Guild Wars 2

Basaltface.2786:

Gnat.9405:

I will never understand why people think publicly announcing their departure deserves attention.

its feedback. If i would be a dev i would actually welcome this (heck i dunno about a-net but atleast I would)…cause i sorta can see what people like and dislike and can collect that info to have something to work with. Sure…1 guy leaving the game or complaining about a certain issue is like a water drop on a hot stone, but lets say (seriosly random number) 500 people “complain” about the same thing you will start to see a pattern that can\could be used as a guideline for the future. A well written and explained “im leaving” post is just as valuable like a suggestion in a CDI imo. Also you can easily skip these topics by just not looking at them :)

I’m almost 100% positive that people can actually leave feedback and say they like or don’t like something without also saying they’re leaving. Watch.

I’m leaving because I don’t like the loot system. I never feel like I’m getting anywhere.

I don’t like the loot system, I never feel like I’m getting anywhere.

Both of these lines give the exact same info. It doesn’t help that so many people say they’re leaving and never actually leave. We know this because devs told us this.

DeamonSamurai.6504:

To me it will depend on how much of this content will be available for use outside if maguuma. Will the gliders be usauable outside of the expansion pack boundries such as queensdale? Will my specialization be usuable in silverwastes? See what I’m saying?

The gliding will not be usable outside the new zone, but other masteries will. Your specialization should be usable anywhere in the game, certainly in PvE at any rate.

But the gliding would break older maps and can’t be used there. However that doesn’t mean it can’t be used in new maps going forward.

KarlaGrey.5903:

ITT: A lot of paranoia over a pretty harmless feature.
Harassment, you say? Hello automatic decline option.
I would duel from time to time on Lotro, and I was on pvp servers in tera…and truth be told, I cannot understand this anti-duel attittude for the life of me.
Wtf are ppl so afraid of.
Sense. There isn’t any~

Right the dozens of people that are against it have no sense because you disagree with it. But there is sense to it. It’s sense born of our personal experiences. You can’t make sense of it if you didn’t have those experiences.

But that doesn’t mean that we don’t have sense. There are too many people against it for all of us not to be making sense. Though I understand that you don’t get it, that doesn’t mean there isn’t something to get.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Vayne.8563:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Aenesthesia.1697:

Oh, so, by anet’s definition, having to kill a raid boss, for a 15% chance to get the sword I want = grind.

Being able to get that same sword after:

- spending hundreds of hours hoarding mats or gold to buy the mats needed to craft other mats needed to craft the sword (with time gating, because kitten)
- get that sword via killing any mob in game, with a drop chance of 0,00000001%

= no grind!!!

Give me back my grind, please.

ANet is taking the grind to a whole new level with their anti-grind philosophy.

It is like they make the grind feel so futile, that most players will just give up on getting what they want.

Genious!

I’m not sure why you think you’d know what most players like or don’t like.

I don’t think this “I don’t think you can proof anything you say, but whatever I say is correct because I say so” mentality helps any kind of discussion.

In fact I think it’s pretty childish and only causing topics to get derailed. If this is your goal, I think I have to remind you of the forum rules. It is against them. Sorry.

Well no. A person comes into conversation after conversation and consistently throws out negative, unconstructive and in most cases unprovable one-liners.

Pointing them out isn’t against the terms of service.

You made a direct, unprovably comment about grind in this game, but you’ve shown yourself, again and again in post, that you don’t like the game as it stands. It’s not a far stroll to believe that these one liners are born of disappointment in general.

But when you start saying what most players feel or do and don’t want, there’s no reason in the world why someone shouldn’t call you on it.

Why not talk about what you like, instead of trying to make it sound like you have some kind of majority?

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Aenesthesia.1697:

Oh, so, by anet’s definition, having to kill a raid boss, for a 15% chance to get the sword I want = grind.

Being able to get that same sword after:

- spending hundreds of hours hoarding mats or gold to buy the mats needed to craft other mats needed to craft the sword (with time gating, because kitten)
- get that sword via killing any mob in game, with a drop chance of 0,00000001%

= no grind!!!

Give me back my grind, please.

ANet is taking the grind to a whole new level with their anti-grind philosophy.

It is like they make the grind feel so futile, that most players will just give up on getting what they want.

Genious!

I’m not sure why you think you’d know what most players like or don’t like.

I know a lot of people who support dueling don’t understand. Guild Wars 2 has, for the most part, always drawn a strong, strong line between PvP and PvE. That’s in both Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2. There are many reasons for that wall.

The same time of people who want dueling are often the same type of people who love PvP. It’s competitive, not cooperative. The normal sledging that goes on in PvP (you don’t have to look far to see it) is not normal in PvE in this game and there are those of us who enjoy PvE don’t want that normal sledging around.

I’d be happy to see arenas in the open world that I can avoid if I want, that allow people to beat the hell out of each other. But anyone who says dedicated PvPers have the same manners and attitudes of dedicated PvEer’s, I’m not sure what to say to them.

PvPers in other games call PvE’ers carebears for a reason and it’s not usually said as a term of endearment. We’ve been told, by PvPers to go back to hello kitty online and other stuff. As an aside, raiders also treat us non-competitive carebears the same way.

So you might say man up and deal with it. Many of us are playing this specific game NOT to deal with it. We bought the game for that reason. We didn’t have to deal with it in Guild Wars 1, why should we have to here.

Again, dedicated areas/arenas, no worries. Anywhere in the open world. Just no.

The biggest difference to me is for runes and sigils. If I want a rune or sigil off an item I always use a black lion salvage kit, because there’s a 20% chance with a mystic salvage kit that you won’t get it.

For dark matter, I might get a bit more dark matter with a black lion salvage kit…it seems like it to me, but I don’t have enough of a data set to really make the claim.

Dueling has been suggested numerous times by numerous people. It has met stiff resistance from a portion of the population.

Those who want it can’t understand why anyone would be against it or how it would affect them. Those who don’t want it feel it will negatively affect their experience and they don’t want it.

I personally don’t want it and would prefer open world dueling never be added.

Kings.7491:

Okey, so most of you don’t agree with my expectations. But is it no one other than me that expected more? Did none of you have any expectations for the expansion? We haven’t got any information about the scale of the new areas or the story so we just have to wait and see about that. But come on something did you expect that wasn’t in the announcement, or?

Two answers to this.

First we don’t really know what each item of the expansion entails. We don’t know how deep it is, or how much you’ll get out of it. Furthermore, these things aren’t just for now, they’re setting up a future. Imagine a future where you can specialize in two things, three things, five things. That would add a ton of playabilty to already existing professions. That’s exciting to me.

More to the point, a lot of the things you’ve expected/asked for, go very much against what a lot of people want/expect.

This is probably the only MMO I know of where the core fan base threatens to stop playing if the level cap is raised. If another tier of gear is added. Those are features to me.

Knowing that the armor I have now will last me through all of HoT is a major, major selling point.

That with a new area (with multiple zones) and new masteries, which they can keep adding to, give me a lot of hope for the future of this game.

I’m also interested in seeing the broad changes they’re making to WvW. That alone can reinvigorate a whole bunch of players.

It hasn’t been warriors for a while. Not that warriors aren’t good but eles are more accepted now, thieves are more accepted, even rangers are more accepted. If your eye is on the meta, the only “bad” profession right now is necro. But since a necro can completely all the content, that’s mostly min/maxers and speed run groups who say it. We run content with necros all the time and do just fine.

End game is very different in this game than most, because it’s what you want to do personally. There’s no overriding this is what you want to do. For a lot of peoiple it’s about skin collecting or achievement point hunting. Some people try to solo dungeons. Some people find their end game in WvW or SPvP. Some people just enjoy leveling alts. Some people want to get full ascended gear for their characters or work on getting a legendary weapon.

It’s a theme park in the way Disney World is a theme park. You can ride space mountain, visit the Hall of Presidents, or just enjoy the atmosphere of the parks. But the game doesn’t really dictate to you what you do.

Edit: I didn’t mean to say that those professions are more accepted than warriors. They’re simply more accepted than they once were. Though eles never really had a problem, right now they’re very strong. Rangers have less of a problem getting into groups than they used to. Thieves are welcome on lots of runs for stealth. Sorry for any confusion.

A couple new zones, many new events, some new jumping puzzles, new PvP rewards, new WvW specializations, new wardrobe to customize appearances, dyes and commander tags are now account bound, not sure if you got the achievement point rewards are not. New dungeon path. New fractals. New Living Story (which you’d have to purchase with gems if you weren’t here), megaserver so you won’t be alone in zones, even at odd hours, new world boss (Triple Threat), which is the hardest fight in teh game, the Tequatl Redo, and a couple of new minigames.

