Guild Wars 2

I agree that it is in a good place.

My biggest issue is with the bugs. Fixing key bugs would be a massive improvement. Then again, that can be said for any profession.

My second biggest issue would be to have some traits that I feel are almost never used, removed, and some trait aspects that were removed, to be returned. Now I only speak of my experience and discussions with engineers in my guild or that are on my server in WvW that I talk to.

I have never met anyone who says they use soothing detonation, medical dispersion field, health insurance, or gadgeteer, for example. Yet I know many people, including myself, who enjoyed, and regularly used pistol piercing traits, the old gadget trait, or elixir infused bombs.

Notsoperky.2348:

You know your on the defensive when you have to pick apart a post line by line to try and break up the argument.

If you say so.

I am not sure how it was relevant to anything, but I guess your entitled to whatever assumptions you wish to make.

Notsoperky.2348:

If you liked the mechanics and the new map (there is only one, copied three times, in case you didn’t notice) then that was your opinion at the time. So far, that opinion (based on the numbers I don’t see in wvw compared to before the new map came out) appears to have been the wrong one as far as others enjoying the game mode is concerned.

I thought they were fine. Most of my feedback was that I thought the tower/keep lords scaled a little much. I felt that walls and doors were over tuned.

Mostly I had issues with some bugs. Some of which they fixed, others were not. Such as the obstructed issues.

Notsoperky.2348:

I applied but it seems mostly large T1 guilds were accepted for the testing. It’s a shame that they either didn’t state their views well enough to get anything changed and we ended up with a map that appears to be deeply unpopular, or they were blinded by having large numbers in the map and didn’t stop to consider the majority of players who don’t play on queued servers.

What method did you use to apply?

How many T1 guilds got in? I didn’t see that when I was on.

Well there were only 3 servers up to test, so all the testers were essentially in 1 tier. I do not know how population effected feedback.

Notsoperky.2348:

I’m not closed to others having opinions, but you might want to look in the mirror in that respect.

Why would I want to do that? I am not on the unreasonably salty side.

Glade I have a fan in you though.

Notsoperky.2348:

If you really think the new map is a success, then I can’t help you. We’ll just have to agree to disagree.

Hmm, you should probably refrain from jumping to conclusion. This goes back to my references about the salty side. You appear to think that simply because I do not despise the new maps, that I love them. I argued against the idea of new maps long ago when all the complainers demanded them simply for a change of scenery. I am not in favor of the new maps, I simply do not hate them.

I do like some of the new mechanics though.

I totally agree with you that the rewards are poor in WvW. I do not agree with Devon either. I do not feel he gave a very good explanation either.

To me, it seems a little odd that so many posters are complaining that they do not go to the maps because no one else is there Isn’t that a bit of “self fulfilling prophecy” syndrome going on there?

Notsoperky.2348:

Applied, but since I have a ‘chequered’ posting history (ie, Anet forum mods delete and ‘moderate’ my posts as I am quite forthright in my opinions) I wasn’t accepted.

What method did you use to apply?

What does post history have to do with in game material? I know for a fact that players I am well acquainted with, that are banned from the forums, were invited.

I think your under a misconception that the forums are the only way to offer feedback in a beta, that is grossly inaccurate. Nor have I seen any evidence that forum post have anything to do with the invitations. DO you have evidence of that?

Notsoperky.2348:

Maybe those that beta tested should have been more vocal in their objections and made their points of view more forcibly known at the time, then we wouldn’t have this mess?

How so?

I think your working under a misconception here as well. Do you have any evidence that that all the testers disliked the new maps or mechanics?

Notsoperky.2348:

Perhaps a lot less talk and a lot more action from the beta testers?

Perhaps more action from you. Did you even apply to test it?

You appear to be all about blaming others. If you honestly feel your forums behavior has everything to do with it, perhaps you should spend more time accepting responsibility for your own action. Those who tested it do not owe you anything.

Notsoperky.2348:

It’s funny how the main defence is now that anyone who doesn’t like it is ‘crying’ about it. We’re not ‘crying’ about it, we are expressing our opinion about it, which is that we don’t like it.

That would be true, if you were not closed to anything those who disagree with have to say, as I feel many others are. Personally, I have trouble taking all the negative feedback seriously when it started on day one. Not even a month and some seem to claim they are definitively correct to dislike so many things. Personally I simply feel many were resistant to change, and started feeding on one another salt.

Notsoperky.2348:

I’m sorry that you felt so upset by my post (cried about it?) that you felt you needed to divert from the purpose of the thread and try and discredit me.

How did I attempt to discredit you? By not agreeing with you?

Notsoperky.2348:

Can’t remember saying I was quitting the game in any of my posts.

Oh, you play PvE or PvP? Sorry, it seemed to me that if you felt WvW was as bad as you suggest, that you wouldn’t play it anymore. If you enjoy the PvE, or PvP, I can see why you would stick around.

zxstanyxz.8769:

Azure.8670:

Actually hes 100% right. Weapon Swap wouldnt destroy the profession at all. You have very little to say, so youre focusing on his use of the word “forced”. You offer little to no feedback other than to look for ways to attack his wordage. Engi has been, and still is, in a fine place.

The problem is that every build is FORCED to take MULTIPLE kits to be VIABLE in anything beyond killing moas open world. I love kits, theyre great, but it destroys our utility.

I havent used a build with more than 1 kit in 6+ months, in both pve & pvp & have had no issues, so no you are not forced to take multiple kits, you choose to take multiple kits

Now that you mention it, some of the PvP tournaments have been won by teams with engies with no kits and all elixirs, and many many have been won by teams with engineers with only 1 kit. Seems at high level, that slick shoes and elixirs are quit popular in most builds.

Chorazin.4107:

The current support options are lackluster at best, i wrote a relatively in depth write up on why MDF and SD are terrible a couple months back. These are your 2 core support traits, i understand they made some alterations to MDF in a recent patch but tbh i have just given up on Engi for support.

