Guild Wars 2

Raine.1394:

What facts have you laid out that I’ve failed to debunk, exactly. You said that raiding at the highest level in WoW took no strategy. How exactly would one deal with this other than to suggest that your experience may not have been normative? What would solve this for you is to watch examples of people playing that actually knew how to play. That would disabuse you entirely from any idea that GW2 combat took more skill or was more complex than WoW’s. It isn’t and all you need to do is observe the combat to know this.

“That actually knew how to play”. This may come as a surprise, but I “actually knew how to play”. As I said, it was all the same thing, raid after raid. Top guilds get the script from Blizzard, perfect the fights, create videos on how to do the fights (follow the script) then everyone watches the videos to learn the script. It’s not strategy, it’s copy-catting, and that is one of the greatest poxes on MMO boss fights out there. Fighting by script due to the limitations of the trinity based system forcing requirements of n healers, n tanks and n dps producing an average of n damage over time to beat the enrage timers (when applicable).

Go into a fight without anyone in the guild watching the videos before hand. Go ahead, give it a go. Disable the add ons that tell you what’s about to happen and instead learn from scratch. Actually develop a strategy from scratch based on observation and experience. I think it’s been years and years since anyone in WoW actually did that.

Raine.1394:

VOLKON.1290:

Raine.1394:

You’ve either never raided in WoW or you’ve raided and done it poorly. That’s why I suggested that you watch someone masterful at it. You are not that person, so please don’t go by your personal experience. Watch the videos of Method and then watch videos of, say, DnT. Everything you need to know about the relative complexity of the mechanics will be evident in players playing at the top of their respective game. GW2 combat is mind-numbingly simple compared to WoW.

Oh please. Don’t give me that. I’ve raided for years, as I’ve said, both as tank (pally) and dps (hunter). Every new raid was the exact same thing… the top guilds would “beta” the raid, being given the script of the fight from Blizzard then the time to perfect the script, record the fight and put out “how to” videos for everyone else to learn the script. Then when released, every raid started with the same thing – ‘Go watch the video and learn how to do the fight’. There’s no art or sophistication in being told by an add on when to go where or what the boss is about to do so you can be ready for it. All the top guilds do is follow the script really well and have the gear to pull off the fight, nothing more. There’s no chaos, no unexpected occurrences, just dancing to a script.

Right. And stack and wail is the epitome of satisfying combat for some I suppose. Again, please don’t go by your experience. Seek out examples of those who know how to play their respective games and compare.

I get a kick out of your defense that since I don’t agree with you somehow my raid play was sub-par. Adorable. My years of past experience are what I have to go by, and your failure to debunk the facts I’ve laid out speaks volumes.

You know what? Stack and wail isn’t ideal in my opinion either. That’s not the fault of the combat, though, it’s the fault of two things in my opinion… first bosses needing more complicated mechanics that reduce the optimal effects many currently have when you do stack and wail and second people’s inherent nature to hunt down and find the easiest and fastest path to completion. Stack and wail isn’t required nor is it necessary in GW2, just for many it’s fastest. Fortunately the newer fights are showing that ANet is creating more complicated fights where your basic stack and wail simply won’t be ‘optimal’ anymore, such as with the Marionette.

Raine.1394:

You’ve either never raided in WoW or you’ve raided and done it poorly. That’s why I suggested that you watch someone masterful at it. You are not that person, so please don’t go by your personal experience. Watch the videos of Method and then watch videos of, say, DnT. Everything you need to know about the relative complexity of the mechanics will be evident in players playing at the top of their respective game. GW2 combat is mind-numbingly simple compared to WoW.

Oh please. Don’t give me that. I’ve raided for years, as I’ve said, both as tank (pally) and dps (hunter). Every new raid was the exact same thing… the top guilds would “beta” the raid, being given the script of the fight from Blizzard then the time to perfect the script, record the fight and put out “how to” videos for everyone else to learn the script. Then when released, every raid started with the same thing – ‘Go watch the video and learn how to do the fight’. There’s no art or sophistication in being told by an add on when to go where or what the boss is about to do so you can be ready for it. All the top guilds do is follow the script really well and have the gear to pull off the fight, nothing more. There’s no chaos, no unexpected occurrences, just dancing to a script.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

The problem in GW2 is that the bosses are as dumb as the trash.
They only have very basic mechanics which feel way more scripted than in other games.

Boss has no taunt or aggro mechanic which makes him act random.
Boss has no targeting priorities, which makes the fights chaotic.
Boss has spells you have to dodge whatever role you play.

Learn the script of the boss skills, dodge, profit.

That’s the core. Honestly. For me, that is shallow as kitten…

In one post you call the fights both chaotic and scripted.

Contradictions are fun.

Yamiga.7863:

VOLKON.1290:

Nausicaa.9563:

I support Awe’s proposition. A total cap of 20-25k daily points would not be reached by anyone but the most dedicated completionists (who do the permanent stuff as well), it wouldn’t punish anyone’s playstyle and it would improve the achievement point system, making the leaderboard more competitive (except for the living story achievement problem) + making playing the game like completionists do more relaxed.

If anet is worried that these completionists would stop logging in daily after reaching this cap, I feel there still is enough incentive to get your chest every day, aka laurels.

