ll stack with similar boosts, would like a confirm)

Traits will be 0.0.2.6.6

Earth: Earth Embrace
Water: Piercing Shards/Aquamancer’s Alacrity/Aquamancer’s Benevolance
Arcane: Arcane Mastery/Arcane Energy or Blasting Staff/Evasive Arcana

Using the Arcane Brilliance, Arcane Blast, LH and Ice Bow (In zerg switch to defensive cantrips?). FGS for mobility. Also considering Ice Elemental if it doesn’t get insta killed like most summons.

Defensive Stats are not very good, with about 16k hp and 2.1k armor. Damage stats are also not amazing at 2.67k attack and 30% crit chance (If I do damage, it’ll be with ice bow 4 on a shadow refuge/seige, which hits 535 per hit at these stats)

I have been give the suggestion of going scepter/dagger. I’m still leaning towards staff because of more constant heals

Heals
All heals are heal value including 1.25 (AB) 1,125 (Sigil Bene) 1.1 (Monk). Still need new values, but I need to unlock stuff.

Staff 1 – 3/4 second – 240 radius with 1082 heal
Staff 3 – 16 second – 240 radius Water field 2s with 5227 heal
Staff 5 – 36 second – 420 radius Water field 6s, grants regen [do regen heals get benevolence bonus as well? If it does, 8289 heal over 6s]

Arcane Brilliance (blast 20s)
Arcane Wave (blast 24s)
Lightning hammer (blast every 1.5sec on aa + leap) versus Flame Axe (ranged blast every 5 sec)

Ice Bow 1 – 3/4 second – 240 radius with 1404 heal (I take ice bow for siege clearing with meteor shower/nuking shadow refuges)

Dodge cleansing wave will do 4k.
Swapping to water 3k
Soothing mist 2.2k

Ice elemental heals for 6.5k (25s) assuming it doesn’t increase with healing power, new effects, etc.

Sigil of Water is 370 with a 0.1 scale currently, and will change to no longer need crits, making it more reliable. On the stats as they now stand, its about 500 aoe heal (if benevolence works on this as well, 750) with a 30% chance (let’s say 225 heal extra per auto attack every 10 secs (I believe they proc on damage aoes as well))

All values are per person who is not me (up to five targets)
Btw It doesn’t split the healing between people right?

So what do you guys think? =P

I don’t think its a good idea, not because of any fundamental issues with it, but because marksmen traits are an overcrowded mess as is.

Camo is pretty useless, unless you take remorseless (GM mm traits) in which it becomes decent. However, tohave a signet active effect yourself as a ranger, you also need Signets of the Beastmaster or whatever its called (another GM mm trait). Therefore this skill would never be fully functional. If the camo was the passive, say gain camo when not moving or performing an action for x seconds, then this might actually see some use, depending on the x.

Btw I think this should be in the Ranger forum

Woah, slow down! Only one change per two weeks now =P

26. Option to display player names and armour always in their respective team color instead of “blue=ally/red=enemy” in PvP and WvW. I’m totally confused every time a red enemy comes from a blue base and captures a blue point – this is a consequence of transferring from a different PvP game which always persisted team colors, and I’m sure I’m not the only one with this problem. To make it worse, /team channel is of an enemy-red colour instead of current team color.

I’m confused, my wvw always has persistent team colors in armor, greens are greens, blues are blues and reds are reds… so does my pvp. Do you mean enemies always red?

To be fair though, more clarity is always nice..

@Kitonlyhuman Let’s bring these quotes in to this thread real quick and see if you arn’t exaggerating =P

Hey everyone!
I’m very glad and excited with your overwhelming responses regarding the MegaServer system. We are still working on establishing the best roll-out plan for this feature. I’d like to provide you with an update on our plans. It was announced on the blog post that we planned to start with the PvP Lobby, the level 1 to 15 maps, as well as the cities. As MegaServers evolved into a finished product, we have changed our initial roll-out plan.
We are now planning on releasing the system starting with the PvP lobby and low population maps, and incrementally moving onto the maps with high populations. With this approach, the behavior on level 1 to 15 maps won’t change until we’ve seen the positive confirmation from the community as well as from our metrics that MegaServer is working as expected on lower population maps.
MegaServer is a complex system, so we will be closely monitoring its deployment. We will make adjustments to our plan in accordance with the results of the roll-out. Our Quality Assurance team have performed a great job in doing an extensive testing of the game under this new paradigm, but nothing can stress out a system like a huge amount of players rushing through Tyria to rediscover the world with fellow adventurers. Which is why we’re extremely careful about that.
Please keep voicing your questions and remarks about MegaServers! We’re excited to bring out this new way of fostering our game community, and your comments are greatly helpful in doing so.
See you in Tyria!
— Samuel

Ok..So we can assume that they maybe left out cities although its not quite stated exactly…
But whats this? A few posts further..

Hello!
Here’s some clarification, as I understand that this whole thing is quite complicated to grasp.
The roll-out plan ultimately include all maps in the open world, including the cities. The speed at which we’ll roll out the system will depends on how the system performs versus our expectations, but the goal is to ultimately cover the whole open world.
The roll-out is done on a per-map basis. Once a map uses the MegaServer system, it uses it for all Worlds (that is the point of the MegaServer system). The “map population” I am referring to is the average population on the map across all Worlds.
Thanks for your comments!
— Samuel

So its not that cities are protected, its they got postponed. Not quite what you said.

Remember, the greatest harm is caused by the best of intentions.

Just throwing it out there, but this kind of misguided hatred is created by fear that comes from ignorance. Like Fenar mentioned, the gaming population consists of young males. They are pressured by a world that isn’t always exactly welcoming to homosexuality, particularly in males. This pressure is increased by their contact with each other, and lack of understanding of themselves (which in turn leads to increased fear and stronger repulsion). What you are seeing is a continuation of this pressure in this online community.

And remember, being a commander takes 100g and time dedication, which caters to people who actually have time, a younger audience in other words. However, I think you need to take a step back, and take a breath because the no kitten part at least is a reference to something if I’m not mistaken…(the lowest form of humor, referencing!)

