Guild Wars 2

Mork vom Ork.2598:

Shaogin.2679:

I guess you’re talking about WvW? Cause in PvE and sPvP you can just click their name on the party UI and hit “F”.

And now please explain how we invite all of the 30+ people fighting the HoT boss into our party…

The only place where the function gyro mechanic is close to useful is sPvP.

It is useful to spike in PvP and WvW, as well as aiding a downed ally. It is also useful in large PvE events to aid downed players. But if you are doing a large event such as the Mordramoths mouth, or events leading up to it, world bosses, or something like that, it can be near impossible to target and aid a player at times.

I do so enjoy when a Thief main goes to another professions subforums and complains about stealth. The irony is pleasing.

Due to it taking up the rare resource of an elite slot, the fact that it doesn’t keep up with a mobile player, the fact that it can be destroyed as fast as any turret, and that it will bug out on any terrain, I hardly call it particularly strong.

As a matter of fact, doesn’t a skill have to be basically, unanimously used by all or almost all players to be defined as over powered, by MMO standards?

Yeah, I have posted about this before myself.

Personally I would like to have 2 targeting options that I could bind to a key. One to tab through downed enemies, and another to just tab through downed allies.

Seems like the best all around solution in my opinion.

Sich.7103:

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

GROMIT.7829:

As for defending why should we defend, no time, energy or gold went into upgrading anything so no one cares if it flips, especially at night coz come morning everything on everyborder is T3 again with zero input.

Score maybe? You know, those numbers that tell you who win?

PPT is not all…. You earn nothing if you win the MU… Your server don’t earn nothing if you win the MU… But building and defending a keep with WP is more interesting because you have to make something (starting upgrade, protecting doly, team work) and you have something usefull in return (the WP).

Couldn’t disagree more.

Sorry, but I would rather have my server work together and win the match up. I couldn’t care less about any given WP from week to week if we were losing g every week.

In what respect OP?

They work fine and have had a recent and significant change as far as PvE is concerned.

I have found Purge gyro to come in fairly handy.

I got a wild hair and decided to go full on scrapper with hammer, and scrapper runes. The healing gyro, blast gyro, bulwark, purge, and sneak gyro. Shocking speed, Rapid regeneration, and Final salvo. I have a constant 750 heal tic up before using healing gyro. Protection injection and iron blooded, combined with -7% damage gives me all kinds of direct damage negation. Add in some heals and damage from bunker down, and I find well timed dodges and gyro rotation allows me to simply stay in my enemies face and have my fun.

Cleansing synergy, hidden flask, and transmute all working together with purge gyro seems to handle any conditions just fine for me.

GreenRipper.6432:

Irenio alive??

All other professions are having bug fixes pretty much every day, and we have not had even one.

Anet could launch next path notes: Engineers are discontinued.

They are also having nerfs every day.

What bugs are you most worried about seeing fixed? Your top 3 concerns?

Thee is nothing wrong with bulwark. Anyone claiming it is not viable is either over reacting for the attention to a perceived issue, or has a bit of a learn to play issue.

WvW Never had a 95% damage reductions, and this skill serves me great purpose there, and survives better the some of the claims here declaring a lack of survivability in PvE.

Cogbyrn.7283:

So you think the purpose of WvW is to have large groups of players fighting. It’s a nice thought. I’m sure it’s a purpose. But the purpose?

Yeah, that is its basic purpose, is to offer people that battle environment.

If your going to question it, with an implication that it is not the purpose, the least you could do is offer a reasoning that it wouldn’t be the purpose, and most of all, enlighten us on what you think the true purpose is.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

Sidizen.9048:

I think that Anet should bring the old BL’s back just for a week to see if some people come back to WvW and play on the old BL’s. This could help us see if WvW is truly dead.

People would just play the maps purely as a reason to justify the new map hate. Then they’ll go back to complaining that WvW gets ignored as people continue to zerg blob ktrain.

Couldn’t agree more.

reddie.5861:

just revert WvW to what it was problem solved..
.

No it wouldn’t. Not even close. Then we would lose all the new irrational complaints and trade them back in for the old irrational complaints, while still having empty BLs.

