Guild Wars 2

With traits such as Synaptic Overload, I would much prefer a negative effect of my opponent rather then a very short boon on myself.

I prefer the Bunker down they are offering over your idea here Chaith. There are already too many traits for the FT.

Chaith.8256:

Having Gadgets at the core of an Engineer build is still a horrible decision, even when taken with the Adept, Speedy Gadgets. There’s no playstyle adjustment as a result of this trait, I feel that the Gadget traitline needs a hero.

I completely agree here. I really want to run a gadget build. But compared to other traits and skills, everything falls short with them.

Personally, I feel if they take vulnerability off of analyze and put it on the utility goggles proper, and changes analyze to gas mask – remove 3 conditions ………giving gadgets the new AED heal, condition removal and stun breakers in this utility subset, then the trait they are suggesting might be a nice investment with them.

I do not feel there is anything wrong with stability as it is now. Stability does not ignore all control effects. As well, boon stripping is a counter to stability anyway. Strip boons > Stability > CC

style.6173:

WvW is already a condi bunker meta.

These new ferocity changes should NOT apply to WvW.

Umm no it isn’t.

What always makes me laugh at folks like this, is that there are how many servers? 56?? and unknowledgable players like this might have experience with 6 or so of them??? Then think they can stand here and tell us what every server does. Personally I am on JQ and this is not the meta I see in the least. You appear to be completely unaware of what goes on in most servers I guess.

Manuhell.2759:

And then any AoE comes – quite likely, if all those players are together in a point you’ve basically drawn a giant target upon yourselves – and you can say goodbye to the turrets, as they will still be made of paper, if anything changed about it. As they haven’t said anything about making them sturdier, it will be probably so.

And? If your dumb enough to set up this way and invite an AoE attack, then that is what you get. It seems rather stupid to me to suggest this is an inherent turret flaw.

Tots.3056:

You’re missing the point. Everyone and their mother agrees that condi is the way to go.

No one is missing any point. your simply manufacturing ideas for your own agenda, and doing so out of an apparent lack of knowledge. It is a fact that as a whole condition builds do not do more damage then direct damage builds. What tends to occur is that players stack more defensive skills that do not cleanse conditions, then cry when they are beat by conditions. Simply because many started using condition builds because they read on the forums that it was the meta, doesn’t make them superior. I run a power engineer and stack the cleanses I can. I am certain that if the enemy condition roamers in WvW could, they would message me with hate after all of there deaths that leave them confused. The problem has nothing to do with condition but the fact that, in general, the community doesn’t build to counter them.

Tots.3056:

The point I’m trying to make with this thread is that there are things that require more attention than class balancing. I.E the little bugs like mist form sometimes being able to be CC’d through, or Illusionary leap not working on hills, or blink/lightning flash/shadowstep rubberbanding you back to the spot you used it from. And so on…

So, how many bug reports have you personally put in on those instances when they occur??? It is my experience that posters on the forums here are real good at complaining about issues they personally took zero actions to correct.

Tots.3056:

If anything in any class needs balancing then nerfing crit damage shouldn’t be at the top of the list.

Why not???Those who have tested it know that direct damage builds as a whole (even necros) do more damage then condition builds when compared with congruent offensive levels of gear. I am going to guess you didn’t actually know that though, because posters here have a bad habit of simply regurgitating what others have posters over the option of actually testing something themselves and knowing actual facts.

Tots.3056:

I’m not QQing about condi’s. They are easy to deal with for experienced players. I’m just using it as an example for comparison.

Then you either need to re-read your own post or re-write it, because your clearly QQing, and doing so on mis-information. Particularly in your intentionally misleading title.

Tots.3056:

And why even care about crit damage? It’s a lot of fun, it’s more fast paced and it’s how I enjoy playing this game. I’m sure I’m not the only one who agrees.

Because it was literally not functioning properly, as well as being over powered across the board for all professions from a numerical damage capability stand point.

Or what is worse, they think they know what the community wants, or have this disillusion such as swagger there of what the players want or what we need. I mean he is justifying blind complaints about skills no one has used yet.

I love that the general population is grown and Anets profits are out pacing projections with this game. Yet clowns try to convince us it is broken.

There is nothing wrong with stealth, conditions, cc or what ever kb/kd is supposed to mean.

Players all seem to have some perceived reality of what needs to be done and makes post talking down to anyone who doesn’t think it is broken as they do.

I think oZii’s comments are fairly accurate as well, to the communities irrational behavior.

Yeah. most of the post I am reading are blatant and shameful ignorance. I am not being insulting. I mean blatantly ignorant in the truest definition of the word. Thread after thread telling us how things they have never used work.

There have literally been thousands of post since the live stream of geniuses informing us of how skills, traits, sigils, and runes will work, that they have never used. Not to mention they completely ignore the fact that they have no idea what other traits or skill changes are coming.

Personally I have a lot of fun with the game and its content. It is a great medium to have fun with my friends. The best part are the posters who dislike the game or content, and try to make it there goal to convince us we should dislike it too. It is always fun to read post like that, they assume you must feel the same way they do. They speak of there opinion as fact. It is all very comical.

Distaste.4801:

Well to be fair that traitline is also for conditions. What irks me is they finally nerfed dhumfire into the ground and we don’t get our other condition nerfs that were done to balance OP Dhumfire reverted.

I didn’t see the part in which they stated specifically that none of the skills or traitsof the necro would not be changing except for dhumfire. Mind posting the time stamp in which they said that??

Mbelch.9028:

That bolded text is annoying bud. I didn’t demand everything. While I think some skills like killshot backstab and a handful of others do need scaling back, I think there are more condi skills to be looked at. But yes power is getting a nerf already mate. They’ll talk about that today

Yes, yes you did. You demanded all attacks of a certain damage type be changed based on a single solitary skill.

Mbelch.9028:

all conditions need a reformation.

BTW what is wrong with kill shot? It is like the most telegraphed skill next to churning earth. That was very specifically the tradeoff they added to it.

It appears your answer to everything, is to nerf its damage. Perhaps you should broaden your scope some.

Harper.4173:

Soldier’s gear produces damage that :

1) is affected by the target’s armor.
2)can be mitigated by positioning
3)can be nullified by dodging, blocking and evading.

You need to develop a better understanding of the game bud. Condition damage can be negated by positioning just the same. dodges, blocks, and evades nullify condition damage exactly as they do direct damage. And direct damage cannot be ignored completely by cleansing, much less AoE and group cleansing.

