Guild Wars 2

Dark.7235:

I have to agree, the Karma highway is the best 80 toons have to look forward too. We need more endgame cntent, heck we need endgame content period!

I agree. In GW1 farming was the “end game”. I found it a bit mind numbing at times; but it was relaxing now and then as well.
GW2 wants us to do something different. OK, I can try something new. Yet, each time I try, I get my hand slapped a bit.
Anti-Farm code. No farming.
DR. No Event farming.
OK… Let’s try roaming the world. Where’s the drops for my level? Oh, back on Orr or Frostgorge. Doh! Back I go. Um, to do what?

Not a fan of PvP in this style of game at all. WvW was only mildly OK. I’ll pass on it though. Dungeons, meh. Don’t really like going with PuGs, so I’m limited to about once a week at most on these.

Rewards need to scale to the players level just as costs do. The Anti-bot gimicks need to be thrown out and a more Progressive Event system pushed in. – if Anet is concerned about too much gold in the game, add more armor sets. Players been asking for more since BWE1. Worried about no one buying Gems? Add some armor sets to require both Gold and Gems. Players still don’t HAVE to buy Gems, they can use the exchange.
There’s lots of things Anet can do here; they just need to get back to being creative – like we all know they are.

Xilo.9567:

-Go to heart of the mists.
-Take LArch gate.
-Free port to gate wp.
-Take applicable gate that is closest.
-Profit.

This is a good idea; but how do we bypass the often hour to two hour queue times? This is an honest question; not a trolling one. Am I missing a way around this?

I’ve mentioned this idea a Suggestion post the other day; I’ll share it here in hopes maybe a rep from Anet sees it.

Do away with Anti-Farm code and DR in all it’s forms. Instead, focus on your Dynamic system and expand it.

Players have been asking for more content, more challenge and events that at least seem to alter the area we are in.

Two birds with one stone:

Adjust the DEs to have progressive difficulty. The more players win an event, the more difficult it becomes the next time around. So, for example; Shelter Gate. Players win X times, after awhile; normal Risen no longer spawn. Instead, more and more Vets show up. If players keep winning, some of these Vets turn to Champions. This continues till even several Group Champion bosses show up to evict the players.

Players will get to see what happens with a loss (more content); get a run for their money (more challenge) and bots get a slap down.

Apply this to mobs around the world. Killing a certain spawn X amount of times results in a Vet spawning. Continuing on the same theme as the DEs.

Can add a life timer to the Champion Bosses and Vets so they despawn after some time so as not to have a zone full of big nasties as well.

A type of system like this rewards players, lets them continue playing/farming etc as they want and deals with the bots by making their “farm” spots constantly at rish of being over run by larger foes.

#just a passing idea

bwillb.2165:

Agree about lag, and that was truly frustrating (and still is), but I mean… death doesn’t really mean anything in this game. It’s not “bad”, its just inconvenient. It’s almost as if lack of any understanding of the game and/or you character’s abilities is just… fine. Yet it’s an MMO, so if you , and everyone else you encounter, don’t know anything about anything and just rush in… well, ok then. Just keep doing that and you’ll win eventually.

This is less about needing a harsher death penalty and more about needing content that requires more than just a zerg attack.

Don’t think they can do that in this game without falling into the “Need X class with Y skill with Z Gear” – which then goes against their desired mechanics. Not saying I don’t agree, but I don’t think they can do this while staying true to their goals for the game.

What the game really needs (IMO) is a more progressive DE system. It’s OK to lose now and then. Once players re-learn this, they will be happier players.

A more progressive system will also aid in giving players more content and making it more difficult for bots to continue.

An example of what I mean might be:

Players win Event X several times in a row. Event X begins to spawn progressively more difficult mobs. Vets take the place of Normal mobs for example. If players keep winning it, the Vets become Champions. This continues until players lose.
Now the players get to see the other side of the event chain vs being stuck in the always win state (more content and more difficulty + bots will be backhanded a bit).

Apply this to say, Sheltered Gate. If the Risen had Group Champion mobs eventually spawn to chase the players out; players would then get a run for their money (a challenge). Players would then have to join together to remove the Risen from that camp and hold it till they are shoved out again.

Of course, for something like this to work, Anet would have to lower WP costs as the player base would have to be a mobile as they are in WvW rather than be restricted by costs.

Promega.7628:

WasAGuest.4973:

I like most of the ideas, but suggest dropping DR completely and replace it with a more dynamic event system that scales instead.

For example: If players succeed at event Y several times in a row, then the next time event Y begins, it throws tougher mobs at the players. If players continue to win the system continually ramps up difficulty till we get several Group Champion boss mobs to evict the players.

Players are asking for more dynamic events; mainly because what we get to see is almost always in a critical win state on the players side.