That’s the short of it, I think.

The most support classes are ele and engineer (hard to play), guardian easy to play. Join a casual guild and people won’t care if you want to play support.

naiasonod.9265:

Vayne.8563:

So I played Rift and the entire game pushed you into raiding when I played. There was one single major story line and it ended in a raid. If you didn’t raid, you didn’t do the main quest of the game.

More than that, the rewards for open world content were capped and everyone had maxed their cap and there was nothing, absolutely nothing to buy from it. That meant if you continued to do open world content, you’d do it for no reward. I would be like maxed on planarite. No reward at all for me unless I raid.

You don’t have to raid. You can just stop playing.

Dimension building wound up being my endgame on there when I played. I had way more fun doing that than I ever did raiding, I gotta admit.

That was after I stopped playing. When I played, first five six months, there was nothing at end game but raiding period. Or collecting sparklies I guess, if you considered that end game.

So I played Rift and the entire game pushed you into raiding when I played. There was one single major story line and it ended in a raid. If you didn’t raid, you didn’t do the main quest of the game.

More than that, the rewards for open world content were capped and everyone had maxed their cap and there was nothing, absolutely nothing to buy from it. That meant if you continued to do open world content, you’d do it for no reward. I would be like maxed on planarite. No reward at all for me unless I raid.

You don’t have to raid. You can just stop playing.

Serophous.9085:

Vayne.8563:

Serophous.9085:

Devata.6589:

Serophous.9085:

Devata.6589:

Serophous.9085:

Devata.6589:

snip

Sorry, I didn’t know doing something multiple times =/= grinding.

But in other news, since I like doing the same events MULTIPLE times in silverwastes, fighting the bosses durIng the breach MULTIPLE times, and the vinewrath and maze MULTIPLE times for fun because I do like the zone and events, then it isn’t a grind. The crests are just a bonus for me along with the bags I earn. If I use those bags and crests to make gold, then its all the more bonus to me.

Grind is subjective it seems.

snip

Where do we talk about grind? Mostly in RPG’s because thats the place where people tent to get into a grind.. doing something they do not really like but purely for the reward.

Well then, this thread is moot really as people just need to not think of what they’re doing as a grind and just have fun. Then anet told the truth, gw2 isn’t a grindy game.

If a lot of rewards are only available in a way that many if not most people consider a boring grind that is a problem and your game is grindy (for those elements).

A problem that should be talked about and really should be solved. That is what this topic is about. We already established like on page 2 or so that grind it’s also a personal thing. But it’s good to see you catching up.

OK OK. MOST people. Gotcha. So then, MOST people who play the game must be posting in this topic ATM right? And not the same people over and over talking in circles?

Actually I agree with Devata. Most people consider the way to get stuff in this game a boring grind. The problem is I’ve yet to see any MMO where it’s been otherwise.

It goes back to content can’t be produced fast enough so grind has to be introduced. The trick is to make it so all the grind items are optional and people can make their own choices.

Because making things easier to get, ie allowing people to have them faster just means people getting bored faster.

The grind is boring, but having nothing to work for is even more boring…to a lot of people…maybe even most.

Yeah, but if you just do things multiple times and have fun while getting rewards, its not grind.

Okay this is true. But it’s not quite what we’re talking about. Take the new luminescent armor.

This armor requires you to do events in other parts of the world. Get four organs from different creatures of the breech events in Silverwastes, and finish all the achievements in the Living Story.

The problem is each time another part came out, you needed to get another type of organ from each of the four bosses.

More to the point, you can’t just go get them you have to wait for a breech event. You generally can’t join a map just before a breech event, so you have to go into that zone early to hold a place so you can be there for the event. Then you have to kill those bosses. So I’ve had to kill each of those bosses six times at a minimum and there are four of them. That’s 24 boss kills that are part of a lengthier process.

I love the Silverwastes. I think it’s one of the best zones in the game. But due to the set up, there are people who don’t further the events, but they wait until they can get into a map that’s done further. This is due strictly to how long it takes and how many of these parts you need. So they don’t do anything to help, get in at the last moment they can and get their part…leaving people like me to do the donkey work.

After weeks of this zone, I’m tired of it, and I still have one part left to get. It may not be grind in the strictest sense of the word, but I’ve got two achievements left and 1 organ left and I’m not having fun going back there. I’m burned out on the zone. I find myself going back more to Dry Top which I also enjoyed, not because I have to, but because I enjoy it. So I took a break from working on the luminscent to get more insects for ambrite weapons, which I love.

The thing is, if you’re not in a rush for stuff and you work on it gradually, then you’re pretty much not grinding. You go when you want to and you do what you want. But then you can fall behind and there’d be more and more stuff you’re working on which is overwhelming for me at least. I still needed one more halloween weapon (Mad Moon) and I only need one more TA run to get it. But I’m not all that enthused about running dungeons, so it sits until someone needs help.

There has to be a balance. I think Anet has gotten better at it, but they need to get better still.

Serophous.9085:

Devata.6589:

Serophous.9085:

Devata.6589:

Serophous.9085:

Devata.6589:

snip

By your definition playing a game, doing quest and leveling at the same time would also be grinding because he you do something and leveling is an element of it. But it only because grinding when you do what you do for the sole purpose of the currency you earn (XP in that case). That does not mean the reward might not be one of the reasons or like an additional motivator for doing something (multiple times).

Would I have done SAB if I would not have gotten those rewards? Yes and likely multiple times. Did the rewards help to do it more times (increase playability), likely they gave the content an extra thrill / an extra motivator, by having the rewards to look forward to.

Would many people be doing champ-trains if they did not reward them anything? No. Do they even really like doing it or is it something they just put up with the earn the gold? For most they just put up with it. You see the difference.

Is it possible some people where purely grinding baubles in SAB? Sure.

But heey if you would want to consider both grinding (what would make everything a grind as you always earn some currency while playing and rewards are almost always part of the motivator) sure then by that definition I would want them to replace the boring grind by the better grind. But I do really think this is then really by your definition.

Same btw for farming but then your doing it for a direct item. I did for example farm MF for the back-pack and mini. I did farm it because I was repeating the dungeon for the mini also at a point where I did not like doing it anymore but just to get them knowing the dungeons would be removed at some point (never got them btw). Now I don’t mind considering it farming even if you do not dislike it but do it for the sole purpose of the reward. But it does not already become farming (or grinding) when your motivator is also just because you like it.

Sorry, I didn’t know doing something multiple times =/= grinding.

But in other news, since I like doing the same events MULTIPLE times in silverwastes, fighting the bosses durIng the breach MULTIPLE times, and the vinewrath and maze MULTIPLE times for fun because I do like the zone and events, then it isn’t a grind. The crests are just a bonus for me along with the bags I earn. If I use those bags and crests to make gold, then its all the more bonus to me.

Grind is subjective it seems.

Sure if you have fun doing it and the rewards are just an additional motivator then thats not a grind.

And don’t act as if it’s something new I am saying. If everything you do multiple times is a grind then any MP FPS is a grind because you do it multiple times, while the rewards are there (killing) and the currency is also there (points). But why does nobody call that a grind? Simply because people are not doing it just to get a number, being the best (the number) is a side thing, an additional motivator, they simply love shooting each other. Thats why nobody calls it a grind.

But yeah you act as if it’s silly what I say so I guess you always talk about how people are grinding FPS’s for kills. Oow and I guess you are grinding forum post here?

Where do we talk about grind? Mostly in RPG’s because thats the place where people tent to get into a grind.. doing something they do not really like but purely for the reward.

Well then, this thread is moot really as people just need to not think of what they’re doing as a grind and just have fun. Then anet told the truth, gw2 isn’t a grindy game.

If a lot of rewards are only available in a way that many if not most people consider a boring grind that is a problem and your game is grindy (for those elements).

A problem that should be talked about and really should be solved. That is what this topic is about. We already established like on page 2 or so that grind it’s also a personal thing. But it’s good to see you catching up.

OK OK. MOST people. Gotcha. So then, MOST people who play the game must be posting in this topic ATM right? And not the same people over and over talking in circles?

Actually I agree with Devata. Most people consider the way to get stuff in this game a boring grind. The problem is I’ve yet to see any MMO where it’s been otherwise.

It goes back to content can’t be produced fast enough so grind has to be introduced. The trick is to make it so all the grind items are optional and people can make their own choices.

Because making things easier to get, ie allowing people to have them faster just means people getting bored faster.

The grind is boring, but having nothing to work for is even more boring…to a lot of people…maybe even most.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

Erick Alastor.3917:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Minor nitpick to your minor nitpick.

The game world in GW is not persistent. Only the towns/outposts (i.e., the lobbies) are.

