Guild Wars 2

T raw.4658:

They aren’t a zerg….they’re a guild group.

Zergs melt under condi pressure due to zero to very little organization. You could make the argument that power is horrible in ZvZ due to the shear amount of AoE healing.

It’s getting old reading people defend/justify the skilless gameplay that is condi in this game

First, what server are you on? My server has “zerg” coordination regardless. We have 80%-90% Team Speak participation at any given time.

Secondly, Define skill less game play, and how conditions are skill less? I often scratch my head trying to figure out what path of logic folks are using to suggest that hitting a button to launch an attack, landing the attack, then damage applies……….is any different between condition damage and direct damage.

Lucentfir.7430:

Like I said lets test it in Spvp to prove your point. You play a power bunker build with damage multipliers, and I’ll play my condition build with additional condition application. This is kind of like the thing that people say looks good on paper, but plays differently in-game. So i wanna test it against someone that knows how to play, a power bunker build. it’s pointless to try to point out things on the forums anyway.

I do. I play a power bunker engineer and a D/D power necro. Always makes for some interesting conversations against players with the mentality your displaying here. They are shocked and baffled by the out come. Even been accused of a random accusation of hacking after they learn of my builds.

Simply because your looking at it linearly, doesn’t mean the rest of us have to. Mean while others of us, use builds in unique ways, in which we incorporate the methods to strongly counter condition bunkers, for example.

Always find it funny when folks call condition spam as a bad thing, but spamming direct damage skills some how is magically different. Talk about a clear display of unreasonable bias.

So do you have any evidence that power bunkers do less damage? Or as was mentioned above, are we going on the " cause I said so " system some more?

Cygnus.6903:

Regarding engineer though, you have to differ between the condibunker/decap engie and the power engie. The first two are IMO quite easy to learn, a bit harder to master. you will start out rather weak, but when you learn the ropes just a little, you will be beating people that are essentially more skilled. After mastering it, you will be unstoppable, OP even.
Not so much for the Power engineer. Not being able to invest so much into defensive stats will make your engie go from unkillable to difficult to survive. I also feel that the power engie has to be very accurate, or you won’t do significant damage at all. Unlike thief for instance, who has the ability to keep up high burst at all time even if he misses a portion of it (disregarding survival, off course).

Couldn’t disagree more. All of the engineers ranked in the top 100 run power. As a power (soldiers) engineer who demolishes condi bunkers and CC locks the condi decaps, I think you have to get out of the limited grouping you have been playing with.

Part of the problem is this complete myth that professions like the engineer or necromancer are so strong with conditions and are lesser with power. yet in recent complaint threads about conditions, a vast many players posted video comparisons along side the math of damage comparison. Showing that in the case of the soldier geared necro, they will have the capability to deal out more damage and faster in soldiers gear. Similarly they have shown congruent results with the soldiers gear engineer. Just because the band wagoners adhere to what they read someone once, was OP, and flock to it, does not make it the best. Just because every body is doing it, doesn’t mean it is optimal, it simply means everyone herded like sheep to it.

The problem with that, is that it is waaaaay to much offensive capability on a defensive skill. This would be comparable to giving all shield skills the functionality of not only blocking damage, but also the ability to send equivalent damage right back at you. Both cases are over powered for defensive skills.

Sons.5493:

Being able to stack cc promotes poor game mechanics, zerging and makes the game unfun and undiverse.

So if you are going to make this claim, tell us this. Why is it that before they changed it to stack, that the forums had thread after thread demanding that it stacks??? Look it up, do some searching. It is a fact. You are literally claiming something is unwanted and broken, that the player base demanded for month after month.

When it stacks, 8 players can immobilize, cripple, and chill me. One skill will remove each and every one. With the old way, I would just cast one immobilize, or chill, or cripple, wait till you burnt your cleanse or soft cc remover, then use one again, and you had no options but to take it.

Sons.5493:

Killface.1896:

Dodge it bro and use PVP build,dont use some pve build with no stun breaker and QQ…..

See this is the kind of kittenty answers i meant on my P.D

Seems like kind of a harsh thing to say for someone who is going to sit here and demand something gets changed back to the way everyone hated and demanded it changed from. You have no business demandin only a constructive conversation, when you yourself are not constructive enough to be aware of why the system is in its current form.

Sigmoid.7082:

Until something is done about conditions i see nothing wrong with the rune at all. Besides people have to sack their sigils and runes in order to put out as much power damage as possible. Loss of a lot of potential due to 100% commitment.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with conditions.

I think these runes are strong, but as was mentioned, we have just now hit the two week mark. We probably wait a little while and see what else develops.

Yeah, I got a the same thing. Either way, what does linking a build have to do with anything? Wouldn’t someone have to play it as you want and with your level of skill, to even come close to getting your point? That seems a bit moot to me.

As for what should take priority, I sure as heck do not thing it should be PvP. I think at best, they should push the splitting of balance, and give them equal billing.

As well, it seems to me to be even more egotistical to tell us what we are or are not allowed to discuss here, and telling us the game mode that has the smallest player base by far, should take precedence over all other, does not help you there.

Anyway, asking other to play a build is no where near evidence. Evidence is, at least, comparing the damage out put of one build to another, or their defensive capabilities or making videos to display such things. Not links to Spanish oral exams.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Also, OP DID mention PvP if you didn’t notice, so the conversation was never changed. I just focued on what I view as the most salvageable game mode balance wise.

No one said he didn’t mention PvP. You simply told us that we were required to keep WvW out of the discussion. I can quote you if you forgot.

I never see this trait used in SD builds either.

HgH builds as mentioned, generally are x/6/x/6/x builds, with no 4 left over for the explosive line. I am going to assume 20=4. Someone forgot to use the converted numbers since the last patch.

There are plenty of build that do not us IP.

Absolutely if you do not have a problem with, why are you making repeated post here?. With all of the traits out there on every profession, on crit/hit % sigils, and on hit % chance runes, it sure seems particularly bias of you to single this trait out to crusade against.