If it really bothers you that much, make a custom chat tab with party, guild and whispers (I’m pretty sure you can, sorry if I’m mistaken).

Did you have underwater gear, or you still using a level 1 item?
Also what class are you talking about?
While underwater combat seems to last a bit longer for me, I can almost never die in it..

I just don’t like not having all my skills

I don’t think so, but it might explain the surge of gold seller spam I’ve been getting..

SaltyDave.7346:

First and more important: it’s not only about the stat combos themselves, but making it aviable to use in the first place. Various stat combos are much harder to get, and I belive restrictions and walls created by the market isn’t something that should be allowed.

This just came into my mind when I started my guardian (3rd “serious” character) and wanted to get a set (not sure about it’s name) that was only aviable during a specific Living World event, and each armor piece was over 100g in the trading post. I remember it had vitality as main stat, and power / toughness I think as secondary stats, not sure about it.

ALL stat combos should be equally be in a realistic, possible reach for everyone.

Its sentinel I think, but I agree that all stats ingame now should be more accessible, although I feel locking it behind a yearly event in which several drop per account is interesting as well.

I also agree with all the make your own stat combination ideas. That would be interesting.
For myself, I think Ferocity Power Vitality or Ferocity Precision Power would do nicely if we can only choose 1 type..

Although why not just make a spread sheet, see what they are missing, make giver’s armor the same as weapons and then fill all the gaps in one go. Hold a few back for yearly events, make some karma only, keep about three aside for a solo dungeon, rest crafting/drops (perhaps even some crafting specific?) This could replace a LS week perhaps? Heck, add new skins with it and you’d have a very happy population ^^

(Give the people the challenge with reward [new skin would be good here], make crafting become stronger, give more purpose to karma)

How about Brains of the Mist Invaders?

The feature update is bringing features that for a large part should have arrived in the beta, but better late then never? The worse part is its mostly trade-offs.

Dye system is good, but adding it this late so all the people who wanted the most expensive dyes on multiple characters, some dyes being temporary gem store gambling even, have progression lost is bad.

Account wardrobe is good, costume, tonic, etc mess is bad. I foresee many refunds for these items in the future as will as steadily increased mistrust in the gem store =P

Megaserver feels as if they took the suggestions from the forums, made it happen without actually considering the effect it will have beyond filling shards. And why in cities, where at least some server identity, important for wvw and some forms of organized play (we still have no alliances to affiliate guilds together), could have been preserved?

Trait system gives the earning of traits, which would have been amazing for release, but now feels empty and desperate. If they released a new race with it, however, it would have more meaning. And the number changes are just filler, to bloat the update, which is pretty empty actually.

Balancing – very little happening here (I don’t believe they have anything big hidden at this point, but we can always hope), even though we had to wait for this update? Why, because we have to wait to see how the meta settle with the new GM traits and runes?

GM traits – cool at first, when you start playing around with them, it gets a lot less cool. Many are awkward, some are good. I like that they are adding more, but I hope they fix the trait lines.

Runes, sigils and the like – Good update, I personally don’t like that they are making the full set weigh even more than it did before, as it reduces choices and the viability of mixing and matching, but this is an overall good change in my opinion.

Crit damage changes – more transparency is good, nerfing things without fully realizing the effect on other aspects is bad. Their ability to do math isn’t great, nor is their understanding of the value of different stats. (looking at celestial here in particular)

Removing money sinks is probably not a great idea, not that I don’t appreciate it. I’m talking about all of them, account bound instead of soulbound, free traits (they mentioned it twice btw, see what I mean with filler), free armor repairs. I want it all, but I know I shouldn’t =P

Social update is too vague, but it sounds like they’re pretending they have more than what they actually have. We’ll see

PvP unification would be good, but it smells of resetting progression for no particular reason. Before you get mad at me for this one, let me pose two scenarios. If you achieved a title with 1000 hours of gameplay, then suddenly everyone can achieve the same in 500hours, this is a reduced value, and lost progress in the sense that your progress is worth less. If you earned, found or made a awesome gear skin that is cool and hard to get in pvp, but normally easier to get in pve, it loses its rarity and thus value, especially in a game that claimed to be horizontal based.
I do like the new gear system it proposes, however the skin change is just a money grab, unless there is a steady reward rate of transmutation charges in pvp. As before, we’ll just have to see.

Take your crit %, get rid of it, replace it with a new stat that is equal in value to precision (minor stat). Divide the new minor stat by 15, that is your new crit %.

That is the ground breaking change that is changing the zerk meta in pve (obligatory sarcasm)

I disagree with this because it breaks large communities at a time which communities are the main thing holding many players in the game.

I disagree because it completely negates the choice of server, making it even less of a reason to play on a underdog server in wvw. I choose a low population server so I can just goof off with friends without having all the popular events done seconds after it pops up (beta weekend style), not so I would get shifted into someone else’s shard constantly. I know that on many maps this still won’t be a problem, but it still irritates me.

I have no idea why they are doing this to cities because these, of all places, should remain server bound. There is nothing to the 5 cities, I can see former lion’s arch, the social center, being joined maybe… But where are wvw guilds going to recruit now? If guilds become free of server bounds as the new update suggests might happen in the future, then why would they choose servers to represent, beyond wvw bonuses?

You might have noticed I’m a big wvw person… If I don’t want to take up a slot in wvw, and want to chat with fellow server members in particular, say we are planning a community event, which was a very common occurrence in old LA, where and how? Do we have to “guild up” which is the current solution to these problems? What if my guild slots are full, what if some guilds don’t want people who only join in on occasion joining them?

Many questions, and I’m not sure that its fully thought out.. But we’ll see I guess

blakdoxa.7520:

Are we really going to have to see that one guy screaming on map chat cause no one will duel him?
Of course not. Blocked.

Fact of the matter is that people often associated dueling with griefing due to bad past experiences. More than likely duelist will be shut out of their server community for spamming duel requests and complaining on chat. Then some server will start sucking in all of the duelist and be the only one dueling server that the rest of the servers hate.

Hm, actually if it goes like this it will be a good thing. Hey Anet! Make this happen!