The maps were not exactly full before. maybe at prime time, but not so much otherwise. PvE is crazy full at the moment, and has some really nice content, with some really nice rewards at the moment. Some even feel they “have” to complete it in order to be competitive, for the gear, ES, and what not. Others, I suspect, claim to hate the new BLs out of flat out fear of something new. Most of the people digging their heels in on disliking them, posted about it on the day of the new maps release. Which suggest to me, and likely, Anet, that you may not want to take them too seriously. The WvW community posters basically self created the issues at hand, with that sort of behavior.

saturn.4810:

While the devs listen to the PvE and PvP complaints, and made some changes already, in WvW nothing like that happens.

Except that nodes were nerfed…

That is very dishonest to say. The PvE threads are full of similar complaints. The PvP threads are full of similar complaints. Every change added to WvW was demanded by multiple member of the player base in various threads. To claim the do not listen is extremely dishonest. The problem, is who they listen to, that is the issue.

Cheebavibe.6359:

What’s the point of this post exactly? Should I take my WvW concerns to the HoT thread or the main GW2 forum? Would that help?

Some people need to leave people alone to complain. It works both ways.

Yet your going to comment someone else for mentioning the notion that folks should offer constructive feedback instead of making rude complaint post. Doesn’t the content of your post, completely contradict itself?

For what game aspect? PvE ?

You can use glass cannon, aim assist rocket/shaped charge, and thermobaric detonation for an added blast and damage. Those traits benefit almost any build?

Personally, I am a fan of the inventions line.

You are show horning your opinion of the graphics of their self destruct, and attempting to use a graphic to define it as a function. What do you mean “How do they not?” ?

My hammer auto attack third strike has a slight lightening animation, how does it nor stun or create a lightening field?

You see what I am getting at. You cannot associate an animation, with an effect you connect to a trait. The elixirs were labeled elixirs in a different color in the tool tips, and in the name of the skills. Gyros have no labels that would associate them as a whole, with explosives. I could perhaps see “blast gyro” with its name, harking back to explosives, but they are not explosives.

What is there to explain? They are not explosives.

Now you can trait for benefits from gyros destruction, by investing the the right traits in the scrapper line.

Sanity Points.8073:

Too large, too gimmicky, too much PvE.

How do you suggest it is too large, when is literally the same size land mass as the old borderlands?

Jim Hunter.6821:

Dawdler.8521:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Dawdler.8521:

Jim Hunter.6821:

You just described why it sucks for roaming.
No one is there upgrading the bl since it’s on auto pilot, and since upgrades require no effort and the towers/keeps are completely disconnected, no one cares to defend.

This means the only way you’ll find a fight is if you just happen to run into each other.

True, but you can still roam. The meaning of it is not always the explicit purpose to disrupt dollys… Sometimes I just run around. Most of the time I cap camps without caring of the strategical value.

But as I said, its boring. Yes, the meaning is diminished, so that means less players and less recaps, which in turn mean less to cap and slower gameplay for everyone. WvW would be 1000x more fun with connected towers keeps and X amount of dollys required per manually triggered upgrade, which would no doubt bring back players and give them work to do.

That’s not roaming, that’s….. I don’t know….. exploring?
I mean that’s like saying you can find a ton of fights on the new bl……. you’ll be fighting PvE mobs or doors, but you’ll technically still be fighting.

To be honest, “exploring” has always been 80% of my roaming… Its been like that on alpine too. Most people are afraid to fight unless they can 5v1 you for a certain kill, lol. There is no need to glorify roaming to high heavens, but yes it definetly does suffer with this new design since there is no reason for anyone, roamers or otherwise, to hold the map caps other than for PPT.

Even if I still can do it, its not going to be very fun in the long run, no. Especially not when I know that the only ones I will meet out there are explorers like me :p

The difference was you could force people to come fight or they would surrender the upgrades they invested hours into.
That’s why it is so important that upgrades need to be manually started and require supply. And that towers and keeps are within treb range of each other.

Those issues have nothing to do with the actual borderlands. That has to do with the new upgrade system.

If they gave you the old borderlands back, with the new upgrade and supply system, how would you justify calling the old borderlands better for roaming?

Dahkeus.8243:

coglin.1867:

Dahkeus.8243:

Rocket Boots with Gadgeteer is really fun, but there’s just very little practical reason to ever go with rocket boots, let alone gadgeteer.