The result of this would be legit players getting a run for their money; while bots on auto run get squashed a bit and their chosen “farm” spot is now over taken till players gather up and recover the area.

This can also be applied to normal mobs. If certain mobs are constantly wiped out; let “mommy” come out to handle the ruffians. Players will be able to handle them, bots on auto pilot will likely get smashed…
Could even make it so players see a big nasty critter coming for them, give them time to vacate the spot and wait it out while bots get insta-killed.

I agree dropping DR and going with a progressive DE system would be an improvement to what we have now but in the end we would all still sit in cursed shore doing the same event chains over and over with the odd “retake the camp” event every so often. With that type of system dont you think players will be just as bored doing the same events over and over even if they are a bit more challenging?

That would depend on how creative Anet gets with it.

Two quick examples might be:

Queensdale Scales. Players/bots farm these for a good while. Vet Scales begin to spawn in place of normal Scales. Players/bots continue farming. Eventually Group Champion Scale spawns. Players will move out of the area or join together to take it out. Bots will get slapped down. – This is the simple solution.

Queensdale Scales again. Players/bots farm these for a good while. Wasps begin to spawn in their place. Scale population went down, wasps moved in.

Example Two:

Shelter Gate in Cursed Shore:

Players/Bots camp gate and farm. Vet Risen begin to spawn making it harder to fight back. Eventually, Group Champion bosses show up to take the area. Players can either wait a pre-set time for the biggest mobs to de-spawn, or attempt to take it out. Maybe add a chest at the end of killing it? Idea is to give the players more to do; while making it more difficult for bots. Randomizing chest location for such an event will also help.

It depends on how creative Anet wants to get. Dynamic is the key feature Anet should be working with. A changing system is more interesting to players and more difficult for bots.

It may also go a long way to have weekly updates where some area that are heavily bot camped be taken over by mobs, big ones. Lowers the effectiveness of bots, and creates interest in “What’s different” for players.

Happens to me during almost every single large scale zone event. Jormag, Shatterer, Priest of Balthazaar, etc.

Today, not only did it just loop through, but now caused my entire system to hang. Moving sound slider to Most Stable only made it happen faster as I caught the end up the Jormag event and it happened nearly the second I got into the event area.

I like the idea. After having gone through the story once; and not really wanting to venture back to Orr on ANY of my alts; I’ve gotten to where I kinda stop on the personal story soon as I am in an order and can purchase my order armor.

So, it being there kinda clutters my screen a bit. I get to the point where I ignore that area; and then miss out on actual events I am interested in.

I like most of the ideas, but suggest dropping DR completely and replace it with a more dynamic event system that scales instead.

For example: If players succeed at event Y several times in a row, then the next time event Y begins, it throws tougher mobs at the players. If players continue to win the system continually ramps up difficulty till we get several Group Champion boss mobs to evict the players.

Players are asking for more dynamic events; mainly because what we get to see is almost always in a critical win state on the players side.

The result of this would be legit players getting a run for their money; while bots on auto run get squashed a bit and their chosen “farm” spot is now over taken till players gather up and recover the area.

This can also be applied to normal mobs. If certain mobs are constantly wiped out; let “mommy” come out to handle the ruffians. Players will be able to handle them, bots on auto pilot will likely get smashed…
Could even make it so players see a big nasty critter coming for them, give them time to vacate the spot and wait it out while bots get insta-killed.

Hadn’t seen this point of view said before; I agree though. Well said.

It has nothing to do with MMOs actually. It has to do with RPGs as a genre.

I see lots of pointing at MMOs, old and new, for this type of training. However, RPGs as a genre have always had, as a staple, story telling and character progression. Most often, this progression came from a leveling up, new gear, etc.
This began with PnP D&D – A good DM always knew how to reward his/her players after a good play session. It kept players interested, not only his the story, but in their characters.

How well MMOs do this depends on each persons’ point of view.

Just thought I would toss out, that it’s not MMOs, rather, RPGs that gave birth to this thinking.

Personally: I was rolling for that +2 Soul Drinking Dagger long before the Atari 2600 came around.

I would like to know this as well; these last several days my drops have gone to almost 90% white junk drops, 8% blues and 2% greens. I’ve not seen a rare or exotic since last week.

So would dropping party effectiveness in favor of magic find help me?

Thanks for the answers. That does help understand how it works a bit better and in turn, helps me make my choice.

Trying to get 100% map complete on my main. However, I am stuck behind the WvW wall.
What I mean is, my server (where all my friends are at) never has control of the areas I am needing. Should I just bounce around and risk getting cut off from my friends (if Anet stops free transfers while I am bouncing around), or do servers eventually get different spawn points? (currently, in one map we have the South East corner. Will that ever change to us owning, say the North?).

I didn’t really enjoy the WvW or PvP in this game. Not my thing if you will. I do love the PvE though and would like to finish the 100% on at least my main – this has me stuck though.