I’d agree fully, but darn, mega server update =P
Maybe we can all get flags, like duelists, roleplayers, explorers or whatever to help fix that imbalance.. I dunno.

I wanted dueling since beta. Pvp arenas arn’t the same.. I used to go off with a bunch of buddies in other games and find the coolest areas to duel very often.

Roleplaying is not cybering…
And I agree, cybering should be kept out of the public chats, at the very least.

All anti-roleplayers, please just leave. It is a valid way of playing and enjoying the game, and no one has suggested anything that would effect non-rpers.

All concerned role players please ignore the insults so they have nothing to feed on. (I know I didn’t but I’ll be good and shut up now)

I believe a role play flag would be great, if I got thrown into an RP shard, I know I’d start rping.

@swim This is an interesting idea, but do you mean offensive wise as well? EG elementalist can get 60 points per new system point in every trait? If the totals are balanced, it might work. I like that this idea is transparent number wise, but I feel it is still unfair to weaker classes, especially at lower levels with the new trait update.

@Felices My thought exactly

What bugs me is that speed doesn’t stack, making multiple traits and skills worthless. If they stacked, that might be interesting, probably hard to balance, but interesting.

Eg Elementalist 5% air minor + 25% dagger trait + 25% signet of air for a passive 55% speed buff with a significant investment (25 trait points and a utility slot off the top of my head). Due to the gap finishers, etc maybe it might be balanced, but probably not. Would reduce moaning about mobility on the dd ele at the least though XD.

But then Guardians would be in trouble. I’d suggest all classes get at least 1 way to get 25% then, with more ways based on the need/role of the class.

Similar to your idea, but instead of base, make it a build option to encourage choices

Due to the discussion on base health starting again, I am necroing this thread in hopes of renewing discussion in the light of the new balance patch

We now see the attempt to balance with top layer things, such as traits, is still not addressing some of the points most painful to the players, and now we have to wait for x amount of time after the “balance” settles. The changes, however, are unlikely to affect the top tier classes/builds, only rearranging the middle ranks, perhaps creating a new build or two.

In short, nothing drastic in actual balancing will be done.

As an extension to my OP, I would like to point out the vast differences in traits currently. Some classes get similar abilities to others at completely different costs, and it doesn’t show a strong favoring to the base stat differences (some my argue it goes the completely opposite way!).
With the new patch not addressing this issue, is it still advisable to continue supporting the tweaking of traits, or is this kind of reset perhaps a good idea?

Passives shouldn’t be balanced with actives because actives are based on player skill.
The HP gap is an unnecessary complication that only serve to make some classes statistically better because they didn’t feel like making the classes equal in different but balanced abilities.

And now here we are, the development team is a extremely variable entity (see Mon’s thread on first page), and the hp differences and armor differences no longer have a clear counter balance. Significantly lower hp/armor (in some cases around 50%!) does not add up to equally significant damage (Does the elementalist do 50% more damage than warrior?)

I recall a thread a month ago that went on about this very thing… (wink, wink)

Press the linky in the sig to learn more, with calculations, proposed solutions, discussion and cookies

Birds f2 at 6 seconds even if it was 2k can’t quite be considered op because it is an active 333 hps that depends on a mechanic that can be dpsed down rather easily (Birds can’t tank). You’d have to run double bird (hawk and eagle it was if I recall) to make it worthwhile, but considering birds die pretty quick to collateral damage this trait would require pretty high micromanaging for it to work.

I expect it to be less myself, and it would have to be above 600/650 to match passive “unstoppable” traited heals at master levels on the heavies. Guardians heal is stopped if you can get um to blow f2 for condition removal. Warriors have it as a minor even..but same thing, because they typically take the trait to remove conditions with adrenaline anyway.

But to be fair, our traits are usually not equal to other classes. Either we have to cross trait lines to snag all the traits to one skill, or our traits allows our abilities to be equal to baked in abilities to other classes (mesmer gs pierces, etc), or the traits are similar to other classes in function, but are placed higher (Can’t warriors get 3 conditions removed every 3 secs actively using cleansing ire (master) which basically means they have the adrenaline to do it) or we have split traits where others have multiple benefits.

It might be better to just rework our traits against other classes, but I don’t see that happening..

As a part time lockdown mesmer, I approve of this trait. I giggled evilly when I read it. I don’t think its overpowered because let’s face it, its a high skill level issue and requires not only amazing reactions, but at sometimes sheer predictive abilities in pvp. Or maybe I just suck..

But I only run lock down in teams anyway, so maybe I just don’t know nuthin

Arzen Solorit.3591:

I’ve played the ranger for ~500 hours

A good ranger often (not always) plays similar to a handicapped warrior. I had the exact same experience when I went condition bunker warrior (similar build but with sw.sw/lb) for the first time and steamrolled most randoms in my way. But I suggest you go back to ranger, because your personal skill level actually decreases when playing hambow or the like =P

I play ranger, and I avoid going into dungeons ‘cause I get blamed for everything XD. For reference, I play sw.x/gs or axe.x (I’m sure people will want to wring my neck for even thinking about bringing an Axe mainhand, but I prefer it to bows as a ranged weapon).
I love sword, which makes my life easier than most

For example, my buddy who plays warrior thinks its funny to bring kick or another knock back, and use it on the bosses when pugging and stacked to see how fast I get kicked. Its programmed into players mind that a knockback is obviously a bowbear using pbs and if I’m the only ranger in the group, I’m obviously the cause =P

And there was that time that one guy kept pulling the boss and breaking the stack and saying it was cause my pet messed up the boss agro..while it was on passive and acting as a buff bot, and before long the whole group were yelling at me for it XD (I bring buffbot kitty on passive with manual f1ing to dungeons along with frost spirit, healing spring and spotter)

So I stick with pvp as Ranger, so the more people I’m making scream in rage, the better I’m doing.

But I agree with several people here, Rangers traits are a mess and their team abilities are niche, and high aoe conflicts screw them over every time. And the “end game” content is mostly team content, with many aoes…

After I went through all that trouble of not mentioning Ranger you accuse me of only thinking of Ranger. Cruel Man.