You want to support your group? Get off your engineer and grab your Guardian seems to be what Anet are saying. Guardian just does support 10x better.

As far as I can tell, no one is asking to play support, much less for guardian level support. I am simply asking for the return of a trait that added some support to a kit I value.

Wryscher.1432:

coglin.1867:

Sich.7103:

@Coglin : it’s not because you was on a bad server with tons of troll that we have all sufer the same issue… On Piken we had some troll but not all the day… Even not all weeks..
And those players should be banned from WvW… Now all the community is punished because of those troll.

Seems somewhat ill-informed to declare an entire server as a “bad server” when it is players from an entirely different server that come over to troll.

The thing is, you have to look at it in the scope of more then just yours or mine. As there were very literally new threads, daily, complaining about this issue. I have to be honest, and say, I am genuinely surprised that you show such support for maintaining systems that promote trolling.

I have to be honest, and say, I am genuinely surprised that you show such support for promoting your experiences over others. When I have seen you time and time again explain to people that they have to take everything into account. Not just a few disgruntled people posting on the forums.

I am not sure how what your suggesting (seems kind of shady that you presume to speak for me) but I do not see anything particularly subjective about all the daily threads complaining about siege trolls, supply trolls, and hackers under maps. I haven’t seen a single complaint on those yet.

What does any of that have to do with the thread topic of a lord getting locked outside a keep?

I tend to agree with you.

There was a dev post recently that offered their logic behind limiting WvW rewards. I absolutely did not agree with that answer in the least though. Unfortunately, I could not find that post in a quick search.

Phlogistn.7893:

Running a havoc guild previously. Anet has destroyed WvW for smaller guilds. We can’t take objectives because we can’t hold enough supplies, which we can’t upgrade because building a guild hall takes large guilds with multiple players working constantly. No one enjoys playing in the borderlands, EB is queued ridiculously. Did any of the Anet developers run with any smaller guilds while “testing out” WvW ? Or was it all zerg. I mean…even pulling the repair merchant from the EB keep and making us go to spawn.

gg

I don’t know about that. I literally took every keep on the BGBL last night with a 5 man team. They eventually brought their EB force over to try to take it all back.

If you will post a video of your group failing to take a keep, I will post a video of us taking that very same keep. My experience suggest it was an issue with tactics or player skill, and not the maps or mechanics, as I haven’t had issues with my group doing what your claiming cannot be done, and we did it just last night.

Azure.8670:

Actually hes 100% right. Weapon Swap wouldnt destroy the profession at all. You have very little to say, so youre focusing on his use of the word “forced”. You offer little to no feedback other than to look for ways to attack his wordage. Engi has been, and still is, in a fine place.

100% right eh?

You appear to confuse your subjective opinion with that of actual objective fact.

Offering that he stated provable dishonesties is quit a lot to say if you ask me. Simply because you do not like something, doesn’t make it okay to be dishonest about it. Getting angry at me for pointing out facts doesn’t help your perspective for the destruction of the profession.

Azure.8670:

The problem is that every build is FORCED to take MULTIPLE kits to be VIABLE in anything beyond killing moas open world. I love kits, theyre great, but it destroys our utility.

Did you capitalize the words you knew you were going to use incorrectly?

Not certain you are aware what viable means in relation to GW2. I think what you mean is optimal. Viable is subjective at best, and varies between skill levels.

Azure.8670:

Now if all our utilities were just Kits and/or Elixers, we would be fine, but its not that way. We just got a handful of gyros that cant fit on our utility bars. Now, youre going to just sit back and say play another class thats not how its meant to be etc, which is fine, youre entitled to your opinion, but dont say his opinion is to “Destroy” a class when he explained, to the T mind you, on why he believes what believes what he believes and you just sit back and say Forced, heh.

I have videos posted that disprove this entire paragraph.

I do not think opinion means what you think it means. By definition, something make in a declarative statement, is not an opinion. It requires a qualifier of subjection, or perspective.

Doesn’t strike me particularly rational to claim that although he said one thing, that he meant another. If he meant something else, perhaps you should let him clarify that. Something tells me clairvoyance is not your strong suit.

Tiilimon.6094:

Cast time for bombs is 0,5sec, and they blow up instantly if you have the Short Fuse trait, so that’s 4150 hp/s.

No, they do not blow up instantly.

IN the best case scenario, you get a bomb every .9s. In my testing, spamming as fast as possible, I get 64 bombs off in 60s.

Thus averaging 2282 heal per second not 4150. And that is in a purely devoted heal build, and doing much damage……..

It isn’t particularly strong, so I do not understand the occasions cry of OP by the misinformed.

Tiilimon.6094:

edit: oh, and you can totally play a healer for friends at the moment dude..
actually you can heal more and better than when EIB still existed, it’s just a lot different now.

Not every one is asking to “play a healer” I am asking to have a support trait returned, that added value to a kit.

Tiilimon.6094:

It’s tactical and not spammy, you have to think to the future and kitten, not just tap 5 buttons and occasional HT.

This is about as dishonest as it gets. What is spammy? Link me a build that you claim is not spammy and I will make a liar out of you. Every aspect of this game is “spammy” by definition. If you are not hitting a button every second, in a fight, it is very safe to state you are doing something wrong.

Tiilimon.6094:

edit: also, keep in mind that you can’t compare damage and healing simply as numbers, because damage can be mitigated in many ways, for example dodging, blocking or breaking line of sight.
Healing can only be mitigated by 33% with poison condition or the healers incompetence/target running away from heals

Healing can be interrupted, mitigated by CC also.

Manuhell.2759:

David.5974:

Do you want 10 sec cd on weap swap?? I recommend new kit but never weap swap. If you want weapon swap play other class.

What about playing this class, not being forced to take kits all the time, and be free to use all those other utilities that can’t find a slot exactly because we already have to use those slots for kits?