Towns/Outposts were and are part of the world and the platforms that promoted social interactions. There were mobs to kill there? No, but that’s another story.
An online world is not by definition a place where you have to/can kill stuff.
Anyway this thread is not about GW1vsGW2. Feel free to prove that I’m wrong in what I say, I don’t care, I’ll stop now derailing the thread. Have a nice day :*

But there is a significant factor in this thread that is on topic. Devata believes that this game can get updates as fast as Guild Wars 1 did and I don’t believe it can. Those updates were easier to program because there were less people in each zone.

You do realize that in outposts in Guild Wars 1 you couldn’t even use skills. They were literally lobbies. The game was played in on a playing field where Anet knew exactly how many people would be present at each encounter. Either one person with 7 heroes in all of Sparkfly Swamp or 8 people. That’s what they had to design for. Those events didn’t scale. They didn’t interact with each other. Creatures didn’t spontaneously spawn.

That makes it harder to make and test a game. It takes longer. You need more dynamic events than quests (by a magnitude of 3 according to what Anet said) so that there’s usually something for people to do in a zone.

So where does grind fit in?

Grind is there to keep people from leaving the game between content updates. If you give people nothing to chip away at, many people will get bored and walk away.

There are many types of players, but I believe most of them don’t know how to make their own fun. They have to be led around by the nose.

It goes back to the release of ascended gear and keeping players in game. Would it have been better to have more content instead of ascended gear? Absolutely. But how many months would it have taken to make that new content, as opposed to added ascended gear to the game and once people blew through that content, what would Anet do then? It would take them months to make more content.

Anet added the ascended gear grind for the reason every MMORPG has grind. To keep people playing who need something to work on that shows a gain in power. Without that, people lose interest, as was the case with both my sons.

Not all people, but probably enough people to make a statement.

people need goals, and progression, not necessarily grind.
how well you can interweave this and maximize the enjoyment of of your content/game is the goal.
I feel with most of gw2 endgame goals they are failing to make the game more enjoyable. The game is best enjoyed by ignoring most of these endgame goals, thats a flaw in design.

the rewards as part of game design, are designed to enhance the experience and incentivize interesting play. If your rewards arent doing this, its a flaw in the design.

The problem here is one person’s progression is another person’s grind. I thought the ascended weapons were too grindy. Always have. Frankly I didn’t want them at all. But I believe that people were leaving the game because of nothing to do and the only thing that could be added quickly was something grindy. So Anet made a compromise. They put in this grind to keep people but didn’t make it necessary to do content.

Fast forward, Anet has a balancing act to perform. I don’t believe they can create content much faster than they’re doing and no matter what people are going to blow through content. So the artificial bumps in the road keep people in the game.

You might say why not just add a new dungeon. That’ll keep people playing. That’ll keep dungeon runners playing. It’s not going to keep me playing. Well you might say add a new PvP map. That’ll keep PvPers playing, but it won’t keep me playing. Well, you might say add stuff to WvW. That’ll keep the WvWer’s playing, but it won’t keep me playing.

Put in some achievements for me to go after, that’ll keep me playing. And its’ a lot faster htan designing a new dungeon, a new PvP map and new stuff for WvW. It’s a matter of balance.

Anet said when they started you’d be able to play how you wanted. What if a serious percentage of people want to grind?

Erick Alastor.3917:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Minor nitpick to your minor nitpick.

The game world in GW is not persistent. Only the towns/outposts (i.e., the lobbies) are.

Towns/Outposts were and are part of the world and the platforms that promoted social interactions. There were mobs to kill there? No, but that’s another story.
An online world is not by definition a place where you have to/can kill stuff.
Anyway this thread is not about GW1vsGW2. Feel free to prove that I’m wrong in what I say, I don’t care, I’ll stop now derailing the thread. Have a nice day :*

But there is a significant factor in this thread that is on topic. Devata believes that this game can get updates as fast as Guild Wars 1 did and I don’t believe it can. Those updates were easier to program because there were less people in each zone.

You do realize that in outposts in Guild Wars 1 you couldn’t even use skills. They were literally lobbies. The game was played in on a playing field where Anet knew exactly how many people would be present at each encounter. Either one person with 7 heroes in all of Sparkfly Swamp or 8 people. That’s what they had to design for. Those events didn’t scale. They didn’t interact with each other. Creatures didn’t spontaneously spawn.

That makes it harder to make and test a game. It takes longer. You need more dynamic events than quests (by a magnitude of 3 according to what Anet said) so that there’s usually something for people to do in a zone.

So where does grind fit in?

Grind is there to keep people from leaving the game between content updates. If you give people nothing to chip away at, many people will get bored and walk away.

There are many types of players, but I believe most of them don’t know how to make their own fun. They have to be led around by the nose.

It goes back to the release of ascended gear and keeping players in game. Would it have been better to have more content instead of ascended gear? Absolutely. But how many months would it have taken to make that new content, as opposed to added ascended gear to the game and once people blew through that content, what would Anet do then? It would take them months to make more content.

Anet added the ascended gear grind for the reason every MMORPG has grind. To keep people playing who need something to work on that shows a gain in power. Without that, people lose interest, as was the case with both my sons.

Not all people, but probably enough people to make a statement.

Erick Alastor.3917:

Vayne.8563:

At the time Guild Wars 1 was created there were no free to play MMOs out at all.

False.

Vayne.8563:

And even though Guild Wars 1 itself wasn’t an MMO, it filled the niche of an MMO type of game for many people.

False.

CORPG is a term invented by anet. GW1 IS an MMORPG. You don’t need the ability to create a “zerg” to kill mobs in a persistent world, you need a virtual persistent 2D/3D world that let you meet and interact with many other people supported by a system that facilitate social interaction and roleplaying.

I bet one day the term will be even more extended of what it is today (that is even more complex of what wikipedia suggests). Mmorpg are not all about grinding, quests and killing respawning AI, mmorpg are (and in my opinion should be more) about people.

We can discuss if GW1 it was more closer to a sandbox or a themepark of what GW2 is, but not if it was or not an mmorpg.

By the way, back on topic, regarding the no grind philosophy I do fear the mastery system and the idea that you will be facing some challanges that you won’t be able to overcome not because you lack of skills, but because you lack of mastery points. What will happen if I have all the points required to travel to a specific location of the map, but a friend of mine, after stopping playing for few weeks will come back? Will we still be able to enjoy together the new content? Or will I have to wait untill he will have grinded all the points he needs to reaches me?
If he’ll need to grind, won’t this fracture the popolation? Isn’t the same as introducing a gear treadmill? Those are all the questions running through my mind.

Anyone who thinks 12 people in a zone at one time is an MMO and not a lobby game, I have no idea what to say to them. Anet said the game wasn’t an MMO. Most sites that report on gaming agree Guild Wars 1 isn’t an MMO. And most fans I’ve talked to over the years agree Guild Wars 1 wasn’t an MMO. This has been addressed exhaustively by a lot of people, but almost everyone that I’ve talked to over the years, including people on this forum, agree that Guild Wars 1 didn’t have a persistent world.

In fact, when the Guild Wars 2 FAQ first came out,. it asked the question is Guild Wars 2 an MMO and the answer was yes, Guild Wars 2 will have a persistent world. You can make up any definition you want, but more than any, the existence of a persistent world is what defines an MMO. That is to say, you can run into people in the open world randomly. Guild Wars 1 was a lobby game. You not agreeing doesn’t make me wrong, and this has been discussed so many times, I can’t even imagine anyone would contradict a company about what their own product is.

Now, since you say when Guild Wars 1 came out there were other free to play MMORPGs around perhaps you’d like to name one. I’ll wait here.

gregor lightbringer.7143:

I won’t buy ANYTHING until I know how strongholds will work. It may be the closest, with the current mechanic, to GW1 GvG there is. However, I am skeptical on the feel of it. The mechanic focuses too much on a solo-style game play. GvG in GW1 was team oriented. Yes, I know about spit teams and even where a single profession (mostly ranger or assassin), but you really had to know your profession. I really feel that Anet traded one fan base for another, but that isn’t the topic today, is it?

A lot of people who liked Guild Wars 1 assume that most people liked Guild Wars 1 for the same reason they did, in the same way they did. I don’t believe that to be true. I don’t believe half the people who played Guild Wars 1 ever participated in Guild vs Guild, let alone liked it. As Guild Wars 1 grew as a game, they moved away from PvP and into PvE. You could see how the game started to evolve. That must have meant that a lot of players didn’t play Guild Wars 1 the way you think they did. Or at very least they started trading their fan base a long long time ago. Long before Guild Wars 2 came out.

Guess you’ll never be playing PvP again.

