Guild Wars 2

Pandabro.8743:

Tried this build a bit last night. It’s fun to say the least. I felt very effective in 1v1 situations but tended to go splat in anything else. Seems like it may be an good close point holder/roamer.

Only thing I really had trouble with was rangers who would dance in and out of my wells/range and have their pet eat me up. I just couldn’t keep them tied down long enough to do any substantial damage to them.

As I mentioned in my tutorial, Lich Form is there for that specific reason. If you’re being kited or out maneuvered, Lich bomb them.

Yet another wonderful Thief player saying “L2P” when he can’t provide valid points/arguments. Stealth has enormous damage mitigation, you cannot argue that.

Stealth is not supposed to be a hard counter for Conditions when it is also a hard counter for other forms of damage as well. Your points are nonsense, and I had made no point that it was OP in 1v1s alone. If my Deathshroud passively removed conditions, healed me, and removed targeting, then regenerated, what would that be hard countering?

I prefer turning you into a giant unusable lump of flesh with my Hexes <.<

Speaking of which… I really miss Hexes.

Assassin wasn’t that bad in GW1. I’d like to think my Hexmancer was a bit more terrifying, thank you.

I agree completely.

Rastaman.9015:

Travlane.5948:

i have to disagree…. thieves and eles are hte 2 hardest classes to master. yes its easy to pick up any class and play…including thief….but why do some thieves die easily and others it seems like they have cheat mode on? well thats the difference between mastered and easy to play :P….anyone can go invis and seem like they are good. but u never know how bad they move with invis unless u see their video……95% of the thieves you see actually are not good….its just invis is a hard skill to duel against…

Bravo! You took the words right out of my mouth. I encourage everyone to try and play the elementalist and thief and see how “easy” it is. In my opinion, ele and thief are the two most squishy professions in the game. Its all based on knowing your strengths and weaknesses, and all around knowledge of every other profession that makes a good player. If it was as easy as people make it seem to be, why isn’t everyone playing it? I play them both to challenge myself.

Elementalists and Thieves can easily be extremely strong bunkers. Hitpoints, and Toughness mean nothing in the form of survivability, that only means they die in fewer hits, now add in Dodging, Blocking, Invulnerability, Stealth mitigation, cleansing, and high healing…

Stealth wouldn’t be nearly as bad if it didn’t have such enormous damage mitigation. Your passive aggressive post proves literally nothing, nor does it provide any valid point other than “NOU!”

I cannot kill a good Stealth based Thief with conditions. They are practically immune to them.

PvP has a much higher skillcap than WvW, and mastering it would greatly improve your skill in other aspects. I would advise you master PvP, and find what build works well for fighting other players before committing a wad of cash to making the build in PvE

Bas knows where I stand on that issue, but regardless Epidemic is not strong enough to merit the injustice we receive regularly. I would rather see consistent damage than random inconsistent obliteration.

I run CoF alot, I suppose you’re thinking because Mesmers can make a single part of the dungeon somewhat easier by using a Portal at the enkindle section… which can be easily crossed by any class and if you need a Mesmer for that all I can say is l2p. Skill removes the necessity for alot of the class utilities everyone so adores, allowing for more versatility and even more effectiveness.

Aberrant.6749:

I lol-ed at the 1 free blinding powder. More like 1 free reveal @ 25%…

I agree with swinsk… it’s not for burst, it’s for survival. It’s not OP. That doesn’t mean other trait lines couldn’t use some tweaking after all of the changes that have happened though (this is a common problem with all classes).

I don’t know if you know this… but the ability to deal damage, whilst surviving… pretty OP. I’m looking at you, Beastmaster Ranger.

Metamega.9025:

Should try s/p. never really used it in wvw. Be sweet if I could make it work, just seems like it is asking for trouble lol. S/d is my secondary( used it before buff in pve) but its fotm(for good reason, its a weapon set that works).

As a thief just starting more and more pvp/wvw. I just never find myself this steals thing op beast. I’m annoying for sure. I’m able to get away. I can see the skill diference in my opponents though easily. If I’m in open land and in trouble and throw down shadow refugee the smart players know what to do. A lot of times though, people other then thieves don’t roam solo a lot so the safety for them is there and in just annoying. I’ve learned if an opponent keeps running while I’m hitting him is that I should be ready for a Zerg up a head. Chased way to many guardians to my death lol.