Help?

The gear treadmill, or Rewards for play, started with PnP D&D. A good DM always knows how to reward his/her players for a good play session. It’s a, RPG genre staple rooted that far back.
GW2 actually follows that to a point; the player can defeat a Dragon with a “normal” weapon or a lesser +1 weapon if so needed vs having to have “Glowy Sword of Dragon Slaying”.
Having “better” makes it easier, but isn’t “needed”.

Game is a blast though. So much fun; needs a little work here and there, but what new MMO doesn’t?

Now to get my rl friends to stay… they are all leaving. /pout

Lots and lots of hate for Orr. Most of it seems to stem from Risen and their poor design.

I’ll throw my 2 cents in with my hate for Orr. Can’t stand the place. It’s the most annoying, un-fun, un-interesting end game zone I’ve ever seen in an MMO. And for one reason: Risen.

They are too fast, respawns too quick, and too many of them. It’s a stale mate, constantly here. They can’t kill me, I can’t kill them (respawns). So neither gives till I am ready to punch a kitten/puppy/baby and kite them away. /train

If lore was the focus on why these things are all over; then why are Norn, Sylvari, Charr and Asuran player characters all wearing human armor at the start? Lore breaking. So lets break the lore here on Orr and at least make it entertaining?

^ Thanks. Will have to give it a shot.

Korago.7509:

Farm DEs in Cursed Shore. I made the 100g I needed for my set in less than a week doing that. Totally worth it.

Wish I knew where in this zone you did that. I’m in need of some funds.

[Opinion]

Orr as a zone has some pretty cool looking things to see. Problem is, seeing them.

Risen, as a general rule, are simply the worst designed foes I’ve ever seen in an MMO. Ever. They seem to be made to annoy, not threaten, terrify, or even cause concern.

When my reaction to a foe is “bleh… again? /sigh” vs “Uh oh!” – there’s a design issue.

Icebrood in Frostgorge cause me to second guess my attacking it. Risen, not so.

I saw some concept art for Risen this morning and wondered where those shambling, rotting generally eerie looking undead went. The undead in that art looked amazing. The Risen we got are circus zombies, a bad joke that only the teller gets.

To me, Orr would be a much more sinister place minus 80% of the Risen population. A more deathly, eerie place void of life. Put the Risen in patrols, toughen them up, slow them down (add a chill or muddy terrain aura to them if stopping escape is the idea – that doesn’t work now anyway = choo choo /train).

PS. I really, really hate Orr, am extremely disappointed in it being the “end game” zone. So I am very biased against it.

Improved Food system:

Have the characters auto eat the food that is in their bags by whichever food is on top. This will add some more value to having the food as it’s a constant buff as long as there is food in the bags.
EQ had such a feature and later in the game, having the “right” food on hand for the buff made high level foods more sought after.

Having to constantly remember to eat the food and knowing you’ll likely forget (so don’t bother with it) lowers the value a great deal.

There’s a suggestion on this already… erm, somewhere.

I added to that for the reason of: The Commander Icon on the mini-map covers the icons for shops, banks, crafting locations, etc. Add to that, I am seeing more and more “Commanders” roaming about in cities now. Had 7 of them in LA yesterday; all of them standing on and covering locations of importance.

Just removing the icon for all but WvW areas will go a long way in helping solve the problem.

Can also farm via alts. The more players get alts to 80, the more tier 6 mats will hit the market. If we base the economy off items rather than coin (as most MMOs do and their economies fall to garbage where only the life-less can afford the stuff); then it’s already screwed.

Not worried really though; they hired an economist this time around which may help in combating such a kitten system where only a few can afford to play.

Didn’t I read they locked it off due to exploits in WvW though? Had nothing to do with the economy… or was I seeing things?

80 Thief 8/10 – melee Mob AI really needs to stop trying so hard to flank a fast moving thief with conditions and cripples. I can round up four or five of these stupid mobs and wipe them easily without a break in action.
Easy Mode FTL

80 Mesmer 9/10 – Fun class. Lots of options on how to play it.

Looking forward to trying a Guardian soon.

Has made getting 100% map clears more difficult too. Some servers can’t get control of areas in WvW so players are left unable to get completed. Before, they could jump on a server that might have had control of the area, gotten the clear and gone back home.

I bought a bunch of junk gear and raced to the spots I needed. If I got killed, I didn’t care cause I was tossing the junk anyway and had no intention of repairing the stuff. Could go streaking too, so as to avoid repair costs.

It is odd though that WvW requires clearing for a PvE achievement. Queue times are already bad. Requiring players to jump in there and not contribute (as I did for those final spots) seems… unwise.

Zzulu is right; I just hadn’t known before hand. So no blame on anyone but myself (as I had said, I wish I had reversed the choices I made).