Harper.4173:

Dire gear produces damage that is much easier to apply, doesn’t require you to stay on target 24/7 and is harder to mitigate both pre and post application.
The fact remains – doing condition damage is easier.

This doesn’t make the least bit of sense. Let me use the bomb kit for example, as it can be used as either direct damage or condition damage.
Bomb – 2100 damage instantly. One bomb = 2100 damage
Fire bomb-3s burn at 700 per burn tic. = 2100 damage.

In both cases, the attack must land. In both cases it is one attack. The only difference is that bomb is instant damage, fire bomb takes 3s to reach the same level of damage.

It is baffling that you keep swearing one is easier to land then the other.

Harper.4173:

Also – regarding condition duration – that stat is not as crucial as say critical damage in a power build since you can get said duration with food ( in WvW ) and you can also trait specific traits for this.
Not having high condition duration will hurt your damage as a condi damage dealer less than not having critical damage on a power damage build.

Prove it. Because informed players who have experimented this, have posted videos of damage comparisons proving you wrong. Your making a lot of claims with no facts or evidence, when many other provided evidence opposing your claims. condition duration is very literally 50% of our total condition damage. Not sure how 50% of total damage can even be confused for less important, but it is a bit of a testament to your lack of understanding here.

And the food is irrelevant on its own. You have to break thresholds of duration to even raise the damage. For example, engineer pistol auto attack has a 2s bleed. you have to hit 50% to increase it at all

Harper.4173:

Precision for on crit conditions aren’t really factored in here – since we also have a similar situation with power builds gaining might and whatnot on crit.

Umm, you do understand that might effects condition damage as well right……/Slaps fore head and sighs……..They scale equally.

Harper.4173:

Regarding condition damage application and when it does damage – i agree with you – but the psychological aspect you were so quick to point out is exactly what makes it more effective. People are worse at countering it – making it more effective overall.

Ahh, so I see your coming around to the facts that the damage is congruent and is only perceived as greater, as I have been stating to you all along.

Harper.4173:

Regarding meeting up – how would we do that exactly? WvW? sPVP?

WvW. probably after the season. Some guildies offered to donate to a transfer to a sever opposing yours then back again.

By “many” you must mean “a very select few”……..On the same note, there are some select equally high damage, direct damage attacks. By your definition, those select few direct damage attacks justify claiming that direct damage needs a nerf. You would have been okay, had you said “X skill” needs to be toned down, but instead you took the path of demanding all damage types of that skill must be nerfed, based on that skill alone. To make it worse, you stuck to that illogical line of thinking.

By the way, how many times have you sworn the post you were making at the time was the last one you would ever make on this thread?

Harper.4173:

It takes a contribution of THREE attributes : power, precision and critical damage for a direct damage build to deal its maximum DPS output.

And? It takes condition damage, precision(needed to proc the multiple on crit condition procs), and condition duration. Those are *+3+*stats as well, needed to maximize condition damage.

Harper.4173:

For a condition damage class the only attribute you actually need is condition damage.
Read the wiki – it’s all there.

I have read it. The difference is, I understand it, you apparently do not. Doing damage and maximizing damage are different. Post all the wiki links you like. I have leveled all 8 professions in WvW and sat with friends on different servers, testing professions and their builds in full soldiers and full dire gear. You can like it or not that is your issue, but soldiers gear direct damage builds do just as much damage as dire gear condition builds. It is documented, and fairly well known to be true. But please, feel free to debate it, argue it, and hate it, all you like. You have yet to offer an actually fact.

Harper.4173:

Here’s another idea – if you’re so hot on spreadsheets and videos proving your points can you please post and provide them or are we just supposed to take you up on your word because you’re not spreading misinformation.

Absolutely. I would love to link those threads to you. In the spirit of self education, I ask that you provide damage comparison of equivalent gear on at least on profession or a video of it. It is much better to learn for yourself. I have posted several videos of damage out put comparisons of dire gear versus soldiers gear, so I already know which one will generally out damage the other. As well, clearly you haven’t actually tested anything yourself or taken any time to look up previously established test.

So, as soon as you post a video or damage comparison of any kind yourself, I will gladly direct you to some others.

Harper.4173:

Here’s the deal – condition damage is a fire and forget weapon – while direct damage requires you to actually constantly apply said damage.

Ahh, you truely have no idea how it works then do you. A direct damage hit does all the damage up front, condition attacks do the similar damage, only they do it over time. Here is a simple explaination from another that might aid your understanding.

Carighan.6758:

I think this is largely a cognitive issue.
Players see direct damage attacks taking 50% off their health in 3 hits. They react, they heal, they shield, whatever.

Players see a condition damage attacker apply conditions. Their health pool is – at that moment – ok. So they don’t do anything until their health drops to 50%. However unlike direct damage, the moment you need to react is once again when the damage is applied, not after it has given the enemy the momentum they want.

So basically, we as players don’t take conditions serious enough.
I did however like the idea of giving condition/regen markers to the health orb. Show as a shaded red the amount of health you’d be at if all conditions currently on you run their course, and show as another green shade the amount of health you’d gain if regen effects + currently casting healing skill finish.

That might help newcomers take conditions much more serious the moment they’re applied, instead of when it’s too late.

Harper.4173:

A soldier’s player will almost always lose against a dire player in any form of pvp because of said situation. Conditions can easily be applied and with no means of taking them off they’ll keep on ticking and killing you – ignoring any armor you have on whatsoever.

Maybe for you. I have no trouble with them. As I build with as many condition counters as I do direct damage counters.

Just let me know when, I would be glad to meet you on my direct damage engineer(one of the professions with more limited condition clearing) against what ever profession you have leveled and in dire gear. I will wear soldiers. We can record it and post it as evidence to our respective arguments. Sound fair?

Carighan.6758:

Harper.4173:

Please stop pretending you know what the classes are " supposed to be".
Warriors aren’t supposed to be weak defense – they’re supposed to have little group oriented skills and low support capability.

Please stop pretending you know what classes are “supposed to be”.

You’re guessing the same way the guy you quoted was. Unless that was sarcasm and I missed the point, in which case, apologies. :P

Well I can tell all of you what they are supposed to be. I admit, I do love when people claim what a profession is or is not supposed to be or be capable of, when they have no actual idea. These boards are plague with the disease that is posters pretending they have a clue, then sending the infection further by acting as if there completely made up, conjured, and purely conjectured statement were actually fact.

