Guild Wars 2

And here I thought Anet wanted to reduce the amount of grind with hot to value player time…

We were told before that if this 2/1 thing happens it is possible we will get a new 3rd map.

Hope they revamp desert before it makes any comeback.

Blaqatak.1395:

100% agree.

People should be punished for stacking on top of each other like mindless lemmings paying no attention to positioning.

Target limits make zerging mindless & chokes irrelevant.

You blame the players for a dev created combat system where “turtling” is required for skills to be useful because that’s how abilities operate?

Never had this problem in city of heroes because we are able to target with support, support skills lasted longer than 3 seconds so players could move around with extra buffs and we had many ways to bust up stacking without aoe spam.

The op wants more aoe spam, but the game needs less aoe spam and more of an emphasis on support skills like better healing and such…

JediSange.1645:

Backround: I’m a developer and understand the answer to this might be technical in nature. I’m assuming the sheer amount of hit detection becomes too great for the servers to handle. ArenaNet has a world-class technical background and I’d love to hear insight on this topic. But for the sake of discussion, let’s assume that is not the reason.

Consistently I see people complaining about two things:

- Inability to defend keeps vs a zerg
- Zergs dominating the WvW scene and generally being unfun

I play on Yak’s Bend and consistently get into small “Havok Groups” only to run into a zerg and die. To me, both of these issues would be solved if targets no longer had a max target limit. If 100 people tried to go through a choke point and we had 3 Elementalists bombing it, and wells ticking… well, suddenly that’s not viable. Suddenly you have to find other ways to win.

The idea here is that if every server has 100 (arbitrary number, I think it’s 300?) people, the goal shouldn’t be to get 100 v 100 fights. The goal should be to split those people up in efficient ways to win on multiple fronts. I think the “ideal” WvW state is to have havok groups a plenty with 5v5 or 10v10 skirmishes happening all over the map in organic ways. Guardian walls help prevent arrow carts, heavy AOE from Ele/Necro help defend chokes, etc etc. To me, we should be designing systems that punish zerging, not reward it. The less empowered small groups feel in their contribution, the more people will get driven away from WvW. Then you have a mega-power like BG emerge. Just a mass of people consistently zerging. And go figure — now a lot of them are quitting because “wvw is dead”, etc.

I personally really enjoy WvW and would really like to have a meaningful way to do small-scale skirmishes that are organic (e.g. Not some 10v10 arena). I wouldn’t mind GvG making a comeback from GW1, of course, but I would really like to make the best of this system.

TL;DR Remove target limit on skills to punish zerging instead of rewarding it.

ANYWAYS. Thoughts/discussion?

You can’t “punish zerging” in a mode designed for zergs primarily.

The idea doesn’t force or encourage players to not zerg. If anything, it will work against the small groups because players will just zerg up more for protection and aoe things in seconds. Essentially this will create a much worse aoe “nuke” arms race instead.

Yes, you run into groups of various sizes, but small skirmishes happen all the time.

Players complaining need to get better organized and use better tactics.

Bolded part- As a game developer you should try to understand the premise of rvr. The main appeal of wvw is the mass battles, but there needs to be limitations in how “things” function, such as aoe limits… As is, wvw is plagued with aoe attacks and support is undervalued, so maybe look to improve support roles as opposed to add even more damage.

Tumult.2578:

No, it tells you that while I agree with the OP’s many statements on healing and how it has changed, it does not address the simple fact that many of us now have level 80 healers, not geared for healing, that we never wanted.

Well you didn’t state that.

Your last post assumes it changes core classes and it doesn’t… We are getting future elites with new weapons and new trait lines and new skills… to form different roles and fill gaps in combat style. You are also confusing a “for example” of the different styles of healing, that’s not a precise wishlist. Just something I threw out there to make a point, but the basic ideas could be fleshed out so its more sensible… Theory crafting mostly.

Well we have more heal specs so let’s make them better because they are not going away.

Tumult.2578:

Sorry, but when we picked our characters classes, we were not told that they would be changed to only fit specific roles. I have a good 4k hours on my Ranger and now it’s just a crafter only.
I will never play a Ranger as a healer, ever. We should have been offered a level 80 character replacement as a minimum when this was done. Ranger as it was used, was destroyed.

This tells me you didn’t bother to read the op.

Crysto.7089:

1. Heal support is not required for anything in the game, including raids. You have other options wherever a fully heal focused character would be used. You have the option of playing it, yes, but then you only have yourself to blame if you play it and don’t enjoy it.

2. Your proposed changes seem to mainly remove skill/strategy from the healing equation. I suppose that would mean “smoother” in the sense that it becomes idiot-proof when every heal becomes “wash the pain away” and warrior shouts, but it also becomes much less rewarding mechanically speaking and would require a severe reduction in numbers.

3. There a couple builds/tactics that accomplish this already in the game that you can try out.

Shout Heal Warrior

Healing Engineer (med kit or flamethrower+edf+reaper vampiric aura)

Healing Elementalist

Well the devs wanted healing to be required, so we have more heal support. Guess this all means we need to make it actually required since the devs didn’t hit the target the first time…

The topic here is the clunky and awkward heal role designs. Yes, things could be smoother for sure. Idiot proof these healing styles are not, all you’re doing is looking at it from an isolated point of view.

Malediktus.9250:

Swagger.1459:

They should make it 54 LI for each armor weight instead of a standard 150.

You do not want people to build all 3 armor weights at the same time, unless you want the t6 mats to become more expensive

There are going to be a bunch of requirements to craft each set and things can be reevaluated anyway.

