There’s an aweful lot of text which breaks up the flow of the video, personally I think these kinds of guides are better with audio descriptions rather than walls of text plastered all over the video. A great example of this is where you advise about stow weapon to counter ID.
There’s a lot of good advise there however as I said it would be much better if what was typed was said instead.
The reality is that mes has one of the lowest burst with sustain out of the all the classes. The base philosophy of Mes is that we give up crit chance and power because we have illusions and phants, in many respects it is an old school class where if you want high burst you are likely going to have a glass build. Some other classes can have very high burst and sustain at the same time.
Mesmers are, however, very mobile with traited 25% movement speed buff, Blink, and Signet of Inspiration swiftness (though still not as mobile as a thief), and they are the only class that can teleport your entire team from one point to another via Portal.
Don’t know anyone who would run signet of inspiration in PvP except 1 person with their support build, can’t remember her name but I’m sure she’ll pop up at some point.
Portal is as good as the team that uses it, in pro league and other tournaments you see some amazing portal plays, same in WvW but when your team doesn’t have team speak usually it sucks.
Mesmer is 1 nerf away from being a very bad pick to play in ranked, I certainly would take a warrior, dragon hunter, engy and druid over a mesmer. The only classes I get worried about seeing in ranked is thief, mesmer and some revenants though I’m usually support ele so I keep the rev up and he keeps the enemy down.
the kitten does it matter? unless anet starts handing out heroic badges to servers on victories even the winner doesnt get even a participation trophy.
What determines match ups and your servers “strength”?
Glicko.
What affects Glicko?
Points gained and score difference.
So for the uneducated out there, a 2-1-1 system will rank 3rd and 2nd place servers closer together even if the reality is the 3rd place server is woefully undermanned to fight either. Instead of going down and fighting servers they should or the stronger one’s going up we end up with more and more blow out matches as score deviation is much smaller.
This is why people talk about PPT and don’t neglect it unless you’re a server hopper in which case all servers are disposable to you.
You’d need to completely rework sceptre and/or dagger offhand or possibly restrict amulets based on class.
You can’t buff dagger mainhand or focus offhand or you make menders ele stronger, you could adjust utility cool downs to be lower like 50s mistform, arcane shield on 30s is nice but mismatched in traits.
To be honest I think the best thing is rework sceptre completely and then reduce RtL cool down to 20s, reduce a few offhand dagger cool downs too in air, water and earth.
Rating deviation will no longer increase in future season to stop situations like this.
you need to do somethign about the current season. Some peope exploited the decay and others got a couple lucky wins and ended up at 200+ higher MMR than where they belong. leaderboard dosent mean anything until thhis is fixed for THE CURRENT SEASON
Sorry but I would take a well executed and tested patch over something which won’t be properly tested and may completely destroy the leaderboard. It’s 6 days left, there isn’t enough time to exploit that much anymore and if good players want to make a stand against the exploiters they can and wreck the exploiters rating. It’s high risk, high reward.
Just wanted to say thank you to Helseth, Sindrener, all the admins, mods and other people that helped make the tournament a reality including donors. Some games were very close with clutch plays deciding the match with it coming down to time but not for S1 bunker meta reasons. It was great to see up and coming PvP players play against people on thier level with having people that have been in a championship taken out so as to not skew games and the final.
Finally a big thank you to ANet for putting up the gems and other prizes for people participating.
8 hours of PvP and banter, not a bad Sunday afternoon/evening.
I’ve fought Seven once on my mesmer and without dedicating specifically to counter his build he can generally cleave out clones pretty easy so he has a better matchup vs mesmer and probably thief due to AoE damage. I believe we were both core as I don’t think you should really duel elite spec vs core as it’s not exactly fair.
The thing is these builds don’t scale great when you are outnumbered and ele without some kind of immunity like mistform is very easy to focus from a few people and kill. To be a good dueler though you need to have a very good grasp of other classes so you know what to avoid and what you have that counters them.
There’s also the unfortunate aspect that some fights you will not be able to win as it’s stacked against you more than your skill will allow you to offset. For ele corruptions and heavy condition classes will win 9/10 against you, you might also have a bit of trouble vs guardian as they can have prolonged periods of safety to attack you with while having both ranged and melee damage so kiting them out can be difficult.
Warriors are usually melee so you can safely kite out endure pain and then the fight becomes more on par for DD ele.
Make arcane thievery hit most of the time and reduce its cool down to 30s, currently it is still hit and miss, mostly miss I found tbh. 30s base cool down makes it a great boon hate and cleanse option while traiting brings it down to 24s instead of 28s so can justify chaos line in a power build.
Disenchanter if running illusions and chronophantasma is a decent cleanse but suffers from all phantasm mechanics. That is that it misses a lot and has a lot of randomness, it also scales very poorly as numbers increase so isn’t great outside of dueling.
To be honest it would be nice if it was a clone skill class, 20s CD and removes a condition and boon for each clone up in the world, 600 range 5 enemies and 5 allies. It has the capacity to be better than arcane thievery or a lot worse. That is however what I might be tempted to do if getting rid of phantasms as I keep saying needs to happen.
Between these and well of eternity you can get decent condition cleanse in a power build though traiting inspiration is just so much nicer tbh.
If you ignore the phantasm part entirely, and I mean pretend like it doesnt exist, iDisenchanter is a better cleanse than Arcane Thievery if you’re traiting the Illusions line anyway. Mechanically it works way better on a far lower CD (is it 16s? plus reduction if you’ve got reduction per phant shattered traited).
If AC was brought down to the level of iDisenchanter’s CD and casting effectiveness, then and only then would it compete. As is iDisenchanter is the superior pick.