That’s what I’ve been told as well. Once you pick, you are stuck. I was hoping that after I finished the story line the others would open up to me; no such luck though.

It was actually kinda funny for me. Went with Order of Whispers thinking “ah, sneaky, assassins.” Good fit for my thief. Saw the armor and went “eesh! Who designed this crud? Where’s my un-do?”
Then got to the choice with my mesmer. Went with Vigil. Had same reaction. Had I reversed these two I would have been happier. Oh well. Seems all of my characters are doomed to look like either beggars or idiots… or a combination of both.

No offense meant to any of the artists. Taste is subjective and while I don’t like some of it, others do.

I really don’t think Lance is complaining or attacking the game; seems to me he’s trying to use the forums to promote dialog and toss ideas around to make the game better.

I agree with the WP costs (and will focus on WP). I’ve said this in other posts too; the cost is too high to encourage or even allow the joining of Hot Linked events* taking part in the zones we are even in. Pre-level 80 (for that matter, before level 70) the WP costs aren’t really felt. We have hearts to fill that reward cash, plus the events and drops. Remove those hearts (if you’ve completed them all), raise the costs of WPs, and migrating around the world becomes a bit painful.

*The Hot Linked events are great and promote the community joining up to take on tougher foes. But when the costs of joining these are higher than the reward it leaves the player base few choices.
Join at a loss.
Hoof it, in which case you’ll probably be late and miss it. Wasting your time.
Skip it. Potentially leaving those Hot Linking wondering why no one is coming to help.

This mechanically removes players from content they could be joining in on. Anet’s focus on slowing inflation has the side effect of also removing players from doable content.

When we see people say there’s nothing to do at 80; what they mean is that there is nothing to do at 80 that yields a net return for their time.

Fun is as subjective to a person just as “Grind” is. So we can’t tell a person to just play for Fun, when that person might not find seeing his/her revenue stream go down for just joining “Fun”.

I think it’s a core mechanic problem that Anet will get to addressing sooner or later. But until then, it’s just painful trying to play with a level 80 character.
I’ve started an alt, and the difference in enjoyment is startling.

Scarlett.1549:

Same deal with pvp light armour, I want some short skirts or some skin showing apparel.. the only one there is unattainable..

sad face

Which one? If I may ask.

I also hit the “Unattainable” mark with my mesmer. It literally is “unattainable” as it’s an order armor and I didn’t pick the right one. /facepalm

I haven’t “quit”; but I have a few rl friends that have.

One said he would return when rewards are equal to risk. Another said he wouldn’t bother, it wasn’t for him. But then, he loves WoW and the game play there. He’s a number cruncher and getting the .02% increase is the “ooh and ahh”.
A third said she might play again in a few months to see if Anet undoes a few things, and adds better looking player armor that doesn’t take months to get. And the last person said he has no interest with the direction Anet seems to be taking it.

Still have my guild though… so \o/

Note: Paraphrased the opinions they gave me. I can’t and wont argue for them. Take this as it is: “I have a friend that is _” hehe

Grind is subjective.
Whether it’s for need or want items, it’s dependent on each players definition of fun. When any action becomes less entertaining, yet the player feels compelled to do said action, is when it becomes a Grind. Doesn’t matter if it’s for “looks” or stats, Grind is Grind.
Grind is not something a dev can simply address either. As it’s a subjective issue, one player may enjoy killing the same mobs over and over for hours on end and never feel like they are grinding at all. Another person my kill for ten minutes and be screaming their heads off at the “insane level of grind”.

I find the current dungeons armor extremely grindy. I find the “need” for 47k karma from events extremely grindy. I didn’t find the killing of same mobs over and over grindy till they slapped my hand with the anti-farm code. #was_bad

I am perplexed at the way dungeons are set up currently. Anet wants players to experience the entire game, to have us spread out. They are constantly putting in (buggy) stop gaps to force players to move around even before fixing some of the bugged content we already have.
A simpler solution (for dungeons) would have been to put in dungeon timers per path combined with a universal dungeon token system. Complete one path, it’s now locked for 24hours. Go try a different one. Players still get their tokens, Anet gets players to migrate.
Overland fix. Increase rewards per event to scale to character level to equal that of Orr and Frostgorge. Players can then go where ever with leveled rewards and Anet gets players to migrate.
Crafting Mats. Do away with location based nodes. Make nodes “universal” and the mats you get depend on type of tool being used. With level scaling, all areas are still “challenging”, why then should players have to be pulled to Orr for the top tier mats when Anet wants the players to migrate?

These changes would allow players where to make their homes and migrate as they so like. Obviously areas with large scale events will be the most popular, so maybe 24 chest timers might have to be looked into as well (still get full xp, karma and coin for the big events, just lock the chest per 24 hours). /shrug

This is one of my favorite zones actually. Not saying there is a story I could make out, but the lack of a story made it feel (to me at least) it was a frontier zone. An area that is still being carved out, if you will.
Almost as if it’s North America in the early 1800’s. A clash of everyone trying to stake their claim.