I have to agree with Andy here. Out of all the skills, traits, runes, and sigils, that work off of procs, what makes this one “more” op then the rest ??

BurrTheKing.8571:

in TEAM FIGHTS. A Guardian can keep your team safe from Hammer using AoE Stability because the best skills are on longer CDs. There’s no build that can deal with unblockable AoE conditions that are reapplied constantly..

You mean like the Fumigate skill from engineer that clears up to 15 condition in a conal AoE that I use in zerg fights? Guardians save yourselves? Healing springs? Cleansing flames? I can list AoE cleanses for days.

BurrTheKing.8571:

What I don’t like is how you can remain tanky while still dishing out damage (see the build posted earlier). With Settler’s gear 2 out of the 3 stats are defensive, the only thing I’m losing out on is a few bleed stacks from crit that hardly affects me. While running DPS if I lack in either Power, Precision, or Ferocity I’m going to lose DPS in some way. My condi Warrior gives up much, much less than my DPS Axe Warrior if I want sustain.

I do not understand your point. I have yet to see you or anyone else here even come close to do showing in any way that condition builds out damage condition builds. Yet in the previous threads on this topic, evidence in forms of damage comparisons and videos show very much the opposite of your claims.

If you payed attention to any of the previous threads, one thing is very clear. Everyone is very aware that in team fights, that conditions are neutered to nothing. This is why they are generally considered next to useless in large fights in WvW. At least with players who display awareness.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Keep WvW out of this because it has no place in a balance discussion.

Ego trip much???

Sorry, but as it is already been mentioned. The OP specifically discusses WvW. The creater of the thread designates is topic. Not you.

BurrTheKing.8571:

To specialize so much requires sacrificing a lot of offensive power.

Exactly. This is the point exactly. You chose not to specialize away from heavy direct damage, then complain and that the disadvantage to your build should be specifically nerfed or that it is over powered after you chose not to counter it in your build.

He/she is trying to tell you your wrong when you claim the engineer has

sigh you can use kits, turrets, gadgets or other skills on your main weapon set, you know?

When it is a hard core fact that the engineer can neither use turrets or gadgets in place of their weapon swap/skills as your inaccurately claiming. Those are utilities that offer no weapon swap abilities in any way, and only offer damage, buff, or utilitarian benefits exactly as utility skills work for every other profession.

maeggle.6021:

So… if it is redundant, why leave it? Auto procs dumb down fights.

Wow, yet your perfectly fine with 1000 auto attacks that Are cleave on other professions in soldiers gear. But your completely against an engineer with a auto attack of 150 + 2s bleed for a total 400ish getting a trait designed to subsequent it’s damge? That sure seems biased.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

As i have said before. The damage the conditions do isn’t the problem. It is and always has been the NUMBER of conditions. Conditions shouldn’t be what decides a fight spamming everything you have over and over again until the target runs out of condition removals and dies.

So, what defines this as a problem? I mean, so far all you have done is state that it is one, but you offer no suggestions as to why it is a problem in any way,

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Unless you are built SPECIFICALLY to counter conditions you are going to have a hard time. This is taking runes, traits, sigils and everything else you can to counter them. However, you counter ONE build type but are weak to balanced builds, zerker builds and bunker builds (in that you wont kill them)

Umm, yeah. This is how the game is designs and built as its intended purpose. It is that whole rock, paper, scissor thing you hear about.

And If I want to deal with heavy CC builds, I can load up on stun breakers, negative stun duration food, and runes. Now I destroy CC builds, but are weak to damage builds of either kind.

See the pattern here?

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Rather than just nerf all conditions, all that needs to be done really, adjust the number of conditions these classes have. I mean look at Ele they have TWO damaging conditions. No matter the weapon, no matter the trait load out they have TWO.

This is brilliant in terms of build diversity. Let us force all professions to have the limitations of eles, but without diversity of attunements?

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

A staff Mesmer with 0/30/10/30 has access to – Bleeding, Blind, Burning, Chill, Confusion, Cripple, Poison, Torment, Vul and Weakness. Now while some of that is RNG based – Poison, Blind and Chill mostly they can EASILY stack the other conditions

This is the kind of thing i am talking about. That is just ONE weapon set. No runeset, no sigils or anything just ONE weapon set and trait load out.

So we need to rebuild and redefine the entire game around this build?

So as a player who plays a staff mesmer, I would love to see you total up for us how much damage this is. First off, none of those stack “easily”, secondly, none of theme are guaranteed to apply, as it is a random chance of application.

Swim.6830:

So a condition build that melts people as fast as a zerker, but with 2800 armor is balanced then… yeah that makes sense…

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQJASUnMdQnHW5BmCCdIGoKoQv4BwkittenrTfCddKA-TxBBABYp8DgnEgQ7PknumAukDVq+zZKBDAgAczbmNvZ28m38mH6QH6QH6Q7mD9mD9mDtUAMpMC-e

You mean like this one? 2800+ armor, 50+% crit chance. 22,400 hp, 1,000 AoE cleave damage auto attacks, that crit for over 2000 and do so over half the time.

Wearing the full zerker gear your specified. Oh, and by the way, almost completely immune to conditions in any form.

sinject.4607:

you’re beyond saving. you’re so convinced that you’re right about conditions being balanced and yet you’re never able to prove otherwise.

im seriously waiting for the post where you prove through any bit of logic that conditions are not overpowered.

Odd statements here. No one is presenting any intelligent argument that conditions are over powered. Almost all except a very select few simply make some random “boo, conditions are OP” and offer absolutely zero evidence as to how. As well , you haven’t offered any reasonable argument that I have seen, much less offered any actual facts.

shimmerless.4560:

If you really think it would ever be possible for a Mesmer to have 20 seconds where he couldn’t do significant damage, I’d be more than happy to set the record straight, love.

I was asking a specific poster some specific questions, about a very specific fight and situation that they laid out.

