Guild Wars 2

The trait changes aren’t being ignored by Anet. They’ll be changed completely with Heart of Thorns.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

It all starts with your definition of grind. The grind in this game is comparable, to me, to the grind in Guild Wars 2.

Indeed. And this topic has proved that your definition of grind (and that you claimed was ArenaNet’s definition) was wrong; it’s not ArenaNet’s definition of grind. From which we see that your interpretation of the Manifesto was wrong as well (see my signature for details). Thus, if that’s how the discussion starts, and in that you were wrong, well…

What was said in the manifesto was said in the manifesto. It’s a paragraph. You can ask anyone in the world to ask what they meant by something they said 4 years ago, and it has about as much chance as being wrong as right.

Do you even think Colin wrote the manifesto?

The paragraph is quite clear. All you have to do is look at the words in it.

Colin is answering questions from four years ago based on stuff that’s said since. But the manifesto is something that anyone can read and see, and without having a previous definition of grind, depending on the document itself for grind, it’s self-explanatory.

If you don’t agree, it doesn’t change anything. There’s not a single word in that paragraph about gear. Not one.

Nor is there any word (in that document) that states they do not consider gear or cosmetics grind as a grind or that it would not fit in there no grind philosophy.

Also this thread was created based on the no grind being talked about again during the announcement of HoT (where it was mentioned more in the context of doing something only once on your account instead of once per character, not leveling as there is no increase in level cap with HoT).

But seriously, are you now saying Colin is wrong?

However, again it’s not really relevant. It’s great Colin did clear up what they meant with their ‘no grind philosophy’ but that does not mean peoples complains about grind (that might not be the type of grind that Anet tries to prevent because of their ‘no grind philosophy’) is not valid. It still is. They have something in the game they dislike so they rightfully so talk about it on the forum hoping Anet will do something about it.

Sorry about I’m a writer and an editor. Colin is responding to an ever-changing industry, to specific complaints. I’m looking at the original manifesto. The words in it, period. Nothing else.

Colin has multiple responsibilities, including PR. The words of the manifesto, however, don’t change from year to year. They’re not like memories. They’re recorded. We KNOW what they say.

You ask anyone to describe anything from four years ago, and you’ll get discrepancies from reality. If you want to argue about what was meant in the manifesto, use the wording of the manifesto to back up what you meant. Do you know why you don’t? Because you can’t. The wording isn’t there to support what you’re saying. The wording is there to support what I’m saying. It really is that simple.

There is a paragraph in the manifesto where they talk about grind and in that paragraph they do NOT talk about gear, or gold. They talk about combat. They talk about people repeating stuff over and over again and want to make combat fun again. So they gave us multiple ways to level.

But in addition to that, in early panels where they spoke about it, BACK THEN, they reiterated this. They didn’t say anything about gear on those panels in reference to the manifesto.

I won’t bother arguing with you, you’ve made up your mind. But it doesn’t make you right.

Hi Jaymee… I can understand what you’re saying completely and I’m happy you found something to take your mind off your pain.

My wife is disabled and I care for her. Often distraction is the only thing that works for her pain as well. Don’t worry about what other people say. They don’t live your life, and people who haven’t been in your situation won’t understand. Most of them anyway.

For my wife, Guild Wars 2 is also a way of life.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

captainteemo.6537:

`

~

Watch this.

I played other MMORPGs and I find them, almost universally, to be more grindy than Guild Wars 2. So the people who complain about grind don’t know what they’re talking about. It’s very easy to say that. It’s still just your opinion and other people have other opinions.

It all starts with your definition of grind. The grind in this game is comparable, to me, to the grind in Guild Wars 2. It’s not particularly bad.

Because in Guild Wars 2, to max my skills like Luxon and Sunspear and Lightbringer and all the Eye of the North skills, I had to farm a lot of points. It sure felt grindy to me.
~ snap for space

What your basically saying is that factually you can’t say there is grind because grind is an opinion.

snip

So factually people are grinding gold and factually there are many items only game wise obtainable in this game with gold.

Of course it’s personal how much grind you consider bad, no denying that (while again common sense does get you a long way here) but an item I earn by completing a quest does not fall in the category ‘grind’ what is a much used way to reward those items in the other games while for most of those items here I have as only option grinding gold what already would make it even more grindy based on that alone. Even without the common sense of the amount of grind is required in GW2 for collecting those type of items.

“So the people who complain about grind don’t know what they’re talking about. It’s very easy to say that. It’s still just your opinion and other people have other opinions.”
It was captainteemo who made a statement like this, not me. I am not saying he might not experience any grind in those games or less grind in this game. I think he is telling the truth about that part and likely experience less grind because he plays in another way prefers other parts of the game / gameplay.

You would have done a great job arguing why captainteemo’s statement is wrong, not mine.