Jahroots.6791:

Vayne.8563:

But I have a guild full of people and what I don’t want to see is someone saying, looking for a group to do this dungeon and then hearing them say, sorry you can’t join us, you don’t have the pack.

It creates complications. It puts pressure on people who might not have the money to get it to keep up with everyone else…sort of like an expansion.

This is understandable. I’ve seen this happen first hand in DDO and LotRO where we could unlock content in bits and pieces. It sucks, but it’s life.

We’ve already established that ANet cannot give us any substantial content without revenue to fund it, and it’s unreasonable to limit options for those willing to pay so that we don’t upset those who can or will not.

Yes, it’s precisely after playing DDO and Lotro that I’m against it. It causes more problems than it solved…for me. Your mileage may vary.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

naiasonod.9265:

Vayne.8563:

~

~

I agree. I think this sort of thing is the best compromise. The thing, even though it’s a step in the right direction, according to Devata, it’s too grindy for his/her tastes.

Well if you’re going to make new stuff not grindy and not cost gold and not cost cash, I’m not sure what the options are.

Her answer is, repeatedly, new expansions, new content. She claims it’ll work but I don’t see the evidence for this. I don’t think in this day and age that a developer could put out enough new content fast enough to make a game truly buy to play with no cash shop.

Devata brings up another game but the DLC content which they come out with goes against the ideal plan.

This is the limitation of believing only one ways is good. If it was the only good way everyone would be doing it. I believe the way Devata wants the game to be run would result in less players and I believe it would be a tremendous risk.

Your comment is a little hard to follow, you talk about the cash-shop and a way to keep players playing (as if a cash-shop does that??) and the ability to push out enough content to keep people busy but what I am saying pushing out an expansion once every year, year and a half. Most P2P MMO’s put out an expansion every 2 years with some patches in-between and that is enough to keep people busy (sure people leave after WoW’s patch, but more than enough also keep playing) so why would an expansion a year not be able to do so.

It’s all not that very different from what the market is already doing if it comes to the way to keep people playing or the content being pushed out.

The main difference form what the market is doing would be the payment model but that’s only different from the MMO market, in fact the B2P model is still the most used model in the complete gaming industry.

Lastly the other game I talked about was in a separate discussion talking about if a game would have to generate income on a monthly base or if it would also be possible on a yearly or longer base (especially if development cost where high). The fact that one of the examples of very expensive games was using more or less a similar system as the B2P I suggest was nothing more than a side note but not used as an example to show the model would work in an MMO (as far as destiny is an mmo). As far as I know that game has only one DLC released by now what would help to show they don’t need income on a monthly base (like the big bunch) what was the only point about the other game.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I’m not talking about the cash shop as a way of keeping players playing. I’m talking about the game existing at all. I’m talking about having enough money going forward to add any kind of content at all.

Pretty much from the moment your game comes out, you’re working on more content for it. It is your belief that that content could be made into an expansion and that would be enough to cover costs and make a profit. It’s my opinion that that’s not enough in this day and age. You have a belief it can happen and I have a belief it can’t. Not for an MMORPG. Not with the amount of competition out there.

If the game doesn’t exist there will be no content and no one playing. I’m not sure what’s hard to follow about that.

Money-wise the numbers we can use seem to show it will work, even better than the current model. So then the only question that remains is if they are able to create one expansion a year.

Where are you getting those numbers. You’re assuming that Anet can come out with an expansion as frequently as they used to. You’re assuming the number of people that will buy the expansion. There are a lot of assumptions in your numbers.

Simplest question is this. If this is such a great way to make more money, why aren’t people doing it? I say it’s because the risk factor is way higher than you think it is.

hybrid.5027:

I guess most of the people against this idea didn’t get the Bonus Mission Pack in GW1 that was, essentially, instanced content that gave unique (and awesome) skin rewards.

Nope I wasn’t against the Bonus mission pack. I have absolutely NOTHING again solo content like that. Because it is solo. No one can come with you.

But I have a guild full of people and what I don’t want to see is someone saying, looking for a group to do this dungeon and then hearing them say, sorry you can’t join us, you don’t have the pack.

It creates complications. It puts pressure on people who might not have the money to get it to keep up with everyone else…sort of like an expansion.

But for the people who don’t have it, and they’re watching others run these dungeons, it’s a bit of a let down. That’s not the case with the historical mission pack.

There are areas you’ll only be able to reach by gliding.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

naiasonod.9265:

Vayne.8563:

Because if it getting the carapace armor worked your way, everyone would have it in two days or three days and then they’d be crying there’s nothing to do.

How do you solve that problem and your problem at the same time?

I can only speak for myself on this one, but I entirely approve of the bandit crest vendor and using things like that as a deterministic way to get what we want. 1000 bandit crests + 1 gold isn’t at all hard to get, even from the most casual of perspectives I can reasonably think of.

Only wanna spend maybe a half hour a day out in the Silverwastes? Get tired of doing events after maybe ten tops? You’ll still be able to get some of those pieces deterministically in a very reasonable timeframe.

Want every single piece for all three armor types? You’ve got a bit of farming to do.

Want all of those carapace pieces to be transmuted into luminescent pieces? You’ve got even more farming to do.

But if all you want is a carapace heavy chestpiece and legs to spice up your heavy armor options? Pff. You don’t even have to farm for those. Just go do the last chapters of the living story and bam, there you go.

I think the way they’ve handled carapace is excellent, and I dearly hope we see more balances between availability and things to ‘work for’, as much as I personally loath the phrase’s application in this context.

I agree. I think this sort of thing is the best compromise. The thing, even though it’s a step in the right direction, according to Devata, it’s too grindy for his/her tastes.

Well if you’re going to make new stuff not grindy and not cost gold and not cost cash, I’m not sure what the options are.

Her answer is, repeatedly, new expansions, new content. She claims it’ll work but I don’t see the evidence for this. I don’t think in this day and age that a developer could put out enough new content fast enough to make a game truly buy to play with no cash shop.

Devata brings up another game but the DLC content which they come out with goes against the ideal plan.

This is the limitation of believing only one ways is good. If it was the only good way everyone would be doing it. I believe the way Devata wants the game to be run would result in less players and I believe it would be a tremendous risk.

Your comment is a little hard to follow, you talk about the cash-shop and a way to keep players playing (as if a cash-shop does that??) and the ability to push out enough content to keep people busy but what I am saying pushing out an expansion once every year, year and a half. Most P2P MMO’s put out an expansion every 2 years with some patches in-between and that is enough to keep people busy (sure people leave after WoW’s patch, but more than enough also keep playing) so why would an expansion a year not be able to do so.

It’s all not that very different from what the market is already doing if it comes to the way to keep people playing or the content being pushed out.

The main difference form what the market is doing would be the payment model but that’s only different from the MMO market, in fact the B2P model is still the most used model in the complete gaming industry.

Lastly the other game I talked about was in a separate discussion talking about if a game would have to generate income on a monthly base or if it would also be possible on a yearly or longer base (especially if development cost where high). The fact that one of the examples of very expensive games was using more or less a similar system as the B2P I suggest was nothing more than a side note but not used as an example to show the model would work in an MMO (as far as destiny is an mmo). As far as I know that game has only one DLC released by now what would help to show they don’t need income on a monthly base (like the big bunch) what was the only point about the other game.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I’m not talking about the cash shop as a way of keeping players playing. I’m talking about the game existing at all. I’m talking about having enough money going forward to add any kind of content at all.

Pretty much from the moment your game comes out, you’re working on more content for it. It is your belief that that content could be made into an expansion and that would be enough to cover costs and make a profit. It’s my opinion that that’s not enough in this day and age. You have a belief it can happen and I have a belief it can’t. Not for an MMORPG. Not with the amount of competition out there.

If the game doesn’t exist there will be no content and no one playing. I’m not sure what’s hard to follow about that.

Dawdler.8521:

UI has changed quite a bit, but the core is the same. First thing to check is the most likely reset of WvW skills. You may also want to go through your inventories and bank to see if you can put more things in the wallet (I still have old transmutation crystals, lol).

My most noticable thing coming back was of course the dailies. That and getting crap loot taking up more inventory space. I still dont know wtf the spoons are for.

Spoons are part of the new collections. Once you get one and it’s “checked off” you can sell it. You don’t have to save your spoons. When you fill the collection, you get a reward of some kind and achievement points.

As for your question OP, there haven’t been huge changes to the base game, but there are account bound WvW masterys now, the PvP reward system has been completely redone (there are probably new maps since you played too), there’s a new WvW map (as already stated by others) and there are two new PvE zones which people seem to enjoy.

There are new events in the open world, new jumping puzzles.