But , in that case I’m just a scout/infiltrator class and other then that, how do I benefit wvw. I’m killing people sure, but wvw isn’t about killing people, and pvp isn’t about killing people, its about capturing points. Which my class offers little too.

Type in YouTube ( thief wvw). Nothing about helping a Zerg pops lol. This was a bit of a tangent rant but all this negative thief talk makes me wonder. Game is balance for wvw and pvp play, not 1v1. It dueling exist I could see the complaints, but it doesn’t so why the hate?

If you want help learning how to be a better anything in PvP, I can help you ingame if you are in NA. Infact it would probably be easier/better to talk ingame as well.

noobftw.9654:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

noobftw.9654:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Lux.7169:

Spam 2 more thief
Wait til they nerf pets ranger
Faceroll more mesmer
Play something that takes skill guardians

It’s all irrelevant. No matter what you play or how you play it, people will still talk crap. Can noobs use d/p? Absolutely. Do top players use it? Most definitely.

Never heard anyone complain about my Necro or my Warrior. Truth is:

• Rangers are overpowered
• Thieves are annoyingly easy to use, and annoyingly strong. They’re entire playstyle is based around spamming.
• Mesmers have 2 overpowered meta builds, despite having not much else
• Guardians take virtually no skill, they’re just facetanks.

There are reasons behind most of the complaints, if you bother to step off your pedestal and listen.

1. Ranger is only op in PVP and has the worst utilities for wvw or dungeon

That’s actually a completely false biased opinion, as I have seen numerous Rangers do extremely well in dungeons, and even very difficult fractals. Rangers also do significantly well in WvW, certainly better than Warriors or Necromancers.

Ranger can be op in wvw, but only when its small group fight. Warrior provides better team support in zerg fight and terror spec’ed necro is a beast in wvw.

In turns of dungeon, any class can do well in dungeon (meaning smooth run). But why do I need to bring a ranger when I can bring a else who can provide more dps or better team support? When you FARM dungeon so much, you just want to faceroll it in 5 -10 mins. For entry level dungeon such as cof p1, I would definitely go with a warrior or mezmer or even a zerker thief. For harder dungeons like 40+ fotm, you are either asking for dps, team support or reflection skills and ranger really lacks those and the pet is unlikely to provide the same dps as in pvp.

Builds do far more damage in PvE and WvW than in PvP. I’ve seen Rangers that can keep their pets alive longer than most players can keep themselves alive, not simply because of skill differences, either. I prefer Rangers over Warriors in my dungeon running teams. Pound per pound, Rangers are superior. I rarely ever use Thieves in anything (PvP, WvW, or PvE), as I generally despise the builds they attempt to pretend to use properly, very few Thieves earn my respect. Mesmers are useful, but I rarely see any worth bringing in for any PvE. Guardians prove very useful for support. Necromancers are extremely useful and nearly mandatory in some condition-heavy dungeons/fractals, plus Leeching tanks are pretty strong outside of PvP. Warriors are downright awful, the only reason people use them is because they are under the impression that DPS is the only thing that matters in PvE and “hunded bade r gud”

Thieves are easy to master. Elementalists are also easy to master. I use both, and I don’t use meta builds either.

Necromancers, Warriors, and Engineer (NonHGH) are significantly tougher to use/master because they are less effective than other builds. Surviving a 2v1 as a Thief is easy, all you have to do is stealth or teleport away. Surviving a 2v1 as a Necromancer is near impossible.

It’s quite OP. Thieves have enormous damage mitigation in stealth. They are virtually immune to most condition based builds that aren’t OP themselves.

noobftw.9654:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Lux.7169:

Spam 2 more thief
Wait til they nerf pets ranger
Faceroll more mesmer
Play something that takes skill guardians

It’s all irrelevant. No matter what you play or how you play it, people will still talk crap. Can noobs use d/p? Absolutely. Do top players use it? Most definitely.

Never heard anyone complain about my Necro or my Warrior. Truth is:

• Rangers are overpowered
• Thieves are annoyingly easy to use, and annoyingly strong. They’re entire playstyle is based around spamming.
• Mesmers have 2 overpowered meta builds, despite having not much else
• Guardians take virtually no skill, they’re just facetanks.