So sorry, but this tactic of trying to disprove something with these sorts of arguments do not work on me, and really, why are you still using them? I did see you use the same tactics in discussions where people said many players where leaving the game, on what you basically said they could not make that statement, they did not have the numbers. Forums where just a minority and there guilds where just a subgroup and so on (basically also ignoring common sense because you could not factually proof it). Of course eventually Anet came with the NPE also saying they were losing to many players even before they got 80. Turns out those people you tried to knock down with this sort of arguments where right. Same for temporary content discussions, so Vayne please let’s try to have a normal discussion instead of trying to use these sort of tactics and let also no dismiss common sense.

I would appreciate that. The common sense stuff is also what the players experience you see. It’s irrelevant for the player that something as grind is also bound to opinion and so it can’t factually / scientifically be said it is a grind. Completely irrelevant, they experience a grind and might dislike that part of the game. That’s it and that’s all that is relevant here.

The argument doesn’t work on you because you’ve already made up your mind. To people who haven’t made up their mind, they can make up their own minds whether my argument is sound.

You don’t get to define grind your way. You don’t get to make up your own definitions. In any statement using a word with multiple definitions, it’s the speaker who defines how he’s using the word. If people after that want to use the word differently and then call that speaker a liar, well, that’s their own affair. I don’t think it’s right and I’ll never think it’s right.

So yes, by your definition there is grind in this game. But since the original statements weren’t using your definition, I don’t see the relevance of your statement.

The manifesto, where all this started, never mentioned gear in the paragraph about grind. It never mentioned gold. It mentioned combat.

You want to go off in a different direction and talk about other stuff go ahead. But don’t try to pretend it’s reasonable.

Yes I agree with you. Your definition of grind, as used by you, is in the game. But it’s not the only definition of grind and it’s not the definition of grind as implied by the words of the manifesto.

Again, if you can see anything in that paragraph about gear or about gold or about vertical progression, I’d love to see it.

No one can produce that evidence because it doesn’t exist. I’m using the actual words of the manifesto, to which Anet referred.

You’re using another definition, which may not be empirically wrong, but it’s misleading when taken with what Anet said.

Eye of the North was the only expansion for Guild Wars 1. The others were stand alone games. It came with no new race and no new profession. /thread.

I don’t know why people are so short sighted. Everything isn’t right now. There’s one choice now and this is the structure from which it continues, so more choices going forward.

You don’t offer 87 choices all at once, and then find that you can’t balance anything. You add one and then you add another later.

It really is almost like having a new profession because all your skills change.

If you’re into WvW that’s one thing. If you’re into PvE it doesn’t matter quite as much…because the mega servers keep things lively at all hours of the day and night.

shadow.6174:

Vayne.8563:

The NPE isn’t perfect., but it’s not as bad as people make out either.

Yes, I agree it’s not perfect. But also it’s not so good as you make out either.

Considering most of the limitations either kick in about the same amount of time they used to, or they don’t kick in at all after you unlock them once, I’m not sure what you’d base that on.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne.8563:

CorrynnStarr.7942:

vayne is partial correct, and it only proves my point more… these items can be harvested in the open world quite easily… so then why is a single node in an instance worth so much? even if I had a hundred friends and we allll spent all day long doing nothing but harvesting these mats… were still talking 300 units per person. you will neither make your money back for buying these, and 300 units on the BLTC per person will do nothing but drive prices down to regular levels…

That’s exactly my point. If Anet put something in the cash shop that was a real advantage, people would be screaming pay to win. This isn’t pay to win. It’s not even really worth it.

So how is it greedy to put something not worth it into the cash shop.

Greedy would be to take them out of the world and then put them in the cash shop.

People scream pay to win anyway, Vayne. What’s the point in trying to circumvent it at all anymore, just do it and be done.

I guess there’s a difference between unreasonable people screaming it and actually being it. If I thought this game was pay to win I’d have trouble playing it.

nexxe.7081:

Vayne.8563:

nexxe.7081:

The problem is, that those node items will decrease the chance of acquiring other things in the chest. The more things you add to it, the lesser chance you have at wanting something. Perhaps they could offer different variety of chests that are tailored for crafting/gathering.

Out of curiosity, what would you want more than a node? Let’s say, for example, you can sell the node for 200-300 gold. That’s enough for a couple of Black Lion Weapons.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Black_Lion_Chest#Contents

There’s more desirable things than those nodes, such as Tickets, Endless Tonics, Backpacks, Minis, etc. These items are more valuable because they can’t be acquired easily, where as with the node, the stuff from it can be gathered pretty much endlessly.

The first slot is always a booster, according to that link, which leaves 2 slots that are randomized for over 30 items. The list will keep growing, which makes the chance of wanting something even less.

The problem with acquiring the node, is that it might not sell when you want it to, or it might drop in price in the future. Even if someone finds it useful for their home instance, it’s still very limiting to it’s uses. In my opinion, it isn’t very useful or desirable compared to other items.

Items like that will probably discourage people to not even take their chances with the boxes anymore. The issue isn’t about selling it for gold either. It’s about getting an unwanted item, which then makes a customer disappointed. It’s sort of like those cracker jack toys you get in the boxes, or in cereal boxes. They lose their lustre after awhile, because you know you’ll be disappointed.

