Guild Wars 2

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

So you weigh in the effectiveness of a condi-rabid but don’t realize the effective defense it brings?

Effectively, that is why glass cannons are considered glass since you know they lack vitality or toughness.

I already posted results with knights gear vs rabid previously. Equal toughness and HP, yet still the same 10s for condition kill but 8s for Knight. This is just for necromancer. The difference sloped in favor of power builds even more with the engineer. The top two condition professions both do more damage with power builds. Yet you argue that conditions need a nerf eh? How did you come to this conclusion? Do you have a fact, or even a reasonable example to support your suggestion that conditions are over powered my friend?

insanemaniac.2456:

the condi equivalent of zerk would be condi dmg / prec / condi duration… why do you think rabid vs zerk is a valid comparison? i think valk would be more applicable. or maybe spvp knights.

I agree, zerker to rabid isn’t congruent. See the above knights gear explanation. FYI, we do not have weapons, armor or trinkets that have condition duration on them, nor does PvP have a condition duration amulet.

I have also posted vids and damage comparisons in previous threads of soldiers compared to dire with all 8 profession. As well as the percentage of damage direct damage builds out damaged condition builds. In the case of the engineer for example (a notorious condition user)…In breaking down the skills damage and showing how +100 power food with engineer rifle (thier only power based weapon) did compared to adding 50% condition duration to pistol/pistol (the professions only full condi weapon set) and rifle still out damaged P/P by 3.7%……the damage was double that percentage in favor of power for grenades, and 21% in favor of power for bombs. Again, dire compared to soldier in that particular instance. In all 4 weapon comparisons, direct damage was clearly in favor after 50% condition duration was applied. All of the damage was assessed with out conditions being cleansed.

Terravos.4059:

Condition Damage isn’t overpowered..

I’ve explained this in countless threads.

If I was to fight someone that could apply 10 Stacks of Bleed on me and nothing else

I would choose to fight that person every single time over a person who could apply 5 Stacks of Bleed, Cripple, Chill, Vulnerability…Even though the 5 STacks of Bleed is way less damage then 10 stacks….

Because Condition Damage isn’t what is powerful..

Condition Coverage is what makes Conditions powerful…..You could apply bleeds on me all day long, but if you don’t have anything to cover that bleed…I’ll shrug it off.

At first glance, what you state here seems reasonably practical. Until you notice that if you never once cleanse a condition, that power builds still have a higher damage capabilities condition builds on the whole, compared to condition builds when the conditions applied, never get cleansed. All this is coming from the guy who has leveled all 8 professions to 80 in WvW, yet I still main the profession that arguably has the least available condition removal of them all, and I see no issue with conditions damage, duration, or the amount available.

Brando.1374:

spvp dps test for Necromancer
Condi http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3844048 Total of 7 skills used
Power http://www.twitch.tv/xxkakarot/c/3844034 Total of 4 skills used

that 11111 spam in the power build needs to be nerfed.

Not to mention that the condition damage took 10s to kill, while the power build took only 6s to do it.

Yet you have failed to suggest you debate from a strictly s PvP stand point. As well, it would help if you offered facts to support a claim that conditions are OP relative to direct damage. For example the damage of a hammer warrior auto attack does 23% more damage then any of a bunker engineers auto attacks, with 32% more health per second regeneration, more hp, more toughness, yet everyone cries bunker engineers are OP. So yeah, I have trouble taking your "context argument serioisly. Particularly when you avoid offering actual facts.

It gets real old hat when folks such as yourself claim something needs a nerf, while making any effect to avoid offering facts, but do as you are and base it on how it feels to you in game, offering such unspecific scenarios and unspecific situations as argumentative justification.

As of now, literally no one in the “nerf conditions” category is doing anything other then demanding a nerf. No one, and I mean no one is doing a damage comparison or offer specific numbers or situations to support the argument. All everyone is doing is complaining that they dislike a condition meta exactly like the did about the direct damage meta before the condition meta. The only difference is that they changed the direct damage based on hundreds of videos displaying damage, posters showing the math, and comparisons. Now that damage has equalized, folks demand a condition nerf just because conditions annoy them.

Until you actually offer video comparison evidence, damage comparisons, or even any actually fact, all you are doing is belly aching. Just like you make “exaggerated claim that was meant to imply” s you put it, then berate me when I speak out against the specific exaggerated claims. So you feel it is okay for you to exaggerate claims all you like, admit to it, then lecture me when I cannot take you seriously after I have posted damage value comparisons and situation videos in many threads over recent months to support my argument.

Daishi.6027:

At the end of the day I’m actually fine how conditions work

Then why do you keep demanding they are OP and repeated posting on a thread titled “nerf condition damage” ?

Daishi.6027:

I just think the amulets need less beefy stats, or the builds need less innate survivability… Annnd/or perhaps a slight reduction or change to base durations.

And why do you think this? This is where the entire issues lays. You suggest a change is needed but not offering an actual reason for it. No one can even have a conversation about this with you, all we can do is debate it against your stance, because the numbers and situation facts show that conditions already do less damage then direct damage builds do.

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

TooBz.3065:

And this is why WvW, PvE, and PvP will never be properly balanced.

Exactly.

Perfect. Because it has been clearly stayed that Wvw is not intended to be balanced. I findit funny that players such as this are perfectly fine that they can Are spam 27 hammer CC in a row on me for 25 s of knocked down time, but the second more then one player hits them with a condition, they run to the forums to cry fowl.