I completely disagree. It is great for being a solid scaling direct damage and burn with rocket kick, a mobility aid, and most of all, a blast finisher. It is also great for getting you out of trouble in a hot spot.

Oh, sure, it sounds nice when you describe it on it’s own, but it just doesn’t fit in any legitimate build. Elixir gun will cover the blast finisher and mobility while also giving you a stunbreak, poison cleave, condition removal, and amazing synergy with HGH.

Pretty much any time you’d want to take rocket boots, you’d be better off taking Elixir Gun instead.

Why are those 2 mutually exclusive?

I will often run P/S with HT/EG/BK/RB/Motar for a 7 blast finisher build and 7 different fields available to blast.

Or hammer, HT / EG / Bulwark gyro / RB / Mortar.

You may not like those builds, but your confusing your subjective opinion with that of actual objective fact if you blindly declare them as not being a “legitimate build”.

I have been commanding in WvW for years on the first build, well with supply crate, until mortar came around, that is.

Both the RB skill and tool belt skill are AoEs as well.

Perhaps a combination of ideas here.

Make them stuck to your character like function gyro, to give the visual queue that they are in play. Then make the active gyro effects work off the engineer similarly to how the toolbelt skills from bulwark and medic gryo do. That way when the gyro pathing gets wonky we don’t lose out.

The only issue I see with that is with blast gyros functionality in this case. Perhaps they could have the dart itself blast when it hits the player?

Something along these lines would make gyros infinitely more useful.

Dahkeus.8243:

Rocket Boots with Gadgeteer is really fun, but there’s just very little practical reason to ever go with rocket boots, let alone gadgeteer.

I completely disagree. It is great for being a solid scaling direct damage and burn with rocket kick, a mobility aid, and most of all, a blast finisher. It is also great for getting you out of trouble in a hot spot.

They need to make the active gyro effects work off the engineer similarly to how the toolbelt skills from bulwark and medic gryo do. That way when the gyro pathing gets wonky we don’t lose out.

Spurnshadow.3678:

Lord Kuru.3685:

Argos Helios.4965:

I’d just like to know if the numerous and very real problems that have been raised in the hundreds of threads over the last 2 weeks, and 2 years will ever get noticed by Anet. We all know what these problems are…

Please just say yes or no Anet…Stop stringing us on with that loose statement that the entire live dev team will work on WvW after HoT release. Will WvW get attention?

Just want to know so I can give up building for the future or not. Most of us were kinda expecting some kind of resolution with HoT release…not a bunch of changes to make things, much, much worse.

Think about this: Do you really even want them to focus their attention on WvW? Look at the damage they’ve to WvW with the limited amount of attention they have given it:

• failed bloodlust area,
• failed eotm,
• failed new BL,
• failed golem event (yes, this minor compared to the others, but is an example of how out of touch they are)

All failed because they refuse to acknowledge that their vision of WvW is completely different from their customers’ vision.

If they do put their full attention on WvW, are they going to completely change their vision? That’s really far fetched. More like they will continue their failed vision, except this time with the full force of the company behind them. Not a good thing.

I think bloodlust was a great addition to WvW.

Yeah it seems to me that everyone in my circles enjoyed bloodlust, and EotM is packed 24/7. I fail to see how either of those can be deemed as failures.

GuzziHero.2467:

They don’t track fast enough, they don’t track well enough, they don’t do enough.

I agree with the first 2 for sure. As I have posted before, they need to make the active gyro effects work off the engineer similarly to how the toolbelt skills from bulwark and medic gryo do. That way when the gyro pathing gets wonky we don’t lose out.

As to your last portion, which gyros do not do enough, and why? Purge gyro does enough in my opinion, bulwark gyro is awesome, sneak gyro is everything you expect. Medic gyro could use a tad more.

I feel like your just trying to complain rather then offer constructive feedback. Don’t do that. It is one of the bad habits that encourages the devs not to post in a discussion.

GuzziHero.2467:

They are all pretty much functionally useless.

I am not sure you actually know what that means. They all function as advertised, other then the pathing issues.

GuzziHero.2467:

They should all be permanent active other than stealth, shredder and blast to have any functionality at all, and they should follow like necro minions in my opinion. Plus blast, shredder both need a huge damage buff. Plus… do these things even receive stacking rune effects?