A better solution would be, to have specialized boxes. In that list, there are primers, salvage kits, banks, repairs, boosters, etc. These could be packaged into an Adventurer’s box for leveling or just general pve stuff. Or you can have backpacks, makeover kits, dyes, outfits, and other things in a specialized box for character customization. There probably isn’t that many items for a certain category to package them like that, but they could eventually do it. This would probably make people more interested in certain items, and would give them more incentive to buy boxes.

Any of those nodes, though, are the equivalent of more than two tickets that’s my point. So if tickets are on your list, a node is better than a ticket. A ticket can be used to buy an item worth 90 gold for the most part. A node sells for the price of multiple items.

But to each his own I guess.

And no one really knows if the chance to get the item they want are higher or lower than they were a year ago. Changes occur in the BLTC all the time.

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

It all starts with your definition of grind. The grind in this game is comparable, to me, to the grind in Guild Wars 2.

Indeed. And this topic has proved that your definition of grind (and that you claimed was ArenaNet’s definition) was wrong; it’s not ArenaNet’s definition of grind. From which we see that your interpretation of the Manifesto was wrong as well (see my signature for details). Thus, if that’s how the discussion starts, and in that you were wrong, well…

What was said in the manifesto was said in the manifesto. It’s a paragraph. You can ask anyone in the world to ask what they meant by something they said 4 years ago, and it has about as much chance as being wrong as right.

Do you even think Colin wrote the manifesto?

The paragraph is quite clear. All you have to do is look at the words in it.

Colin is answering questions from four years ago based on stuff that’s said since. But the manifesto is something that anyone can read and see, and without having a previous definition of grind, depending on the document itself for grind, it’s self-explanatory.

If you don’t agree, it doesn’t change anything. There’s not a single word in that paragraph about gear. Not one.

nexxe.7081:

The problem is, that those node items will decrease the chance of acquiring other things in the chest. The more things you add to it, the lesser chance you have at wanting something. Perhaps they could offer different variety of chests that are tailored for crafting/gathering.

Out of curiosity, what would you want more than a node? Let’s say, for example, you can sell the node for 200-300 gold. That’s enough for a couple of Black Lion Weapons.

Devata.6589:

captainteemo.6537:

After a short break from playing gw2 and coming back to it from other MMOs. You guys seriously don’t know what it means for an MMO to be grindy. Guildwars2 has it pretty good. If you’re upset, go try out other mmos and see for yourself.

I did play other games before GW2 and I recently also did play another MMO for a while again. Including MMO’s that are part of the so called grindy games, but the matter of fact is that for the part I like in mmo’s, my preferred game-play (And that is the important part here) GW2 is by far the most grindy of them all. So much that I don’t do that part of the game in GW2, what is sad as GW2 is known for this part (cosmetics).

So please don’t come here and tell people who complain about grind don’t know what they are talking about. They do.

Watch this.

I played other MMORPGs and I find them, almost universally, to be more grindy than Guild Wars 2. So the people who complain about grind don’t know what they’re talking about. It’s very easy to say that. It’s still just your opinion and other people have other opinions.

It all starts with your definition of grind. The grind in this game is comparable, to me, to the grind in Guild Wars 2. It’s not particularly bad.

Because in Guild Wars 2, to max my skills like Luxon and Sunspear and Lightbringer and all the Eye of the North skills, I had to farm a lot of points. It sure felt grindy to me.

In some cases, I wanted those stats more than I need ascended gear in Guild Wars 2.

In the end, it’s all just a matter of what you consider grind. I thought Lotro was far more grindy than Guild Wars 2. DDO is certainly more grindy than Guild Wars 2. And I certainly felt like I was grinding in AOC.

CorrynnStarr.7942:

vayne is partial correct, and it only proves my point more… these items can be harvested in the open world quite easily… so then why is a single node in an instance worth so much? even if I had a hundred friends and we allll spent all day long doing nothing but harvesting these mats… were still talking 300 units per person. you will neither make your money back for buying these, and 300 units on the BLTC per person will do nothing but drive prices down to regular levels…

That’s exactly my point. If Anet put something in the cash shop that was a real advantage, people would be screaming pay to win. This isn’t pay to win. It’s not even really worth it.

So how is it greedy to put something not worth it into the cash shop.

Greedy would be to take them out of the world and then put them in the cash shop.

CorrynnStarr.7942:

no offense steven, but you are precisely the problem here…
they have gone from selling 3 nodes in a bundle for 800 gems to a single RNG BL chest gamble that forces you to spend money on keys…. Anet has become so kitten greedy it isn’t funny….

It is possible that Anet has gotten greedy, but this in particular is not evidence of it. The fact is, none of those nodes are so worth buying keys for that it would make any sense to do so.

They’re giving away stuff that’s free in the open world. It’s a convenience. Conveniences in the cash shop have always been fair game.

I know people love to play the greed card, but I really think people need to take a step back and look at exactly what’s on offer.

Can you get all this stuff in the game anyway? Yes. Is it hard to get? No. What’s the issue?

tigirius.9014:

Shadowmoon.7986:

Zero Day.2594:

And he admitted their fault.
Some people can’t seem to digest it still…

Where did he ever admit this about infusions?
Only statement he backed away from was “having best statistical gear by the time you hit 80” from the is it fun blog post.