Kukchi.6173:

unleashed.8679:

Condition damage is fine in general, the only things that have to be changed is:

• the condition cap. It has to be removed
• the massive condition cleans capabilities in WvW Zerks have to be reduced.

It is not fine, its broken and needs to be reworked.

Based on what? got a fact, comparison, or even a reason, to back up your claim? Based on the actual fact that direct damage builds clearly out damage condition builds, blind and unsupported one liners like this do not make a lot of sense, nor does it add value to the conversation. If we want mindless one liners, we will watch old Rodney Dangerfield stand up videos. Here we prefer a little information, explanation, or facts to put meaning to a claim.

Maybe you need to re-read his post yourself.

You do? You apply that with every single swing of your auto attack, which is what you are clearly attempting to imply. That is impressive. What build is it that accomplishes this. What is your total damage in 10 hits with this mystical and magical auto attack? Perhaps you could actually try offering some facts and information rather then I made a such and such profession and proced a few of my traits and my sigil on one crit once. I killed a gopher with a stick once. Does that mean every time a swing a stick that gophers dies?

Every post that tries to use a specific skill makes a reference to necromancers. If you want to talk about condition do so, but use more then one specific skill on one specific profession.. If you have an issue with necros, make a cry about necro thread and stop trying to derail this into a necro is OP thread please.

I am trying to understand how a single profession has a single weapon, that you feel you can use to represent all conditions, and use a specific weapons auto attack on a specific profession to claim that conditions across the board, on all professions need a nerf.

Daishi.6027:

Most major burst or spike damage sources are easy to avoid and obvious and need to be out played. Condition damage is “I have 10+ skills plus a string of condition applies on my auto attack, lets see how many doges you have.” true their are more major condition applying skills that do a significant amount, along the lines of signet of spite and pin down for example. (both come out really fast btw unlike most burst combos) But the level of power with the added sustain is usually enough to carry the builds even without the larger “burst condi” skills.

First thing I see, is you are suggesting direct damage can be dodged while magically condition damage attacks cannot. So what are these magic builds that have 10 skills that apply damage conditions? Then you go on to list 2 of the longer recast heavy hitters for their respective professions. Both of which have similarly clear tells. Seems like your being unreasonably hypocritical here. Your claims that they come out really fast is just that, a claim, and a very inaccurate one. As well, the term “burst conditions” is an oxymoron.

Daishi.6027:

The validation that “Power is stronger hit for hit” is only carried by the assumption something is going to be standing still. So if we’re talking PvE you sir are right, if we go PvP or WvW no it’s not evenly matched.

Ahh I see. So your suggesting that again, magically direct damage attacks cannot hit a moving target. Yet your suggesting it is easier to hit a mobile target with. oh, say, engineer grenades thrown from a distance, or engineers bombs with a 2s delay, Now your just not making sense, or you have no experience with other professions and simply do not know how they work.

Daishi.6027:

In b4 “but conditions can be cleared” – Unlike stun breakers there are very few activated skills that are useful on their own merits beyond being a clense that clean more than 2-3 conditions.

So your suggesting cleansing does not negate a great deal of damage? The thing is, there are waaaaay to many direct damage builds that have a 3+ condition removal skill, as well as other forms of condition removal in traits, sigils, runes, and the negating food.

Daishi.6027:

Problem with condition is the amount of innate survivability and sustain.

Odd way to start your point, when it has already been solidly established that in almost all instanced, soldiers gear power builds out damage dire condition builds by a clear margin. Thus, the fact that power builds, have the same innate survivability, with more sustained.

I am guessing the OP doesn’t have a problem with being revived himself though. The problem is clearly that a situation occurred that caused the OP to lose when he felt he should have one, then cries OP on the forums immediately after. He as much stated so with his “story” in the first post. That is a huge problems on the forums. Players get selfish and demand changes based on a specific situation and skew the bigger picture. This is displayed in some of the clearly poorly thought out “such and such profession is op” threads.

If you cannot win a fight within the rules of the game, why pick your fights more intelligently, play better, or adjust your tacticts, when you can simply go on the forums and demand they change the entire game to suit your personal need. Talk about selfish.

sinject.4607:

the most broken condition at the moment is burning by the way.

it lasts too long, and/or does far too much damage per tick with the amount of effort required to use it. it’s totally broken.

Based on what? What fact do you use to support that it is broken? Another prime example of posters making blind claims that work against logic and reason. A tick of burning can only go so high, as it can only stack in duration. Seems a bit comical that folks will make accusations and claims that a 800ish burn is broken, when you can have 25 stacks of bleeds on you for a 3,250 tick.

Distaste.4801:

Once you start going down the condition rabbit hole you’ll quickly find that it is extremely deep. It will take a long time to fix and given that ArenaNet is an incredibly slow developer it might never get done right. I suspect all we will see is bandaid fixes that either make conditions OP or useless because it never addresses the real issues.

It is actually not deep at all. This is what we call, “trying to out think common sense.” Condition damage skills do less then thier direct damage counter parts, by a fair portion. This is why so many use 40% duration food and at list 10 points into a cond. duration line just to keep up. The problem is most players are not intelligent enough to be aware of this fact. Most players read one thread of blind complaints on the matter after getting killed a few times in WvW and regurgitate what they read, all the while, being completely ignorant of the facts.

