Guild Wars 2

gonna have so much anti thief hate now :P at the same respect it should help teach people how to defend against thieves a lil too

thieves fight against stealth too. just remembered that :P

i do get the frustration but there is much frustration on our side to. we can do much in zerg battles (unless blast finishing before it starts)….even throwing in SB its super slow and yes it “can” hit hard but not if u get hit first playing defensively. most non thieves dont understand both sides.

all thieves play other classs
not all other classes play thieves

this means the perception will always be slightly skewed on average.

Aneirin Cadwall.9126:

evilapprentice.6379:

The thief is punished – s/he spent a bunch of time and CD’s contributing nothing. Winning != Stomping. If I make a bad call, run in, fight for 20 seconds, and end up running away, you’ve won. People need to understand that.

This argument in a world vs. world context makes no sense whatsoever.

Basically what you’re saying is that if a thief wins, I have broken armor and must return to spawn and run back to my objective.

If I win, the thief survives and runs 2000+ range away to get out of sight and continues about his business.

“Balanced!”

so a thief does that a few times a fight right? would anyone play thief if they couldnt do that? and by “that” i mean avoid dying 9 out of 10 fights? pfft i think not sir. :P

in a 1 v 1 scenario stealth is very strong. in a 50 v 50…its 95% less usefull. so much aoe dmg….fears….aoe stuns…..melee dmg….being in stealth in larger groups is “eh” . 1 v 1 it is amazing yes. although everytime im in stealth and going against any class that can attack without a target…“auto attack” i still take dmg almost everytime. dont get me wrong. any class would take stealth over invulnerbility for 3 seconds and everytime at that. but stealth comes at a hefty price to the HP/defense of a thief. if you shadow refuge or blackpowder shot and get knocked down/out or stunned or pulled/pushed or they cast stacks of AOE skills inside refuge/blck powder you are like a trapped rat. it does come at a price. personally im ok with having 10800 hp to start with and low defense. but u ruin stealth u ruin thief. i posted
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B4mbYlRiJw even a lil engineer can outplay good thieves. :P its very doable. again..im not sayin its not strong but i am saying its worthy of what thieves sacrifice to get it.

a training area might help? against AI thieves?might not be a bad idea
or AI mesmers?

cant do as we plz.. pft… signet of rage warrior can actually kill a thief faster than a thief can kill a SoR warrior. imagine if thief had a 5 sec immob could u imagine? warrior does :P guardian has a 6 sec one too (combine immob + kd signet)….if the guardian is specced for offense they can really do some harm.

this is for the bad players —-————-

PRO TIP: The is always a gap on stun breaks and shadowsteps etc. your job while in a battle with a thief (bc 1 v 1 is everythign in this game apparently) is to know which he used and when. 50 secs on shadowstep 45 on steal. once these 2 are used…99% of the time you know the best he can do is invis for a while…..as long as all his steps are on cooldown now is i your chance to stun and to knock down and perhaps immobilize if not playing a d/p…… remember to find the gap. :P people waste their skills so quick they end up wasting them.

wow…..maybe im just off today but im not absorbing much of anything said on this post 0_o.

thieves are one of the classes that have very high rewards if played….perfectly….
when you make mistakes you usually pay for them with life. high risk high reward. its just the way it is. people dont understand that bc they play a more balanced class and its medium risk medium reward. and guardians are usually low risk low reward. reward is like killing characters and having ego pumped up.

Also…

Necros Condition :

Take conditions from nearbye allies to themselves
Take conditions from self and spread to foes in area
Epidemic spreads the conditions on a foe and spreads them to EVERY enemy nearbye

Necro Damage:

AOE dmg
AOE fear
AOE ice

Very little single target damage. Necros are made for groups/zergs

engineers need a good buff i wont lie. but they are still good tho!

see?

necros are one of the top 2 players in zergs. easily. im not saying my server is the best…although we havent lost first player since i can remember……but guardians and necros are easily the 2 most important classes. thieves and rangers are the 2 least important (other than thieves spamming cluster for pre battle buffs in fire field)

oh boy. if backstab hit most of the time i would understand….maybe. but its such a hard skill to land and usually only 50% of the successful htis are more than 2k. pfft. this would ruin thief dmg down to about 6th place. doubt that will happen.

evilapprentice.6379:

TheGuy.3568:

First off lets cut the bullkitten. If the thief is S/D stun locking is not going to happen.

