The amount of insta-gib skills in this game turning it into a huge “run around like headless chicken and dodge, dodge, dodge”-fest is actually one of my bigger gripes with GW2, but it’s so omnipresent that you really have to either swallow it or find another game.
You only run around like a headless chicken if you don’t know what you’re doing. Like all those people at Dwyna getting hit by the blue flames despite it being a blatantly obvious telegraph even through all the particle effects.
The fights are mostly rather easy to see through in this game. Every 1HKO or massively damaging attack pretty much screams ‘DODGEEEE’ before they hit you. Plus, the dodging in this game is very very forgiving in terms of timing.
Maybe its because I’ve played a lot of action MMOs so dodging is pretty much second nature to me.
If you ever played vanilla Vindictus, boy, that’s what you call punishing.
2/2
It’s time to make MMORPGs more social
Guild Wars 2 is NOT more social. Infact, if anything, GW2 is a very anti-social game. Social interactions in games spring up from necessity, forced or accidental. In GW1, this was obviously facilitated by the need to use a party to complete 99% of the game’s PVE content. And really difficult content (Urgoz’ Warren or the Deep at Factions’ launch come to mind) absolutely required a good team (usually guild members) who could strategize and communicate. You practically needed to join a good guild to have any chance at most PVP as well. But, in GW2, there’s no reason to get to know who you’re partying up with. As long as you have zerker gear and know the path, why bother? And since any combination of classes can clear content (although some combinations are much better at it than others) there’s little reason to stand out or learn which individuals are good at their class on your server. It almost feels like queueing up for a heroics run in WoW.
.
That’s not making a game social. What you just described is actually what makes MMOs ironically such an anti-social genre.
Players just find an exclusive group which they do content with, then that’s it. You don’t meet new people, you don’t want to meet new people because it takes too long to teach them the content and their class may not fit in your group.
That’s what makes newbies feel like they’re that kid who gets picked last in football or the new guy who has no friends.
Why would you need to be only in 1 guild? There’s guild alliances in other MMOs which are basically the same as joining different guilds.
Some of the best convos I’ve had with people in this game are in PUGs. We once did a fractal run which lasted 4 HOURS. Seriously, 4 hours. The group was that bad, but it was 4 hours of my life which I’d gladly waste again because it was great, we joked about it, we laughed and we RPed all the way through.
The only reason which people don’t get to know each other is because they don’t want to.
“So you’d finish an expansion in a month and not have anything to do for the rest of the year? Probably not going to be any better for you.”
This doesn’t seem to hold true in most cases. It took me nearly a year to get bored and or complete most of the current content without living story stuff.
Of course this adds things in like wvw and spvp which with an expansion wouldn’t hold a ton of new value for me. But a real fully fleshed out expansion generally gives a player like me months of new content.
I am sorry but LS just doesn’t do it for me sadly. I want it to work but the story is moving at a snails pace and the content is really just grabbing AP. In game rewards are getting better but are still fairly minimal. There isn’t much to earn or progress your character.
For the record I am not looking forward to any of the new MMOs coming out. I’ve played the 2 big ones announced and both are fairly lacking (opinion), I am not interested in going back to wow ever. EQN will be released when? We don’t know yet and I still am not even close to sold on that game. This is the game I like and want to continue to play, I am just feeling a little stagnant as of late.
Expansions are rarely as large or has as much longevity as the original game itself.
GW2 took 5 years to produce. Of course, some of those 5 years will be used to create the engine, learn how to sue it, etc etc, but an expansion will not see as much content as the original because they won’t have enough time to do it.
Its a story…. whats the alternative…. Scarlet wins, Krait and Nightmare court turn out to be unbeatable, nightmare tower here to stay cause players cant do anything about it?
Tower is indestructible/potentially too dangerous to be destroyed. Scarlet dies, Toxic Alliance decides to stay together under new leadership. There are really a lot of ways you can go.
wouldnt that mean we cannot win? All Scarlet has to do is stay out of sight let Krait and Nightmare court do their thing. Eventually the spores would spread the whole of Tyria goes mad . I personally would rather we blow it up to pieces then have it available through the mists as a sort of historical event.
It doesn’t mean they win either. They could be pushed to a stalemate and stay as a lingering enemy.
Look at the Risen. We killed Zhaitan, we cleansed Orr. They;re still around.
