Guild Wars 2

Laraley.7695:

StickerHappy.8052:

To all the naysayers, It can:

Competitive Team match right here.

http://imgur.com/PBIQres

It does a lot more than focus:

why do people like focus? Invuln. Thats it.

More healing for team support. Water 4 and 5
Reflects check? CC check. Air 4 and Water 4.
Boon sharing? Check.
Conditions? Check. Lots of bleeds and burns plus those blinds.
Water fields? Check.

Whatever focus can do, warhorn can too.

Fire field = Fire 5
CC =Water 4 and Air 4
Aura = the loss of fire aura from Focus get replaced by magnetic aura on WH, still fair trade.
Blast finisher = Earth 4, lacks 1 from Focus Earth 4

So bottom line:

Focus only steps up ahead with 1 extra blast finisher, 1 condition clear and 1 Invuln. Pro players use it, that’s why everyone flocks to it
Warhorn offers more for the team like AoE healing, Water fields, AoE burns and bleeds and blinds.

One glaring problem of warhorn is the clunkiness is of the skills, and yes Warhorn could use some rework.

You’re comparing wrong things.

You want more offense? You play dagger.
You want more defesne? You play focus.
You want more support? You play staff.

Warhorn is clunky, its boonsharing sucks and the damage from it is not all that great. No one plays it simply because it’s inferior to other offhands.

Winning a game with warhorn doesn’t mean anything and it definitely not proves it’s better than other options ele has.

Wow this guy. Cherry picking much?

When did I say winning a game with WH meant something?

Did you even glance at the stats?
I can post more games like this with WH.

You want more offense? Go play dagger?

• What are you smoking? I dealt almost 1m damage this match with an offhand that is subpar then you tell me play dagger? okay show me a match where you deal 1.5m damage with D/D. please enlighten me. Not solo q matches, 5v5 Matches.

Noone plays it because a lot of people suck playing any class.

Again before you cherry pick my post again, I did say WH do need tweaks and yes its clunky but I am doing VERY WELL WITH IT.

If you still refute my point on my play style maybe because I am just a better player than you?

Here are more screenies, and these are all team matches.

https://i.imgur.com/IRmLb4T.jpg

• Please do tell me if your staff can heal your allies for 700k. and do 800k damage at the same time

https://imgur.com/pfpewqT

• Stronghold match yes it irrelavant but hey “It’s that very clunky OH that I was using”

https://imgur.com/YdV15dQ

• 750k damage and 500k healing

https://imgur.com/cFOuIQe

• 5v5 match, just didn’t screenie the details, but my team and the other team was composed of forum people (kdaddy was on the other team) So if you wanna know if this is a legit match go ask them

So do you want more proof? I can post more.

Please come back at me if your FA burst ele can do 1m damage in competitive 5v5 Match and do 400k healing at the same time. Please.

“Damage from Warhorn is not that great”- Laraley

okay….

All the people saying “this is unranked”

Stop deluding yourselves there are a lot of bad players in ranked too.

To all the naysayers, It can:

Competitive Team match right here.

http://imgur.com/PBIQres

It does a lot more than focus:

why do people like focus? Invuln. Thats it.

More healing for team support. Water 4 and 5
Reflects check? CC check. Air 4 and Water 4.
Boon sharing? Check.
Conditions? Check. Lots of bleeds and burns plus those blinds.
Water fields? Check.

Whatever focus can do, warhorn can too.

Fire field = Fire 5
CC =Water 4 and Air 4
Aura = the loss of fire aura from Focus get replaced by magnetic aura on WH, still fair trade.
Blast finisher = Earth 4, lacks 1 from Focus Earth 4

So bottom line:

Focus only steps up ahead with 1 extra blast finisher, 1 condition clear and 1 Invuln. Pro players use it, that’s why everyone flocks to it
Warhorn offers more for the team like AoE healing, Water fields, AoE burns and bleeds and blinds.

One glaring problem of warhorn is the clunkiness is of the skills, and yes Warhorn could use some rework.

• First of all I’d like to say I am the minority when it comes to the general dislike of the flanking mechanic, I think it’s one of the main reasons why shortbow is so good and I do not want it to become like the other braindead condition spamming Weapons “cough” necro scepter “cough” engie pistol.

Crossfire

> Retain the bleed on flanking, but raise base damage of the attack.

New Deal Double damage when flanking.

• My reasoning as I’ve said above is if you guys want to put bleeding without effort, it will be such a braindead mechanic, pair it up with Krait Runes and Expertise, Bleeds Galore. Not to mention the New Bleeding Barbs. The double damage will help boost shortbow damage by a lot too on top of increasing base damage.

Poison Volley

>Retain the same effect but increase the radius of it (not the range), raise the base dmg by a bit.

Evasive Shot

>Fire an evasive shot, if it hits Gain Super Speed (2 seconds), If you hit the enemy while flanking, enemy is slowed for 2 seconds. Raise base dmg by a bit.