No admittance of faults occurred no apology to the fans for making the mistake of adding two things to the game they claimed would never happen (gear treadmill/power creep – grind) nothing….in fact according to the show they are in full denial mode “we delivered what we set out to do” and “games change sometimes” are pretty much all we heard. There’s rose tinted glasses and then there are full on blinders.

I don’t think they need to admit fault, and I don’t think they need to apologize. You’re talking about a change made years ago, and they offered at the time, refunds to people who didn’t like that change, even going as far as offering a refund for six months. And many people didn’t care about the change at all.

There was a “grass roots” movement of people to whom vertical progression of any kind was a four letter word, but that movement didn’t represent any kind of majority. If you didn’t like the changes to the game, you should have cut your losses right then, and gotten a refund which apparently some people did.

If you chose to stay and you continue to complain, you are entitled to exactly nothing.

Actually a player logging in every day isn’t likely to earn more laurels than a player before.

If you log in every 2 weeks and get your daily reward, you’ll at the end of the same number of days of you logging in, you’ll end up with more laurels than you did. You could only get one a day the other way. So if you logged in every 2 weeks, you’d only get 2 per month that way.

The new way you might not get them every time you log in, but over time (a long time if you log in every two weeks), you’d get more this way.

That said, if someone hardly ever plays, I don’t really know why they’d need laurels so badly.

shadow.6174:

Vayne.8563:

I disagree with this. The amount of people who are brand new to the game and who have no idea, would see this locked stuff as normal and not think twice about it.

That’s almost what I meant. What I meant was if people would get frustrated by things being locked they would get frustrated even so, either knowing when it will unlock later or not. And I said that knowing it would unlock at some point later doesn’t make it look like “not-locked”, it will always look “locked”. Just doesn’t make sense to say “the door isn’t locked because it will unlock later”, that was what I meant.

Also yes, there are several things which were locked before and people didn’t complain. In fact, I never did neither do bother about elite, utility and other skills being locked. They DO make sense regarding learning process. But why locking out/hiding things like vistas, story/map progression and others based on level. These don’t make sense and are what made me dislike it.

But they’re not actually locking out vistas, they’re simply not putting icons on the map. If you see a vista, you can get it. So it wouldn’t jar anyone either. Because new players wouldn’t know they should be on the map.

The NPE isn’t perfect., but it’s not as bad as people make out either.

I tend to use the summary page a lot more than I’d need to know what I’m going to get next. I agree it should be moved lower, or be on it’s own page.

shadow.6174:

Vayne.8563:

Saying something is locked, doesn’t make it locked. It’s the same with skill points. They’re only locked on the first character you level through the NPE. On each subsequent character they’re not locked.

Sure, it’s inconvenient to have to know stuff to play the game. But saying stuff is locked when it’s not isn’t great either.

Well, for the time you are leveling that first character the things are YES locked, so YES they are locked, period. In real life you don’t face a gate or door locked and say “no, it’s not locked because it will be unlocked later”, you see it locked and it’s really locked, period. And the duration of leveling a first char is very enough to get someone frustrated and quit even before they would even have the “chance” to see it unlocked with a new char.

I disagree with this. The amount of people who are brand new to the game and who have no idea, would see this locked stuff as normal and not think twice about it.

Because you know, people are reacting as if this stuff wasn’t locked before and much of it was. That is to say, you couldn’t weapon swap before till level 7. The amount of time it used to take to get to level 7 is about the same amount of time it now takes to get to level 15.

We didn’t have skills unlock until levels 10, 15 and 20 before, and it’s faster to get to the levels now were skills unlock.

People are blinded by numbers, but the new players don’t have those numbers. Just as getting your level 30 elite skill was always gated, and no one complained about it, new players won’t complain about this either.

Victory.2879:

Vayne.8563:

BentoDetective.6491:

Strictly, from a veteran player’s point of view, many aspects of the game are locked. Yes, the contents slowly unlock as you play. But compared to the old, everything seems painfully slow. Remember the good old days where you can enter PvP or WvW right from the get-go. Now, we have to level up a bit before being allowed entry. Limits and restrictions. Many areas of the game are locked behind countless barriers. Are new players so fragile that their minds would explode if given options? Many people like a fork in the road, so that they can choose their own paths.

I did read some good reviews, so I do try and keep an open mind. There are always two sides to a story. This post is my side.

Nope, you can enter PvP and WvW from level 2 if you want. Through the portals in Lion’s Arch.

Most new players and quite a few older ones won’t know that though. I must admit I didn’t know that until I saw a team member in eotm on my level 18 toon who was level 5 and asked him.

I’m not liking the NPE, all this level gating of stuff is very offputting. The number of times I had to explain in starter zones why people couldn’t see waypoints, nodes, vistas, etc on their map got tiring real quick, and when you explain it’s level locked the automatic response was ’that’s stupid’.

New people don’t need to enter PvP or WvW till they learn some very basics. It takes a couple of hours to get high enough to get the lay of the land. It’s not unreasonable to allow new people to learn the basics of the game first. I don’t know why anyone thinks it is.

