Guild Wars 2

@red true but its funny …..and the build doesnt allow you to live ….i have plenty of videos of 4 v 1 3 v 1 2 v 1 1 v 1 and even zerg v zerg. my builds allow me do kill slower but also survive alot more. d/d like this is a suicide wish. :P

d/d thieves fold real fast. most of there steal is attached to CND. if they miss one they arent doing much dmg :P if they miss 2 they are dead unless they have shadow refuge which they usually dont. d/d usually brings signet of shadows…..assassins signet and haste or infiltrators or blinding powder or shadowstep. d/d doesnt have burst. they only have a 2 hit combo now. :P if they do down a target they usually die before being able to finish stomping it.

@Brass it is all how you define single target dmg…is it DPS? or single hit ? or sustainable dmg? either way mesmer wins the ghighest dmg. they are beasts.

asuran race is very hard to target. or i should say MUCH more so than a norn char or even humans etc.

especially as a thief hopping all around.

This video is with valkyrie/bersekr/other stuff so its nto max dmg but still high. its about 80% of what it should be. i only have a few mini clips but likie i said i havent had any requests for this kind of video but if people find it funny ill go around ganking people lol.

RedSpectrum.1975:

Travlane.5948:

this is my build not influenced by anyone but me. am in the first? idk idc lol . but this is what i run wheni wanna be a jerk….which usually costs me my life. i should go make a 15 min video of 10 sec clips of me ganking people so it “looks” OP.

Do it, I’m in need of some entertainment. And well, it’s a build I’d never run :p

lol ill show you a 20 sec clip. i havent done much yet but heres some : check next video i add in a min.

there i fixed the the “d/p ls supposed” if u look it says PlSS and the grammar correcter blocked it out. but it makes perfect sense. what didnt you understand. i can use small words if that helps? none of what i say is nonsense…..hence me showing videos and the only person to also show realistic s. nobody else puts it in mathematical perspect. a skill can do 50k dmg per hit but if it hits at a .01 success rate….thats fair :P if u look at it as OMG a thief can spike a 50k hit….well then that just looks unfair due to skewing the facts towards your own goals.

this is my build not influenced by anyone but me. am in the first? idk idc lol . but this is what i run wheni wanna be a jerk….which usually costs me my life. i should go make a 15 min video of 10 sec clips of me ganking people so it “looks” OP.

spvp wont work bc of the 50% dmg debuff for all classes. sux and unfair bc its not an even downgrade although on the surface it appears to be.

BEST BURST WORST BUILD IN GAME:

30 30 0 0 10

III IX XII
II III XII
0
0
IV

Signet of Malice-Signet of Agility-Signet of Shadows-Assassins signet-Basilisk Venom

Full Zerk armor with scholar runes Full Zerk accs with zerk jewels

run D/D and SB

Operation: BAS VEN to SIG OF MALICE to ASSASS SIG to SIG OF AGI to SIG OF SHAD to CND then quickly to STEAL finish then BACKSTAB and its gauranteed to down any class / player if you get it off.

enjoy the OP ness….and all the deaths that come right after lol :P u might even hit 25k backstabs or 30k+ if they have frenzy or 35k if frenzy and lots of vulnerability on

EDITORS NOTE: RUn sigil of bloodlust and get 25 stacks run curry food and master maint oild. then ur talking huuuuuuuuuuuuge.

actually i do it alot. but on the offensive side….u have healing ele builds clensing and healing the front lines and hammer warriors with stability using KDS etc and the necros dropping enemies boons and spreading epidemic ……guardians up front too……its a kitten show…….look at BT from TC…..or BP (my guild) from dragonbrand. …. i can find you videos of a 50 v 50……and not ONE of our players being downed……now thats just crazy…..i think we used like 2-3 thieves out of 50 and they ran venom share builds. and blast finished before going in.

@fiesty the d/p thief may have been good…but what i saw was him overplaying his capabilities within that build. d/p…“is” supposed to (when playing a theif) slow down …stay invis a lil longer and make smarter decision(wait til the gap when all stunbreaks are gone and low endurance then bs) hence a GOOD thief vs a GOOD thief usually is a draw. a great thief vs a great thief is always a draw.

btw im talking 20k + backstabs on average……12k CnD. but you sacrifice all defense for it. so you HAVE to run with people.

swinks…..there is no more burst. i can give you a signet build that can kill anyone in 2 hits…but ur usually dead right after. lemme know if u want it.

yep. true. due to the fact our hp/defense is accumulated so low….we have to ahve shadow refuge and shadowstep and either blinding powder/sos.

it is apples and oranges. ….. and thats the biggest problem for people QQing. you are twisting the meanings of backstab/shatter.

backstab : deal double damage from behind.
stealth: only removable on damage (says nothing about attack attempts) hence both being unrelated.