Why exactly do you wish to punish the most dedicated completionists again by capping their access to APs? Why is their style of play so ‘not good enough’ that you feel the need to put a cap on it?

You don’t understand that completionists are the ones actually requesting that kind of change, because it will improve our playstyle.

Every completionist is asking for this, or only the few that see this as a means to try and cement their positions on the leader board by denying others access to APs?

Kaiyanwan.8521:

VOLKON.1290:

Your sig seems to indicate you play a mesmer, and you can’t see the complexity in the system? That’s a little worrisome. Are you aware of what skills you have and not only what they do but when is a better time to use them? The various ways you can use focus 4 for a variety of effects? The value of chaos storm in damage, control and support simultaneously? Do you spam great sword 3 off cool down or are there more opportunistic times to use it? Any of that stuff? How about the variability with casting feedback (with or without a target), or how traits can enhance null field and feed back to have even greater effects, which can completely alter how/when you’d cast them?

No depth?

Because it doesn’t change the fact, that PvE is (and will be even after the zerker gear nerf) all about max damage melee might stacking.
And PvP is all about the meta.

There is only one role in PvE, DD. Support and Control? That’s just gimmicky stuff that most classes in games with a trinity have too.
There is the meta in PvP, you are in the meta, or you are out.

This game has no role variety, not even if you try hard to make one up…

Nice sidestep to avoid answering the question. Spend a little time in WvW where you have to go against intelligent opponents and you’ll realize how painfully wrong you are. Support and control are far from gimmicky when you can prevent a whole blast of damage from ever hitting your allies due to a well timed null field that blinds and cripples them right before they strike for example because you were aware enough to drop it at the right time and place based on what you see happening in the fight.

I guess you can say there’s no ‘role variety’ as you put it, but the problem is you’re still trying to think in the ‘one character one role’ mindset. As long as you do that you’ll never fully be able to see the depth that’s in the system.

Raine.1394:

I can give you a method for evaluating your claim. One of the things I like to do in any game I play is watch and study the videos (and other materials) of the top guilds and players. Pick any top raiding guild like Method in WoW and watch a few videos. Then for comparison pick a top guild in GW2 that’s doing videos and watch a few.

On the trinity side you’ll notice that the richness of the encounter does not grow out of presence or absence of the trinity—that would be the encounter design and fight mechanics, and they are rich and call for both strategy and flawless execution. If you are lucky enough to find one with commentary it will sound something like Norman Schwarzkopf describing the initiation of the gulf war.

What will you find on the GW2 side? Well, I noticed that a theme emerged early. In the videos you will learn where to stack so that you can hit the boss, but they can’t hit you. (I had to laugh when one guy described this as LoS. Well, yes, I suppose.) Then after the boss is burned down by the berserkers-only group just wailing on him, you next learn strategies to avoid aggro in getting to the next boss.

In other words I’m suggesting you get some actual experience of the two systems. If you would honestly do this you wouldn’t hold the position you currently do.

There’s no strategy in a WoW style raid. There’s a script. You follow the script, you win. You don’t, you wipe. It’s really that simple. You’re given an assignment and that’s all you do. No thinking on the fly, no contingencies, just follow the script to win. The challenge isn’t built around the players skills, it’s built around the players gear and their ability to follow a script, period.

The non-trinity style, however, where every profession is viable allows you to take any mix of characters, so each fight has it’s own nuances and differences. You’re only thinking of the ‘4 warriors and a mesmer’ scenario, but the reality is that any group of characters can successfully do the fights and with each mix there’s variability you can’t find in a scripted trinity fight.

Nausicaa.9563:

I support Awe’s proposition. A total cap of 20-25k daily points would not be reached by anyone but the most dedicated completionists (who do the permanent stuff as well), it wouldn’t punish anyone’s playstyle and it would improve the achievement point system, making the leaderboard more competitive (except for the living story achievement problem) + making playing the game like completionists do more relaxed.

If anet is worried that these completionists would stop logging in daily after reaching this cap, I feel there still is enough incentive to get your chest every day, aka laurels.

Why exactly do you wish to punish the most dedicated completionists again by capping their access to APs? Why is their style of play so ‘not good enough’ that you feel the need to put a cap on it?

I like them. Will probably buy one soon and give my bone pick to an alt. Although if we could dual wield mining picks that would be nice…

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Rin.1046:

KarlaGrey.5903:

Rin.1046:

GW2 has a new and improved trinity: Damage, Control, Support. A far superior, more flexible and more complex system. A system that requires a lot more team coordination to really shine.

orly

Yes, really. […]

How anyone can see complexity in this system is beyond me, sorry.
I see more depth in my 2D TV if I wear 3D classes, than I see in the role system of GW2…

Your sig seems to indicate you play a mesmer, and you can’t see the complexity in the system? That’s a little worrisome. Are you aware of what skills you have and not only what they do but when is a better time to use them? The various ways you can use focus 4 for a variety of effects? The value of chaos storm in damage, control and support simultaneously? Do you spam great sword 3 off cool down or are there more opportunistic times to use it? Any of that stuff? How about the variability with casting feedback (with or without a target), or how traits can enhance null field and feed back to have even greater effects, which can completely alter how/when you’d cast them?

No depth?

