Guild Wars 2

Chaith, I feel part of your problem here, is that you are automatically assuming that every posters comments refer exclusively to specific situations in sPvP. I saw nothing in the title or the OP that specifies this discussion is based on sPvP. I cannot speak for everyone else, but I was not being exclusive to a specific game mode in my comments.

I would appreciate it if you would not take my statements out of context and apply it to only one specific situation, and presume to declare my opinion as discount able, simply because you only see things in terms of sPvP.

BlackBeard.2873:

I disagree with this statement for one reason – most meta specs don’t actually take any of the many sources of burning available (and don’t have to) because of this trait. In effect, it is serving the same purpose as dhuumfire was (although engineers have more access to control, mobility, and confusion, with fewer bleeds than necros). If most engineer specs had IP to make burning more reliable, your logic would work, but, at this point, IP is so strong and powerful that they forego all other sources of burning. To me, that is a problem.

I do not think you know what your talking about. Are you suggesting bomb kit is not in “the meta”? Are you forcing the sPvP meta on us as a representation of the games entirety? Amost every engineer I know takes rocket boots in WvW for the benefit of mobility + AoE burning. Bomb kit is used by many many engineers in all three game modes. Flame thrower is a very popular kit in WvW for burning through doors, incendiary ammo, and the CC available to it. Clearly you have absolutely no understanding of the meta in the least.

His logic does work. It is the only manner of ranged Application of burning to the profession. That seems fairly logical to me, as when we know the other forms of burning are all 600 range or less

BlackBeard.2873:

I know that many engineers here are going to defend this trait vociferously, and nothing that is said will change their opinion. However, I do think it is good to raise some of the design issues that exist with this trait. Pretty much every class has similar design problems that could be brought up, and fixing them gradually would be an excellent thing to make this game more skill-based and fun to play.

Defending it? No, I could care less. They could remove it right now. I never take it, because I have been a bomb kit addict since say one, and I often run P/P, and I almost always use rocket boots. This trait is pointless to me. Though players who want to run a gadget build or elixir build who would not be using rocket boots or bomb kit, may find great benefit in it. I do not think using a meta, accurate or not, as the boogey man, justifies nerfing a trait.

Avigrus.2871:

That’s a pretty bold assertion, that all but 12 people would agree with this proposal.

For all you know the wider population may not have a problem with this – again, there are only about 2 or 3 people in this thread arguing against this… so we could flip that around the other way, couldn’t we?

It is an assertion? No more or less then some of your statements here.

No, we do not know what the wider population does or does not want. Although there are more players arguing against it in this thread alone then are arguing for it.

So sure, try to flip it around if you like. Make all the assumption you like that the entirety of the community wants necros to have more stability. Feel free to convince us that everyone who mains and prefers other professions want this. Particularly when half of the players here who do play necros disagree with it.

What I do not get is how you ignore the suggestion of lowering the cool downs on stun breaker. What that says to me is that you have less of a concern about dealing with CC itself and simply want cheese mode with stability.

As far as your reference to ele stability. Well it has already been pointed out that, that given the necro skills that already offer stability, the necro has significantly more stability per minute up time average then the ele and the engineer. So why you keep referencing them is hard to understand.

spoj.9672:

Well im also ok with reducing spectral armour and spectral walk to 40sec cd skills. But then those clearly would be op. Making a useless signet a stunbreak + stability doesnt really compare to buffing already strong skills to be even stronger.

Well as a concession you could change spectral armor from 6s to 5s. I do not personally think it is OP either way, but that is just me.

Claiming the signet is useless as it is, after all of the post made complaining about mobility here, seems a bit counter intuitive to most of the arguments. Either mobility is a problem or it isn’t. When so many posters use this as a justification for stability, but your more then happy to ditch it, it suggest you do not feel lack of mobility is an issue. Personally I like the signet for the movement rate boost. If I was to have stability anywhere, I would prefer to have it where it already is, and have the well of power simply pulse it. That way your not adding a new boon to any skill. You are simply making it useful on a skill that already has it.

BlackBeard.2873:

Healing Turret – 1/2s cast time, which is not enough time to be interrupted. Also, one of the best heals in the game, giving cleanse, huge water field (actually 2 if you time the F1 skill well), a blast (if needed), and condi clear on a short 16s CD (20s if blasted to support team with health). Even if this skill were able to be interrupted, it would still EASILY be the best engie heal. One of 2 healing skills that has less than 3/4s cast time.
Proposed fix – Make it a 1s cast time, or put an additional 1/2s cast animation on the overcharge.

This one struck me as odd. Because the healing turret itself is the lowest heal in the game. To gain its full benefits, you must use F1 – 5 – 5- F1. That is a 4 key system to accomplish all that you suggest it can do. Not to mention your claim of it being the best heal, is no more then a very subjective opinion.

Not only is this skill actually interruptible in its current form, and portion of the chain required to utilize its full benefits can be interrupted. They can be knocked out of its range, and so on. I am not saying I am against making it a 1s cast time to place the turret, because the healing kits actual heal is 1s and Elixir H is 1s, while A.E.D. is 3/4s, I simply feel that the fact that it requires a well timed system of 4 key presses to utilize its full benefits, puts it apart from the other heals you mention. Not only is there a multiple key press needed, but they have delays to give proper timing to blast it as well.

What does each tier have to do with what he suggested?

You mention it could turn out very different. Do you mean similarly to how everyone complained about some “perceived” condition meta in PvP, yet in tournaments, almost no one uses conditions? Or do you mean different like the misconception that it some how magically adds a 40% damage boost when it doesnt? Or do you mean different as when broken down, the actual damage per second output is increased more with power food?

Wouldn’t basing a change on damage food be more beneficial if we base it on factual and comparable increase?