The point is that 54 LI per set is reasonable, a blanket 150 is not.

We could take all unique materials required for legendary gears and put them into reward tracks. So instead of do dungeon for “gift of X” or do hot pve for “gift of X”, we take those and make them wvw rewards instead.

I would exclude “common” materials that can be purchased with gold or farmed.

Great idea right?

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

I think the issue is that the OP is expecting a traditional healer role, which more or less requires a traditional tank, too (or at least, conventional mechanics for which players developed the role originally). I like that GW2 hasn’t felt compelled to follow the 40-year old tropes from paper and pencil games in which there’s a close range fighter, a ranged erm ranger, a ranged defense/restore caster, and a ranged offense/buff caster… and all sorts of hybrids. Instead, every class is (mostly) self contained, with a range of things that makes them useful & fun.

Hi Ill!

GW2 professions are hybrid by nature due to the fact you can switch up elements of your build. Elites were specifically designed to add more role tool kits for professions to choose from and to fill combat role gaps. The next set of elites will also follow this pattern of role and gap filling. The mention of the professions and heal roles at the end was to highlight the types of healing that “fit in” better to the overall combat designs.

My primary concern is the actual design and play mechanics of said healing builds I mentioned. Arenanet is transitioning away from the “Damage” meta and I’m asking for “smoother” healing mechanics that work better for this movement heavy game.

Not sure what professions you have, but take your heal specced Druid, a heal specced Rev Ventari and heal specced Ele Water/Tempest… and focus primarily on healing support in all movement based combat scenarios in pve, spvp and wvw. Spend some time trying it out and let me know how you felt after and how effective you actually were. We could even run some stuff together for fun if you wish so I can share my perspective better.

DeceiverX.8361:

Some people love playing support/healing roles, OP.

No, the game wasn’t designed to have any profession fill those roles. If that was the case, ANet lied in its manifesto and failed miserably.

Elite specializations were designed to introduce role tool kits for each profession and to fill combat styles with weapons and skills.

The true goal for the game was that any comp could beat any encounter, which we saw with dungeons.

Since people raged about the “zerk meta” ANet implemented hard roles for professions to perform in raids.

And now we have support-based builds based on an open-ended framework which gets enforced due to the design of the content.

See, what people kitten ingly failed to recognize is that any role-based design is strict enforcement of a player-driven meta; that’s it. It doesn’t make the roles any more enjoyable, it just enforces the dependency and puts more strict emphasis on having the correct comp.

People brought this on themselves demanding for these roles to be mandatory in play or have such an emphasis put on them; there will always be a meta, and people will always enjoy playing in certain ways. That’s just how things work, because pushing for efficiency and recognizing and subsequently following patterns and procedures for success is human nature and part of intelligence.

The devs made a conscious design decision to make content more difficult and to start moving away from the “damage” meta with hot because it was unhealthy. Those were clearly stated, so it’s not just some imaginary player enforced ruling, it’s the devs starting to transition to improved content and improved roles.

Bolded

lil devils x.6071:

Swagger.1459:

Tolmos.8395:

Hello! I had a quick question, and can’t seem to find much info online about this.

I have been gone for a while and am currently updating my client to join back into the fray! When I last played the game, WvW was not considered “PvP” by Arenanet. The PvP class tweaks did not affect it, the gear was not normalized so PvE gear disparities were present, and whatever gear/stats you brought with you from the PvE side of the game was all you had for WvW.

Is this still the case, or did it ever get upgraded to PvP status? I always thought this was a bit… strange, and then I heard that some WvW patches were in the works, so I wanted to see what the news was on this front.

Thanks!

World vs world and structured player vs player are player vs player modes… You may have missed the memo, but world vs world is modeled after realm vs realm, not arena player vs player or guild vs guild.

It’s really super easy to gear up, so get out there champ and get your gear!

Unfortunately, the devs do not put out separate balance patches for world vs world, structured player vs player and player vs environment.

Seems like structured player vs player would be best for you, so go try that out and good luck!

I even found some nice write ups for you…

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World_versus_World

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Structured_PvP

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Player_versus_Player

We know that is what they did, HOWEVER, that was NOT what Anet told the players who filled out the surveys at the time they were going to do. They chose to do that later, so of course players keep checking back in to see if they ever kept their word. All you are doing is saying “hey look Anet did this instead of what they originally said they were going to do.” ( Players already know that , considering that is why they left). They already know about small scale PVP, we had that already on GW1, what they said they were going to give us was large scale PvP, like we asked for. They just haven’t come through yet.

No, both you and tol don’t know.

/looks at wvw…

/looks at your post saying you didn’t get a large scale player vs player mode…

/looks back at wvw which was modeled after rvr in DAoC…

I’m sorry that large scale pvp in gw2 doesn’t meet your expectations of large scale pvp.

Tolmos.8395:

Hello! I had a quick question, and can’t seem to find much info online about this.

I have been gone for a while and am currently updating my client to join back into the fray! When I last played the game, WvW was not considered “PvP” by Arenanet. The PvP class tweaks did not affect it, the gear was not normalized so PvE gear disparities were present, and whatever gear/stats you brought with you from the PvE side of the game was all you had for WvW.

Is this still the case, or did it ever get upgraded to PvP status? I always thought this was a bit… strange, and then I heard that some WvW patches were in the works, so I wanted to see what the news was on this front.

Thanks!