Crippling Shot

> Cripple foe for 3 seconds, Pet’s next attack deals bleeding. Gain quickness (2 seconds) If you hit the target while flanking.

Concussion Shot

> Daze the target, apply 3 stacks of confusion (3 seconds) on a successful daze, apply 5 stacks of confusion when you hit the target when flanking.

Light on Your Feet

>Make it work with evading, the effect cannot proc more than once. Lasts 5-6 seconds. 4 seconds is very short.

Predator’s Instinct

> Cripple and Slow (2 seconds) opponents when you hit them below threshold. 50% health threshold (15 second icd)

• My reasoning for this is 30 seconds is a very long cd only to be cleansed. I believe that the trait should prevent an opponent from running away from you when he is close to dying.

Final thoughts:

Again I am at in a minority here, but SB is the strongest dueling/skirmishing weapon in game IMO. (talking from experience here). I have defeated countless very good mesmers (OMFG people), very good rangers (a lot from WIND guild) skilled duelers, etc. At the same time I think it requires a bit of work (esp on the damage side) to be competitive in PvP in the current meta.

PowerBottom.5796:

not true if you use fresh air. Scepter is IMHO the best option when using fresh air, because of a few key reasons:

- Scepter has bad sustained dmg, but having the absurd Air Overload on such a low CD completely takes care of it.
- Mainhand Dagger has schocking aura, which is amazing, but you can also get the schocking aura with tempest defense, which makes the lack of on-demand schocking aura less impactful,
- The Blind on Air is absolutely huge in certain MU’s to be able to blind interrupts, Not easy to use, but if used well, it’s worth it’s weight in gold.
- The on-point pressure and spiked dmg on fire especially is huge.
- It’s ranged, which is very helpful and helps to set Ele apart from Engi. This is IMHO important since many D/D or D/F-builds are simply worse versions of Engi in almost every way.
- The new Amu’s, like paladin, work well on scepter, since it’s basically all power dmg.

Yes, the auto’s are bad and they could maybe use a slight buff, but it’s really not that big of a problem. I run a Fresh Air build with pala amu and defensive runes (soldier, leadership or water mostly) and the DMG output is very high for such a tanky build.

This is such a one sided approach.

• Every overload is a channel, any decent player will focus you or CC you during this vulnerable animation
• Every Scepter AA is so bad, have you tried using AA on fire? Water? Earth? or Air? The argument ranged should not even be a factor, do you know how much Slow the AAs are? Being ranged is not even a factor. Even the Elixir Gun AA will damage Scepter AA overtime, and it’s a kit.

• Tempest Defense only procs when you are CCed, its on a 25 second cd too,
• Blind on air is only useful against classes who do not evade, try hitting a thief with that.

• So you only have air for reliable damage? Dragons tooth, Phoenix, Shatter stone, all easily avoidable, Rock Barrier needs to be cast again to damage, So you are basically left with Air swap, Scepter Air 3 and the blinds for damage.

Malchior.5732:

Alekt.5803:

Malchior.5732:

Alekt.5803:

Malchior.5732:

Alekt.5803:

Malchior.5732:

Alekt.5803:

Revenants are dealing 7k crits with precision strike

Press 3 on Earth Staff, 4 on Focus, use Earth Shout, or just walk back and forth/jump around. Better yet, just fight near boxes or houses.

I can guarantee you that you wont be hit for 7k ever again (until it gets fixed and/or nerfed because people are crying over a non-functional skill that shoots everywhere other than the target).

On-Topic: Yes, it sucks. That’s why I swapped to a class that has actual offensive capabilities.

Precision Strike is 5 seconds cooldown.

A and D have 0 second cooldown.

Can you stop already? Strafing in melee. You have a revenant auto-attack to worry about.

You’re Staff. Why are you in melee range?

Staff is melee range. Have you seen a Gust landing from range or a Shockwave, or any auto-attacks?

I’ve seen them land, yes. Gust is broken, but at least you can sorta aim it.
Precision Strike literally targets whatever it wants.
Also, Staff has much more going for it than just those few broken skills. Revenant Sword has three(!) buggy, half-functional skills, and a nerfed auto-attack. The only thing it has going for it is damage and an evade that fails often.

Now, is Staff melee range? No, of course not. You can zone the Revenant with it and make them run through a bunch of garbage.
It’s almost like you don’t even want to try anymore.

Super defense coming from a revenant player which is basically saying “Rev is fine”

Couple of questions:

1.) Does interrupts coming from the pet (Taunt, Knockdowns, etc) proc MoC?

2.) Do you need NM (fortifying bond) for your pet to get remorseless too via fury?

Paulie.6215:

Agrios.9071:

Reason why you see more thiefs is simply because all the thief players could not play their main profession during the season because it was so weak compared to others there.

Thieves have been in the toilet for months. No one can deny that.

NOW they’re competitive and all the crying begins.

Sad that people are complaining instead of L’ing2P.