Clone/Phants: Summon each on roll or skill etc.
Mind Wrack: Destroy all your clones and phantasms, damaging nearby foes.
(notice how it doesnt say damage nearbye foes and destroy clones) its all about how it reads/ is defined. everything works as it is.

about the comment you said stealth isnt possible in the first place. well yeah i said try to keep it inperspecting in a realistic sense “if thats possible considering this is all science fiction/Fantasy” ….both means NOT REAL lol reread or re carefully. anyway lemme try put it into something you can understand since that analogy didnt work.

real life example : target foe is fighting you in the dark or is blinded or w.e. (basically he cant see you) now u swipe at him in the air and he ducks down to pick up something he dropped….. does that mean he now knows where you are? almost assuredly no unless ur a clumsy kinda thief :P….what if u actually stab him…in the back or front…. think he will know where you are now? :P

now lets in real life pretend clones are manakins with bombs in them. in order to hurt a target they need to be near. if they are or arent and you blow them up ….regardless they are still blown up. doesnt matter if you deal damage or not.

if these 2 sounds like apples and apples ……well then theres no point in arguing. this is the waythe game is designed …..

ps. i noticed you TOTALLY IGNORED MY POINT/QUESTION : so try answer it this time.

what PERCENTAGE do YOU think is FAIR for thieves to successfully land a BACKSTAB?

Now keep in mind a fail = missed attack….blocked attack….dodged attack….aegis attack….attacking clones/pets/minions……a face stab….and running out of stealth before you could land it.

according to numbers : asura. they take less damage. “before you say wth are you talking about” try remember how hard its is to target one :P

well its all about definition. if u think the definition should be change thats a different story. but think about it in a realistic sense if thats possible bc all this is really Science fiction / fantasy. if you are invis do you think missing an attack is going to reveal you to your enemy or actually physically touching them? i think this is were anet was trying to go with this. plus the way it balances.

even tho everyone seems to ignore the s on successful backstabs. they think it should be under 10? what does everyone thing backstab should be at for a successful hit. lets start with that. you guys cant just ask for change without comprehending the implications of that change. find out what is “fair” then figure a way to get there once you have a goal. right now all ur saying is from YOUR perception its not fair. and from a THIEVES perception it is fair. so how does one / anet decide on how or if to change somethign. they first decide upon a goal….then they figure out the %s of success as currently is. then derive a plan of attack to fix the problem from there. i dont mind if change needs to be made. but the question is….does it?

now just petty arguing….i could compare apples to oranges all day so here we go: according to your analogy…. warriors dont lose adrenaline when their burst misses….does that mean thieves shouldnt lose initiative when their attack misses? …..
well lets compare steal…..steal is a 45s cooldown and if it “misses” or aka “out of range” it ALSO has a cooldown .

there is a difference to a prerequisite condition and a prerequisite cost. intiative is a prerequisite cost…….stealth is a prerequisite condition. shattering mesmers is a cost…. hence not being able to shatter without them.

we have apples and oranges here. they are all designed separate according to what their class needs/ is fair for.

Daokitten618:

What a load of kitten. You would like a high damage, teleport to remove conditions and a stun?

No.

the teleport is high dmg? really how?

nagymbear.5280:

Travlane.5948:

thieves are one of the classes that have very high rewards if played….perfectly….
when you make mistakes you usually pay for them with life. high risk high reward. its just the way it is….

IMO a perfectly played thief will only get caught/killed if he wants to, or bites more than he can chew. And yeah I’m not one of them, so you can say L2P to me. I know you want to…

lemme ask you this. how many times do you get backstabbed while you are not in stealth?

nagymbear.5280:

Travlane.5948:

thieves are one of the classes that have very high rewards if played….perfectly….
when you make mistakes you usually pay for them with life. high risk high reward. its just the way it is….