Any other thief build here’s your dilemma. Most good thieves will use Shadowstep Once they play this card there is no way tot catch them. The game is over. The only class that could possibly keep up is another thief or pure melee ranger.

Also there is this misconception that swiftness really help with mobility. Its bullkitten. Fact is mobility like RtL, rush, heartseeker, etc are the really mobility skills. Having swiftness/25% signets up is nice and all but mobility is about the weapon and utility skills.

Also as ranger your pet is free fodder for CnD.

Remember this you are fighting the second or third strongest duelist in the game.

It’s important to note with Infiltrators strike that if you stun or daze the target after the teleport but before the attack portion of the ability, the shadow step portion of the skill doesn’t activate. Not every class has an easy way to do this and it takes good timing, but since S/D needs to go pretty glassy to do effective damage, stunning a thief who just teleported directly to you and no longer has his primary escape mechanism available can end the fight almost instantly.

sorry i couldnt quite grasp or infer what you are trying to say here. mind giving it another go? im curious.

shield skill 5…..sanctuary….tome of wrath…ring of warding and line of warding can all push a thief out of SR if played right.

if you got him down to 10%……inless ur in a 1 v 1 tournament you have nada to worry about ….(good thing theres no 1 v 1 tournaments)

glad to read somebody actually posting they can beat thieves. :P when played right its so very doable.

kudos. btw if im 1 v 1 i usually bring 1 or 2 signets on my guardian…they really help when timed right.

Thieves dont have the highest single target dmg in game. although very close. mesmer is without a doubt number 1 right now. especially for burst. this can be proven in a video very easily.

Stealth is arguably the best defense mechanic in the game its also the most debilitating one. Invulnerability is the best IMO and blocking 2nd. many blocks/aegis in the game you can still do damage while in that “mode” …invulnerability is the best even tho it is only 3 seconds on average. in stealth u can still take damage…and usually as much as you give if not more in group settings. stealth is probably the best escape in the game without argue…..although moa skill 5 could be thrown in there although super rare.

Royce Melborn.3276:

Basilisk Venom is the best elite skill by far. Steal to your target with basilisk venom —> cnd --> backstab —> down. If you are fighting a tough tanky build follow with 2x heartseeker and your enemy is dead.
I agree it’s pretty bad in zergs bur for roamers who fight 1 – 4 enemies at a time it’s the best elite skill.

if u can cnd + bs and an enemy is down u have a horrible build :P 1 v 1 is the only thing it can do. cant even do 2 v 1 :P . can a thief do 20k backstabs on lvl 20s? definately. does he? no. why? obvious.

@EZRIEL i think you have a more ….unique….sense of perception. i played monk from guild wars 1 as my main. i would have played it here too but they didnt make monk unfortunately. from what im getting….the slower…support classes that cant run or jump around as much seem boring to you ….especially the ones that dont have cool combos. i imagine that monk is not your playstyle either right? slow…clumbsy….crap damage….no cool pretty combos or jumping around….and pretty much all group focused specs. alot of people like necros for the marks and aoe that totally can take command of a battlefield….aoe dmg on engie too with mad conditions on these 2 classes. guardians??? one group with and one without….the guardian groups should always win…..a VERY important part of any group. point is just bc they dont do what every other class does …doesnt make them not needed/important/ or an integral part of a winning formula. if u wanna feel needed an contribute at a super high lvl “play those classes” if u wanna roam and be selfish and kill strays…play thief all depends on what you think fun is. and thats why every class is different.

i guarantee they arent 3 secs. im willing to bet 10-20 secs at at time. might need mroethan 1 person to make them or “build” them with supply. who knows. 3 secs is just not worth the time. well unless it pulsed which would be just as bad as 20 secs.

here here! i 2nd lol

u trait for 3 intit on weapon swap :P ….so many other good things. i mean if trolling yeah i get it.