20s base and 16s traited and yeah I know it’s better if you ignore the phantasm aspect but that’s like calling trump an excellent businessman if you ignore all the bankruptcy and hatred he has.
It’s a pretty big thing to ignore tbh that it’s an object in the game world that can be killed as quick as any clone especially in WvW. The problem with making AC something like 20s is that it’s actually a really strong skill if it hits sending 3 conditions to the enemy and stealing 3 boons, it’s a big swing.
Make arcane thievery hit most of the time and reduce its cool down to 30s, currently it is still hit and miss, mostly miss I found tbh. 30s base cool down makes it a great boon hate and cleanse option while traiting brings it down to 24s instead of 28s so can justify chaos line in a power build.
Disenchanter if running illusions and chronophantasma is a decent cleanse but suffers from all phantasm mechanics. That is that it misses a lot and has a lot of randomness, it also scales very poorly as numbers increase so isn’t great outside of dueling.
To be honest it would be nice if it was a clone skill class, 20s CD and removes a condition and boon for each clone up in the world, 600 range 5 enemies and 5 allies. It has the capacity to be better than arcane thievery or a lot worse. That is however what I might be tempted to do if getting rid of phantasms as I keep saying needs to happen.
Between these and well of eternity you can get decent condition cleanse in a power build though traiting inspiration is just so much nicer tbh.
(edited by apharma.3741)
Lol
Primal bursts count as level 2 burst skills – PvP and WvW only
2-1-1 is bad and Anet should feel bad. Its a good thing theyre changing it, the sooner the better. If you are the worst server out of the 3, there is no way you can win because you’ll only get 1 point even if you place second * every single * skirmish. It’s no fun at all.
If you’re the worst server out of the 3 you aren’t going to win anyway…..
On the 3-2-1 system reliably coming 2nd by not coming 3rd could make for a close match up towards the end, now if you reliably come 2nd you will reliably come last in the match up and it no longer becomes close.
This 2-1-1 system is stupid and shouldn’t have been brought in at all.
That’s changed how a lot of people play. Instead of focusing on keeping the weakest server down the second place server has to go after the first place server in order to win some skirmishes. Maybe it hasn’t been working out well for your server but it’s made a lot of match ups much more interesting across several tiers in NA.
Now if they would just fix the boring combat…..
It’s not just my server, every single match up I’ve been in the strongest server has targeted the weakest first.
Last week we had Kodash vs Aurora Glade vs Elona Reach and Elona was the absolute weakest with practically no presence outside of one blob map hoping. Kodash was stronger than both our servers combined running what must have been a 70 strong map blob in EB with at least 50-70 on our own border while simultaneously taking all of Elona border.
Who did Kodash go for first? Whoever was weakest at the time and this is a pattern we’ve seen since 2-1-1 has come into being.
As for your other comment it isn’t keeping g fair weather players in for a few reasons.
1. Most of them don’t understand the scoring still.
2. The scores still show a very big loss on the skirmish with one server having almost double the other two at most times.
3. As soon as they get zerged down by a massive map blob for the 3rd time with the outnumbered buff on EB they still leave.
Except this is driving long term players out of the game too, no point playing if you’re coming 3rd or 2nd all the time as it makes no difference.
2-1-1 is bad and Anet should feel bad. Its a good thing theyre changing it, the sooner the better. If you are the worst server out of the 3, there is no way you can win because you’ll only get 1 point even if you place second * every single * skirmish. It’s no fun at all.
If you’re the worst server out of the 3 you aren’t going to win anyway…..
On the 3-2-1 system reliably coming 2nd by not coming 3rd could make for a close match up towards the end, now if you reliably come 2nd you will reliably come last in the match up and it no longer becomes close.
This 2-1-1 system is stupid and shouldn’t have been brought in at all.
I don’t like 2-1-1 because it leads to extremely false Glicko scores. Games look closer but the reality is (at least for me in EU) we are getting some pretty big blow out matches.
Say server 1 wins 60% of the time, server 2 wins 40% of the time and server 3 is getting karma trained all day and night winning none of them. While the difference between the scores won’t look much with server 3 clearly in last place it doesn’t reflect how the match up really was which is total domination during daytime by server 1, night kappas and early morning karma train for server 2 and whipping boy for server 3.
That type of match up wasn’t fun for server 3 either as both bigfer servers go for the weakest in an effort to protect their stuff and get points from the weaker server. You then end up with people on server 3 leaving WvW for the rest of the match up.
This scoring system is producing closer looking games but it’s completely wrong in representing how a match up went, at least the old per tick scoring accurately represented how much you got pwnd by.
I am not defending the build (it is probably one of the stupidest things produced by HoT) but can someone actually tell me how it is any different from current warrior or DHs meta builds? They have even more point presense than thief, as much if not more survuvability, just as low skill floor. Why do i not see you crying for nerfs for those classes? Why are they fine?
As far as counters go, i can deal with those thieves just as fine scrapper or necro. As thief (i play dp) i would have to give up point ew a bit but 1-2 burst is usually enough to finish those thieves off.
We’ve seen plenty of threads about DH and how brain dead easy it is so it’s kind of been done to death but by all means open another thread. Berserker is also stupid but we see less posts about that, the few I’ve seen have all talked about nerfing adrenal healing but really the culprit is spammable T3 burst skills.
Perhaps if you ask Henry he will make one about warriors, guaranteed to get a lot of attention and discussion.
Stealth is not a thief only mechanic, it is at best a mechanic and at its basics a unique buff however mesmer, engineer and ranger have all had stealth from the beginning of the game.
Actually ranged had camouflage the most useless stealth in this game. LB3 also applied camouflage.
it was later when the lb3 got upgraded to stealth.
In any case druid have only 2 self sources of stealth: LB3 and celestial shadow, each last for 3 seconds.Thus making stealth not be able to stack in duration would fix most of the problems with stealth.