Sorry if that confused you. I thought the fact that I quoted them specifically, and directed my questions to that posters situation made it pretty clear. But if you can set the record straight and answer those questions for him, please do.

gartz.7013:

i like to think multiple posts of the same thing will get the devs the hint that we want a change

Who is we? What causes you to feel you speak for them? By what measurement do you gauge there is some majority on the measure?

ErazorZ.5209:

Arenanet should CONFIRM theyr working on countering terrible-condi spammers.

How can they do that? What is “spamming” by your definition? How do condition builds spam their skills and faster or slower then direct damage builds?

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

An example. I just fought a condition Mesmer. At one point i had 8 stacks of confusion, 3 stacks of Torment, Poison, Wekaness, 7 stacks of Bleeding, Vul and Cripple. This is what i am talking about. The attacks i was hit with: Blurred Frenzy, iDuelist, Confusing Images, and a few auto attacks (according to “battle log”)

This is an example of cheap Condition builds. They require SO little actual skill. You win not because you are good but because you can easily spam conditions.

Wat makes it cheap? How does it require little skill? Would you have had all of those conditions on you had you dodges, blocked, or interrupted any of the skills that applied those conditions?

Are you suggesting he button mashed and burnt all of his condition applying skills? If so, did you cleanse them and pound on him as you now had 8ish-20ish seconds before he could do any more significant damage? Did you lose the fight?

I feel you need to answer the legitimate question I am asking to add context and legitimize your complaint. Otherwise your just blurting out random. broad complaints. Not to mention everything Drarnor Kunoram mentioned about how you causes some of it to yourself with your poor actions in play.

Pistols do really bad damage. Unfortunately the devs actually feel they have to do bad damage to compensate for our 1s weapon swap on kits. It really appears from the dev statements on the subject, that they want you to use at least one kit. I do not like their philosophy on this matter, but it is an unfortunate philosophy they have.

Personally I am a big fan of the bomb kit, have been since release. I never really could band wagon on the grenades like so many others. As well, although they destroyed my favorite trait (kit refinement), once they made the EG tool belt skill a stun breaker, it became a staple of almost every build I use. I am just addicted to having a stun breaker with an AoE heal, acid bomb for the damage and ability to leap out of a sticky spot, as well as the heal/cleanse of super elixir.

As you mention casual PvE, I suggest bombs or grenade, or both.

Which attack was it? Before we make too many assumptioms, some more information is needed. Some skills are made to be Unblockable by design. If it was one of those, then it was simply a counter to your action.

You probably lose most readers the second you open with things like “spam” and misrepresent it as if it is some how magically unique to conditions. If your not capable of leaving out issues that effect direct damage and condition damage equally, then you either are not familiar enough with game mechanics to be making such claims, or you are displaying a heavy and unreasonable bias.

sinject.4607:

let me hold your hand through this:
conditions can be applied through aoe spam, autoattack procs, low cast time/cooldown/broadcast skills, rune procs, and more.

Again, you act as if this is unique to them through dishonest misrepresentation. So what if they can be AoE applied. So can Direct damage. Every profession has an AoE spam direct damage cleave that does more damage then AoE condi attacks.. The list of AoE stuns, blow outs, knock downs, and knock backs in very long.

Every thing you mention here is based on fallacy and you go out of your way to avoid listing specifics, comparisons, and facts. You speak of Low cast times as if that is some mystical unique feature of condition attacks. List me some, and I will list a direct damage attack with the same or faster cast time for each one you list. Broadcast of skills? List the ones flawed that represent your argument. If you think this is an issue specific to condition damage skils, then you are poorly mistaken. Rune procs? Really? We have 66 rune sets in this game. 26 of those effect direct damage or stuns. Only 12 of those effect condition damage in any way. The rest offer boons, buffs or an axillary benefit. As for sigils, 31 effect direct damage, while only 18 effect condition damage or add a condition.

So it is very very clear you are just blurting out your opinion as you perceive it, as if it represented some semblance of fact, rather then checking into it and actually knowing.

sinject.4607:

this overwhelming access to various forms of rapid application of not only damage but also control such as cripple, chill, and immobilzation leads to an absurd level of pressure both at distance and in close quarters that direct damage could never maintain.

So you okay with rapd use of skills that apply direct damage, when we know they do more damage then condi damage skill, and your okay with AoE stuns of all kinds on low cool down, but with Soft CC you not okay. That doesn’t strike me as a balanced thought process.

sinject.4607:

if you’re seriously trying to say that direct damage is equally unavoidable then you’re absolutely full of it. much more of the highly damaging skills that direct damage relies on are very visible and non-spammable to the point where evading them is actually possible. distance alone can protect you often enough.

You are just being dishonest here. We already used the wiki in a recent thread and listed the total number of direct damage skills in the entire game compared to the condition damage skill. There were 30%+ more direct damage skills with a 1/4 sec cast time less then the condition damage ones.

Perhaps you should actually use the wiki and a calculator once and a while before you post.

sinject.4607:

aside from giver’s weapons, you can’t invest in condition duration through gear. it’s impossible. you do this through food, upgrades, and traits/traitlines. all three of which do not require much, if any, specialized tradeoff in most cases; condition duration food increases condi damage as well as do most duration rune sets.

Really? so, Rune of Lyssa, Rune of the Mad King, Rune of the Lich, Rune of the Nightmare, Rune of the Traveler do not offer condition duration now?

sinject.4607:

also, comparing condition reapplication to direct damage like that is comparing apples to oranges. i shouldn’t need explain why.

How so? care to elaborate? Yes, you should need to explain why, because I doubt you know.

Both are attacks that do damage. A attack that does 4s bleed at 1800ish condition damage will do 500ish damage. A direct damage attack that hits for 500 direct damage instantly. In both cases similar damage is applied.