I have a warrior too. A class that you talk about most, or play the most doesn’t define you. We are all just players, and we all have different styles. The profession we play should be the least interesting part of our play style.

Furthermore, I’m not saying that your traits have to be junk. I even said that I agreed that that trait was junk. Read, and don’t assume please.

I also did say that your invulni idea would be OP. Even if it was 1 second, you have 5 second weapon swaps. The fact that you think this is “grandmaster worthy” makes me wonder how many GM traits in this game do you find worthy?

If it was even just a general 1 condition cleanse I would be worried about it. 1 condition per 10 seconds is the rule of the thumb from what I’ve seen, there are only a few better.

However, if I look at it in perspective, I wouldn’t even bother taking it as a cleanse because I already have everything I need on my warrior build, including cleanse. I hope that speaks volumes in itself. The choices are lackluster because you have solid other choices. This is disappointing, but more than others can say.

Btw, if you don’t care about other classes, then why are you bringing this up on the balance forum, in which most things are compared between classes?

lordkrall.7241:

Riss.1536:

And what about celestial ? MF dissapeared and critital take a lot harder hit than on zerker gear…

And it will get a +6% increase of all other stats to compensate.
That is more than enough.

No.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Celestial-stat-compensation-mistake/first#post3792778

I would like a stat change offered for all Crit Damage armors as well, I have divine trinkets on several of my characters from before the MF change.. As for zerker, I would consider changing it, but I’m not sure to what. Perhaps take advantage of the stacking condition sigils and snag Power/prec/c.dam (does c.dam affect the proc?)

nicknamenick.2437:

Turtle Dragon.9241:

Balancing works in two steps:
1. Warrior can do it too.
2. Warrior does it better.

Guardians have passive regen? So does Warrior, for triple the amount.
-lets be realistic here, yes warriors have 360hps regen. guardians can go much higher if they spec for it.

Mesmers have perma-vigor? So does Warrior. Not better? Nerf Mesmer perma-vigor.
-from what? the trait that gives 50% endure back on burst skills is going to get a nerf (anet is saying bug fixed) to give only 15% endure back..

Thieves can 1-hit people? So does Warrior, with the new Burst Precision + Kill Shot. And Warriors can do it at range too.
-There is a difference between a backstab from stealth (instant and cant be seen) or a 3sec kill shot warrior kneeling down almost screaming at you he is going to hit you with a burst skill.. pls this issnt the same

Necromancers have fear? So does Warrior.
-wow yeah 1 fear on long cooldown, I see warriors fearing everyone all day, common this is just silly.

Rangers have spirits? So does Warrior, indestructible, moveable banners, including an elite which instantly rez the champion lord in stonemist castle.
….. really? you compare spirits with a banner? omg..

Sorry, bolded your responses cause I didn’t see them at first. I’ll respond to a few.

Anyway, many Warriors have perma regen, hps from adrenaline and HS, not just HS.
You can also see a thief coming, if you didn’t, then its also likely that you didn’t see the warrior kneeling down and giggling.. But tbh KS still ain’t great.
Yeah, I know right, comparing spirits that get demolished by aoes and require trait investment to move to banners that have neither of these problems.

Anyways, the omglolz response aside, I think the main problem is that the core is a mess and coupling that with a rapidly renewing population of designers makes all these big balance/feature updates pointless. They should rebalance the core imo… But that takes time and effort.

Better AI would do wonders for the game, not just the Ranger. And they should stop hammering at the top to even out the uneven base

Travis the Terrible.4739:

Zyphent.2967:

Snow.2048:

You wanna know what I think is funny? I’ll tell you anyways.
We were promised something along the lines of new ways to get legendaries [without all the grind.] (someone please bring the actual wording)

This is probably it.
I base this on things like “introducing new skills” meant 1 general heal skill and 1 class specific heal.

;)

Okay I’m REALLY curious about this one, please tell me where this “promise” was made. I need a source for this.

Go back in the blogs. It’s there I remember reading it. The only thing that they’ve added skill wise was the general purpose heal and the class specific one.

Good, I’m not completely crazy =)

You wanna know what I think is funny? I’ll tell you anyways.
We were promised something along the lines of new ways to get legendaries [without all the grind.] (someone please bring the actual wording)

This is probably it.
I base this on things like “introducing new skills” meant 1 general heal skill and 1 class specific heal.

;)

EDIT: Before I get totally shot down, I could have mistaken legendary. And the “promise” part was as far as any “promise” because they do not promise, but do mention it somewhere. Happy hunting!

(In other words, this post is probably irrelevant)

uses great amounts of willpower not to bring up Rangers

Ok. Yep you are right, it is at best a blind clear every 5 secs. It is useless.
But if it was invulni, it would be OP.

I know! Hands, so when single weilding a 1h weapon, you get a 10% damage bonus ’cause you punch um in the face (not animated). That there, is build diversity.

From the Ranger forum, a recap of my thoughts

@Read the Winds. My ranger is now considering to finally put his longbow string to good use and using it to kill himself.
@Striders Defense. It looks like it could be good, and anyone who doesn’t know ranger or the game might see it as much. But it isn’t for a couple reasons.

1. It is not clear. It is very vague. “When in melee” Does this mean in melee range? If so, they will switch to a melee weapon if they have it. If they don’t or can’t, see #2. Also it is useless when you get kited [no matter how shortly] (completely negating the purpose?). I really hope this is not what they meant.
If they mean when wielding a melee weapon, it is a bit better, but they still have the melee swap thing.
And this assumes that the enemy ranges at all considering melee tends to be more damaging power wise. Maybe it would be nice against scepter necromancers? (Who can swap to anything to bypass its effects)
2. It won’t affect AoEs, don’t even pretend it will. Most Ranged sets have aoes, so it isn’t even a full 15% defense bonus.
3. It competes with traps.
4. Almost forgot, all ranger melee weapons are power based. Power isn’t necessarily all bad, but we all know that part of it is baked into out pet which at this point still doesn’t scale, and might not for months if ever.

@Poison Master – Finally a trait I might consider, but then I’d have to take the new GM trait in NM as well to get my condition clear. In other words, pvp-wise, this trait is very niche. In pve, its poison, thus useless.

