Guild Wars 2

I hope we can get better coordination and a coach for Saturday. I’m sorry to say, but I was embarrassed by the tournament.

<- Tera Shilus

That was indeed a good tourney, difficult for me since I was rusty with mah Engineer, I main Necro

I would like to thank the team for being awesome, our amazing coach, and gg+gl to the other teams.

If you are in NA, and want some help, Whisper me ingame. I’m online right now.

Funny, I was just theory crafting for Thief today.

To be honest, my prediction for this tournament, is that it is between Necromancer, and Ranger. I’ve fought in all-class teams, and few have the capability of standing on their own.

I can sub for any class if necessary.

<- TheMightyAltroll.3485 (I have loads of toons, so no standard ign)
Either Day
None
NA
I use all classes.

Invision.1307:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Man, I don’t think you play high level tournaments. The Thieves I see, easily bunker, easily tank, and actually out-perform and survive my Lich form.

Also, a Thief can infact have vigor up constantly. Look closely over the traits that Thief has… I won’t tell you which ones… think of it as a challenge. There is a reason why there are Caltrop builds with Thieves have near-infinite dodging.

Having an STAFF Elementalist in your team is incredibly situational and unlikely.

Thieves Guild, which is one of the primary sources of damage for non-heartseeker monkey builds.

Thieves guild is used often in tournaments… it’s incredibly strong in P/D builds… do you know anything other than D/D? Because I’m really questioning the legitimacy of your points here.

I know absolutely all the builds for a thief, and of course I know they can have vigor up and running 90% of the time (100% if you steal vigor boons with s/d), but almost none of them are viable for tpvp (high ranked tpvp). Ask the top players (thiefs) EU and they will tell you that the only really good build is d/p burst. 25/30/0/0/15.

Funny, I asked some of the top Thief players in NA, and they all love the high evasion builds. They dominate most players in tPvP when used effectively.

Kirito, a Caltrop Condition Thief should easily dominate a Lich. Using dodges, blinds, and stealth as damage mitigation, while the Lich stews with 25+ bleeds. It’s over at that point.

KrisHQ.4719:

Ah. I love browsing through the replies sometimes.
People are apparently kittening idiots and have no clue about good balance, if they think that a 5 sec CD semi-stunbreak weapon skill is OP (Phase Retreat).
But it’s okay to whine about rangers pets, although they have incredibly bad AI and almost always permanent cripple since every ranger is using Empathic Bond (And i cannot even begin to describe how useless that is for a BM build).

F1. F3

Minionmancer would like to have a word with you.

My original statement was “That notion is very build dependent, some things are stronger with higher crit chance, some are stronger with higher crit damage”

None of those ‘fixes’ helped balance whatsoever. But I’m assuming you don’t PvP. Or WvW. Ever see the Arrow Cart post patch?

He’s probably immediately dodging, or using a skill afterwards.

P/D and D/P have enormous survivability. You regenerate initiative, bro. It’s not like Deathshroud.

As I said, I’ve seen Thieves in high level tPvP that have unlimited dodges, or blind/caltrop an entire group into death. My Lich form doesn’t stand a chance against good D/P P/D players.

… You haven’t even listed any facts whatsoever. Ranger is the most effective tank in the game, pet or no pet, and they can do high damage without pets as well.

Invision.1307:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

You seem to be under the impression that Thieves have to sacrifice damage for survivability when they have Blinds and Stealth for the highest damage mitigation in the game. You should probably learn Thief, bro. It’s really good.

You also seem to be under the impression that Thieves are easy to kill…

They don’t have blind unless they spec that in trait. Blind reduces damage, that is a fact. Go check the trait lines.. There’s a cooldown before you can stealth again, so in that time, it’s not hard to kill a thief, unless he escapes. Also, he can’t just stealth and stealth and stealth, because that costs initiative, and he doesn’t have enough initiative regeneration, unless he’s using another build (not burst build).

…

D/P!?!?!?!?!

Man, I don’t think you play high level tournaments. The Thieves I see, easily bunker, easily tank, and actually out-perform and survive my Lich form.

Also, a Thief can infact have vigor up constantly. Look closely over the traits that Thief has… I won’t tell you which ones… think of it as a challenge. There is a reason why there are Caltrop builds with Thieves have near-infinite dodging.