By the way. I am personally for separating this into two different foods. One for damaging and debuff conditions, and one for CC conditions.

grifflyman.8102:

Enough is enough, the player base has brought this to the attention of the developers thousands of times. It was hotly discussed in the collaborative development thread (which hasn’t gone anywhere) and it continues to be discussed, yet nothing’s been done, or even experimented with.

The current core mechanics in WvW repeatedly punish servers for lacking coverage.

It’s been said thousands of times. When can we expect some news? Some ideas? Some change?

Let me get this straight. You some how suggesting that Anet is responsible for player choices?

What should Anet do about this issue. Not a darn thing. The only possible thing Anet can do, is to force players to move servers. Then what happens when a particular server has a dip in population for a few months? You expect them to force move others again?

The mechanics of WvW do not punish servers for a lack of coverage. The server community not showing up punishes its self.

This absurd idea that somehow Anet is at fault for the imbalance is absurd. Band wagoners and the fact that players have times that they do things like sleep or work is the problem.

If it is such an easy problem to solve, what do you recommend be implemented to aid the issue that doesn’t punish players?

Aomine.5012:

Actually there’s a solution came out this season 2 to deal with insane coverage,
which is 2 v 1 the strongest server.
It proved to be worked in both Gold League and Silver League.
Only flaw is a bunch of whiners will start crying out loud for not getting their candies.

This is exactly right.
Heaven forbid you ask someone to take responsibility for their own community and do something about it right?

The OP needs to stop blaming Anet and organize his community.

Killface.1896:

50% less points during night problem solved,karma train scrubs still get there karma but are not the only reason server wins.

You mean problem created.

As soon as you demand Anet gives 50% benefits during your prime playtime, I will agree with this.

What makes you so special that you feel those who do not live, work, and play are your schedule should be punished?

Dayra.7405:

in prime-time we have a point/player ratio of 695/1200 (all maps on all server have queue)
in off-time it depends on the server and it’s rank, but I would be surprised to hear that any match has more player than 400 i.e. a 695/400 ratio.
if you cut points by half in off-time you reach
347.5/400 which is still much in favor of the off-time player than 695/1200 for prime-time player.

To summarize for you:
Cutting off-time points by half, reduces discrimination of prime-time player a bit, it’s still far away from discriminating off-time player

This is absolute genius !!!

I agree. Lets show absolute bias and punish the players who are not you. /end sarcasm

By the way, perhaps you need to grab a dictionary and look up discrimination. Because you literally define a system that discriminates against other players just to follow it up with a declaration that it lacks discrimination.

This game mode is an all out territory war and is design specifically to be just that. Punishing those who take advantage of your lack of participation is unreasonable. All of these ideas to punish players who play at times that you do not, are fine example of your unwillingness to be reasonable. All that displays is that you are selfish, and want the game redesigned to suit your personal time frame. That is both unreasonable and irrational.

Gooz Nooz.2960:

Engis aren’t really optimal for zergs, our lack of stability and stun breaks do make it hard for us. However, i find that in zergs its best to stay on the rim of the fight and chucking grenades from down range. As for small groups engis are great and thats what engis excel at. For the role of an engi in a zerg, I’ll say the best role is aoe damage with nades we dont offer much boons or heals however we have a lot of blast finishers so i guess blasting fields is another role.

In my experience engies are great for zergs.

• The engineers on my server often get asked to run mines to work with necros to set up areas to lead the other zerg through to do massive boon strips.

• We have 2 low cool down water fields with healing turret to drop on Pin to blast.

• AoE heals on the bomb kit keep a constant 250+ heal tic up on 5 people at one time. Offer AoE blinds, and skirt stability with AoE immobility.

• EG has many benefits, and aoe heal field, 12 cool down aoe cleanse.

At least these are the benefits of the build I run when I am commanding.

If your lacking in guardians or warriors and need stability you can always toss in Elixir B for some AoE stability. Although I find I almost never needed to carry this in a zerg.

In reference to closing gaps, I feel we really do lack in that area. Considering we have bomb builds and builds that focus on the tool kit or even the FT, the engineer really does seem to lack ways to close the gap. When you see all of the weapons skills out there on other professions, having to use a utility slot for rocket boots really feels lacking.

Shockwave.1230:

coglin.1867:

So what was the point of your thread?

I keep pointing out kits can always be used to counterplay the enemy’s weapon set, because it seems to be true so far. If there are any apparent weaknesses in particular match-ups it’s worth being aware of.

Understanding counterplay options is crucial.

How do you counter play conditions with kits? You have 2 separate kits that each cleanse 1 condition. One requires you can move, the other requires ground targeting.

By the way, how do you lecture everyone on counter play after you already stated you have little to no experience on the engineer, so little play even, that you admit you do not even have a build to run.

Again, I am not suggesting it is not a solid profession, as it is. But your making claims based on theory and not experience.

So what was the point of your thread?

You bring up no issues. No specific direction, then go on to suggest you have no specific experience or knowledge on the profession. Yet you attempt to lecture others on the profession. It feels solid at first, and I am not saying it isn’t, I love the profession. I am just suggesting that you will find it is far from perfect. Sure it went through a band wagoner meta rush with those following the rush, but there is a reason it was the second least played profession in the ToL.

Oakwind.6187:

How hard is it to understand that requiring major investment into Soul Reaping just for a short stability isn’t an option when the traits are all over the tree anyway?

You mean “you feel” it isn’t an option. It is in fact, an option. If it is not an option, then it means it is literally unattainable. Similarly to how this is your opinion, and not an actual fact.

Oakwind.6187:

You have to have certain things to make a build work, and Soul Reaping is the least desirable because of how poorly the traitlines are designed.

Then suggest how to fix the trait line, instead of demanding changes that most players feel are out of balance.

Oakwind.6187:

Death Shroud isn’t nearly as useful as people make it seem without heavily traiting for its use, thus making you quite bad in teamfighting. The low armor of the Necromancer makes them susceptible to burst, even if you have 3s of Stability. Speaking of Foot in the Grave, it does give you 3s of Stability but it does not break stuns. This is why people want an active button to press to gain a little Stability, so they can strategize when facing a hammer-swinger.