But the big news is the new expansion coming out, which we’ll start hearing more about in the next couple of weeks.

@munkiman

It’s just this crazy balancing act that no company can really ever get right. If you want to keep people who play all the time playing, you have to have something for them to work towards. You can’t introduce content fast enough, period.

If you don’t target those people, you lose them and they often represent the core of the game.

The trick is to find appropriate compromises. That’s what I believe Anet tried to do with ascended gear.

Frankly, I don’t love grinding any more than the next man and often don’t. It takes me longer to get rewards than it does a lot of other people, because I don’t enjoy grinding…or farming which I consider to be different.

I don’t like repeating content over and over. That includes dungeons in this game and other games. It’s no fun for me.

But companies still have to solve the problem of keeping people busy while they make more stuff. Every company does it differently but they all have a strategy.

I suppose we choose one game over another because we can deal with that company’s strategy to keep people playing.

I saw that and sent an in game mail. I thought it was pretty cool.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

rapthorne.7345:

As far as dailies are concerned, the system gives you dailies based on the highest level character on your account. someone with an 80 on their account will not have the same dailies as someone just starting the game.

Very true. However, it still takes 3 dailies for completionist even if your account only gets 1 task per category. Assuming new players even hear about dailies (ain’t that hard) they would need to do the PvP and WvW ones for completionist. Vet players with new accounts would also need to complete the PvP/WvW ones until leveled high enough to get more choices. This is not a long-term problem for a single account unless one levels quite slowly, but it might be a problem for a high-tier WvW server if there is a regular influx of new players.

So play for 2 hours till you’re level 20? lol

Seriously we’re talking about the first day someone plays a new account, maybe the second. If they’re new they shouldn’t even know about dailies yet.

I’ll give you the salient part again.

IndigoSundown.5419:

This is not a long-term problem for a single account unless one levels quite slowly, but it might be a problem for a high-tier WvW server if there is a regular influx of new players.

Please read and comprehend before responding, please.

I read it. I comprehended it. I usually find your posts insightful but not this one.

We’re postulating a HUGE number of new accounts. We’re postulating a huge number of new accounts that feel they have to do the daily. We postulating a huge number of new accounts that are so stuck in doing the daily one a brand new account that everyone will jump into WvW and have some sort of cumulative affect.

Today it took me, as an experienced player, roughly 2 minutes to get my WvW daily but capping a ruin.

I was in WvW on a new account for roughly 2 minutes. I’m pretty sure those two minutes didn’t tip the vital balance in WvW.

Furthermore, if all servers get new people and the number of people doing this are relatively evenly distributed, then all sides would have the same negatives, more or less.

I don’t think there are enough new accounts often enough that need to do the daily on day one to worry about how it will affect WvW.

Because if you care about doing the daily it’s likely that you’ll have a 15 level character by day 2 and it won’t happen again.

@Devata

The problem is you keep comparing what Anet did with Guild Wars 1 with Guild Wars 2. At the time Guild Wars 1 was created there were no free to play MMOs out at all. The field of competition was very small. And even though Guild Wars 1 itself wasn’t an MMO, it filled the niche of an MMO type of game for many people. Free multiplayer games back then were pretty much unheard of.

The updates that Anet created for that game were far far simpler. The type of thing that you could created and get away with back then, without all the competition, was more modest. For example, Prophecies released with just over 200 quests and 25 missions. That’s what it had. Guild Wars 2 released with over 1500 dynamic events.

You just can’t compare the complexity of the game.

Guild Wars 1 was pathed. Guild Wars 2 isn’t. Guild Wars 1 had no z axis. Guild Wars 2 does. All this adds complexity to the creation of updates.

But the biggest difference is that Guild Wars 1 wasn’t an MMO. You never had to worry about 100 people doing the same even at the same time. You knew exactly how many people could go into each instance. It made the game much easier to program.

One could say that if Guild Wars 2 wasn’t a true MMO, if the genre wasn’t over-crowded with free to play games, and other options, if people’s expectations weren’t much higher now than they were back then, if it weren’t much more expensive to make a game now than it was back then…then maybe, just maybe, you could have been right.

But Guild Wars 1 is almost ten years old. This isn’t then. The game isn’t a simple. And pretty much everything is different.

You say that they could support this game by doing what they did ten years ago. I don’t see how you can be certain of that. And I don’t see how you can expect companies to take a risk on your say so.

The MMO community is more fractured now, with less people playing each game. I don’t believe there’ll ever be another WoW, because WoW only got where it did by coming out when it did.

In the end, there’s only you saying this would work, with no real evidence to support it, except Anet did it years ago.

I strongly believe it wouldn’t work now, but even if I thought it would, I still couldn’t ask a company to risk losing everything on such a small amount of evidence.

DavidH.7380:

Devata.6589:

DavidH.7380:

Devata.6589:

It’s basically like the dungeon token systems, and what I have always said about the dungeon token system is that they are great but only as a side thing! Your main goal for items in a dungeon should imho firstly be some special reward you get for completing it (maybe depending on the difficulty levels or on the paths), then there might be some special RNG drops in there you might wanna get, that should be like your second most reason to wanna do the dungeon (based on the way they put the items in there) and then the tokens would be a great thing your would earn along the way. Something you are not even really farming but you earn it while going for those other things. [I think the caparace stuff is an better example of something you earn along the way and the coat as a direct reward for completing something.]
…
“You were saying?” That there is way to much grind (mainly gold grind) in this game.
Have been saying that all the time, you have not been paying attention?

Anyway, this is a good addition to the thread. Maybe Anet also thinks the grind get less if they also make some stuff available in-game, but that is of cource not the case. If I want to collect skins and special items the grind is still just as much there and if I want to hunt down for specific items changes are big those are still behind the gold-grind (or another currency grind).

It sounds like what you are describing is a system where new content (dungeon,puzzle,quest chain, boss, LS chapter, etc.) is released and completing it once or twice more or less automatically gives you the best / majority of the rewards from that content. If you want an item then you complete the associated content or, looked at from the other direction, when you complete fresh content (for you) then you obtain the important associated items and you can move on to something else that is fresh.
~Skip for space

No I said it would you would work with 3 types of reward at the same time. The one for completing it (and you can be creative with this, like complete it at easy mode and get the skin, complete it at hard mode and you get the skin but one part of it is silver, complete it ad epic mode and you get the skin to also glow)

Then there are also some rng drops in there (thats what makes it more interesting to repeat) and at the same time there is a token system that should not be designed like you have to grind it but while playing for the rng drops you get it along the way so even if you are unlucky you are not leaving empty handed.

Having one group of mobs that does drop one mini version of itself with a very rare drop-change at multiple places in the world is by itself indeed also a boring farm but mixed in with other systems it’s not that bad.

And there are so many places you can easily put those sorts of rewards they should be able to keep you going for a long time.

With a better understanding of what it is you are advocating, I’ve come to the conclusion that you have some good suggestions. I think they would be especially good if combined with the “RNG + failure bonus” ideas that are being tossed around in the RNG thread. Combined you’d have a wider variety of items and activities to pursue in the game, multiple vanity versions of identical items for the low, medium, and high time investment players, and the best combined features of both the RNG and token systems. Throw in some gold grindable/sellable rare world rare drops, gem store alternatives, and PvP / WvW tracks, and you probably would be closer to having something for everyone and less perceived grind than the current system.

In a sense they have done something like that. Take the modrem parts you need to get your collection done for your carapace armor. Those collections require specific parts from each mordrem boss in the breech event. But then on the next up date the come out with extractors that allow you to get the specific parts you need. If you wait till that update there’s no RNG at all.

There are ways to speed up heart progress, even though they’re solo. For example, there are many hearts where you interact with something to spawn an enemy and each person can interact with the same thing separately but you can both then share the kill to progress those hearts.

Keep in mind this game has no real dedicated healer and in most instances, you don’t really need a dedicated healer. That said, a lot of people do heal. So if you’re a min/maxer type trying to get a speed run group through a dungeon, the healing spec is not really highly regarded.

On the other hand, it works with just about every casual run.

naiasonod.9265:

aerial.7021:

naiasonod.9265:

I can only speak for myself on this one, but I entirely approve of the bandit crest vendor and using things like that as a deterministic way to get what we want. 1000 bandit crests + 1 gold isn’t at all hard to get, even from the most casual of perspectives I can reasonably think of.

As a skin yes, stat wise though its far from ideal its not even exotic.

The only especially coveted stats that aren’t ridiculously easy to get is the Celestial array courtesy of time gating. I dunno, I think the point is the skins, not the stats.

This game’s pretty definitively built on vanity being the allure far more than power via vertical gear progression…though it wouldn’t hurt a bit if they made things like Carapace exotic and let you pick your own stat prefix for them.