@Survival of the Fittest – Um, did this trait get lost? 30 points to snag it, and maybe 10 point to snag the related cooldown. I can see myself using it though. It is probably the best thing to come out of this. The reason its acceptable is because the utility it forces you to take is liked in pvp anyway. In other words, because it pigeonholes us into something we are already pushed towards in the first place, its ok…

@Invigorating Bond – I exaggerated in the ranger forum, but I would not take this. You arn’t just losing out on other traits, but 300 stats go to the pet instead of you. The heal would have to be impressive for me to consider it, considering it limits your pet choices to ones with short f2 cooldowns.

Tl;dr These traits force us to take things if we want them and they do not add anything special, nor can most of them compete with current options (they don’t need to be better, but these are so niche they (-nm) are obviously worse)

Nyehehehhhhugh

Ok, I’m sure I can do something with these… Let’s give it a shot based on my preferred playstyle.

First thought goes to my beloved full melee ranger, sw.x/gs. I used to run signets with it at 30.0.30.10.0. for a bit, destroyed stupid thieves cause I played part glass at that time… If I would want to go back to this build from my current hybred setup I would consider 0.30.30.10.0 or maybe 0.30.10.30.0 going full survival utilities (maybe switching one or two out).
But that is an old build that I only used because I didn’t have to re-trait between wvw and dungeons as spotter is also in mm, and neither it nor the potential new builds I mentioned compare to my current build with is full wvw based on traps and control. With free switches, I might try x.×.30.30.x however, although I hate bunkering on a class that already starts at a statistic disadvantage.

I’m gunna zoom out a bit.
Read the wind – useless to me. Not equal to other choices in the adept line, let alone gm of this tree.
Skirmishing – 15% against projectile when meleeing. Does this mean weilding a sword/greatsword or within melee range?
The latter is useless because everyone switches melee if they can (and those who can’t this will not effect the outcome of the fight greatly, especially since I don’t see this effecting aoes, and the classes that don’t have a weapon switch or don’t carry a melee weapon switch usually have several aoes so this won’t even be a full 15% reduction).
The former is weak for similar reasons on top of all our melee weapons being power based and power rangers are a bit lackluster (but doable).
Add this to the fact it competes with trapper means its a no go.

Wilderness survival – I could like this one. To bad it competes for a solid condition removal. I can see it being taken if you are going x.×.30.30.x and taking the new Nature Magic trait.

Nature Magic trait – I can see me taking this if I could find the points. I love the idea of survival traits. See my specific example above

BM – No. I would take this, but not for 30 points. It would have to heal equal to that of a good heal skill for me to want it at 30 points, before I consider throwing 300 stats, arguably 600 stats away depending on your build.

Ah Pwent, you live up to your namesake, who also never failed to make me laugh.

That beings said, I feel its the kind of change that should have happened in beta if it was gunna happen at all. It insulted me in the beginning that going anything other than a multiple of 5 was less useful than it potentially could have been.

As it stands, this is just another nerf to those who wish to go full divine! If I want to be holy and equally imbued with all stats, they should let me!

Just wanted to throw it out there, all in all I am actually really glad for some of the coming changes. I don’t agree with them all, and I will admit reading the descriptions of some of the up coming GM traits made me wonder if the whole thing was a joke, but that aside I’m glad that many things that we have been asking for, in some cases since release or beta, are finally making it into the game.

So thanks for giving us the much needed sigils to two handers improvements! (but do stop by the balance thread and address the issues with single set classes!)

Thanks for adding more (potential) build diversity by adding new traits!

Thank you for going back to one of the original ideas of going into the world and earning skills (even though it changed to traits, I still really like the depth it adds to the game) without forcing people to do it or resetting existing progress.

And a very sincere thank you from maniacs like me who can spend hours planning and changing their builds for the free trait reset. Also, the changing of 5 points to 1 point, while making the ability to gain skills a bit stretched, feels better to me at least. This is a personal thing, but I felt cheated by 70 points when there was only 14 options, unnecessary but still nice to see that its being thought about.

I probably forgot a few things, but these were what stuck with me. Now that I got that out of the way, I can go complain on the balance forums with a peaceful mind. Anyway, thanks again!

I thought it was april fools, but it is still march..

Ranger – 30 points for your autoattack to actually hit a moving target at distance
Warrior – 30 points for 10% attack speed bonus when dual wielding…

Hey guess what guys, I’m probably still stuck playing dual wielding/longbow warrior pretending to be a Ranger. I mean, I even get healing signet which I can pretend is my attunement to nature imbuing me with regenerative proprieties beyond what other people believe is possible (and perma regen).

I love my ranger and I will be testing the new traits diligently I’m sure, especially since they finally are adding the trait resets that should have been there since start..

Which reminds me, I’m going to write a thank you thread for that if there isn’t one already…

Ebonhawke, I’m already there and I’m not going to move back even if LA is rebuilt =P

No more vertical progression!!! I am trying to ignore ascended as much as possible as it is!
That said, I wouldn’t mind a small map/area (instances?) with level 85+ beasties for tougher (small) group challenges

More skills yes please though =) I hope they might change their mind about the temporary aspects of ls dungeons and introduce dungeons in the new area that will stay after the story is gone, telling their own story.

I hope there would also be some mid level areas personally, if only to give more options to leveling characters.

2/10

They would actually have scored better in my eyes if they didn’t force connecting everything with Scarlet. Would still not be high, but they shouldn’t be getting top marks for a experimental trial anyway (unless it truly is amazing, which this system was not).

For example, I personally lost respect for the toxic alliance after I heard Scarlet was involved again, and my interest in them disappeared even though I was already seeing my Sylvari switch sides after first encounter. =P

Bazaar, minigames, the content that was actually added was good, and would have helped raise the score significantly if the majority didn’t just disappear as well.

The loss of a dungeon path instead of fixing it in the name of ‘living world’, resetting player progress, all tied to this form of content delivery (you lose content to gain content?)