Thus use more utilities that break stun, just lick the other professions with limited or no stability do. It isn’t very reasonable to complain about stuns if your not using the stun breakers you already have.

Then again you mention team fights, but forget that you have team members designed to give you stability. Yet your suggestions makes that irrelevant and limits there value. That is not a very team oriented mentality at all if you ask me.

Oakwind.6187:

At the moment it’s a checklist: Do you have full LF, and is he bad? If either is no, you’re going to have a very bad time. If you want to capitalize on the 3s Stability, you can’t stay in Death Shroud. You flick it on and off, thus losing any absorption it could otherwise provide. It’s not good functionality. And yes I’m going to refer to Balanced Stance because kitten you, that’s why.

So what does a warriors balance or imbalance have to do with the necromancer?

Oakwind.6187:

The elite skills that grant the Necro Stability are used for entirely other reasons, and they disable heal and the utilities for the duration. The Stability is lost the moment you cancel the transform.

Yet it is stability, in a long duration, that is available to other professions in such durations, and posters claim the profession has no stability.

What are these “other reasons” necro stability is used for? I was under the understanding that stability negated non condition control effects. I would love to have you explain how that is used for “entirely other reasons” as you suggest.

Shockwave.1230:

I wonder why people wouldn’t be using Smoke Bomb from the Bomb Kit, or Healing Mist from the Elixer Gun, or Gear Shield from the Tool Kit to counter CC’s.

That would most certainly be ideal. Assuming someone is using one or all of those kits. Lets use Earthshaker for an example as an incoming CC attack. You have 3/4s cast time. Which means your reflexes must twitch immediately to the key to swap to appropriate kit, then immediately on to the block key. That is rather difficult. Not impossible, but extremely difficult.

Smoke bomb requires the same function, only it has a 1/2s cast time just to set the bomb, then the standard 1.5s fuse on the bomb. It seems you are not familiar at all with the profession. So I let me try to educate you. All bombs, even the auto-attack have a fuse delay. Thus any and all bombs, cannot be used any faster then 1.5s-2s.

Healing Mist, yes it is a stun breaker. It obviously will work. One thing most do not know about the engineer, is that it has no cool down on a stun breaker below a 40s CD. Every profession besides the necro has faster cooldowns of 30s avaliable on stun breaks.

Shockwave.1230:

I’m pretty sure I’m able to remove 2 conditions every 20 seconds with healing turret, you just have to spam like crazy to get that effect immediately is all, I might be noticing things wrong though.

Well first you have to place it. Then you have to activate it. It has an after cast time. Just so you know. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that you are getting all of your information from the wiki, as you appear quite uncertain in your lingo with your comments. How many hours do you have on the profession?

Shockwave.1230:

I could take Elixer gun to remove another condition too, and remove conditions from allies, which is a nice bonus.

Yes. Again it requires swapping to the kit, targeting, and has an after cast, as a physical projectile must lob to your target area. And then the condition removal is only on impact. So you have to be in the circle when it last. So thee are a few details and multiple actions that must be performed.

Shockwave.1230:

If I have the Transmute trait that’s another condition too, but that depends on the build. All in all though being able to remove 2-4 conditions every 15-20 seconds from myself is really solid. Slightly better than what’s viable for the Mesmer, plus I can counterplay the active mesmer weapon sets! Yay!

Solid for what? What are you doing with 1/2 your build in support? What build are you using? And what for?

Shockwave.1230:

The condition removal comparison wasn’t meant to be impressive, it was compared to a Mesmer lol, which has extremely underwhelming condition management for viable PvP builds.

I apologize if you misunderstood. But when you make a thread , it is necessary to keep it on topic. This is about engineer kits, it has nothing to do with mesmer. Although, a mesmer can use their torch skills to remove 2 conditions every 24s. And never have to invest in a utility skill of any kind. In my experience (200ish+ hours on my mesmer here). I find memser to be better at dealing with conditions do to the removal system as well as natural avoidance. but this is just my opinion based on my personal experience.

Shockwave.1230:

I’m highlighting some of the pros and cons of condition/cc removal while continuing to point out that an engi can always counterplay any profession’s active weapon set via their instant swapping available in engi kits.

The why do you not list all of the pros or all of the cons? Again, I have to ask, how many hours of game play do you have on the profession? It appears toy have little to none. Particularly when asking why players do not use skills with 1/2s cast time and 1 -1 1/2 after cast before activating, in twitch reflexive situations.

All and all, I get the impression that some engineers must be dominating you on your mesmer. I am sorry for that. We would be glad to educate you on the profession. To do so, though, it may help if you approached the subject without making assumptions, and willing to learn.

The main downside of the mechanic of requiring kits for a weapon swap is that it takes up a slot that other profession can utilize a stun break or a condition cleanse. Thus the engineer has to chose between a very weak weapon set, designed so to balance towards kits, or to lose a slot for the stun breaker or cleanse.

justjon.3189:

Lord vs Zergs

• When fighting a lord with many people when you do damage you sometimes do not get credit due to them dropping in health fast.
• When having a zerg go after your lord it melts so fast there isn’t enough time to get there to defend (sometimes).

Solution - Have lords scale like most world bosses do. This allows for ample time for people to defend and gives those there a chance to do enough damage to get credit.

I agree. I see no reason why lords couldn’t scale up or down depending on enemies with in a certain proximity. It is possible that there are reasons this does not exist or some problematic issues with it, but I cannot think of any at the moment.

justjon.3189:

Coverage Issues

• Right now fights are ultimately based off who has more numbers and coverage.
• If you have even coverage and rule during that time your work can easily be nulled during your servers off time making it feel pointless.

Solution
When maps have even fights scale ppt worth higher. When maps have uneven coverage scale ppt worth less.