Xander.3718:

I do agree with you.. I’ve caught myself countless times attempting to solo “group events” because nobody will help… although there is people using the chat I just don’t see anyone… One thing they need to do which Rift did quite well I believe is make the events difficulty based on how many people are in a certain radius of an event… so there isn’t only 2 people standing trying to convince people to come help. Would help a lot. Also, the community needs to not be so greedy… people do NOT like to help. If they’ve done it before than they don’t want to do it again. I’ve had multiple people tell me this in chat when I asked for help. Kinda sad, but obviously we’ve inherited more WoW players than I expected. GW1 players are GREAT and very helpful though.

I’ve got a level 80 that I am/was running around in clearing maps for the 100%. I saw lots and lots of calls for help. Sadly, I simply can’t afford the near 2s per WP to jump in and help. If I hoof it, most of the time I got there too late; so I stopped trying to join.

Anet needs to lower WP costs so people can join in the events together. The cost cripples my (and others’) ability to join the hot linked events.

Note: Before 80, I would WP all over the map and help all the time. Was an absolute blast. Now, 80. I’m out of hearts to do for added income, so I rely on farming mats to sell on the TP just so I can play normally. I could play the TP game, but I hate that. I want adventure.

Complete reworking of Orr. Make the zones entirely Dynamic with back and forth AI raids against player outposts. Rework outposts into “forts” similar to WvW ones so players and AI can have tactical advantages.
Increase difficulty dynamically. The longer players hold an area, the tougher the raids against them become. Eventually to the point where multiple Zone Champion Mobs are spawned to retake.
Remove stupidly spread out and idle standing Risen. Put them in squads that roam looking for players to jump.
Reduce “Risen on Crack” speed boosts to normal player speeds. Not so we can simply out run and avoid; but because they look so stupid moving so fast. It kills the moment.

Increase rewards from events to be slightly over the cost of WP usage at 80. It shouldn’t take 3 or more events to recover costs of WPing to join friends.

That’s my “Dream List” anyway. :P

This community is rather… interesting. Why the argueing? Thought we were trying to figure out what’s up with the DR.

On topic: As I posted previously, I had been hit with the DR rather suddenly when I switched to my 80 thief from my mesmer (two days ago).
Yesterday, sticking with my mesmer I never once hit the DR and having a nasty cold, pretty much all I did was run events.

Have those that have been hit with DR tried other characters as well? See if you/we get DR on those alts as well? Maybe it has something to do with per character vs account?
Has anyone taken the time to check if the UI isn’t reporting false gains/returns? Could it not be possible we are not seeing correct info? #random_ideas_to_look_at

I would suggest against doing many of those things in that link at 80. Do most of them prior to 80. I didn’t and I regret it now.
For example: Tried a jumping puzzle I skipped out on yesterday. Fell… splat. No one around to rez me. ~1s40c way point. When I was done, I was out ~12s.

My fault I know, cause I"m terrible at judging distance on jumps. AND, had I been half way smart about it, I would have logged on a lowbie alt and been out maybe 2s instead. :P

- Stated as 100% my opinion and personal experience. -

There’s stuff to do at 80. Problem for me, most of it is not the same as the rest of the game. So, while I got my way to 80 I was having a blast, loving every minute. Once I hit 80 I was standing there wondering what happened to the game.
Core issues, gold sinks and rewards that don’t scale, but costs do, hurt the ability to play at 80.

Let me explain best I can, it’s pre-coffee time though, so bear with me.

Pre-level 80 rewards in coin afforded me the ability to join hot linked events. You know the ones; Champion X has spawned and people need help. Way point is linked, people jump to it. Boss dead, rewards would more than pay off the cost of the way point. Drops have always been kitten, so coin and karma were the pay outs. Was fun, and I jumped to most of the events as often as I could. Loved it.

Post level 80, using a single way point IN the same zone costs more than an event pay out. So, throw out the hot linked event joining as doable content. Instead, I am left wandering around looking for “The Zerg” – which is about as exciting as watching paint dry. So many people vs the mobs make it epic easy mode vs all but the biggest of bosses… this actually reminds of The Lemmings… but I wont go there. hehe

Costs are prohibitive at 80 since the “goal” is and usually has always been in GW to get the Prestige armor (at least in PvE). These armor sets are priced so high that saving every copper becomes a must. This means avoiding hot linked events, skipping out on joining friends (way points cost too much, takes too long to run to them and then get back where I need to be for the rewards to pay a reasonable amount) and generally falling in line with The Zerg.
Add to this, Orr is the worst designed area in the game simply because of the Risen and how they were designed. The over speed, annoying design, spacing and over aggro range of the Risen just pull the entire zone into one big “Sigh”.