The warrior is quit literally supposed to be

Warrior

We want the Warrior to be capable of good melee damage in a sturdy body. They can still do some decent damage at range, but they aren’t as good at it as the Ranger (with their pet). They have a hard time taking enemy boons down, and instead, have to just go through them with raw force. They may have a hard time with enemy conditions, and may need to ask for ally help in order to keep themselves free of hampering conditions.

I bolded and underlined the sections in which they completely veered away from there own philosophies and descriptions.

Source:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-December-14-2012/first#post999247

Speaking of mi-informations, this guy is a treasure trove of it

The problem is that in order to deal direct damage you have to have 3 stats : Power, precision and critical damage. This means you can deal most damage as zerker and as a consequence have little to no resistance.

Actually this is not true. The problem with conditions is that posters (clearly yourself included) make these comments without any actual facts.

Harper.4173:

However – to deal the most condition damage you just need one stat : condition damage – which means you can now stack up on vitality and toughness on top of that and there you go – the condi meta is born.

Umm no. Your simply regurgitating what you read from every other unknowledgeable poster on the boards, and you offer not a single fact to support it. Let me break this down for you, and there are damage comparisons, spread sheets, and video comparisons all over the place to prove my comments, meaning you have to intentionally turn a blind eye to the walls of fact just to make a post like you just did.

Zerker out damages is closest comparable conditions counter part Rampager
knights out damages is closest comparable conditions counter part rabid.
Soldiers out damages is closest comparable conditions counter part dire.

Harper.4173:

The real problem here is how conditions work – and how they’re so easily spammed.
Making warrior weak against conditions again fixes exactly nothing of the core problem.

Again, your completely unaware of the real problem. Because you base every thing you say on uninformed perception, and absolutely nothing on actual fact. If you disagree, I would love to see you post some damage comparison, or video comparison displaying direct damage builds being out damaged by their condition counter part, as I and many many others have posted on multiple threads in the past.

What difference does it make? We are getting 5 new grand master traits.

What amazes me is that the “IN” thing to do is make a post that offers no ideas, or interesting discussion, simply to complain and moan about which skill they mentioned.

Turrets have had great demand for fixes and changes. It is very reasonable that they would highlight them. While threads with no actual purpose or direction to positively influence discussion, such as this one, bring a dark shadow to over otherwise highlighted and positive changes. People making threads such as these should be ashamed of themselves.

Whether or not it is an, and I quote “incredibly interesting trait” is subjective, and I for one think it has potential to be very interesting indeed.

Grimreaper.5370:

I think it would make much more sense if the current OP condition spamming builds were nerfed and to compensate for the spamming capability nerf the dmg of conditions could do could be increased by longer duration. This could force less mindless condi spams and more tactic instead. Just a thought, real balancing obviously takes extensive testing.

Here we go with this illogical perspective again.

How can condition skills be called spam in relation to direct damage skills????

What conditions are you claiming as OP????

Your post is the definition of a community completely uneducated on the subject,who is regurgitating what was read in previously uneducated post.

When it is proven that direct damage skills as whole, do more damage then condition damage skills, in equivalent gear, and the skills have congruent cast and cool down times, what irrational path of logic leads you to claim they are spam, yet the direct damage skills are not?

Black Teagan.9215:

Conditions ignore the armor, isnt this enough?

Well it could be if direct damage didn’t do more damage, thus negating the effects of armor on a flat damage comparison to conditions, not to mention cleanses.

haviz.1340:

If burst > condies > bunkers > burst is true, why do burst builds have to build a lot of counters against condies (cleanses)? By the time you’re build against condies with those counters you’re no longer using a burst build and condies still have passive tankiness. In other words, to counter burst you have to pick proper trait and skills (most of it is active defense) while in order to counter burst you need to get more toughness (strictly passive and always “turned on”).

That is not true. In fact, on this thread alone we have videos of equivalent defensive and offensive gear, showing that direct damage builds do more damage.

You guys are regurgitating all of the mis-information from page one that was corrected, explained, and laid out by page 3, and spewing it back on page 4 of this thread.

Doszak.3150:

You could have started there, you know. There’s a difference between telling someone something is wrong and telling someone why.

I’ve heard that zerker is the only thing that exists for PvE, yes. Okay, so if we get past the fact that this game is fundamentally flawed and get to the part where I don’t want to get the best existing build but the best tanky build possible, which is where I wanted the discussion to start, we could talk about the best build possible within the realm of not-optimal-because-they-are-not-berserker builds.

Build how you want my friend. Might as well report those other guys for being off topic and trying to derail your thread. There is no reason to build anywhere near optimal when your playing with friends. You asked a question and they rudely ignored it, only to berate you for the question itself. Personally, I feel you would do better with celestial gear or with dire or soldiers then you would with clerics or any healing power gear.

Personally I find the scaling of healing power to be poor, and find more survivability with the gear with toughness and vitality on it.

I would suggest dropping any investment into grenades if you expect the mobs to be on you all the time anyway. Perhaps something like this:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vcAQFAUlUUpdr9ZxvLseNSE6h9vvaF9Q/V2yfKIXA-zgBBofBhKIIpmFRjt2qIasKbYqXER1BAQAu5NDs5NzQH6QH6QHa38o38o38olC4ilRA-e

I suggest something like this because you will get the most damage and heal out of being in bomb kit. Still have a bit of range with rifle if need be, but you will not get enough mileage out of pistol or shield. If you ever get into trouble, at 25% you will automatically pop a elixir S and have a free escape. The second you pop out of elixir S you can pop rocket boots to get clear and have some breathing room. The stabilizing armor + protection injection combo works for those multiple knock back and knock down enemies that mitigates all damage by 55% when your stun breaker is on cool down.

I think stances are fine. They all have a fairly long cool down. In my personal opinion, the cool down is plenty of justification, but I do feel balanced stance should be on a 60s cool down as well, to match the other stances.

Ansau.7326:

I think there’s only 2 problems with conditions:

- Some builds that can apply tons of them and continuosly.

And here is what is wrong with the inaccurate perception that folks approach this with. Because the same can be said by changing the term conditions with direct damage. Direct damage is just as spammable. Why is it a downside to conditions but okay for direct damage attacks. For example, in extremely defensive soldiers gear, a warriors hammer can easily spam 1200+ direct damage that is AoE, with no cool down. This is just the auto attack. I am sorry, but condition auto attacks cannot do that.

Clearly your not basing your comments on facts in any way, shape or form.

Ansau.7326:

- Stat combinations allows condi builds to have very high condition damage while also having high defensive stats. However, power builds have to sacrifice defensive stats to reach good numbers, as the rely on burst.