Older people, like you did, can find out. Saying something is locked, doesn’t make it locked. It’s the same with skill points. They’re only locked on the first character you level through the NPE. On each subsequent character they’re not locked.

Sure, it’s inconvenient to have to know stuff to play the game. But saying stuff is locked when it’s not isn’t great either.

BentoDetective.6491:

Strictly, from a veteran player’s point of view, many aspects of the game are locked. Yes, the contents slowly unlock as you play. But compared to the old, everything seems painfully slow. Remember the good old days where you can enter PvP or WvW right from the get-go. Now, we have to level up a bit before being allowed entry. Limits and restrictions. Many areas of the game are locked behind countless barriers. Are new players so fragile that their minds would explode if given options? Many people like a fork in the road, so that they can choose their own paths.

I did read some good reviews, so I do try and keep an open mind. There are always two sides to a story. This post is my side.

Nope, you can enter PvP and WvW from level 2 if you want. Through the portals in Lion’s Arch.

Lifestealer.4910:

ascended isn’t the only 1, when trait change happened, their whole philosophy went out the window literally.

The trait change has nothing at all to do with grind. I dislike the trait change immensely, but having people do a bunch of different things to unlock a bunch of different traits isn’t grind.

If you have to clear a zone to unlock a trait and then kill the grub to unlock a different trait and then do a story mode dungeon to unlock a different trait, it sucks.

But I don’t see how you can classify it as grind.

The question is what sets your guild apart from any other guild. What makes it your guild. Guilds that make it either target everyone constantly, or target specific people who fit their overarching guild “theme” for lack of a better word.

I see ads for guilds all the time, who do everything. My guild never sells itself like that. We have a specific type of player we’re looking for and seldom openly recruit. We target very specific types of players.

More doesn’t mean better and having 300 members doesn’t make a guild better than ours.

We have about a hundred people log in every week. We seldom have more than 20 people online on mumble at the same time.

But we feel we’re a strong active guild.

It’s not the size of the wand, it’s the magic that’s in it.

The forums have been much better since you’ve been active on them, Gaile. Hope you stay around for a long time…and I hope you get some well-deserved satisfaction from a job well done.

Distaste.4801:

Vayne.8563:

Let’s also bear in mind that Anet actually brought up the manifesto, which I dissected line by line in so many posts I won’t repeat it here. But there’s no possible way to look at it, using the manifesto’s own words, to make anyone think that they mean any definition of grind but the standard one.

We don’t want people to grind in Guild Wars 2 is a line in a paragraph about combat. Not a paragraph about gear or farming or gaining gold. Grind, as in killing stuff to gain levels. What it means to most old timers.

If you can find something in the manifesto which supports your definition, I’d love to hear it. Because in 3 years since it’s been out, no one has provided anything but that single out of context line, we don’t want people to grind in Guild Wars 2. But everything around it defines it as something other than people are saying.

You can win any argument if you ignore the evidence.

Grind is and always has meant doing something repetitively to achieve some goal. It is synonymous with farming. It has never been directly tied to leveling only. You can certainly level grind, you can also farm experience. You can faction grind or you can farm faction. You can grind mobs for loot or you can farm mobs for loot. It’s all the same. As far back as SWG people were grinding for all sorts of things. Mission grinding for cash, experience grinding for leveling, experience grinding for jedi unlocks, merc/geonosian grinding for cubes/adhesive, or just faction grinding to swap sides or buy faction loot. So unless ArenaNet missed a decade of grind being used in a ton of different ways, your argument doesn’t hold water.

You also realize that when he says combat he is talking about anything that involves combat, which ranges from quests to farming mobs. It is exactly why they go on about what makes GW2 events different. That is why he says

“In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff”

The problem is that that is exactly what you do in GW2. Want the BIS gear? Grind. Want a certain WvW rank unlock? Grind. Achievement point unlocks? Grind. Awesome looking skins? Grind. BIS runes/sigils? Grind. Legendaries? Grind. Crafting? Grind. Even if by some stretch of the imagination we are talking purely combat, that’s a grind too! GW2 has an incredibly shallow grindy combat system, I was hoping they would go the TCOS route but they decided to stick with mediocrity. Honestly the “fun stuff” is incredibly few and far between, which is why the game is grindy. Instead of introducing fun content they slap in grind content. Any fun content they do add is usually temporary, which ultimately hurt the game.

So the wikipedia article is wrong? Wow. Maybe you should edit it.

If you delete all characters, you can transfers servers for free, but it won’t do you any good in this instance, for the reasons people have given.

Ashendale.2165:

Once upon a time, you were able to see and do skill challenges since level 1. You also gained 1 skill point per level (instead of getting several bunched in level tiers). But Arena Net’s policy is that you’re too dumb to perceive everything all at once (God forbid reading, eh?) and since last September this is how you’ll be leveling.

Have fun, though. The game has much to offer besides the leveling system (excluding exploring as you level; that’s still fun). Vayne already told you most, if not all, ways of getting skill points.