People who are saying thief is in the toilet are bad thieves since beta. Thieves are always playing the victim.

Thieves were in a good spot as a class, its just that we had the bunker meta thats why they felt inefficient.

But again, there are like 90% bad thieves in the gw2 population which you see a lot on the forums.

StickerHappy.8052:

OFFTOPIC

I can’t post a topic or pm people for being suspended multiple times. I do apologize for this off topic question.

Minor concern about Taunt, Namely the beastly warden trait.

How do you make this work with ranged pets?

yes you could swap into them on melee range but that defeats the purpose of having a range pet right?

This trait sucks so much especially on the Spiders since their f2s are venoms.

I don’t know it just feels inefficient on range pets, hell even the bristleback f2 burst, you have to be at the right distance for taunt to affect your foes.

Can anyone answer me?

sinject.4607:

how is bristleback balanced? can anyone seriously say bristleback doesn’t need a damage reduction?

druid itself is fine, just nerf bristleback damage PLEASE.

bristleback is single target burst, can be reflected, can be dodged, can be LoS’d because it is a projectile.

Are we talking about 1v1 again? you thieves just get buffed in terms of damage. And you guys are complaining about an AI that you can only control 1 skill?

sounds like an l2p issue to me. To be fair ALL ranger pets should be like Bristleback and Smokescale so They can hit their targets.

Soilder.3607:

StickerHappy.8052:

Warlord.9074:

StickerHappy.8052:

Warlord.9074:

You said chain stun not chain CC.

Where on earth did i mention stun?

Even if i take the stun argument, I can bet you 1000 gold right now and I can give other classes that can chain stun.

The point is stun is not the same as soft CC. And Druids/rangers do have plenty of access to stability compared to some other professions, Rangers druids have more. Nice edit by the way. But you can’t edit out your reasoning that their stability is short which is false. Stability only helps vs hard CC like stuns.

What?

2 sources is a lot for you? one is rooted and gated by astral force, the other one is an elite.

Can be corrupted, can be stripped, This is the whole problem with the forums, If you can’t beat a class, you deem it is OP.

CC the druid in astral form = no more heals

Again where did i mention soft CC here? immobilize cripple? where?

Just gonna leave this here:

PVP is 5v5 Conquest, you have a team

Warriors have an abundance of stab, mesmers, revenants, guardians, etc.

Not that I’m complaining about druid, but you’re wrong in regards to them having only two sources of stability.

There’s RaO, Celestial Avatar #5, Signet of the Wild, and Enlargement. Slotting all four of these amounts to an impressive amount of stability, and isn’t an unviable combination either.

Does the meta have that? No.

Noone will trait that in their right mind if you go Marksmanship, you will melt to conditions.

So you will have MM/Druid/x

Wilderness – no boonshare to pet, will not do any damage since you will be playing full bunker. No team support either. High Cd Shouts.

Nature Magic – No might stacking still, no BM. High Cd shouts

BM – 0 condition removal

Signet of the wild, so your utilities are? Daze glyph and signet of stone? 1 stun breaker? cannot see this happening. Solo q only.

But again the game is balanced around 5v5 team conquest.

PS: Noone will run enlargement in competitive play, Clarion Bond offers more esp for the team.

Signet of the wild has a long cast time. Easily interruptable

Warlord.9074:

StickerHappy.8052:

Warlord.9074:

You said chain stun not chain CC.

Where on earth did i mention stun?

Even if i take the stun argument, I can bet you 1000 gold right now and I can give other classes that can chain stun.

The point is stun is not the same as soft CC. And Druids/rangers do have plenty of access to stability compared to some other professions, Rangers druids have more. Nice edit by the way. But you can’t edit out your reasoning that their stability is short which is false. Stability only helps vs hard CC like stuns.

What?

2 sources is a lot for you? one is rooted and gated by astral force, the other one is an elite.

Can be corrupted, can be stripped, This is the whole problem with the forums, If you can’t beat a class, you deem it is OP.

CC the druid in astral form = no more heals

Again where did i mention soft CC here? immobilize cripple? where?

Just gonna leave this here:

PVP is 5v5 Conquest, you have a team

Warriors have an abundance of stab, mesmers, revenants, guardians, etc.

Those pets have been nerfed how many times now… want more?

Warlord.9074:

You said chain stun not chain CC.

Where on earth did i mention stun?

Even if i take the stun argument, I can bet you 1000 gold right now and I can give other classes that can chain stun.

Warlord.9074:

StickerHappy.8052:

Daniel Handler.4816:

There were nerfs to the sustain of most bunkers, the tempest, the chrono, yet druid is fundamentally unchanged. A menders or crusader druid has the same playstyle as prepatch. What gives?

Because druid has clear counters?

You can CC him, only 2 sources of stab, 1 is rooted and 1 is an elite.

You can condi bomb the druid too in astral form, AF #2 and Verdant etching is horrible for condition cleanse.