There is absolutely no OP conditions, There are only OP builds, in which a specific combination of traits, combined with the right runes, and sigils, cause a possibility of an OP build.

I find it a bit interesting that you suggest they need to fix conditions when it seems you are not even aware of what the actual problem is. I mean, you appear not even to have knowledge of how every profession is limited to what conditions they have access too.

The first problem is that there is no real condition problem, the second problem is that those claiming there is a condition problem repeatedly display that they do not even have the foggiest idea of the mechanics, available, or function of conditions.

Master of Timespace.2548:

You don’t understand: a condition spec also gains resistance against burst builds. They melt power bunkers and outlast power dps builds. Roll a conventional dps build like shatter mesmer and then fight against a proper condition gimmick such as perplexity engi or pu mesmer. Only then you will understand how broken the game is.

I would love to have you actually post a fact behind your claim that condition builds are resistant to burst builds. As well I would love to hear how condition builds melt power based bunkers. This is the type of comments that support my positions that conditions are weaker builds then power. Not only do you make a statement that is the opposite of the truth and how this things work in actuallity, you offer not a single argument, point of logic, or even the slightest thought, as to how you came to such a conclusion.

Perplexity engineer is extremely unimpressive. As are PU mesmerism. I duel both often A little CC and semi intelligent game play, or what we simple folk refer to as dodging, blocking. and cleansing, and either one is dead.

If you feel those two builds are so strong, feel free to PM me, and I will met you for some 1v1 duels. We can record them and post the videos here. I am certain you would love to do so, because if those two builds are even half as strong as your “claiming” they are, you will obviously destroy me repeatedly, and have it posted here to prove your point. Right?

I have a full set of ascended weapons, trinkets, and armor that are all celestial gear, and I love it. Sure it may change, but it won’t be much. I use a full set of Traveler’s Runes, and I find this set of gear lets me be very flexible. I spend a good deal of time in WvW and I can change my build from one end to the other on the fly.

hellsmachine.4085:

I understand the rules just fine, that’s why I’m complaining about it, because it’s unbalanced. It can still be an effective counter just needs a major nerf.

It will definitely get nerfed, just have to wait maybe 6 months, after everyone in WvW has switched to condi after the crit nerf. Rapid cycle of nerf/re-gear/rinse/repeat to maximise sales of transmutation crystals.

Clearly you do not. You make inaccurate and uneducated prediction, and you claim something is OP when it is not, while you avoid supplying in proof, reasons at all, or number. Mostly because you either are aware that the numbers suggest the opposite of what your claiming, or you do not even know the numbers and are making claims because you die to conditions because you do not counter them. Thus your lack of success is your own fault. If you would learn to counter it to even a small extent, it would not even be an issue for you.

I use this when I pin up.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vcAQJAqelUUpdr9ZxvLseNSE6h9LsaF9Q/V2yfKIXA-z0BBYjChUgAEBJMRtIaslhFRjVVjIqWlELAACwMLzgMnZG6QH6QH6QbmHdmHdmHtQALWDA-w

WHen clashing against other forces, I will utilize the bomb kit. That keeps a 425+ heal tic on me as well as 265+ AoE stacking heal. Solid and constant AoE damage. The obvious AoE benefit of healing turret. Rocket boots to launch into trouble or in other cases out of trouble. With stabilizing armor combined with protection injection, I have a 53% damage reduction if I run out of stability and my stun breaker is on cool down. Self regulating defense is a free “get out of jail free card” every 90s. I feel the AoE heal tic of super elixir, elixir infused bombs, healing mist, regenerating mist, cleansing burst, and the heal turret itself combine with self regulating defense, the ability to negate over 1/2 the damage while under control effects, all to work together to allow me spectacular survivability while doing solid damage as well as assisting in keeping my team mates alive and cleansed.

Why? If you are working to keep professions on congruent footing, what difference does it make if you nerf the OP stuff or buff the UP stuff ? The answer is, buffing adds a power creep, in which they have been very clear to state as something they completely want to avoid. In that respect, nerfs are not necessarily a bad thing at all. It is simply perceived as bad, when it is a players main profession they play.

That is my point as well Drarnor Kunoram, and I completely agree with you. What I was disagreeing with was his act of accusations and negative comments towards the devs for it. They did post and specifically state that they were working on it and having difficulty sorting out the issue a few times. Which is also why it is discouraging to see him imply they were ignoring it.

I totally agree it was a long time till it was fixed. I didn’t like it either, but to claim the devs “neglected to even look into it” as he stated specifically, is simply unfounded accusation. Anyone making claims to know what they devs are doing or why they are doing it, is working completely against the benefit of the community and more specifically the thread. If you like, I can quote you multiple dev post in which they specifically state that they intentionally, completely ignore post and threads in which they accuse or insult the devs.

You are quick to exclaim I am “attacking” the OP, yet your okay with him making blind accusations and attacking the devs and their actions with no facts to support his angle of attack, when in fact the facts support the opposite.

Yes of coarse I desire for game improvements, what I do not desire, is for solid improvements to be discussed, simply to have the devs ignore the discussion because it is riddled with uninformed attacks towards them, and baseless accusations.

Seems a bit hypocritical for you to feel what was said in accusation and assumption toward the dev team, which would cause them to ignore this threads feed back, as defend-able, yet feel you should attack the one pointing out how it harms the goal.