Umut.5471:

I have molten alliance pick, what’s the reason of all these messages ? Is the new pick a lot better than molten alliance pick ? What’s the difference ?

The only difference is that the new pick gives you a percent change to mine a sprocket in addition to your haul. I’ve seen 20% tossed around, so basically you’d average one sprocket every two nodes or so.

This is not pay to win, not even remotely close to it. The only people arguing it is are the ones that had to change the definition of pay to win, creating a straw man argument which they then can attack. Pay to win shops allow you to purchase an advantage against other players in a PvP environment that they cannot get otherwise, that’s the original and real definition. Redefining the phrase and then arguing against your redefinition is dishonest at best. I’ve played a few games that had actual pay to win. If anyone thinks this is pay to win, they need to get out more.

Mireles Lore.5942:

The time is Neigh, The End is NEAR!

Why do I have the visual of someone standing directly behind a horse?

A simple slider is dull, boring, static and stagnant. It adds nothing to the game as a whole. Few people would use it and only in certain situations. You can’t build off of that to improve or add content to the game as a whole. I still say the real key is to have nights actually be darker (not cripplingly so, of course), and I’ll reiterate – tie the darkness to the phases of the moon. A full moon could be as dark (or slightly darker) than it is now, while a new moon would be notably darker. During the darkest time periods you can add new mobs that spawn, new loot that only drops on the darkest of the nights, new events that spawn in the dark, things of that nature. New champions that rampage beneath the moonless night sky. Bio-luminescent creatures that drop a new crafting material that can add a special glow to new armor types.

So, with adding natural, variable darkness and lunar phases you can add new mobs, new drops, new events, new crafting items, etc.

Or you can have a slider.

As the wise old Asura Spokk once said… “The needs of the many out-weigh the tears of the few.”

Majic.4801:

VOLKON.1290:

Fungalfoot.7213:

It won’t change. Tequatl has been dead for months on just about every single server and nothing has changed there. They’re too stubborn to admit when they’ve kittened up.

Tequatl dead? Wow, JQ usually overflows that place, sometimes a couple overflows deep.

Therefore, the same must be true of all servers.

/logic

“Dead for months on just about every single server” is certainly quite the exaggeration.

Nike.2631:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

The suggestions forum was axed so that developers could get the relevant information in their own sub forums, not because players and non anet forumers couldn’t wade through it.

The problem is symmetrical – Devs couldn’t be reasonably expected to look in two forums for matters of importance to them. Player’s shouldn’t be forced to look in two forums to find the most important threads about WvW for example. A WvW CDI belongs in the WvW board where WvW players will find it without checking an arcane schedule over when WvW is active in the CDI boards.

That isn’t difficult to handle. You put a sticky in the WvW section informing us over there that there’s a WvW based CDI in the CDI section and include the link. As passionate as WvW players are, they’ll be over in a heartbeat.

The idea of a CDI section to the forums would work best, I think, if the creation of threads is restricted to ANet people such as Chris. It becomes quite easy to keep the section neat that way, and when a CDI topic is closed all relevant sub-threads can be migrated with it to a historical section for the CDI topics. If the players see an idea come up that they’d like to see have it’s own thread they can simply ask.

Fungalfoot.7213:

It won’t change. Tequatl has been dead for months on just about every single server and nothing has changed there. They’re too stubborn to admit when they’ve kittened up.

Tequatl dead? Wow, JQ usually overflows that place, sometimes a couple overflows deep.

Shakkara.2641:

VOLKON.1290:

Still not seeing you getting screwed over here. You chose to buy the molten pick and used it for how many months now?

Not long enough for it to pay back for itself, not in gold and not in convenience.

VOLKON.1290:

Well here’s the question, before the watchwork pick, did you have any plans or intentions at all of buying another pick?

No. NEVER EVER EVER. 12 euros was already on the expensive side and close to rip-off territory.

VOLKON.1290:

If no, then ANet did a good job of getting you to change your mind and go for the newer model.

They made the first item, which I paid A LOT of real money for worthless. So I demand a compensation for that.

Tools are account bound, so can already use them on an alt. I NEVER want to use the molten pickaxe on an alt anymore, as using that makes me miss out on sprockets!

USELESS MOLTEN PICKAXE.

You kidding me? When I get around to buying a watchwork one (I intend to do so) I’ll be happy to put my current one on an alt, it saves the bother of having to switch it around (which I don’t bother with now to be honest).

Buy the way, you’re really not intended to any time soon make up the cost in gathered materials or coins saved buying disposable tools. You’re paying for the convenience first and foremost of never having to hit a vendor when you run out of the tools. In the convenience regards alone anyone that mines a lot is getting their value for the cash investment. So go ahead and use the molten on your most commonly played alt (if that’s not your primary “mining” character). You won’t have to swap around the new pick if you don’t want to bother and you’ll never have to hit a vendor for that character for mining picks. If most of your mining is done on your main anyhow the handful of coppers you may or may not miss out on on the alt really aren’t worth the bother or the waste of emotions.

Nike.2631:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Tbh the CDI really ought to have its own sub forum.

The suggestions forum was closed because it was moving topics away from the people who needed to see them. We still get “What does CDI even mean?” questions every week. Putting CDIs in a forum where only the well-informed can find them is hiding them from the players they touch on most.