Got a fact to support this inaccurate statement?? Did you even read this thread. It is documented fact that soldiers gear, with the exact same defensive stats, do generally slightly more damage then the equivalent dire builds.

The problem is, posters such as this, never actually testing anything for themselves to be aware of actual facts or the truth of the matter, they simply regurgitate what they have read from other posters.

Mbelch.9028:

I think this is the most sensible thing said in a long time in this thread. Lol.

Now if it only, actually made sense. Unfortunately, your jumping on the band wagon again here, simply because their mis-informed perception, aligns with yours. Unfortunately, this band wagoning is purely perception based, and completely devoid of fact and information. Balancing the game on a groups perceptions verses actual comparative fact, is bad for everyone. Post such as this hurt the game in every way.

Grimreaper.5370:

My idea of class balance is a little different than make X class beat the crap out of Y class, I’m much more concerned about adding a more skillful play into the mix. And I don’t mind if there are ez mode options for the casual players, give them that handicap if they need it. Infact I think there should be that handicap for casuals (Like warrior), so more hardcore players like myself have more of a challenge.

The bold line is spewed out in post after post, by posters who have no idea what they even mean by it. If you are going to claim “they are doing it wrong” and that it should be based on “skilled play” as you call it.

What makes a skill being used “skilled play”????

Whose skill of play do we balance off of ????

Are your idea or suggestions invalid if my suggestions disagree with yours, and I repeatedly kick your tail in game? Thus my skill trumps yours.

Do you have a sigle fact, much less a list of them, that define what skilled play is????

Who defines what skilled play actually is????

The “skilled play” idea is illogical, and I have yet to see anyone define it. It is a prime example of how posters love to complain and offer fake ideas with cliche’s. simply to justify there unhelpful post of complaints.

mtpelion.4562:

Better idea: give all classes the exact same healing signet.

Honestly, I kind of wish that all signets were standardized across all professions. Would make them more “signet”-like.

How would this work? Engineers do not have signets at all. As well they probably never will, because signets directly, and specifically go against the lore of the engineer.

Every procession had alternate skills and traits that very specifically limit or void these all together. Main problem is that the OP just spews claims out there as if it means something, andmnever even attempted to offer an actual fact.

These balance forums are getting ridiculous. Every poster who makes a thread starts off with “I think” in the first sentence, and two lines later is acting as if what they are saying is suddenly an actual fact.

I see nothing wrong with chill, cripple, or immobilize, and feel that most of the complaints on them or extremely poorly thought out.

This “down state is broken” crud is utter rubbish. It is simply a cheap excuse to blame ones own failure in battle. This becomes evident when everyone blames it, yet doesn’t have a single actual fact to support the claim. Just because you dislike it’s functionality is by no means an indication of a problem.

Your way to all over the place here.

In some cases your suggesting ridiculously over powered changes to already solid skills.

In others you are suggesting braking skills with great functions.

I am not sure what your intentions were for 80% of these. Were you just kidding around and having a little fun or were you serious?

Paavotar.3971:

Most of warrior skills are close range smack it to your enemys face stuff and that’s why we need stuff to get close and personal with everyone else. Sure, there is a lot of gap closeners on warriors tools (that he can use to escape as well, yea I know).

I don’t think the “gap closers” need to be taken away in the least. The ability to use them as general movement and travel abilities or escapes is what needs to be changed.

Paavotar.3971:

But check the skillset of others. Cripples, immobs, chills pretty much everywhere and most of them being ranged ones so you can just land those from afar and keep kiting the poor warrior.

So? Anets own balance philosophy states that this should very specifically be the professions weakness. Beyond that, I will tell you, welcome to the world of every other profession. Every other profession has to deal with them, with much less opportunity to cleanse them then what warriors have.

Paavotar.3971:

If you take away our gap closeners (which are not teleports) or reduce our immunity to soft CC we become a joke. Theres no way we could ever get close to a necro with all the cripples, chills, fears etc or thieves. Mesmers, even less.

Again i will say, I don’t think the “gap closers” need to be taken away in the least. The ability to use them as general movement and travel abilities or escapes is what needs to be changed. As well I will say again, soft CC should be the joke on you as a warrior.

Paavotar.3971:

I’m not saying there isn’t problem with warriors mobility skills, but don’t at least try to take them away, but try to alter them so that some of them require target (rush for example).

Completely agree with you here.

ellesee.8297:

welp like i said i could use some triple gadget rifle SD build, then stream and highlight me wrecking the uplevels and the baddies that are so prevalent in wvw and hotjoins. but to beat people in solo or team queues at my rank without bombs/grenades or to beat that really good roamer that you find once in a while in wvw, lol not a chance. i’d have to roll a bunker for tpvp and even then engi bunkers are subpar because of their lack of stability. and i’d just outright lose in wvwvw. i wouldn’t trust any gameplay footage unless it’s an entire recording. obviously they just highlight their good plays and leave out the many times they drop.

No bombs/grenades here and looks like no scrub he is fighting.

You have yet to put forward any evidence other then “because I said so”. We offer you video evidence and you scoff at it with lame excuses and straw man theories.

Besides, you go on to say “at my level” as some sideways justification. We are not speaking in strictly sPvP terms. As well, I do not know what level your at, but I am willing to bet I can provide you videos of players who are well above your level using builds successful without bombs/nades.

oZii.2864:

coglin.1867:

Then you agree they need the nerf then. Because no one is asking to remove distance closers as you call them. We are asking they stop allowing them to be exploited as escape tools, which they were intended to be.

Warriors are supposed to be weak to conditions, particularly chill, immobilize, and cripple. with one trait they can ignore them with their gap closers to escape using gap closers as escapes, which by definition is exploitative.

Where has it been stated that it’s suppose to be their weakness?

Right here in the dev posted balance philosophies….

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-December-14-2012/first#post999247

Warrior

We want the Warrior to be capable of good melee damage in a sturdy body. They can still do some decent damage at range, but they aren’t as good at it as the Ranger (with their pet). They have a hard time taking enemy boons down, and instead, have to just go through them with raw force. They may have a hard time with enemy conditions, and may need to ask for ally help in order to keep themselves free of hampering conditions.

runeblade.7514:

Sube Dai.8496:

Warriors are heavy. Heavy should mean slow…

Then that means light means fast.

So a football jock should run slower than a book nerd?

That is a bit irrelevant and illogical since neither of those two are in GW2. If it is all the same to you, we prefer applicable sense and context. Linemen/running back might make sense, but Nerds can be linemen and linemen can be nerds. Analogies are great but blunt prejudgments tend to make poor analogies.