No more damage will be applied either way, untill you swing and connect a hit again, regardless of damage type

Ignore that fact all you like, it doesn’t make it less true.

sinject.4607:

how do you possibly take into account hitting multiple targets once as the same as hitting one?

it is called an AoE. It allows me to kill multiple players of your caliber at the same time. To assist in your understanding, here is a wiki link. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/AoE

sinject.4607:

it seems your whole plan here is to try to discredit my arguments by throwing around your own poorly thought out dribble and acting like it’s indisputable.

Not really. You kind of took care of that all on your own, by making inaccurate claims that a simple count on the wiki disproved, such as your uninformed statements about runes, or sigils.

What i do not understand is how the OP is to be taken seriously by claiming a profession is over powered, then going on to state he has no specific reason for even saying so.

DeWolfe.2174:

coglin.1867:

I am going to quote you on this matter from another thread of this identical content.

Because I’m not the one denying an imbalance exists unless people start posting specific and detailed builds! GG read more as threads were merged. Obviously the context is disjointed now.

Your right, you are not denying it, your just making uneducated statements that it is. If you spent any time educating yourself or sharing your facts from doing so, you would not be so easily dismissed. Many of us on the other hand, already have. As well us many many videos, and damage comparisons. Part of the problem is that every Johnny come lately thinks they are so special that they need to make their own topic on this subject, instead of keeping to one or two. This buries useful information. To make it worse, posters like yourself prefere to blindly claim the do not exist rather then take a few seconds to look for them. Multiple posters have posted builds and video in threads in the last 3 weeks.

The problem isn’t so much that you make your claim with no evidence after chiding others for doing so, it is that you never even tested it on multiple professions to even know.

All I can say is

What did you post to “prove” your point? You simply gave an unsubstantiated opinion. So please do continue trying to defend your point of view without justification as well.

I am not following you here. In one paragraph your stating you do not play a necromancer, then in another paragraph you presume to tell us how the play is effected with a trait on a necromancer. What makes you such an expert that you can tell us how a profession you never played feels and use that as an argument to change another trait on an entirely different profession?

Prove it. You keep suggesting the race favors conditions, then give some side ways suggestion and state something completely irrelevant. I mean come on, you could at list make up an off the wall anecdotal example or some thing. As of now, you haven’t chosen a single logic path that didn’t apply to direct damage builds as much as it applies to condition builds.

Auza.4253:

Condition damage and pet damage are both zero skill cap. You set it and forget it, generally hit tab from ranged to apply skill or direct pets, and you can spend the rest of your uptime running/dodging/kiting/doing whatever.

Please oh wise sage, explain to us how and why a skill happens to be easier to land simply because it applies a condition??? If I swing a hammer and one skill applies 500 direct damage instantly and the next skill on the hammer is on the same cool down and applies 4 bleeds at 125 a tick per second. Taking a total of 4 second to apply the same damage, on equally dodgable attacks, in what warped world do you live in, that the second skill offer you the ability to do all of those fine things you listed. if 500 direct damage will not kill a target instantly, what makes you think a skill doing the exact same damage for 4s will? Apparently you think it magically kills them giving you time to do all of the other stuff you mentioned.

Auza.4253:

“all you need to do is close your eyes and swing your weapon away”

Does this person even play Guild Wars 2? I’m flabbergasted at comments like this and really the comment should, if anything, read ‘all you need to do is close your eyes, hit tab, and roll your face across the keyboard to apply ranged conditions.’

Really? Isn’t this essentially exactly what you are suggesting about condition damage? Who ever said this is making a bit more sense then what you said if you ask me.

Auza.4253:

I would also like to add that everyone who says “There are ways to cure conditions” needs to think that through for another two seconds and admit that those abilities are generally on 45-60 second cooldowns, whereas all condition applying abilities are on an average 12 second cooldown. Now add to that two enemies hitting you with conditions and you are cannot ever keep enough of the poison, bleed, burning, confusion, or torment off your character.

Well first off, almost every profession has a trait or passive skill that removes or converts a condition every 10s. So your 60s theory is a little off. Secondly, perhaps you should think yourself. I am certain you do not even know how much condition damage a given profession can do compared to its DD out put. So why is it okay to be able to spam the direct damage attacks that do their damage instantly, but you think players need to be able to negate condition damage all the time, when it is the same damage out put per skill, only requiring more time for the damage to apply from said single skill.

Auza.4253:

Damage over time is simply not an interesting or rewarding game mechanic when it comes to skillful play. It hasn’t been, isn’t now, nor ever will be. It belongs, if anywhere, in PvE to allow kiting of mobs for small groups or solo players to kill elites, etc. I do exactly this on my Thief using shortbow bleeds. I do not find it interesting in PvE either, but it seems to be popular as game designers keep implementing it.

Certainly. As you are such an influential person in the world, I am sure it is quot reasonable to assume an entire 1/2 of the games damage mechanic will be removed in the next update at your mere whim. I bet that is exactly what Arena net is thinking right now. That this is such a complicated mechanic that its mathematics and function are too complicated for Auza, there for we better rebuild the entire game around his opinion based on a troubled understanding, before we anger the gods.

Dee Jay.2460:

In PvP however, ease of application, availability of counters, telegraphs, being able to kite while still dealing damage, the fact that conditions help cover each other etc. are all far more problematic than the numbers themselves.

It’s not about how much DPS you deal with conditions, it’s how easy it is to do with with little/no trade-offs that’s the problem.

Actually, it is about how people have no clue what what ease of application is. Every time a DD attack hits you it applies its damage, and does so instantly. So in what mythical world is it easier to land condition attacks all of the sudden???

Warrior hammer offers 6 skills. But your claiming “fierce blow” and “hammer shock” or both easier to apply the damage with because one has weakness and the other has cripple on it??? Thus they are fundamentally different because you make this mind baffling claim that a skill with conditions on it is unreasonable easier to connect with.

You really need to break this down and explain how skills with conditions hit a target easier then skills without. The science behind your assessment must be fascinating.