World vs world and structured player vs player are player vs player modes… You may have missed the memo, but world vs world is modeled after realm vs realm, not arena player vs player or guild vs guild.

It’s really super easy to gear up, so get out there champ and get your gear!

Unfortunately, the devs do not put out separate balance patches for world vs world, structured player vs player and player vs environment.

Seems like structured player vs player would be best for you, so go try that out and good luck!

I even found some nice write ups for you…

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World_versus_World

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Structured_PvP

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Player_versus_Player

I don’t know folks, and I don’t have all the answers, but I’m just not seeing these types of linking match ups as healthy for the long run.

Maps seem sparce of players most times of day and night, and that’s not good. Linking is ok for now, but I don’t think it will hold up player interest as is.

I’ll be honest and say that I like linking, but I just don’t think it will have a long term positive effect on wvw and it’s kind of messy. Even in tier one with linking there were not many queues. Most of the time you could jump in whenever and there were not many lock out periods.

These are huge emptier maps a lot of the time and it’s just frustrating, so at this point maybe it’s time to do a 3 faction style? Perhaps go with 3 EB and 3 alpine and 3 dbl running at the same time? Y’all can build some new maps and switch them around later, but maybe now is the time to get all the players into one space and work out balancing for 3 sides instead all these various match ups?

They should make it 54 LI for each armor weight instead of a standard 150.

Razor.9872:

Swagger.1459:

Safer Saviour.9685:

Do not conflate ‘support’ with ‘healing’.

Support in Guild Wars 2 comes in many forms. For instance in raids, your DPS comes from classes like Tempest or Necromancer. All of the heavy professions have lower DPS in comparison but all of the heavy professions are valued. Why? For the support and utility that they bring. None of them are ‘healers’ (yes, Ventari does need work).

Likewise, you will very rarely see a raid without a Chronomancer, yet Mesmers have the lowest DPS in the game by quite a margin. Chronomancers are some of the best tanks in the game and even when tanking isn’t needed, they bring a boatload of utility – of cooldown-reduction, ability-speeding SUPPORTIVE utility that’s essential.

On to healing specifically:

Healing in Guild Wars 2 is in its fledgling stages and I hope to see it develop, but for me, it would be a nightmare to see it develop into what you describe. Additionally, I like the core ‘feel’ of both Druid and Tempest healers. I like how the two are distinct from one another and provide different sorts of heals, which means that they are valuable in different ways. For sustained healing throughout an even-tempered fight, Tempests are lovely, but for burst heals in a fight with a more erratic tempo, Druids are awesome. In some fights (like Matthias Gabrel), having both can really help.

And I will stress here that Druids are not supposed to be ‘fluid’ healers. They are burst healers. They are there to help deal with moments of high pressure. They do that well.

Do you want to niggle about wording?

Yes, “fledgling” stage of introducing healing and it’s evident and it has a long way to go.

I don’t care what the Druid was supposed to be. I care about healing my teams properly. I care about not needing to apologizing to teammates because heals are not ready. I care about having a good experience healing, not having to chase down players with reticles and tomes while everyone needs to move like a heard of cats by combat design.

What you describe sounds like you want healing to become passive and point-n-click to the point that you don’t have to care Where you are healing, so much as That you are healing.

These suggestions fit in pretty well considering there is lack of player targeting and players are constantly moving. There is nothing passive about needing to play your role properly, and there is more than just healing in closed quarters or in stationary encounters. You could put a bit more thought into how combat unfolds in the various modes.

If I am correct with my analysis of this, then I thoroughly disagree. I love that healing in this game is a dynamic process; I get to experience the same ‘engaged’ sense that normally only dps-roles get to do.

Are you really saying that playing dps is a “dynamic process”? Seriously?

Using all your heals and then getting mad that you are out of them when you team needs you…

I like this assumption.

is like using all your damaging attacks when the enemy is invulnerable, and then getting mad that you hardly did any damage.

It is a matter of timing and conservation that adds a flavorful element to healing that I deeply enjoy.

You obviously miss the premise of this thread and are not look at combat as a whole.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Swagger.1459:

Aidan Savage.2078:

GW2 does not have trinity. The sooner you realize the game means for you to be doing damage ALONG with whatever else you do, the more enjoyable it gets.

And the devs already stated they wanted to move away from the “zerker” aka “damage only meta” because it was unhealthy.

Maybe the devs had a different vision for professions and combat early on, but we all know every profession has been forced into damage roles for the most part. While that’s great for all the players who play dps in every game, it shafts those of us who like diversity. Unfortunately the professions and combat in gw2 are still much more on the “one dimensional” damage side, and until better roles are offered it will always stay as such.

There are shifts happening in game with improved encounters, more gear options, more diversity with elite specializations… so we can’t sit here and pretend those changes aren’t intentional. Also, we can’t dismiss the fact more heal roles were introduced.

Clearly you cant understand what I said. You should probably go read my post again before making another one. Moving away from the zerker meta doesnt mean they’re going to go to an opposite extreme. Regardless of what else you do, the game INTENDS for you to be inflicting damage. That’s how encounters are built. kitten dont die because you heal it to death.

Sure we have trinity, it’s called “Damage, Control, Support”.

The devs have been aware of the issues with profession and combat designs… Quote from 2 years ago…

“We are trying to take steps to address some of the dominance of Berserker/DPS players. More info next week, I think.

Jon"

HoT was designed to make a shift away from the “Damage” meta and improve other roles including heal support… Watch the beginning of the video.

http://dulfy.net/2015/09/25/gw2-druid-ranger-elite-specialization-livestream-reveal/

Heal support is not smooth, not as fun to play and needs a heck of a lot more improvements than other roles here.