“Forced” doesn’t mean what you seem to think it means. I guarantee you that when you utilize a kit, you “chose” to use it.

The profession is designed around being optimal with kits. The funny part is that this was suggested shortly after the profession was announced, and reinforced during the betas, it is not like this is a new concept here.

All I see is that you are requesting that they destroy the profession as a whole, for your personal desires. That is a bad reason to do anything.

Manuhell.2759:

Kits as they are now force devs to balance all the class over them – main weapons included. And it is obvious why they have to do that – if they balanced the class over the main weapon only, a kit engineer would be overpowered. So they have to balance over the “worst cases”. Problem is, there are a ton of gaps in between…and such a balancing forces us upon the worst cases" itself.
That’s the glaring issue with the class. Even if most people just want to ignore it willfully. We’re a class forced to be balanced over assumptions. Making those assumptions reality in doing so.

Again, you appear to let the meaning of “force” confuse your point and intent. What is worse is that your point about why they cannot balance around main weapons only supports how adding a weapon swap would be horrible. Then they have to change all turrets, gyros, elixirs, and gadgets in a negative way. NO thank you.

Manuhell.2759:

And with elite specializations it even became more absurd.
We get a main weapon that can’t work standalone due of us being balanced over kits.
And we get utilities that we can’t actually take because we’re forced to use kits anyway.
And it will be the same for any single future elite specialization we’ll ever get. They are supposed to change how we play, but for us, all it changes are some buttons in a rotation for that brief time in which we aren’t using a kit.
And people are satisfied with that. Heh.

Again the definition of "forced is tripping you up. Feel free to play one of the 8 professions with weapons swap.

I can’t believe you would so awfully suggest destroying the entire profession for your personal desires, Heh.

Ragnar.4257:

My analogy is still valid. You can’t justify breaking one thing by saying it fixes another.

You appear to confuse your subjective opinion with that of actual objective fact.

Seems to me it fixed everything and broke nothing. It didn’t effect Zergs. Roamers still make massive contributions, as your server gets 3 ppt points per yak they kill or yack they escort in, then can still build defensive siege up, kill enemy players, take back, and keep camps.

No aspect of the WvW roles fundamentally changed. Some of the minutia did. I get a distinct feeling that your simply being resistant to change in general.

Notsoperky.2348:

coglin.1867:

Random.4691:

coglin.1867:

Random.4691:

Why would I give useful info ? Useful info has been plastered all over the WvW forums some of which I have given. The thread topic is a question, I answered that question, providing any meaningful info at this point is moot, they will do whatever they want to do without regard of what the players are asking for or warning against. They proved this when they let none WvW players test the map because they were streamers over the people who could have actually given proper feedback on our behalf. But ya let’s let Doc Got Game and his casual minions who spend most of their time playing other games or PvE’ing test the WvW map because that will surely help provide real feedback.

I cannot speak to the others you personally attack but, I am a primary WvWer, and not a streamer. My guild only has 2 who stream, they do it for fun. 60 of us tested the map.

You are speaking about things that you know absolutely nothing about.

When you refuse to offer productive feedback, even when asked, all that suggest to me is that you do not honestly care about the game, it’s, state, or possibly improving it.

Re-read what I post, you and your friends were not the only ones there and judging by your posts in the past I have a hard time finding you would have given any productive feedback.

What does arenas and GvG have to do with WvW, see Chaba’s response. Lastly once again the topic is a question, the question was answered. If you don’t like my answer that is your prerogative but try to realize not everyone has a carbon copy answer that you will agree with which means all answers or opinions are valid.

I never mention taking umbridge with your answer to the direct question of the threads title. I simply corrected you on your misinformation you posted about who was or was not invited.

I’m glad we finally established that 60 people from your guild tested the map.

Now we know who to blame for the terrible map- or did your feedback get completely ignored like anyone else who said anything other than ‘my god, how great this map is for wvw’?

Perhaps therein lies the problem- they invited a huge guild to test the map without giving any thought to smaller worlds or smaller coverage.

Random has posted a lot of feedback, and the post before the one you highlighted detailed exactly what has happened.

No amount of ‘your opinion doesn’t matter’ and ‘your opinion doesn’t reflect the majority’ (who says? you? that’s just expressing a non-factual opinion at the same level) will cover up the bare fact, which is that for most servers (apart from yours, apparently, but then again you helped test it..) the new BL delivered the exact opposite of what attracted players to wvw, and as a result they are dead.

Trying to cover that up and make it seem like everything is fine when one person posts a video of a 5 man ‘raid’ in a BL just reeks of desperation.

You and yours should have applied to be ones to test it. Seems to me your argument is that you failed to even try, since you failed to apply to test it, then cry about it later. Perhaps you should have been a little les talk, and a lot more action, when it comes to this issue.

By the way, since your quitting, can I have your stuff?

Ragnar.4257:

coglin.1867:

The thing is, you have to look at it in the scope of more then just yours or mine. As there were very literally new threads, daily, complaining about this issue. I have to be honest, and say, I am genuinely surprised that you show such support for maintaining systems that promote trolling.

Coglin, if I dumped a great big pile of manure on your drive, then you would be in your rights to complain and demand that I get rid of it.

If I choose to get rid of it by planting a mine under it and blowing your entire front yard sky-high, would you think it fair that when you complain, my response is “hey, you asked me to get rid of the manure, and I did, so what’s your problem?”.

Just because they technically solved one problem, doesn’t make the solution acceptable if it breaks something else.

Your analogy doesn’t make any sense.

The funny thing, is you see no one offer any acceptable alternative, you just cry about the one you got. If it was so simply, why did you not offer a good solution.

They solved the hacker complaint, the needless gold sink complaint, and the extremely vast demand to make defending easier, all in one change.

Sich.7103:

I support to ban all troll…. Not to remove something that was interesting to play (at least for me).