There are reasons behind most of the complaints, if you bother to step off your pedestal and listen.

1. Ranger is only op in PVP and has the worst utilities for wvw or dungeon

That’s actually a completely false biased opinion, as I have seen numerous Rangers do extremely well in dungeons, and even very difficult fractals. Rangers also do significantly well in WvW, certainly better than Warriors or Necromancers.

Lux.7169:

Spam 2 more thief
Wait til they nerf pets ranger
Faceroll more mesmer
Play something that takes skill guardians

It’s all irrelevant. No matter what you play or how you play it, people will still talk crap. Can noobs use d/p? Absolutely. Do top players use it? Most definitely.

Never heard anyone complain about my Necro or my Warrior. Truth is:

• Rangers are overpowered
• Thieves are annoyingly easy to use, and annoyingly strong. They’re entire playstyle is based around spamming.
• Mesmers have 2 overpowered meta builds, despite having not much else
• Guardians take virtually no skill, they’re just facetanks.

There are reasons behind most of the complaints, if you bother to step off your pedestal and listen. Dagger/Pistol is annoyingly easy, powerful, and overly-common. Blinding powder is nonsensical, so is the heartseeker spam through it. If you don’t want to hear complaints, switch to something that takes more skill to use such as the less common S/P or P/P. If you want to continue using D/P, then don’t listen to the complaints, it’s that simple. Don’t use faulty reasoning such as “Oh well those people just need to l2p” because honestly you’re using a VERY annoying/easy/strong build, don’t expect people to respond kindly to BS -> BP -> Heartseeker -> BS -> BP -> Stomp nonsense.

I LOVE this train of thought: “Only newbies and baddies complain about stealth, because you know, Stealth is perfectly fine, it’s everyone else that needs to l2p.”

I would either remove stealth, or make it take skill/strategy/forethought. As in, make it so you move 66% slower while in stealth, no damage mitigation, no passive cleansing, no healing, but the stealth would be permanent.

Ruggan.4102:

Deamhan.9538:

Nah, it’s pretty transparent that they want the EZ stealth mode and they don’t want to do what they have repeatedly told others to do. Adapt and L2p. What goes around, comes around and it is good to see it coming back around to them.

Yea. too bad it has been the thief over EVERY patch since day one that has had to adapt…. every change to the thief has been MAJOR with NO compensation at all.

Necromancers got nerfed incredibly hard after the beta with no compensation, infact the nerf was so god kitten hard that half our utilities/weapon skills/traits are still broken because of it.

The ability to use Spectral Armor, or Spectral Walk whilst in Deathshroud to provide a decent heal-per hit would be strong, which Arenanet is afraid of. However, it wouldn’t be NEARLY as strong as some of the other similar things other classes can do, such as Troll Ungent, Stealth cleansing/healing, and Block healing/invulnerability healing.

Some trait lines are far more important than others.

If you’re going to put all your eggs into one basket, then don’t get mad if you drop it.

I have stated before that Meta build reliance is absolutely awful and stupid. Think outside of the box. I have used P/P Thief in high level Tourney play, it works fine. Shortbow is actually one of the strongest weapons a Thief has, and you can build around it just like a Ranger would build around his shortbow.

You make it sound as though STEALTH IS FINE, OTHER CLASSES JUST WHINE AND NEED TO L2P

Stealth is enormously overpowered, it’s an incredibly strong strategic advantage, and it is literally the highest damage mitigation in the game next to Troll Ungent. There is no hard counter to it except blindly spamming AoEs, and that only matters if you’re in a very tight location, which are almost impossible to find in PvP, let alone WvW.

Getting 2 strong Epidemics, and 2 good Corrupt Boons on any competent group is nothing short of absolute miraculous luck.

Necromancer has the potential to be incredibly strong imo, but we need ALOT of fixes, and some rework along the way would be welcome to me as well.

Geiir.7603:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Ruggan.4102:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Shroud isn’t even remotely good, and I’ve lasted without it for a much longer time than that. Infact on many of my builds, I don’t even use it.

Taking away Mesmer clones is completely different, as that would be like taking away your weapon skills as a Thief which is not what they are talking about.