They can blast smokescale smoke field or leap through it for stealth too. Yeah sorry about the camouflage thing, it was changed just under a year after release before I started playing in October 2013.
I do agree that preventing it from stacking would fix a lot of problems with stealth, thief would need some skill changes though to balance it out as stealth attacks would be extremely hard to land. Shadow refuge would need redesigning too most likely.
(edited by apharma.3741)
so your saying you can afk in spvp and get to legendary 3 times in a row?
You don’t need to get to Legendary 3 times in a row to get the Ascension… now that they changed how divisions I’m not sure how the division crossing achievement work.
maybe not challenge mode but thats only 1 fractal. check around reset. raids only are populated monday. then it dies.
You compared the activity that attract more players than everything else in the game combined, with Raids. You can check and compare Raids and Fractals on their reset days.
Of course it’s populated on Monday and then it dies, remember how Raid rewards are behind a WEEKLY lock? Remove the lock and you’ll see way more players running Raids during the week, but that would probably cause more problems than it would solve, there is a reason it’s there.
To get the precursor wings for PvP you can pretty much grind out PvP to get them, no biggy. However if you want the legendary you need to do the achievements which will take a while as you need to play 3 matches a day for 60 days I believe and there’s a certain amount of wins per class, wins, different classes and rank points you need and it get higher each tier. The division boundaries has changed to the reward chests so you need to get 1 reward chest for 1st tier, then 2 for the 2nd etc, however your previous reward chests don’t count for the new one. So you can’t just get to Byzantium in rewards and be done with the whole lot.
If mostly alphas: Throw seige disablers and melt with condi or wait for backup, keep disabling them and you’re good.
If mostly omegas: Shield generators and then disable any alphas and normal seige, use stealth to make sure it connects.
If a mix then mix the two above, 5 people can stall the rush for long enough to get your group there to wipe them and make sure you destroy the golems.
However last linking I was with SFR and tbh most of your guys are complete morons for defending, building normal ACs all over the place and I think there’s exactly 1 person on your server that knows what a seige disabler is. Scouting seems to be an alien concept most of the time, you ask if something is under attack and spend 10 minutes getting there to see 10 people trying to fight 50 instead of replying in map/team chat.
(edited by apharma.3741)
Again when players don’t know simple mechanics that are from their own class can’t take them too seriously, again Consumed Plasma, ring any bells?
@apharma, yes Stealth needs a redesign and needs to be removed from classes that it was never designed around. But that is asking for Anet to almost overhaul a class as a whole at the basic level, which truth be told will more than likely never happen, they have difficulty shipping out balance patches that just tweak a few numbers.
again no other class has a class mechanic locked behind stealth or a dedicated Specialization for it, those aren’t moot points no matter how you want it to be. So based upon so much of the class revolving around Stealth make it’s a Class mechanic.
It would better if it was on entering stealth but again that would be too much work for Anet, based upon past patches.
You should probably drop the consume plasma thing now, it makes you look pretty, that you’re deflecting and people can be wrong about stuff. You yourself were wrong about scrappers superspeed the other day but you don’t see people bringing it up all the time to bash you with, mistakes happen, people correct them and move on.
Stealth is not a thief only mechanic, it is at best a mechanic and at its basics a unique buff however mesmer, engineer and ranger have all had stealth from the beginning of the game. If increasing everyone’s access to a certain mechanic makes everyone stupidly strong then it’s the mechanic at fault not the classes. If these were just problems with 1 or 2 classes no-one would be able to complain but you give stealth to just about any class and it suddenly becomes rediculous.
Also stop this drama about “class mechanic locked behind stealth or a dedicated trait line” it is not locked behind anything, certainly not a trait line. To be clear here no-one or at least I wasn’t saying stealth should be removed from the game, I said it needs a proper trade off to it and it does. This wouldn’t affect thief stealth attacks. No, spending initiative is not a trade off as other classes expend cool downs and stealth shouldn’t be something you can hop in and out of all the time.
Something being a modest amount of work is no excuse for how poorly implemented stealth is in the game and it’s no excuse for how other mechanics should have been revisited by now. It also isn’t an excuse for classes being broken because of said mechanics, just because you don’t trust ANet to deal with something properly it doesn’t mean you have to pretend it’s all fine.
(edited by apharma.3741)
Yes, but look at the facts of 1. Thief is the only class with Stealth Attacks, which is tied behind what exactly? Oh right Stealth. And 2. A Specialization soley dedicated to What again? Oh yeah Stealth. So even though Stealth is not exclusive Thief has. Exclusive access to the Unique Stealth Attacks which can only exist while Stealthed. And 3. Anets main design of Thief was around Stealth which is why it’s one of two featured things one the Profession bio on the official webpage.
Again no other profession has an exclusive skill linked to or behind Stealth while Thief does
IMO stealth should have been exclusive to Thief, since it is the only class that has it built into the Core Concept and design of the class, then it would be easier to balance since any changes affecting Stealth would only affect Thief
Point 1 is moot atm due to the 1s cool down on them, they’re good for precast with steal and that’s about it. Even then changing stealth doesn’t necessarily change what the purpose of the stealth attack is, to give the opening advantage to the thief.
2. Again this doesn’t have to mean the trait line becomes useless or nerfed. I always said that SA should instead have been “when you enter stealth” rather than rewarding for camping. Even if stealth had a lock out of 10s (not saying it should be added before you run away with that comment) you will still get as much from the traits as most other classes get from theirs.
Thief should never have been balanced around a broken mechanic and it’s all the worse for it. The sooner stealth as a mechanic is made with real trade offs for being in stealth the better, for all classes including thieves.