A) burst is dead.
B) invis is horrible bc u lose caps when stealthed.
C) very very squishie and 3rd highest output of damage.

thieves are not bad. i personally dont run them in spvp much unless i go condi bunker build. i like necro/guard. i think the next patch that changes skills you will see an emergence of “needing” thieves i got a feeling

@kolly u know…i never thought of that. its actually quite an amazing idea! you should go start a thread about that right now! especially for a 2 min cooldown….control should be included.

that aside their AI is actually pretty good. they dont always use there skills right away but wait for a moment when ur standing still(scorp wire) and up close(black powder shot) which is rather impressive.

squishy isnt really an issue as people never target them on purpose and if they do thats great for the thief. saves HP and deals extra dmg.

from a defensive PoV it now gives you full defense mode bc u have 2 thieves attacking you and both with CC so you never know when the real one is going to pop up . high anxiety situation basically….so may things coming at you and trying to avoid burst is a tough spot to be in.

Lighter.5631:

Travlane.5948:

Lighter.5631:

when you see thieves everywhere in tpvp, you know it means something

the only thieves you see are roaming in wvw now. spvp/tpvp/zerg/guild play is now no longer in need of what thieves bring. they arent the kings of burst anymore and yet still have the crappy defense. they still are amazing duelers but take too long to do it usually… in a 5 v 5 it puts alot of pressure on teamates when u go invis to heal/drop condis/set up for attacks and also puts pressure on you if more than 1 person targets u. dont wrry it will change soon i think. anet wants to increase our base dmg so we dont have to always have 30 in crit or 30 in deadly to do dmg.

you have no idea what you are talking about and what they can bring in group fights

they bring a sense of surprise…..and blinds. …. i mean yeah you can play bunker condi but it leaves basically 1 attack (sneak attack). i have plenty an idea :P …. wont bother explaining how as most everything in this game is uprovable…but im stockpiling footage right now that im going to make a video.

Numot.3965:

People forgot venom share exist.

venom share is really amazing. but outside of that its a cluster bomb fest ;P . i can fit daggerstorm in if i put it in my hp build. idk has options but not really as large a niche as most other classes. ranger gets kinda similar but atleast they have a few options and aoe dmg.

eh….its a pvp only skill really…if they doubled the knockdown it’d be considered in one of my builds.

if u trait it right u can do d/p main and s/d backup like i do in wvw when roaming . i run 0 30 20 20 0 and it doubles well..

very fun and very annoying to play against. nice video! agree w/ shadow its best in pve/spvp. nj

problem is people complain about strong roamers. they could trash thieves to no extent and even delete them from the game…..there is always a next. roaming is fun. does it have a place in wvw? eh not really. hella fun tho not really helping your world at all by taking out strays. but if thats what makes you happy do it :P if thats ALL you do ….prolly best to move to a lower server when theres queue alot tho….no point in taking somebodys spot who wants to be productive. just my POV.

ps…..i do roam but never when its busy or we are behind(im from dragonbrand. i cant remember the last time we werent in 1st) might even be in t1 soon enough. but anyway if my server was behind i would be capping camps then supplying up doing towers etc. sieging.

zach isnt attacking you. just saying its a shame we wont get anywhere like this :/

thieves guild is great in pvp too. seriously. it soaks up backstabs and dmg that wouldn normally hit you….. blinds enemy…..pulls enemy…..great dmg on enemy…..and lasts 20 secs. mathmatically there is no elite skill thieves have that compare. Daggerstorm is slow…leaves you very susceptible towards melee dmg as you cant avoid it block it or dodge it or even reduce it…..and the dmg on it is horrible unless you ahve liek 30 targets….if you have only 2 targets it rarely hits more than 2-3 times in those 8 seconds. basilisk venom was the only"comparable skill and that was before all our bursts were nerfed. now it only gives you like a free 2k dmg. (2 critical auto attacks)….. some could argue that it allows you to set up CND to BS but steal does that better than BV. ur better off rolling devourer and hit from behind and pop thieves guild while invis. i doubt anyone will say other than you…that thieves guild is the worst utility in game. i think the worst utility goes to scorpion wire or shadow trap.

:P yeah. i know.. thief has 2 months before its dead i think. maybe on the 19th :/

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Other than fighting a boss, I typically carry Dagger Storm.

What makes this worthy of an Elite slot is Venom Aura. In a coordinated party or group, you can literally freeze someone in place until they die.

Another reason why it is an Elite, not because of its power level, but it seems that Anet don’t want us using this with Dagger Storm.