MonMalthias.4763:

The lesson here is that despite longstanding community feedback, the bug-fixing team neglected to look at the deeper implications of control-effect increasing Sigils and Runes and, due to the decision to effectively freeze the meta after the PAX Tournament was announced, the problem persisted for months.

Now this is where I have to take issue with your comments. By your comments it is extremely clear you do not have the slightest understanding of coding or programming, yet you feel you can sit here and ridicule and lecture others on it. You are making blind and uninformed accusations and assumption about the state of mind and the intentions of the devs. You link many post of complaints and discussions on the issue, but it appears you go out of your way to avoid the threads with repeated dev post and communication.

Do you actually have any proof that bug fixing team intentionally neglected to fix this as you claim? I find that hard to believe with the dev post in which they explained the difficulty of finding the cause of the problem They are multiple post from the devs explaining this, yet you sit here and blatantly call them liars and claim this was intentional.

You are precisely the reason the devs might think to ignore poster on the forums, when you make uninformed and unfounded insults and accusation of this nature toward the devs.

Mnemesis.8257:

To be completely honest though, killing someone through the use of turrets (notice the plural here) is usually attributed to their own lack of judgement and/or skill.

I disagree. Almost no players in WvW have any experience against turrets at all. Most players do not lack any skill against turrets, they completely lack knowledge about turrets. It is not a lack of judgement, but a lack of experience. This general lack of knowledg may disappear one day, but for now, the lack of mobility limits turret use in WvW to almost nil, that no one has any open field battle experience with them.

kusanagi.3150:

Conditions just ignore one of the two mains stats of defense we have. Sounds legit, yeah.

Since condition builds are solidly out damaged by direct damage builds, I agree with you, sounds very legit.

You could say that. Similarly one could point out that entire huge chunks of damage of condition builds are negated with cleanses. This while power damage is only great then condition damage “on paper only” argument is hilarious. It has been known since day oneof this game that vitality absorbs condition damage with cleanses to fully negate it, and toughness to negate direct damage. While dodges and blocks negate both equally

If your going to suggest one is OP over the other please use actual facts to support that. This whole “conditions are OP because I say so” argument does’ t fly…….

MIrra.3604:

Let me help Ozii out.

“You cannot mention one manner in which direct damage is “fully” negated that doesn’t “fully” negate condition damage."

Hello…endure pain.

Ah and berzerker stance that completely negates conditions and last twice as long should doubly help my point based on your logic, thank you.

MIrra.3604:

Also, direct damage is mitigated by a lot of things and one of which has a 100% up time, armor.

Feel free to read my post, I am fairly certain I put “fully” in bold. Secondly, does armor negate 40% of direct damage as bowl of lemongrass poultry soup. As well, cleanses can negate all of a round of condition damage. It is simply a fact.

So you state “direct damage is mitigated by a lot of things”, please feel free to list them. As of now your making the argument of many here, by making blind and uninformed statements yet not offering any facts, please, by all means, list them.

oZii.2864:

A large part of your damage is from auto attacks in a condition build and usually ranged.

Yes, because the engineers 2s bleed on thier auto attack is obviously breaking the game. I mean I can appreciate your opinion, but for the love of Pete, keep it reasonable.

Applying your damage is easier with a condition build then a direct damage build since there is only one way to stop the damage once it’s applied and that’s through cleansing.

You guys have to get over this irrational thought process like this. Care to offer a reasonable argument to support this? Perhaps compare a popular direct damage build to a popular condition build, and offer a reasonable break down of how conditions magically are easier to damage with then power builds. A dodged, blocked, or cleansed condition does literally 0 damage, just as a dodged or blocked direct damage attack.

And this *
“there is only one way to stop the damage once it’s applied and that’s through cleansing”*
How do you negate direct damage once it is applied? You cannot mention one manner in which direct damage is fully negated that doesn’t fully negate condition damage.

What is so theoretical? A dodge causes the direct damage to fail to do damage. A dodge fails to apply the condition. Blocks, fail to apply conditions, just as they do with a direct damage attack. You mention “endure pain" as if it is relevant, have you ever heard of “Berserker Stance”, it has an 8s duration, while “endure pain” has a 4 s duration. That is double the duration of the skill that prevents conditions compared to the skill that prevents direct damage, with the same cool down.

You are implying that direct damage skills are for some reason more difficult to make contact with then condition applying skills. That is simply not true. It seems to be a common argument though. I have yet to have anyone prove to me that it is, in any way, easier to land the skills that apply conditions then it is the ones that apply direct damage.

When you focus on the idea that CC conditions are effected by stats that condition builds use, it appears you also seem to forget all of the knock downs, knock backs, and blow out effects that direct damage skills apply, or other CC such as guardians ring of warding.

insanemaniac.2456:

no. not worth my time.

suffice to say, you arent looking at what people actually use. an across the board comparison is not applicable. as an example, saying 100 power = 11.7% rifle dps increase is pure ********

Interesting. It is not worth your time to offer a fact….that suggest you are aware that your speaking out of perception and not reality. As far as your accusation about whether or not I am looking at what people are saying, why would I listen to what they are saying when most of them are doing as you do, and basing statements on assumption and not actual facts. And if my numbers are wrong about rifle, I challenge you to post your damage numbers of the 4 rifle skills that do damage, before and after the +100 power food. If you like, I will assist you in the math to turn your findings to a percentage. Your logic process is interesting though. I offer you a fact, you retort with a profanity. That doesn’t aid your argument much.