IMO a perfectly played thief will only get caught/killed if he wants to, or bites more than he can chew. And yeah I’m not one of them, so you can say L2P to me. I know you want to…

if playing perfectly is avoiding group play AND only playing 1 v 1….well then yes. if i play a thief 1 v 1….ill never lose……ever ever ever if i want to that is. but of course thats not really playing for a win. thats “re trying” which is fine bc its how the class is made. but if ur in zerg setting ofr 5 v 5 or 50 v 50 or 100 v 100 ….then you have to play amazingly careful. hence why d/p sux outside of small scenarios. 1 v 1 id give it 2nd place in all builds across all classes. 1st going to the immortal mesmer.

Master of Timespace.2548:

Travlane.5948:

Master of Timespace.2548:

Travlane.5948:

no other class has a “lose this effect when you deal dmg” type of skill. stealth is unique. its comparing apples n oranges.

Other classes have stealth too, smart guy. They just don’t have the spammable stealth attack.

sorry maybe i missed one. what other class has a skill LIKE stealth that is “remove this skill/effect when player deals dmg” ?

For example

Warrior: adrenaline is lost when he lands his burst skill.
Mesmer: clones are lost when shatter is attempted, regardless of if the shatter lands or not.
Mesmer, Engineer, Ranger: stealth is lost if they deal damage while stealthed.

ok adrenaline is kinda close…but its like backstab….ON damage. his rage will not go away until he fulfills that bloodlust by actually hurting another.

clone shatter is 100% totally different. it does not say deal dmg to surrounding players and shatter if you do. it says shatter then deal damage if there are surrounding players.

if u reread my 2 posts….i said there is no other “remove skill/effect upon dmg” type of SKILL in the game. STEALTH is unique. i never said other players dont have stealth. and i said similar skills. probably just read it wrong. no big deal.

not all die like thieves do. blocks….aegis …. protection and invulnerabilty will alow ANY player with them to get into the heart of an enemy zerg. or at very least to bunker up in a ball and break enemy formation. especially with stability which wawrriors/guardians and many others have.

sorrow.2364:

Travlane.5948:

running full bersker has a drawback no matter how you look at it. your hp is crazy low and collateral dmg kills stealthede thieves alot. it happens very very very very fast.

zvz ….stealth is good if ur on extreme edges but a thief in no way will ever split up peopel in large groups. unless u mean hunt down “the” split up sheeps then yes they can do that. but split up sheeps are usually wimping out of a fight and not contributing much if at all anymore so it becomes a zvz and then you vs them kind of deal

So Berserker thief has drawbacks?
Let’s see. Pick a Necromancer/Engineer/Ranger or whatever you want excluding Mesmer. Pick the Berserker amulet. Put MAX 20 traitpoints in a defensive traitline (Toughness or Vitality). Now tell me if you feel as protected as a Thief is with 20 points in Shadow Arts or Acrobatics.

About ZvZ, it is about the melee Thief playstyle. Either you run Shortbow or P/P and attack people from range or you kill the lone sheeps. Every profession dies in the AoE of a big zerg, not only Thief.

Azraeel.1238:

You are all forgetting one main aspect, other than stealth and evade, we don’t have any defensive buffs to actually compensate. To actually dodge 3 times consecutively you need at least 15 in acrobatics, the vitality tree, which also means you are sacrificing dps for it. As for the endurance refill signet, it is good, but not as good as shadow refuge, Shadowstep, and the increase movement signet.

Another thing is, to be able to refill endurance faster, we need to melee, again, without enough toughness, going face to face with anyone could be deadly.

Last thing is dodging requires good timing, unlike popping buffs and taking everything to the face.

You know what 15 traitpoints are worth? Nothing.
Why can’t I have the same survivability on my Necromancer by putting 15 traitpoints into Death Magic? The only thing I have is Reanimator, maybe Greater Marks and Protection of the Horde. Kind of a big deal, you say? What about Blood Magic? Full of Life (5s of regen on 90 HP!), Vampiric (40hp healed on hit! OMG!).

What about any other profession?
Let’s say Guardian.
15 points in Valor -> Valorous Defenses (Aegis on 50% HP! WOW!), Courageous Return (Courage recharged on Rally! OMFG!). Adept skills also do nothing relevant.
15 points in Honor -> Vigorous Precision (Vigor on critical hit, kinda good, but enough?), Selfless Daring (100 hp healed on dodge). Adept traits -> nothing worth taking.