Anet do this a lot in GW1. They place something as Elite because they don’t want it to be combined with another Elite skill by a single profession.

srrry….. what does this mean?

Professor Sensei.2941:

It’s by far the best elite skill for theives. Timed with a D/D burst it can be the end of someone.

if this is better than thieves guild…idk what ur doing lol. umm it is very very very verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry useful and was “almost” OP when thieves actually had a good burst. now its basically a 4th utility. should be on 30 sec timer considering its an elite in MY opinion. 45 secs is fair….30 would make it an elite. even 35 is ok.

Ralathar.7236:

randomfightfan.4091:

I’m fine with thhieves having such low hp. I’m not fine with their hp being that low but not compensated elsewhere (compared to other classes)

It’s compensated for. The difference is thieves have a more active defense style of play. Some classes have more passive defense. It’s hard to credibly complain about lack of defense when you don’t take advantage of what you have.

For example, d/d eles must actively use various skills for defense. Some of them have received nerfs and might receive more. They have lower damage than thieves for sure, and are far more predictable. Your average thief takes a few defensive skills, and yet since they are stealth related they instead use them for offense alot. This is called a tradeoff.

Meanwhile they ignore alot of other defensive options they have, even on the weapon sets they use!! This is why the insane focus on offense most thieves have ultimately ends up defeating them.

you have a point here… but its a tiny bit different. eles cant LITERALLY mitigate dmg and heal ALOT. thieves can do neither …however its hard to say what thieves are compensated for. thieves have great in combat mobility plus stealth. which of those covers which of these:

10.8k hp
medium armor
low boon access (no defensives)
no blocks
no invulnerabilty
lack of AOE . (yes i know cluster)

not complaining but its hard to say which comes at what price. does low hp and medium armor make up for getting invis? and does no blocks/invl/lack of aoe/no def boons make up for the mobility? hard to say

Okamakiri.8746:

Sebrent.3625:

If missing a single skill makes a class completely useless, then there is a massive issue in the design of the class.

For the first time in months of your trolling, we agree on something.

agreed. however getting people to admit there is reliance on stealth due many weaknesses is….well tough. :/ we need buffs…BEFORE ….they nerf (if they nerf us agin)

there it is :P

bad players. no push or pull skills? which means they have bad mes and bad guards. stun? aoe stun? fear? 4 diff classes can fear. not saying ur bad but they are. nice trollin :P i do similar with a p/d build with 22k hp … pikc the right target and making him bleed and hope he has little condi removal equipped. easier imo rock on man. oh yeah i think i have a video of a lil 30 sec fight that might be hated on :P hang on lemme find it.

stealth is usually 3-5 seconds unless the thief wants to waste initiative…..or utilities.

after going stealth the first second is avoiding dmg and the 2n-3rd seconds are setting up for a bs/tactical strike……this leaves 1 second…..if u block the first with aegis/roll etc you still felt nothing from the thief ….and “feeling” something (aka damage) is what causes reveal to pop. has to be direct dmg coming from a thief…… check out the video i posted above. its not hard to avoid backstabs….as he so casually/eloquently said lol. just takes a lil inside understanding of thief movement if ur having a problem try play thief. im tellin ya it will make your defensive on other chars so much much better.

more evidence shirked. 0-o lol whatever.

if the clones arent taking hits then the mesmer isnt using them right. as usual ill offer an IN GAME CHALLENGE with video ….(this being the 9th or so time) and u still wont take it. you are just looking worse every comment….there are plenty of ways to prove a problem/debate. you wont take any. u just wanna use opinion.

ATTENTION ALL READERS: would you rather see an in game experiment on and uncut video OR………….. just take a random players word that he is right?

hrm

blocks are differnt bc they are skill activated and class specific. every class has dodge evade. thief only has 1 unblockable attack so not like thats a hard counter or anything.

everything i said was fact. got them all from gw2 official site. idk maybe thats not a credible site? LOL pffft the best thief in the world running full zerk will die in 2 secs… :P (running blind powder and shadow refuge is NOT full zerk)

no matter how you argue it thieves are the most squishy and the potentially fastest character to kill in the game.

listen and watch …..especially to the comment at 5:20 ish

well considering ur about 5k higher HP …have clones as meatshields…phantasms as meat shields…..blocks…invulrnerabilty….and invis….id say no they arent :P ….a thief can always go down faster than a mesmer: FACT.

if any guardian dies in 2 secs they suck : ALSO FACT

the video was an example that thieves can deal a high amount of dmg but also die in 2 secs flat. point was proven. errrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Doomdesire.9365:

Travlane.5948:

infiltrators arrow is about 33%(if i remember right) less effective than heartseeker for distance gaining. dont feel like writing it out but it really is….. just a helpful tidbit.