As I see it, the guardian, is in my opinion, is the most solid and well rounded professions.
The Engineer is a close second. Then of coarse we have the OP warrior. The rest of them are up for debate.

DeWolfe.2174:

What builds did you post to “prove” your point? You simply gave an unsubstantiated opinion. So please do continue trying to defend your point of view without justification as well.

Wait, what? Isn’t that exactly what you did here.

DeWolfe.2174:

Snip of unsubstantiated claims.

in this thread

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Condition-is-out-of-control/3873585/quote

DeWolfe.2174:

To me, conditions should have stayed in the realm of debuff’s and the big word “control”. As soon as the dev’s ventured deeply into conditions as another form of damage, they created an imbalance. We should have a passive form of reduction just as our armor does for power damage. Dire stats are WAY more powerful than PTV gear as well. Showing the imbalances between power vs. condition damage.

I am going to quote you on this matter from another thread of this identical content.

DeWolfe.2174:

What did you post to “prove” your point? You simply gave an unsubstantiated opinion. So please do continue trying to defend your point of view without justification as well.

Every thing you say here defies logic. Pretty much every excuse you listed applies to direct damage.

• condition application is often passive/hard to avoid/poorly broadcasted

Got any reasonable examples? For every condi applying skill you claim is poorly broadcast, I can probably give you two direct damage attacks that are as poorly broadcast……If we take your justification for classifying OPness, the direct damage attacks need to be nerfed, cause they are OP

As far as “passive” application? Really? List one example? I am guessing you are not aware of what passive means. You have to use the exact same action to apply a condition, as you do direct damage. If your still confused, that means you have to press a key, Your character has to take the action said key represents. Your character has to land said action.

sinject.4607:

• conditions can be reapplied far too quickly

condition builds only truly require one offensive stat investment, two to maximize damage output. necro for example takes advantage of this by being able to take rabid gear without much loss due to their disgustingly high base hp + additional hp bar.[/quote]
The cry cry cry, wipe my tears and type “one stat” whah whah whah, argument about condition damage is played out bud. Given the fact that you can literally double a condition attack by investing in Condi duration to 100% just proves how illogical and irrational the one stat claim is. Yet you don’t even mention this stat. Odd, you seem so versed in the mechanics that you can tell us what benefit the damage type, yet you fail to mention the stat that increases it so heavily. What does that say about your knowledge on the subject?

As far as the “reapplication” angle, the logic isn’t there. Of course someone can hit you with a skill that applies a condition again. Expecting otherwise is as irrational as complaining that your enemy in a direct damage build just hit you after you blocked him previously. I mean how dare a player do damage after you negated their previous damage right??? How any sane person rationalizes, that it is okay for one damage type to move forward with applying damage to you, and another one is OP for it is just unbelievable. What does that say about your rational on the matter?

sinject.4607:

• condition duration food is far more effective than physical damage food.

How so? Based on your previous examples, I would venture to guess you do not even know. This is untrue, because of how it functions. Take engineers explosive shot for example. It is a 2s bleed. You need to hit 50% to effect the skill AT ALL. Thus the 40% food literally increases the damage by 0. If a skill adds a 4s bleed, the food you mention only adds 1s of bleed. That is a 25% increase, not 40%.

So if it is more effective, where is your math on that? Where is a skill comparison of some direct damage skills and the percentage foods that benefit them, increase their damage? I am going to assume you do not know. I doubt you even did rough math to figure it up in your own head. Based on your previous straw man arguments, it is already pretty clear you will make uneducated claims. Why don’t you actually test it or figure it up and educate yourself. You will probably enjoy they game more once you understand it.

sinject.4607:

• burning does too much damage

In what context? At 2200 added condi damage it is only around 850. How do you come to the conclusion that this is too much when I can wear full soldiers gear on my thief and hit for thousands? Heck my engineer basic bomb auto attack hits 5 people in an AoE for 1500+ a piece in soldiers, against 3200 defense. That is 7500 damage with the exact same defense as your beloved “dire” gear.

sinject.4607:

• etc.

And here we get to the most intelligent part of your argument.

I like the game. Last thing I want to see, is a bunch of pointless critters that folks sit on, ruining frame rates by forcing the system to process unnecessary graphics.

Rezzet.3614:

because of how conditions work they only have condition damage as modifier so you get ultimate survivability while maximizing your damage simply by using Dire gear

It appears you are unfamiliar with how conditions work

Obviously you need the condition damage stat

There are many traits that proc on crits only, causing a valued need for precision

It is a cast iron fact that condition duration is literally 50% of condition damage out put. If you claim otherwise you are plain and simply dead wrong.

If you are not hitting 100% condition duration, it is a mathematical fact that you are not maximizing your condition damage.

xsquared.1926:

The real issue with conditions is that most of them barely have any tells, and that some of them are instacast, ranged and not counted as a projectile (I’m looking at you, necro scepter.)

I love how almost everyone who wants to make a statement against conditions makes such broad and random statements, never offering specifics. It is as if your not even sure of what you are saying yourself. You just regurgitate the same random thought every other poster has made on the subject.

So what skills do not have tells? What makes you think that for every condition damage skill you claim doesn’t have a tell, that someone else will list two direct damage skills without one.

I mean if players used the rational to argue for nerfs to direct damage that some of you argue as reasons for condition damage, do you think you would stand a chance? I bet you do not even know, because you do not know the facts either way, because you just randomly pop in and repeat something you read somewhere, or apparently just make it up all together, as long as it supports your goal.

Rezzet.3614:

this is my point a team should be able to cc a single player or another group if coordinated wht makes people rage on hammer warriors is that Each warrior has an aoe stun an aoe knock and an aoe launch so thats 2-3s of doing nothing per warrior spamming or necros with their super fears gotta love when you get slapped with a minute long fear

Ahh, got ya.

We have an easy hard counter to this. We say pop stabs (cast Stabilities) when we see a hammer crew incoming. It isn’t that difficult. We will also have an engineer or two drop smoke bombs in front for AoE pulsing blinds, then they step back behind the tank line and use fumigate for the AoE cleanses.