Not a lot of people wandered about the suggestions forums. However the CDIs generate a ton of interest. A post in General informing people of new topics in the CDI section would go a long ways towards keeping that flowing.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Regarding:

1)I like this a lot- we can start with a broad topic like Horizontal Development was and as soon as it becomes more focused split it into separate CDI threads.

Would the expectation be that the split topics are parked and then tackled in order or that they are running together. Because if it is the latter then I can say without question that I personally wouldn’t have time to engage appropriately on more than one thread at a time.

Chris

If the CDIs had their own dedicated forum section and the threads could only be created by yourself and other ANet employees there wouldn’t be an issue with this I think, would there? Spawn out sub-threads based on what comes up in the CDI (if worthy) and you’d have time at your leisure to go over them, plus with control over thread creation you could easily keep the section from becoming a jumbled mess.

The last couple CDIs, to me, felt like they drug on past their intended shelf lives. While there was a ton of good stuff in them in the early pages towards the deeper pages they seemed to shift into just a general, drifting rambling. Perhaps there needs to come sooner the time when it’s noticed that an individual thread is becoming crushed by it’s own weight, at which a handful of ideas and concepts from that thread can be taken out and given distinct threads of their very own.

For example in the horizontal thread there was the idea of ascended gear being given the ability to modify the stats on it due to the cost of a single set. That idea itself could have spawned out into a unique thread that maybe wouldn’t have lasted more than a handful of pages but would have been focused and less… wandering.

In a nutshell, possibly spawn sub-threads for specific ideas that can generate a lot of discussion so as to prevent the main thread from getting bogged down.

An idea could be to modify the forum structure such that there’s a Guild Wars 2 > Forums > Game Discussion > CDI > section itself which would allow for main threads, sub threads etc in a neat, organized place and you’d reduce the possible clutter in General Discussion if sub-threads actually were implemented.

Awe.1096:

VOLKON.1290:

The thing with the leader board is this… I’m not competing with anyone at all for position on the leader board. I neither know nor care what my position is. If someone passes me or I pass someone it’s as noticed as a mouse fart in a hurricane. I just have little personal goals regarding APs that affect me and no one else… getting that next chest. (Almost at 10K! Woo!) Most of my APs come from dailies, which I’m completing (the chest part) every day simply through normal play. The audacity of some people thinking it’s a good idea to restrict my potential access to APs because of some competition they’re not having with me is ludicrous at best. If you’re worried about holding some position in a leader board for some competition that exists in your mind alone then go do what you have to do in game to stay there if that’s how you choose to play. However your style of play, your choices, are not worthy of being imposed on those of us that neither realize you exist nor care.

This is why the very large global cap on dailies was the preferred proposition becouse it would not restrict you in any way until very far ahead in the future at which point there are not even chest rewards present. After introducing a large cap, nothing would be imposed on you. Nothing would change in what you do and gain every day. Hell, they could even add more dailies at that point to help you reach your chests faster. In my perfect world dailies would not even exist. But I dont dare to make such proposition becouse I can see how it could restrict playstyle of several players. The only thing for which I have the “audacity” is to seek ways to make AP meta-game enjoyable for achievement hunters while not taking away things from people focused on other goals. If you have better ideas for a compromise, I am ready to hear them out. But if all you can do is ridiculing other people preferences, I can’t even respond to it with anything that would not make my forum account suspended.

Compromise? There is no compromise needed. It doesn’t matter what the degree with which you’re willing to restrict other people’s access now or in the future for your own personal gain for whatever reasons, it’s bad policy. There’s no need to compromise from “bad” to “a little less bad” at all when the system is working quite fine as is for the vast majority of players.

The thing with the leader board is this… I’m not competing with anyone at all for position on the leader board. I neither know nor care what my position is. If someone passes me or I pass someone it’s as noticed as a mouse fart in a hurricane. I just have little personal goals regarding APs that affect me and no one else… getting that next chest. (Almost at 10K! Woo!) Most of my APs come from dailies, which I’m completing (the chest part) every day simply through normal play. The audacity of some people thinking it’s a good idea to restrict my potential access to APs because of some competition they’re not having with me is ludicrous at best. If you’re worried about holding some position in a leader board for some competition that exists in your mind alone then go do what you have to do in game to stay there if that’s how you choose to play. However your style of play, your choices, are not worthy of being imposed on those of us that neither realize you exist nor care.

pswendel.8179:

VOLKON.1290:

pswendel.8179:

Name in use already.7294:

I stared reading this post outraged. And then I stopped be outraged and started being smart. The amount of Watchwork Sprockets you will get from this pick will be tiny compared with just buying gems to gold and then TP. There is nothing wrong with this pick at all. It’s a cosmetic skin, with COSMETIC loot. No one will buy this skin and make money from it. They will buy the skin for the looks, and the way its passive fits its theme.

tl;dr. the pick will LOSE you money, making it pay to LOSE.

Perhaps you should have continued to read, as you missed the point entirely.

The issue is the precedent. What is to say a new pick doesn’t come out in a month which gives a 40% chance at sprockets? Then in a year every hit.

The issue is TRUST and customer satisfaction. Right now I have no reason to believe any purchase I make will not get trumped and therefor have no reason to buy from the shop.