I can continue this kitten for every profession in this game. No profession allows you to run full berserker that carelessly at the cost of ONLY 15 traitpoints. This is the whole point.

Last thing to say: dodge requires skill and timing if you have only few dodges available, not if you have loads of them. In that case, you can just guesstimate when to dodge.

it of course does. i said that too hastily. i was talking in pure output. output is what keeps thief alive since incoming dmg is nearly impossible to reduce.

and d/p is too good in what sense? u mean 1 v 1 or roaming to pick of strays? a build thats not changing group play or changing zerg function.

imo u wanna know the strongest skill in group play? sure its up for debate. but EPIDEMIC on necros is just amazing. aaaaaaaaamaaaaaaaaazing. no calls for nerf? that one skill makes more change to a group than any several a thief could do.

Sunflowers.1729:

Travlane.5948:

u guys think D/P will get busted next?
if so what should change?

Being able to run away from anything is silly. The build has little to no counters and is excellent for WvW roaming. It has high sustainability, condition removal, and damage.

They can just change anything and it will be a nerf, because as it stands D/P is far too good.

Edit: I’m not saying that all of these should be nerfed, because that’s too much. What is probably going to happen is that WvW traps stop Thieves from running away when they lose.

maybe. but being able to die to ANY class in 2-3 seconds is crazy too. :P wheres the trade off?

Master of Timespace.2548:

Travlane.5948:

no other class has a “lose this effect when you deal dmg” type of skill. stealth is unique. its comparing apples n oranges.

Other classes have stealth too, smart guy. They just don’t have the spammable stealth attack.

sorry maybe i missed one. what other class has a skill LIKE stealth that is “remove this skill/effect when player deals dmg” ?

all these QQers want stealth nerfed and d/p spam nerfed and backstab nerfed…… last FOTM was mug. our burst is dead. should all of these happen to. they QQ about CND that got nerfed….dancing daggers nerfed….haste nerfed…..pistol whip nerfed…..tactical strike nerfed…..cluster nerfed…… i mean the list goes on. some of those obv deserved it but what im saying is when will it stop?

no other class has a “lose this effect when you deal dmg” type of skill. stealth is unique. its comparing apples n oranges.

Sunflowers.1729:

Azraeel.1238:

Sunflowers.1729:

Doing a Backstab on a block does not reveal you.

Honestly, a pretty fair middle ground is to increase the range of Backstab by a decent amount and slap a 2 second cooldown onto it (even if you miss).

Guess I got revealed by coincidence then, in any case, your suggestion will sound logical if it was a ranged attack, but a real backstab should remain close very close. The way it is now is challenging and fun, going with any of the two suggestions would kill it.

My suggestion is definitely not a very good one

However, landing Backstab now isn’t very challenging because I just go 1111111111 and that’s all there is to it.

Aegis? Blind? I don’t care. 11111111 always works (and it always crits so I don’t even have to care about weakness either).

i am not calling you wrong but ur leaving info out. in order to spam 1 while stealthed. while in stealthed you can only attempt a backstab once per 1 second max sometimes slower idk if its due to lag or what. but 1 per 1 sec is the norm. so in order to go 1111111111 you could have to be invis for around 13 seconds. usually 2-3 to get behind and then smash BS 10x int he next 10 secs. ill go out on a limb and say 4-5 secs is average invis time WHILE trying to go for a backstab. this does mean when people spam 5 2 2 2 5 2 2 to heal up on d/p build. what it means is while going for the actual bs they only have an average of 2 chances to land it max per invis. when BS fails at a rater higher im guessint easily 70%(fail = miss or block or aegis or dodge or face stab or leaving invis without a good bs) this means you have about a 50% chance to fail on both backstabs. VERY high. and in the same respect 9% to land 2 successful ones ina row.

Sunflowers.1729:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Tulisin.6945:

The Game Slayer.7632:

why are theives forced into always going full berszerker??

Thief defenses are skill based, not stat based, so you shouldn’t be surprised when stats fail to help thief defenses.

Exactly, why should it be that way? isnt that kind of counterintuitive??

It’s not really that stats don’t help you survive more – they do but it’s not really a lot. Stealth is just so good that you don’t need anything else.