I can’t take someone that uses “y’all” this many times in a post seriously. City of Heroes was made by Cryptic and they use a similar system in STO for stealth. While I think that is a better system for stealth their version of CC and immunity is much much worse than ANets.
You can’t really have the stealth system in this game as it’s a point investment and pretty much only counters stealth as well as having reveal ranges. It would be far more of a mess trying to implement that system here. Instead I think they need to have stealth not stacking and adjust stealth times from there and cool downs. Stealth should be a tactical play not something you can sit in and strike at leisure while being mostly unpunished outside of your own ineptitude.
As for CC, a lot of CC skills can be blocked or dodged in addition to having stunbreaks and stability in varying amounts with the options in some cases to trait something to break stun. Sure there’s a bit too much CC or too easy access for low cool down but that’s a numbers issue that’s easily tuned by increasing cool downs or removing daze from something spammable like mace primal burst.
I win 2 matches for 22 points and lose 3 matches for 41 points. I win 2 matches and get back to silver, I lose 1 match and go back to bronze.
Is it my fault? Nope. Yes, I make mistakes every game, but I can’t win a game when we have a staff ele, two thieves and a bunker guardian that wipe 4v2 on mid and decide to chat in /t instead of playing.Why do i get teams like that three to four games in a row?
Total of last games:
500:405
500:296
190:501
219:500
152:502Trash your matchmaking, Anet.
Were you the staff ele, two thieves or guardian?
Oh wait you neglected to mention what you did to change the outcome of the match and believe me, as useless as your team is the other team isn’t much better.
So what did you do to change the outcome of the match if you honestly don’t think you should be in that division?
@Threather I was in WSR which has consistently before linking been bronze, highest we got was fighting GH and RoF when GH lost KISS and cared so little for ppt they plummeted.
We had a regular WvW population and a lot of us liked it because there weren’t huge zerg fights. When an objective was tagged you had plenty of time to get there and defend a lot of the time and usually unless massively outnumbered nothing was lost till the final player died.
Honestly if the scoring changes had come before linking most of the small servers would have been fine for the 40 people who still played on them.
Better or worse than turret engy?
Such salt in this thread. I don’t get it really, what else do you want to see to admit elo hell doesnt exist? People arguing against this desperately cling on to the fact that he is an ESL player and he ‘took advantage of less skilled players’ or was in ‘lucky comps’…
Him being an ESL player doesn’t mean anything, its just allowed us to see a whole enjoyable journey of bronze to legendary – where he belongs. If a gold skill level player streamed his journey would end at gold, if he is silver skill level it would end at silver etc. It may take shorter or longer to get there, as luck isn’t nonexistant. But this shows that whoever you are, you will reach where you belong if you keep playing. If you cannot move anymore, then thats where you belong.
I thought I would be done commenting on this thread, but this was just to irresistible to pass on.
I suppose the advice he’s giving to other players on a different thread doesn’t matter then (the basis for his advice is his level and skill, which really means nothing)? Therefore, everyone should ignore it entirely because being an elite level (legendary rank) player makes him an unreliable source, especially when it comes to playing against people that he clearly out classes because they have not had sufficient time to accrue and develop their knowledge and skill.A lot of the advise is based on how to beat X profession as Y class and he gives that advise nicely. He told a guy how to beat mesmer with warrior saying that condi warrior shouldn’t win and will have a hard time but GS with mace shield and unblockable signet will destroy mesmer. You wait till the mesmer uses shield 4 then signet of might and use unblockable headbutt.
He gives advise on when to get a clone from phase retreat and when not to and these are just from the few posts I could be bothered to read on the last page. I wouldn’t call that advise to just ignore nor elitist and only specific to his level.
I am not questioning his intent, in fact that has nothing to do why I brought it up. Having stated this, this will be my last post on this thread, but I just want to share a few final thoughts. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, or put another way the road to MMR/ELO hell is paved with good intentions. I only think there really are those who struggle as a result of the MMR, so I don’t want to minimize their experiences – it’s a computer program (a good one by all accounts) but it cannot/does not account every kind of variable. He are my final thoughts:
1) He is a legendary ranked player who earned his legendary rank then subsequently tanked his MMR to play against others that could not compete on his level.
2) The outcome is nothing short of what should be expected of a legendary ranked player; he did what he was supposed to do.
3) In trying to dispute the existence of ELO/MMR gehenna, he actually created it for other people (both by tanking his MMR – he also tanked it for others who were on his team because the only way to tank it is to lose; furthermore, he played against players who had no chance at winning due to their inexperience/knowledge and rank – that’s why they are still in lower ranks thus having no real chance at advancement).
4)He cannot and has not recreated many of the circumstance that people are complaining about, therefore, he cannot and did not prove his premise. at best, he proved that a legendary ranked player can climb out of lower ranks, at worst you can grind your way out.
Maybe you should read more about it, he didn’t tank his MMR he had an alt account from a while ago that hadn’t seen much or any play on. When he tried to do his placement matches he found he had to be a certain rank to play ranked.
He then played unranked to get the PvP rank to be able to play ranked, I was there on the opposite team mostly. He then asked Kol to do the placement matches with an utterly terrible venom build on thief (Kol still killed a few and I think won a match) and that got him a 600 rating, right at the bottom of bronze.
He didn’t create any form of Elo hell for anyone, look at that win rate, he was gone out of divisions before bed have a chance to properly affect people’s ratings assuming they’ve played a decent number of games this season.
I take it the condi druids are just what qT uses. In that set up it works but would need for bosses to not really be moving as moving would reduce the condi rangers damage a lot.
I’m also seeing it probably relies on blasting fire fields to some extent to get might. This works if the whole raid is running rangers or classes that drop a load of fire fields. Where this build falls down would be moving bosses and if you start including things like fresh air tempests as they would be dropping lightning fields everywhere. Needless to say this doesn’t play well with others so it looks like it is mostly a niche build.