Having an STAFF Elementalist in your team is incredibly situational and unlikely.

Thieves Guild, which is one of the primary sources of damage for non-heartseeker monkey builds.

Thieves guild is used often in tournaments… it’s incredibly strong in P/D builds… do you know anything other than D/D? Because I’m really questioning the legitimacy of your points here.

1: Stand on Wall
2: Throw grenades at Zerg
3: ???
4: Profit.

Bring your friends.

Root immediately kills Minions, unless there is enough AoE to remove the Root before hand, which is unlikely unless it’s point-specific. Remember, alot of the AoE in the game is condition based, which doesn’t affect Roots. So unless you’re going to go around de-rooting all of the pets… they’ll die. This especially hurts Thieves and Minionmancers, but it can also Interrupt and mess over Mesmers as well as other Rangers.

You do not understand Necromancer minions, please stop talking about them. Their AI does not work the way you think it does.

I don’t have any recording software, otherwise I would do so, gladly.

Edit: There you go thinking that Thieves die easily again… best damage mitigation in the game and you think they die from stepping on a thumbtac. Thieves make some of the strongest bunkers in the game, and infact still manage to do high damage. Considering standing on a point might involve eating about 20 Caltrops…

Invision.1307:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Sacrificing 2 traits from a Thief does not nerf damage to the point of being ineffective. Berserker’s gear will make up for it, and you’ll still do more damage than any other class specced for it, while still having more survivability.

Let’s say I’m running 25/30/0/0/15, which is the most glassy build, and I’ll sacrifice some traits to get “Blind on stealth” and “Remove a condition every 3 seconds in stealth”, I will have to remove 20 trait points in a trait-tree, which means I for example have to build it like 25/10/20/0/15.
This means that I’m cutting lose my grandmaster trait in critical strikes which would have given me a 100% crit chance when in stealth, or +20% when enemy is lower than 50% health..
How is this not a huge nerf to my burst?

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Root is not removed immediately from an AoE. I’ve never seen Root used and people escape it without wasting skills anywhere under 3 seconds. That’s a 3 second CC, and a strong one at that. It’s an kill button for any NPCs as well. Hell, it’s a kill button for most Downed players.

When talking about this previously, I mentioned thieves and mesmers as the main classes that can escape this. Thieves only have to spend half a second to escape, even without stun breaker, which you don’t seem to understand, cause you’ve never seen a good thief in the root.
Yes, the pets and minions can easily be killed when they are rooted, but that doesn’t change the team fight..

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

You do not know Necromancer at all. At all. If you did you would realize that your argument is completely false. Minions cannot stray too far from the Necromancer anymore, so no, he can’t just leave them on you. Minions are far weaker than Pets. A smart Ranger can increase his pet’s life span considerably, even in group play, by utilizing the basic commands. Which a Necromancer doesn’t have.

I’m not talking about a Necromancer running to another point, I’m talking about in a team fight, where he leaves me but attacks my team mates instead, and leaves his minions there to kill me. Why are you always using Necromancers are example of how good Rangers are?

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

I play Ranger extremely effectively, and have none of the problems you describe, that’s a l2p problem for you. I’m done arguing with you until you actually learn the game.

Hmm. Kind of unfair statement, trying to make me look like a stupid player who never played the game. You’ve yet to tell me if you even play tournaments or not, because I’m never talking about how the builds work in hot joins..

A) Thieves are the strongest attrition class in the game.

B) Have everyone’s Pets and Minions immediately killed doesn’t change a team fight?… This discredits everything you’ve said.

C) A Necromancer cannot leave his pets to kill you while fighting another player. Pets will generally always attack the target the Necro has selected since AI was changed. This discredits everything you’ve said x2

D) I don’t need to try

E) I play tournaments all the time, with premades and solo joins. On all classes.

I’m one of your formerly most hated opponents, Necromancer, you know, the guy who would corrupt all your boons.

So how’s it going with that new enemy, Thief? Working out all right with his boon stealing? I’m actually curious as to how you guys are dealing with them nowadays.

Necromancer: I thought it was unblockable…

Invision.1307:

ronpierce.2760:

I have to agree with Altroll on this, Thieves if made correctly really aren’t squishy… And also, it’s complete stealth, if you’re standing in a spot that you can predictably be hit that’s generally a player issue. Most people who see a stealther go into hiding they will either attack around them, or attack in a path following the direction they started hiding in. Anything beyond that would be sheer luck and not very likely.