Lucentfir on the other hand offers some reason to a perspective. The flip side to what your saying Lucentfir, is when a power builds uses the odd condition they have on weapons here and there, or other applications with with sigils or runes to bury cripples, chills, immobilizes, and vulnerability to to make you unable to escape some of their ridiculously hard hitting direct damage attacks. Just pointing out that to a certain extent, that it works both ways.

To be honest though, as I see it, the “covering conditions” argument doesn’t mean much, because with +50% duration, the conditions have to stay on the entire time to even come close to the damage of direct damage builds.

insanemaniac.2456:

oh. wow. no wonder you constantly defend soldier gear as being more dps than dire. you cherry pick numbers.

I cherry pick? I compared the entire available weapon set on an entire profession. An across the board comparison of near every skill in the game has been posted on multiple threads. Look it up. The more interesting thing, is that you offer no counter argument or opposing facts. You simply post a back handed comment in a one liner. If you refute my perspective, I challenge you to offer a fact of any kind of your own experienced experiment, or some applicable and comparable test result of your own. your counter productive one liners that offer nothing to the conversation, certainly do not aid in your argument my friend.

Feel free to offer similar numbers using bombs, grenades, or the tool kit, or all three, if you like. Or you are welcome to copy/paste the already posted damage comparison numbers on those main damage kits from previous threads. As Soldiers beats Dire in all of those cases, It negates your “cherry picking” argument a bit.

Cygnus.6903:

Also, I am very curious about those numbers. Is that simply auto-attacking?

killahmayne.9518:

I would also be curious to see the math on that as well and how that was tested.

These two post make the point in themselves. You both do not have the slightest idea what condition builds do compared to power builds. You both are suggesting condition damage builds are OP or more powerful damage wise, then go on to point out that you would like to see the damage comparison numbers. Clearly displaying that your making accusations without having the slightest idea what the facts actually are.

Why are you here complaining about conditions, and arguing against them, when you don’t even have a clue that they are out damaged by direct damage builds?

Take engineers for example, they have 3 weapons combo choices, Pistol/Pistol, Pistol/Shield, and Rifle. The rifle is basically all power oriented while pistols are condition damage. Rare veggie pizza adds 0 damage to 3 of the 4 damage skills, while for example the +100 power food adds a total of 11.5% damage to the rifle skills total. When total damage of the pistols with rare veggie pizza are combined it is a 7.7% damage increase. Giving the power weapon with power food a 3.5% damage increase over the condition focused weapons with rare veggie pizza.

Pizza is perfectly okay. The fact is, that condition builds have to have a minimum of +50% condition duration just to keep up with the direct damage builds. Compare Dire to Soldiers for example. Most builds, of most professions continue to be out damaged by the soldiers builds then the dire builds with the +50% condition duration. If anyone is suggesting other wise, they have not done reasonable damagecomparisons after field testing them. There have been many many threads displaying the damage numbers comparisons that show this to be the facts of the matter.

The problem is that a few people get there tail kicked, see that it was by condition damage, then come to the forums and cry OP with out actually knowing a single fact of the matter. This causes other to read it and jump on the band wagon. Reading thread after thread on this, it is clear they are making pure assumption and basing everything on here say or conjecture. When challenged to prove the damage comparisons, they disappear or ignore the challenge, going on without actually knowing what is or is not true to action.

here is a prime example of speaking out of a pure lack of knowledge:

omg
no
nerfing is a good paradigm
for example, pizza. no other food gives a 25-40% damage boost. its clearly out of line. buffing other foods to give 25-40% damage boosts is irrational, other builds do enough damage as is. SO kittenING NERF PIZZA. and then the game is better. kthxbai

When in reality 40% boost does literally no damage boost to most skills in the game. This poster appears to know so little about condition damage, that he is not even aware of that. Take engineers for example, they have 3 weapons combo choices, Pistol/Pistol, Pistol/Shield, and Rifle. The rifle is basically all power oriented while pistols are condition damage. Rare veggie pizza adds 0 damage to 3 of the 4 damage skills, while for example the +100 power food adds a total of 11.5% damage to the rifle skills total. When total damage of the pistols with rare veggie pizza are combined it is a 7.7% damage increase. Giving the power weapon with power food a 3.5% damage increase over the condition focused weapons with rare veggie pizza.

Heimdallr.7021:

The OP didn’t prove anything.
I agree though that the warrior need to be toned downin some way, however it is not OP as many people claim it to be.

Actually it is. I am going to guess you have not leveled all professions to 80 so you do not even have a clue how OP it is or isn’t, yet you will make such statements.

And yes, he did prove something. Unlike people who make blind claims based on what they read here or what someone afflicts against them in game, he at least picked it up and tried it for himself. You on the other hand are claiming “it is not OP” and offering absolutely no evidence, facts, or any argument what so ever to support your perspective.

The OP on the other hand never made any claims in the original post, he simply listed how easy or difficult he found certain aspects of his experiences.

MonMalthias.4763:

• AI should be fixed such that Turrets target what the Engineer targets, without exception. Even if the turrets are out of range. Range control is Engineer’s specialty, and introducing the possibility of playing Turrets badly increases the skill floor. More on that on a later point.