Oh come now, it’s not as bad as all that. It’s only the first character you level that is locked out of skill points. I just created a brand new character (having leveled a new one since the NPE) and communed with a skill point at level 2.

So once it’s unlocked on a single character, you’ll be able to get them with any character without the lockout.

The fastest way to get skill points while leveling is just to level. That’s it. You’ll continually get skill points as you level. After they unlock at level 13 you’ll be able to do skill point challenges. At high levels, champ bags drop which contain skill points. You can also get skill points by PvPing.

No one knows, but it’s safe to say we’re not getting the Crystal Desert. Why would anyone think we were getting it?

Nike.2631:

Vayne.8563:

Stuff like this always annoys me.

I suggest you don’t do the personal story with your Revenant.

No one will make you, not even the game itself.

I suggest Anet figure out a way to make it make sense, because it will affect a percentage of players, and you know., figuring out how to make it make sense probablyi won’t take months of development time.

Orangensaft.7139:

Arewn.2368:

Obviously Revenant characters shouldn’t be allowed to participate in old content.

Seriously though, gameplay mechanics > lore. There really doesn’t need to be an explanation. Just like the fact that there doesn’t need to be an explanation for replaying Arah and re-defeating Zhaitan at a whim.

this

now end the discussion

There may not need to be an explanation for people who focus on mechanics. But a percentage of people focus on lore and story and couldn’t give two shakes about mechanics.

When people complain about those things I don’t tell them it’s okay it’s not ruining my story.

You guys should be more open minded, because it will bother a percentage of players.

Look it’s more than that when you compare this game to Guild Wars 1. If you add up all the missions and quests in Guild Wars 1 from Prophecies through Eye of the North, all four titles, there are less quests/missions than there were dynamic events in Guild Wars 2 at launch. It doesn’t count the different races. It doesn’t count different starting zones. Or 30 jumping puzzles. Or Guild Missions. Or minigames. Or hearts. Or personal story (and there’s a lot of that) or living story.

If you want to compare dungeons, Guild Wars 1 eventually came out with about 16 dungeons, but there were 33 dungeon paths in Guild Wars 2 at launch and fractals were added soon after.

There was nothing like WvW in Guild Wars 1.

In fact, the FREE content added to Guild Wars 1 after launch was Sorrows Embrace and maybe hard mode. The rest of it was paid expansions.

We’re only getting our first paid expansion now, in a true MMO that is more ambitious than Guild Wars 1 ever was. And that doesn’t take away from GW 1 being an amazing game for its time. It was tremendous. But it doesn’t have the same expectations about it this game has. 1500 dynamic events at launch. More quests and missions than all the paid Guild Wars 1 games put together.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Fernling.1729:

Vayne.8563:

This is from Wikipedia:

snip

Wouldn’t the rest of the quote be relevant as well?

snip

Nope the rest of the quote isn’t relevant. That is to say what I’ve said is providing THE MOST COMMON USEAGE.

Everything Anet has said from beginning to end, since the time of the manifesto supports the definition of THE MOST COMMON USEAGE.

The other definitions might or might not apply.

But if there is a MOST COMMON USEAGE, and that useage is supported by context, continually, then people who are not using the MOST COMMON USEAGE are being willfully ignorant.

If I make a statement and define what I mean and someone comes along and says this sentence can also mean this and this, it’s not relevant at all to my statement.

Even if it was true that was ‘the most common usages’ it does not mean the other usages suddenly do not count as grind anymore. So if people talk about grind they all count equally (that includes Anet talking about grind!). And that paragraph where you quoted from even ends with the sentence [Grinding may be required by some games to unlock additional features such as level progression or additional items.] so the article itself refers to grind for getting additional items. Exactly what is going on here.

Besides you did not make a statement and defined what you meant. You simply quoted a definition (well part of it) from wiki seemingly to proof that, that was the definition of grind. It was not like you said.. I do not find it grindy because for me grindy means this and it does not fit into this. If you did then we might be able to agree it did not fit into your definition what is btw completely irrelevant for the people who consider it grindy.

It seems like everybody here agrees there is grind in GW2 only some want to ignore it because that grind does not count according to them. And I can understand that that grind does not effect there personal game-play but that does not mean it does not count for other people.

As I said, not once, but many times across many threads, if a word has multiple definitions, it’s up to people to define what they mean by it. Anet did that, not once, but many times.

If people refuse to accept that, it’s their own issue.

Let me be lear about two things.

I did hear Anet say they wanted a grind free game. I did not hear them say,’ we want a grind free game but this is what we see as grind and all other other forms of grind don’t count for us as grind so can and will be in the game’.

Second, the fact that they said it would be grind free is nice to refer to in this discussion and makes it even more important but not in any way is it required for the complaint. There are other grindy games people complain about the grind while the company never said it would have no grind. Are they then not allowed to complain about it? Remember the forums back during season 1 when people complained about temporary content. Anet never stated they would not have temporary content. So that statement might make it even more important but it’s not like if it’s required for people to complain about something they dislike in a game.