I feel bad for tempest, it had counters too, focus the ds ele and he will melt. Everyone treats the game as 1v1. It should not have been nerfed for DS.

Chronobunkers on the other hand is laughable, 3v1, 2v1, it can hold the point for a long timmme. lots of stab, plus alacrity, plus cleanses..

If you play as a team (even in solo q, but have teammwork with pugs) eles will melt in a 2v1. Druids can be chain CCed in astral form making their mechanic obsolete. I feel bad for ele being nerfed.

This is the biggest load. The only profession that can chain stun anything due to the amount of CC they have access to is a warrior. Were talking long Stuns, knock downs, and etc and of multiples of them… Druid absolutely annihilates a warrior.

The truth is ANET doesn’t even know what they put in their own game, because they don’t play it they rely on tears of players who they usually don’t listen to to tell them There simply just wasn’t enough druid complains so they don’t even know about it.

If you read my post, PVP is 5V5. The CC wont be coming from you ALONE.

Warrior only one can chain CC?

I can bet you a 1000 gold right now I can give 2 or more classes that can chain CC.

Daniel Handler.4816:

There were nerfs to the sustain of most bunkers, the tempest, the chrono, yet druid is fundamentally unchanged. A menders or crusader druid has the same playstyle as prepatch. What gives?

Because druid has clear counters?

You can CC him, only 2 sources of stab, 1 is rooted and 1 is an elite.

You can condi bomb the druid too in astral form, AF #2 and Verdant etching is horrible for condition cleanse.

I feel bad for tempest, it had counters too, focus the ds ele and he will melt. Everyone treats the game as 1v1. It should not have been nerfed for DS.

Chronobunkers on the other hand is laughable, 3v1, 2v1, it can hold the point for a long timmme. lots of stab, plus alacrity, plus cleanses..

If you play as a team (even in solo q, but have teammwork with pugs) eles will melt in a 2v1. Druids can be chain CCed in astral form making their mechanic obsolete. I feel bad for ele being nerfed.

OFFTOPIC

I can’t post a topic or pm people for being suspended multiple times. I do apologize for this off topic question.

Minor concern about Taunt, Namely the beastly warden trait.

How do you make this work with ranged pets?

yes you could swap into them on melee range but that defeats the purpose of having a range pet right?

This trait sucks so much especially on the Spiders since their f2s are venoms.

I don’t know it just feels inefficient on range pets, hell even the bristleback f2 burst, you have to be at the right distance for taunt to affect your foes.

Protip:

Any build without Stab on overload is not viable. I know this is bad design.

Any decent/team or player will CC you while channeling overloads.

It’s a big “Come CC Me, Sign on your heads”

And we all know that overloads are tempests’ class mechanic.. so…

Just my 2 cents.

Justine.6351:

Lols I love the wrong weapon accusations but that false druid accusation is gold ;-)
Or lol condi thief…ick

Can you link your build justine!

messiah.1908:

did you consider the posibility that ele wont have to use water trait line any more as they have the best condi cleanse above 75% hp so they can play more aggresively and use utility for cleanse ???
if they still take water the amount of cleasne will still be insane

Water is required. Remember to place yourself outside of solo q. That’s not how the game works.

Water is required for support, sharing auras, and increased heals for the Team.

I said this because ANY build can be used for solo q but team q needs specific builds to cater for the team.

Shaogin.2679:

Lol. Not sure why Sneak Gyro is hard to kill for some people, maybe I’m just an OP Reaper. And I succesfully condi bomb the stealthed Engi all the time cause, well, I know where he is thanks to the Gyro. With the upcoming cooldown increase, it will be even easier for me to lock a Scrapper out of his Elite considering he will need to wait even longer for the cool down. Scrappers also lack the mobility and extra benefits from stealth applications that Thieves have access too. And Scrapper survival is already an issue that Anet stated they would be nerfing, while at the same time buffing Thieves. That is why I’m saying it is silly to simply compare just those two abilities and draw the impression that Anet just favors Engies, especially when you haven’t even seen the upcoming patch notes yet. Ya know? Just too much drama for no reason.

You haven’t refuted my points tho. So who is being salty again?

Shaogin.2679:

You’re right, forgot that although Refuge is a short cast, it not being truly instant means you can’t use it while stunned. However I’d also like to point out that it can not be destroyed like the Sneak Gyro, and if you cc the Snek Gyro then you can prevent it from following the Engi then it loses that mobility feature. Now that may not satisfy a salty Thief, but just like Refuge it has counter play. Also needless to say, it’s silly to complain just because someone has something better than your class’ skill or trait. Also it was clearly stated that not all balance changes were revealed yet, making it also very silly to complain about not seeing the nerfs they also clearly stated would be coming.

Without the balance patch, stealth gyro very few if no counterplay compared to refuge.