Light, medium, or heavy, makes no difference to me. What really bothers me, is that they have drifted miles away from their posted balancing philosophies that they pushed at as as canon, and I feel that is relevant here.

Detharos.3157:

I personally don’t see any need to remove distance closers

Then you agree they need the nerf then. Because no one is asking to remove distance closers as you call them. We are asking they stop allowing them to be exploited as escape tools, which they were not intended to be.

Warriors are supposed to be weak to conditions, particularly chill, immobilize, and cripple. with one trait they can ignore them with their gap closers to escape using gap closers as escapes, which by definition is exploitative.

Dee Jay.2460:

EFWinters.5421:

Ah, this thread again.

Good players will learn how to play the downed state to their advantage, bad players will cry about it on the forums. Sorry but if you don’t know how to capitalize in any way on your enemy reviving players then you deserve to lose fights.

Ah this response again with no arguments to back it up or examples to make a point.

Just a typical “L2P” response with nothing constructive to add.

Yes there are ways to capitalize on revives but in most cases you’re not in any position to do so. It also doesn’t change the validity of any of the arguments made thus far, especially about the speed of revives in general.

To be fair, how does it add nothing constructive. The only constructive argument for the other side is a blind claim that revives are too fast, with not even one actual number as to how long they should be, or a single fact as to why. The “L2P” argument hold just as much water as the “waaaaah I died to a force 3 times our size and while they were kicking our tails they revived one guy, there for I will demand they change it to suit my personal situation” argument

So it is okay for random poster to just blurt out “revives are to fast” as if their opinion is fact, and every argument used to support it is a complaint about losing to a much larger force. Personally, I havn’t seen the slightest bit of evidence that revives are to fast. Anecdotal complaints are not good supporters for this argument in any way. Personally I think revives for stomped players are too slow. But that is just my opinion.

ATMAvatar.5749:

Requiring a target only addresses cases where a warrior is running away from you. The OP’s scenario was a warrior chasing him down. The problem is that warrior has too many mobility skills with relatively low cool-downs, particularly with a greatsword equipped.

This would make sense if the profession required melee range, but the ability to swap to several different ranged weapons eliminates much of the need for mobility.

I do not see the logic in taking gap closers away, or making them not close gaps.

Swimsasa Stoon.8936:

honestly I think the engineer has the best mobility :p perma swiftness a utility that gives double running speed and he’s got rocketboots. Also, engineer can spec for 1500 range making it possible to hit anybody on any pvp map in an average of 10 seconds.

It really isn’t a fair comparison to compare utility skills to weapon skills in my opinion. As well, you speak as if swiftness is a rarity in WvW. It is quit the opposite.

And what the heck does attack range have to do with an over abundance of movement weapons skills???

ellesee.8297:

of course you can run a build without grenade or bomb kit. but to answer your question no you won’t be viable at all.

This is horrible advice, and very far from the truth. OP, I advise avoiding any engineer advice that has “viable” and “meta” in the same sentence. ellesee, your welcome to you opinion and all, but there are too many thousands of videos of players being successful without bombs or grenades, and I will take thousands of video evidence over any one players opinion any day.

I wouldn’t have a problem with it if they weren’t using skills the devs themselves call gap closers". They simply need to make weapons skills that offer gap closers require a target in range for them to function. Utility skills on the other hand I am okay with because they have the trade off of taking up a utility slot. But a simple weapon should not offer so much more then utilities.

katniss.6735:

It should be 3s base, with 4s with full boon duration gear/spec, and shouldn’t stack.

Immobilize is one of the reasons I don’t play as much anymore. It just caries an 1> vs 1 scenario. As it is now I’ll have to have mist form up, at least 1 dodge available, water attunement up, and lightning flash to get away after. Usually swapping into earth for protection, then air for ride the lightning. It’s so much work because the immob is something like 8s. It’s just dumb right now. Almost every warrior is using immob on cripple.

Top 4 OP things in WvW right now:
1. Immobilize stacking
2. Crit damage
3. Movement imbalances (class vs class based)
4. Conditions spamming (for me, this is mostly confusion that gets old fast)

For #3 I’m okay with thief being the fastest class, but they have about an 80% uptime on a 900 range teleport that goes to way more places than blink and lightning flash do. As for warriors, tune it down. Tune everything in warriors down. You’re basically telling everyone to play warriors with how they perform. I don’t play one because 1, I don’t want to be a part of that cheese, and 2, I just play ele’ anyway.

Why would you say condition spamming, but your okay with AoE direct damage spamming, AoE knock back spamming, AoE and AoE stun spamming? Those do much more damage then condition spamming and make you more vulnerable to further damage.

Mbelch.9028:

You quite literally make me tired. I don’t actually care enough to argue with you over a game in an Internet forum. If you want to argue, do it with yourself.

Yet you keep posting to tel me your not going to post.

Mbelch.9028:

As I said, I knew there would be a consortium of people who love conditions and staunchly defend them. I love when two people with strong views look to simply post more than their opponents so as to overwhelm them.

Opposing views? You made claims that were, false, other provided actual facts. Disproved your claims. You go on posting about how your not going to post and argue, but do so in said post.

Mbelch.9028:

I haven’t made any “claims” to disprove, bud. I don’t get downed in one hit by most things. Like I said, backstabs don’t. Evisetates don’t. Churning earth doesn’t. Killshot doesn’t usually, but if it crits on a full Acended + full stack war potentially can. Meteor shower would from a full glass ele. As would firey rush from any glass class against a wall.

Yes you did. You literally stated conditions can do something direct damage can not, by allowing you to cast skills and leave, cause a player to die 20 s later, when we posted tons of skills that disprove that. Then you went on to claim that your already disproven claim was grounds to nerf and rework conditions. You made other as well.

Mbelch.9028:

I don’t actually have a horrible bias against conditions. You have a love for them though, you two, and man that’s just dandy. People like you who spread disinformation and fight just oh so hard to keep your easy builds overpowered. Well you guys are keeping guild wars from being balanced. Enjoy.

I’m a GW1 player who wishes conditions were more like that game. And to call my views invalid just shows how truly ignorant you are.

Actually we have very literally posted facts. You on the other hand made a false claim, that was easily disprove with a list of direct damage attacks that have long durations, such as ele pets, engineer turrets, meteor shower, and all kinds of mesmer attacks, the list goes on and on. No one is calling your views invalid, we are simply proving your claims as wrong. For example, the statement you make with the title alone was solidly, and logically disproven with facts.