How is this an issue. The thieves that aren’t squishy, and that are going stealth all the time, are not the thieves doing any damage. Of course, you have for example the Pistol/Dagger condition build, but the only condition is bleed.. Most classes have condition removers, perhaps not for all conditions, but for at last one at a time. It’s your fault if you didn’t bring any condition removers on your build, just like it’s the thief’s fault that he chose that exact build.

You seem to be under the impression that Thieves have to sacrifice damage for survivability when they have Blinds and Stealth for the highest damage mitigation in the game. You should probably learn Thief, bro. It’s really good.

You also seem to be under the impression that Thieves are easy to kill…

Does alot more than Warriors or Necromancers, alot more often.

I feel like I should create a guild, invite some of the top players of each class, then charge for lessons.

As do I. As do I…

Invision.1307:

Minionmancers can be good for tanking a point at the same times as dealing lots of conditions (different types, which makes it harder to cleanse). They have multiple minions, which means it takes longer to kill than it does with just one minion. If I’m downed by a Ranger, and he leaves me with his pet, I can easily kill it, but if I’m downed by a Necromancer, and he leaves his minions on me, I can’t do kitten. So no, the Ranger’s pet isn’t much better than the Necromancer’s minions when it comes to survivability.
It’s not a bout me not knowing how to make a thief last. I barely ever die in a tournament, and I’m 100% glass cannon. I was talking about blinding on stealth (which is a trait) and cleansing every 3 seconds while in stealth (another trait). If you’re using these, you have to skip two other traits, like for example +7% crit chance from side or behind etc.. No thanks.
Root is incredibly easy to escape as long as you have a Stun Breaker, and even easier for classes such as thieves, cause they can use their #5 skill on short bow (Infiltrator’s Arrow) to just teleport out of it.
In a team fight where Root as been used, the overall AoE will kill the roots fast, and a high-ranked team always got Stun Breaks to use. And besides, if they have a thief or mesmer who’s escaped it, since it’s easy, they can protect the other teammates during this immobilize. Therefore, not SO KITTENS MASSIVE!

It seems like you’ve played the classes a lot, but never in tournaments, only hot joins.
Is this true?

Sacrificing 2 traits from a Thief does not nerf damage to the point of being ineffective. Berserker’s gear will make up for it, and you’ll still do more damage than any other class specced for it, while still having more survivability.

Root is not removed immediately from an AoE. I’ve never seen Root used and people escape it without wasting skills anywhere under 3 seconds. That’s a 3 second CC, and a strong one at that. It’s an kill button for any NPCs as well. Hell, it’s a kill button for most Downed players.

You do not know Necromancer at all. At all. If you did you would realize that your argument is completely false. Minions cannot stray too far from the Necromancer anymore, so no, he can’t just leave them on you. Minions are far weaker than Pets. A smart Ranger can increase his pet’s life span considerably, even in group play, by utilizing the basic commands. Which a Necromancer doesn’t have.

I play Ranger extremely effectively, and have none of the problems you describe, that’s a l2p problem for you. I’m done arguing with you until you actually learn the game.

F1 → F3

I’d absolutely love to see you guys try to play Minionmancer without committing seppuku.

DaShi.1368:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

DaShi.1368:

Yes, in that case, the issue is not the mesmer because it is the same for all classes, which has been my point from the beginning. I really don’t see what you are getting at.

You were defending Mesmers based on the belief that these strong skills are ‘easily’ dodged. When I explained that they aren’t, and are infact easier to land than any other skill from any other class. Even if they were slow, they would still be landable.

You obviously have difficulty debating by not understanding the flow of logic from your opponent. Naturally your first defense towards this is ‘then learn to get your point across’. There comes a point in which you must also compromise and learn how to understand an opponent’s point. Which you apparently do not do.

I said that iLeap is just as easily dodged as other classes. You provided no argument that they are easier to land than other classes. Your argument is that in a hectic fight, slow attacks are harder to avoid. You provided no argument as to what makes the mesmer exceptional in this situation.