Let’s look at another class – the D/D elementalist. Why do so many of them build bunker stats? Surely running 3 cantrips and having lots of heals is enough? It’s certainly more heals than any Thief, and more stun breakers than any Thief. They even have on-demand protection from Earth attunement. Yet there are very few berserker D/D elementalists, and lots of berserker Thieves.

The answer is that stealth is just too good. I can run berserker because in small fights, it is a guaranteed target drop – why chase that Thief that may or may not be there, when you can just hit that (whatever other class). In 1v1s it lets me control what happens – if my health is low, I just don’t attack until the 30 point stealth trait gets it back up. D/D elementalists don’t have this luxury so you see all of them build tanky. It’s become even more pronounced because the one thing that could rival stealth’s all-encompassing defense – their mobility – was cut by a lot with the RTL nerf.

As long as we have such easy access to stealth or stealth works the way it currently does, there will never be any reason to build anything that is not berserker. None at all. By the way, you kind of see this with Mesmers too.

*Condition damage is an exception, of course.

Edit: Actually a little toughness and vitality isn’t too bad, since you’re bound to get in bad situations and it might help. However stacking large amounts of them is pointless.

i pretty much agree here. but i have one small perception different. i think the change in total defense/decrease in dmg from stats IS SOOOOO BAD that it makes stealth more worthwhile ….not the other way around. only defensive trait worth investing for thieves is HP. well you could mix a lil toughness in spvp MAYBE bc of the huge across the board drop in dmg for all classes but generally not worth it. just hp.

Zephyrus.9680

Travlane.5948:

i actually ran a test in comparing (on video and posted) a thief with a 30 30 0 0 10 build and another thief with a 0 0 30 10 30 build and both with full zerk gear/accs. the 2nd build(more defensive) produces hits that average 715dmg per hit (used coyotes as a control) and the 1st (more offensive) build produces and average hit of 1545dmg per hit. thats a 55% difference in average hit. that is a total of 8300 dmg over 10 hits (about 8 seconds) aka an average of 1037dmg per second you are doing less just according to build.

This leaves you 3 choices:
1) Forced into Offensive traits + Berserker gear to keep dmg really high
2) Forced into Defensive traits + Carrion gear to go full condi/hp
3) Accept the 55% in dmg cut and pray you dont run into large groups and/or have enough juice to finish every class.

Wat? That doesn’t follow at all. You tested that offensive thief traits make a huge difference in damage (I assume for D/D because that’s the only case where I can imagine those percentages are true). Then somehow you conclude that, offensive stats are identical in importance to offensive traits?…

That doesn’t follow at all: the stats are the least important part of the trait tree. The only case where you need super heavy offensive traits and gear is D/D because it’s all burst and if burst fails or you get caught, its down in 1 combo. D/P can’t even do full offensive traits because it needs initiative for it’s offense.

Just switching a mix of knights and valk gear (keeping zerker earrings) gives roughly a 45% increase in effective HP to a thief. Again, the damage decrease will depend on the weapon choice but for S/D, for example, it’s very small. Investing in some vit and toughness, you will always get more % increase in ‘effective HP’ than loss in damage, unless of course its a gear choice that doesn’t have power as the main stat… (except for crit procs, power is almost twice as strong for increasing damage as precision, even for high crit damage). Obviously condition thieves have to go carrion because that’s their only legitimate choice so I won’t even go into that.

It’s true that most of a thief’s defense is not from stats and rather, from skills+traits but maxing full offense is very inefficient stat-wise (in terms of effective HP gain vs damage lost).[/quote]

i had 14.8k with my zerk gear (some HP in there so technically it wasnt true zerk. if it were the % wouldnt be 55 it would be somewhere around 70% less damage) my point is everything is soooo important with thief when dealing dmg…..no matter if u use soldiers armor and 30 in SA…ur still squishy. i could test that to prove it if you like :P but i hope my word is just taken at this point. took so long to do that first video. ok so the next step would be to test soldiers gear and a more “defensive” set of traitlines. im willing to bet theres an 75-80% difference in damage to full zerker and only about 11-12% less damage incoming. so if you hit for 1800 every hit in zerker with full offensive trait lines and take 1000 incoming dmg with that armor per hit……then if you compare it to soldiers with a defensive setup which should be donig about 80%less dmg = 3kittenage outgoing per hit now with the toughness formula im guessing its a total of aroun 12% less incoming dmg which isnt bad but its equal to 880 incoming dmg instead of 1000. and since soldiers has the same hp….its a net difference of 120 dmg per hit of 1200 per 10 hits.

so whats all this mumbo jumbo mean?

it means if you wear soldiers with defnsive setup you are losing 1440 dmg per hit and only gaining -120 incoming damage as the trade off. question is…. is THAT amount of outgoing damage worth THAT amount of dropped incoming damage?