You make a lot of false statements apparently. Such as claiming I love conditions, when actually, I am indifferent about them. Out of the 8 professions I fully leveled in WvW, only my engineer, and ranger use conditions, my warrior, guardian, thief, mesmer, elementalist, and even my necromancer all currently have full direct damage builds that I play. It is not a matter of whether or not I like conditions, It is a matter of knowing how much more versatile and capable my direct damage builds are over the condition build.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

oZii.2864:

Using the same parameters in this test which is be a power build and use one skill walk away and kill someone that stands there with 15.5k hp.

This should be able to be done with:

Meteor shower on a glass ele
Summon fire elemental
Summon hounds of Balthazar
Any power ranger
Any Mesmer
Thieves guild
Ambush trap thief might be able to pull this off.

These would recreate the same scenario in a power build and result in a kill of a 15.5k afk person.

Mesmer and rangers can always do this with the Mesmer killing 2 afk people summon duelist on one zerker on the other I believe leash range is 1500?

EDIT: forgot to add any necromancers minion.

Also forgot Blood is Power with maxed bleed duration and condition damage. That one is possible to hit 18k damage with just the one skill, but it takes 1 minute to happen in full (plus, if not removed from the necro, causes him to take 6k damage)

Leaving rocket turret, thumper turret, and rifle turret as well. All 3 are direct damage and have no limit what so ever as to how far away from them I can go as long as the player that laid them does not leave the map.

hooma.9642:

1. your listed combofinishers dont work on the one executing that combofinisher

Incorrect. Throw wrench or Throw shield are simply 2 examples. Videos, posted, documented and proven well over a year ago. Any projectile skill with returning projectiles will cleanse you. As well, any projectile used from in the field at melee range, as the cleanse is a 180 AoE cleanse, with the range based off of the mob hit.

hooma.9642:

2. so you say berserker stance is such a problem? its 2/15 off the fight duration active. i cant call that active defense. all its does it opens up a tiny time frame to kill the condi user (if he cant defend themself for 8s) without worry about pressure. u know the biggest condi-classes can kite and apply condis 100% of the time at the same time (ranged condi application ftw)?

Please quote the section of my post in which I even resembled “calling Berzerker Stance a problem”………All I did was list it as an active defense against conditions. You may chose to refuse to acknowledge it as an active skill all you wish. You may also wish to believe the world is flat. In either case, blind belief does not make it true. WHen you activate a skill to cause an effect, in this case a full and complete immunity to an entire damage type, it is very literally the definition of an active defensive skill.

As to your comments about kiting, what does whether it is condition damage or direct damage have to do with kiting? I have a great power build with grenades/bomb that does marginally more damage then full dire gear, and may kite you at convenience in very equal measure. It has been videos, posted, and proven, many threads over, that grenades and bombs do more direct damage then they do condition damage. Among the educated community, this fact is common knowledge.

hooma.9642:

3. how i said in my post. dodging bullsrush destroys the whole burst combo. the same goes for a lot of raw dmg bursts but for this example its the easiest to show. on the other hand dodging 1 aa just negates the condiapplication of that aa, but not the condiapplication via trait or sigills or runes. if the attack isnt hitting, the traits ( some have no cooldown) and runes dont go on cooldown. as example you could fight against a necro with dhuumfire and dodge 90% of his attacks. u would still get burned.
4. your list of possible condiremoves are nice but useless. how about u calculate how often u can remove condis and the reapplication? u will see there is a big difference. do the same with raw-burst combo.

Umm, this doesn’t make any sense at all. How does dodging an attack still allow the sigils or trait damage to apply? That is not how it works. A direct attack has to connect (most times with a crit) for any trait or sigil proc to occur.

Mbelch.9028:

If you use many of those things, you’re asking for a death sentence vs power builds. Just saying.

All i read here is you prefer to complain about one thing and demand they nerf it just so you can build to counter another thing entirely. Clearly your acknowledging you knowhow to counter contions, but that you don’t wish to do so. Your entire stance of “nerf it so I can focus on countering something else” is a testament to the fact that conditions are no more threatening then direct damage.

hooma.9642:

zerker build:
counter play against power builds:
- toughness
- protection
- traits with -xxx% dmg
- weakness
- active defense like immunity, dodge and avoiding the burst
- vitality

counter play against condis:
- only cleanses
- vitality
- no active defense, cause u cant avoid the spam.

• active defense like immunity, dodge*

So you claiming dodges magically no longer dodge skills that apply condition? Got a link to this change.

Also These traits say hello
Guardian Absolute Resolution – three conditions from self upon activating Virtue of Resolve
Guardian Inscribed Removal – one condition from self upon activating signets
Guardian Purity – one condition from self every 10 seconds
Warrior Shrug It Off – one condition from allies when you have more than one condition
Warrior Cleansing Ire – one condition for every bar of adrenaline spent
Engineer Cleaning Formula 409 – one condition from allies affected by elixirs
Ranger Evasive Purity – two conditions (blind & poison) from self upon dodge rolling
Thief Shadow’s Embrace – one condition every three seconds from self while in stealth
Elementalist Burning Fire – three conditions when you have three conditions
Elementalist Cleansing Water – one condition from person affected by regeneration
Elementalist Cleansing Wave – one condition from allies upon attuning to water
Elementalist g Evasive Arcana – casts Cleansing Wave at the end of a dodge while attuned to water
Mesmer Cleansing Conflagration – multiple conditions from allies affected by torch skills
Mesmer Cleansing Inscriptions – one condition from self upon activating signets
Mesmer Mender’s Purity – one condition from self upon healing
Mesmer tango Shattered Conditions – one condition from self upon activating shatter skills
Necromancer Shrouded Removal – one condition from self upon entering Death Shroud
Ranger Empathic Bond – three conditions from self to pet every interval
Necromancer Fetid Consumption – all conditions from self to minions
Guardian Pure of Voice – on allies affected by shouts
Warrior Quick Breathing – 1 upon using a warhorn skil
Engineer Transmute – randomly on incoming conditions
Engineer Automated Response (upon health reaching 25%)
Elementalist Diamond Skin (while health is above 90%)

As do these runes, they say hello also

Rune of the Soldier (rank 6); 1 on allies affected by a shout.
Rune of Lyssa (rank 6); all from self on elite skill.

Rune of Hoelbrak (rank 6); -20% condition duration.
Rune of Melandru (rank 2); -10% condition duration.
Rune of Melandru (rank 6); -15% condition duration.
Rune of Resistance (rank 2); -10% condition duration.
Rune of Resistance (rank 4); -10% condition duration.