The reason I feel this works is because it still rewards work but scales the worth depending on how much effort was needed. So if server A has a map que and server b and c have no one on they had little resistance and just took whatever they want which should weigh as high as taking it with every server map qued. This also would allow servers during their prime times ability to make up for lack of coverage during off times.

An absolutely abysmal idea. Why should I be punished simply because no one on your server is in WvW? This is a horrible idea that only punishes players and minimizes their efforts because of a problem on another server. I can not think of a worse way to handle this.

justjon.3189:

Spreading People Out

• Servers have a natural imbalance due to player base

Solution
Post player coverage stats publicly for wvw for each server. Although I know we have the forums it can be very “buying loyalty”. I think giving the stats would allow for guilds to figure out where they could be more of use if looking to move.

I do not play on my server for coverage. I play on it because my friends have been here with me since release. This is a bad idea. All it will do is further encourage band wagoners to try to transfer, by showing them in hard print whee the better off servers are.

I would love to out play Unblockable necro marks.

Why do some of you suggest we ignore the ToL in this conversation? All that says to me is that this idea is demanding they change the game based on the lowest common denominator. That sure seems like a bad idea to me. Why would you not want to balance the game to the competitive level?

As well, it is hard to take anyone seriously who says “condition spam” in some manner that attempts to imply that some condition builds attack faster or more repetitive then direct damage.

oZii.2864:

Disagree people complain about mobility because they think they should have the opportunity to kill everything they see, people complain about immunity because well it’s immunity, and survivability is apart of immunity and mobility.

Your suggesting that other classes need nerfs instead of looking at specific builds(not saying I agree anything needs nerfed based on your assumption.) You mention diamond skin elementalist as a reason elementalist needs nerf who even runs that outside of some niche roaming builds?

The bases for your claim that every other class needs nerfs is kind of weak tbh. Just because people complain or not doesn’t really mean there is a problem in the first place.

Covered it pretty good here. Everyone seems to love making threads demanding that their chosen main profession needs a buff or that all of the other professions need a nerf.

So?

Thief, ele, mesmer, and ranger are on that list, yet they do not have access to any more stability then necromancer, yet none of there damage avoidance skills function when they are CCed. Clearly they all need kitten stability skill too.

Sizer.5632:

You guys can come up with whatever distorted arguments you want to prove your point but it doesnt change the fact that things like this are the reasons a huge amount of the population of the game ignores wvw, and from talking to people I bet (but cant prove) that a majority of non forum posting players would agree.

Strange. My servers 120+ man queue’s on all 4 maps regularly, seem to disagree with you. I cannot imagine how anyone could come to the conclusion that a single food ruins any new players experience in any way. My guilds seem to have a consistent influx of 2-3 new players a week. Seems to me, a lack of players with a good attitude and willingness to educate them on the facts of the situation would be much more of problematic then anything else.

Sizer.5632:

Spvp players have to set up an entire build to get 40% condi duration, and you tell them they can spend 30+ silver (which is a lot for some, though thats not the issue) per 30 minutes to get that just from food, and theyll just laugh.

They do? My experience suggest other wise. My guild (well it is actually 3 guilds but we cannot all fit into one or two) all play sPvP, and I nevr hear any such complain from them.

IchigoHatake.5098:

First of all, unless you are in spvp people don’t use rabid, they use dire.

As said already. Prove it. I use rabid, and in my experience 3 out of 4 use rabid in WvW. This is just based on my experience though. I agree with the previous poster, I find it absurd, as well, that anyone believes they have a full scope about what happens across all the servers. I do not believe you.

IchigoHatake.5098:

condition dmg, vitality, toughness <———— see these 3 stats? This combination is extremely strong. Also using water attack proves that condi build could do the same dmg as a berserker with 3 might stacks.

Prove it. There are too many videos demonstrating the opposite. The situations your suggesting, will vary greatly depending on skill level.

IchigoHatake.5098:

The toughness they have negates most of the direct dmg,

You appear to have a massively loose definition of “most” .

HeadCrowned.6834:

You’re actually doing the same as him, cuz certain necro builds have a very limited access to Death Shroud. People see it as another 20k of health, in fact that bar is empty way more quickly than they think. Necro’s do not have continuous access to Death Shroud, while some other professions have very low cooldowns before they have access to stability again. This is one of the reasons that the downstate of necro’s is pretty bad. This topic is not meant to become the same as a warrior or guardian, but the necro have NONE access to stability. And that, you can consider out of balance.

So which necro build do you use that does not have access to DS? Unless you can explain that, Those two are no where near suggesting the same thing.

The opinion of the down state for the necromancer is subjective. Personally I feel it is the 3rd best, behind thief, and mesmer, of coarse the situation and location of where you are downed can change the value greatly.

Now as far as your statement that :

HeadCrowned.6834:

necro have NONE access to stability

Well of power pulses it.
Lich form offers 30s of stability.
Plague form grants 20s of stability.
Foot in the grave grants 3s of stability when in DS.

With boon duration build you can have 5 seconds of stability upon entering DS.

I see one of two problems here. Either you still have a bit of learning to do of your profession, which happens sometimes when you are new to it, but also means you probably shouldn’t lecture on it, or you are intentionally making false suggestions for the sake of your argument.

You claim not having stability or limited access to it is out of balance, so are you suggesting thief needs more stability? as necros have more then thief.

Abimes.9726:

i don’t see how bringing down things that are to powerful now , will restrict ppl playing other things , it’s actually the opposite if you don’t change the top tier things it make no sense to try to play less viable stuff. Just look what’s played most in therms of gear ( Strenght runes / might stacking mechs / zerker stuff ; Condiduration stacking and rabbid stuff ; cleric stuff, if there are exceptions, overall that’s the most common gear you’ll see right now)

Once again don’t get me wrong , nor the ppl who agree with this thread , we don’t wan’t everything nerfed to the floor , just adjustments.

if you could develop your ideas that would help discus about it ,i’m sure you got plenty interesting things to say , and some points i mentioned might not work as well as i think.