Yes, technological progress sucks. We should stop getting new things because they might be better than old things and that will make old people mad that their old things aren’t new things with new things added to them.

You would have a point if technology limited these items. Instead it’s artificial limitation, or lack of foresight on a net’s marketing team. These are not washing machines.

Do you really think they designed these picks back in 2012 with the intent on releasing them in Jan 2014 or something? Someone, somewhere, is sitting around thinking to himself “How can we make these a little better or a little more tempting for people to buy?” That’s a good thing, for that’s what will result in new and interesting things in the future as well. As long as they continue to avoid the dreaded “pay to win” like they are then I have no problem with this.

pswendel.8179:

Name in use already.7294:

I stared reading this post outraged. And then I stopped be outraged and started being smart. The amount of Watchwork Sprockets you will get from this pick will be tiny compared with just buying gems to gold and then TP. There is nothing wrong with this pick at all. It’s a cosmetic skin, with COSMETIC loot. No one will buy this skin and make money from it. They will buy the skin for the looks, and the way its passive fits its theme.

tl;dr. the pick will LOSE you money, making it pay to LOSE.

Perhaps you should have continued to read, as you missed the point entirely.

The issue is the precedent. What is to say a new pick doesn’t come out in a month which gives a 40% chance at sprockets? Then in a year every hit.

The issue is TRUST and customer satisfaction. Right now I have no reason to believe any purchase I make will not get trumped and therefor have no reason to buy from the shop.

Yes, technological progress sucks. We should stop getting new things because they might be better than old things and that will make old people mad that their old things aren’t new things with new things added to them.

Asmodeus.5782:

The term for those who already spent a ton of cash for multiple sets of gathering tools is ‘getting screwed over’.

Odd… I bought a full set for my mesmer main and the question I have now is whether or not I want one of these picks (I can give the one I have to an alt), not whether or not I was ‘screwed over’ for buying the pick I have months ago. I really don’t feel screwed over in the slightest, as a matter of fact I’m probably one of the target audience they’re shooting for, someone who bought the infinite items in the past that needed a little extra incentive to do so again. Was I going to buy more infinite gathering tools? Probably not. Will I now? A definite maybe. I just might, these little proc add-ons are interesting.

When I can take one of the new picks and one-shot Tequatl or solo-cap Stonemist then I’ll complain about pay to win.

I still think we should be able to dual wield mining picks.

Iason Evan.3806:

laokoko.7403:

Ayrilana.1396:

I wouldn’t necessarily call it pay to win since the sprockets do not provide you any advantage over other players.

Exactly. Which is exactly like buying gold. That don’t provide any advantage over other players.

I don’t get why people are suddenly bothered by things already happening.

The only thing the sprocket mining pick do is making people more gold. Which is already what you can do now with gem conversion.

The sprockets aren’t what most of us (or me) are talking about. It’s the precedent that it sets. There is no other way to get these without the pick at certain times. It makes it so that if you use a gem shop item you can get something that others can not acquire at certain times. That is setting a precedent for other items to do this with that may be more important and it’s also doing it with something seemingly innocuous. Next time it will be something more important and then it happens again and again until it’s the new normal.

That’s not true. I get sprockets daily in my home instance without one of these picks.

apocalyps.7106:

gem shop tools have no level requirement volkon, so it’s plausible
i hope they wont nerf them, as i think this aspect might have been overlooked :P
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mining_pick

I know, I’m talking about the people that don’t buy picks from the gem shop though. They do exist after all and you need to take that into account. If I haven’t bought any and I’m using the level 80 picks on my main what would happen with the low level alts?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

VOLKON.1290:

TPMN.1483:

I expect sprockets will stop dropping soon – so this discussion will become even more valid.
The invasions of Scarlett’s minions are likely to stop.
The LP boss will stop (in a few weeks)

So this then becomes who has the pick can get this stuff quickly/easily (in large quantities) those which don’t will be really messed up if they only have a home node instance.

The Scarlett minion invasions are set to be permanent content. When the Gauntlet returns that will reintroduce a huge sprocket farm once again, same as when the Zephyr Sanctum returns and quartz mining is once again abundant.

Note: They have said the invasions will stop with the Scarlet arc.

Did they? I missed that. I suppose it makes sense logically. Too bad, once in awhile I’ll go do one just for fun.

TPMN.1483:

I expect sprockets will stop dropping soon – so this discussion will become even more valid.
The invasions of Scarlett’s minions are likely to stop.
The LP boss will stop (in a few weeks)

So this then becomes who has the pick can get this stuff quickly/easily (in large quantities) those which don’t will be really messed up if they only have a home node instance.

The Scarlett minion invasions are set to be permanent content. When the Gauntlet returns that will reintroduce a huge sprocket farm once again, same as when the Zephyr Sanctum returns and quartz mining is once again abundant.

With the introduction of the new mining pick that gives a chance to pop a sprocket from an ore node a couple thoughts ran through my cranium… first, odds are we could see more tools like this (a chance to pop a quartz crystal for example) and second, dual wielding these mining tools would look awesome. So here’s the idea, dual wielding mining picks. If you equip an “off hand” mining pick you’d have a new animation showing you mining with alternating strokes, main hand first, and you could mine at a 50% or so faster rate than when only one tool is equipped. In addition, the proc chance (if available) for your picks would be dependent on the stroke – main hand, off hand, main hand for your normal three stroke node. Your main hand would get used, on average, 2/3 of the time while your off hand would be used 1/3 of the time. This has an interesting effect for those about to scream “Pay to win!” (without having a clue as to what pay to win actually means)… it dramatically slows down the return on investment for each individual pick while allowing you to progress the ROI on both.