These consumables wave Hi
Bowl of Poultry Stock: 20% chance to remove a condition upon healing
Bowl of Poultry Noodle Soup: 20% chance to remove a condition upon healing
Bowl of Savory Spinach and Poultry Soup: 30% chance to remove a condition when using heal skill
Bowl of Herbed Poultry Stock: 50% chance to remove a condition when using heal skill
Bowl of Kale and Poultry Soup: 50% chance to remove a condition when using heal skill
Bowl of Hearty Poultry Soup: 60% chance to remove a condition when using heal skill
Bowl of Saffron-scented Poultry Soup: 100% chance to remove a condition when using heal skill

Here are two sigils smiling at you
Sigil of Generosity; One condition transferred to one enemy, chance on critical hit.
Sigil of purity: Chance to remove a condition on critical hit.

*They all passively negate condition damage or add condition damage negating factors to skills you already use. *

For Active forms you have
Any whirls or projectile combo finishers that pass through a light field.

“- no active defense, cause u cant avoid the spam.” You say? None at all? Such as, Dodging? Skills such as Berserker stance don’t? which makes you immune to all condition damage, which subsequently last literally twice as long as Endure Pain, which is its direct damage counter part, on the same cool down duration.

There are more I could list. But since you making inaccurate assumptions and posting them as if they were fact, I figure this is about enough actual fact for now, to debunk what you stated.

@Drarnor Kunoram, Yeah I know some need updating. I just copy/pasted some of the wiki page that these guys pretend doesn’t exist. The funny thing is, I maintain the engineer skills generally on the wiki, and I know for a fact I updated the transmute trait on their on the main page. I guess it didn’t transfer over to the pages it is linked too, although it is supposed to.

EFWinters.5421:

“Cleanse”, lol. Engineers can apply up to 5 condis with a single grenade skill.

Speaking of “lol” only two of the grenades do damage for a total of 3,959 damage. And it takes a minimum of 16s for that damage to fully develop. While a Power based engineer can do that same damage in 1s with a criting bomb Auto attack. Or that much with Big Ol Bomb in P/V/T gear. 2 rifle auto attacks do that much damage in zerker gear.

PM me bud. We can get together with you on your condi/nade enginer, and we can record a battle. I will bring my power engineer. I can tell you now, you will be luckt to hit me with 2/5 grenade tosses, I will bet only 1. But we can record it and post it here to support you perspective if you think it will help.

EFWinters.5421:

Most builds don’t even have instant access to half that many condition clears. Condition application vs condition clearing has been in a kittened spot ever since the introduction of Torment and the balance changes surrounding it.

As well. Professions have access to plenty of cleanse to handle that no problem. Just because “most builds” as you put it, do not have access to “half that” is a problem with your builds. It is completely illogical to play the builds you do with no condition removal, then complain that you cannot cleanse them. FYI, 64% of every skill and trait in the game that removes conditions do 3 or more. Last I checked 3 is most of 5 and 64% is most of the skills.

Redscope.6215:

That’d be great if direct damage countered conditions. It’d be like rock/paper/scissors. Tank counters direct, condi counters tank, direct counters condi.

But it doesn’t work that way.

Conditions can counter every build.

Actually it does work this way, its a fairly well established doctrine in the community. Simply because you refuse to acknowledged it doesn’t make it less true.

We have actually already posted videos of these damage comparisons with necros, engineers, and mesmers on other recent thread. In all cases of those 3 professions, the power builds won out. Fairly easily as well.

Bombsaway.7198:

Condition damage is really not a problem in the game.
It is damage over time and able to be cleaned.
If each condition damage strike were converted to a similar physical damage strike, likely we would be talking about physical damage being too high.

Exactly. I already did the popular condition builds in dire gear compared to the popular builds in soldiers gear in another thread. Quit a few posters changed there tune after that.

As well as Phineas Poe, Guanglai Kangyi, and some others have laid all of the damage out in that form. In the case of the engineer for example, even with +50% condition duration food, the power builds beat out the condition builds by a wide margine. I believe Drarnor Kunoram posted some test videos of the necro over the weekend too.

What is so interesting about it, is that it is a proven fact that these condition builds are generally solidly out damaged by the direct damage counter part, but folks like some of the ones on this thread pretend the information doesn’t exist. It is actually kind of comical. Then again, how long did proof that the world was round exist with folks still blindly believing it is a fact.

As stated before, specific skills are OP, both conditions and direct damage. Impale is one, I personally think it, specifically needs a nerf. But to claim conditions as a whole need a nerf based on impale, just shows some folks still want to argue that the world is flat.

godofcows.2451:

prove him wrong on the stats over and over again, and after that, over and over again. don’t care. behind our heads, something is terribly wrong with conditions and that’s why it’s good because it’s so bad. thus meta.

It has nothing to do with “conditions” , and to suggest so is simply irratiomal. It has to do with a single skill having an overpowered base condition duration. What everyone thinks “behind their heads” as you put it, is how irrationally biased one has to be to claim condition damage is a problem based on one single skill. There are both OP direct damage skills, condition skills, and even auxillary skills. That doesn’t justify claimins they are bad as a whole.

But your stating all condition damage across the board needs a complete overhaul based on one skill. Wouldn’t it make more sense to balance that particular skill instead?

I mean what a a shock right? A warrior skill is over powered, who would have guessed right? So clearly the right thing to do is, as you did, make an unreasonable claim that condition damage needs a rework. If your using anything related to the warrior as the pinnacle of balance, then that is your first mistake. Certainly this particular skill needs to be toned down, but many other condition skills do not.

How do we not know to dodge a attack simply because it is an attack that applies a condition? That is irrational and illogical. What skill was it you refer too? What is its recast? Are you suggesting that the warrior has no comparative direct damage skill? I find that hard to believe.

Did all of the skills in the weapon set do similar damage? Or are you singling out the heavy to irrationally try to suggest one single skill represents condition damage as a whole? Seems more like it is an issue of a single skills balance then anything across the board.

The most irrational point to u made though, is pointing out that it took 20 seconds to kill the target, when direct damage builds have multiple attacks that do 2 k damage and more and do it all instantly instead of taking 20 seconds. It just baffles me that your okay with attacks that do the exact same damage instantly, but when the same damage takes an entire 20 seconds to unfold you think it is unfair. That makes absolutely no sense.