I cannot speak for every one else here, but my problem with your post isn’t that I disagree that changes could benefit the game. I sinply do not agree with t=what you feel needs changed, and how.

Surely I do think it will make them OP. They alreasy have advantages that other professions do not have.

Abimes.9726:

1) To much damage on everything … making dodges loses their effectiveness in team fights (Sigil of energy tends to be replaced by Air/fire) , and disabling possibilities of counter play , this doesn’t lead to healthy and skill full gaming.

I cannot agree with this. How does this disable counter play? The hard hitting skills are still the hard hitting skills. Air/fire sigils essentially give passive damage, which was previously unanimously hated. I mean which is it, do you want passive damage you cannot avoid at all, or players stacking might to boost over all damage? You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

Abimes.9726:

2) Conditions are “Out of meta” at High level Pvp , but on the other hand they are still a pain in low lvl Pvp . The balance led to this with MASSIVE condition removal on nearly every class ( which ,when well played ,makes conditions less useful in high end pvp) , but on the other hand conditions became incredibly spamy , with broken mechanics like fear/imob stacking (+ condition coverage from non-condition builds) ( which is hard to deal with for new players).

Not sure I understand the complaint here. In the above paragraph, you appear to be complaining about folks beefing up thier direct damage by what ever means they can, yet here you complain about conditions. Players will have to do damage one of the two ways. Yet you complain about both in one post.

By the way, define “spamy”? Explain how condition skills are more or less “spamy” then direct damage skills? Are you suggesting that direct damage players do not try to hit you repeatedly to inflict damage, while condition damage users do? It appears as if that is what your implying, and that seems contradictory.

Abimes.9726:

3) Builds Tend to get less and less skill cap … this is one of the consequence of the 1) and the trait “balancing” and sigil “balancing” … i can’t explain this fully or it would takes ages but let’s take one exemple : Fire/Air sigils … they proc passively on critical hits (auto , skills, etc …) and do high damage when they proc with no possibility for the player to know when it will trigger and when he will have to dodge it .

But you just explained previously how those sigils are the minority, in trade for sigils that are more defensive. Am I misunderstanding what you are saying here?

Abimes.9726:

4) Toxicity , 3) is leading to this … it’s frustrating for players to lose trades cause of random procs , to high damage burst , condition spam AND it’s not rewarding when you kill some one . It’s truly rotten the community from the inside … look at what is going on in the mist right now ( “go back pve … Sc** Bag” , “Noob Faceroll class” , etc, etc, etc, etc)

Are you suggesting Anet or the game design is in some way responsible for rude comments and insulting behavior from players? That seems like a very unrealistic and unconnected to the truth of the matter. Are you reporting those players for rude behavior and unnecessary insults towards other players?

Abimes.9726:

What should be donne ?!

It’s hard to say, but i think some Balance test servers for teams would be nice.
Doing a reset and bring the game back to the May 2012 meta and buffing the things that needed a buff ( Necro / war / thief) without over buffing them … and then maybe polish the balance and try to develop traits around new builds.

Well, test server availability might be nice, but your limitation of “for some teams” is a terrible terrible idea. Everyone needs access to the test server or no one should have it.

As far as may 2012, there were tons of threads complaining at the time. Whose version of balance do we listen too? There are many people posting here, and they all want a voice to be herd. The issue is, really, why would they listen to one over another?
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Bhawb.7408:

dancingmonkey.4902:

Yeah, for as much as you guys have started stressing that this issue needs to be balanced based on group dynamics, why does the Hambow trumps me become relevant at all?

As I have seen in 7 different post, players suggesting they get bounced around like a ping pong ball, then why is their group guardians/warriors not helping you with that? Why do we need to redesign caster skills because your heavies are playing poorly?

Because not a single other class relies 100% on the rest of their team doing their job to not be useless.

Neither does the necromancer. Necromancers have the job of spreading conditions, doing damage, and very importantly stripping boons. As well as CC with fear.

I am sorry, but I fail to see how your ability to do that, relies on your team. On my necromancer, I am not 100% replying on my team to do my job. I do appreciate the support we give each other.

My main job is to use intelligent placement of my wells to strip boon of my foe and turn them into conditions, while turning my allies conditions into boons. My secondary job is to use my cripples and blinds and immobilize to aid in control of the flow of battle.

I do not need more of my own stability to do this.

Ozzy Toxin.3074:

this is about team play not 1v1. in a 1v1 situation necro can beat other classes like warrior with a lot of effort and experience with our skills

Exactly. Which is why you get your stability from warriors, guardians, engineers, your team mates.

Ozzy Toxin.3074:

as soon as you put necro in a team situation we become useless little more then a ping pong ball but when you put engineer in a team situation they are far from useless, sometimes being the only reason a point was kept during that fight

How so? When your team cast stability, it is AoE. You literally have no more or less resistance to this as anyone else.

Sarrs.4831:

Popular necro builds don’t really have all that much blind. As far as I know, the standard condi necro build only has Throw Bugs and Signet of Spite; Throw Bugs is more often used to flip conditions back, and Signet of Spite is used for aggressive pressure. The two other skills which apply decent Blind are Well of Darkness and Plague Form; I don’t think Well of Darkness is that popular, and Plague of Darkness pretty much tosses out your offensive capabilities. Haunt is right out.

So the “popular” build do not have blind, how does this justify changing a skill entirely? Personally, I find it extremely unreasonable to claim that necros need warrior/guardian level stability because players lack originality and use only popular builds.

Sarrs.4831:

That leaves 2 dodges every 20 seconds. Necromancers have no access to evade frames and no access to vigor. Popular CC centric builds have more control skills than that available to them in that time; most notably, Hambow can put out 4 in that time, with 2-3 Earthshakers, Staggering Blow and Backbreaker. This gets even worse in a group fight where there could be multiple sources of CC bouncing around, let alone coordinated CC.