Soren.9316:

Swagger.1459:

To be fair…

Light mention in 20k word patch notes that are easy to miss and don’t stand out.

“Once the reward track feature exits beta” is ambiguous.

It’s not ambiguous. They put up a poll asking if we thought reward tracks were good enough to come out of beta. The community voted yes, so ANet did exactly what they said they would, and logically did it in the next available update. GoB going to a track wasn’t a secret… If people can’t be bothered to look at the patch notes and focus in on the mode of gameplay they play in then that’s on them.

Without an actual date of said “exits beta” it becomes ambiguous.

Oh yeah, that 20k word patch note…

Safer Saviour.9685:

Do not conflate ‘support’ with ‘healing’.

Support in Guild Wars 2 comes in many forms. For instance in raids, your DPS comes from classes like Tempest or Necromancer. All of the heavy professions have lower DPS in comparison but all of the heavy professions are valued. Why? For the support and utility that they bring. None of them are ‘healers’ (yes, Ventari does need work).

Likewise, you will very rarely see a raid without a Chronomancer, yet Mesmers have the lowest DPS in the game by quite a margin. Chronomancers are some of the best tanks in the game and even when tanking isn’t needed, they bring a boatload of utility – of cooldown-reduction, ability-speeding SUPPORTIVE utility that’s essential.

On to healing specifically:

Healing in Guild Wars 2 is in its fledgling stages and I hope to see it develop, but for me, it would be a nightmare to see it develop into what you describe. Additionally, I like the core ‘feel’ of both Druid and Tempest healers. I like how the two are distinct from one another and provide different sorts of heals, which means that they are valuable in different ways. For sustained healing throughout an even-tempered fight, Tempests are lovely, but for burst heals in a fight with a more erratic tempo, Druids are awesome. In some fights (like Matthias Gabrel), having both can really help.

And I will stress here that Druids are not supposed to be ‘fluid’ healers. They are burst healers. They are there to help deal with moments of high pressure. They do that well.

Do you want to niggle about wording?

Yes, “fledgling” stage of introducing healing and it’s evident and it has a long way to go.

I don’t care what the Druid was supposed to be. I care about healing my teams properly. I care about not needing to apologizing to teammates because heals are not ready. I care about having a good experience healing, not having to chase down players with reticles and tomes while everyone needs to move like a heard of cats by combat design.

FrizzFreston.5290:

Swagger.1459:

Well, more heal support specs were introduced for reasons with hot so I’m asking for them to be improved.

Healing is not pointless.

Playing any roles should not be a frustration experience, but that’s exactly what it feels like healing on any profession in any mode.

They introduced the option yes, but the reality is that healing alone is not going to do much for you outside raids. Not that healing is pointless in general. I played support throughout this game’s life and I found that when I’m the one doing damage whilst also providing support for my allies works alot better than going full support healbot which seems to be the direction you want support to take.

More healing will not make the options much better. It will make people dodge even less than they do, stand more in circles, stand more outside of circles, be more stationary and require even more healing. Your ideas are basically just making healing -> more healing. I don’t see that that would make a very great design.

If anything frustrates is not that healing is not enough, it’s more that players don’t know how to take advantage of what other players are supporting them with.

The Druid, Ventari and Tempest are already part of the game. I’m asking for improvements to those roles. They play and perform awkwardly by design. Ele is most fluid, but still not as quality as it could be.

As long as they remain I’ll keep asking for repairs. I’m not a dps player, I’m a support oriented player who has played various support roles in games. I can say hands down that healing support here is the least favorite experience I’ve ever had. I’m also not alone with these sentiments.

Aidan Savage.2078:

GW2 does not have trinity. The sooner you realize the game means for you to be doing damage ALONG with whatever else you do, the more enjoyable it gets.

And the devs already stated they wanted to move away from the “zerker” aka “damage only meta” because it was unhealthy.

Maybe the devs had a different vision for professions and combat early on, but we all know every profession has been forced into damage roles for the most part. While that’s great for all the players who play dps in every game, it shafts those of us who like diversity. Unfortunately the professions and combat in gw2 are still much more on the “one dimensional” damage side, and until better roles are offered it will always stay as such.

There are shifts happening in game with improved encounters, more gear options, more diversity with elite specializations… so we can’t sit here and pretend those changes aren’t intentional. Also, we can’t dismiss the fact more heal roles were introduced.

FrizzFreston.5290:

Healing support isn’t something this game is designed around. You’re better of supporting with things that help your teammates do more damage or mitigate more damage than trying to heal them. That usually means they failed a dodge or were in the wrong location, stand in circles and i dunno what else.

And support is always very dependable on the skill of your supportees. You could do the best job supporting but someone who is alive but doesn’t do much, doesn’t dodge doesn’t use his heal skill is going to be a huge burden to keep alive. And then you might come to the conclusion that support is bad, but it is just players who don’t know how to get the most out of it themselves. Especially in the open world.

That’s why most support healers aren’t good anyway, you can mitigate most damage with just dodging and a healing skill. The rest is what a support does, like stunbreak, heal conditions apply weakening conditions CC reflect walls and spreading auras.

Healing alone is rather pointless in gw2.

Well, more heal support specs were introduced for reasons with hot so I’m asking for them to be improved.

Healing is not pointless.

Playing any roles should not be a frustration experience, but that’s exactly what it feels like healing on any profession in any mode.