/shrug

Pretty much my take on it too. Even the highest racial armor is only rare. It’s clearly meant to be about the skins.

Egg Shennn.6240:

Vayne.8563:

It’ll eventually be multiple paths. That’s what the whole idea is about. Right now there’ll be one. Later on more will be added.

Yes, eventually it should be a great plan, alot like secondary profession options gave you in GW1, but after just shy of 3 years from the initial launch, getting the 1 specialization for each class feels weak to me. And I was a huge GW1 fan, played it right up till GW2 finally arrived. GW2 was lacking at the outset to grab me the way GW1 did (lack of individuality in builds) so this finally being added to the game is huge to me, but like I said, starting with a single specialization isn’t much of a choice to swap between. Stay as you are or have this one option? That’s limited choice, though better than the current no choice…

2 years from now it’ll probably be great…

It doesn’t feel weak to me. New expansion, new profession, a new way to play eight different professions, all with new elites and healing skills and utility skills and traits? Maybe you think it won’t take a year to balance it?

While it was be lovely to have more specializations, it’s not realistic. Even if each specialization only adds have a profession, that’s still five professions in the expansion, not counting the masteries which also affect balance.

You can add stuff too quickly.

And they don’t have to wait for an expansion to add another one once the functionality is in.

Kentaine.4692:

Dailies based on account in a WvW complaint thread? Really, you’re using THAT argument here! That only makes a remote amount of sense in PvE!

A level 2 character has three dailies, 1 in PvE that is ‘level’ based (assuming they don’t have a level 15), 1 in PvP (probably capture point or get rank points) and WvW (probably camp capture or ruin capture)…

The OPs complaints are completely founded and even as a PvEer I can understand that (especially since the dailies have been turning the game into uncomfortable time instead of relaxation time by funneling me to WvW or PvP).

The WP issues stem from the Megaserver, the map you’re looking at may not actually be the one you’re zoning to. Only way to fix this would be to put ALL events on regular timers that end only after all maps complete them.

I’ve never heard a banker talking about buying/selling, always boasting that they’re rich which is kittening annoying when thinking about socio-economic issues of the world. What’s more annoying is the kitten bloody NPCs (that do absolutely nothing other than make an already crowded bank feel used as an ‘emersion’ trick) that walk up to the bankers that overrule my ‘f’ button when trying to talk.

Right and if that level 1 character doesn’t do the daily for 2 days they’ve temporarily lost exactly 20 achievement points. That’s it. It’s NOTHING.

Because if you play long enough you get it back at the end anyway when you max out. And if you don’t keep playing you don’t get them.

It’s not like the old days where they’re losing a laurel, or whatever. They’re losing a few achievement points, that will eventually come back if they play long enough.

Seriously what kind of complaint is that?

IndigoSundown.5419:

rapthorne.7345:

As far as dailies are concerned, the system gives you dailies based on the highest level character on your account. someone with an 80 on their account will not have the same dailies as someone just starting the game.

Very true. However, it still takes 3 dailies for completionist even if your account only gets 1 task per category. Assuming new players even hear about dailies (ain’t that hard) they would need to do the PvP and WvW ones for completionist. Vet players with new accounts would also need to complete the PvP/WvW ones until leveled high enough to get more choices. This is not a long-term problem for a single account unless one levels quite slowly, but it might be a problem for a high-tier WvW server if there is a regular influx of new players.

So play for 2 hours till you’re level 20? lol

Seriously we’re talking about the first day someone plays a new account, maybe the second. If they’re new they shouldn’t even know about dailies yet.

naiasonod.9265:

Vayne.8563:

Because if it getting the carapace armor worked your way, everyone would have it in two days or three days and then they’d be crying there’s nothing to do.

How do you solve that problem and your problem at the same time?

I can only speak for myself on this one, but I entirely approve of the bandit crest vendor and using things like that as a deterministic way to get what we want. 1000 bandit crests + 1 gold isn’t at all hard to get, even from the most casual of perspectives I can reasonably think of.

Only wanna spend maybe a half hour a day out in the Silverwastes? Get tired of doing events after maybe ten tops? You’ll still be able to get some of those pieces deterministically in a very reasonable timeframe.

Want every single piece for all three armor types? You’ve got a bit of farming to do.

Want all of those carapace pieces to be transmuted into luminescent pieces? You’ve got even more farming to do.

But if all you want is a carapace heavy chestpiece and legs to spice up your heavy armor options? Pff. You don’t even have to farm for those. Just go do the last chapters of the living story and bam, there you go.

I think the way they’ve handled carapace is excellent, and I dearly hope we see more balances between availability and things to ‘work for’, as much as I personally loath the phrase’s application in this context.

I agree. I think this sort of thing is the best compromise. The thing, even though it’s a step in the right direction, according to Devata, it’s too grindy for his/her tastes.

Well if you’re going to make new stuff not grindy and not cost gold and not cost cash, I’m not sure what the options are.

Her answer is, repeatedly, new expansions, new content. She claims it’ll work but I don’t see the evidence for this. I don’t think in this day and age that a developer could put out enough new content fast enough to make a game truly buy to play with no cash shop.

Devata brings up another game but the DLC content which they come out with goes against the ideal plan.

This is the limitation of believing only one ways is good. If it was the only good way everyone would be doing it. I believe the way Devata wants the game to be run would result in less players and I believe it would be a tremendous risk.

Lowken.9518:

Leo G.4501:

You mentioned endgame so I’m guessing you’re talking about PvE.

Not just PvE but PvP also. Normally you can’t do PvP till endgame. But I forgot you can get into WvW stuff at low levels. So yeah, I meant both :P Should’ve probably put what specificly what I was going to do.

You can PvP in this game almost right away without leveling.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

snip

I don’t know but it seems to me that the WoW players, of which there are many and I am not one of them, are willing to fork out cash for that game.

So is Blizzard more greedy or are their customers less stingy? Apparently these players enjoy the game to the point of having no issue spending money on it even for something as a shiny horse.

snip

There are precious few content updates between expansions. That’s why people play for three months and then subs fall off until the next expansion comes out.

But don’t make the mistake that WOW has these numbers because it’s such a great game. It is definitely an addictive game, though, I’ll give it that.

snip

WoW does advertise heavily and they have tons of people vested in the game for years on end, so sure, they have that advantage. But they don’t have regular content updates, trust me on that.

There’s also plenty of grind. Ask people about faction grind one day.

Those sons that also stopped playing GW2? So maybe the lack of updates you talk about (The ones GW2 does have) is not the reason?

If I read this I would almost conclude the solution would be more regular expansions… Oow wait, thats what I have been suggesting all the time.

No, they essentially play games to grind. As long as grind is present they seem to play. When they complete the current grind they move games.

So they got all the mini’s, all the armor, the highest stats, all the other cosmetics and items in GW2?

No. they don’t care about minis. They care about stats. That’s why ascended armor drew them back here, but minis and armor don’t.

You love cosmetics, and you think lots of people go through cosmetics. WoW’s popularity is based, at least in part, 1 on making your numbers bigger. In Guild Wars 2 your numbers aren’t going to get bigger and so they just don’t care.

Oke, lets for a moment, just for the sake of argument and to prevent repeating everything again play on your turn.

I dislike the ‘type of grind’ and the ‘quantity’ of grind, and find that especially the case for the element of the game I personally prefer the most. The same part that happens to also be the focus point of this game. Cosmetics.

I also find this grind or this type of grind, especially for this part of the game to be way worse that the way many other mmo’s reward there stuff.

This is not how I alone feel but how many people feel.

Because of that I would suggest Anet does something about it. (I just have an example of how it could be better) I don’t care how they fix it as long as they fix it. And while it seems completely logically that it’s linked to the cash-shop focus this link is not the important thing for me. What is important for me is that they fix it. The only reason I do point towards that link is because I think to solve a problem you need to find the cause of the problem. But again, in the end it’s the result that I care for the most.

How is this Vaye? Can you live with this formulation of the problem we are talking about here?

I can live with it. It won’t happen but I can live with it. It won’t happen because there is no way for the company to produce content fast enough for the content locusts. Even in Guild Wars 1’s time, people finished Factions in weeks and claimed there was nothing to do.

The strategy here is that you don’t get these big drops but you can get drops from anywhere, making the world feel bigger, to me anyway, because you can go anywhere. I don’t want to be standing around in zone X waiting for Y to drop. I don’t particularly like it in Drytop and the Silverwastes, which was a change in the direction you liked.

What you want is very specific. You want to go to a specific place and have a chance to get a specific reward, without grinding and without ridiculous RNG and without spending gold. You want what you want. You’ve narrowed down what you want to such a narrow point that you won’t get it, because other people want other things, even if there are other people who want what you want.