So if you feel you need more dodges, run a sigil or run that increases endurance. Change you build to add blinds. Personally I have no problems with hambow warriors. So you get no sympathy from me there. If you are not willing to stray away from “the popular” builds and build for what you need, then you deserve what you get. Asking Anet to redesign skills based on your reluctance to step away from the meta, is not the solution.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Well of Darkness, due to its long cooldown and delay on the pulse, is a strategic move. Powerful, but not useful for specific negation. It’s also worthless against ranged attacks.

Although it is on a bit of a long cool down, this is what I use. Reguardless of what your suggesting, it is quit usefull for negation, specifically in a D/D, in your face build. Which is what i, personally run.

HeadCrowned.6834:

Well of Darkness is a bad utility. The cooldown is way too long and even traited so that blindness also inflict chill, I chose Well of Corruption over Well of Darkness. Anyway, Necro’s have a too low amount of stunbreakers. Against a hambow warrior, a necro is very vulnerable, beïng pingponged all over the map.

So what? You guys are pounfing on other points that this should not be balanced around 1v1, then everyone starts mention hambow only. No one cares about hambows, get help from your team. If your team Is leaving the necro to take on the hambow, then the problem is that you need a better team, not that Anet needs to redesigns skills because your incapable of dealing with one build on one profession.

Cogbyrn.7283:

I’m amused that you think I’m falling victim to these condis. I’m actually using them.

Where did he/she say that?

Basically every scenario you mentions can be countered with blocks, blinds, traits, negative condition runes, and so on. Not to mention, dodges can and will avoid you landing some of them. Traits that negate cripple, chill, and immobilize. skills that break cripple, chill, and immobilize completely and so on. The list goes on and on.

The funny thing is, on the 8 professions I leveled mostly in WvW, I personally do not us either food on any of them. I tend to play a lot of power builds. I simply see no reason to nerf them, and no one is presenting facts that change that. other then from the CC aspect, which you took some effort to hash out with actual information a little bit. Thanks for that. I simply find the cripple, chill, and immobilize to easy to deal with on all the professions.

I have to agree. There are a lot of post on this topic that break it down and explain it in a reasonable, provable, and practical manner. The only reason I can see for not offering actual evidence, is either because of a direct biased dislike for the food being used against those showing bias with no evidence, or a concern for discovering ones bias is inaccurate.

As far as this discussion goes, it has been had over and over repeatedly. Everyone who claims the food is over powered refuses to offer actual evidence, while those who disagree comparative evidence.

As was pointed out earlier, since we are going on the “cause I said so” rule, as I read it stated. The food is perfectly fine because I say so. To elaborate in the nature of many on this thread, my experience with it suggest it makes congruent damage changes to that of other food. thus no changes are necessary.

In my experience, you have way more threads and post that demand or expect changes to their preferred profession. In many cases, they could care less if they are balanced request or not, nor do they care, in many cases, if they are even reasonable.

Similar to how we had threads for months and months demanding they change fights such as Tequatl, to be much more difficult. Although thousands of players kill Tequatl daily, you see a new thread almost daily, complaining how it is entirely too difficult and should be reverted.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

But in a MMORPG, where you can challange other players, balance is a crutial part. And GW2 never left the beta balancewise.

This is assuming of coarse, that we take your word or the words of the very very vocal minority, that there are any real balance concerns.

I just read a thread on the general forums, from a guy who is new to the game. Upon trying to pick a profession to start, he was baffled. As he pointed out, every professional sub-forum was bogged down with thread after thread that suggested the profession that was the subject of each thread needed this or that. To new players each professional sub-forum makes it appear every profession is under powered.

My experience after having leveled all professions to 80, is that for the most part, all of the profession are fairly solid. With very few exceptions of limited aspects of a profession here or their having minor issues.

All clear signs that the game as a whole is in a solid place, with the problem being a very select few who perceive a problem. As well, those select few have a habit of attacking those who do not agree, or spamming post after post of very anecdotal situations.

Balance is subjective anyway. Levels of perception vary based on skill level as well. I can honestly say that I have played with some of the most adamant suggesters of imbalance, some of them on this thread. My experience with them often displayed very poor active discussions in their practices in game play. Yet they come to the forums and blame balance or the game.

Overkillengine.6084:

Nah the reason to nerf them is because the global duration foods offer a disproportionate benefit when compared to trait lines and other foods, regardless of the game mode they affect.

If they only mess up an unimportant section of the game then it won’t be terrible to have them adjusted to sane values.

Now global cleanse spam is another issue entirely.

Prove it. Do a break down of how much more condition damage is done for condi skills across a few professions and figure up what percent that increases the skulls damage. Then do the same thing with other offensive foods and skills that relate to them.

For example, someone recently did this with every engineer skill. The end result was that condition DPS over 60s increased 9.7%. The DPS of direct damage over 60s increased 10.1%. The gear was dire to soldier comparison.

I never checked the numbers on this case myself, because I feel the food is finw. Based on my experience. But since your making claims, what did your test show? Mind sharing your testing process, while your at it? Thank you.

Whether or not the turret dies isn’t very relevant, because you trait it to AoE knock back when it is destroyed.

Loco.4561:

Right then, so according to you the way to beat condition builds is to stack more vitality and more condition removal…it is now MANDATORY to use condition removal skills in every single build you use for pvp. And what happens when you stack more vitality and use condition removal utils/traits…?? Your damage goes down, so how are you going to break the tank of that condition player who only has to use ONE stat to give him high sustained damage and then he uses 2 defensive stats?

And? You have no right to complain about something that you do not take full initiative toward countering. So what if your damage goes down? If you building to counter another build, which you are, then you are neutering it fully.

As well, you remark about one stat, is inaccurate. Before you can get on the path of victory, you must first get yourself out of denial my friend.