You literally just declared “they should all”, then immediately contradicted it in the same sentence offered exception to 1/3 of them. Why not just detail your issues and thoughts for improvements for each one.

GuzziHero.2467:

When a shredder on a level 80 Scrapper cannot down a group of 3 level 8 moas without intervention… yeah, it needs a HUGE buff.

That is irrational in my opinion. A utility skill should not be capable of soloing 3 anything. For one, this game scales you and consequently your utilities. If your going to clutter the discussion, by making a thread for your own opinion, instead of contributing to an already existing thread on the same topic, you should at least not make comments that are counter to the most basic understanding of the game.

leviathan.2148:

Killyox.3950:

Everyone who wants to get working skills and is tired of same old for 3 years+ now.

I want them too, however gyros do not bring much and are buggy, slow and their ai is still stupid as hell :/

You appear to confuse your subjective opinion, with actual objective fact. You made a broad negative statement, that opposes what skilled players have previously stated, and you repost to argue against anyone who finds them useful.

Gyros have pathing issues. They need to make the active gyro effects work off the engineer similarly to how the tool belt skills from bulwark and medic gryo do. That way when the gyro pathing gets wonky we don’t lose out. But some of them do in fact bring very much to the table. They need work, absolutely. If you cannot find use for them, that is on you, that have some handy effects in half the cases.

msalakka.4653:

White Knight Apologist:

Knee-jerk reactions are what gamers do best when it comes to change. Also, sweeping generalizations must be in season, because everyone is speaking on behalf of “everyone”. Those are are really rejecting the changes are the vocal minority who are frustrated enough to log into forums to complain. Many others are just doing Halloween/expansion content.

EDIT – Forgot the second part. Even after profuse complaining, many people will eventually come back and tool around. sPvP just doesn’t provide the experience you’re looking for when you are a WvWer, so though it is shiny and chrome right now, the pull will happen eventually.

No, they won’t. They’ll go to CU as soon as it hits beta or some other RvR. WvW fanatics don’t just suddenly become PvE enthusiasts because the same tired Halloween event returns.

Yeah, that is what everyone said about elder scrolls online too.

Yup, I feel I was seeing the same issue. I was actually going to test this tomorrow, to make 100% sure it is bugged.

Jim Hunter.6821:

BrickFurious.7169:

Per this interview with Colin that was released today:

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/473/feature/10256/Guild-Wars-2-Heart-of-Thorns-One-Week-In-with-Colin-Johanson.html

That being said, I’d also add one of the goals of Heart of Thorns was to address every major game system to ensure they had all the core components we need for the future of the game. Our goal was to ensure we didn’t really need to tweak any major game system again after this expansion and our focus could be entirely on adding new content, and building on top of – rather than expanding outward systemically. WvW is the one major feature I’d say we didn’t end up accomplishing this goal, the project is so large it didn’t end up fitting into the scope of the expansion and we still have work to do to address core fundamental issues like population balance, rewards, scoring, night capping, etc. As always we don’t discuss features in development until they are far enough along to share meaningful details, so for now we’ll just say WvW is the final big game system on our radar – and we’ve had a lot of great conversations with our players about what they’d love to see from epic large scale PvP combat.

And per John Corpening’s statement two months ago:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/WvW-Invitational-Statement-from-John-Corpening-game-director-for-World-vs-World/first#post5350913

But World vs. World is huge and complex and so is the technology behind it. We’re continuing to work now on developing and building our solutions to the core issues I outlined above, and once we reach a point in development where we are far enough along with them, we look forward to sharing those plans with you. As work on Heart of Thorns wraps up, we’ll be treating resolving the remaining core areas in WvW as our #1 live development feature priority for the game to ensure we deliver on making World vs. World not just the great experience it is today – but the incredible experience we know it can be. As this effort ramps up you will be hearing more from us about the work in progress.

TL;DR: They’re working on it. It’s one of their top development priorities right now. No ETA yet, but they are working on it.

As always we don’t discuss features in development until they are far enough along to share meaningful details

Maybe if they did they wouldn’t spend months working on things that fundamentally fail.

we’ve had a lot of great conversations with our players about what they’d love to see from epic large scale PvP combat

What?!…. Where? …. Someone check twitter.

TL;DR: They’re working on it. It’s one of their top development priorities right now. No ETA yet, but they are working on it.