The current voting process is fine…

Rylen.2147:

anet said that they were considering gliding in wvw (it would be really cool to bomb people in air strikes from above!) but it creates too many issues that need to be fixed. First off, they dont want people gliding to get inside of keeps/towers or getting any kind of advantage like that. Also, gliders would create some issues with combat itself. Its a cool idea but creates too many issues for the team to handle right now.

They can obviously create “no glide” zones and fix whatever issues, so no problem. We will get gliding someday and it will be glorious!

Ruine.3519:

Dear Anet,

I know previously you have mentioned that WvW seasons causes burnout. I would like to suggest perhaps bringing back some form of WvW tournament would lure back the people who left. Maybe with some unique skins to go with it.

Personally I know a ton of guys and girls who were previously wvw fans that left for other games due to the staleness of the game mode, they would definitely come back and give it a try again if seasons was reinstated.

Season 2 was I’m sure some of the best Wvw action most of us players have ever experienced for a realm v realm game. Bring back the love!

Thanks

Warm regards.

A dev stated that there were permanent losses to the population numbers after each tournament. It’s unlikely we will get them back in that form or anytime soon while all this other “stuff” is going on. We are far from tournament ready.

54 LI, plus all the other requirements, is more than reasonable.

Excess LI achieved could be used to buy other cool stuff.

Disclaimer- edits are coming when I have time.

I’ve had my fair share of games and classes and roles (tank roles, melee dps roles, ranged dps roles, heal roles, disruption roles, cc roles, non heal buff/support roles, debuff roles and hybrids of these roles), tons of solo and group pve and pvp stuff… over the course of many years. I can honestly say that playing heal support roles in gw2 has been the least enjoyable experience in all my years of mmo gaming. So while gw2 has a leg up with certain things like freedom to move and cast, a good targeting system, a general responsiveness with skills, being able to mix and match different skills… the quality of playable roles outside of being a damage dealer is just not there. Yes of course we have some skills that simulate roles, but those roles are more “esque” in nature.

It’s no secret that professions were designed to be self sufficient, and that the original intent was to have each profession viable for groups. Those are true, but the prevalent role here is damage dealer. There are hybrid damage + bits of “light” roles to play, but those are not really that great to be honest. Having a few skills that do X for 3 seconds on a 60 second cool down is not much of a defining or enjoyable role.

I’m not here to say that we need to turn warriors into tanks, eles into cc mages or druids into mace wielding clerics… I’m saying roles need to be better and better defined. There is nothing wrong with giving each class access to every role, but those roles need to be smooth and enjoyable to play.

So back on the topic of healing roles…

HoT and Raids brought more heal support to the game with druid, Ventari and a bit more healing to ele with tempest. It was clearly stated that the “zerker” meta was unhealthy for long term gameplay and that changes were being made. Some shifts have occurred for sure, but the healing support tool kits given to professions are meh. The gated heals and reticle aiming heal design of druid is sincerely not good. The clunky Ventari tablet is not good. Ele water/tempest is most tolerable of the other 2, but still not good compared to most every other heal role in any other game. Like I said, gw2 shines with freedom of movement and the stuff I mentioned earlier, but those are core combat system designs and have nothing to do with roles at all…

There are players who want to log in and play a decent heal role, not to be met with frustration. I can’t even tell you how ultra rare it is to see a healer outside of raids, that’s how bad it is. I’ve personally never seen a Ventari Rev in wvw because it’s just not practical or useful compared to blasting the enemy with ranged hammer… I’ve rarely seen quality heal spec Druids in open world pve and www, and they were certainly not using CA 1 and 2. All they, and I, do is random spam a couple skills. Ele is not much better either honestly.

There is not any quality and smooth healing in this game. It’s either clunky reticle or move clunky healing object around or “heal spray and pray” mostly… Heal support is only decent when groups and opponents are more stationary or confined to a small area, like in raids.

When I look at the combat system as a whole, the only way we can remedy the heal support issues is to make most heal skills pbaoe (point blank area of effect) and have splash heals on enemy targeted attacks for the most part… Long duration large area healing “patches” as well. So for some simplified examples of this… We take Druid CA and make it a non gated “stance” maintained until downed or manually exited (reenter timer starts upon exit). Make CA skill 1 and 2 single target ranged attacks with large area splash heals. CA 3, 4, 5 and seeds become large radius 5 target pbaoe burst heals that deal dot damage, and Glyphs continue to do what they do. Ventari tablet becomes a “backpack” so Revs can run around beating stuff up and doing their heal “things” tied in with energy mechanics. Ele is most similar to this style I’m recommending, but some improvements could be made.

Just to break down the above a bit more there could easily be enough variation for all profession heal roles using the burst, big dot, regen and “patch” styles

Druid- Staff “hippie” with CA “healing mage stance” that does some damage with a focus on heavy burst heals.

Rev- Staff Ventari “backpacker” with energy mechanics.

Ele- Warhorn/water/tempest/shouter/whatever… becomes the “soothing mist-er” style with regen and emergency “burst” dot heals.

Warrior- Staff “monk” with various healing support banners that cover large areas.

Necromancer- Frontline “juicer” hammer healer. Enemy takes damage and their life force “splash” heals allies.

Engineer- The “archer medic” that uses longbow or shortbow to fire offensive arrows fit with various healing canisters that support front liners.

Mesmer- Dual sword “blade dancer” that weaves steel and magic to slice up enemies and dot heal allies. Illusions function the same way. F skills do burst healing or regen or remove conditions or bigger dot heals.