Look at the Flame Legion. We killed Baelfire, we killed him again when they tried to raise him form the dead. We killed their new tribune as well. And the Citadel of Flames is still there.
We don’t need to blow everything up.
Its often used as an opener to another attack.
For example, on a GS guardian, I often pull mobs together and blind them so I can WW without taking any damage.
You get 1 rare, a few pieces of junk, and up to 15 dragonite ore from the chest, along with chances at better stuff.
Thats not bad.
Shadow Behemoth drops Spirit Links and Final Rest
Jormag drops Breath of Jormag
And Aetherrised Nightmare stuff are only obtainable from TA Aetherpath as random drops.
We got them but just not many of them.
The reason why it puts you in combat us do that if there is an enemy down there, it can ambush you and potentially kill you.
Otherwise any fall damage other than a 1hko would be utterly pointless because yiu would just heal it back up immediately.
If anyone of you watched Sword Arts Online (anime), Then you will see the resemblance of a tower with levels to clear. I am so excited as for how people interact with the nightmare tower. Huge zerk on lower levels of the tower, and then you begin to split up as you progress tower floors, just like SAO. AWESOME JOB AREANET! Love this game and the anime, best of both worlds haha.
It isn’t even remotely similar.
In Sword Art Online, there is a big reward for completion, and the actual game is well designed and allows for player skill (the combat that the players experience is a cross between a game like Bayonetta and Street Fighter) and item selection to carry the day (see the character who is nearly invincible because he put defense and regen on his gear).
GW2 is all about rockemsockem robots.
And Sword Art Online just copied the tower idea from the .Hack series.
If by well-designed you meant that there’s basically no plot progression in the game itself, both character races AND professions are imbalanced to oblivion, and combat strategy consists of choose Warrior, bring big sword, use super move and win.
…that sounds like what GW2 is at the moment but worse.
^ the final chamber.
She does seem awfully out if character for the entire thing though. Seemed rather hateful and angry, which isn’t like her.
Apparently our male characters has a thing for Logan. I don’t even.
i thought to myself, the writers must have a bloody good reason to making the xenophobic krait side with the nightmare court, but they didnt, never would they taint them selves or side with another race, even to re-incarnate a prophet, they arent stupid, the krait are a very intelligent race and theyre making it out like theyre morons being manipulated -_- way to go for obliterating gw1 lore and my favourite race ty anet
I would imagine the Krait would side with the Nightmare Court for that. They’ve been waiting for their prophet to return for goodness knows how long, and I’m sure a lot of them wouldve started to doubt if their prophet was even real.
So after being beaten and relegated to whats pretty much a lesser race, if someone comes along and gives them a very conceivable possibility that they can bring their prophet back, they probably would take the bait.
What’s interesting though is that they really thought their prophet has returned and they’ll finally rule supreme under him. And then you cane along and shatterered their hopes and killed their ‘prophet’ in front of their eyes. Wonder how they’re going to react to that. Angry? Or just deem that prophet as false?
(edited by Xae Isareth.1364)
No, got Logan on my male Guardian. You can imagine what I refused think when that happened.
I got a feeling she was talking to Kasmeer or Majory though.
It was implied that Scarlet can influence which hallucibations show up inside your head. Some of the things she says didn’t make sense at all, like how she talks about that you’re jealous that Logan loves Jennah more than you (unless she was taking to Kasmeer or Majory, I don’t know their backstories since I missed a few LS updates do I do t have a clue what was happening with them).
This is basically the mentality the general playerbase have adopted. Getting a full Zerker build and expecting it to work for everything.
Then Anet starts to develop content which makes you use other builds and people thing they got a curveball thrown at them.
There’s a time and a place for everything. It’s like taking a water type Pokemon up against a whole team if electric types and asking if Nintendo hates water types.
The gane is working as intended, you need to adjust your build to the situation at hand.
The fight itself is fine as it is. It’s kind of GW2 equivalent to a raid (even if it wasnt intended to be). Only a small proportion of players raid in any game, as intended (again, even if not by design in this case).
What they need to do is acknowledge that this is really content for organised battalions and not random PUGs, and just make it an instancrd guild mission which can be set up by a guild so people can schedule and prepare for it.
The problem is that there’s no reward incentive up go back to those maps or do DEs in general. Karma has very little use to the average player and if you wanted to farm karma, you would just join a champ train in Queens or FGS.