Please, save the arguments about whether or not picks with procs should exist for the other thread already discussing that. This is assuming they exist, assuming more will, and therefore expanding on that the idea of dual wielding mining picks (although it still works conceptually without picks with procs).

While I agree that the idea of them being usable for the entire account without having to swap them does sound intriguing, there’s one issue that’s being overlooked… alts at lower levels than can use the gathering equipment. If I roll a fresh, shiny alt and my “account tools” require level 80, then what? You have to remember, not everyone has bought the infinite tools so there will definitely be level restrictions coming into play.

Raine.1394:

Bearhugger.4326:

VOLKON.1290:

The simplest way to think of it is this… if GW2 had the trinity then fights like the Marionette wouldn’t exist. Trinity combat all breaks down to the same script – tank taunts, healer focuses on the tank, every now and then throw a twist at the dps so they don’t fall asleep. Without the trinity we can have fights like this where we divide into five groups which further get divided into five groups which all have to work together successfully in order to favorably progress the fight. There’s a randomness that defies a set script so you need to be on your toes and pay attention.

That couldn’t be farther from the truth.

In fact I think that the devs of GW2 are quite limited in the amount of mechanics that they can introduce to fights because of all the chaos that their PvE group combat engenders. You can’t really reproduce the unique encounter mechanics that games like WoW or FFXIV have and that makes every boss feel unique and different if the fights are random and uncontrollable.

I play a tank in another MMO and I’m doing far more than just sitting in front of a boss and trading blows like an idiot, and I hate to say this but the fights have WAY more interesting mechanics than most of GW2’s PvE encounters. If a MMO has tanks sit in front of bosses and healers spam heals in the back all the time, it’s a problem with that MMO’s developers or game engine, not with the trinity. The trinity can do every fight a DPS-only design can do, and it usually does it better too because it allows people with more defensive-oriented playstyles to play their way and feel useful.

GW2 desperately needs a new PvE model. It doesn’t have to be the trinity (and it probably wouldn’t be) but things need to change. DPS/Control/Support anyone?

We seriously need a CDI on dungeons, fractals and instanced PvE…

Agreed. I actually don’t believe he has played a trinity game. His post is an extended non-sequitur.

The years I spend in WoW raiding as both tank and dps would tend to disagree with you a bit. Seriously, how would a fight like the Marionette fight work in a trinity based system? You’d have to change it dramatically. You’d be forced to somehow make sure a tank and healer were available for and put on every platform, or you’d have to get rid of the platforms and have the entire lane fight a single boss. You could not have a fight like the Marionette. Since you’ve been kind enough to accuse me of drifting into the warm and fuzzy realm of non-sequitur why don’t you extend that kindness and tell us all how you could design the Marionette fight, as much as it is as possible, with a trinity based combat system. Please, enlighten us.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

VOLKON.1290:

After seeing so many posts from people that have no idea what pay to win actually means and/or have no idea what good business sense is (many people that will spend gems have bought infinite mining picks already, how can we tempt them to buy more?) have helped me realize there’s only one possible solution to this faux dilemma.

I need to buy two of these picks and dual wield them.

Oh… and sprockets should be added to WvW loot bags as a possible drop item.

Seriously predicting the Queen’s Pavilion opens again and sprockets become common as dirt all over again

What do you think about the dual wielding idea? You could even (potentially) mine at double the rate and have a new animation to go with it. Imagine if there was a new future pick with a percent chance to mine, say, a quartz chunk and you dual wielded that with this new pick… could be interesting for the hard core farming types.

After seeing so many posts from people that have no idea what pay to win actually means and/or have no idea what good business sense is (many people that will spend gems have bought infinite mining picks already, how can we tempt them to buy more?) have helped me realize there’s only one possible solution to this faux dilemma.

I need to buy two of these picks and dual wield them.

Oh… and sprockets should be added to WvW loot bags as a possible drop item.

Aeonblade.8709:

Ayrilana.1396:

Aeonblade.8709:

Ayrilana.1396:

Some people either need to look up the definition for what pay to win is since this clearly is not. People are either misinformed or just trolling and using this as another opportunity to attack the game and/or Anet.

There is no concrete definition of P2W. It varies from person to person. This has been discussed to death on this forum, and P2W for one person is not P2W to another. Being hostile and accusing people of trolling for stating their opinion just makes you look silly and reinforces other’s points.

There is a clear definition. It’s any item that can be purchased with real money that is not available to players elsewhere that provides a distinct advantage over other players.

There is no definition for what every single person considers P2W because winning is different based off of each person. Please read the rest of the thread before posting in the future to save us all some time. Thanks!

This goes back to what I said before about people creating a straw man argument by redefining ‘pay to win’ to mean something completely different than the original definition. You’re not allowed to change the definition of “win” in order to win your argument.