I want the freedom to roam in any map and have a chance of getting something cool. That’s what I want. So, yes, your very specific, needlessly restrictive set of desires, is incompatible with my desires.

Because if it getting the carapace armor worked your way, everyone would have it in two days or three days and then they’d be crying there’s nothing to do.

How do you solve that problem and your problem at the same time?

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

No I’m not going to argue with you that WoW’s cash shop is similar to Guild Wars 2. Because WoW makes I don’t know, $150,000,000 per month in subscription fees. They don’t update content regularly, they just sell you an expansion every couple of years. So no big content updates. You pay for the expansion. you pay for the monthly fee AND there’s a cash shop. If that doesn’t strike you as greedy, there’s absolutely nothing to talk about. On top of that:

http://www.themarysue.com/celestial-steed-world-of-warcraft/

This game is far less greedy than that game….in my opinion.

I don’t know but it seems to me that the WoW players, of which there are many and I am not one of them, are willing to fork out cash for that game.

So is Blizzard more greedy or are their customers less stingy? Apparently these players enjoy the game to the point of having no issue spending money on it even for something as a shiny horse.

And correct me if I am wrong, there are also content updates in WoW between the major expansions. Blizzard certainly knows how to make money with WoW, but I don’t think they would be successful if it was just them being greedy. Perhaps they are simply able to create an experience where people enjoy the game to the point of spending some extra cash on it. I never liked WoW but I can’t argue with those numbers and it seems to simple to just pin the pricing down to greed.

There are precious few content updates between expansions. That’s why people play for three months and then subs fall off until the next expansion comes out.

But don’t make the mistake that WOW has these numbers because it’s such a great game. It is definitely an addictive game, though, I’ll give it that.

I have two sons that are subscribed to WoW again, and they’re bored already. But this happens every time an expansion comes out. They buy it. They subscribe to it. One of my sons doesn’t even like it that much but he does it anyway. He ends up not playing more than he plays…but he still subscribes.

WoW does advertise heavily and they have tons of people vested in the game for years on end, so sure, they have that advantage. But they don’t have regular content updates, trust me on that.

There’s also plenty of grind. Ask people about faction grind one day.

Those sons that also stopped playing GW2? So maybe the lack of updates you talk about (The ones GW2 does have) is not the reason?

If I read this I would almost conclude the solution would be more regular expansions… Oow wait, thats what I have been suggesting all the time.

No, they essentially play games to grind. As long as grind is present they seem to play. When they complete the current grind they move games.

So they got all the mini’s, all the armor, the highest stats, all the other cosmetics and items in GW2?

No. they don’t care about minis. They care about stats. That’s why ascended armor drew them back here, but minis and armor don’t.

You love cosmetics, and you think lots of people go through cosmetics. WoW’s popularity is based, at least in part, 1 on making your numbers bigger. In Guild Wars 2 your numbers aren’t going to get bigger and so they just don’t care.

You might see what weapon your friend is using and what weapon you are using. A ranger with a short bow won’t tag as many things as a guardian with a staff. However if the ranger changes to axes, then he’ll likely tag more things and finish events faster.

The rest of it sounds a whole lot like impatience to me. I run with guildies all the time and help them finish stuff.

Even if you finish a heart, you still get experience continuing to kill stuff in an area. You still get drops. The difference shouldn’t be so long.

As for skill points, that does only happen on your first character. It’s all nice that you want to rush your friend to keep up with you, but maybe he’s entitled to just experience that game too.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

@Devata,

I haven’t come to the same conclusions you have. I think WoW depends more heavily on the cash shop than you think (plenty if their really cool mounts are only available in the cash shop) and I don’t think that this game has the issues you think.

That is to say I agree that the game is funded by the cash shop, but I don’t see the problems you do. I think your dislike of it magnifies a lot of the issues with it. I’ve almost never had a problem with the cash shop in this game.

Of course, I’ve played Turbine games and Perfect World before this, and that might be way.

Compared to most MMOs with a cash shop that have no subscription, this game still feels like a breath of fresh air.

snip

No I’m not going to argue with you that WoW’s cash shop is similar to Guild Wars 2. Because WoW makes I don’t know, $150,000,000 per month in subscription fees. They don’t update content regularly, they just sell you an expansion every couple of years. So no big content updates. You pay for the expansion. you pay for the monthly fee AND there’s a cash shop. If that doesn’t strike you as greedy, there’s absolutely nothing to talk about. On top of that:

http://www.themarysue.com/celestial-steed-world-of-warcraft/

This game is far less greedy than that game….in my opinion.

I see what you did there. Changing the subject to what is more greedy to end with a ‘in the end I am right’ as if that was the subject. Yes WoW is more greedy, thats what I dislike about WoW. But you where talking about there cash-shop before, saying how intrusive that was, what is simply untrue, just as you now say they don’t have bigger patches in-between what is also untrue. The game itself has less or really no influence from the cash-shop and there is less grind (like the type we see in Gw2) for these type of items, you earn by far most of them directly ingame.. what is what we where talking about, not what company was more greedy.

This might all be very interesting but in the end the discussion is about the grind in GW2 (or the sub discussion between us, the cash-shop involvement between them… btw a sub-discussion you started, not me). And then GW2 still is very grindy if it comes to those things, the cash-shop is very likely to blame for it. Therefor the solution likely also lays in there payment model.

Well, the thing is, I’ve played lots of MMOs with lots of different systems and there’s grind in all of them. I don’t believe that the grind in WoW is any less (though its’ different) than the grind here. Faction farming in other MMOs like Rift and WoW is obnoxious and I can’t stand it.

You’re still blaming the cash shop for our grind, while ignoring grind in those other games. Just as my kids finish grind there and stop playing, they finish grind here and stop playing. They keep returning there and giving WoW more money because they are conditioned TO grind. They want to level up their characters. They get to max level and they stop playing again. To me, it’s a sad situation. I don’t even think they’re having fun. But they’re willing to pay.

I’m convinced if there were more grind here, they would come back to grind. In fact, one of them came back, got his ascended stuff and left again. He’ll be back again when the new content comes out to grind something else.

I wonder if the mastery point grind will be enough to keep him here. And these kids aren’t alone in this. This is how a lot of people play these games, hence my understanding of why I believe Anet added ascended gear.

Your constant use of the cash shop as an example of why we have to grind just doesn’t really stack up. And I still feel I was grinding as much in Guild Wars 1 as here.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

No I’m not going to argue with you that WoW’s cash shop is similar to Guild Wars 2. Because WoW makes I don’t know, $150,000,000 per month in subscription fees. They don’t update content regularly, they just sell you an expansion every couple of years. So no big content updates. You pay for the expansion. you pay for the monthly fee AND there’s a cash shop. If that doesn’t strike you as greedy, there’s absolutely nothing to talk about. On top of that:

http://www.themarysue.com/celestial-steed-world-of-warcraft/

This game is far less greedy than that game….in my opinion.

I don’t know but it seems to me that the WoW players, of which there are many and I am not one of them, are willing to fork out cash for that game.

So is Blizzard more greedy or are their customers less stingy? Apparently these players enjoy the game to the point of having no issue spending money on it even for something as a shiny horse.

And correct me if I am wrong, there are also content updates in WoW between the major expansions. Blizzard certainly knows how to make money with WoW, but I don’t think they would be successful if it was just them being greedy. Perhaps they are simply able to create an experience where people enjoy the game to the point of spending some extra cash on it. I never liked WoW but I can’t argue with those numbers and it seems to simple to just pin the pricing down to greed.

There are precious few content updates between expansions. That’s why people play for three months and then subs fall off until the next expansion comes out.

But don’t make the mistake that WOW has these numbers because it’s such a great game. It is definitely an addictive game, though, I’ll give it that.

I have two sons that are subscribed to WoW again, and they’re bored already. But this happens every time an expansion comes out. They buy it. They subscribe to it. One of my sons doesn’t even like it that much but he does it anyway. He ends up not playing more than he plays…but he still subscribes.

WoW does advertise heavily and they have tons of people vested in the game for years on end, so sure, they have that advantage. But they don’t have regular content updates, trust me on that.

There’s also plenty of grind. Ask people about faction grind one day.

Those sons that also stopped playing GW2? So maybe the lack of updates you talk about (The ones GW2 does have) is not the reason?

If I read this I would almost conclude the solution would be more regular expansions… Oow wait, thats what I have been suggesting all the time.

No, they essentially play games to grind. As long as grind is present they seem to play. When they complete the current grind they move games.

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

There are precious few content updates between expansions. That’s why people play for three months and then subs fall off until the next expansion comes out.