I don’t think I’d even buy an xpack at this point if it came out. Not to be whiny, I just think this has been enough. Guess I’ll just wait and see XD

I am epic with the sword. Visually at least

Swagger.1459:

Chrispy.5641:

The thread was dead to me at about the point where I was clicking on the names of 90% of those posters in that thread, and realizing that most of them have never made a Ranger related post before.

I’m not saying thats bad, I’m just asking, “why did 50 + of you suddenly and finally pick this week to voice your concerns for the Ranger profession and finally post ideas?”

I assume most of them were former Ranger players that learned their lesson early and rerolled, but had a shred of hope left. I’m also assuming that their hope is fully gone by now after reading the feedback.

As one of those Rangers who never post in this forum but posted in CDI, I can confirm I fill this assumption (I rage quit it monthly then go back because its very description is my bloody playstyle =P [minus the pet, but I’m not for total removal. I just want it moved completely to the bm line]) and hell if I’m not at least decent in it in pvp settings.

To confirm other’s assumptions, I don’t post here because there is no point. I stalked these forums and have read amazing suggestions, many that are now most likely lost. The whole CDI feels forced to me, and I posted there because I feel obliged to share my thoughts on the class I have the most game hours on, even if its just a repeating of others sentiments for the most part

Didn’t all fit, here is the last one:

@Tyron.1423, The presence of classes in different parts of the game does speak volumes about the variety inside each class. The lack of variety in the class is hindering the presence of of certain classes (some classes will always be weaker in some situation, but having more build choices can make up for this) and since some classes have to take stats to be viable, you can say the stat issue is part of the problem. Thanks for posting =)

@all Thanks once again, rereading the thread has made me feel a bit more positive! Many clear thinking people on both sides and all in all a very serious and polite discussion. Until we meet again, farewell!

maddoctor.2738:

Then the devs can add a special mechanic in the game so they can count how many Rangers perma-stow their pets, with or without a buff, and while doing various activities, dungeons, WvW, general pve, sPVP etc The results might be surprising.

If this mechanic was in place, I would never bring the bloody thing out XD I love the skirmisher idea for rangers, dislike the pet. I like this option also because it lets people who want the pet keep it as. Unfortunately many people would still use the pet, even if they hated it because what little it does is still an advantage

Gliding silently from the shadows, I rise my hand, as crackling necrotic energy surges around me, covering the forgotten thread in mist. “No rest for you, sweet soul.” I mutter smugly as the beast stirs.

I’m back, sorry I was gone so long. I’m gonna try to answer all posts before this point personally but briefly. After this, I’ll see if this thread gets anymore responses and will probably consider letting it die after that. We talked, some agree, others don’t. If I get around to finishing my other suggestion threads I have backed up, I might bump this up with them, but I’m not sure I’ll get to it. But if you find this an interesting and important topic, please consider posting!

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 I’m not sure if simply changing the ends of the spectrum would fix the thing that I see as the true issue, the balancing of actives and passives. However I will concede that doing this would be a good first step to balancing the current situation, and considering it cost less manpower might be the better option.

Sorry, almost missed the last post, making the stats choice based only makes the balance difference between the classes even more obvious. I think it would bring us further from balance than closer.. I’m glad you posted so many different ideas though, it was definitely what I was hoping would happen! =)

@Andele.1306 Since utilities are greater than stats anyway, why confuse the matter by calculating them in? My biggest problem is the unnecessary complication of the matter. You make good note of all the actives, but why bother balancing them with statics is the issue. Yes things need to be re-balanced in a large way. But at this point, they probably have to be anyway so why not do it on a balanced ground.
Thank you for bringing up so many points and generating plenty of discussion!

@Shadowfall, Thank you for contributing so much! I am very appreciative of your efforts =)

@Azoqu.8917 Balance is needed, but not everyone agrees with balance, especially if they are currently at an advantage. But let’s avoid pointing fingers at classes. Thanks for taking the time to post

@phaeris.7604 Yeah the most obvious balance issues are actives. This thread seems to get misunderstood a lot because of this.. But I’m not sure if its my fault yet, because some people catch it right away. Thanks for your thoughts

@Chaosky.5276 I’m just going to quote you as an answer from now on to misunderstandings XD Putting it on top of this post probably. Thanks for the clear headed response

@Ancient Ranger.3276 Thanks for solid number breakdowns. While 400 difference would be better, it doesn’t quite meet my original intention of easing skill balancing as well.. You answered my question without a conclusion so I’ll do it real quick based on your response. You have to count dodges/invulnis as a range of damage absorption with a potentially infinite upper limit based on the number of attackers, therefore it cannot be given a vitality value.
Thanks =)

@Vick.6805 Thanks, I also have trouble seeing any changes of this kind coming, especially after reading the pet is there, it may be broken, but deal with it thread =P (or collaboration development ranger is the official name)

@lvis.3824 Skyhammer brings up a good point because of its high damage (I’m not sure if the 4-6 hits is accurate, but I well assume it is for this post), however you can also consider that many pve bosses and siege weapons do similar damage, making this a cross game mode issue. Thanks for posting =)

@Wintel.4873 The problem remains quantifying the actives to match with the stats, which is one of the main focuses I aimed for when making this thread (it got a bit lost). It is possible to balance probably, but why bother if you have so many variables. The one shot issue is a good point that really makes the wide difference obvious when you switch classes. While just fixing elementalist would bring things closer to balance, I would hope for something more. Thanks for posting ^^

@Distaste.4801 A very good summary of the issue, I wish I had another post reserved so I could fit all you guys in. A lot of good solid thinking has gone into this thread so far, I hope its not in vain. Thanks =)

@nicknamenick.2437 Yeah warrior sucked because they balanced around stats in the first place, so they balanced playing less attention to the stats… So why do we still have them? While your first post was a bit disruptive (just as much so as those saying the opposite “nerf warrior” was) I am glad you took the time to explain yourself in the second post. However, I think warrior has gotten a lot of buffs since then, and while I agree a re-balance is still necessary afterwards, I stick to my point which is stats are unnecessary. Thanks for your posts =)

The Ranger is a resilient profession that excels at skirmishing by drawing from nature to support themselves as well as their allies. Alongside their pet, they have some of the best single target and sustained damage that will whittle their opponents down.