The large number of event-doers you saw at launch was due to that it was a new game so everyone was at the same stage of levelling, and no one established things like champ trains.
I can confirm Im having the exact same problem, right after the new patch came about.
Kormir didn’t steal anything from you, she was the one who was able to absorb abaddons power, not you.
She was gifted that from the gods in the Realm of Torment. So how did Kormir get from her cell in Gandara all the way to the Realm of Torment and past Shiro and the Lich? She didn’t.
The player freed her from her cell. The player chased down and defeated Varesh. The player escorted her all through the Realm of Torment. The player defeated Shiro and the Lich (for the second time) and the player was the one that took down the god who’s powers she took. So what did Kormir do? She lead the Sunspears to slaughter, got captured, needed to be rescued then watched as we did all the work from that point on only to be conveniently handed the gift from the gods. I get it’s a game and I get that players should do the work, I also get that it wouldn’t make sense for the players to become a god. I’m not going to pretend Kormir deserved what she got.
As soon as she became a god, all six of them went on an indefinite hiatus, coincidentally coinciding with Tyria’s greatest time of need. Apparently her uselessness is contagious and she infected the other five gods.
She is basically GW1’s Trahearne.
You don’t pay attention to lore or story much, do you?
Are you talking about the LS having him as a hallucination or Kormir’s story from GW1?
Best part of this update. I finally get to beat the &*$£ out of him.
Now lets see Kormir as a boss as well, so I can take my vengeance on her for stealing my god powers.
(edited by Xae Isareth.1364)
To me, it was more like that really old game Azure Blue.
Did you mean Azure Dreams?! That was an amazing game!!!
That was it! I still don;t get who came up with the idea of having the main character’s father’s partner becoming the main antagonist’s arm though. Was like wat.
anything to lessen my chance of dredge is fine by me
To be replaced by a full run of Aetherblade Retreat?
I sincerely hope you get something special for doing MF or AR, because they;re harder than all existing fractals.
To me, it was more like that really old game Azure Blue.
Hey! The sheep insults are my thing! No touchie!
Back on topic, in regards to the Zelda franchise… you very well might be a sheep Xae. It depends on whether you’re a mindless follower or not. Would you completely flip out if they created another Zelda, but it wasn’t completely the same as every other Zelda game out there? If they tried expanding upon the tried and true, rather than walking a narrow well trodden path?
While the phrase ‘if it’s not broke don’t fix it’ is an apt one, we forget that "same ol’ same ol’ " gets very boring. We fall into a rut and then wonder why we can’t find anything enjoyable. We need to sometimes break out of that rut and ‘take the path least taken’ to find something new, something exciting, rather than simply accepting the tried and true and giving it a new paint job. I do applaud Anet for attempting to not necessarily take the path of least resistance when it comes to GW2. They are willing to try new things, expand beyond the ‘comfort zone’ of normal MMOs and run with their ideas. Does it always work out? Nope, they sure get a lot of flack for it, but hey… fortune favors the bold.
If they made Zelda Monster Truck Simulator, yes, I would flip out.
You can try things, but of there’s something there already which works, you may as well give them it first to keep people satisfied then try other things. Its not like the only thing you can work on is raids.
Trying out new things has many consequences. so you need some of the true and tested stuff in there to keep people satisfied.
Going back to Zelda. Looking at the first game compared to Skyward Sword, theres a ton of differences. If you look at how it got there, it wasn’t Nintendo suddenly going ‘dude! we’re gonna change everyyyythingggg!’ (well, they did for Zelda 2 but we all know how well that went), ot was changing small things a bit at a time to find what works whilst keeping the tried and true stuff in there to make sure people don’t bail.
Ok “Zelda Monster Truck Simulator” would be extreme even by my standards. I was thinking something more along the lines from traditional Mario to Mario Kart. Same franchise, totally different… equally enjoyable.
Anet did not toss all of the tried and true out the window. They upgraded some things, but the core ideas are still there:
Quests -> Hearts and DE’s.
Dungeons -> 5 man just like WoW, but no trinity.
Missions -> Personal Story.They gave us crafting like other games have, but they tweaked it so that gathering isn’t [its] own profession, and we don’t have to fight each other over gathering nodes. They made making multiples of the same thing not take ages, and we can help level our characters with it, but it’s core is still pretty much the same thing you’d find in most other games.