Zacchary.6183:

Master of Timespace.2548:

PearlGore.7419:

We have to fight Thieves that Stealth too, we have no real special tools to deal with it infact we have less then say a class with a ton of quick AoE, yet no Thief complains about Stealth.

Just a random thought as I sit here and drink this cup of tears.

I hope you are kidding. Do you know what people mean by counter stealthing ? :P

:O Amg I totally get it now! They don’t want balance. They want a “true easy-mode”. It almost proves all of the claims I made against the more recent generation of videogamers.

stealth countering stealth is about equivalent to a guardian using aegis/block/pusbacks or a mesmer dodging and running in between clones to avoid BS. i have plenty of video of me backstabbing other thieves while they are invis :P

Sunflowers.1729:

Tulisin.6945:

PearlGore.7419:

We have to fight Thieves that Stealth too, we have no real special tools to deal with it infact we have less then say a class with a ton of quick AoE, yet no Thief complains about Stealth.

This is because blindly spamming “quick AoE” has never, ever, been a good stealth counter. The best counter to stealth has always been the ability to anticipate where your opponent is going to be even when you can’t see them, and either avoiding or attacking that spot. Thieves don’t have a problem with stealth since they can simply say “what would I do in this situation?”

People continue to perpetuate the idea that there’s some sort of magical mechanical counter to stealth if you use the right abilities, but all of the mechanical skills are useless if you don’t use player skill to fight stealth.

This is very true, and as an extra point I’d like to add that Thieves can do the same thing, so all the Thieves who say “see if you L2P Thieves suck” are talking out of their behind (because someone, somewhere, is going to say this)

As a Thief player who has multiple lv 80s of other classes, I do this a lot:

“What will this Mesmer (for example) do? He has a GS so he must be Phantasm build, so I will dodge immediately after Backstabbing. I won’t use Shadow Refuge unless necessary, and will get ready to dodge the GS #5”

Alternatively “This D/D Elementalist will try to slow me in Stealth so I can’t land the Backstab. I will use D/P #3 to land the Backstab from range. He will also have mist form up so using Basilisk Poison to open from stealth is a bad idea (although I always use Dagger Storm anyway).”

Even though stealth can be countered by skill, a skilled Thief can counter the stealth counters. (That’s why D/P still has no counters).

knock downs….push backs…..pulls…..immobilize….. get any of these off whhen a thief uses back powder shot. or eve better yet….use them after the first heartseeker….then what happens is he just use all but 2 or 3 initiative and is knocked down or immobilized for his entire 2 secs of stealth…preventing him from stacking it. …takes practice tho. you ccan also stand near black powder shot and get hit with the 2nd/3rd HS and him losing all his intiative and invis and geting revealed for like 1200 dmg. either one of these are devastating to the build.

u guys think D/P will get busted next?
if so what should change?

yup so true. thats why i said small groups :P

gotta say he IS quite passionate about breaking apart any people say in thieve’s defense :P

body shot is AMAZING what are you guys missing? lol….. no no just kidding. the ONLY time its amazing is when a small team is fighting a huge boss in PVE and you want to get them to 25% vulnerability whicfh is alot of dmg when 5 players are constantly attacking. the one skill stacking 25% could be hundreds of thousands of dmg depending on what boss (wizard etc). but other than that never waste the intiative lol

berserker gear is squishy thief and high dmg
PVT gear is a squishy thief and low dmg
carrion gear is a squishy thief and low dmg
valkyrie gear is a squishy thief and good/high dmg
soldiers gear is a squishy thief and low dmg
clerics gear is a squishy thief and low dmg
rampagers gear is squishy thief and good/high dmg

i play a bunkerish build in spvp and berserker gear type thief in wvw. have videos to show each if need.