People dislike this grind and so they complain about it. The defense against that in general in this forum seems to be that it does not fits in there (person defending) definition of a grindy game (while agreeing the grind people complain about does indeed exist) or your defense is that Anet did not specifically mention this grind but was (according to you?) talking about another type of grind. Both seem irrelevant to the complaint. It does not disproof the complaint, it does not devaluate the complaint, it does not make the complaint go away.

Let’s also bear in mind that Anet actually brought up the manifesto, which I dissected line by line in so many posts I won’t repeat it here. But there’s no possible way to look at it, using the manifesto’s own words, to make anyone think that they mean any definition of grind but the standard one.

We don’t want people to grind in Guild Wars 2 is a line in a paragraph about combat. Not a paragraph about gear or farming or gaining gold. Grind, as in killing stuff to gain levels. What it means to most old timers.

If you can find something in the manifesto which supports your definition, I’d love to hear it. Because in 3 years since it’s been out, no one has provided anything but that single out of context line, we don’t want people to grind in Guild Wars 2. But everything around it defines it as something other than people are saying.

You can win any argument if you ignore the evidence.

Galphar.3901:

Vayne.8563:

Galphar.3901:

Vayne.8563:

Considering they were working on an expansion I think the delivery of content has been pretty good already.

2.5+ years to give us 3 new maps and some Living Story? This is the same company that produced 2 stand-alone games and an expansion every 6 months between 2004-2005. I’d say they fall short of what they did in GW.

Except that you haven’t seen the expansion. And that the game at launch was bigger than all three guild wars games put together. No, it hasn’t fallen short.

GW2 is maybe as big as Prophecies(minus Maguma Jungle and Crystal Desert) and EotN. A-Net also had about 1/4 of the staff they do now when they put out Factions, Nightfall, and EotN. Also, we don’t know if HoT will be released this year or next since they haven’t given a release date. And even IF it is this year, it would still be 3+ yrs from release to FIRST expansion.

Yep, newflash. More ambitious projects require more time. There is no way you can compare an MMO to a lobby game, no matter how hard you try. A lobby game without a z axis, mostly pathed, a whole lot less work than that.

And having less people means very little, considering often it takes longer to do things with more people, even though you need them.

I’m not even sure what you’re point is. A non-MMO lobby game, a CORPG was updated faster than an MMO?

Nothing to see here folks. Move along.

Galphar.3901:

Vayne.8563:

Considering they were working on an expansion I think the delivery of content has been pretty good already.

2.5+ years to give us 3 new maps and some Living Story? This is the same company that produced 2 stand-alone games and an expansion every 6 months between 2004-2005. I’d say they fall short of what they did in GW.

Except that you haven’t seen the expansion. And that the game at launch was bigger than all three guild wars games put together. No, it hasn’t fallen short.

Considering they were working on an expansion I think the delivery of content has been pretty good already.

The stuff you want won’t ever be added to this game, because most of the fan base doesn’t want it in this game.

There’s a small chance dueling will but nothing else.

Buck, while I understand what you’re trying to do, you’ve certainly gone about it in an unprofessional way.

The way to have gone about it was to contact the office and send a query letter. Insulting the current writing of the game publicly isn’t going to win you any job offerings. It’s not how to handle it.

That said, the writing for games like this tend to be based on the lowest common denominator. As an avid reader, the story of games is not going to equal the story of books (in general anyway). Games not only have to deal with people who don’t follow story well, but they have to deal with people people who pretty much skip everything. It means the writing has to be more in your face and obvious, with less nuance or subtlety. When writing for a specific audience you have to consider who the game is being written for.

Clue, it’s not just you.

xarallei.4279:

Is the daily thing on the right side of the screen viewable to lowbie characters/new accounts? I can’t remember and I also leveled before all this new leveling stuff occurred anyway. Because if it is viewable I’d say that’s a huge flaw and certainly not something s/he made up.

It’s not viewable on level 3. You have to go look for it.

Playing zerk is a choice. We have other choices. I play dungeons with people who don’t use zerk. It takes longer and it’s not as easy but I probably have more fun.

If you go to a trinity, then the choice evaporates.

If you insist on running with people who insist in the trinity, that’s your own lookout.

Astral Projections.7320:

Vayne.8563:

First of all you’re on a level 3 character. I was under the impression you only had to do one daily at level 3, but even if you didn’t, it takes minutes, literally minutes, to get to level 5 or 6 or 7. It takes about an hour to an hour and a half if you’re slow to get to level 15.

Doing dailies on someone’s first character on a new account isn’t going to be the priority for most people, or really anyone I can think of. They’re learning the game and leveling. They’ll have plenty of time to do dailies.

On your second character, your WvW and PvP will work when you have one character leveled high enough.

On my level 3 character I was required to do all 3 to get the 10 AP and the full daily rewards. Not one, 3. I did one and progressed the bar by one/third.

Whether or not the dailies are a priority is irrelevant. I am pointing out a design flaw. I should never be presented with impossible things to do as my options. If the game gives me dailies and suggests I do them, then they should be something I can do.

The point about a second character is irrelevant. I am talking about choices given to a new starting account.