They are striving to do something different. They don’t want to just hand us instanced raids like every other game. They don’t want to do player housing, or guilds, like every other game. (Just to name a couple) Will it be absolutely totally, radically different? Not necessarily. The core, basic ideas will be there. They just want to give it a little “twist” to make it unique, which I like.
Mario to Mario Kart/Golf/Tennis/Soccer was ok, it was a spinoff, and they were decent games. I was thinking along the lines of Banjo Kazooie Nuts and Bolts kind of a transition, where you pretty much strip out everything which made the game what it was and just throw something at it which you’ve no idea if i would appeal to the audience.
I’m cool with what Anet did with GW2 mostly, but the most I was trying to make was that why not add in raiding? It works, theres demand for it, so, you may as well make one to keep players happy until you find what else works as well.
The LS was something I’m not very happy with though. Its something completely new to a game this size. RuneScape did it but that game is a lot less complex to update I would imagine. So they basically took the biggest area of a game which keeps people playing, the updates, and tried to do something completely untested and new with it.
That risk is massive, and lo and behold, they screwed it up and now theres a ton of dissatisfied players. I’m not saying I’m right, but personally I would’ve worked on DLCs for the main bulk of the content and bring out smaller patches in between DLC releases until I found out what works for the smaller releases.
That way I can still claim the game regularly updates, whilst avoiding putting all my eggs in one basket.
Agreed. The last slide actually made her seem menacing for a split second.
They should’ve been after us for taking the water orb way back in the personal story, yet they let that slide easily, so I doubt it.
And yes, that’s it. The invasive weed once again just being annoying, and trying to make us care that she exists.
The thing is, what was she actually doing?
She just goes ‘well, I’m done here!’ after getting 2 races together to build a huge tower in the middle of Kessex kills, leaving you to just go and wreck it.
The problem is that she isn’t like the Joker, where you’re left guessing what the heck is he up to now. The player is just left wondering if she had any motives to begin with.
The boss needs to be harder though. I just sat there and facetanked him to 0 HP whilst poping heals and prots when nessecary.
The only thing I’m kinda wondering out of this though, without saying any spoilers, won’t the Krait be after your butt for what you did?
They were already after your butt long before this update came out.
You just did probably the worst possible thing you could do against them from their eyes.
What you did just made you public enemy number 1 to them really.
She gets info about updates directly from Anet often I think.
I soloed the whole thing with my Guardian and got the pet from the achievement solo. Just grab some PVT gear.
i hate the argument about no core updates… play the game in 2 weeks you wont wanna see the tower so whats it matter when its gone
That’s the problem.
They;re coming out with all these trivial updates which no one cares about after a week. FotM was made a year ago, everyone still runs it daily. That’s what you call a core update.
The only thing I’m kinda wondering out of this though, without saying any spoilers, won’t the Krait be after your butt for what you did?
The release page said content is available until the heart of the tower is destroyed. Does this mean that the the tower is temporary?
As in, it gets destroyed, leaving no trace of it left and theres no core content additions that comes out of these updates?
Hey! The sheep insults are my thing! No touchie!
Back on topic, in regards to the Zelda franchise… you very well might be a sheep Xae. It depends on whether you’re a mindless follower or not. Would you completely flip out if they created another Zelda, but it wasn’t completely the same as every other Zelda game out there? If they tried expanding upon the tried and true, rather than walking a narrow well trodden path?
While the phrase ‘if it’s not broke don’t fix it’ is an apt one, we forget that "same ol’ same ol’ " gets very boring. We fall into a rut and then wonder why we can’t find anything enjoyable. We need to sometimes break out of that rut and ‘take the path least taken’ to find something new, something exciting, rather than simply accepting the tried and true and giving it a new paint job. I do applaud Anet for attempting to not necessarily take the path of least resistance when it comes to GW2. They are willing to try new things, expand beyond the ‘comfort zone’ of normal MMOs and run with their ideas. Does it always work out? Nope, they sure get a lot of flack for it, but hey… fortune favors the bold.
If they made Zelda Monster Truck Simulator, yes, I would flip out.
You can try things, but of there’s something there already which works, you may as well give them it first to keep people satisfied then try other things. Its not like the only thing you can work on is raids.