Thief- The “shadow healer” channels the defensive properties of “shadow magic” to heal self and allies with an off hand Focus. This super cool healing “shadow magic” surrounds the thief and nearby allies in a wispy darkness that regenerate health and remove conditions.

Guardian- Revamp shield to constantly surround the guardian with “holy fire” that spreads big dot heals or regens or purges conditions on self and allies over a large area depending on toggle F skill chosen.

I know I’m just throwing out lots of crazy stuff, but the entire premise is to make healing support roles smooth and enjoyable to play in this movement heavy game. There is nothing worse right now during combat than to use all these clunky skills to support our teams. It’s poor design when a healer has to apologize for not having access to heals on Druid and to chase moving players with reticles and tablets hoping it will heal them. There has to be a better balance between incoming damage and conditions and heal and cleansing support. Doing these will also add another dimension to gameplay and provide decent roles to play instead of just dps/ultralight support for a few seconds.

I’ll have some edits like I mentioned, but I wanted to throw it out there because I’ve been frustrated playing my favorite role since hot launched. Maybe I’ll try to flesh out the simplified profession heal role ideas to make them more understandable and sensible.

Freedom of movement is one of the great features of combat, but the combat movement suppression completely ruins that feel. It’s simply not fun and should be changed. Also, with the plethora of movement imparing conditions it becomes overkill.

We also need a base move my speed of 25 at level 80.

hobotnicax.7918:

The only reason GW2 WvW is still alive is cause there isn’t any alternative to it on the market. Which is sad on a whole new level since WvW in GW2 is utterly broken, dumbed down, forgotten for far too long and heading in the wrong direction with every patch.

And there will be, and Anet is underestimating things right now by not making stronger investments to wvw.

What’s worse is Anet knows this as well. Maybe they are being their secretive self and will drop some miracle wvw update with the next xpac, but I doubt that will happen.

synergy.5809:

McKenna Berdrow.2759:

Hey guys, since I’m seeing this topic pop up a lot, I wanted to step in and clear up some misconceptions.

1. Nearly every player that voted, plays WvW at least somewhat regularly.

2. Whether they play 1 hour a week, or dozens of hours a week, the breakdown between people who voted ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ remains very constant around the 65/35 split.

3. The in-game poll notification mail is only sent to players who are actively playing WvW. They must be at least rank 10, and have ranked up while the poll was running.

i never got an ingame mail

Gain a rank in wvw and get the mail during a vote…

Look at the wvw forum 1x per week to see if there is a poll and vote.

lil devils x.6071:

Swagger.1459:

lil devils x.6071:

Swagger.1459:

lil devils x.6071:

briggah.7910:

long story short. it is not always fun to steam roll the enemies and it is not much fun getting steam rolled. players will get bored of each of these but the same results will happen. players will move on and find something else to do with their time.

There is more to it than that though. Players flocked to one server due to not being able to find that level of coordination and server unity elsewhere. That is actually due to this being a server vs server game mode since players cannot choose who is on their team with them. If WvW were GvGvG instead, guilds could kick people who were not cooperating, trolling, or helping on the server and ensure everyone on server contributes. That doesn’t happen, so their only alternative to not play with people creating a toxic environment is to leave. BG’s popularity was due to not being able to find that level of cooperation anywhere else and the sheer numbers of players looking for it.

“Coordination” aka “the masses want the best chances to win”…

What’s toxic is that wvw was left in this underdeveloped and unbalanced state for a long time. That’s the devs responsibility, not the players fault.

No actual coordination. AKA :

• Players willing to work with one another and help one another towards common goals not bicker and troll one another trying to prevent people from playing the game mode.

• Many players and guilds willing to contribute to resources needed to play. ( Siege, banners, food, utilities, guild upgrades/ buffs)

• Guilds working together and agreeing which maps to go to and when.

• Good scouts and guilds willing to respond to scouting calls.

• roamers, havoc and zergs working together to accomplish common goals.

Yes, these efforts increase your ability to win, however, it is not due necessarily to “outnumbering” but in willingness to work and play as a team. BG is well known for their ability to coordinate, even when they were not running great numbers. That reputation is why they grew as much as they did.

Yeah, stack to win.

Blame the devs for all wvw complaints please. Players are just playing through this mess and have some fun.

Um no, coordination isn’t necessarily related to player numbers or stacking. Wanting to be on servers where players are willing to help and work together =\= stacking to win. In BG’s case they were victim to lack of other servers being able to coordinate as well as they did. I was on JQ, I saw how well BG was able to coordinate their efforts and they deserve props for that, even when their numbers dropped and they were dropping to T2. That is also why when JQ had “coordination issues” some JQ players went to BG for that very reason.

Coordination allows you to hold your own even when massively outnumbered. BG often did that even when their PvE Blobs were in hibernation. They get credit where Credit is due. ( I don’t play on BG btw) My perspective is from one gained from fighting against them for a long time.

Sure, all servers have their talented groups. You may spin doctor if you wish my friend, but most players want the best chances to win so let’s not confuse that with anything else.

I’m honestly not going to drag out a debate with anyone who views using the “tools” coded into the game as “toxic” and that sees playing within rule sets is somehow wrong…

lil devils x.6071:

Swagger.1459:

lil devils x.6071:

briggah.7910:

long story short. it is not always fun to steam roll the enemies and it is not much fun getting steam rolled. players will get bored of each of these but the same results will happen. players will move on and find something else to do with their time.