A troll can justify and present an argument for a lot of what they do. They can create siege that they intend for supply wasting, but you cannot ban them for building siege on walls or around camps.

As well, it is not very rational to have a system that allows troll and pay manpower to deal with them, when you can simply have a system that doesn’t benefit and support trolling.

Sich.7103:

It’s not because we have thief in real life that we remove money…. We catch those thief and send them in jail…

I feel a little sad if your having difficulty differentiating “real life” and the “game”. But there is a difference, they have different rules.

Your not very aware of how the real world works if you actually believe that systems do not change in order to prevent troll. Point in case, got to an airport now, and compare it to going to an airport in early 2001.

Sich.7103:

But anet never care about that, they never took the time to act against players who destroy the game. That’s te real issue.

They didn’t? Interesting. Your taking the disingenuous claims so far as to imply you speak for them? Odd since there are whole threads dedicated to them calling out, banning, and tending to trolls, as well as videos of it.

Sich.7103:

@Coglin : it’s not because you was on a bad server with tons of troll that we have all sufer the same issue… On Piken we had some troll but not all the day… Even not all weeks..
And those players should be banned from WvW… Now all the community is punished because of those troll.

Seems somewhat ill-informed to declare an entire server as a “bad server” when it is players from an entirely different server that come over to troll.

The thing is, you have to look at it in the scope of more then just yours or mine. As there were very literally new threads, daily, complaining about this issue. I have to be honest, and say, I am genuinely surprised that you show such support for maintaining systems that promote trolling.

Dawdler.8521:

Ravezaar.4951:

Condition Damage and to make it as easy-cheezy as possible slap on a pair of Plex

Good luck running around in very wide circles to get anywhere because you aint getting through those barricades.

Maybe you won’t. He should be just fine though. Those barricades are little more then a speed bump, and do not need much damage at all to remove from ones path.

Sich.7103:

Yep, it’s time war now… Before you could just killed all the dolly and starve the keep, then no upgrade will happen during the attack.
Now that’s is over, Welcome to time war.

Well that sure beats it being troll war.

I would rather have a definitive factor that was easy to see, then new characters from the other servers, showing up every other day, and building 19 ballista at each supply camp se that we never have supply to upgrade.

The reflect animation of hammer #2 seems to have an issue as well. There is a delay before both the reflect and the animation start. This makes it very problematic to make clutch reflects, such as with those pesky long bow users everywhere.

nacario.9417:

Offair.2563:

^ Manual upgrades – running dolyaks – keeping camps safe/reflip them, THAT generated fights for roamers. And that is all gone now with this auto pilot.

This. The old love is gone in these new layered pve maps, devs claim to listen yet this very basic feature that makes magic in wvw is taken out.

And what an excellent well written post OP. Im just glad EB isnt all that changed, as that is the map Ive always stayed in. The stealth fountain is redicilous though.

All of that still exist when I play.

I mean you get 3 points toward PPT for each yak that gets into your keep. You get 3 points for each yak killed. You get PPT points for killing sentry. By having the sentry’s on your side, they inform your server of nearby enemies. So one and so forth. Roamers offer plenty of value to their servers. Roaming has great value for those that I know.

Looks like you had fun.

Funny thing is that everyone swears up and down that no one every uses the BLs. Glad to see my tier is not the only ones who do.

Sich.7103:

If it’s to the player to drive WvW why did they add so much automatic stuff ? And sentry who show ennemy on map ? They remove a lof of human interaction to add scripted AI…

They did some automatic stuff because it was overwhelmingly demanded for. Trolls building questionable siege in order to burn supply to prevent upgrades from occurring were getting bad. But they were building siege that could be argued wasn’t direct trolling.

I am a little unsure how you missed the very daily new thread about trolls, as they occurred, well, daily, because it was such a problem. This solved that. It was extensively discussed in many many threads. I am not certain how you could have missed it.

Sentry’s showing enemies on maps was also very heavily discussed and very often requested. I am not certain how you missed that either to be totally honest.

Both those additions removed many more real problems then the faux problems I see posters having to use paragraphs to try to create.

I often wonder where some of the posters who do not like it were during all of the discussion before the changes occurred. I often see many of the posters complaining, have post history displaying their support in the very aspects they complain about now. Which is really odd.

Dawdler.8521:

coglin.1867:

When you talk about not worrying about losing a keep because you will simply recap it for the benefits, then you are part of the problem as I see it. Seems to me that you are promoting Ktraining out of a pure inability to adapt.

Inability to adapt to what? The new completely kitten backwards design that plays on basic human psychology and make players not feel needed as opposed to an upgrade system that encouraged player involvement?

Yeah you are right. I may just be a little unable to adapt to that.

I am glad you agree I am right, thank you. But what exactly was your complaint here? Your wording is so obscure and non specific. Can you conceptualize and explain better?

If your unhappy with the new maps, why do you have 37 post in the earlier threads demanding that we needed new maps?

Wryscher.1432:

coglin.1867:

Dawdler.8521:

coglin.1867:

Dawdler.8521:

Catalin.5341:

I don’t really understand why scouts think auto-upgrades and no supply needed for them are a bad thing.

Because auto-upgrades give them no reason to be at a keep/tower/camp other than to cap it.

Yes, its as simple as that. It doesnt really have to do with scouts. It has to do with players having the very basic reason for being in WvW.

When you remove that you get a game that’s playing itself.

In my opinion, anyone who thought upgrading keeps was even in the top 3 things a scout needed to do, is terrible at it.

I never said they upgraded the keeps and crap specifically. Just watching over a keep until it had for example a waypoint was an important task.

Now it doesnt matter anymore. Loose hills, its just another keep. Loose garri, well recap it and it’ll have a waypoint. Why even bother. Upgrades may take a bit longer, but unless there is someone trying to cap things everything will get upgraded. Few people bother to dolly hunt.