Trying out new things has many consequences. so you need some of the true and tested stuff in there to keep people satisfied.
Going back to Zelda. Looking at the first game compared to Skyward Sword, theres a ton of differences. If you look at how it got there, it wasn’t Nintendo suddenly going ‘dude! we’re gonna change everyyyythingggg!’ (well, they did for Zelda 2 but we all know how well that went), ot was changing small things a bit at a time to find what works whilst keeping the tried and true stuff in there to make sure people don’t bail.
snipped because message was too long to post.
I dunno, I’m developer by trade (ecomm rather than gaming, banks before that…you have bugs in either of those and someone’s likely to get fired due to money issues and legal issues, have been involved in 13 of the top 30 grossing ecomm sites in my country) and the project/account managers don’t tell the client’s any dates or estimates until it’s guaranteed to be out by that time (often this involves breaking down big tasks into tiny tasks by someone very familiar with the system), as dev’s we don’t tell the project/account managers estimates or dates until we can guarantee it’ll be out by that time…because if we did and continually failed to deliver it would be what the company is known for and that’s a reputation you don’t lose, clients don’t ever forget and they will talk like crazy with anyone that will listen.
Microsoft get away with it because effectively they have a monopoly, OS and Linux don’t and won’t ever hold a big enough share of the market for MS to worry about quality because they know people are going to buy it (kind of like apple knowing people are just going to buy iphone’s…even though very little changes between versions)
You missed the point though, Anet can say things, things they know will be delivered while still holding back on things they aren’t sure about yet rather than blurting out everything in one go and then ultimately failing. They could be having a continual stream of info rather than a giant info dump that ultimately they can’t deliver. At the moment, the LS updates are on a 4 month dev cycle (4 teams, each doing 1 month of content every 4 months) there’s a lot of time in there for them to know what is and isn’t going to happen INTERNALLY before releasing what is going to happen to us.
The gaming industry is different. You absolutely need to tell players when things are coming all the time because otherwise they’ll lose interest. Players want to know things are happening and that the game is going to grow. They want to know they won’t get bored of the game.
Anet was bashed constantly for making too many replies of ’we’re thinking about it’ or ’we’re working on it’.
Ranged needs far more ways to keep melee from closing. The biggest problem with ranged is that melee doesn’t take enough damage before they can close.
In most systems, melee wouldn’t have more than 50% of health by the time they closed BUT that makes it a fair fight as they are more powerful when that happens.
In short, balance should be based on what percentage of a melee character’s health has to be reduced for the ranged character to win 50/50 of fights once the melee character closes the gap. We are not even close.
One of the big problems is there is not enough CC to stop the melee character dead in their tracks or cripple their movement in a way that they have to rely on another class (not themselves) to clear it.
There really is no rock-paper-scissors element to this game which is one of the biggest challenges. Range and stealth own magic. Magic owns armor. Armor owns range and stealth. Each class is even against other members of its grouping. You have a bag of tricks CC class.
You need to look at it beyond a 1v1 PoV.
If you look at WvW, in a large-scale fight ranged characters have a huge advantage on being able to manage the situation better. The massive AoE spam alone gives meleers a hard time getting close to the enemy.
I want to say that I read somewhere that some people at anet were working on capes in their spare time, but I’m not entirely sure, and also too lazy to look it up.
It would be very complicated to make. Just think of what happens to stuff on your back.
The cape would have to flutter in such a way that it takes into account of GSs, staves etc when you run around.
snip
This argument of ‘not many people get to raids so it isn’t needed’ has been addressed a lot of times. Raids are like the final boss in a game, you know its there, and you know its awesome and it becomes something you aspire to do one day. Its the ultimate challenge, or even a rite of passage for some people. Anyone can tell you of the feeling you get when you first conquer a raid.
It doesn’t matter if you don’t get to do it ever. Its a goal and a dream for many. Its something which drives people to become stronger.
Of course, there’s many people like you who aren’t interested in raiding. Its like how there’s a lot of people who prefer sandbox games than games with a structure and a final boss. But theres a lot of people who like the latter, that’s why Mario is still fighting Bowser, and Link fighting the latest incarnation of Gannon.
UO and EQ1 were not niche games. Some even say that UO was the first ever MMORPG. The MMO genre was the thing that was niche back then.