At that level, on a new account, they don’t suggest you do them. The flaw here is in your thinking. You’re trying to find a flaw where one doesn’t exist.

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

As I said, not once, but many times across many threads, if a word has multiple definitions, it’s up to people to define what they mean by it. Anet did that, not once, but many times.

If people refuse to accept that, it’s their own issue.

Indeed. By never using the words “grind” and “level” close to each other, ArenaNet has made it clear that they have never considered “grind” to mean only level grinding. In fact, their statements about not wanting people to grind show how they see grind as something far more encompassing.

If people refuse to accept that, it’s their own issue

English much? By using them close together they imply that that is what I’m talking about.

Once you get the other waypoints in Dry Top, which you only have to do once, you have to do very very very little jumping to get around the entire zone. I"d be happy to help you get them if you like.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Fernling.1729:

Vayne.8563:

This is from Wikipedia:

Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games.¹² *The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs like Realm of the Mad God, Tibia, or Lineage ³ in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over and over again to advance their character level to be able to access newer content. *

Wouldn’t the rest of the quote be relevant as well?

“Grinding may be required by some games to unlock additional features such as level progression or additional items.”

I don’t think GW2 has terrible grind. I just can’t believe how grindy ascended gear is, which just so happens to be the best gear in the game, but that could possibly be cancelled out because there is no gear treadmill.

Nope the rest of the quote isn’t relevant. That is to say what I’ve said is providing THE MOST COMMON USEAGE.

Everything Anet has said from beginning to end, since the time of the manifesto supports the definition of THE MOST COMMON USEAGE.

The other definitions might or might not apply.

But if there is a MOST COMMON USEAGE, and that useage is supported by context, continually, then people who are not using the MOST COMMON USEAGE are being willfully ignorant.

If I make a statement and define what I mean and someone comes along and says this sentence can also mean this and this, it’s not relevant at all to my statement.

Even if it was true that was ‘the most common usages’ it does not mean the other usages suddenly do not count as grind anymore. So if people talk about grind they all count equally (that includes Anet talking about grind!). And that paragraph where you quoted from even ends with the sentence [Grinding may be required by some games to unlock additional features such as level progression or additional items.] so the article itself refers to grind for getting additional items. Exactly what is going on here.

Besides you did not make a statement and defined what you meant. You simply quoted a definition (well part of it) from wiki seemingly to proof that, that was the definition of grind. It was not like you said.. I do not find it grindy because for me grindy means this and it does not fit into this. If you did then we might be able to agree it did not fit into your definition what is btw completely irrelevant for the people who consider it grindy.

It seems like everybody here agrees there is grind in GW2 only some want to ignore it because that grind does not count according to them. And I can understand that that grind does not effect there personal game-play but that does not mean it does not count for other people.

As I said, not once, but many times across many threads, if a word has multiple definitions, it’s up to people to define what they mean by it. Anet did that, not once, but many times.

If people refuse to accept that, it’s their own issue.

It would be bad if that was what happened…but it doesn’t happen here. What kind of system are you running the game on?

Fernling.1729:

Vayne.8563:

This is from Wikipedia:

Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games.¹² *The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs like Realm of the Mad God, Tibia, or Lineage ³ in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over and over again to advance their character level to be able to access newer content. *

Wouldn’t the rest of the quote be relevant as well?

“Grinding may be required by some games to unlock additional features such as level progression or additional items.”

I don’t think GW2 has terrible grind. I just can’t believe how grindy ascended gear is, which just so happens to be the best gear in the game, but that could possibly be cancelled out because there is no gear treadmill.

Nope the rest of the quote isn’t relevant. That is to say what I’ve said is providing THE MOST COMMON USEAGE.

Everything Anet has said from beginning to end, since the time of the manifesto supports the definition of THE MOST COMMON USEAGE.

The other definitions might or might not apply.

But if there is a MOST COMMON USEAGE, and that useage is supported by context, continually, then people who are not using the MOST COMMON USEAGE are being willfully ignorant.

If I make a statement and define what I mean and someone comes along and says this sentence can also mean this and this, it’s not relevant at all to my statement.

fellyn.5083:

Is this the official White Knight thread?

I have the exact opposite view point. I took a few months off to player other game/mmos and it made me realize how good this game could be.

Not all games are made for all people, which is what I keep telling everyone.

If you don’t like what this game has to offer, it doesn’t mean what this game has to offer is intrinsically worse than what you want. It could simply be that Anet is intending to offer a product that isn’t to your liking.

It’s like saying Coke could be much better if it tasted like Pepsi. Well no. It wouldn’t be much better.

These people aren’t white knights because they like the game. They’re people that like the game. If you like other games better, well that’s okay. You can go play those games.

This game is better for people who are on the same page as the devs. Clearly you’re not one of them.

Okay so Rylock is transformed, comes back as a Revenant. It’s part of the Living Story.

We now get to start a character as a Revenant. Any race. From the beginning.

Which means we get to face Zhaitan as a Revenant, when in theory that precedes the introduction of Revanant to the world. It really is like rewriting history.

Stuff like this always annoys me.

I’ll be buying two copies at least, maybe more.