Simply because the Mesmer has stronger nukes, and they’re AoE. iLeap, Blurred Frenzy, Mass-Shatter will cause death 90% of the time, then they can simply Distortion stomp.

That single rotation is what makes them so devastatingly strong compared to other classes. Not nerf-worthy though. Phantasms are the only thing I’d nerf.

Now Rangers, and Thieves on the other hand need a massive nerf-slap.

Heh, as a Necromancer, I enjoy making people stand and fight with me. I’m like that guy in the movies always going “HOOOOOLD!!!!” as the enemies rush at me in overwhelming force.

But that’s only because I physically can’t run away. No mobility, brah.

Manekk.6981:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Manekk.6981:

It’s better to get more crits than fewer and bigger crits, you’re a ranger after all they are tiny anyway you have one single skill across all weapons capable of doing big numbers and that is maul on greatsword everything else is needles pricks compared to other classes make sure they crit as often as you can to make up for being tiny.

I say on a power crit spec you want over 50% crit chance with oils and food this should be easy to get.

I would suggest ignoring this person… since he thinks Ranger does less damage than other classes…

It depends entirely on your build, as I said. Sometimes it’s better to have more crit chance, especially for hybrid builds.

I suggest you ignore this person since he is likely unable to read very well, listen to my advice because it was sound advice.

A ranger does less damage than other classes if you disregard the pet that’s not even up for debate our personal attacks do less damage than other classes and aside from maul none of them will give you very big numbers go for the sustain in critting more often because +crit damage does absolutely nothing unless you crit in the first place so make sure you do.

The only thing you need to consider is fury the higher uptime of fury you have access to the lower your critchance can be.

Sword autoattack. Sword 2. Greatsword 1. Greatsword 2. Greatsword 3. Even Greatsword 4. Each of these will crit for high damage (1k-3k) when built properly. That’s not even with might stacking.

In tournaments, I use a roaming build where I don’t even use my Pet, I’ll set my Pet to guard a capture point while I roam off to cap a different one.

You know not your own class.

I would argue that Stealth should be a permanent tool, but you have to move slowly whilst in stealth, and have no regeneration. I would then retool the Thief completely to be more of a “Surprise! Ambush mothakitten” using stronger traps. Instead of the “Surprise! Surprise! Surprise! Surprise!” nonsense we have now.

DaShi.1368:

Yes, in that case, the issue is not the mesmer because it is the same for all classes, which has been my point from the beginning. I really don’t see what you are getting at.

You were defending Mesmers based on the belief that these strong skills are ‘easily’ dodged. When I explained that they aren’t, and are infact easier to land than any other skill from any other class. Even if they were slow, they would still be landable.

You obviously have difficulty debating by not understanding the flow of logic from your opponent. Naturally your first defense towards this is ‘then learn to get your point across’. There comes a point in which you must also compromise and learn how to understand an opponent’s point. Which you apparently do not do.

Cempa.5619:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Shatter: Staff -> Sword/Focus

Phantasmal: Greatsword -> Sword/Pistol

Shatasmal: Staff -> Greatsword

Now that we have that out of the way…

What would the Phantasmal build look like? Get both +15% illusion traits or not?

The Phantasmal build is the meta, and it’s easy to reproduce. Generally 20/30/0/0/20 in my experience. I had some unique Mesmer builds, but I’d have to remake the toon in order to get supreme accuracy, which I’m not interested in doing.

Essentially all that theory crafting for Mesmer takes is randomly allocating points to power, precision, or illusions and then picking whatever traits make your nuke boom larger, or your pets bite harder. It’s hard to go wrong there.

Atherakhia.4086:

Have any of you played any other games with stealthing classes? WoW for example? Rogues in WoW, Thieves and Assassins in Shadowbane, and Scouts in DAoC all dropped target. Perhaps the point is for the combat in these scenarios not to be fluid because these classes are effectively stopping the engagement and starting over?

Have you ever played any of the other games with stealthing classes? WoW for example? They’re generally overpowered as hell. Rogue especially.

Your argument was that Mesmer skills are easily identifiable and dodgeable. My argument was, is in a heated fight, you’ll never have the capability to identify individual animations. That’s why Warrior Killshot can be strong in group fights. That’s also the only way Necromancers land Epidemic.