To me, for CC to be an issue at all, you were either careless and put yourself in a bad situation, very poor game play, or even poorer coordination. As I see it, I cannot even comprehend how anyone could think it is a game mechanic issue.

That is a horrible and unfair punishment. Why should the second attacker be punished and have diminishing returns to his attacks, simply because someone else already hit his target?

Why shouldn’t a group of 3 or 4 overwhelm a single target? It if fully reasonable in all aspects that they should cc him, condition him, and direct damage him in a brutal pummeling. It is a 4v1 for goodness sake.

Link us that build in a build editor.

Just sayin, but broken builds exist and need fixed, but in no situation do those build e even begin to represent an entire damage type.

Defend them in what respect? They are fine, and there is nothing to defend. What you appear to confuse as defending, is probably when poster rage with misinformation or a lack of understandind. Often they prefer to be mad and make irrational demand over the option of understanding and enlightenment. We are simply working to educate those poor guys, and guide them to the path of enlightened understanding.

Speaking of misinformed, would you like me to link you to all of the condition nerf updates? Including the nerf to some poison attacks slated for the next updated. Or do you simply prefer that we let you believe the misinformation you do now ?

Swagg.9236:

coglin.1867:

Let me ask you this swagg. Your proposing changes to 7/8 professions with signets right? This would then change the level of balance in those 7 compared to the eighth. What positive changes are you proposing for that 8th profession?

“I want Engineer to have passives too. More passives.”

This is awful. That said, because I knew that someone would bring it up, the Gadgeteer trait could be reworked into providing similar bonuses to Gadget skills instead of “PRESS BUTTON, RECEIVE BOON.”

You are apparently attempting to be rude and inflammatory here. Not only did I not mention anything about “Passives”, if you read any previous post on the topic, I am very clear that I dislike passive aspects in this game designed to be active and reactive. Your attempt at mocking with the parenthesis to suggest I am saying something I am not is your awful idea, not mine. That was all very constructive of you, thanks.

Question 1),…..Why do you assume gadgets are congruent to signets?

Question 2),……If you knew someone would bring up the left out profession, why did you leave it out?

Let me ask you this swagg. Your proposing changes to 7/8 professions with signets right? This would then change the level of balance in those 7 compared to the eighth. What positive changes are you proposing for that 8th profession?

Gorni.1764:

Funny how classes like ele have to revolve every build around condition-removal just to survive. That’s not how a game should be.

They don’t. Not in my experience. Although they to tend to have traits that work against conditions in support build. Support builds for eles are also very common in my experience. How long have you played an ele? I ask because it appears as if you are commenting on a partial comment by another who plays one, while having no experience yourself, which is a very uninformed way to come to discissions of this nature. I could be wrong though. Correct me if I am.

Gorni.1764:

I’d propose to tone down conditions in general as well as condition-cleansing. This way there wouldn’t be such a strong need for those heavy condi-cleanse orientated builds but conditions would still be viable.

My experience tells me that in WvW, and skilled PvP teams that there are way more direct damage builds then condition ones. If you look at the top 10 PvP teams, 8 of them only have 2 condi built professions and 2 of them have 3. So out of the 50 players on the top 10 ranked teams in PvP, you have 20 condition builds. If conditions are so strong, why are only 40% at most, in the top teams using conditions, while 60% use direct damage??

In WvW condition builds are almost nonexistent in Zergs They are fairly balanced against condition removal in 5 man teams, and only most powerful in roaming 1v1. So when looking at the number of player on a map, if you have an 80 man zerg where conditions are almost valueless, three groups of 5 in which they are fairly balanced against cleanses, and 15 roamers (which is a very healthy over estimate), lets look at how that lays out per player.

80+% of the players are direct damage, because if they are condi builds in a zerg battle, almost all of thier damage are fully negated. 15ish% are reasonably balanced, while another 15% are in favorable situations, or as most uninformed condi haters call it, OP situation.

Why should we balance conditions to the minorty? the example I game is very realistic, and mean about 30% at best? All your suggestion does is make condition builds even less valuable to the other 80%.

No. Diminishing returns is a horrible idea in my opinion. Players already hate passive things such as diamond skin and automated response. This game is designed around action and reaction. Making the game design inherently passive will harm the game as a whole as I see it, and damage the need for action or reaction in battle.

If 5 players spend their CCs on me, why should some of their skills be diminished for it? Why should we limit build build diversity because you dislike the effect 5 players have on you attacking you as one player? I mean isn’t it logically intended that when the enemies group aims all of their focus on you, that it should most defiantly be annoying and bothersome?

All your aiming to do is discuss rebuilding the game to make it less inconvenient when multiple aggressors attack you or the small patch of ground you are on. Personally, I feel this is very poorly thought out, and will make suffer when on the offensive, and make all of those on the defensive more powerful.

The end result is, a few weeks after the changes you propose were introduced, you or others will be back here spamming the forums with complaints to buff all of the things you list, because now when they invest in CC skill, their builds are negated by your proposed game mechanics.

Dee Jay.2460:

1. You’re right about the food. +40% duration on all conditions is ridiculously overpowered. Make people chose what type of condition they want to focus on.

Okay, Your making the claim it is OP, Well how so? You mention engineer. Would you Agree that P/S is a popular weapon set for engineers? Let what this OP food ads to the known condition weapon set.

Explosive shot – 2s bleed X 40% duration gives you a 2s bleed
Poison dart volley – 2s poison X 40% duration gives you a 2s poison.
Static shot – 2stacks of confusion for 3s X 40% durations adds 1s for 4s of confusions.
Magnetic shield – knock back, no condition
Static shield – Stun 2s X40% duration gives you a 2s stun.

So for what my experience tells me is the most common weapon set for the engineer literally gets ZERO damage out of this food directly.