That’s something new and different than what they have been saying for years….
/s

So you want them to open communication, then make negative post when they do? That doesn’t strike me as a very wise path toward more communication.

History has proven if they discuss an idea that doesn’tmake it in game, that they get unreasonable backlash. The tone and wording of your post, in itself, makes my point.

Couldn’t agree more. It shouldn’t be Ling before the paths through maps an keeps become second nature for me as they were in the old maps.

Feedback is one thing. Outright bashing and disingenuously claiming they said stuff that they did not, is another. This type of accusation and QQ when they try to open WvW dialogue is exactly why we receive so little dialogue.

Perhaps it would be wiser to offer your complaints in a more constructive manner. When you make post that cannot be stomached, how can you reasonably expect your feedback to be digested?

I know we are all focused on Scrapper and gyros right now, but can we get some traits for gadgets in general. Sure, rapid regeneration as a trait, aids with slick shoes, but can we get some better traits for gadgets and not forget about gadget trait needs?

They sound the same to me. They just do not create combo fields anymore.

They need to make the active gyro effects work off the engineer similarly to how the toolbelt skills from bulwark and medic gryo do. That way when the gyro pathing gets wonky we don’t lose out.

I see a few claims that the maps are “too big”. What metric are you using to determine that?

Kanebrake.6192:

Tiffany.8576:

It’s amusing. The other month people were up in arms because Mike O’Brien insinuated that very few people played the WvW game mode exclusively. Now when you ask where all the WvW players are, you’ll be told “they’re in PvE.” Guess he was right afterall.

This is true only because they’ve made WvW so bad that PvE has somehow become more tolerable.

You are incorrect. PvE is required to access some od the ES skins and to unlock the ES themselves, as well as being the most efficient way to max out the hero points needed to unlock it all.

ImLegion.4018:

No.

Go further in progress, not stay behind. The Yes people are just out of their comfort zone, don’t want to adept nor find new strategy. Give them a wide open field with nothing and they might like it.

They should have changed EB too, so people will take their time to learn and play it.

One thing I wish they would change in EB, that the new BLs have, is how they reworked the ledges on the keeps.

AnniMira.2506:

Please remove Skyhammer. Anet devs promised to give us a possibility to sleep and to work without easy caps at meanwhile. Skyhammer can be done easily and it opens all gates. Impossible to defend when our players are away.

Four or so enemies did the event and opened gates to “hills”. I had time to close only 2 outer gates. I died on the third gate. Closing means just closing, not repairing properly. It was easy cap. I was alone in the map and could not stop them doing the event. I could do nothing.

Anet devs promised. They did opposite.

I do not recall reading that, do you have a link to what “promises” they specifically made?

No.

I prefer to see everyone complain about borderlands they havn’t actually tried, rather then the hundreds of threads I saw before that were demanding a need for new BLs with more choke point.

I prefer to see folks complain about getting what they demanded.

Noblehawk.8036:

With all the new pulls/pushes/traps and other crowd control mechanics they could probably double the stability stacks, make it unremovable for 3 seconds and still see reason to nerfhammer half of the new skills in game.

…but then again why would people grind for elites if they weren’t OP as kitten.

After a week, how would people conclude they were OP without grinding for them in order to actually try them?

I do not find the elite specs to be OP. In several cases, I find I do better to not use the elite specs in many cases.

Personally, I think the gyros active effects should just center off the engineer similarly to the bulwark and healing gyros toolbelt functionality. That would elevate a large amount of the pathing and speed issues.

My first suggestion is to not rely on meta battle. I am not suggesting it is bad. But it is not a one size fits all catalog. Craft some different builds and experiment. See what aspects seem to work and keep them, while experimenting with other aspects.

It would help if you posted the build and your best guess at the druid builds that are giving you a problem.

Those same valleys and paths make for superb chke points to fight large forces. I see the new maps as much better at funneling players together for good fights.

Decado.9304:

Haegar.7530:

not only are there not enough people on the maps, I cant even level my specialization or masteries effectively in wvw… I only play wvw!! I’m stuffed!

I give it 4 weeks. Then I’m off…

tragic, really!

I find wvw reasonably good for masteries. 2-4 hps per wvw level and with boosters the levels come fast

I agree. But mostly it is infinitely more enjoyable in my opinion.