Meditation Guardians, hahahahahahaha, dead.

I generally stand in Fire/Air/Earth attunements for much longer than 30 seconds, but I suppose that’s because I’m a Staff Ele, not a face rolling D/D Ele. Of course I could make that argument about Thieves too, I play an S/D Thief, not a Heartseeker monkey thief.

Stealth is OP in every game it is implemented in, and more often than not, it is taken out post-release. Anyone remember teh GW1? WoW? Lawl.

Umm no, taking away clones would be like taking away a trait line… just like the thief revealed for 30 seconds… weapon skills are entirely different… but well…

That is completely false. Mesmers are clone dependent, Thieves do not depend on their Stealth. It’s more or less taking away Distortion/Blurred Frenzy for 30 seconds, which still doesn’t bother me. Maybe you should l2p rather than live and breath Backstab Stealth monkery.

You are wrong. Have you even read the entire thread?!

Thieves BUILT FOR STEALTH are stealth dependent. Taking it away is like giving that thief to the enemy. This trap renders an entire trait line completely useless, tell me that’s fair again and that thieves should l2p. Anet designed the thief to be dependent on stealth, so we should not need to switch build because a new patch are released…. I’ve played a stealth free thief and I hated it. I had much more survivability, but I just didn’t like it.

To make it fair we could just make a trap called class nerfer: taking away stealth from thieves, boons from guardians, death shroud or conditions from necromacers, clones and phantasms from mesmers, ranger pets, engineer tool belts, not able to change attunements for elementalists, and warrior flags and shouts. Fair right?

There already are hard counters for every class except Thief. Thief has no hard counter because they can stealth or teleport away out of any danger. Guardians have their boons eaten by Necromancers, Mesmers are destroyed by Guardian AoE and mediation, Warriors are just eaten alive anyway.

I wouldn’t mind seeing even more done against Thief, they’re not even supposed to be in a zerg, so it shouldn’t bother you. If you don’t like having your enormously OP advantage removed for 30 seconds, make a new build and get over it.

To be honest, I feel like they originally meant for Necromancer to go a different way, then for whatever reason changed it into this poor Deathshroud mechanic at the last second. Then they realized, ah maw gherd it’s toooooo powerful, so they nerfed it so hard into the ground we need a bloody Spade just to take a leak.

I don’t use all of my wells against good players, and generally I just drop them down in a group fight in a large area around the point.

But then you have to remember, if they decided to not stand in my wells, then they lose the point. Which wins it for me either way. As I stated in my tutorial, you don’t have to be extremely conservative with your utilities.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Potentate-tPvP-Build-Tutorial/first#post2058664

>_>

Watch my tutorial, you’ll need alot of money to make it strong in WvW, but you’ll have an idea as to how a Well Build can be put together.

Greetings gentlemen, as I have given the Potentate build to a few people, I kept receiving a reoccurring complaint that it was too hard, or they could not use it properly. So, to alleviate this, I have installed recording software, and recorded a small modest tutorial for it. Injecting some of my own opinions about Meta builds near the end too if you watch for that long.

Hope it helps, I’ll upload some gameplay footage later too.

The quality is a little off, because it’s still processing a bit. Supposedly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiEf13faOtU

Gameplay Footage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eE8Pv5bnDI

Run out of… heals? D/P is basically survivability in a different way by whoring around with Invisibility and Blind. It’s essentially a 1v1 build, that loses in group fights when your stealth goes down hill.

Bhawb.7408:

A single Epidemic can completely wipe a team. It requires coordination, however, and frankly very few teams show the coordination to actually throw out good Epidemic’s consistently; and most of those teams are EU and don’t run condi cleave comps.

It can, as long as their team has no condition cleansing, healing, transfers, boons, or brains.

Travlane.5948:

Lighter.5631:

Ruggan.4102:

Linguistically Inept.6583:

swinsk.6410:

What class do you play? Why don’t we invent a trap for rangers that doesn’t allow them to evade for 30s?

dont thieves have nearly constant evasion if built right?