DAMAGE AVOIDANCE:
d/p is about 50% stealth 50% blinds
s/d is 20 % stealth 80% dodge
p/d is 20% gear 80% stealth

anyone can be hit in stealth but no player in stealth can attack another making it a neutral state at best (unless condi build)……granted you manage to dodge all the opponents continued attack or lucky post stealth attacks.

i notice the higher the lvl of talent in opponents it matters greatly what is used. thieves if making 1 mistake should die or close to it when wearing berserkers … excluding 1 v 1 scenarios bc those are irrelevant to most if not all areas of pvp.

i actually ran a test in comparing (on video and posted) a thief with a 30 30 0 0 10 build and another thief with a 0 0 30 10 30 build and both with full zerk gear/accs. the 2nd build(more defensive) produces hits that average 715dmg per hit (used coyotes as a control) and the 1st (more offensive) build produces and average hit of 1545dmg per hit. thats a 55% difference in average hit. that is a total of 8300 dmg over 10 hits (about 8 seconds) aka an average of 1037dmg per second you are doing less just according to build.

This leaves you 3 choices:
1) Forced into Offensive traits + Berserker gear to keep dmg really high
2) Forced into Defensive traits + Carrion gear to go full condi/hp
3) Accept the 55% in dmg cut and pray you dont run into large groups and/or have enough juice to finish every class.

Disclaimer : All the above is opinion other than the stats which are from a video that was a controlled experiment . Also keep in mind that the thieves generally like high dmg to match the low defense low hp and low/no boons and no invulnerbility and no blocks and the medium armor facets of their class. if they had good/decent hp/defense then they could afford to tone down dps.

EoNxBoNx.9213:

Isn’t the punishment for a thief missing a backstab, hitting a frontstab, or a sidestab and getting a significant damage loss? I am sure that is more than enough. If the ability was too miss as a whole and reveal, it should be easier to land.

yeah :P its so hard to land as is with decent players and super hard with good players. i cant remember the last time i got a bs landed against me. even on my guardian.

Ghostwolf.9863:

We actually have more ways than any other class to counter our own class.

BP counters Backstab.
Headshot and Tactical Strike counters BP>HS
CnD counters stealth, if you are able to predict the thief
Our high evasion counters CnD and pretty much everything else.
Clusterbomb counters Shadow Refuge
Shadow Refuge counters Shadow Refuge
etc.

The “new” dodge spam build that many thieves started playing with is a
bigger issue when it comes to countering than what stealth builds are.

if “Counters” = “makes difficult” then yes. but most of those have no way to stop anything . :P

Mindtrick.5190:

Stop with the play by play chest thumping nobody cares how you fight. Make a YouTube video not a forum post.

Also to the OP, no. Backstab should and will for ever keep thieves in stealth when missing. Just trying to read your logic made me question your keybinds and everything in your small bubble. Are the walls around you soft and do you have a nurse checking on you every 15 mins

i only wrote the last 2 sentances of that big post. the other part was to make a quote on sebrent. ill try fix it.

Mindtrick.5190:

I read the first sentence of the OP it’s starts with , WTF blah blah blah I quit cause I’m angry grrrrrrrrrrrrr

I have no issue with a trap that stops stealth it’s just like any other red circle on the ground. You walk around it! Every tweak made to our profession you have a bunch of players that go postal. Welcome to a bit of the real world it’s so harsh, hahahahaha

…..thieves are getting used to being “dumbed” down so players of all lvl can kill them easier. its a pattern now for 9 months or so….not that some weren’t justified. imagine the flak and QQ we would see if they were making traps of the same nature that allowed no clones within it, or no ground targeting skills, or no block skills, etc etc etc. i think there would be a much larger uproar :P

PearlGore.7419:

Oh for god sake we dodge to much now? Just remove us from the game and be done with it, next month it will be that we get medium armor, month after that we do damage! Nerf it…

Worst PvP gamers I have ever seen.

the real problem is a L2 kitten ue …..but even deeper is that anet caves to them on this and nerfs waaaaaaaay too much. try buff other classes.

anet dumbed this game down to allow a more broad range of players to play it. simple marketing ploys due to economic interests.

Sebrent.3625:

Knockdown’s on the Axe? Nope.
Other classes have stunbreakers? Yep.

Compare how often an Axe warrior can knock you down/immobilize you compared to how often you can stealth. You’ll blow him out of the water … not to mention he has to then get that full rotation on you after he’s gotten you stunned/immobilized and hope that you don’t counter it.