I agree with you fully here, and this is what they have started heading towards. But yeah, your right

MonMalthias.4763:

• I do think that Turrets should remain almost as fragile as they are at present. (Hitboxes notwithstanding) With low cooldowns and low durability and (hopefully) a high rate of fire to match, Turrets would become highly disposable area control tools that present a clear and present enough threat to draw focus fire for the precious few seconds.

I completely disagree here. Currently they are as fragile as necro pets for instance, but do no more damage or CC, and lack the mobility. I feel that durability is a good exchange for the lack of mobility.

MonMalthias.4763:

• Toolbelts should then be rebalanced to offer higher utility than pure damage – to reflect the lower turret uptime. Traits tying into Toolbelt use would then have greater synergy than is currently possible. Engineers still lack Condition cleanse on Toolbelt use outside of Elixirs, and lack mobility tools and weapon swap mechanics when running triple Turrets. Traits and possibly new skills should fill these gaps.

Makes sense, but I have to say, I would be strongly against any concept limiting turret up time.

MonMalthias.4763:

• For Engineers wishing to preserve their turrets, a Turret Recall chain skill coming after the Overcharge skill that transports Turrets to the Engineer’s current location will allow the Engineer to save them from incoming AOE for precious seconds more. In addition, Recall would also be useful with controlling range, allowing Turrets left behind to catch up when Recalled in the context of mobile combat, without introducing free Turret movement. Traits tying into Healing Turrets with Recall or extending Overcharge should replace Autotool Installation or Metal Plating or other useless traits at present.

Interesting idea. I might have to give this one some thought before I I would have an opinion one way or the other.

MonMalthias.4763:

• The primary concern with Turrets is to make them fun to play with, fun to play against. Managing Turrets should require the same skill floor as Kits. Right now AI dominated specs are extremely passive and playing against them is a highly binary experience: Either your build has enough ranged AOE to kill it, or it doesn’t. AI specs are extremely dangerous to Melee specs with many procs and triggers like Death Nova becoming suicidal to face with melee attacks. Turrets should be strong to the point that counterplaying them does not result in the same binary experience. Forcing Recalls or Detonations or Overcharges should be as much a part of fighting against Turret specs as Turret specs should exploit these mechanics to succeed.

I disagree with your “fun to play against” portion of the comment. In no way should “fun to play against” be part of the balance thought process in my opinion.

Maskaganda.2043:

the wording on the trait description is wrong. what it actually does is:

bellow 25% hp no new conditions can be applied to you. conditions that were ticking at 26% hp will still run their timers fully, unless cleansed.

This is incorrect. When below 25%, all conditions applied have there duration reduced by100% of the base condition. For example, if i have +50% condition duration, and my skill applies 4s as a base, wirh my 150% condition durarion combined with the -100% durarion of the trait, you would still get 2s of the condition applied to you.

Ryld.1340:

Suggestion: Make it affect Normal Hits and Conditions. Remove the Crit part.

That is a fair bit unreasonable. Your suggesting rewarding players who invest it one stat, while punishing players who invest in another.

I use both in 90% of my builds. Rocket boots is great to make gaps or close them. As well it is useful as mentioned, for blast finishers and a source of burning. I don’t understand the need to compare them. Why make it an either/or conversation when you can use both? Not to mention rocket boots clears immobilize, chill, and cripple.

killahmayne.9518:

It also isn’t just about damage dealing conditions. When people talk about a condition meta, people are also talking about non damage dealing conditions. Chill is very deadly, weakness reduces dodging AND direct damage, poison has the effect of dealing damage and reducing healing. Even cripples suck to have on you, immobilize even more so, etc. They also help in covering damage dealing conditions. This is made a lot worse when you have 50% condition duration.

Based on the fact that power builds have just as much access to control conditions, I have difficulty seeing how you expect this to aid your point in any way what so ever. It is a very thin line of reasoning to suggest that DoT damage users are more powerful then direct damage users based on crowd control they have equal access too.

Kiriakulos.1690:

Nobody wants the balance changes introduced in recent patches and when the forums are full of people dissuading ANet of making them and they still go through with it, well that shows how little they listen to us.

And comments such as this make my point precisely. Your making a claim based on your skewed, personal opinion, yet claiming it as if it is a fact.Yet a large portion of the changed were screamed and pleaded for on the individual professions sub forums, while you inaccurately claim no one wanted any of them. The fact that you even begin to believe you speak for the community is comical in itself.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Finally, when regarding how ANet’s inner workings are, he had put up employee reviews of the company before, but has since taken them down as some people were using them to drag the thread off topic.

Actually he put up anonymously posted reviews by a site that is in a federal lawsuit after evidence that this site was posting such reviews by individuals that never actually had any association or affiliation with the companies, upon receiving compensation from the competitors of the businesses in which such reviews as the ones he linked were received. In other words, the site he linked to is in the hot seat for literally making up such reviews for money, and you are using this as the bases to your argument to support the OP claiming to know how Anet works? Your kidding right?

Dragonic Elemental.2674:

Arenanet should not be adding new content or changing things nobody wants,

And how are you determining no one wants this? Literally hundreds of thousands of players are logging in to do living story, and there are hundreds upon hundreds of threads praising it. Just because you “feel” it isn’t popular, doesn’t make it so. They have tons of reasonable evidence to presume otherwise.