• Stealth Gyro is mobile, you cannot nuke it with AoEs like Shadow Refuge
• Stealth Gyro follows the engie continously so you can’t KB the engie out of it unlike Shadow Refuge
• Stealth Gyro is instant
• Even if you destroy Sneak Gyro, once the engie has already racked up enough stealth uptime, the engie will still be in stealth (Gyro gives 4 seconds of stealth on 3 second intervals, so 1 second of stealth is eventually added and built up.
• Even with the nerf, Stealth Gyro is still 20 seconds lower on CD vs Shadow Refuge. You can argue Shadow Refuge benefits from Improvisation BUT it is RNG.

So yea.. Thieves are not being salty ( I am not a thief main) but even a decent player can see that Stealth Gyro > Shadow Refuge by a mile.

Browrain.7346:

Probably the most pointless comparison I’ve ever seen.

Pointless or not, I just can’t believe people do not wanna accept Revs AA from sword hits absurdly high, no one wants to admit that,

Alekt.5803:

“In this iteration, we’ll be looking to tone down the revenant’s sword damage in some areas and adjust the weapon’s abilities so that it’s less focused on autoattacking "
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/profession-balance-goals-for-the-winter-2016-update/

I was right.

But but but but…. revenant mains defending such an obvious broken thing… Classic gw2 players..

Azukas.1426:

Seriously everyone needs to stop thier kittening. Since June 23rd every big patch has made us top dog in this game. Wait until you read what’s coming at least before screaming that the sky is falling.

Think about the actual classes that are hurting (warrior/thief). We sit here on our chrono’s laughing while they fail to kill us knowing full well that thier demise is assured. Is a shaving to us while a slight buff to them justified?

Yes.

So let’s wait for the actual notes

Finally. Someone said it. Multiclassing is such an enlightenment right?

Still no SB, WH, Axe buffs still?

That Axe GM.. Horrendous…

Angel de Lyssa.4716:

StickerHappy.8052:

Please do not make scepter a condi only weapon.

I think scepter is really good as it is now as BOTH power and Condition and Hybrid Builds can use it.

Not everyone wants to be part of the braindead condi spamming meta.

Really ? The scepter must be a conditions weapon please, it should not be a hybrid gun, we have the staff for hybrid weapon.

If not want to be the scepter a conditions weapon, then remove all conditions that inflict it and turn it into a berserker weapon (Full dps, like the sword of one hand) both they love people, fewer conditions and direct more dps, other clone weapon like the sword of one hand, direct dps. (I laugh)

Seriously, the scepter must be completely a weapon of damage conditions (such as necro scepter), accompanying the mechanical and features with the trait “confusion” and “torment”, for direct damage we have the sword.

Have you tried scepter in a zerk build? Lemme guess. No.
Have you tried scepter in a viper build? Lemme guess. No.

Scepter works very well with condition damage and power damage.

Adding more conditions on the weapons would kill that diversity since it will be better just to go full conditions since there is a lot of conditions on the weapon.

Please do not make scepter a condi only weapon.

I think scepter is really good as it is now as BOTH power and Condition and Hybrid Builds can use it.

Not everyone wants to be part of the braindead condi spamming meta.

Nova Stiker.8396:

You can nerf it ArenaNet BUT only when you figure out why it’s so good.

Answers to why it’s so good below, NO CHEATING!

https://youtu.be/zzPLYGWyeE0

It all depends.

Some weapon skills do not have conditions on them, making celestial deal lower damage.

If you try that with warrior auto attack, it would scale better.

Another factor is the skill modifiers, a lot of skills do not scale well with the power stat.

Example: Ranger Shortbow scales really bad with the power stat. Even if you put full zerk gear on you.

Third Reason is that people blame it on various things, if they are bad and lose to people in pvp. Like a lot of people here on the forums.

BurrTheKing.8571:

I can accept no Fast Hands baseline, heck I could even support it being removed, if the devs are willing to make significant changes to weapon skills. I’m kinda afraid that these changes will involve making them easier to use and will just make Warrior even simpler to play. I pray that the sustain changes are skill based, the one positive of the current state of Warrior is that even doing moderately well gets you respect.

Here’s a quick story.

Years ago rangers pushed for pet skills skills to be controlled via f1-f4, guess what the devs said? It would make ranger harder to play.

Palimpalim.2063:

Diamondskin is Meta for eles for a reason, cause u guys boosted condicancer to a point of being completly ridiculous. So not using diamondskin is not viable as an ele in pvp.
Instead of nerfing it, cause the condikiddies are whining about it, u should think about, why it is used by nearly every ele.

Oh, the anti-ele crusaders are the problem.

This is the main issue, condition spamming has always been strong, you can never outcleanse conditions now.

Please buff ranger shortbow.

Pyriall.1683:

StickerHappy.8052:

Their cooldowns are extremely long.