Yea, you can build a thief for constant evasion… well semi-constant… of course you sacrifice damage and other things for it… but to be serious… ok, so what you are saying here is simply this… build a thief so you can enter combat but all you will ever do unless you want to die is evade…. ooooh that sounds like sooooo much fun.

your logic is flawed

quite the contrary. if u ever played an evade thief that constantly or near constantly evades…their dmg is as bad as guardians and minus the boons. all the do is evade and hope that catrops can kill :P …… if u die to caltrops than just shouldnt have a discussion at all lol. caltrops is good but not going to win any fights by itself. you cant do dmg while evading…..and look at the evades (the damage evades)

death blossom : 1 sec of animation for a 1/4 sec evade
FS: 1.2 secs for .5 secs evade :P

the only great evade is roll for initiative (3/4 sec evade) 1 sec animation

out of all the evades in the thief arsenal…..only deathblossom can do any decent dmg and not enough/fast enough to matter. its a joke and a troll build.

S/D would like to have a word with you.

Ruggan.4102:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Shroud isn’t even remotely good, and I’ve lasted without it for a much longer time than that. Infact on many of my builds, I don’t even use it.

Taking away Mesmer clones is completely different, as that would be like taking away your weapon skills as a Thief which is not what they are talking about.

Meditation Guardians, hahahahahahaha, dead.

I generally stand in Fire/Air/Earth attunements for much longer than 30 seconds, but I suppose that’s because I’m a Staff Ele, not a face rolling D/D Ele. Of course I could make that argument about Thieves too, I play an S/D Thief, not a Heartseeker monkey thief.

Stealth is OP in every game it is implemented in, and more often than not, it is taken out post-release. Anyone remember teh GW1? WoW? Lawl.

Umm no, taking away clones would be like taking away a trait line… just like the thief revealed for 30 seconds… weapon skills are entirely different… but well…

That is completely false. Mesmers are clone dependent, Thieves do not depend on their Stealth. It’s more or less taking away Distortion/Blurred Frenzy for 30 seconds, which still doesn’t bother me. Maybe you should l2p rather than live and breath Backstab Stealth monkery.

Mathias.9657:

Stealth was never in GW1…

And lol @ Unicorn being viable, no it’s not at all… death blossom is buggy as hell, you can literally walk to the side and 50% of the attack will miss you and those bleeds are absolutely necessary for damage. This even happens in pve but it’s less of a worry because mobs aren’t running around constantly.

I’ve tested unicorn (or unicron as I like to call it) extensively and it is just not reliable enough to be efficient not to mention a cripple or freeze will make you completely useless.

Stealth was implemented in GW1, then immediately removed after when the developers found out it was near impossible to balance.

Lopez.7369:

Making Well of Darkness a 30-second cooldown and maybe making it a stunbreaker would do a lot to fix necromancers without giving the class too much mobility, which the developers seem resistant to since it goes against the class’s theme.

That should also be part of a broader sweep on necromancer’s utility skills. ArenaNet needs to make the spectral skills more potent and reduce the cooldowns on almost all non-corruption utility skills.

That, on top of a dark DOT that could act like burning in terms of damage and cleansing protection, would be enough to fix the class.

That would be enough to make us OP.

Shroud isn’t even remotely good, and I’ve lasted without it for a much longer time than that. Infact on many of my builds, I don’t even use it.

Taking away Mesmer clones is completely different, as that would be like taking away your weapon skills as a Thief which is not what they are talking about.

Meditation Guardians, hahahahahahaha, dead.

I generally stand in Fire/Air/Earth attunements for much longer than 30 seconds, but I suppose that’s because I’m a Staff Ele, not a face rolling D/D Ele. Of course I could make that argument about Thieves too, I play an S/D Thief, not a Heartseeker monkey thief.

Stealth is OP in every game it is implemented in, and more often than not, it is taken out post-release. Anyone remember teh GW1? WoW? Lawl.

As I’ve also experienced, not all unique builds are extremely good. This one is decent, I’ll agree, however it’s not necessarily viable at high levels imo.

36 of my Necro builds are viable, I’ve had atleast 85 that are completely worthless, but unique/interesting. This one has a neat idea, but could use improvement.

I’m glad you’re starting to theory craft though

Full glass, I’d say no more than 1,000 extra than what they hit for now. As at the moment, they’re already incredibly strong

Or we can nerf Ranger pets by introducing the “Warrior” pet.

Now with new Hundred Fails! Twice the damage you wish you could do to moving opponents!