That isn’t to say it’s not creative or going to easily complete the raid bosses it will be fine for, it will, and it’s some really nice thinking behind it. Sadly outside of your own created raid groups you’ll have a hard time convincing anyone to give this a shot. Not because it’s bad but because most people in LFG are generally ignorant and not very creative.
Anyway best of luck with further refinements and tests that you will no doubt do.
It would be helpful if you posted the gw2skills.net link to the builds you’re using. Currently using a tablet and having to hunt through your previous post and then being bounced to the YouTube app is making it a pain to see what’s going on with the different builds.
Such salt in this thread. I don’t get it really, what else do you want to see to admit elo hell doesnt exist? People arguing against this desperately cling on to the fact that he is an ESL player and he ‘took advantage of less skilled players’ or was in ‘lucky comps’…
Him being an ESL player doesn’t mean anything, its just allowed us to see a whole enjoyable journey of bronze to legendary – where he belongs. If a gold skill level player streamed his journey would end at gold, if he is silver skill level it would end at silver etc. It may take shorter or longer to get there, as luck isn’t nonexistant. But this shows that whoever you are, you will reach where you belong if you keep playing. If you cannot move anymore, then thats where you belong.
I thought I would be done commenting on this thread, but this was just to irresistible to pass on.
I suppose the advice he’s giving to other players on a different thread doesn’t matter then (the basis for his advice is his level and skill, which really means nothing)? Therefore, everyone should ignore it entirely because being an elite level (legendary rank) player makes him an unreliable source, especially when it comes to playing against people that he clearly out classes because they have not had sufficient time to accrue and develop their knowledge and skill.
A lot of the advise is based on how to beat X profession as Y class and he gives that advise nicely. He told a guy how to beat mesmer with warrior saying that condi warrior shouldn’t win and will have a hard time but GS with mace shield and unblockable signet will destroy mesmer. You wait till the mesmer uses shield 4 then signet of might and use unblockable headbutt.
He gives advise on when to get a clone from phase retreat and when not to and these are just from the few posts I could be bothered to read on the last page. I wouldn’t call that advise to just ignore nor elitist and only specific to his level.
It doesn’t prove anything in a scientific term….
Which means it does not prove anything at all, which is the point.
To even bring up scientific reasoning is itself grasping at straws…
No, that is how valid, useful experiments work you don’t take a system with many different variables and test it once, with one subject, because that has rather large flaws so does not constitute meaningful proof in any way.
Also assuming people must be… to call this proof…
It is amusing you take a throwaway line so seriously, it got the point across that his laughably termed “experiment” it is basically meaningless, same goes for the “proof” people post in this thread, and that if some people don’t realise that, then that is their failing.
And that goes for all the “proof”, so the guy who posted how he is struggling in Gold on one account, yet is on Bronze in another account, having played plenty of games is also not ‘proof’ that Helseth is wrong.
The reality is you can’t do any sort of useful experiment, because this game has not had a stable rating system, so the only players who can be used as a test subject are a tiny handful of very good players who you know should be top division, as you don’t know where the other 99.999% of the players should actually be placed in theory on their ability.
Which is of course useless, because for that to have meaning you would have make massive assumptions like the relationship between skill level and a players ability to influence the game remains a constant regardless of that skill level, teammates, etc, same thing for other factors like matchmaking, you’d have to assume that a guy who works shifts so plays at unusual times, gets the same consistency of matchmaking at 5 AM as he would at 9pm primetime, you’d have to assume every class has the same ability to influence a match & performs the same at platinum as it does at bronze, and so on.
And just to be clear, I’ve played this game about 3 times in the last three months, and gave up on PvP a long time ago (I play SC2 for PvP, at which I am very mediocre) so have no vested interest in this discussion.
I don’t think in strict terms “ELO hell” exists in that if you play enough games eventually a player will move to their correct position, however I think that in a game with all the issues GW2 PvP has, then I can see how it is possible in some circumstances for a player to take much longer than may be desirable or enjoyable to get to their actual placement, to the point it could get conflated with “ELO hell”.
As I said previously, the whole ELO Hell thing is a red herring, most complaints I see or hear about the system aren’t really about the alleged “ELO Hell” at all, at least not in a very black and white sense.
This game has had a behind the scenes matchmaking system and rating for years, we don’t have access to it but ANet do and some people can tell what their skill level was based on who they fought regularly. They used to regularly face ESL players in queues and not at irregular times and had team mates that did rotate, knew their roles and performed well.
I mean I get what you’re saying about non of this having much scientific basis at all but what I’ve been saying is that this is a video game which is also intended for fun. Carrying out any form of experiment that would qualify to being called scientific would require far more effort than what most people care to do or would want to do. It also seems a bit silly to want to apply scientific principles to it.
Again other top players have made the climb from bronze or silver to platinum and legendary.
There is also one big fallacy your argument is making, You completely eliminate the fact of getting better.
ESL level is way different yes, but human capability can also reach at that level. I do not play as much anymore due to IRL stuff but trust me, countless games and duels, watching videos, making your own team, joining AGs (Even if you LOSE) will make you a better player than most.
I can remember Caspian losing most 1v1s with Chaos A or Rylock but now look where he is.
Incorrect. My gameplay is the same was it was when I dropped to the cusp of Bronze. I play an Engi, and I mash my skills whenever they’re off cooldown. I did not get better. I got better teammates.
I dunno, seems you’re on par with most of gold…
So your explanation is that they were only able to climb from bronze to gold because of luck? You seriously believe that others can only do it because they get lucky and you and others get unlucky? You seriously believe that is a more reasonable explanation than they simply climbed to where they belong and you are stuck where you belong?