• Signet of Renewal – 60 Seconds for a stun break and condition removal which most likely kill the pet VS Signet of Stamina (Removes All Conditions 45 Second CD Untraited)

• Signet of Stone – 80 Seconds for a 6 Second Physical Damage Mitigation VS Endure Pain (60 Second CD, yes its only 4 seconds Physical Damage Mitigation but Also A Stun Breaker)

• Signet of The Wild/Enlargement – 60 Seconds of the Damage Increase, Very Susceptible while Casting VS Dolyak Signet (10 Stacks of Stability, Instant Cast, Stun Breaker)

They have good actives don’t get me wrong

BUT

The Signet Trait Competes with Moment of Clarity.

I think a shave to the CDs will be great even just 10%

OR

Make Clarion Bond a minor, Signet Trait an Adept Major, then Alpha Strike is baseline.

What you guys think?

Sounds like you’re forced into a choice. That’s what all traits should be. There should never be an obvious choice on a trait, that is poor design. Unfortunately for the most part, in GW2, there are poor trait choices and the best trait is obvious.

Exactly my point, why would you choose Signet traits over MoC?

UPDATE:

I have read the balance goals and to be honest I am happy for everyone. Still lacking though in many aspects.

I am just not sure tweaking acrobatics is the best way to go. They have to do something other than traits, like utilities for example because if Acro proves to be so good, everyone WILL BE FORCED OR PRESSURED to take it, killing build diversity again.

Sustained Damage is welcome tho.

Shadow Dragon.1469:

StickerHappy.8052:

Shovel Face.4512:

StickerHappy.8052:

Serious Thought.5394:

Cut
.

Sorry dude, I was planning to reply regarding your post, But I have a 900 second post gate. I have forgotten to reply after entirely

You provide some good info although I disagree on some.

The comparison on rev is so so in general, we all know that rev is such a broken class, heavy armor, high boon uptime, high damage, decent sustain, no counterplay heal, and so on.

You can compare any damage class to revenant and that class would fail in comparison.

I do agree that thief needs higher hp since it relies on stealth on active defenses. 15 Initiative is too much, why? you wanna see evade spamming thieves even more?

About balancing for pros, everyone starts as a noob, even the pros started as noobs, I do not see why new players can’t practice to be better and we should just make everything easier in a sense.

So you guys are saying we should balance around casuals then?

Are you seriously complaing about Thief evades? Can we first put light on the fact Druids have like a 7s Invulnerability? Or the fact that every class has some form of access to protection and invulnerability? Or how every class has some form of regeneration?

If you actually read the post made after this one, I said I am actually fine by it, the one thing I am concerned about is people will complain about it here again on the forums like how everybody complains all the time then thief will get nerfed again even more on all the wrong places.

Please, everyone is talking and discussing constructively here.

PS: Druids do not have 7 seconds of invulnerability. #factcheckplease.

Sorry I just hate when people make digs when someone is slightly off its a 6sec damage mitigation big whoop on the difference there smh not saying I agree with his point but they do have that signet and another utility skill (that rangers don’t usually take) that can give then another 6 seconds of not worrying about damage plus all the cc’s Druids can output on top of being immune (although the they aren’t immune with the signet which is why I don’t fully agree with him you can still apply conditions and cc assuming they don’t have stability) but still it’s an uphill battle.

It is a big difference when you say its an Invulnerability (Immune to ALL) when something is not. That was the idea I was pointing out. Not the 1 sec difference.

That is what clearly what is wrong with pvp, using unsubstantiated facts without learning how to play first(learning counters, learning what skills do, etc)

Druids DO NOT HAVE INVULNERABILITY. That was my point. Signet of Stone and Protect Me are not Invulnerabilities.

Source: 2000 games played with Ranger.

Anyway, back on topic.

Shovel Face.4512:

StickerHappy.8052:

Serious Thought.5394:

Cut
.

Sorry dude, I was planning to reply regarding your post, But I have a 900 second post gate. I have forgotten to reply after entirely

You provide some good info although I disagree on some.

The comparison on rev is so so in general, we all know that rev is such a broken class, heavy armor, high boon uptime, high damage, decent sustain, no counterplay heal, and so on.

You can compare any damage class to revenant and that class would fail in comparison.

I do agree that thief needs higher hp since it relies on stealth on active defenses. 15 Initiative is too much, why? you wanna see evade spamming thieves even more?

About balancing for pros, everyone starts as a noob, even the pros started as noobs, I do not see why new players can’t practice to be better and we should just make everything easier in a sense.

So you guys are saying we should balance around casuals then?

Are you seriously complaing about Thief evades? Can we first put light on the fact Druids have like a 7s Invulnerability? Or the fact that every class has some form of access to protection and invulnerability? Or how every class has some form of regeneration?

If you actually read the post made after this one, I said I am actually fine by it, the one thing I am concerned about is people will complain about it here again on the forums like how everybody complains all the time then thief will get nerfed again even more on all the wrong places.

Please, everyone is talking and discussing constructively here.

PS: Druids do not have 7 seconds of invulnerability. #factcheckplease.

Their cooldowns are extremely long.