Put all these things together, toss in the anti-farming code and the “End Game” falls apart.

Lastly, here’s how dramatic the income disparity is at 80. I made more money playing my alt yesterday in lower levels than I did playing my 80 two days in a row. Because of the alt, I was able to afford another “prestige” piece of armor for my 80.

So, unless we play “Market Sim Wars” and not “Guild Wars 2” – at 80, money is very limited and makes fully enjoying the game a chore.

Anet really needs to take a look at scaling the rewards up or severely lowering waypoint costs. Running with a 25% speed boost still means I miss out on most of the events unless I’m in The Zerg.
At 80, the game IS different. It’s designed to be the same, but core mechanics make it work differently.

The WvW theme idea vs AI on Orr is kinda what I had expected from the details given about Orr pre-release. I mean, Tabula Rasa has such a system where Ai mobs would raid and take over outposts forcing players to team up, clear it out. So I kinda of expected it from the explanation.

Instead we got… well, Orr. blech.

We need a new level 80+ zone around Frostgorge or something*. Orr + Risen are just simply no fun at all.

*Speculation here; but if we talk to the guards blocking access to the Crystal Desert; he seems to hint at needing the Queens OK to enter, and that Dark Days have fallen there. Maybe that’s a hint of something new there? (Just hope it’s not more Risen)

Morgoth.4573:

What happened to me really happened! I didn’t dream it! I got double digits karma and xp and 6 copper…..

This was after doing events while exploring Blazeridge Steppes. That shouldnt be happening! I wasnt repeating the same DE’s either, in all cases only doing each DE once! How is this fair?!? I’m being penalised for playing normally :/

Similar thing happened to me yesterday on Orr of all places too. I was playing a good while on my mesmer (several hours, no issues). Jumped on my thief and pretty quickly my karma, coin and xp went into double digit range. I didn’t know anything about these diminishing returns either till I asked what was up in map.

I think it’s just a new system and a tad glitchy is all.

CaveSalamander.9150:

I’ve mostly seen only the higher leveled players talking about it since those guys only seem to be in Orr for some reason.. I guess it’s because you can’t get as much rewards or DEs from the lower level zones, not to mention the crafting mats.

Yeah, the scaling rewards don’t match the scaled costs (which scale to the player level not the zone). Orr rewards in Karma, Coin and Xp are higher per event than everywhere else. If we add in waypoint costs, and repairs for that “oops” moment, Orr is currently the only place one can see a semi-positive rate of return without playing the market simulator. It’s a balance thing I’m sure they will work out.

But the diminishing returns on events hit me by surprise. I thought that was what we were supposed to play around with.
It may also be a tad glitchy. I hadn’t seen it on my mesmer yet. Logged to the 80 thief and got it within about five events..? I dunno.

I had it hit me yesterday rather quickly. I hadn’t known it was even there. I thought I hit a bug and asked in Map about it. At first maybe I thought I just sucked at the event, but several people then spoke up and said I needed to log for about 30 minutes to reset some anti-farming code.

I found it odd as I was just roaming the zone hitting the Events as I found them so I could get my next piece of karma gear. /shrug

In any case, got about 53xp a few copper and about 20 something karma (I think that’s about what it was – I’ve slept since then so numbers are off a bit I’m sure)… and that was in Orr (where I loathe to be anyway). – So I just logged out and went to sleep.

Artorous.8573:

They don’t “punish” you for farming karma. They “punish” people for farming the same events over and over again. If you spread it out and run events in all of the 80 zones you wont notice any “punishment” at all, but if you stick with a group and run around doing the same events over and over again then you will. ANet want you to do all the available content they designed, not just a small portion. Generally, not accussing you, people who do stuff like that are the ones who come to the forums and say there isn’t enough content when there is plenty, most just want to skip it.

I agree here; but there’s also an issue with scaling that I think Anet needs to look at.

Ignoring Waypoint costs and potential repairs for that “oops” moment; Orr and Frostgorge Events reward ~300 – 350 karma per event. Other zones I’ve piddled about in ~220 – 250 karma per event. (for first event – after nerfing returns, this scales to “not worth my time”)

I feel they want us to move around and spread out, yet don’t “encourage” us to do so, rather “slap” us for going where the rewards are best.

Swagman.9013:

Yes Wasaguest, I understand your point more now but please do allow me, my fine fellow, to retort with a perspective of my own.

While I will admit those dungeon token gears are a bit of a grind, it is from my WoW eyes that I look upon them. I suppose I should not be so imposing as to assume others have had the same experience as I, although I do know some have had it worse.