It’s official, there is no reasoning with you people. You guys have no intention whatsoever of listening to anyone, so this whole argument is pointless.
oficial is that there is no reasoning with you
i said before with the swimmers example and i repeat now:a top tier player : world championship level swimmer, put in local championship with a team of local championship level teammates in a relay race can give them and increible amount of seconds of advantage that even if they had the bad luck of be in the worse team of competition they can win
a gold player : national level championship swimmer , gives they a good advantage and can win with low average teams
a silver player : regional level championship swimmer, gives to their team a minor advantage and they win if they are put in and average team, if not the minor advantage gets eaten by the rivalsclimbing out of bronze division where the skill gap is greater than the mmr metrics shows is hardest as your true rank more aproaches to bronze that you are more dependant of not geting a bad team(luck)
that we are saying to you is that top 250, platinum, gold players can easy jump the fence of bronze, but silver ones not and the experiment of OP is irrelevant cuz they are top 10 one and probably can win with a team of home tricapers that only spawn autos in bronze and obviously a silver player can’t
The thing is this is only looking at one match or instance, if you truly give your team an advantage, even a small advantage you should be showing it over time. You should be getting g a few top stats if you are the best on the team which reduces the loss of rating on losing and increases rating gain from winning.
I have had a loss take away 15-20 rating with 3 top stats only for me to win it all back next game with again 3 top stats.
If you cannot show that you are better than the people in the game, even if it’s only by a small advantage, then you are in fact in the right division
this small avantage that can give a “true silver” player in a game can be negated by only one bad teammate, that is the point, and dont forget that top bronze/low silver the entry point ,1200 points, where lands more of the new players, that increases the random factor your numerical best player can be a new one and for the other team the same, that is the think that make the most games are not truly balanced in terms of skills when probably we (high bronse low/mid silver)are the large comunity and the one that get the most numericall (in mmr numbers)equilibrated games
But by that same reasoning isn’t it just as likely the other team has someone that is as bad as the person dragging the silver player down too? I mean you cannot get players who are worse than the enemy team all the time especially when you have such a large player pool as you’re claiming.
Maybe the top 250 should have to solo queue that way for them to stay top 250 they essentially have to show they are the best and carry (or do the best they can). Of course there’s always going to be fringe cases where the 240-250 spots keep fluctuating as the duo pair pushes into it then drops because the ability to coordinate with 1 other person is very strong.
However one thing I haven’t seen many bring up is that this game is a team game, it is balanced around classes and their roles within teams. Being unable to rely on your team can have a very negative effect on your ability to play depending on class and I just don’t see a solution to that tbh.
At the end of the day the system isn’t perfect but compared to previous seasons it’s a lot better and I feel it works well enough that I honestly can’t complain except for the lack of game modes.
A rating cap is way eaiser to do and also way less confusing and less feel bad for players for many reasons.
Honestly the high end games are kind of dead currently. The mesmer thief duo and push far to insta moa someone and then snowball the whole map from there……that is ruining the higher queues. People are dodge queuing alot. And then a bunch of 1800 get matched with the try hards and just quit.
I guess a rating cap or limit makes it easier but you will still get those fringe cases where those on the edge will keep pushing up or down as they duo or not duo.
If it’s the legendary rank and it essentially means those people going up or down are not likely to lose a title due to loses vs duo queue players then yeah I agree ratings is better. As you say easier to implement and understand.
I know a few people who got paced in Bronze but are now in gold/platinum however they didn’t take screenshots at the start or video their progress because as I say, it’s a video game and most people just don’t care to do what you would require as proof.
Whookitten
here we go, instead of answering the question we get a snide remark. Anyone worth thier salt would answer or clarify their position.
Edit: lol at that weird censorship
I am more than aware of scientific practises and the necessity of being able to produce reliable consistent results based on as large a sample size as is feasible.
That’s why I was saying bringing up scientific reasoning is grasping at straws, you can’t apply scientific methodology to this and being that vested in doing so seems a bit over kill especially given the environment as you outlined. I mean come on, it’s a video game and not even a viewed by millions one at that.
The only person grasping at straws is you, making out like I’m expecting it to follow the standards required to get a paper published in Nature is dishonest, the “experiment” and other “evidence” in the thread (both for and against) is simply flawed on the most basic level to the point it is worthless, if you don’t understand that, then that says more about you than anything else.
Expecting it to conform to your ideas of proof seems to be a bit much to me. What would constitute proof to you then if video of one player making it from bronze to platinum/legendary isn’t? 100?
I know a few people who got paced in Bronze but are now in gold/platinum however they didn’t take screenshots at the start or video their progress because as I say, it’s a video game and most people just don’t care to do what you would require as proof.
I am more than aware of scientific practises and the necessity of being able to produce reliable consistent results based on as large a sample size as is feasible.
That’s why I was saying bringing up scientific reasoning is grasping at straws, you can’t apply scientific methodology to this and being that vested in doing so seems a bit over kill especially given the environment as you outlined. I mean come on, it’s a video game and not even a viewed by millions one at that.
Maybe the top 250 should have to solo queue that way for them to stay top 250 they essentially have to show they are the best and carry (or do the best they can). Of course there’s always going to be fringe cases where the 240-250 spots keep fluctuating as the duo pair pushes into it then drops because the ability to coordinate with 1 other person is very strong.
However one thing I haven’t seen many bring up is that this game is a team game, it is balanced around classes and their roles within teams. Being unable to rely on your team can have a very negative effect on your ability to play depending on class and I just don’t see a solution to that tbh.
At the end of the day the system isn’t perfect but compared to previous seasons it’s a lot better and I feel it works well enough that I honestly can’t complain except for the lack of game modes.