Parisalchuk.9230:

Guild: Jackson Five [five]
Region: NA
Activity: Medium
Contacts: Me via PM or in game

Currently not looking for anyone as we await arenas to exit beta to restart playing competitively.

I was going to make an awful joke about exploitation… but then I decided not to, sorry.

… wha… dod…. wa… Are you trolling? I think you’re trolling. You almost got me there by completing ignoring context. Nice one.

Invision.1307:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

You do not know anything about Ranger. Try playing Minionmancer, or Conditionmancer for 10 minutes. I dare you. I double dare you.

In this case, I bet you’re talking about a 1v1 duel with Minionmancer and Ranger? Did I ever say anything bad a bout a solo Ranger?

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

I stack more bleeds using a Sigil of Earth on Shortbow auto then I ever could with Scepter, in less time at that.

This is easy to cleanse (most healing spells cleanse these).

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Pets do not die fast at all, I’ve been able to keep a Hawk alive in 5v5 against 2 Elementalists AND an HGH Engineer.

I’m guessing those players were really bad. Also, I bet this never happened, just an example you throw at me, but pretend to be true. Not that I’m denying it, but it seems like a stupid lie you’re throwing at me.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Invision, a Thief could Heartseeker through the bloody thing and grant AoE healing because it’s an incredibly dumb combo field, far more effective than Staff Ele’s water tree.

Let’s say there’s a team fight at Keep on FoN, and the ranger has the combo field on the point. Then a thief could go stay behind Keep (on the hill) and shoot cluster bombs (#2) on it, which he has tons of, and grant healing to all nearby allies.
P.S: I said this earlier, in last post, and stated that it was great, so I don’t understand why you point this out.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

And if you still doubt Ranger’s effectiveness in group play, I have one word for you: Root.

This is very easy to escape (by dodging or killing it with AoE), which means it’s not a good immobilize. If you’re a thief, it’s even easier, as you can just use any teleport skill, not just stun-break teleport skills.

-Invision.

You really know nothing of other classes. No, I was talking about group play. Minionmancers are incredibly bad in group fights, their Minions will die in seconds compared to Ranger, and are MUCH harder to recover.

Yes, Bleeds may be easy to cleanse, but rangers have massive access to it, Necromancers do not. That’s also a very dumb argument, I might add. “Most healing skills cleanse these”

Troll Ungent is really overpowered when used properly, you know? Just because you can’t figure out how to allow your pet to survive, or how to make Thief last and not be ‘glassy’ shouldn’t mean that I lack the capability.

Root is not ‘easy’ to escape, it requires physically mashing in order to escape, which is a MASSIVE CC! In group fights that’s atleast 1-4 seconds of immobilize, or worse! Have you ever played a condition Necromancer? We have a glitch sometimes where we have to literally manually target the root, and autoattack it to escape. That’s 180 damage to the root per auto-attack. If you’ve ever been outside of your Ignorangerance to see how slow a Necro uses Staff/Scepter, then you’d realize that by the time the Necro escapes, he’s already dead. If you want to escape root faster, then you have to use a Cleanse, THEN a dodge. Which is still a huge advantage, because you’re forcing your opponent to waste something just to live in the first 3 seconds of a skill.

Oh, and Root is essentially an auto-kill for all pets and AI.

http://media.tumblr.com/f722aa9493a1532be5479525848e9bc1/tumblr_inline_mfd3t0Vl061qiv5yk.gif

I’d go for Rampager’s. Anything that has a high precision bonus is fine. You’ll be having a bit of a hybrid going on I suppose with the extra condition damage. Honestly, in your position, I’d go for Knight’s gear.

I would run away on my Necromancer, but then again, I can’t.

I suppose that’s why I’m a nightmare for longbow Rangers.

I would put the 20 you have in toughness into healing… but that’s fine. With your build, you have alot of power, I would recommend going purely for crit chance. Make sure to get a superior Sigil of Air to go along with it

That’s a good comparison for Mesmer, Gank. I’m assuming the comparison for Warrior would be Raiden from Metal Gear Solid back when he urinated all over himself.

Chicho Gosho.6507:

But you can walk out/dodge the root. I’ve done it. Also just one necro with minions and the root is wasted. I don’t think that 1 skill makes a class group friendly. I’ve also played against teams with good aoe and the pet dies really fast.