• Signet of Renewal – 60 Seconds for a stun break and condition removal which most likely kill the pet VS Signet of Stamina (Removes All Conditions 45 Second CD Untraited)

• Signet of Stone – 80 Seconds for a 6 Second Physical Damage Mitigation VS Endure Pain (60 Second CD, yes its only 4 seconds Physical Damage Mitigation but Also A Stun Breaker)

• Signet of The Wild/Enlargement – 60 Seconds of the Damage Increase, Very Susceptible while Casting VS Dolyak Signet (10 Stacks of Stability, Instant Cast, Stun Breaker)

They have good actives don’t get me wrong

BUT

The Signet Trait Competes with Moment of Clarity.

I think a shave to the CDs will be great even just 10%

OR

Make Clarion Bond a minor, Signet Trait an Adept Major, then Alpha Strike is baseline.

What you guys think?

Ario.8964:

Sticker, yes s/d can still be a thing (it’s my main set for thief) but it won’t be the evade spam for days unkillable while killing everyone else that you made it out to be.

Weakness spam can be done fairly easily actually, the issue is it’s hard to maintain vs a thief with EA as they will shed those condis while you try to attack them if they are smart.

Making ini 15 wouldn’t add more evade spam to the set unless people went into acro and gave up on either the damage from trickery or crit strikes. I’d be more concerned about d/p if I were you in this situation.

Only reason anyone should complain about evade is when anet makes evades do something stupid like crit for 4k damage or stack condis. But that’s why I was upset with dd design in the first place. Defensive evades are fine (cause you can’t do damage if all you are doing is evading) but they should be used as defensive tools and I’m not sure anet gets that. Really they should just buff weapon damage on thief and then remove the damage type dodges because that was a silly design from the start (giving each a different type of utility would be awesome but doing damage should never have crossed their minds.)

Besides the people who will complain about evades are the ones that don’t know how to time skills and just try to just spam to hit and when it doesn’t work they complain about fighting someone who knows what they’re doing.

I’m slightly distracted so if my post went into a rant I apologize and I hope everything made sense :/

Edit: Azukas, while I’m very happy you recognized the fact that toker played thief for fun on that match and it had no effect on the outcome I disagree with you on the importance of “hard counters”. I personally feel it limits build and class diversity and such a thing imo should never be in the game. Soft counters are good because then it’s about playing what will give you an advantage but shutting out an entire build or class just because you play something is not good design from where I stand. Other than that I agree with what you said overall.

Okay fair points, but I have no idea why I am the only one proposing more build diversity for thieves to perform different roles.

Yes the problem is the meta, we all know that. But thief is practically stuck to 1 role so they can’t do anything about the meta.

If they had atleast 2-3 more options available to them, I believe thief can play accordingly to whatever meta comes about.

So that solves 50% of the problem, but the other 50% which are bad thieves will always be a problem, but atleast we get to a general consensus.

Serious Thought.5394:

I fail to see the evade spam. Do you mean Staff? Because thats insanely easy to combat. Death Blossom? They want to take Trickery for that Bewildering Ambush. And that too is insanely easy to fight.

Evade spam would be from endurance, and if thats a problem research Weakness. Also, I was right. Someone would argue the very obvious minor moves Anet could make that would not even buff us- just shift power of the more confident players.

Thief has evade spam, but for it they do no damage and are murdered by weakness. This is a condi heavy meta, if you don’t have weakness you should not be playing with condis.

S/D SB? don’t tell me this set does no damage, oh and yes some people use this set.

You do know that you can’t inflict weakness when you evade that said attack right?
Oh, if it was that easy then perma weakness spamming would be a thing by now.

Acrobatics thief was a thing before remember? now make ini 15 and add more evade spam to it.

It’s fine by me but you just have to take all things into consideration. If that happens, I am sure a lot of people will whine about evade here on the forums.

Serious Thought.5394:

Cut
.

Sorry dude, I was planning to reply regarding your post, But I have a 900 second post gate. I have forgotten to reply after entirely

You provide some good info although I disagree on some.

The comparison on rev is so so in general, we all know that rev is such a broken class, heavy armor, high boon uptime, high damage, decent sustain, no counterplay heal, and so on.

You can compare any damage class to revenant and that class would fail in comparison.

I do agree that thief needs higher hp since it relies on stealth on active defenses. 15 Initiative is too much, why? you wanna see evade spamming thieves even more?

About balancing for pros, everyone starts as a noob, even the pros started as noobs, I do not see why new players can’t practice to be better and we should just make everything easier in a sense.

So you guys are saying we should balance around casuals then?

Krysard.1364:

Thief isnt undertuned, its just that this meta isnt favorable for them, but as you said, if you know how to play it its totally viable

This was the bulk of my observations.

Hey do not get me wrong, I feel bad for thieves bec they have been stuck for 1 role in 3 years.

More Build diversity will help thieves a lot. Maybe they will be wanted for other roles they could fill.

It’s the meta, and it’s bad players.

@Sorel

So, you are saying that thief is in a good place right now, the only thing that holds it back is the state of the meta correct?