@Nikkinella: Your problem isn’t that raids are difficult or you can’t do them it’s that legendary armour is tied to raids. ANet should have made it independent of raids as now there is 0 prestige to anything in raids as it can all be bought.
Legendary weapons are tied behind WvW for the PvE-ers and tied behind PvE Map completion for the WvWers. Tying legendary armor to Raiders is a similar thing. They said legendary armor would be for those doing HoT stuff. The only logical gate to make it seem as prestigious as we want it to be is Raiding.
That presige is lost if you can buy the raids though, if you weren’t allowed to sell raids we wouldn’t need extra categories in LFG and people would have to earn those prestige items one way or another.
I don’t go around crying I’m never going to have God of PvP title because I know I’m not that good nor am I willing to put in the amount of effort needed to get it which would be PvP for months. I am ok with this, I’ve made my choice of either “git gud” or do without and I will do without. Same can be said of legendary armour, no-one needs it and it would be cheaper to get multiple exotic or even ascended sets instead.
So your explanation is that they were only able to climb from bronze to gold because of luck? You seriously believe that others can only do it because they get lucky and you and others get unlucky? You seriously believe that is a more reasonable explanation than they simply climbed to where they belong and you are stuck where you belong?
It’s official, there is no reasoning with you people. You guys have no intention whatsoever of listening to anyone, so this whole argument is pointless.
oficial is that there is no reasoning with you
i said before with the swimmers example and i repeat now:a top tier player : world championship level swimmer, put in local championship with a team of local championship level teammates in a relay race can give them and increible amount of seconds of advantage that even if they had the bad luck of be in the worse team of competition they can win
a gold player : national level championship swimmer , gives they a good advantage and can win with low average teams
a silver player : regional level championship swimmer, gives to their team a minor advantage and they win if they are put in and average team, if not the minor advantage gets eaten by the rivalsclimbing out of bronze division where the skill gap is greater than the mmr metrics shows is hardest as your true rank more aproaches to bronze that you are more dependant of not geting a bad team(luck)
that we are saying to you is that top 250, platinum, gold players can easy jump the fence of bronze, but silver ones not and the experiment of OP is irrelevant cuz they are top 10 one and probably can win with a team of home tricapers that only spawn autos in bronze and obviously a silver player can’t
The thing is this is only looking at one match or instance, if you truly give your team an advantage, even a small advantage you should be showing it over time. You should be getting g a few top stats if you are the best on the team which reduces the loss of rating on losing and increases rating gain from winning.
I have had a loss take away 15-20 rating with 3 top stats only for me to win it all back next game with again 3 top stats.
If you cannot show that you are better than the people in the game, even if it’s only by a small advantage, then you are in fact in the right division
its fun watching everyone make every excuse they can to “prove” they arent as bad as they actually are.
It is more fun watching how many people in this thread are apparently school dropouts and think Helseth’s “experiment” or anything others have posted constitutes proof or disproof in any meaningful sense.
It doesn’t prove anything in a scientific term but then I would question why anyone feels the need to say it isn’t scientific when based on his attitude alone he wouldn’t get passed by the ethics committee. Never mind that this is broadcast to a lot of people as it’s happening and he’s even had people in game pop onto his stream when they see him in the match to chat thus adding more and more interference from participants.
To even bring up scientific reasoning is itself grasping at straws, sure just what Helseth has done doesn’t prove anything alone but there have been posts on the forums of people climbing out of bronze to gold/platinum. Vaans and a few other higher players on the leaderboard have also done such a thing and when added together certainly casts doubt on the Elo hell claims. Claims which are backed up by even less evidence in itself only citing “I was legend in the other 4 seasons” as proof most of the time.
Also assuming people must be school dropouts to call this proof is at best presumptuous and at worst just plain ignorant. It’s akin to the teenagers on the forum or even worse the middle aged adults calling people kid to assert a sense of age dominance when really it is immature.
I occasionally run this build in conjuction with magi stats.
I find it especially useful in Fractals with the “Afflicted” instability because you can make your team basically immune to conditions.
Otherwise it’s usually outclassed by a druid in terms of raw healing.
- Having nobody but the druid give Regeneration is actually benefitial, because he gains more astral force this way.
- Vigor can cut the damage of your warrior in undesired ways.
- Taking conditions off your Necro will cost him damage.
- And Swiftness it irrelevant for most encounters, because you stack in certain locations anyways.
So the only benefitial boons you can give with this build are Protection and Fury. Protection is dismissed by most groups, putting that weight on the druid and Fury is usually acquired either via a Revenant or the Persisting Flames Trait in fire, pushing the Ele back into the DPS role.
tl;dr:
The Support-Ele is situational at best and is usually better off dealing damage.
Fury is usually the domain of druid and mesmer now, most eles don’t run blasts anymore and with the number of fields flying around now it’s harder and harder to blast fire fields. You might stack fury at the beginning of a fight for the mesmer and then they just share it constantly with 96% boon duration from that point on.
Tiger pet can keep permanent fury up too if people are near and as mentioned a rev will dish out fury too. A group without any of these classes might need the ele to blast but we would be talking about a very random group at that point that just turn up on whatever. In which case 25 might and fury would probably be a struggle but a warrior can put on for great justice and a guardian feel my wrath for some fury.
Like I say beepboopbop and Blaquefyre, I haven’t seen this happen myself, I’ve been hit by maybe one clone which I put down to poor timing but the conditions from 1 clone is hardly worth caring about. This includes playing UC on thief in WvW with Pi instead of EA against condi and power mes.
If it truly is a problem with the game make a video showing it to the devs and ask for a fix but I place the blame on my skill for poor dodging on the few times I am hit. Most of the time dodge works fine.