There is more to it than that though. Players flocked to one server due to not being able to find that level of coordination and server unity elsewhere. That is actually due to this being a server vs server game mode since players cannot choose who is on their team with them. If WvW were GvGvG instead, guilds could kick people who were not cooperating, trolling, or helping on the server and ensure everyone on server contributes. That doesn’t happen, so their only alternative to not play with people creating a toxic environment is to leave. BG’s popularity was due to not being able to find that level of cooperation anywhere else and the sheer numbers of players looking for it.

“Coordination” aka “the masses want the best chances to win”…

What’s toxic is that wvw was left in this underdeveloped and unbalanced state for a long time. That’s the devs responsibility, not the players fault.

No actual coordination. AKA :

• Players willing to work with one another and help one another towards common goals not bicker and troll one another trying to prevent people from playing the game mode.

• Many players and guilds willing to contribute to resources needed to play. ( Siege, banners, food, utilities, guild upgrades/ buffs)

• Guilds working together and agreeing which maps to go to and when.

• Good scouts and guilds willing to respond to scouting calls.

• roamers, havoc and zergs working together to accomplish common goals.

Yes, these efforts increase your ability to win, however, it is not due necessarily to “outnumbering” but in willingness to work and play as a team. BG is well known for their ability to coordinate, even when they were not running great numbers. That reputation is why they grew as much as they did.

Yeah, stack to win.

Blame the devs for all wvw complaints please. Players are just playing through this mess and trying to have some fun.

lil devils x.6071:

briggah.7910:

long story short. it is not always fun to steam roll the enemies and it is not much fun getting steam rolled. players will get bored of each of these but the same results will happen. players will move on and find something else to do with their time.

There is more to it than that though. Players flocked to one server due to not being able to find that level of coordination and server unity elsewhere. That is actually due to this being a server vs server game mode since players cannot choose who is on their team with them. If WvW were GvGvG instead, guilds could kick people who were not cooperating, trolling, or helping on the server and ensure everyone on server contributes. That doesn’t happen, so their only alternative to not play with people creating a toxic environment is to leave. BG’s popularity was due to not being able to find that level of cooperation anywhere else and the sheer numbers of players looking for it.

“Coordination” aka “the masses want the best chances to win”…

What’s toxic is that wvw was left in this underdeveloped and unbalanced state for a long time. That’s the devs responsibility, not the players fault.

lil devils x.6071:

Swagger.1459:

@Nusku

1. Just before linkings BG blew up and there are not any server linkings right now that can even challenge you with ET. Nobody wants to fight hard because there is little point when players know they will get crushed in the end.

2. There is no “fighting” code of honor here… There are game rules to follow and tools players are given to use. I’ve been into pvp modes for a loooooong time and I always see silly complaints similar to stuff like we have here with the “using seige on field is for noobs”, “run behind walls and use structure for tactical cover is for weak nubs”, “2 servers attacked us QQ unfair”… This is a competitive mode and you use all means necessary within the game rules to win.

I’ll read the rest later, but everyone here knows BG/ET is unmatched right now and they are reading your post saying “oh poor you” and rolling their eyes. Yeah your guilds are bored and want to bail, they have zero challenge right now.

Yeah, wvw is not doing well as a whole, but to sit on BG and complaning right now is just silly.

I think you misunderstand. It isn’t YB using the worst mechanic in the game to win that was the problem, it was it being a mechanic to win at all that was the problem. They have to take away that as a win option to actually solve the problem long term. You see , no matter what Tier YB was in when they used that mechanic, everyone considered that toxic, not just one server or group of players.

BG blew up just before linkings due to players seeking coordinated servers where they didn’t have to do everything. No one wants to be the players/ guild that have to do all the work themselves, they want server help to get things done. BG is the best server to find that is why they went there.

What are you talking about YB for?

What’s toxic? Using all tools/seige/structures/terrain… provided by game design? That’s not toxic, that’s called smart and tactical gameplay.

It’s obvious players coordinated on BG to stack up and win, and with ET they are unmatched. Also, populations are unbalanced so hopefully the new linkings are better all around. If not, expect 2 months of poor match ups and many unhappy players.

@Nusku

1. Just before linkings BG blew up and there are not any server linkings right now that can even challenge you with ET. Nobody wants to fight hard because there is little point when players know they will get crushed in the end.

2. There is no “fighting” code of honor here… There are game rules to follow and tools players are given to use. I’ve been into pvp modes for a loooooong time and I always see silly complaints similar to stuff like we have here with the “using seige on field is for noobs”, “running behind walls and using structure is for weak nubs”, “2 servers attacked us QQ unfair”… This is a competitive mode and you use all means necessary within the game rules to win.

I’ll read the rest later, but everyone here knows BG/ET is unmatched right now and they are reading your post saying “oh poor you” and rolling their eyes. Yeah your guilds are bored and want to bail, they have zero challenge right now.

Yeah, wvw is not doing well as a whole, but to sit on BG and complaning right now is just silly.

I think it’s a rather perfect time to add gliding as a distraction to all the rage and dissent going on around these parts. Doing so would have the “bunny ears” effect, but on wvw players.

Yes, let the non hot owners be envious because it will get them to break out credit cards and buy hot in a jealous rage.

Our gliders are ready! Make it so!

Lendruil.9061:

Rising Dusk.2408:

I agree that 150 LI is too much. Either way I’ll forward this to their team for consideration.