Aeonblade.8709:

VOLKON.1290:

Aeonblade.8709:

And that once again, is your opinion on an absolute definition. Just because you do not see how someone could view something differently does not mean it cannot be viewed differently. There is no actual definition of P2W because an actual definition of P2W assumes everyone considers winning to be the exact same thing.

You misunderstand. I see how people can view things differently. I can also see how those different views can be used out of the valid context, such as in this case here with the P2W argument.

You need to wipe out the original definition of what pay to win actually is in order for your argument to be able to gain any traction here. That’s pretty much the classic definition of a straw man argument.

I’m going to let this one go. The conversation has degenerated to the point of the overused straw man argument when no logical counter point could be reached to my own, which is not applicable here, and we have moved into the realm of off topic for this thread. I agree to disagree, as have several other people in this thread. One day you may realize the world is not all black and white, but shades of gray.

There is no valid counter point when there’s no valid point in the first place. You’re choosing to change the definition of “win”, and by default the definition of “pay to win” in order to give your argument the appearance of being valid. I agree the straw man argument is overused, however I’m not the one using it.

You are entitled to your own set of opinions, I’ll admit that readily. However you are not entitled to your own facts.

Aeonblade.8709:

And that once again, is your opinion on an absolute definition. Just because you do not see how someone could view something differently does not mean it cannot be viewed differently. There is no actual definition of P2W because an actual definition of P2W assumes everyone considers winning to be the exact same thing.

You misunderstand. I see how people can view things differently. I can also see how those different views can be used out of the valid context, such as in this case here with the P2W argument.

You need to wipe out the original definition of what pay to win actually is in order for your argument to be able to gain any traction here. That’s pretty much the classic definition of a straw man argument.

lordkrall.7241:

VOLKON.1290:

The item is available in every Scarlett invasion and in your home instance if you complete the meta for this Living Story.

For now.
And the thread isn’t really about the specific item obtained either, but rather about the fact that it does happen.

What about if they release an item that lets you get something that is very sparingly available, such as Azurite ore?

For now, true, there may be additional means available in the future. Regarding something like azurite, that’s a bridge we’ll burn if we ever get to it.

Aeonblade.8709:

VOLKON.1290:

Aeonblade.8709:

VOLKON.1290:

Aeonblade.8709:

Ayrilana.1396:

Some people either need to look up the definition for what pay to win is since this clearly is not. People are either misinformed or just trolling and using this as another opportunity to attack the game and/or Anet.

There is no concrete definition of P2W. It varies from person to person. This has been discussed to death on this forum, and P2W for one person is not P2W to another. Being hostile and accusing people of trolling for stating their opinion just makes you look silly and reinforces other’s points.

I disagree. There is the “official” description of “pay to win”, which directly involves paying cash for an advantage, usually in PvP, that cannot be obtained without making the cash purchase and there’s the watered-down version people tend to use to stir up emotions due to the stigma associated with the actual definition. I abhor pay to win. If ANet were to introduce actual pay to win items that gave people unobtainable advantages in WvW unless I pay myself, then they’ll flat out lose me and I’m one of the bigger fanboys out there.

This is not pay to win.

And that is your opinion, and I can respect that, even if we do not agree.

This isn’t opinion. This is based solely on fact, from past experience bumping into actual pay to win games. One little space PvP game, I forget the name, you could go so far in without paying but in order to compete you actually had to purchase special ammo and ships that were significantly better than anything you could earn in the game itself. It was, by the very definition of the word, pay to win. You don’t pay, you can’t win, period.

It’s a lot like the use of the word “theory”. There’s the scientific definition, such as used in the ‘Theory of Evolution’, and the layman definition which equates basically to a guess. A scientific theory is practically as good as it gets, yet you’ll sometimes hear people attack evolution as being ‘only a theory’. They’re using the wrong definition in the wrong context to stir an emotional reaction, just like people using ‘pay to win’ here are. It’s no different.

The entire problem with what you are saying is everyone’s definition of “winning” is different. I’m sorry that you can’t understand that winning in my eyes is different from what would be winning to you. Winning is not black and white, but a very gray area that differs from person to person.

Once again, everyone’s definition of P2W will be different, because different people base winning on different objectives for themselves. I can’t explain it in any other way, and I understand P2W has a mostly PvP connotation to you, but others find winning in unique skins, PvE bonuses, Shortcuts to legendaries using real money, etc.

Therein lies the rub. “Everyone’s definition is different” as you say. There’s one actual definition, like I stated. People are applying wrong (out of context) definitions where they don’t apply. Saying (for example) that ‘evolution is only a theory’ doesn’t make it true just because your definition differs from the scientific one.

“My definition is different” is not a valid excuse to use the term out of context.

Yargesh.4965:

Just adding my voice that I think it is a bad idea to include a drop of an extra item that is not widely available anywhere else. Not a good plan.

The item is available in every Scarlett invasion and in your home instance if you complete the meta for this Living Story.

Malediktus.9250:

VOLKON.1290:

Malediktus.9250:

At this point I would rather have a subscription based MMO than this stupid gem shop.

You’d rather have to pay a mandatory monthly fee to access a game you already paid for instead of a cash shop full of optional fluff that won’t cut off access to the game you paid for if you choose not to use it?