I’d love to see the 5 sec immobilize btw … what is that skill? Is it in the same game as my Mesmer skill where I have a clone that passively summons other clones? Lol.

level 3 adrenaline skill i believe…… 4.75 seconds (i call it 5 but split hairs if u like)

Sebrent.3625:

Travlane.5948:

:P yeah. i know.. thief has 2 months before its dead i think. maybe on the 19th :/

Based on what exactly?

Azraeel.1238:

I couldn’t help myself but login to reply to this thread. I have 4 80s, last of which was a thief. I totally understand the 4 seconds revealed, but a backstab should never cause revealed if it was out of range miss. As far as I’ve seen, block and blind already throws us out of stealth with revealed. Heck if we leave the Shadow’s Refuge we get revealed.

It looks like you are getting nailed by backstab so much that you are taking “bad/average thieves” as an excuse. Backstab is one of the main thief mechanics which by itself is already hard to land. If your mesmer can’t defeat thieves, doesn’t mean they should get punished for throwing a BS far from you. So far I’ve read your arguments and all I found was someone who wants his mesmer to win easily against a thief.

(1) Look at the parts of your post I put in bold. The first one bolded proves that the second one is a lie. Why? Because if you actually read my posts, you would have read that I’ve said several time that I do not think a thief missing backstab for being out of range should reveal them; only if they are countered by an active defense (i.e. block, dodge, etc.)

(2) I have also listed in several posts why I think it should reveal:

• It punishes good non-Thief play (skill goes on cooldown and you still eat a backstab unless you use another 1+ defensive skills) and tt rewards bad play by the Thief (don’t care if you use a key attack against a blocking/dodging/etc. opponent, you’ll just put more of their defenses on cooldown.
• It is how every other attack mechanic works … with there even being a patch in January 2013 devoted to making sure they were working like this.
  • Note: if you’ve read, you’ll know that it’s already been discussed that this involves an assumption that backstab, tactical strike, etc. should work the same way just as it’s an assumption that they should not.

---

If going to put in your 2 cents, actually read what has been posted and focus on that rather than on the people. Your post could be summed up as: “I think you suck and that’s why you are posting what you’ve posted”.

That’s not very mature, does nothing for the conversation, borders on violating the CoC, and simply not true.

u know…stop being rude to other people in here thank you.….. when i say IMO or I THINK or I BELIEVE or MAY BE or PROBABLY or POSSIBLY ……………these do not mean im stating hard facts….its stating pure opinion. disagree if u like but dont say something as bonkers as “based on what” .

so again….IMO i think and believe that ,at the rate of nerfs in the past 8 months, thief will no longer be played as much.

alot has changed :P ….pets are beasts now….as in amazing

Brtiva.9721:

I used to play my thief in pve but I got tired of the constant changes and the fun slowly drained away. Stopped playing it about 2 months ago and now play my other toons which do not mutate each month. Just a question of fun for me.

I still peek in thief forums from time to time.

Interesting to watch how some people deal with NPCs that stealth. I often see them simply stand there and wait to be attacked after they stealth, or actually turn away and turn thier backs to them.

dear anet….. :P

running full bersker has a drawback no matter how you look at it. your hp is crazy low and collateral dmg kills stealthede thieves alot. it happens very very very very fast.

zvz ….stealth is good if ur on extreme edges but a thief in no way will ever split up peopel in large groups. unless u mean hunt down “the” split up sheeps then yes they can do that. but split up sheeps are usually wimping out of a fight and not contributing much if at all anymore so it becomes a zvz and then you vs them kind of deal

@welswift. ok ill bite :P……it is hard for us to take 3 good hits…..thats why we r griping about traps that target thieves…… what are the areas of comparison that we are talking about that would make a class generically the king of roaming? I.E. Damage/Mobility/Healing/Escaping/1vX’ing. make a list of areas then rate each class you put in the top 2 or top 3 a 1 to 10 score (10 being highest and 1 being crap) . see how it turns out. try be as unbiased as possible. remember you cant take the best of all builds.(i.e. thieves cant have super high damage and super high hp….balance there of etc)

@Sebrent “i bet” or “might” “would” …..usually means theres nothing of hard value. but a trap that only releases stealth for 3 seconds wouldnt do much if anything at all. unless it had a cooldown of 10 seconds then it would be devastating. they are my “bets” or “beliefs” as common sense says they will make stealth traps viable and not be OP …or atleast with the intentions there of.