The typical wow grind almost always involved more than 5 players, depending on the time, more than 30. Organizing these players was difficult enough but also competing against them for the gear, and a spot to participate, along with a rng loot system, coupled with week long lockouts made the acquisition of such gear take in some cases several months. And don’t like the way tier 1 looks? Well too bad you have to get it for the next tier.

And then you show me gw2 and say, well whatever set you want is available to you you’ll just have to amass about 1k of these tokens from the runs. Now I can achieve my goal at my own pace, marvelous!

I don’t disagree at all.
But that was never the theme of discussion… unless I missed it? hehe

It was about having to chase the “shiny” to stay interested. In which case, I was merely answering the topic and explaining best I could (from my point of view) without leading the conversation down the usually assumed “Gimme Now” call outs… which is not what I feel is good when some type of growth is always needed.

I think we agree pretty much. You feel there shouldn’t need to be a carrot. I agree. GW system of carrot is looks. Apply that to this topic, you and I will both keep playing probably long after we have gotten our “looks”. Whether it’s behind a wall of grind or far easier to get; either way it’s still the adventure, game play that we want to focus on.
The difference is (I think), I feel focused on getting that look before I get too much into the adventure.

Pravda.7641:

And for the future: Orr mobs. I get the feeling that when I get to Orr I’m going to want to punch puppies. Those mobs sound horrible.

lol – Orr is terrible. For being the “end game” zone; it’s dreadful. I loathe it. It’s not difficult. It’s not fun. It’s not even interesting. Why? Risen everywhere.

I played a bit this morning trying to get an “always bugged skill point” to clear it out. Teamed up with three others in the area. We seriously cleared a group of “never stop spawning Risen” that just wouldn’t ever stop. We finally kited them away. No one ever died, no one went into downed state… nothing. Just a constant stale mate vs the worst designed mobs I’ve ever seen. /punch_puppies_kittens_and_babies – then ran back to Frostgorge.

Fazhu.4519:

Or even if you don’t want to go for the long run, you could just make it so that it won’t appear in PvE maps at all. We only need those commanders in WvW (That is also questionable…) so why not just make it so that the icon only appear in WvW.

That works too; just in case someone forgets to turn it back on.

@Swagman – I guess I didn’t explain it too well. I’ll try this route:

“Shinnies” can be anything that improves a factor of one’s character within an RPG. Usually, “shinnies” are drops, loot, goodies, gear, toys, etc. However, “shinnies” can also mean that screen flash when one levels up. In other words, something that constantly shows growth.
Low Level caps are often frowned upon because it limits growth. GW1 fought against this stigma, and, if you ask me, broke it fairly well.
Gaining new skills can also be the “shinnies”.
And so on.

In GW2, the “Shinnies” are mainly for looks. That’s the goal. Get the good looking stuff. Once that goal is met, will people stop playing? No. And I’ll address that in a moment.

The example you use shows the power plateau I spoke of. In an electronic RPG (video game) there has to be a limit somewhere. In PnP, the DM can simply adjust the rules as he/she goes. That’s simply too difficult for a video game to do. Expansions may increase the level or they may not. What they will do, is always release new “shinnies” in one of the above listed rewards. It’s like when we were kids and finding that dime on the street. “Sweet! A coin.” or the Scritt “Ooooh! Shiny!” then runs off to get himself killed. >:)

One thing you said that stands out to me is this (and returning to “will people stop playing”):

“So when I finish my dungeon set I will happily run around doing and redoing…”

Here in lies the “grind” we are reading about so much (all over the forum and in game). It’s a self inflicted “grind” imposed by design. People want their “shinnies” so they can do exactly what you said you will happily do. Earn their armor and then get back to playing. Trouble is, that armor is behind massive amounts of grind and repetition. – I’ll stop there as it may derail if anyone assumes too much rather than take what I said at face value.

Agreed. I was actually about to start a suggestion on this. Grabbed a screenshot in LA this morning while I was trying to recall where the TP was at. The Commander icon was covering it. Seconds later, three more commanders entered the city and covered up the icons where they were at.

Very annoying.

Need option to hide.

@Swagman – an action based RPG without loot or “shinnies” can’t be and wont be considered an RPG unless the growth mechanic is simply tied to other factors. Removing the growth factor and we simply have an action title.
RPGs as a genre have character growth as a key focus. The characters grow either through stats or gear. Once the stats have maxed out, gear must be the focus.

It could then be a limitless growth system or one that plateaus out, but there must be growth to some point.

I’m with you to some degree. Give me the shinnies*, get it out of the way and let me just enjoy the ride. Champions Online does that to a really good point. Create the character I want, play through content, tweak stats and get loot that makes no visual difference on the character at all. As time progresses, unlock new character “costumes” where I am free to re-outfit and change looks at my leisure.
The Secret World (which I really like and am hoping it goes b2p or f2p) does this to a point as well. Create your character, buy clothes and play. As you go, pick up QL (quality level) drops that are like gaining levels – it’s a completely different system and I felt it works pretty well. – key thing though, there’s still growth.