Yes. I want the whole game available without being nickle and dimed for every skin or miniature I like. As it is now I pay more per month in Gem Shop than I would pay for a subscription.

So, there are sub-based games out there without cash shops that have minis and skins you can’t get in the game? Hmm… maybe, but the trend is in the other direction.

Don’t buy something in the gem store for a couple months and tell me what happens. Miss a subscription payment in a different game and what happens?

You’re also ignoring the basic fact that you can convert gold to gems and hit the gem store that way. I recently got a couple stack expanders doing exactly that. Which reminds me… I need to get one more for the full thousand. I need to start stashing again for that…

Aeonblade.8709:

VOLKON.1290:

Aeonblade.8709:

Ayrilana.1396:

Some people either need to look up the definition for what pay to win is since this clearly is not. People are either misinformed or just trolling and using this as another opportunity to attack the game and/or Anet.

There is no concrete definition of P2W. It varies from person to person. This has been discussed to death on this forum, and P2W for one person is not P2W to another. Being hostile and accusing people of trolling for stating their opinion just makes you look silly and reinforces other’s points.

I disagree. There is the “official” description of “pay to win”, which directly involves paying cash for an advantage, usually in PvP, that cannot be obtained without making the cash purchase and there’s the watered-down version people tend to use to stir up emotions due to the stigma associated with the actual definition. I abhor pay to win. If ANet were to introduce actual pay to win items that gave people unobtainable advantages in WvW unless I pay myself, then they’ll flat out lose me and I’m one of the bigger fanboys out there.

This is not pay to win.

And that is your opinion, and I can respect that, even if we do not agree.

This isn’t opinion. This is based solely on fact, from past experience bumping into actual pay to win games. One little space PvP game, I forget the name, you could go so far in without paying but in order to compete you actually had to purchase special ammo and ships that were significantly better than anything you could earn in the game itself. It was, by the very definition of the word, pay to win. You don’t pay, you can’t win, period.

It’s a lot like the use of the word “theory”. There’s the scientific definition, such as used in the ‘Theory of Evolution’, and the layman definition which equates basically to a guess. A scientific theory is practically as good as it gets, yet you’ll sometimes hear people attack evolution as being ‘only a theory’. They’re using the wrong definition in the wrong context to stir an emotional reaction, just like people using ‘pay to win’ here are. It’s no different.

Malediktus.9250:

At this point I would rather have a subscription based MMO than this stupid gem shop.

You’d rather have to pay a mandatory monthly fee to access a game you already paid for instead of a cash shop full of optional fluff that won’t cut off access to the game you paid for if you choose not to use it?

Aeonblade.8709:

Ayrilana.1396:

Some people either need to look up the definition for what pay to win is since this clearly is not. People are either misinformed or just trolling and using this as another opportunity to attack the game and/or Anet.

There is no concrete definition of P2W. It varies from person to person. This has been discussed to death on this forum, and P2W for one person is not P2W to another. Being hostile and accusing people of trolling for stating their opinion just makes you look silly and reinforces other’s points.

I disagree. There is the “official” description of “pay to win”, which directly involves paying cash for an advantage, usually in PvP, that cannot be obtained without making the cash purchase and there’s the watered-down version people tend to use to stir up emotions due to the stigma associated with the actual definition. I abhor pay to win. If ANet were to introduce actual pay to win items that gave people unobtainable advantages in WvW unless I pay myself, then they’ll flat out lose me and I’m one of the bigger fanboys out there.

This is not pay to win.

Peetee.9406:

November 15th 2012 – The day the gear treadmill began.
January 28th 2014 – The day pay-to-win began.

Since we can now potentially get sprockets from ore nodes as of 1/28/2014, wouldn’t that be the day the gear treadmill began? :P

In this thread… many people that don’t know what “pay to win” means.

OK folks, for those of you that think this is somehow “pay to win”, imagine you’re holding one of these shiny, fresh new picks. You can still smell the factory oil as your body tingles with anticipation of your impending win.

OK, go win. I’m curious to see how you accomplish this… I can imagine people taking these picks into WvW, ripping open the wall of SM with them, one-shotting the keep lord inside and soloing SM! Maybe, maybe they go to fight the wurm, use the pick to dig down between the three heads to the body of the beast itself and with one majestic blow drive the pick into the very heart of our beloved wurm! Ah, perhaps they throw it at Zhaitan while in mid-flight, sending him plummeting to his… eh, what’s that? You got a sprocket? From an ore node. You… think you won?

Oh my.

lordkrall.7241:

Nope, and it seems like it was actually lvl 0.

You simply craft them from the menu.

Five blue ones become one green.
Two greens one yellow.
Two yellows one orange.

Huh… and I was saving the few orange I got just in case a recipe came out in the future for them. Thanks for the info!

Vol.7601:

DiogoSilva.7089:

Vol.7601:

Except that you can convert gold to gems.

And you can use that gold to buy the items from the TP.

We’re not thinking at the same level here:

Across mining picks, there are zero alternatives to get the 20% chance at item X. OF course you can convert your gold to gems but that’s not the argument here

And I fogot to mention – unlike the novelty of gem store skins, this pick is not novelty. It directly gives you something of value that other picks do not.

All the infinite picks give you something of value… never having to buy more picks from the vendor. That slowly but definitely adds up over time.