If they were not upgrading keeps, then what is your complaint? What were they doing there then, in your experience? If they were not upgrading keeps, then the auto upgrades shouldn’t matter.

If your not watching over a keep now, and ensuring it gets yaks in order to upgrade at double time, then in my opinion, your failing at your job.

When you talk about not worrying about losing a keep because you will simply recap it for the benefits, then you are part of the problem as I see it. Seems to me that you are promoting Ktraining out of a pure inability to adapt.

Having those keeps as long and as often as possible absolutely does matter. If that doesn’t make sense to you, then I do not know what to tell you.

Jayne.9251:

coglin.1867:

Dawdler.8521:

Catalin.5341:

I don’t really understand why scouts think auto-upgrades and no supply needed for them are a bad thing.

Because auto-upgrades give them no reason to be at a keep/tower/camp other than to cap it.

Yes, its as simple as that. It doesnt really have to do with scouts. It has to do with players having the very basic reason for being in WvW.

When you remove that you get a game that’s playing itself.

In my opinion, anyone who thought upgrading keeps was even in the top 3 things a scout needed to do, is terrible at it.

Naw, if it was used strategically, it was an essential part of being a good scout.

It could be, yes. But it was not even needed. My point was simply that any passer by could upgrade it. Sometimes players enjoyed that. Other times you had designated players who were donated money to, for the cost, and they ran a route.

In our case, we had a scout pool. A group of us that enjoyed or didn’t mind scouting. Often we simply rotated out in shifts to do other things or participate in different aspects of what was going on in the map.

The new borderlands working out that well for you too eh?

I know, i know conpletely out of context. But you are in a thread about how scouting was killed by the new bl, saying that it wasnt, or shouldnt be. Yet writing about your own scouting groups in the past tense like they no longer exsist. Funny right?

Well since you asked, yes, they exist. Yup you took it out of context.
We are rather enjoying the influx of players. Alot of old friends and new alike comming in to the game. While some are crying, making knee her reactions, and showing thier inability to adapt to the very changed they clamored for, My guild had adapted and grown. It has been really fun.

Dawdler.8521:

coglin.1867:

Dawdler.8521:

Catalin.5341:

I don’t really understand why scouts think auto-upgrades and no supply needed for them are a bad thing.

Because auto-upgrades give them no reason to be at a keep/tower/camp other than to cap it.

Yes, its as simple as that. It doesnt really have to do with scouts. It has to do with players having the very basic reason for being in WvW.

When you remove that you get a game that’s playing itself.

In my opinion, anyone who thought upgrading keeps was even in the top 3 things a scout needed to do, is terrible at it.

I never said they upgraded the keeps and crap specifically. Just watching over a keep until it had for example a waypoint was an important task.

Now it doesnt matter anymore. Loose hills, its just another keep. Loose garri, well recap it and it’ll have a waypoint. Why even bother. Upgrades may take a bit longer, but unless there is someone trying to cap things everything will get upgraded. Few people bother to dolly hunt.

If they were not upgrading keeps, then what is your complaint? What were they doing there then, in your experience? If they were not upgrading keeps, then the auto upgrades shouldn’t matter.

If your not watching over a keep now, and ensuring it gets yaks in order to upgrade at double time, then in my opinion, your failing at your job.

When you talk about not worrying about losing a keep because you will simply recap it for the benefits, then you are part of the problem as I see it. Seems to me that you are promoting Ktraining out of a pure inability to adapt.

Having those keeps as long and as often as possible absolutely does matter. If that doesn’t make sense to you, then I do not know what to tell you.

Jayne.9251:

coglin.1867:

Dawdler.8521:

Catalin.5341:

I don’t really understand why scouts think auto-upgrades and no supply needed for them are a bad thing.

Because auto-upgrades give them no reason to be at a keep/tower/camp other than to cap it.

Yes, its as simple as that. It doesnt really have to do with scouts. It has to do with players having the very basic reason for being in WvW.

When you remove that you get a game that’s playing itself.

In my opinion, anyone who thought upgrading keeps was even in the top 3 things a scout needed to do, is terrible at it.

Naw, if it was used strategically, it was an essential part of being a good scout.

It could be, yes. But it was not even needed. My point was simply that any passer by could upgrade it. Sometimes players enjoyed that. Other times you had designated players who were donated money to, for the cost, and they ran a route.

In our case, we had a scout pool. A group of us that enjoyed or didn’t mind scouting. Often we simply rotated out in shifts to do other things or participate in different aspects of what was going on in the map.

Dawdler.8521:

Catalin.5341:

I don’t really understand why scouts think auto-upgrades and no supply needed for them are a bad thing.

Because auto-upgrades give them no reason to be at a keep/tower/camp other than to cap it.

Yes, its as simple as that. It doesnt really have to do with scouts. It has to do with players having the very basic reason for being in WvW.

When you remove that you get a game that’s playing itself.

In my opinion, anyone who thought upgrading keeps was even in the top 3 things a scout needed to do, is terrible at it.

The removal of bloodlust was one thing I never understood. It appeared to be that it was fairly unanimous among players, that anything that gave a point for killing (even if it was restricted to spikes only) was a good thing. As far as I am concerned, they should have expanded it to any kill and not just spiked, and not removed it.

Phantom.8130:

It’s essentially the same event that the original Orb event was, only with an NPC carrying the orb instead of a PC, so that a hacker can’t get it and flyhack, like what was happening with the original orb event. (yes, the hackers were also wall jumping/fly hacking into keeps to get the orbs afterwards, but this system completely avoids that since there’s no orbs in the keeps once the event is accomplished). And this would also have quite a bit of PvP involved with it as well, since the orb carrier would need to be defended. So it would be two (or three) servers attacking each other while an NPC is present. Very similar to a battle in the Lord’s Room of a tower/keep currently.

I do not see how this justifies adding a PvE mob and therefore PvE event in WvW. One of the most common and largest complaints is that Players do not want PvE in WvW. Simply because you can find another PvE mob to liken it to does not make it a good idea, it makes it a bad one.