This is what I wanted in the Ranger minus the pet. Why do we need to have a required standard pet class? Because that’s what most games do? Oh well… I’m sure this topic has been chewed up enough

I hate playing my ranger simply because I love my sword and gs, but damage is shared with my pet that doesn’t scale. So being a full melee ranger can be very frustrating at times…and if I want to go condition I have to use projectiles which currently suck. Lower base damage than melee on average and they can be reflected back at you for their full damage (reflections suddenly become damage immunity in this situation not counting traps, which I have to trait in a direct damage line to use to their full extent).

Let me run dagger dagger ranger with MH dagger being a melee condition weapon or something if you arn’t going to fix the broken pet
And let’s be honest, if the pet ai is considered a joke and it is the same ai as your npcs, maybe an ai revamp isn’t exactly a bad idea for the game health as a whole.

I understand that the game long out of beta, so you want to avoid big changes but the polish just isn’t there. My favorite character (it received my favorite character name even =/) is the only character that makes me want to rage quit while playing [especially if I make the mistake of looking at the traits!].

And why would I even bother playing it now I have a warrior, mes and engi 80 is beyond me. My swsw/lb warrior is the better skirmisher, my engi can trait for aoe 1500 range (with chills, poison fields, max vulni stacks) if I want to play long distance fighting, hell I could even grab a gs on my mesmer and I get a piercing 1200 aa without traiting, that isn’t a projectile so can’t be reflected and a damage phantom that can be summoned ON walls. argggghhhh

Meh, I should leave this thread, I’m starting to get toxic.. Scarlet could have just come to the forums XD no need to hire the toxic alliance. I’ll be back when I think of a suggestion that might not have been said before [in the ranger forum], so I probably won’t be back.

Best of luck to everyone, oh and the person who makes the pet optional like it was in good old gw1 will be my hero!

@Jine, Thanks for the reply =) Everyone seems to be very keen on middle tier HP. I don’t disagree (I actually don’t really care that much, I just thought more HP = longer fights, but it might actually make condition even more essential in small scale pvp. I’d really like to hear someone’s thoughts at this point)

While I think evening armor might be the best idea given the current pve situation, I am worried that it might make things a bit too bland. A 150/300 push wouldn’t be game breaking I think, but your idea might need less balancing. What I was thinking, although this is a pretty dangerous topic, is that you could turn the skill modifier into a function based on other effects. But that’s scary stuff right there, and potentially even more dangerous to variety. Armor is definitely a difficult issue.

@oZii, I tried your link but it didn’t work sorry. I just want to make sure this is clear that this change doesn’t fix the balance problems, it fixes some of the problems in balancing. That’s what I meant it to do when I thought it up, sorry if I didn’t bring it over clearly. That being said, let’s move on to your thoughts =)

You basically have two issues with my ideas from what I gather.
1. Without balancing everything else, this change would be a mess. I completely agree with you, and that was in the original OP. I will add this to the new OP so no more confusion will take place.
2. Even with balancing, everything would become the same. I had this discussion with Tim earlier, and it is indeed a potential problem. However there are many variables left after you take out base stats. You took several into account, but there are many more. So many active options, and the game still needs to include base stats in the equation…

I have a few questions after reading your posts
Why do some classes need to have their choices limited just to have base stats?
If the base stats are gone, you could also buff things too?
Does everything has to be nerfed, when a buff/nerf sweep would be healthier imo anyway?
And besides, is a few thousand HP really going to make the difference so huge that suddenly none of the skills can be balanced against each other anymore?
Is every skill balanced with the hp and armor in mind in the first place at this point?

Thanks for your dedicated input, and going on with the discussion! I hope I cleared a thing or two up, and would enjoy to see any future posts from you ^^

@Nutshel, Good examples that I usually keep in my mind as well (just not with the detail you went into!) I’ve been trying to sneak this into my posts, so here it goes ;P "If a burst ele dies before he get his burst off, is it really a burst? " It must be getting late, because I’m finding it a bit too funny…trees…

Ehem. The damage to defense ratio should definitely be looked at in order to help make useful statements here. The vast hp differences cost build variety, just as you stated. I agree with your assessment for what it is worth (I’m brain dead at this hour, time to stop.)

Thanks for providing the examples and making a good point with fact that sustain is only useful based on your length of in combat staying ability which is directly connected to base health. Sorry that I’m losing touch right now, I need sleep.

@all, Sorry that I’m behind again. I will try to get some more replies off in the morning. You all take care, and thanks for all the thoughts and discussion going on here! I really appreciate the seriousness and the general thoughtfulness put into your responses, and how everyone is maintaining a great discussion attitude. Kudos to you all!

@All, It was my mistake to use an example I guess, but I am trying to avoid finger pointing. While examples are good and I’m not asking you guys to stop using them, let’s be careful that it doesn’t become a thread of “nerf stealth and hs, fixed”. Thanks guys for dedicating time and thoughts!

@Sir Morgan Malory, They were taken into account from what I know. Elementalist got snubbed because of having actives that in a skilled player’s hand went beyond the stat difference. Then they were over-nerfed. Warriors were meh because their actives were balanced assuming that the vit and toughness would make up for it. Then they were buffed when this wasn’t the case. All these changes effected the actives only, and the further we go from the release, the less they seem to take these base stats into account. I’m not trying to pin blame here, I also manage large complicated networks of sorts on occasion and it is very easy to miss a variable or two when you are dealing with dozens (let alone hundreds or thousands) when you want to change something after you finished putting the kitten thing together.

@Stogzlol, Thanks for your support, and I’m glad you enjoyed the read! I know I have been enjoying this thread as well =). I get the feeling that a lot of those who agree play(ed) elementalist XD. I’m a melee ranger main myself though.. Anyway, the issue might not be the paper dps (I don’t do paper dps because it’s a waste of time calculating) but the real dps not quite meeting the paper dps. Or they realized that the current system of pve is all about dps so they’re balancing classes around dps being equal… Who knows? They aren’t going to tell us that

I just want more choices in the end, I like playing a glass melee, I accept I die almost instantly if I f up but I also like playing a tanky bunker (my personal preference usually) which I can’t seem to accept that I have to choose classes with enough defensive stats to be able to have a strong basis for a bunker or choose a class that has enough defensive stats to get away with glass. It feels so lopsided to me. I know that stats aren’t everything, but that probably why it bugs me the most, it feels so unnecessary and forced (if every other game has stat differences else, we should too).