*To clarify; I don’t mean hand them too me. Rather, don’t put them behind a mind numbing grind fest that turns me into a drooling mindless zombie. Let me run a dungeon through story and all paths via explorable and reward me with at least 75% of the dungeon set. Now I’ve tasted the carrot and will likely go back; and will return when guildies ask for help or it’s alt time.

[Stated as 100% my opinion – just want to make that clear up front]

The complaints are semi-valid for the most part, BUT ill worded.

I’ve hit 80. There’s a lot of stuff to do. Problem is, most of it is not fun or lacks a reason/point to do it. Now, let me explain my saying this.

It’s a mental thing. So, it wont change through debate. Up to 80, we always have something new popping up. New areas, new “shinnies”, new enemies, etc. At 80 this stops. And it stops suddenly.
I loved the journey. LOVED it. When I hit 80, I was suddenly put against the most boring, uninteresting foes (Risen) I’ve ever seen in a video game. And they are ALL over the place in Orr making the area irritating and annoying. So the End Game area is “bleh” at best.
Dungeons are a train wreck. Difficulty is way up there and yet, rewards are below what I would get in Queensdale Events. People say “l2p” – I can tell you, you will get cheesed in these dungeons now and then. A one shot ranged arrow or trap and down you go. It will happen. Repair costs then siphon most of the coin earned. – This is simply a balance issue with rewards; and surely Anet will address it. But until then, I see Dungeons as playgrounds for masochists.

Now, I could go back in lower level areas and check out the events again or just “have fun”. However, the rewards do not scale with the increased cost of way points. Costs me ~4s to use a way point to join friends in lower level areas. Drops and rewards from events still pay out copper. Takes a long time to then recoup the costs of joining friends. This artificially limits my time to areas where pay outs vs way points don’t siphon my cash. Again, this is a balance issue and am hoping Anet fixes the reward scaling so that 80’s can more freely travel the world and “play for fun”.

Anyway, don’t fret it. There’s lots to do, needs some tweaking and balancing is all. Lots of kinks and while the complaints we are reading are valid; they are mostly just not worded well.

The “ME” generation is an ill side effect of a corporate society, sadly. “Gotta get mine” and all that. Have to have something for my time. If it’s not 100% efficient it’s broken, etc etc.
We hear CEOs of large corporations whining all the time about the unfairness of the Market and so on. They are out to get theirs and that trickles down as people see that as how they achieve success. Makes me wanna slap em and say welcome to life… – but, back to RPGs and so on.

The carrot on a stick, however, didn’t start suddenly. It’s a core mechanic of the genre (RPGs) reaching back to PnP D&D. A good DM knew how to reward his/her players with XP and Loot balanced to the encounters. (think I may have said that earlier – I’ve slept since then)

To the topic question: Do I need loot (rewards) to keep playing? No. I do not need loot to keep playing. In fact, I would enjoy the game a lot more IF I could get the desired “look” of my character out of the way so that I could then get back to playing for fun vs playing to “get mine”. – Hope that makes since.

PS. @Craven – Haunted House was a great game – Atari 2600 times. \o/

Deith.7596:

Orr, all of it. I hate it.

^^ This. Can’t stand Orr because of the Risen. Most annoying, uninteresting foes I’ve ever seen in any game.

These things do not invoke dread, fear, worry or concern from me. They invoke a weary sigh of “really again?”… and this is over and over and over and over and… /bored

Tradewind.6913:

Waypoints are an optional expense, I agree that if they are your primary mode of transit in gw2 you will find yourself very poor quickly. That being said gold is not hard to come by and even downscaled mobs have a chance to drop level appropriate gear worth more. Waypoints are also free in dungeons so I’m not entirely sure what you’re meaning on the dungeon waypoints thing.

I’m not attacking, just discussing. It should also be clear at 80 that gold is one of the limitations in this game, but it’s also not hard to make gold if you put the time into it.

I wish I could agree. My experience has been the opposite though. I may be missing something easy? I gather everything I see. Sell it on the TP. Salvage whites, merch blue and greens. Sell yellow and oranges on TP.
Problem is, I barely break even IF I try to join friends in places.
Low level drops are never scaled to my level unless in a dungeon. In which case it was merch trash worth nothing. Should I bug report this? Would seem silly to submit a bug report though on the basis of forum chatter though.

So I have to hold on to the idea that scaling needs to be looked at in terms of rewards.

As I had mentioned earlier, if the idea is to have players spread out more; then it needs to be made viable. I don’t want to farm or grind. I would much rather return to Queensdale or Harathi than spend another minute in Orr. However, until those areas net me equal rewards for my time, it’s not worth my time to do so; and after some time, I wont be able to afford it either.