Random.4691:

coglin.1867:

Random.4691:

Why would I give useful info ? Useful info has been plastered all over the WvW forums some of which I have given. The thread topic is a question, I answered that question, providing any meaningful info at this point is moot, they will do whatever they want to do without regard of what the players are asking for or warning against. They proved this when they let none WvW players test the map because they were streamers over the people who could have actually given proper feedback on our behalf. But ya let’s let Doc Got Game and his casual minions who spend most of their time playing other games or PvE’ing test the WvW map because that will surely help provide real feedback.

I cannot speak to the others you personally attack but, I am a primary WvWer, and not a streamer. My guild only has 2 who stream, they do it for fun. 60 of us tested the map.

You are speaking about things that you know absolutely nothing about.

When you refuse to offer productive feedback, even when asked, all that suggest to me is that you do not honestly care about the game, it’s, state, or possibly improving it.

Re-read what I post, you and your friends were not the only ones there and judging by your posts in the past I have a hard time finding you would have given any productive feedback.

What does arenas and GvG have to do with WvW, see Chaba’s response. Lastly once again the topic is a question, the question was answered. If you don’t like my answer that is your prerogative but try to realize not everyone has a carbon copy answer that you will agree with which means all answers or opinions are valid.

I never mention taking umbridge with your answer to the direct question of the threads title. I simply corrected you on your misinformation you posted about who was or was not invited.

Chaba.5410:

Random.4691:

This was suppose to be the time of … old GvG guilds coming back to take advantage of guild arenas

Not exactly. It is a little bit of a situation where these changes came too late. The dedicated players already spent a hardcore amount of time and have now “been there, done that”. Guilds look for a high level of competition. If you follow the scene at all you’d know that the competition quality is rather low right now. There wouldn’t be much of a challenge for old guilds.

For that matter, what does GvG guilds and guild halls have to do with WvW in any way? If Randoms argument is that GvGers return for guild halls arena battles, why would anyone expect to see them in WvW? Seems to me that entire discussion has nothing to do with WvW,

Well, it does matter. We are talking about a map comparison. Not what you deem as the “main combat area”. You literally gerrymandered the map, and excluded obvious portions of the map, in a dishonest manner. Thus, it suggest to me that your more concerned about attempting to be right over actual being honest.

Given that I already stepped up and done it, and proved I am correct. The onus to disprove it is on you. You were the one supporting claims that were presented with no actual facts or evidence.

Random.4691:

Why would I give useful info ? Useful info has been plastered all over the WvW forums some of which I have given. The thread topic is a question, I answered that question, providing any meaningful info at this point is moot, they will do whatever they want to do without regard of what the players are asking for or warning against. They proved this when they let none WvW players test the map because they were streamers over the people who could have actually given proper feedback on our behalf. But ya let’s let Doc Got Game and his casual minions who spend most of their time playing other games or PvE’ing test the WvW map because that will surely help provide real feedback.

I cannot speak to the others you personally attack but, I am a primary WvWer, and not a streamer. My guild only has 2 who stream, they do it for fun. 60 of us tested the map.

You are speaking about things that you know absolutely nothing about.

When you refuse to offer productive feedback, even when asked, all that suggest to me is that you do not honestly care about the game, it’s, state, or possibly improving it.

atheria.2837:

coglin.1867:

Sich.7103:

the old map with the new mechanic will be the same problem…. It’s not only the map… It’s all around…

How so?

I have seen no real evidence of any issue with the maps that would cause this, other then players feeding on one another fear and refusal to accept something new.

The maps are equivalent size.

They added varying aspects to each keep as was overwhelmingly demanded.

They changed the upgrade system to prevent the excessive supply trolls, as was a very popularly demanded.

They added an important event in the middle to draw all 3 sides into 3 way battles away from keeps.

They made it more difficult to turtle down and treb keeps from inside the safety of another keep, that was also strongly demanded to have done. Meaning you have to expose yourself more in order to attack and start a siege against another keep.

All changes that satiated the overwhelming demands of the public here on the forums.

How so?

It’s so automated that there is no personal interaction nor responsiblity to any solo person or small three man guilds and WOW are there a LOT of them.

Its sickening to see Anet nerft WvW instead of listening to the players in the first place.

It is not near as sickening as players who do not appear to know what was actually asked for. They listened to players, then they gave them changes that fir the criteria of what the posters unspecifically demanded.

If you lack of awareness of what was requested, “sickens” you, perhaps you should go back and read the “demands” for changes.

atheria.2837:

We need far more health.

We “need” it? Why?

atheria.2837:

We need our pets to have at least as much life as pvE

That already exist. Go to PvE and enjoy it. Personally, I am not a fan of being dependent on AI for my gameplay.

atheria.2837:

We need mechanics that work.

Which mechanics don’t work? How do they not work?

atheria.2837:

We need our darn Alpine maps BACK, these are the worst ever and the daily to find the ruins can’t be done.

You keep dishonestly saying “we”. Are you an elected public representative? “We” do not need them back. To be more accurate, some whiners simply claim to “want” them back. Their is a difference.

I do agree that they need to fix that daily.

atheria.2837:

Fifty to twenty – Anet has no idea how to balance WvW but players do and many have said it, use only those who are playing to “place” any WvW server.

Fiftey to twenty?

They do okay at balance. I can tell you one thing though, most players are worse at balance then Anet will ever be.

What does your personal agenda about professional balance have to do with the new BLs in any way?

atheria.2837:

My gosh this is getting old after three years – now many of us have been told not to play our toons if they have specific bugs.

I feel your dishonestly making this up. Do you have a link to this being officially stated?

atheria.2837:

You may not know what’s going on in WvW, but the rest of us who have been here since pre-Release do and we are highly insulted by Anet.