Dee Jay.2460:

2. Countering conditions is mostly down to traits and class mechanics, not active play. Unlike direct damage dodging and active combat won’t help you much against conditions. How well you deal with them is almost entirely down to your build. There is no active mitigation.

This is about as misinformed as it gets. Your telling us if you dodge out the an engineers fire bomb that does 2s of 750 burning, that you did not just dodge 1500 damage? It is another 10s before that skill can be used again. You do not have a single fact to support this completely illogical claim. To claim dodging doesn’t mitigate condition damage is just plain irrational.

Condition removal is skill you have to activate. So we now know dodges, blocks, condition cleanses, all have to be activated. There are 57 condition removals that must be actively activated. Direct damages main counter is toughness. Talk about lack of active play to mitigate damage.

Dee Jay.2460:

3. Most condition dumps are very poorly telegraphed. A single Engineer auto-attack can apply 5 different conditions at times. Signet of Spite has a barely visible animation and no projectile you could actively dodge.

You want to mention engineer, Your suggesting that its harder hiring attacks do not have a telegraph. Now your being intentional obtuse, or intentional forgetful. Bombs and grenades are the professions main condition appliers. Bombs have a 1/2s cast time and a 1 1/2 s fuse time. That is a solid 2s telegraph. Grenades have a 1/2s cast time and a 1.75s time from the throwing animation until they reach impact at its max range. Giving a 2.25s telegraph.

Signet of spite does not represent all condition damage across all professions. I can list you more skills with knockbacks, stuns, knock downs, blow outs, daze, and stun with as bad telegraphs. To sit here and claim only condition skills have specific attacks with poor telegraph is very poorly thought out and a display of extreme cherry picking.

Dee Jay.2460:

4. Lack of trade-offs: Condition builds allow you to stack insane survivability and avoidance with high damage. It’s not a very compelling play-style and rarely involves acting or reacting to your enemies moves.

This claim is tossed around by folks making claims time after time. Prove it. I have yet to see a damage comparison of a condition hater to a direct damage of equal defense across 3 levels of gear that displays this. Yet we have damage comparisons from posters such as myself and GuanglaiKangyi that show otherwise.

Dee Jay.2460:

In general the condition play-style goes entirely against the whole “active combat” ideal ANet established for Guild Wars 2.

As it is a fact that Dodges and blocks both negate direct damage and condition damage equally, and there 57 skills that must be activated to mitigate condition damage, and only 15 activate able skills that mitigate direct damage. It is a fact that condition damage has 73% more active skills available to mitigate its damage then direct damage.

killahmayne.9518:

You always talk about facts, facts, facts, yet you offer none of your own. It is pretty funny actually. You supply nothing and admonish people for not doing the same thing and your whole basis for conditions being balanced is conditions > direct damage and soldier > dire. Hilarious. You talk about where are my facts for Conditions needing tweaking, where are yours? I just stated the reality, did you not read my two posts or are you are too blind to see?

You mean like the fact that we have 13 conditions. The fact that 8 of those conditions do not actively do any damage what so ever. The fact those facts display is that 87.5 of the conditions available offer literally Zero inherent damage? Or the fact that (4 threads ago on this topic) a poster made 4 damage comparison videos of necro specific damage comparisons that you refuse to search out yourself?

Swagg.9236:

Renny.6571:

Combo breaker!

Very good. Enjoy your assured +1s. We can’t be creative enough to imagine anything other than the horrific status quo ANet has created for GW2 which is sustained by complacent, spoiled players. Might as well just make silly posts when confronted by scary ideas.

What makes it Horrific? Personally I feel they have done a fantastic job. I thoroughly enjoy the game every time I play. Every financial report from NCsoft of every quarter since the game released shows them surpassing profit projections for this game on a consistent bases. That to me is very solid evidence that it leans more toward flourishing and fun, not “horrific” as you claim.

Why do you assume everyone wants signets completely reworked by the way?

killahmayne.9518:

Which actually isn’t true, and even if it was there would be just as many people that admit to packing a whole lot of condition removal and still realize that conditions need tweaking, changes and overhauling. And people admitting to not having condition counters is also within the context of class balance issues.

Actually it is true. go look at the last 5 threads on the topic. What makes it funny is you do not even know. You literally just posted it was untrue without even checking (got to love posters who make random guesses and pretend it is fact)

What facts or evidence are you using to suggest conditions need “tweaking”???

killahmayne.9518:

It isn’t just people that don’t pack condition removal that are suggesting changes to conditions. Do you deny that? If not then it is an ignorant statement/assumption to make plain and simple.

You sure appear to be trying to use a hateful tone in your comments. That suggest you are aware your supplying no evidence for your claims and question it if you ask me. But yeah when 3,000,000 people have this game and the same 25 keep making threads and posting them over and over, I tend to go with the other 2,999,975 who either are not complaining about or who are disagreeing with you.

killahmayne.9518:

But hey I guess we are all naive according to you and we all make threads along the lines of “I got 1,900 armor and I got backstabbed for 12K by a Thief Nerf Thieves now”. Maybe out of all of these threads and posts somebody actually has a point? All of us can’t be stupid can we? God forbid maybe there is actually a legitmate reason and good points to back it up gasp.

When it is the same very small handful of people posting or making the condi complain threads over and over, and everyone (including you) offer no actual facts, evidence or comparative information to support it. It is cute though, how you try to imply others are calling anyone “stupid” or “naive”. Now that you mention though, Yeah it may be a bit naive to regurgitate a small and select few complaints repeatedly and offer no actual facts or comparisons, while ignoring video comparisons and damage comparisons to the contrary.

killahmayne.9518:

To suggest that people complaining about conditions pack no condition removal whatsoever is a very ignorant statement and is far from the truth. And I think it is quite the opposite in terms of somebody mentioning math between dire vs soldier.

Actually they very regularly admit to not having condition counters in almost all of the “nerf conditions” threads. So I hardly believe it is ignorant in the least, when they are pointing it out themselves.

Nice try though.