(edited by apharma.3741)
People don’t seem to understand my point. If you lose 7 of 10 placements on purpose to get into bronze, but then go 20-0 for the next 20 games, the system doesn’t stabilize your mmr in bronze. A true show of carry out of bronze would be to get to the point where you gain less mmr than you lose, like people are seeing in their “correct” tier, then starting the climb. I’m not bashing the guy, I just think this was more of a “hey look at me, I’m special” than it was a show of how you can climb in the system.
But if people are getting to that point where they gain less than they lose in bronze then they do in fact belong in bronze. Doesn’t matter if it’s bronze, silver, gold, platinum or legendary, when you get to that point you are more or less where you belong.
Winning still awards 15-20 rating so a win streak of 3 or 4 games can take you to the next level of the division. If you then get a 40% loss rate there you will stay even especially if you’re getting top stats.
Here we go again with people bashing nothelseth for something something blah blah. Shouldve done it with blah. He should be blindfolded and using one hand only. Blah blah blah. Get over yourself bronze gods. He just proved that elo hell can be beaten by playing good. So practice some more and try not to use your legendary title if you are in bronze / silver. It’s embarassing. Just proves that you face roll farmed that title from previous seasons.
Actually what he proved is that if you don’t belong in bronze you should be able to climb out of bronze. He also proved that you will move to where you should be no matter where you start, given enough matches I’m sure he could get this account to the top 5.
Still yeah, if someone is in bronze with a 50% win ratio then they belong in bronze. I agree it’s also ridiculous to ask him to not only play a class he’s not mechanically great at but also is one of the worst ones for carrying.
I certainly wouldn’t say these tips are in the spirit of fair play and competitiveness
Removing the AoE cap on CCs like static field, line of warding etc was needed at the time when stab could be ripped through in less than 1s but I feel it’s time to revert that change.
People without stab should be caught by pushing behind those with stab not protected by them as they remove these AoE hazards due to the target cap.
Now repeat it playing elementalist ^^.
tbh ele is the best carry class behind Mesmer.
Lolwut?!?
This must be sarcasm…
It has to be sarcasm….
Please, God I don’t believe in, let it be sarcasm…
Also @Tim, if you had played in bronze without making significant gains for a while then you do in fact belong in bronze. If you really think you shouldn’t be there you can duo queue with someone in silver/gold and if you keep winning then you will get enough rating to leave bronze. If however you belong in bronze you will get destroyed by players 1v1 and lose to classes you counter and be a liability most likely losing matches.
The term “you” is a generic term aimed at the general player was not you specifically Tim, I don’t know what rank you are and I don’t care so long as you’re having decent matches.
(edited by apharma.3741)
I don’t think mes are broken, only things i would changes is
- CS shouldn’t reset elites. Maybe allow cs reduce CD on elite but not complete reset
- clones really should stop running at light speed. I understand they wanted to stop kiting of the shatters however issue is not that shatters became undodgable. If you dodge into shatter, the clones assume you didn’t dodge but moved and instead of stopping for shatter actually continue to chase you. Idc what they do it but shatters should be consistent so you have chance to dodge them instead of eating full condi crap despite dodging into shatter.The problem with your second point is that HoT brought a lot of movement speed for everyone so shatters without superspeed simply don’t hit anymore unless detonated instantly at 0 range.
Swiftness might make them able to hit but there’s still the problem of people can just run and kite the shatters easily assuming moderate distance to the clones. It doesn’t bode well for new elite specs though, there’s nothing more depressing than seeing shatters on base mesmer chasing after someone with swiftness and never being able to catch them.
1 boon shutting down a class mechanic and needing a trait to counter.
I understand the issue but shatters ignoring dodges is not OK. Imagine all my attacks would land on your regardless what you did. This is how it is fighting mes atm.
They need to fix it somehow, maybe make clones actually register the dodge better instead of ignoring it….
I haven’t had this problem, sure I’ve dodged and got hit by a clone but I put that down to I dodged too soon or too late and one hit me. I’m not saying it’s not happening only that I haven’t seen it happen and only really heard of this from you and after 10 pages of bugs forum no mention of it nor have I seen a post in the mesmer subforum.
If someone has a video of clones hitting through dodges it would help figuring out what’s happening at least for the devs. I have no problems with it being fixed if it is happening though because that’s obviously not the way it should work, you should be able to dodge all attacks.
I don’t think mes are broken, only things i would changes is
- CS shouldn’t reset elites. Maybe allow cs reduce CD on elite but not complete reset
- clones really should stop running at light speed. I understand they wanted to stop kiting of the shatters however issue is not that shatters became undodgable. If you dodge into shatter, the clones assume you didn’t dodge but moved and instead of stopping for shatter actually continue to chase you. Idc what they do it but shatters should be consistent so you have chance to dodge them instead of eating full condi crap despite dodging into shatter.
The problem with your second point is that HoT brought a lot of movement speed for everyone so shatters without superspeed simply don’t hit anymore unless detonated instantly at 0 range.
Swiftness might make them able to hit but there’s still the problem of people can just run and kite the shatters easily assuming moderate distance to the clones. It doesn’t bode well for new elite specs though, there’s nothing more depressing than seeing shatters on base mesmer chasing after someone with swiftness and never being able to catch them.
1 boon shutting down a class mechanic and needing a trait to counter.
Luciferior got me thinking and I checked the PEGI for GW2, it’s rated for 12 year olds.
Once again I don’t actually think conditions are in a bad spot, it’s just a few skills that need tuning down slightly. The main culprit though is that HoT brought power creep in damage, defences but also in conditions applied by power builds. This isn’t a problem per say but it gets hard to cleanse the slowly building 7 bleeds and 4 poison when you have 3 or 4 other control conditions being applied consistently from power classes.