I know what is going on. I guess you chose to go with personal attacks and accusations, when your argument is weak on actual facts? Interesting route, not my first choice, but to each their own I guess.

Odd you would say such things when I am almost positive you were on my pin, and following my lead most of the evening last night.

I am baffled that people would actual recommend more AI pets.

I would prefer a MH direct damage weapon. I want a cross bow.

Dawdler.8521:

Except that the major reason the border is a failure is because it actively discourages small groups. Everything thats been changed about WvW has made blobbing the most viable option and reduced the importance of small scale, roaming and scouting

How so? It might be helpful if you offered some perspective as to how you come to that conclusion.

Sich.7103:

You speak about that video ? : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vwt76dwYAQ
Or that map : http://i.imgur.com/FvoAThM.jpg

A lot of path use the teleport from rampart or the pad from palace…

Like spawn to rampart… Rampart to palace….

No, I mean the side by side, split screen comparison one. I have no idea why you would ask if it is one that took the paths I specifically mentioned were not taken in the video. Oh, well.

Sich.7103:

But don’t worry, continu to defend the new map and all the new game mechanics.
But I see EB with 50 man queue, and no queue on BL… And BL empty during the day…
Do you think that all those people just don’t want to learn the new map ? They don’t like the new map and / or the new mechanic.

I will, thank you. I am happy I have a fan in you. I accept your blessing to do so.

No, I do not claim to tell you or anyone else what others reasons are, that is their job to express their opinion. I am simply sharing mine. Though it would assist everyone in the discussion if you refrained from disingenuously attempting to tell us what other desire or think. It is probably best if you stick to speaking for yourself.

Sich.7103:

If this new map was so incredible we should see more people playing in game. We should see queue on BL… But nop… We don’t see that…

Did you see a queue on the old BL just before HoT released?

If you lie, check out my post history, I have posted some photos of the post HoT, with queues of 15-25 on the BLs.

What tier do you play on? NA or EU? If your not in my region, on my tier, obviously we have different experiences. That, and I have a good, fun guild, and we enjoy ourselves when we play. We have had some good three way battles on the new maps and enjoyed them. I am sorry if it upsets you that I have had a positive experience.

Jim Hunter.6821:

coglin.1867:

No offence, but if you cannot take a keep that is manned by 5 people, when you have a “zerg”, the fault is on you. All the upgrades do is cause more damage needed to take down a wall or gate.the time difference it takes is not game changing in any meaningful way.

As well, you can do the oasis event and take a T3 gat to 25%. You have to do a very very poor job to fail against 5 with a zerg, regardless of what tier a keep or tower is.

For once you are right. The auto upgrades doesn’t make a big difference for zergs.

Probably more often then not actually, but thanks for noticing.

Jim Hunter.6821:

It does play a big part in the destruction of roaming though. Camps aren’t mandatory for upgrades so people aren’t in a rush to defend them, they just wait inside their towers and keeps for you to get bored and move on before coming out to back cap them.

Nothing killed roaming, nor do I buy your claim here. “You” may be running off, or not defending them, but me and mine seem to. As we value having our upgrades done twice as fast as without the yaks.

Jim Hunter.6821:

No effort went into upgrading anything so people don’t care as much about defending. They will show up if they are close, but they rarely map hop or make the run to defend stuff if it’s far.

I don’t think you have a know what people do or do not care about. But you sure try hard to disingenuously claim to speak for them. Perhaps it would be best if you stick to speaking for yourself, and sharing your opinion, instead of claiming to say what everyone else is doing please. That might be better for everyone.

Jim Hunter.6821:

While zergs can still burn through T3 structures, it now takes at least 4 people to build 1 piece of sup siege, which means roamers are doing a lot of running for supply or spending 20-30 min per tower, longer for a keep.

Which adds more value to those who roam and take the effort to do so. Which in my opinion, contradicts your claims of it killing roaming.

Jim Hunter.6821:

And the sky splitter doesn’t take T3 gates to 25%. It needs to be fired 3 separate times to open T3 gates.

Well then, what does it take them down to, percentage wise?

Sich.7103:

coglin.1867:

They didn’t. Once you learn the routes, it takes the same time to run across the map. I believe the video comparison in another thread suggested the new and old maps are with in a few seconds of one another to run from end to end.

and now just try to use the same route, but without controling the keep…. Run from spawn to rampart…. Run from south east camp to palace without controling the shrine or the keep…

Run from spawn to palace without controlling rampart…

You say it’s need the same time, but only because you control Rampart or at least 1 shrine at palace… Don’t use those pve portal and tell me how much time you need…

Those routes were not used in the original comparison. Nice try though. If you disagree with this evidence, why don’t you take one of your old videos and compare it to one you make in the new map? Unless you base your statements on an actual evidence or relative comparison, your proving my point further, that players are making false assumptions about map size and time it takes to travel it, with no evidence to support it, other then inaccurate assumption. Seems to me the general perception of traversing the map, and the reality of it, compared to the old map, are biasly skewed.

yanoch.7051:

I think it`s going as they are planning. Slowly reduce WvW pop and demoralizing it and when they will introduce mega server BL we will all be happy…

Why would they make so huge BL maps?

They didn’t. Once you learn the routes, it takes the same time to run across the map. I believe the video comparison in another thread suggested the new and old maps are with in a few seconds of one another to run from end to end.

I think your mistaken. The players inability and refusal to adapt, or in many cases, even bother to learn the new maps, is what is demoralizing.

Most things posters are crying about now can be linked to massive threads in which such things were strongly demanded. In many cases, a post history, ironically shows some of the biggest complainers now, were making demands for the very changes they are crying about now.

Dawdler.8521:

Sviel.7493:

Every other day I meet someone who’s in WvW for the first time. I party them and we go on a havoc field trip flipping camps/sentries/towers and defending w/e needs defending. Without fail, they’ve been totally smitten with WvW.