The problem as I see it is the misconception is so many players minds. On the whole, direct damage builds out damage condition damage. We have had discussion in the past in which we have threads displaying all of the math proving this. Soldiers gear for example, out damages Dire gear by a fair bit. Dire gear has to have 50% condition duration to even compare, mathematically speaking. The problem is, that so many posters simply regurgitate other post or threads here, without actually having tested anything or developed any facts for themselves.

With that in mind, I do not see ferocity causing any actually reason for anything to shift. The problem isn’t damage in actuality, or how it changes, but with the misconception of the general players base who is more apt to spew misinformation based on presumption and conjecture, or to simply regurgitate and believe what they read, rather then to actually test builds and keep track of damage facts instead od working of said presumption or feeling.

As much as i want to agree with a fair portion of what your saying MonMalthias, the fact is, you make a lot of "statements’ that you either have no evidence what so ever to support, or are blind conjecture, or just your personal opinion. The problem is, you state them as if they are fact, then go on to continue working off of opinion and conjecture as the building blocks for your statements.

You make statement after statement after statement claiming this issue or that problem with Anets management, or balance team, or testers. MonMalthias, I have to ask, what do you do for a living, and where did you go to school? I ask, because to make as many claims as you have, and to word it as you do, to suggest you have some reason to have more insight then the rest of us, should at least come with come credentials.

I challenge you to prove your claims and exclamations. You make claims slandering management, you make statements about their processes for fixing bugs and balancing (while I doubt you have any more insight then anyone else on this and your statements are 100% assumption and conjecture), and frankly, a good portion of your wording is misleading and you make a lot of accusations as well as many disparaging comments in an effort to come across as is you have proof, facts, or special insight, when you absolutely do not.

I am all for expressing an opinion on the game, its direction, and what you feel about it. As well I am all for having discussions based on those opinions. But once you begin to pretend you have a clue about individuals, their jobs, how their processes work, how their structure actually functions, then make negative remarks and disparaging remarks, all i feel you are doing, is using the forums to promote the equivalent of your own personal blog. No where in your original post’s do I see you seeking other feed back or take steps to open discussions, you simply have 3 full post to open up this thread, all full of personal opinion, accusations, conjecture, and negative claims, with no real facts to support it, then continue your discussions under the pretense that all of your conjecture is actually true.

This lecturing, personal blog of yours, has no business here. You don’t appear to discuss any actually balancing discussions. Not to say that your opinion doesn’t have value or that this post doesn’t belong on the forums, I am more specifically referring to it being in the balance subforums. Your OP has inspired literally zero honest balance discussions, and should be placed somewhere more appropriate.

glaphen.5230:

coglin.1867:

Well yeah, it is extremely clear it is trolling, when literally 1/2 of all the professions have access to stealth, and they are making a thread “crying fowl” that the engineer of all professions is OP because they can hit you from stealth, yet mentions nothing of the thief or mesmers ability to stealth mass amounts of players.

Ranger and Mesmer don’t have stealth pulls. Thieves don’t get a 3 second block from taking their pull so it isn’t in any meta builds. Meanwhile every single Engineer uses Tool Kit with every current meta build.

Umm, yes, mesmer absolutely does, and theirs is AoE.

Well yeah, it is extremely clear it is trolling, when literally 1/2 of all the professions have access to stealth, and they are making a thread “crying fowl” that the engineer of all professions is OP because they can hit you from stealth, yet mentions nothing of the thief or mesmers ability to stealth mass amounts of players.

In the OP you suggest your are posting on what “people” want. More accurately, you you stated that it as “things you feel people want”. I am curious, who specifically are the “people” you are claiming to represent here?

1) I could care less about guild battles, but I am not against them

2) Guild halls are the biggest waste of development time possible. they do not offer anything new in game. I much prefer they spend the time on the bugs of my favorite profession.

3) I have hated mounts in every game. All they do is cause lag and serve no real functional value to the game.

4) How many WvW servers have you played on? Because they do not all “zerg” all the time. If you only zerg in one big blob, you will be destroyed in WvW by the 5 groups of 15 that take 4 keeps and 2 caps at the same time against you. Perhaps you should stop applying your single server experience and claiming it applies to all.

5) No.

All of the arguments aside, you have to admit, at least the OP tried to experiment and test his suspicions before complaining. Compared to all of the posters who simply cry fowl and call something op because it kicks there butt. Personally, I find the OP trying it out personally and testing it personal an extremely valid and compelling evidence to support his opinion on the matter.

you can argue his conclusions all you like. It does not change the fact that the warrior is OP and that in its current state, it is ridiculously out of the scope of the balancing philosophies as they were stated:

" Warrior

We want the Warrior to be capable of good melee damage in a sturdy body. They can still do some decent damage at range, but they aren’t as good at it as the Ranger (with their pet). They have a hard time taking enemy boons down, and instead, have to just go through them with raw force. They may have a hard time with enemy conditions, and may need to ask for ally help in order to keep themselves free of hampering conditions. "

Clearly after playing a warrior, anyone with an ounce of reason would read the balancing philosophy and think to themselves, “Hard time with enemy conditions???, I don’t know what they are talking about, Warriors can easily shrug conditions off.” Being able to even consider that thought is clear evidence that they have gone off the rails and need to make the adjustments to put the Warrior much more in line with their own philosophies.