I still think the arrow is better. Heartseeker isn’t instant teleport, plus it tends to snag things which gets you in combat and infiltrator’s arrow is great for teleporting up small cliffs and completely past enemies without hitting them head on.

HS does snag but IA only nets a 650ish gain for twice the init pretty much

ShadowLordX.5148:

Travlane.5948:

only 2 traits helps how fast you go tho….50% while invis and 20% reduced signet for infiltrators….well i guess 2 intiative per 10 seconds helps but thats 1 extra heartseeker per 20 seconds. idk i think its close tho we will have to see. maybe we can get some trial runs in before it starts. does race matter? dont norns have some skill that makes em a bird or something? or idk

If you cant see how other traits increase your speed you’re doing it wrong.

Vigor on heal, more dodges, more movement(a dodge roll is slightly faster than standard movement). Initiative on heal, you get 4 iniative on heal, which when combined with withdraw, equated to a good 900 or so mobility on your heal, which is also curing crippled/chilled/immobilize and giving you swiftness via runes of the centaur. Trick cooldown reduction reduces the time to reuse roll for iniative, which gives you 2 heartseekers + 600 movement on its own, while also nicely curing crippled/chilled/immobilize. You get even more initiative regen, you get dodge rolls cures cripples, and if you have enemies long reach on steal(which this will be through orr, there will be plenty of enemies.)

The speed on stealth is worthless btw, it doesn’t stack with swiftness and doesn’t go over 33% movement speed, so you’re better off with runes of the centaur and using your heal to increase your speed(withdraw already is amazing for fast movement anyways.)

EDIT: Norn might be ridiculous for this, snow lepoard gives absurd rush, but the long cooldown might limit it, but paired with a good thief build a norn thief would probably be the fastest set possible.

stealth speed is so very slightly faster than swiftness as i have tested it….but def not 50%. prolly 40 if i have to guess. and yes they do increase intiative etc…but thats increase in skills etc not speed. but i get what you mean. idk we will have to wait and see what happens.

its not worth arguing. just ask for a challenge on video and set up parameters what would invariable prove one or another right/wrong…….if you do this he will back out and u win the argument. sit there and chain cast AOES see who can last longer doing it (obv necro with what you said+utilities) ..this will be your control experiment. then challenge part 2 = stand at 800-850 range and each person gets to chain cast (taking turns) their aoes at the other person any way they can…. no invis no swarmings no minions etc….just see which is easier to get off. considering Cluster is 3-5 seconds….and marks are ground targeting and other aoes of necro are insta dmg in area (after cast time)…….. :P obv.

only 2 traits helps how fast you go tho….50% while invis and 20% reduced signet for infiltrators….well i guess 2 intiative per 10 seconds helps but thats 1 extra heartseeker per 20 seconds. idk i think its close tho we will have to see. maybe we can get some trial runs in before it starts. does race matter? dont norns have some skill that makes em a bird or something? or idk

thief and warrior are VERY close in mobility….the small difference is cooldown tho. warrior has quicker “re-access” in my opinion than thief. thats my experience tho trying to catch up with a warrior that was a pro scouter. 3 of the shadowstep skills need targets too. (steal) (infiltrators strike) (infiltrators signet) and for steal it has to be in range….and strike doesnt always go full distance on a far target idk y…. i mean i love my thief im just saying i give a slight edge to warrior.

adding in conditions im sure thief would win….warrior sprint / leap skills LOVE to target things. infiltrators arrow is a waste of intiative no matter how u look at it. just to keep it simple in explanation…..its a slow skill…unless ur standing still u dont get 900 range. u get around 600 and for only half of your initiative :/ . HS is better even with cripple. but hs is good only when used 2+ times….if you use one there is like a 1 sec animation thing that makes u stand still .

rawr .