On the topic – i don’t think mesmer should be nerfed. It’s not like he can move while using blurred frenzy.

One Necro with Minions and the root is wasted… how is it wasted? You just killed all of my Minions.

These ignorangers are very annoying. It’s like I know more about their class than they do… (Considering I play Ranger more than most classes)

Shatter: Staff -> Sword/Focus

Phantasmal: Greatsword -> Sword/Pistol

Shatasmal: Staff -> Greatsword

Now that we have that out of the way…

Guild name: Guild of Dark Sorcery [GoDS]
Activity: Daily (Atleast 1/5th of the Guild is on at any one time)
Requirements: Must have knowledge or a will to learn Necromancer, Mesmer, or Elementalist. (We will teach you if you are not familiar)
VoIP: Mumble, Teamspeak, Vent, Skype, Xfire
Contact: Me. (Preferably through PM, or whisper me ingame)

Archaon.6245:

But you know…we have clones so we definately deserve more nerfs…

/sarcasm

How does that qualify as Sarcasm… or even as funny?

I’ve seen many Rangers doing this in fights. Luckily though, I’m not an idiot. I have enough tPvP experience against pet builds to target the pets first. Since 99% of the time, pets are tougher than the caster.

Manekk.6981:

It’s better to get more crits than fewer and bigger crits, you’re a ranger after all they are tiny anyway you have one single skill across all weapons capable of doing big numbers and that is maul on greatsword everything else is needles pricks compared to other classes make sure they crit as often as you can to make up for being tiny.

I say on a power crit spec you want over 50% crit chance with oils and food this should be easy to get.

I would suggest ignoring this person… since he thinks Ranger does less damage than other classes…

It depends entirely on your build, as I said. Sometimes it’s better to have more crit chance, especially for hybrid builds.

DaShi.1368:

Copenhagen.7015:

The problem is not Blurred Frenzy. It is the broken piece of crap that is Illusionary Leap. It’s nearly impossible to telegraph, and most of the time doesn’t leap, but just appears right in your face. UNAVOIDABLE. Shimmerless there is nothing distinctive about the animation, especially on Asura, which most Mesmers seem to run. How can Warrior leaps be so slow and obvious, but Illusionary Leap is a super speed run/leap that pops up next to you and says HI IMMOBILIZESHATTERRRRRRR.

It is not unavoidable. Both the animations of the mesmer and the appear of a the sword clone leaping at you are clear tells and not very fast. They give you more than enough time to react. Only swap is fast, but there are ways to avoid that as well. If you aren’t able to react to these, then every class will need nerfs on their skills to accommodate your abilities.

Funny… because Necromancer has the slowest and most tell-tale abilities in the game… yet I rarely see people dodge it in a group fight…

And Warriors’ Killshot doesn’t seem to be dodged much in a fight either… could it be that we’re not super human enough to look at what direction you’re waving your hand in?

By the way, Mesmer skills aren’t slow in the least.

Invision.1307:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

3) False. Completely, utterly, false. Thieves have some of the highest mitigation in the game. Blind and Stealth being the top tier damage reduction capabilities. Combine that with their idiotic cleansing capabilities, and they’re practically immune to all forms of condition damage outside of HGH Engineer facerollery.

Have you ever played tournaments? The thieves are almost pure damage in tournaments, to do exactly what Frellin said; burst down an enemy in team fight, escape.
You almost never encounter a thief using cleansing traits and blinding on stealth, as this reduces a lot of the burst.

Are you joking? At high level Tourney play I see Blinding Thieves all the kitten time. D/P, S/D, and P/D are incredibly strong when used properly. I have a Necromancer with 24k HP and no toughness that can act as a bunker for a long period of time simply because of Well of Darkness and Deathshroud. That’s not even 1/10th of what a Thief can do. Blind is the strongest damage mitigation skill in the game, with Stealth being a close runner up. I’ve seen Thieves bunker far longer than any Guardian.

It’s Thieves like you that make other Thieves not realize the true potential of the class. I’m telling you right now, when used to their fullest, Thieves are downright broken. I’ve seen single Thieves hold off, and even down multiple opponents in high level tournaments. They have practically UNLIMITED dodging when specced for, mix that in with caltrops, and every opponent in an area is suffering from 25 bleeds and 20 seconds worth of cripple in mere moments.