We’ll just see how the thread develops ^^

@Andele, It seems easy, but I ask this question that I always ask. How much is the invulnerability worth? Etc etc etc. You all get the point now, but I stand firmly upon it. An invulnerability has the potential to be worth a huge amount of stats (endure pain against a burst going off, or even better, multiple bursts!) or next to none (against pressure between bursts). The solution of making armor matter less and toughness choices more is just changing the ratio’s which would make this better, but that falls under the solution of bringing the base stats closer. Making the armor worth less relative to toughness results in a net difference change between armor types (the difference is smaller). Why not just reduce the difference straight out? And either way, would this be worth having to re-balance a lot of the game?

I’m just going to assume you are right with those dps/burst claims for the sake of this response (can you bring numbers next time, please? It makes life easier). How close is the second best burst to elementalist, and does the increase in burst warrant the survival difference between the two. Also, what are the cd differences we are talking about here? Are they close enough/far enough to warrant the difference?
And if thieves have the highest dps, is that before or after counting stealth uptime (several dead seconds)/ evasion/dodges in which little to no damage is done depending on the build? I really want to see the math on this one (I’m not doubting you, just love me some solid math). But assuming highest dps for a moment, is the difference between them and the second highest dps enough to cover for the fact that they can be completely destroyed while in stealth, one of their main defensive abilities?
Is it enough to make it acceptable for both these classes to have must have traits/stat choices just to live (and thus never realizing their full damage potential anyway) or going full damage potential but being unable to bring it to bear because they die to quick?

How to separate?
I think this is fairly clear, but there are multiple posts (and not many new ideas sadly =/). I think base health should be equalized (simply because I have no idea how to balance a few hundred vitality. It has no true opposite, and is more of less just a sponge anyway), which people disagree with. Give me a better idea so I can shower you with virtual confetti and call you the true savoir of tyria. Or if you want, answer my little question that I probably have asked and will ask many times before this is over “How much vitality is a dodge worth (or evasion, invul, etc)?” Give me a run down, and show me the truth.

Armor is a bit of a difficult point in the discussion. I thought, let’s just take the opposites, double check the skill modifiers and call it a day. This doesn’t seem to make many people happy though.
What are the pro’s and con’s of leaving it alone, equalizing it, balancing it with power or -insert your idea-. If you are convinced you are right, then convince me If you do that you get full credit here, as is due [you’ll find I’m pretty easy to convince as long as your logic is solid and your math + ideas are good]. Then we can get on to the hard part, which is trying to prove that point to everyone else.

But I guess I should stop here and get some answers posted! Anyway, thanks for reading.

Hi guys!

1.5k+ views and you guys have been busy replying I see! Thank you all for your thoughts and opinions, I will do my best to give everyone a response, as usual!

But before we begin, I think I should try to explain myself a bit more, because I get the feeling that I accidentally misplaced the focus with the remake. So I’ll try to say some things here, wishing I had reserved a third post for the OP XD.

First off, this will not magically fix everything, in fact, this change alone won’t fix squat of the most visible issues in profession balance besides the stat difference itself. But it is important, because it hinders balancing acts and or restricts build choices. Smaller stat differences would make this problem more surmountable, but to truly ease the process of balancing it would be more efficient to separate the passives from the actives. Let’s take apart that statement though, because I’m not quite clear enough it seems

What is a passive? And an active?
Here is a problem I keep bumping into. What do I mean with passive, what do I mean with active? I actually managed to get somewhere when reading through the comments and answering some (my internet failed on my computer so I have a document with a lot of notes, coming soon). Here is what I am thinking

Passives are inherent things that a class possesses without anything, so all builds of the same class have it. And they are passive in that you don’t have to do anything about it. They just are. Base stats is what I mean when I say passives usually, but why do I keep making the “mistake” of suggesting that base stats are the only passive. After some thinking, I came to the conclusion “because they kinda are”. Before you protest, please read on, this is my opinion and method of dividing the “stuff” that makes up classes.

I have three categories in my mind:
Inherent Passives [read Base Stats] (no choice, always there)
Optional Passives [Stat items; traits, signet passives](choice, always there when chosen) <The act of choosing makes me think of them as _act_ives when I’m speed thinking>
Actives [Certain traits, abilities](choice, only there when you execute a command)

Class abilities are inherent, but they always come with two things. Their very own trait line (typically) and usually an active effect based on them. Therefore, I consider these as actives, notably actives that create some of the most striking differences between the classes. Most other things you have to choose to get or choose to activate, but not base stats.

Let’s take this model and connect it to some of the discussion thus far. Actives definitely cannot be balanced with base stats, as they represent a range, not a set number. If you take the average or the minimum an active can give, you’ll see skilled players over performing. If you take the maximum, you’ll see most people under performing, but no over performance. I just can’t wrap my head around this ever working because even if you get this delicate balance set, and you find the sweet spot for every active, then the result is that you cannot change anything without risking the whole thing falling apart again (and not a small risk at that unless you are just adding filler junk).

Optional passives as I call them might come into balance with base stats. You make choices and get a static boost and static boosts can be balanced with other static boosts. However, then the matter of choice comes into play. I’m trying to avoid using examples here to break the finger pointing habit a bit, but I’m sure everyone can think of a trait that is must have in multiple builds on a class because it shores up inherent weaknesses. Or a class that has to stat for some vitality. Choice becomes limited because you are hooked on certain factors that you must have, be they active or passive. If you free up the base stats which have no choice, then you allow choice (after balancing the rest of course) because you don’t have to grab certain stats or traits just to get by.
Min-maxers will always be trying to pigeon hole you into the fotm build that they proclaim is the best (and it might just be), and this change would not change that (you need trait x or you fail nub). But for people who want to choose, this change would be a large step towards allowing it on some classes that are limited. What was that slogan again? Play the way you want?