I am not grasping the complaint here. A pure glass cannon necro, crit-ed well on the OP, who never blocked or dodged, and is complaining that they took a lot of damage? All I am reading in the OP is that an enemy player came up to him and he permitted him to land his initial attacks when he could clearly see them coming? Irrational complaints of this nature are ridiculous, and the cause of unnecessary concern. The OP needs to spend more time reacting properly in battle, and less time complaining on the forums about what happens when he doesn’t act, then takes damage.

It was originally called shot gun. It got changed in the very late closed beta. At that time only the engineer had this weapon. They added it to warrior and at that time, and changed it to rifle. I fail to see why it should be changed to “shotgun” though, personally.

Vulnerability if your in a party, at least in the scenario you offered. This offers a 25% damage increase X5

Exedore.6320:

If you’re talking WvW, severely nerfing the +40% and -40% condition duration food would be a good start. Both are incredibly powerful and the -40% condition duration foods really hurt CC condition use. On top of that, group condition removal may need to be re-examined. Large WvW groups tend to ball up, easily ensuring that team condition removal hits the maximum number of targets. In comparison, many conditions are single target application.

“Incredibly Powerful” based on what? +40% is required. PVT Soldiers gear gear which has as much defense as the blindly complained about Dire gear, yet offers significantly more damage. The +40% food is almost required just to hit 50% duration to be competitive with Soldiers gear. Based on those facts, I cannot see what makes the food so “incredibly powerful” when the food only brings that type of damage in line with its power counter part?

A great many of your ideas are counter intuitive to engineer game play as a whole. You go from ridiculously over powered, to remove very good skills and traits all together, to changing great skills and traits to useless, I just don’t understand 90% of you ideas here as to how they would relate to usefull builds in game play. I have no idea what would posses you to push to redesign the entire profession. If you are unhappy with it, simply make another profession to play.

Rhyse.8179:

I won’t waste space to restate the OP. The bottom line is that as long as the two mechanics are linked, then changes to one affect the other. Whether it’s cleansing, duration, traits, skill cooldowns, condition stacking, it’s all piled together in one big mess. Any change to one aspect affects many other aspects in unintended ways. This hurts all facets of gameplay.

I disagree. It does not hurt the game play in the least. Based on the fact that it is all but mandatory to run 50% or better condition duration just to keep up with direct damage in PVT gear alone (much less the higher damage gear set ups) it is an essential benefit to be able to bury your damage in debuffs or minor CC conditions. 2 dodges and a single condition cleanse can negate a ridiculous amount of condition damage, or burn the opportunity an enemy has to snare you in some form of CC.

Regardless of what you meant or what you care to accuse me of missing, I fail to see how you have presented a supporting argument to “claim” that not separating harms the game in any way. You may claim it to be “one big mess”, but I assure my friend, players using intuitive game play put every one of those on you at specific times, for specific reasons. Intelligent players do not randomly spam CC or conditions with no thought. Not those who play to win anyway.

P.S. How is confusion confusing to you? You state that it is “completely bonkered”, when it is extremely straight forward in its functionality. It is a damaging condition that causes damage upon weapon skill or utility skill usage. I have to be honest here and point out, that if you have to ask what a condition does, why do you feel you are qualified to tell us “This hurts all facets of game play”…….The only stat that effects both control conditions and damage conditions is condition duration. You suggest your ideas make an ease of balance, when that is completely false. Your suggestion forces a developer devotion to an entire third category. Stun breakers for knock downs, knock backs, fears, pulls, sinks, and launches…………Condition removal for bleeding, burning, confusion, fear, poison, and torment…..And yet another entire cleanse for blind, chill, cripple, and immobilize……..Yet where does this leave weakness, vulnerability, and the heal debuff of poison? Seems to me your wanting to add an entire level of unnecessary complication, skill splitting, skill rebuilding, and new skill set to counter your new effects label that falls outside of stuns and conditions. In no way do I see your suggesting simplifying any thing in the least when it comes how they effect one another.

There is no need to change CC condition to a separate category as debuff or damage condition. This simply creates an unnecessary and unneeded complication.

I do find it a bit comical though how it seems to be the “cool” thing to do now, to start a thread condemning condition damage and CC now, particularly due to the fact that when you do a flat comparison of soldiers and dire gear, that soldiers gear extremely heavily out damages condition builds with dire. Condition builds are at a disadvantage when damage is compared. Cripples, chill, and immobilize, as well as vulnerability strongly benefit direct damage builds, probably more so, but can be essential to bury damaging conditions to prevent them from being cleansed.

Condition builds need 50% condition duration just to keep up. This math has been hashed out and proven. Yet so many posters make blind statements claiming otherwise. I can only assume they make such statements based on perception in game. Why anyone would act on such assumptions and feeling with no logical fact or proof is beyond me, but apparently it is the “in” thing to do.

Yes, CC is an inconvenient pain in the backside. It locks people down and annoys the heck out of them. But guess what. That is precisely what it is designed to do. As an engineer for example, with grenade flight time, or bombs explosions delays, CC can be essential to actually landing that condition damage.

I just cannot see any reason to separate them. Simply because something annoys you is no reason to segregate it so that it can be handled in a more convenient manner for you personally. There are very literally hard counters to CCs. There are also traits that negate CC fully to a limited extent. Traits that cut down CC duration and value. There is food and runes that negate CC. There are skills that quit literally cancel CC.

With all of this in mind, I just cannot accept a change is needed.