Why is it too much? Any legendary item should be a longtime goal, and given that wing 3 is so easy and i think pretty soon in a puggable state, with bandit trio and valeguard this makes 5 legendary insights that are really easy to get per week for everyone who is willing to put at least a little bit of effort into the game and knows a bit more than what skill 1 on his bar does.
If you then consider that (as it seems) you can get the single armor pieces on their own and don’t need to craft the whole armor as a whole, then you need five weeks for one piece of armor if you only get the easy insights every week. And by doing the easy insights every week people will eventually get better and learn to know people and maybe will be able to do the other bosses as well.
In my opinion the number of 150 insights shouldn’t be lowered, since legendary armor should be legendary.

150 is completely unreasonable considering it costs thousands of gold as well for just 1 weight.

The only reason Anet makes decisions like these it to prolong the life of content and we can see it in many parts of the game. Playing should be fun. Achieving rewards should be reasonable. Killing 150 bosses is far from a legendary “journey”, it’s more of a legendary annoyance.

54 is a good number peeps, considering crafting is done by weight and the overall costs. That’s doing the full raid 6x, and pretty reasonable looking at all the factors.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Uhm, i don’t make up some random numbers. Of course I tried it out against the dps test golem. And I reached 13k dps against the small one (1 mil. hp) with this build, despite not having viper trinkets and using cheap food.
(with the known WS variant, which should be better vs multiple targets, because the vuln stacking from Remorseless is only single target, i got about 12k dps).

@ Zenith
So how much solo dps do you get on thief and warrior? Can’t be so hard to post those numbers …

Swagger.1459:

Here are some tests from Reddit user “PoorYarga”…

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4g7y77/heres_a_dps_comparison_of_43_ranger_builds/

I posted this earlier but you stated you only saw the qT one. It’s helpful to look at more ranger builds for this discussion.

I’m thinking 54 total is a good number. 54 is actually a pretty perfect number!

Let’s make that 54 number happen!

Tragic Positive.9356:

Swagger.1459:

<snip>

These numbers are meaningless unless you put them in a competitive environment. Who can kill what PvE boss faster by the numbers is a silly argument you were looking to have. Go spvp and wvw against top players and let me know how it goes.

PvE has it’s own competitive setting, from which time efficiency, or challenges such as playing content in less than full group or without food / nourishment or playing achievements or whatever is a merit.
Where damage is the most essential one. What you just said makes no sense, neither does it help the guy who came here to learn/find out something he didn’t know before.

I could just as easily say that damage, neither survival or utility matters in PvP. You just need to stand on a point. And I would be correct. So please, try to give people your answer or opinion on what has been asked. If you dislike a certain content, respect those who like it.

“And even at maths that ignores time used for dodge rolls and everything that would decrease your damage in real time combat – our DPS was bad. Without a doubt.”

WvW and spvp is some pretty good real time combat.

My comments were appropriate with all things considered.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

What has pvp and wvw meta to do with the topic of this thread? Nothing i guess …

Tragic Positive.9356:

And even at maths that ignores time used for dodge rolls and everything that would decrease your damage in real time combat – our DPS was bad. Without a doubt.
I wouldn’t dare people to bring you the numbers, because there are still people who do have them and they are not something you want to see at this moment.

Power ranger’s sustained dps is indeed not very high, i know. But is it really so much worse than most other classes (there is not only ele)? By much worse i mean about half of the dmg, like some here are claiming.
And then there is the condi build, which is imo quite decent (solo) dps wise. Better than ele? No. Better than some other classes? Maybe. I don’t know. But i would like to know. Because i’m a curious person and interested in this topic, even if it is not relevant for actual gameplay.

All professions can dps and burst and whatever… Yay a ranger can do damage and burst too!

Ok so we compare numbers to prove what point exactly?

Ranger has not been in the “cool kids” meta, but hey, they can dps and burst under the right conditions correct? They are regulated to buff and heal bots for raids right? Gotta nerf that search and rescue because, ya know, pretty groundbreaking comparatively…

These numbers are meaningless unless you put them in a competitive environment. Who can kill what PvE boss faster by the numbers is a silly argument you were looking to have. Go spvp and wvw against top players and let me know how it goes.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Seriously, just show me some actual dps numbers that prove your point and i will shut up.
Shouldn’t be an issue for you, right?

or, maybe, you could look at the pvp and wvw meta rankings over the course of almost 4 years to get an indication of true performance…

Gudradain.3892:

I’m starting this thread because I would like to have your honest opinion (with explanation) to the following question :

Is WvW too big? aka do we really need to have 4 maps per match up?

there are too many match ups. it’s obvious that even 24 servers can’t fill up 4 different matches and 16 total maps.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

QZ + SotP + SotW + LB5 + LB2 + Axe4 + Axe5 -> there is your burst.

@ everyone: Feel free to prove me wrong and provide some actual numbers of other classes’ solo dps/burst/whatever for a comparison. For now i only know about the test from qT, where they only used support focused druid builds with raid settings/full buffs.

Why don’t you do your own tests and report back…

Jim Hunter.6821:

Swagger.1459:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Swagger.1459:

Try structured pvp.

So he can play ring around the rosie?

There are dueling instances…

Yeah but then you are stuck with the horribad amulet system….

At least you get to duel when you want to duel right?

Jim Hunter.6821:

Swagger.1459:

Try structured pvp.

So he can play ring around the rosie?

There are dueling instances…

Try structured pvp.

Sweet Sanity.8593:

If people would stop stacking higher tier servers because they win more we wouldn’t be in this mess at all

Maybe if the devs invested more into wvw we wouldn’t have these problems.