They have exceeded their prophet expectation by a vert large margin every quarter since the games release. So I don’t know why they would want to change the ships course in the least. Much less turn it aroumd.

I agree, I like the torment sigil right now. I like to maximize my AoE with pistol(I use coated bullets a lot) and bomb kit. When your running any condition damage at all, it really helps.

Sizer.5632:

The bigger problem imo isnt how conditions do damage its how they are applied, everything is just way too passive. I always laugh when my engy is fighting someone in spvp and they use a utility to fully cleanse thats on a 40-60s cd and a few seconds later i already have all of those condis back on them again.

And then i respec to a power rifle build or get on a power necro/ele and fight the same person in the next match and its an entirely different world, not trying to argue that power builds are so weak i would automatically lose, but it would take a lot more effort to do the same thing. Condi damage seems balanced enough but it just seems so much more about spam and procs than it is about rotations and managing cooldowns like playing a power build is.

As it has solidly been proven that in almost all cases, that direct damage builds out damage condition builds, your post doesn’t make a lot of practical sense.

This thread reminds me of the old Anet video they made after the game first released and the forums was crammed of threads crying that ascalonian catacombs dungeon was ridiculously difficult (just goes to show you how this forums draws the biggest cry babies and whiners)……At the time engineer was generally considered the weakest profession. They made the video of 5 devs all on engineers clearing the dungeon (I think without a death)……..I know my comment is a bit off topic, but reading this thread just strongly reminded me of that video so I wanted to mention it.

RyuDragnier.9476:

CC doesn’t need a boost, at least not in WvW where you can knockdown/knockback/pull/fear/immobilize/daze spam somebody to death…which is also the main reason why bosses have defiant in PvE.

He was referring to condition crowd control, as he stated that quit specifically, you are referring to almost exclusively stun crowd control with Knock downs, blow outs, knock backs, stuns, dazes, pulls, launches, and petrified, are all completely irrelevant to this conversation because conditions removal has no effect on them, and as the thread title kind of specifies, this is about condition cc and not stun cc.

Zenith.7301:

coglin.1867:

Zenith.7301:

1) Condi damage is ranged and goes through protection’s damage reduction.

This is a condition thread, not a necro thread. Your ridiculous claim that condition damage is all ranged is just ludicrous. Pleas at least try to offer at least some level of logic if you wish to make a counter argument. Post like this are the original problem in the first place. Though it is true that all conditions that due damage ignore protection. It is also true that conditions can be negated entirely by cleanses.

Necro condi damage is all ranged. Learn to be aware of context. I quoted a guy talking about condi vs. power necro.

Actually wells are condition damage skills and only ranged if trait ed, thus they are not defaultly ranged. As well, I was clear that the context of this thread is “conditions” not “necros”, and examples were given of engineers and other condition builds. What does any of what your saying have to do with the stance you are taking of nerfing conditions, when it has been proven and established over dozens of threads for dozens of weeks that condition damage is underpowered across the board compared to direct damage?

For example, lets take this line of illogical mess here

3) The power necro goes down faster than a prom dress given he’s made of toilet paper levels of toughness.

How does this make any sense when the vids posted have gear with the same level of health and toughness?

As well as the videos and damage comparisons of soldiers gear to dire gear, both of equal levels of health and toughness, and the direct damage was congruent to the condition damage with +50% condition duration. Talk about needing to learn some context, sheesh……..

Zenith.7301:

1) Condi damage is ranged and goes through protection’s damage reduction.

This is a condition thread, not a necro thread. Your ridiculous claim that condition damage is all ranged is just ludicrous. Pleas at least try to offer at least some level of logic if you wish to make a counter argument. Post like this are the original problem in the first place. Though it is true that all conditions that due damage ignore protection. It is also true that conditions can be negated entirely by cleanses.

I do not understand, just how fast are folks reviving players? I mean, I am reading all of this, “it’s to fast” claims, but no one is posting any facts about the matter. Do you know how long it takes one player to revive a downed? Do you know how much the speed increases per player aiding in the revive? Do you know how much faster a player at 1700 healing power can revive then a player with 0 healing power?

How fast is to fast? I have yet to see a single bit of information in real time posted. How many seconds is this taking? What makes this amount of time too fast? If I were a dev I would ignore each and every one of you with extreme prejudice. Posting complaint after complaint of “its to fast” then “no its not”……all without posting a single fact of any kinds. Precisely how many seconds should it take? How many seconds is taking now? Why are you so against reviving for the enemy, when you are perfectly happy to be revived yourself?

Why should downed and spiked equal a must way point situation in WvW? I play a majority of my time in WvW and I disagree. A smart player uses this to their advantage. Either continue to let them revive and farm them for bags, or concentrate AoEs on the ones trying to revive for easier slaughter of their forces.

If they are far enough away from their spawn points that it is better to revived spikes players, then odd are, you are nearer your spawn point. In which case you have the advantage.

There are only two reasons that people would have a problem with the option to revive. One is if their force is filled with more skilled players then yours, thus they are slaughtering you in greater number then you are of them. The other is if they are fighting more intelligently then you, again slaughtering more of you, then you are of them. In either case you are going to lose the battle either way.

Isslair.4908:

Oth condition specs require a lot less successful hits. And once you land your conditions, they will deal the damage even if target dodges, runs away, goes to stealth. And since good condition builds are cappable of spamming tons of different conditions all the time, cleansing is not really that effective.

The difference in effort needed to pressure someone between condi and power build is quite big. And something definitely needs to be done about it.

This doesn’t make any sense what so ever. How do you think those conditions get applied? I will let you in on a little secret. I probably should PM this to you, because I wouldn’t want this to get out to the whole world. So don’t tell anyone, but you actually have to actually land all of your damage to land all of your conditions.

As well the difference in effort is quit the opposite of what your stating. You need more time as it takes conditions longer to do the damage. Then again, you didn’t even know that damage has to land to apply conditions. That does make me curious as to one thing though. How in the heck did youthink we did condition damage without landing our skills?

Isslair.4908:

As a condi build you don’t really have such a problem. After you landed your conditions you can focus on just surviving for some time, while you still apply pressure to the enemy. It really promotes bad gameplay style of bunkering up and outlasting opponent.

What are you basing this on? We have already established that if the condition user and the direct damage user land their damage, the direct damage user would have cost the opponent alot more health. How does doing less damage to you opponent then they do to you, apply more pressure? What your stating here makes absolutely no sense.

I like celestial for the metallic colors.

midnight yew for the trim pieces and lights. (I just like greens)

midnight ice for the black.