I generally hate MM builds, but I pushed aside my bias for this one.

It’s a decent MM build, but I don’t find it very effective. It’s essentially an sustain condition tank, but in a group fight, it gets dominated easily. It lacks serious damage output, the corruption/well utilities for a Necromancer are his strongest sources of damage, replacing them with… ugh… Minions doesn’t help very much. I’m glad that you used my Plague Signet idea with MM builds, but it still doesn’t help much without speccing around it.

Honestly I don’t see the advantages this build has over other condition builds, infact I find it to be somewhat weaker.

To improve this, I would move the 10 points from Spite into Curses, then equip Runes of the Undead. Sometimes duration can take a backseat to damage. I would then equip a Rabid amulet, and add Sigils of Earth to some of your weapons. I would also remove the Plague Signet, since you’re not built for it, and switch it to Corrupt Boon, or Well of Corruption. You’ll also want to put back Dagger on Scepter offhand for the transfer, as unreliable as it may be you can buffer it with Doom and Flesh Golem/Bone Fiend. Then I would replace Flesh Wurm with Bone Fiend. Bone Fiend is highly underrated, but it is not weak, it does high damage, and can make melee opponents suffer. Besides, you’re a Minionmancer, while Flesh Wurm is nice, you shouldn’t be trying for escapes like that. It’s not helpful in team fights.

You can literally dance through enemy zergs spamming the 2 button on S/D. I’m so sorry that your Heartseeker monkery doesn’t automatically make you invincible for 5 seconds like Blurred Frenzy. I’m also sorry that now you have to think tactically rather than running in and hiding in Stealth. I’m also sorry that you now have to be careful before you immediately insta-nuke someone in a 1v1 by pressing 2 like a special person having a seizure.

I’m afraid all I see in this thread is a whole lot of L2P.

I know a couple of people that are 3/5 the way there, Ghoul. I just want my bloody Snap Dragon, but a level 20 PvE armor is only accessible at rank 60 in PvP. That’s absolute nonsense.

I want this trap for PvP.

But seriously, get over it please. Thieves were, and still are in a way, broken in WvW. Now if we get a couple nerfs to Ranger, and nerf the HGH Engi, Buff the Warrior, fix the Necro, then we might come close to balancing this game.

Wouldn’t it be nice if getting to Rank 80 didn’t take 20 years?

I suppose I’ll just repost my idea here.

Acid

• Reapplies itself when cleansed
• Burns armor value for (0.1 * Malice) per second
• Damage to Armor lingers for (0.05 * Level) times the duration of the condition when expired
• Damages for (0.15 * Malice) + (4 * Level) + 8 damage per second
• Can be applied to structures
• Damages structures for (0.25 * Malice) + (4 * Level) + 8 damage per second

Necromancer

• Master trait: Armor burn lingers for 50% longer
• Grandmaster trait: 30% chance to apply Acid on Necrotic Grasp (3 seconds)
• Putrid Mark (2 1/2 seconds)
• Corrosive Poison Cloud (2 seconds)
• Deathshroud 5 skill
• Putrid Explosion (2 seconds)
• Death Nova (1 second)
• Spectral Wall (1 second)

Engineer

• Fumigate (1 Second)
• Acid bomb (5 Seconds)

Thief

• Scale venom (2 Seconds)
• Choking Gas (1 Second)

Ranger

• Carrion Devourer: Poison cloud (1 sec)
• Whiptail Devourer: Devourer Siege (1 sec)

Mesmer

• Chaos Storm (5 Seconds)
• The Prestige (3 Seconds)
• Into the Void (3 Seconds)

We have the potential to be extremely strong, often matching other classes strongest builds, if we would just get out of this annoying repetitive mindset.

We’re not a jack of all trades, master of none. We’re a Master of all trades. Most of us simply have yet to realize it. We are by far the most balanced class in the entire game.

We need bug fixes, and could use improvements, but a huge amount of the problems people have with Necromancers are either l2p problems, or lack of build imagination.

sigh

Sure Bhawb. Sure.

Minions are the bestest. They have the bestest burstesteses, and the most amazingest bunkerness.

That train of thought must be why everyone including yourself think we’re low tier.

Minions don’t work as bunkers at all. Once the Minions go down, you’ll go down soon too.