Loco.4561:

How are you supposed to break his bunker when you are FORCED yourself to spec just to stay alive? And then there is the matter of condition removal, most condi players can stack conditions faster than you can clear them or your char doesn’t have a lot of access to condi removal, so what are you supposed to do then?

You should grab a dictionary and look up the word “forced” some time.

What are you supposed to do? Well for starters, I suggest less complaining and try more builds to counter what you complain about. For all we know, your play style may be a problem, your builds could be lacking, or your not even using the dodge button. There has to be some root problem, as many of us have over come this meta easily. Perhaps you could link your build that your having trouble with and we can offer you some guidance.

A good start would be to listen to this guys advice

randomly.6395:

That’s the point. You aren’t supposed to be able to clear every condition all the time. Otherwise you’d be able to shrug off any condition user. The point is smart use of those condition removals.

I swear, people on these boards think they should be able to ignore any condition user with cleanses alone.

Right, because it makes perfect sense to use warrior and thief as the pinnacle of balance. Seriously, if your using this two professions and their functionality as examples to define a need for changes, no one can have a serious debate on this matter.

DonEllz.6312:

Condition spamming is just as fun as the “perma stealth” thief or CC warrior fun that plague WvW and sPvP. Quite frankly i like spamming conditions on incapable players but i also like fighting condition classes because when i win i know the other player is QQing like crazy

There are many classes with annoying mechanics now.. even full celestial DD eles do insane damage aswell as crazy condi damage due to being able to keep 20-25 stacks of might in the course of a fight. All that needs to be done is find a way to beat them.

If you describe your play style as “spamming” in any fashion, then I am quit sure it is as you say, that you beat incapable players.

bigmonto.4215:

Wait what? I doubt it. You should try that next time. Be a full zerker against a PU Mesmer, or Necro or Engineer or anyone, they will just put condition on you and kite you around until you die.

Hack my conditional warrior can dish out around 4k worth of damage per sec on conditions alone. Not only that I have around 25k health with 3.2k armor + around 6k on-demand healing every 20s plus >400 healing per sec. Even if I can’t face tank you, I still kite you around with a LB. You have to dodge everything perfectly to win the battle.

Your PvP arena or mine? I accept your challenge. When do you wish to do this?

bigmonto.4215:

Once again, try that. My guess it you never try it.

They don’t call it a conditional bunker for nothing. Both a Knight’s gear Guardian and a Zerker/Assassin thief has no chance killing a good conditional bunker period.

Maybe you have no chance, period. Very many of the rest of us appear to be quit capable at it. I know I am, and I see other her pointing out they do.

Hmm, I wonder what the difference is from others and yourself is?

I just have to shake my head when some poster here incorrectly state that weakness doesn’t negate any thing. It very literally completely negates ferocity and any trait that procs on crit.

Us necros not only have the ability to completely negate conditions, but also turn the damageback on the oopponent for additional damage. These are facts, not opinions.

The ability to literally negate conditions and cries is very strong. To suggest we need to have the ability to fully negate CC as well Is not reasonable.

I am sorry, but I can not see the logic of wanting to stack the best condition and boon corrupting/stripping profession, with boons. That is unreasonably out of balance as I see it.

With 20% from water + 30% from the trait line, You reach 50% boon duration. To me, that appears to be where Anet feels it should be, and personally that seems good to me.

The problem is, when boon duration gets to high, it allows stability entirely too much uptime to fully negate a lot of CC builds.

It also seems to me that with the re balance to ferocity, it limits protection a little better. Your already taking less maximum damage, there for longer protection is not needed.

With those points in mind, the current state of boon duration seems to be right where it needs to be, and I find the complaints unjustifiable.

I do not feel we need more stability ever since they added the stun breaker to the EG tool belt skill.

Mostly I feel we just need a little bit more in condition removal. Personally I want a little more toward removing cripple, chill, and immobilize. I have little trouble out of stuns.

Having thought about it a bit, I think I might like this idea. It would give a lot more value to traits that pierce. It would make “coated bullets” on the engineer and “Piercing Arrows” on the ranger, very valuable.

Awful at everything else? Sure if you say so. I though I am willing to bet you have never actually tried it, so your making bias and subjective claims based on assumption, and not speaking from any point of fact or experience, but that is just my educated guess.

No one is asking what it “sounds like” they are asking what works. I am simply informing the OP what I know works from my experience. As a commander on the server with the most weeks in first place since the games release, I feel that does qualify my experience and scope with its use. I am not saying anyone has to use it. I am simply saying I know from my personal experience that it works.

You claim it “can be destroyed” by any power build, anyone can be outplayed. A build in itself will not kill me.

As far as your PvP statement, I do not recall stating anything about PvP. I was answering in the scope of WvW. I thought the mention of food somewhat specified that. I can be more clear for you next time.

I am sorry of your skill level differs from mine, or you prefer different builds, but your are simply mistaken in what you seem to believe I do or do not do with this build in game.

Not sure why your being so abrasive and trying to make this personal, but good luck anyway.

Solution:
Attune to fire/Earth/air.

This pretty much right on. The OPS request seems irrational to me. Similarly if you gave engineers elixir gun tranquilizing dart more damage, you would suggest it is OP.

Expecting support kits or support attunement/weapons is just unreasonable over reaching

If you feel melandru+lemongrass is niche, that is your business. It is extremely common on the top tier servers. Anyway, try to criticize all you like. That is your right. But it is extremely effective to negate 50%+ of the condi warrior, perplexity engineers, perplexity thieves, blackwater style mesmers, misc. condi necros, and the list goes on. If you call that niche, that is fine with me. Seems a bit odd to me that we have a thread in which posters want to argue a well adopted soulution, but to each their own.

I can agree that “thematically” torment sounds necromantic, and that an option might be to take bleed off of a skill and put the equal or lesser amount of torment damage in its place. I certainly do not feel it is necessary by any means though.

I do not get all of this unreasonable expectation that we should lose naturally to a necro. I run melandru+lemon grass and neuter the necro just by showing up.