I don’t know what you guys are talking about, I think it looks great.

X T D.6458:

Not just you, t1 NA is unplayable, they raised the map cap god knows why so there’s more people on the map for each server. Theres probably more this reset then last weeks, because more were doing pve hot/Halloween stuff. Not to mention all the gimmicks and map mechanics that are straining the already inefficient servers.

Got a link to where they discussed that they raised the population cap?

When did the lag start? I wasn’t on Friday night, but I had been in WvW during prime, and late into the evening all week on JQ and I hadn’t experienced any. Did it start last night?

They didn’t add anything. They transfered it from food that was often complain ed about, to the gear. Causing a choice between offensive and defensive stay choices. Which was an extremely popular demand.

clarkcd.6532:

I’m too busy playing and having fun in HoT to convince you.

shrug

Couldn’t agree more.

I agree that the scaling of keep lords is over tuned. I feel the walls and gates of upgraded keeps are a bit over tuned as well.

briggah.7910:

Jamais vu.5284:

Tiffany.8576:

It’s amusing. The other month people were up in arms because Mike O’Brien insinuated that very few people played the WvW game mode exclusively. Now when you ask where all the WvW players are, you’ll be told “they’re in PvE.” Guess he was right afterall.

Heyo! I’d like to introduce you to a guy – me! I am a hardcore WvWer! I exclusively played WvW during its heyday.
Due to a plethora of reasons, I have quit WvW (and thus GW2) in early 2014. I am not the only hardcore/exclusive WvWer who quit. Far from it. Guess who is mostly left now? Non-hardcore players, who only do WvW like 5% of their game time as a novelty thing. Because those who only did WvW have quit long ago because ANet does a p-poor job at WvW.

Seriously, you could have arrived at that yourself.

Always anets fault. Never the players. You’re part of the problem in my eyes. You quit close to 2 years ago yet still lurk the forums and spit out your hate towards anet and this game mode. I feel bad for new players that come to these forums. Forum is full of people that don’t even play anymore yet still hate on this game every second they can..

I was fine with this game mode never changing but NOOOOOOOOOO. People wanted changes and now will not adapt to any change. I saw this coming after the few test events we had and that was just temp stuff yet the rage in these forums was real.. Players is what is starting to ruin this game mode for me and nothing else..

The new pve content is actually challenging. Mobs there give me better fights than 99% of the players I run into in wvw. Plus they don’t nike away when they get below 50% health. Its no longer boring stack here and spam 1 to win. You would know all this if you actually still played then you might actually realize why wvw is so empty ATM.

I couldn’t agree more. Seems so odd to me that folks swear up and down that the quit and don’t play, yet post things on the forums, claiming to know what is going on in game.

Not only that, but my experience suggest he is wrong as well. I see literally hundreds of players throughout the week, that are hard core and have been around since release. I am not suggesting things are full, and all is divine. But I certainly do not see the sky falling.

I see very many trickling g back into WvW, but my friends list is full of players doing PvE because it is more effecient for the elite spec.

If super speed stacked, there is no doubt they would nerf rapid regeneration though. Because I could easily stack enough super speed to keep it up 100% of the time. And there is no doubt in my mind that they would not allow the engineer to have 600 heal per second up at all times. It would be entirely to easy to keep both SS and swiftness up 100% of the time. As it is now, I keep swiftness up 100%, regent up most of the time, and chain SS so it is almost always up. I am already fearful that a nerf is incomming. So there is no doubt they would nerf the trait if SS stacked.

Alteraphim.4629:

coglin.1867:

Nubu.6148:

AA nerf is ok , i mean its only 200 toughness that means about 5% damage reduction .

That is not accurate in the least. When in gear with no toughness on it, it is very significantly higher damage reduction percentage.

Actually, I just calculated it out and it is an 8% increase in dmg taken if you wore no toughness gear at all. It’s higher than his estimation but not that much higher.

People equate it to the necro’s trait but we still have more base armor to work with as an “adventurer class”, making our trait inherently worth more (in terms of EHP added), although this is based off the assumption that you maintain 5 stacks (and it only amounts to about 5% increased reduction compared to necro).

Then by all means, post the equation you used to calculate it out. I am interested to see how you came to that number.