And let’s not forget maybe just open up more build diversity and weapon diversity and role diversity.

Imo, I just think there are a lot of bad thieves, esp here on the forums.

Another observation I had is, thief is very hard to utilize to full in solo q, I think organized teams are where thieves shine best.

Ario.8964:

foste, I think we are arguing the same thing. Daredevil did get defensive and sustain buffs (especially in the form of condi removal) BUT compared to other classes it was underwhelming which is why I too was disappointed with daredevil.

Imo daredevil should never have existed because acro should never have been gutted but there’s nothing we can do about it now.

Sticker,
The reason they can sway matches that well is 1) because they are good and good thieves will still do some serious good for your team 2) because their team is competent enough to support them and cover weaknesses. If the start a snowball with a good play their teams are good enough to push on that advantage and then they proceed to dominate the match.

Thief in comparison to other classes is not as good. However with the right player on the thief I still believe they can be one of the most valuable classes on a team.

The team is a no brainer.

But all those matches they played on the stream were solo q, but still they did amazingly well. Close matches too.

@Cynz

Those matches I watched were indeed solo q.

foste.3098:

StickerHappy.8052:

I appreciate all the posts.

But still the verdict stands, how come those two players I mentioned can play their class really well, amidst all these weaknesses you mentioned?

Really well to the point they can dominate matches.

With their performance, I could barely see some of the stuff you guys mentioned here.

Like i said idk who those 2 are or if they play solo, but there is a simple way to find out why we all wrote the above and how it all works (falls apart). You know what it is, all it takes is a non-occupied character slot.

Sindernerr plays for Orange Logo.

Don’t get me wrong, I can’t play thief really well, it is the least class I played with Rev.

Im just wondering is the issue more of like “A get good issue” meaning, it could be there just a lot of bad thieves?

Again, I am not saying thieves do not need tweaks/buffs etc.

I appreciate all the posts.

But still the verdict stands, how come those two players I mentioned can play their class really well, amidst all these weaknesses you mentioned?

Really well to the point they can dominate matches.

With their performance, I could barely see some of the stuff you guys mentioned here.

Yes, we all read about how thief is underpowered, etc.

While I do agree thieves need more build diversity because they are locked into the +1 Decapper role.

I also do agree thieves’ need more weapon diversity/buffs, you HAVE to take SB for mobility to do your role.

But, whenever I watch Sindernerr or Vallun’s Streams, thieves are a different beast and can overturn a match very quickly.

They also play their class very very well, and I just could not see how they are playing with their class on par with the other elite specs.

So what is really the problem with thieves? As far as I can see, basing it from those players, Yes thieves need a bit of work, buffing/tweaking/more diversity but I just don’t see how some people here on the forums make it like thieves are the worst spec.

No flaming please. I was just really curious about the situation of thieves.

Angel de Lyssa.4716:

With a few changes, we will have more pressure (conditions) with the scepter if you prefer to play with two weapons, for example scepter/sword or scepter/torch (if you do not want to play with the staff or greatsword). In addition, the skill AA of scepter Necro or mace Revenant, on each skill AA always inflict a condition, however, on the skill AA scepter mesmer now only inflict conditions on the two first AA skill, and with little durations.

Moreover, we not have the clone shows that replaces phantasm if we control three phantasms.

I LOVE YOUR IDEAS.

Few things:

1.) I suggest remove Torment on AA, Change it to something else like cripple, weakness, etc, we have so much torment. We have the number 2 for block, Maimed which is a lot. OR unique effects like boon hate, boon removal, or “next hit does X” This promotes more variety and just mindless spamming of conditions. We don’t need any braindead gameplay, what we need is more Engaging ones.

2.) Having Number 2 a full block will need to have its cd increased UNLESS, if only becomes a full block vs ranged/projectiles, melee range is 1 hit. Like the Ranger GS. Makes it balanced and have counterplay.

3.) Counterspell, remove torment. It’s just too much, A condi mesmer can put atleast 20 stacks of torment on you with just the block and maimed. It’s too much aids, put more engaging mechanics on it.

are you kittening kidding me?

2 more months without balance?

Since October 23 there was no major balance changes.

Don’t tell me we wait till March just for a SMALL Balance patch?

Which is majority will be TOOLTIP FIXES

If this will be the case, I am out. 3 years of incompetence from the devs/ uppr management here.

Don’t tell me, B&S will be their scapegoat for this failure.

Gravity Well is 3 pulses, if you evade 1 you can still get hit by 2 pulses.

Warding lines and Rings need stability to be broken out of, you can’t evade them.

Seyiwaji.4082:

Please only for pvp decrease the pet range AI enemy follow to 1500.

A ranger quitting and his pet still harassing, even if the master is over 1500 range…. com’on wtf.

I Don’t get why this would be a bad thing for you, Wherever the ranger is, and if he gets assaulted, He will be on a disadvantage, bec he has no pet.