I use the stuns/knock backs that I can, such as BoB, and Rifle #4. I do not kill them quickly, but I win way way more then I lose with them. I simply have to wear them down. I feel having 15 in Alchemy for transmute to be handy as well.

I see we a great deal of claims from Bobomb and Hoopa for example. How many hours do either of you have on your engineers and necromancers ? As I feel experience In the two professions you use as examples is very relavent, perhaps starting there would aid us in helping you becoming more familiar with those two profession in the aspects that are relavent to the discussion.

hooma.9642:

see thats your total mistake that i mentioned. i talked about reality that every spvp/tpvp match tells you.. not some stupid dps compares against a target golem or your calculations based on numbers… there is to many u cant cover.. u seem not to understand that.

Wait, so now your suggesting that having the same toughness/health level on separate damage types, while putting out the same damage, doesn’t matter?

hooma.9642:

u can compare your dmg as long as u want. it doesnt matter. u and all your companions seems not to understand this. as long condis can BURST its broken. simple is that. the rate of application on necro and engi is broken, cause thats the only both classes that can condi-BURST… thats not a problem of condis or power and has nothing to do with dmg that different dmg-types or build do. its just a matter of possible negating and counterplay.

Conditions by definition cannot burst. This is why they are called damage over time. When they can literally apply direct damage as fast as they can apply condition damage there is no problem. You seem to be mistaken about where the lack of understanding is coming from.

hooma.9642:

and to repeat there is absolut no counter*PLAY* involved against condi-builds. either you BUILD to counter or not. there is no middle way. either u have enough condi-cleanse to complete negate his build or not. its the way like diamond skin work just in a different scale. u seems not to understand it.

Wait, even though someone literally just posted the same necro with the same build fighting two different warriors with the same build, and displayed how one got destroyed without proper counter play, and the other thrived with counter play, your still suggesting there is no counter play. We are literally showing you video proof that opposes your statements. Yet, your counter to those facts are to repeat the same thing you have already posted?

hooma.9642:

it doesnt matter if u cant apply any condi or i just have always more cleanse than u can apply and can outheal the remaining dmg. the fact that my BUILD simple counters yours, without any possible way u could turn that outcome, with more a less passive, is a counter BUILD that should not be in GW2. in the most cases its simply the other way around. hard to understand or what?

You do not have to like it. The fact is, on a fundamental level, builds are relevant. Name us a single MMO in which builds are 100% irrelavent.

hooma.9642:

so what should your opponent dodge? your marks directly placed under him? your 0-animation and 0-activation time fear? i dont even want to mention the build

This exact question is asked of direct damage attacks? This point is completely moot. If you run the necro staff in a full power build, which skills do you dodge? When a persons so bias that they pretend a path of logic only works one way, then they do not want to actually know they facts, they are then, clearly arguing out a bias based on pure conjecture.

hooma.9642:

yeah your opponents stay in your well in tpvp… good joke. maybe on your level of play. but on my level is actual counterplay.

Aren’t you going back on your previous statement? Previously you specifically stated that counter play is irrelevant, and they offered 2 videos disproving that. As well, your level, as you state it, has counter play but you cannot counter conditions? Must be a much lower level then mine. I have no serious issue counter playing necros and engies on my level.

Brando.1374:

http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3848362 power valk amulet
rotation:
SoS for % damage modifier, WoS+WoC, flash ds for fury, AA chain like a boss. 5 actions.

Yeah, I run D/D on my necro (freaks people out in WvW because it is so foreign to them.) and in PvP often. D/D soldiers out the condition builds by 15ish%.

The other funny thing here is when posters mention grenade engineers. Literally only 2 out of 5 grenades do damage. One of them took a 40% condition damage nerf in the last update. Grenades absolutely scale better with power. Bomb kit scales great with power. it also only has 2 out of 5 bombs that do condition damage.

bobomb.5209:

Terrahero.9358:

bobomb.5209:

Terrahero.9358:

bobomb.5209:

Make an only power “power” build and see how well you fare against condition builds. No precision, no ferocity.

Pretty well actually.

When you play power without prec or ferocity your likely a bunker. Then its on you to make sure you cover your bases.
My d/d ele doesnt have any particular problem with condition builds at all. Neither does my guardian.

Especially not bunker condition builds. They have no burst at all, i can easily and constantly outheal their predictable damage.

So you can kill them?

Condition bunkers? Ofcourse not, dont be silly… Its a bunker. Bunkers are builds to endure heavy damage, if a bunker dies to the pressure from another bunker it wasnt really a bunker.

We just stand their slapping eachother untill one of us gets bored and leaves.

In which case the power in your “power” build might aswell be condition. Because condition is more effective as a bunker than a power bunker. Condition bunkers can actually kill people since their damage revolves around one stat, where as power builds revolve around three.

Conditions are more effective? Care to provide any evidence to support this? As of now, your only making claims based on the meta. Yet all the video comparisons posted previously, and skill damage comparisons show that as a whole, power bunkers and condition bunkers have congruent damage out puts.

The problem is, players will build to counter direct damage or to stack damage skills themselves, but players almost unanimously do not build specifically to counter conditions. Instead of building to counter conditions, they claim the are OP or lobby for nerfs to them.

hooma.9642:

quick question? do u want BUILD wars?

the actual game is simply BUILD wars regarding conditions. either u have enough cleanses and lack defense for other types of dmg or u havent.. there is not middle way, where 1-2 cleansing-skills/traits are enough to somehow outplay a condition build like necro or engi.

on the other side i can outplay a stunlock warrior with 0-1 stunbreaks as example.

in sum conditions are fine except the application from necros and engis is broken!

How are they broken?

Simply making a random claim with absolutely no proof to offer, over and over and over again, is counter productive. As I see it, it is simply a demonstration of your claim being made on blind conjecture. Because if it were the case, you would present some sort of evidence.