I do not see a problem with either skill personally. They require the resource of taking up a utility slot, which are obviously limited. They are both reactive skills that require activation in the situation that a player feels they will be the most helpful, and they have long enough cool downs. Sure, they can seem over powered when combined with other things such as healing signet, cleansing ire, or other traits, but as I see it, that is a problem with those skills or traits, and not Endure Pain or Berserker Stance

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Ignoring the Burning? The Bleeding? The Poison up time is VERY annoying as well. Scepter/Focus offers – Bleeding(2×4seconds) and Poison(4seconds) on Auto attack every 1.5seconds. Cripple(5seconds) and Bleeding(2 stacks 7 seconds) every 10 seconds. 12stacks of Vul every 18 seconds Though the regen helps them as well and Chill + Boon removal every 20 seconds. This is based ONLY on the skills. No traits. No added stats.

Then add in another weapon set. 6 condition application on a 60second cool down among other skills and you can see why Condition Necro is very strong. Fast easy to apply and spammable conditions. Poison should NOT be on an auto attack chain that takes 1.5seconds to complete and lasts for 4 seconds with no duration food or anything. Then you have The Bleeding, Chill, Torment, Immbolize and Fear from the DeathShroud skills as well.

How does a specific necro build represent condition damage as a whole?

If you have a problem with a specific necro build, make a thread about it. This extreme example principle you have developed, will benefit no one. Why should ele conditions be nerfed because you have a personal problem with a certain, specific combination of necro skills? Why should mesmer conditions be nerfed because you have a personal problem with a certain, specific combination of necro skills? Why should engineer conditions be nerfed because you have a personal problem with a certain, specific combination of necro skills? Why should ranger conditions be nerfed because you have a personal problem with a certain, specific combination of necro skills? Why should warrior conditions be nerfed because you have a personal problem with a certain, specific combination of necro skills? Why should thief conditions be nerfed because you have a personal problem with a certain, specific combination of necro skills?

My point is, you cannot list a very specific build or or skill combination, and present it as if it were an accurate representation of an entire damage type across all the profession. Personally, I agree that debuffs such as poison (debuffing heals), vulnerability (debuffing defense), or weakness (debuffing endurance and damage) should not be on auto attacks. In my personal opinion, those are the 3 that should never be on auto attacks.

Harper.4173:

You’re back.

Again you demand evidence of people.
Again you fail to post any relevant data and just expect people to believe you because you know you’re right.

Why are you even trying?

Post relevant data/ comparisons that you’ve mentioned in almost every thread ( yet I have yet to find even though I’ve been actively searching) or give it a rest. Your credibility is around 0 right about now.

Aww, look, I have a fan. PM me for the autographed glossy you were previously asking me about.

You mean the previous necro videos another posted made just for you in a previous thread don’t exist to you? that is interesting.

What evidence or damage comparison did you post again? Please remind me. What build would you like a comparison of? Personally, of all the professions, my favorite is an engineer bomb build. Would you like me to compare those for you? If your so certain about your claims (and as you guys keep making claims firsts) isn’t the burden of proof a bit on you? What does your personal test state is the maximum damage out put a bomb engineer can do in dire gear? What do your personal test show it doing in Soldiers?

I may be wrong, but it seems to me, that during your post here, that in your run down you are showing bias against condition damage. I say this because you talk about players needing to use 2 or even 3 stun breakers when you refer to players favoring CC set ups for direct damage attacks.

As you feel the “meta” has changed to conditions, why wouldn’t you offer the suggestion to stacking condition removal in the same manner?

As I see it, the problem with most of the threads on the forums falls into 4 issues. One is that when you read them, most of the time those complaining heavily about conditions go into explanation that are inaccurate and they often appear to be ignorant as to how many of them actually work. The second problem they often display is that they do not build to counter conditions at all and complain that the game should be changed to compliment their current build. Which seems extremely self centered to me. The 3rd issue is that posters have a horrible habit of complaining based on how things feel to them, and not how things actually are. Then make demands based on uninformed perception. The 4th problem is they come and complain about a specific build and make uninformed accusations about, when they do not even know how said build works. Worse then that, it is often simply a build that counters their own, or one they have no counters instituted for in their own build.

I can agree with a fair portion of what your getting at TyPin, and some of it I disagree with. Honestly though, in the end, all your two post appear to be is a smoke screen for you to try to push your agenda of a nerf to food types, when you do not even explain how the specific foods you want nerfed are a problem. The fact of the matter is, those foods are needed to allow condition damage to compete with direct damage. It is not the foods fault that players will build with direct damage in mind and not build to counter the builds they are complaining about that involve conditions.

In reference to your indicator, why do we need an indicator? That seems like an inherent unfair disadvantage to condition damage users. We do not get advanced warning of how much damage that a direct damage attack is about to do to us. Isn’t it more reasonable to let players learn the mechanics of it, or die? They need to learn. I can see where your going with this idea, and I almost want to support it. I just cannot get past the idea of adding passive indicators to hold the hands of players who refuse to adjust, learn the game, and change their old habits to adopt to it.

I can agree in reference to PvE only.

I cannot agree in sPvP or WvW though. I find it hard to justify making players skills and functions diminish or be negated by immunity as a over all game mechanic.

It is much more reasonable to stop immobilize from stacking. You should not be able to be immobilized until the one on you currently wears off or is broken. The same would be acceptable for knock backs and other similar stuns too. So you cannot be shot around like a football. You could simply be unaffected until you either stun break and are back on your feet or the one currently effecting you wears off.

The other suggestion for diminishing returns and immunity doesn’t do anything other then cause more problems by making skills lose their value or negate their value on a passive basis. The passive basis is a horrible game mechanic in my eyes. Just like stone skin and Automated response (and that is saying a lot as engineer is my preferred profession and ele is my 3rd in line)……….This is a game designed to be about movement and reaction in battle, and as I see it, anything that is passive and not reactive is counter intuitive to game design and promoted lazy game play.