But don’t make the mistake that WOW has these numbers because it’s such a great game. It is definitely an addictive game, though, I’ll give it that.

I have two sons that are subscribed to WoW again, and they’re bored already. But this happens every time an expansion comes out. They buy it. They subscribe to it. One of my sons doesn’t even like it that much but he does it anyway. He ends up not playing more than he plays…but he still subscribes.

WoW does advertise heavily and they have tons of people vested in the game for years on end, so sure, they have that advantage. But they don’t have regular content updates, trust me on that.

There’s also plenty of grind. Ask people about faction grind one day.

And yet with all of that it is the most successful MMO of all and people keep coming back.

My guess is that they do not need everybody to be playing all the time because they can afford people to come and go as they do. Clearly the game is so old that it also is not so expensive to build new content for as new games do, so it is a great money maker.

I would not be surprised if their new MMO that went by the name Titan has been delayed simply because there is no need for them to replace WoW.

I am guessing that these regular content updates that people talk about are not needed there.

Any MMO will bore most people at some point I would think. Constantly being kept busy by a game is an impossible feat unless you accept repetition and enjoy it.

I do think though that WoW has a lot more to offer than GW2, aside from whether or not you like the game and its content.

No matter the semantics of words like grind and farming, I think that for a lot of people GW2 is boring because of senseless repetition being the main activity for level 80s. I call it senseless at least.

WoW has plenty of that as well, but that little thing called progression, does make a difference for a lot of people I think.

That’s why I think that a game without endgame progression needs other meaningful activities and for me it was clear that GW2 lacks in quality alternatives for this. You seem to be enjoying the game still. That will forever remain a mystery to me

Their new MMO was scrapped completely and the resources used in it are making a new game, an FPS I think. They currently don’t have a new MMORPG planned AFAIK.

I don’t believe that most people who play WoW do end game progression. They do, however, level their characters to max level. I can’t prove this, but I believe it.

But there’s definitely grind there, that’s my point. And the grind there never really ends.

Yes. It is entirely possible that when you log in on the first day of HoT you will already have mastery points. Colin did confirm this on one of the interviews.

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

No I’m not going to argue with you that WoW’s cash shop is similar to Guild Wars 2. Because WoW makes I don’t know, $150,000,000 per month in subscription fees. They don’t update content regularly, they just sell you an expansion every couple of years. So no big content updates. You pay for the expansion. you pay for the monthly fee AND there’s a cash shop. If that doesn’t strike you as greedy, there’s absolutely nothing to talk about. On top of that:

http://www.themarysue.com/celestial-steed-world-of-warcraft/

This game is far less greedy than that game….in my opinion.

I don’t know but it seems to me that the WoW players, of which there are many and I am not one of them, are willing to fork out cash for that game.

So is Blizzard more greedy or are their customers less stingy? Apparently these players enjoy the game to the point of having no issue spending money on it even for something as a shiny horse.

And correct me if I am wrong, there are also content updates in WoW between the major expansions. Blizzard certainly knows how to make money with WoW, but I don’t think they would be successful if it was just them being greedy. Perhaps they are simply able to create an experience where people enjoy the game to the point of spending some extra cash on it. I never liked WoW but I can’t argue with those numbers and it seems to simple to just pin the pricing down to greed.

There are precious few content updates between expansions. That’s why people play for three months and then subs fall off until the next expansion comes out.

But don’t make the mistake that WOW has these numbers because it’s such a great game. It is definitely an addictive game, though, I’ll give it that.

I have two sons that are subscribed to WoW again, and they’re bored already. But this happens every time an expansion comes out. They buy it. They subscribe to it. One of my sons doesn’t even like it that much but he does it anyway. He ends up not playing more than he plays…but he still subscribes.

WoW does advertise heavily and they have tons of people vested in the game for years on end, so sure, they have that advantage. But they don’t have regular content updates, trust me on that.

There’s also plenty of grind. Ask people about faction grind one day.

Lifestealer.4910:

Vayne.8563:

Lifestealer.4910:

Naus the Gobbo.5172:

Varrg.2704:

….atleast find a better game.

I don’t think you’ll find a much better game than this.

There are actually heaps of games better than this. The only reason this game is popular is because its so easy to succeed in, pretty much everyone is a winner.

Totally your opinion. I don’t think there are heaps better MMOs than this one, for sure. And every MMO that everyone said was going to kill this game that came out has struggled. Every single one.

So I’m not sure where all those better games are. And it’s entirely possible you might fight those games better than this one, but some of us don’t. It’s not like I can’t go raid in other games. I just find raiding annoying and a colossal waste of energy.

So what if its my opinion?.. subjects like this has always been preference mostly.

I do not look for raids though i wouldn’t mind them, i look for content where there is tension, where i have to learn things, improve to succeed. This game really lacks content for such things. 98% of the content in this game can be breezed through without even learning your class. This is why so many people are still clueless as to how to play their class, because the game hardly ever challenges anybody to give it their best or experiment.

The only thing that is even remotely challenging is fractals but it is so old and done to death a million times.

I believe tension is crucial to have in any game because if there aren’t any, then people like me fall asleep facerolling everything. But i don’t think Anet is going to change their stance as they continue to pump out mindless living stories and silverwaste map that even a 12 year old can beat with one hand.

I believe that tension isn’t crucial to any game. Now you may like tension, but there are lots of people who play games to relax and not have tension. It’s entirely possible that what you want out of a game is diametrically opposed to what I want out of a game. You want tension. You find that good and acceptable.

I don’t want tension. I don’t find that good or acceptable. If I wanted tension, I’d remarry my ex-wife.

The point is, there is more to games than just challenge…for some people. And for many people this game has challenging things in it.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

@Devata,

I haven’t come to the same conclusions you have. I think WoW depends more heavily on the cash shop than you think (plenty if their really cool mounts are only available in the cash shop) and I don’t think that this game has the issues you think.

That is to say I agree that the game is funded by the cash shop, but I don’t see the problems you do. I think your dislike of it magnifies a lot of the issues with it. I’ve almost never had a problem with the cash shop in this game.

Of course, I’ve played Turbine games and Perfect World before this, and that might be way.

Compared to most MMOs with a cash shop that have no subscription, this game still feels like a breath of fresh air.

Did a google search for you. WoW has a total of 425 mounts, there are 343 mounts available in-game so that excludes all the ones that where removed (I think) or the ones you get with expansions pack or the cash-shop or you get for inviting people to the game and so on. In there shop (what has 36 items in total!) they have 9 mounts! And we can have different tastes I am also willing to agree most of those 9 are cool but still some of the coolest are in fact available in-game. I once made a list of all mounts I might want to get in WoW and only one of them was in the cash-shop, two where removed at some point, 1 was in the cash-hop. (It where about 80 mounts.. you see thats what I like, hunting down these sorts of things in the game)

Now imagine we do the same with mini’s (as you have them in both games). Really wanna go argue with me that WoW’s cash-shop is similar to GW2’s? Come on Vayne. You might want to defend Anet’s approach but lets try to fool each other.

If you focus on the cash-shop to earn most of your money it will have more effect on the game then if you don’t.

“I’ve almost never had a problem with the cash shop in this game.” Well I run into them all the time. You see what I just said about those 80 mounts I like to hunt down in WoW (or special ranger pets, or toys, or mini’s or other skins). I did try to do the same in GW2.. Oow he has a cool mini oow need to grind gold for it. Oow nice weapon skin.. oow Black lion scrap skin. If I was to make a list of 80 cosmetics I would like in GW2 I would be happy is 10 would be available in a viable way ingame without some boring currency grind mainly gold. And thats just how it is, that has nothing to do with opinions or seeing problems magnified. That’s just a fact. And when of those 80 things 10 are reasonable to get the whole fun of collecting them is gone (including those 10) at least for me. If it was the other way around I could be fine with it.

I am not saying ‘compared to other cash-shop games’ this game is bad. I say for a B2P game this game is bad. Simply because I expect a B2P game to focus on the game / expansions to earn money (like GW1) while I expect a F2P / cash-shop game to focus on the cash-shop. You see, there is a reason I do not play those other games but I did come to GW2. So that comparison does not make it any better.

No I’m not going to argue with you that WoW’s cash shop is similar to Guild Wars 2. Because WoW makes I don’t know, $150,000,000 per month in subscription fees. They don’t update content regularly, they just sell you an expansion every couple of years. So no big content updates. You pay for the expansion. you pay for the monthly fee AND there’s a cash shop. If that doesn’t strike you as greedy, there’s absolutely nothing to talk about. On top of that:

http://www.themarysue.com/celestial-steed-world-of-warcraft/

This game is far less greedy than that game….in my opinion.