So, we might lose some people who poo-poo the new map, but there’ll be fresh blood to replace them. Unfortunate, but fine by me.

And then once they discover that most people dislike borders and queue EB or EoTM instead, they will also queue EB or EoTM so that they can play together with other players. There will be no fresh blood to replace anyone.

I feel that is a poor assumption. Many people do not blindly dislike something purely because they discover others dislike it. Many people try things for themselves and make thier own discussions.

Taking camps is not useless. It takes literally twice as long to upgrade if you get no yaks in. I hardly call that useless.

Taking the shrines benefits you by removing thier benefits to the enemy that they can use against you.

Tiilimon.6094:

Just think how drastic changes they would have to make for engineers if EIB would come back, scrapper with eib comes to mind too.. sheesh

You guys understand that we got an almost 7 second water field when EIB was removed as well? With 1500 range.. You can also blast from the same range with orbital strike into it, twice.

It simply cannot be put back at the moment, sad but true

Waterfield have absolutely nothing to do with EIB. Other professions have waterfields, and attacks that heal on each use. I do not feel your argument holds water at all.

No offence, but if you cannot take a keep that is manned by 5 people, when you have a “zerg”, the fault is on you. All the upgrades do is cause more damage needed to take down a wall or gate.the time difference it takes is not game changing in any meaningful way.

As well, you can do the oasis event and take a T3 gat to 25%. You have to do a very very poor job to fail against 5 with a zerg, regardless of what tier a keep or tower is.

morrolan.9608:

coglin.1867:

morrolan.9608:

Keeps were never able to be trebbed from other keeps after they stopped bay being able to be trebbed from garri.

When I say keeps, I was refering to towers as well. Anywhere is which players could safely treb from behind a secure wall, that could be highly sieged.

As well, you could treb towers from the spawn area and be completely untouchable.

That gives them strategic importance, to take for both sides, and it does encourage fights over the objective whether its open field or not. Fights are fights, most players want fights whether its open field or over objectives. Its the GvGers that mainly want open field, so the open field thing is overstated.

I hear what you are saying, and to an extent, I agree. The problem is that fights over a keep and open field fights are very different. What I was trying to point out is that there was extensive feedback, demanding a new map, and even more feedback demanding that it create more open field fights. I am simply pointing out that the changes we have now, meet the criteria of some of the multiple threads with more then a thousand post in them.

As well, I personally like that you cannot simply treb from the safety of a well siege tower or keep now.

morrolan.9608:

coglin.1867:

morrolan.9608:

Keeps were never able to be trebbed from other keeps after they stopped bay being able to be trebbed from garri.

When I say keeps, I was refering to towers as well. Anywhere is which players could safely treb from behind a secure wall, that could be highly sieged.

As well, you could treb towers from the spawn area and be completely untouchable.

That gives them strategic importance, to take for both sides, and it does encourage fights over the objective whether its open field or not. Fights are fights, most players want fights whether its open field or over objectives. Its the GvGers that mainly want open field, so the open field thing is overstated.

I hear what you are saying, and to an extent, I agree. The problem is that fights over a keep and open field fights are very different. What I was trying to point out is that there was extensive feedback, demanding a new map, and even more feedback demanding that it create more open field fights. I am simply pointing out that the changes we have now, meet the criteria of some of the multiple threads with more then a thousand post in them.

As well, I personally like that you cannot simply treb from the safety of a well siege tower or keep now.

morrolan.9608:

coglin.1867:

Straegen.2938:

Someone pointed out in another thread that no game expansion should remove players earned capabilities.

HoT not only fouled up the BLs but basically killed the guild system for all but the most dedicated large guilds. Our small guild will never get back what we had.

How so?

When you make a complaint like that with no real reason to justify it, then the counter argument is a simple, “no it does’t”.

Probably because its self evident that EARNED progress being deleted is annoying, and he’s not saying it will ‘break’ his guild. My guild is very annoyed about it but we are working to get it back anyway.

I think you missed my point. My point was that it is not particularly constructive unless you name what aspect you feel were taken away with a little detail.

The other issue I see, is that your perceive something as “self evident”. I see some of these aspects through a different lens then you, as others do. We all have our own lens. It strikes me as very irrational to simply blindly presume they feel the same negative feelings as you do. I see no problem with it because they added great depth to the guild aspect. Such as filling demands for guild halls, guild arenas, and so one. As I see it, everyone started from scratch, at the same point t, when it comes to guilds. So if you want to have an honest discussion about it, perhaps it would be wise to drop the assumption, and explain a reasoning, when posting about an issue with something.

Poi t in case here, you continued to avoid offering an explanation, but instead, demanded I should be reading your mind for what you deem as " self evident". Which seems very counter productive in my opinion.

Was playing with friends and guildies not your main motivation for WvW before? Because that is my main motivation, and nothing that has changed WvW, or guild systems, effects our ability to play and have fun together.

Jana.6831:

Both of you view the scenario from different angles. And honestly, although you made good points XTD, I’m with Nate on this for now.

It isn’t that hard to get a T3 objective but it’s very hard to defend paper.

This is one of the point ts I was trying to make somewhere earlier. Only I think you two hashed it out more, and you worded it better, and more directly. I agree with what your saying.

My other aspect is supply trolls. Some posters have made arguments about devoting man power to banning them, but I do not feel that is reasonable. The reason I feel that way, is that a troll can build siege such as ACs and ballistas at a camp to burn supply, and thay can be justified as claiming it is to defend a camp. Or they can make golems that are not needed, but that is justified as well. With the new system, at least keeps will get upgraded, albeit much slower, at least it is no longer stopped entirely with this system.

morrolan.9608:

Keeps were never able to be trebbed from other keeps after they stopped bay being able to be trebbed from garri.

When I say keeps, I was refering to towers as well. Anywhere is which players could safely treb from behind a secure wall, that could be highly sieged.

As well, you could treb towers from the spawn area and be completely untouchable.