Vanilla WoW was not casual friendly. It took weeks and weeks to get to max level back then and getting BiS gear was a very respectable achievement, and boy you had to work for it. It became more and more casual friendly as time went on to accommodate to the changing MMO market.
I’ve never said raids should be the only endgame. My argument is that they work as ‘endgame’ content. WoW probably did define what endgame content is for MMOs, but it was successful, it worked and players enjoyed it. If it works, why not use it?
Also, I don’t think you can just call everyone sheep. I enjoy Zelda games. I’ve been playing them since the Gameboy Color. I would go ‘make a new Zelda game!’ if Nintendo ever asked what people would want along with the million other people who would say the same. Am I sheep?
[quote=3188735;Vayne.8563:]
Flying mounts will never happen simply because the way the world and zones are created the truth of the matter is the height of the maps is VERY limited. I mean if you played Perfectworld you would know what I mean because this game has something like 10% of the height you can get there!
No flying mounts was a design decision. Exploration wouldn’t work with it. For a start, what would be the point of vistas if I can just fly unto them?
1) Very much doubt it, and its actually detrimental to the game. 5 races is plenty to choose from already and having a new one would slow down the rate new armor comes out even more. Also, any chances of future storylines being unique to your race would look more unlikely if we get more races.
2) Probably. They didn’t mark out all those places on the map for no reason.
3) I don’t really see the point of that at the moment. As people have said before, existing classes are both incomplete and often lackluster. We have such a small number of skills to choose from I would think it would be much more beneficial for them to focus effort on making new skills and weapons for each class rather than making a new class altogether. This is the only game I’ve played where you can’t change your weapon skills.
Also, classes like the Guardian are rather bland. Their class mechanic is basically just 3 extra sigils with mediocre effects and long cooldowns (unless traited). Stuff like this needs work on.
They need to fix whats broken before making more stuff.
Then can you honestly expect that player to know the first thing about how to actually play their chosen class when they get their first character or for that matter ANY character to level 80, and proceed to leave the confines of the crafting district in whatever their starting city was and attempt to join a Fractals Run or whatever the End Game Content of choice that they choose to undertake happens to be?
Why not? The professions aren’t that hard to get a basic handle on, and story dungeons/the early levels of fractals are cake. You can’t go 15 minutes in LA without a guild invite, so they can even cut their teeth with guildmates.
It really depends on how good you are at games. It took me a while to get my footing with new classes because it takes me a while to experiment with different builds and skill setups until I find the ones which suit my style.
What I wonder is what makes guesting technically different to transferring though.
I don;t see the point of making Tengus playable. It would do more harm than good.
5 distinct races (ie, not humans, midget humans, humans with long ears and humans with green skins) is quite enough of a choice already and making a race which looks completely different to other races as models would just make making armor even more troublesome than it is already.
It’ll be doing fine in a year or two as well.
Oh Vayne, you and your infallible factoids.
What i find humorous is a year or two isn’t very long in mmo terms..
GW2 will definitely be around in 2 years time, it be too much of a loss to just shut down a game which took astronomical sums to make that quickly.
In what form it would exist is another question though. It could end up going F2P or becoming a game which is very rarely updated, like how TERA is turning out to be.
and also, i’d like to point out that they do, in fact, have lives outside of work :o and they can’t always be doing “this and that and fixing these bugs and glitches and nerfing X class because they’re too strong and buffing/reworking other classes’ skills and adding new content etc…” you get my point? though it would be nice to have some of those things they said would get to, but that was more of an estimate of what they wanted to do. And LS content takes up a lot of their time too…
If something needs to be urgently done, or would be prefered over the LS, time and resources should be reallocated to make it happen. There’s no point to piling more pepperonis onto a pizza if the dough went off in the first place.
The problem I see with why most elite skills are useless is twofold.
1. Half of them are racial. The design philosophy was that your race is more or less for RP and for cosmetics. Introducing specific skills to each race which only that race can have was kind of contradictive to this in the first place so we ended up with half-hearted elites.
2. The game was designed to be an eSport. This probably had an influence on how powerful elites were allowed to be and the fact that PvP and PvE is balanced imder one umbrella meant we got pretty mediocre elites as having an elite wrecking enemies or turning allies into wrecking balls is fine in PvE can you can balance PvE around that, but in PvP, that’d wreck the game.