Okay, seems like the consensus is that people want this epic feeling of slaughtering trash mobs. We’re heroes after all.
Haviz:
proof your right and its not a challenge or your argument got no marits.as for the challenge of trash mobs.
what you are asking is for each encounter to be hard by simply stacking harder mobs on top of each other without trash.
by this logic one of the best dungeons you could run is a dungeon with 10 lupies one after another each in their own room that closes off when you enter and if you fail any of them you will need to redo ALL of them.
there will ofcouse not be any ability to exploit or bug abuse these 10 lupi’s.
I’d like to but whenever I say something to you I get infractions. May I at least move your attention to spell checker, it should make your posts in future a bit more readable.
About 10 lupis, that would be actually my dream! And while we’re at it, please increase difficulty of at least phase 1. Lupi should spawn grubs on all players and stun them for 5-10s. And what’s this exploit/bug you’re keep saying (advice: don’t post it, just pm me)?
1: need to feel intimidating
this is done by him being +- alone or with very few elite guards. it makes him seem special, if you run into a big room and all there is in a room is a little girl standing in the middle, you get intimidated due to what you espect her to be since she deserves such a big room all by herself.
If every boss were like that, it would be a bit too cliché.
2: need to feel EPICLY strong.
it needs to feel like its a BOSS like its kittening evil and hard.
Agree! More lupis/simin. More tears on forums.
The only good enough build for every elementalist out there. Get as much as cleric’s and soldier’s pieces and runes with boon durations. Traits are 0/10/0/30/30. Don’t even try other set ups. You gonna die from a sneeze.
http://www.intothemists.com/calc/?build=-k33;0J0BJ-V015wM-Z0;9;59-TT;10;328A45A6o0;0R;0qNnCrgk16Na
why doesnt it suprice me that its the famous “dungeons are no challenge” dude thats comming with that statement :P
Oops, you got me here, red-handed ;<
Well i need to do arah path 3 and 4 also. I have been waiting for my guild to want to do it with me but it seems that they have all gotten bored and are playing other games now. I am reluctant to find a pug group to do it in case they are elitists or something. I just want to do the paths normally with no exploit and no people moaning at me that i made a mistake. I am in eu servers.
Whisper me if you’re brave enough! (that means no ranged weapons in your inventory). But not for path 4, grenth’s priest is too deadly for my psyche.
People have just been trained to run past everything in dungeons by the horrendous loot tables and gigantic health bars, and don’t stop to consider the efficiency of their play when doing fractals – unless you’re already swimming in cash, you should be murdering those veterans on sight.
Especially when most profit in fractals comes from loot of mobs .
Why does everyone say that healing power is bad for Elementalist?
Geyser – 0.25, Water blast – 0.1, Glyph of Elemental Harmony – 0.75
You simply forgot the % added to your crit damage. That little XX% before the precision in those berserk builds. If you have high critical chance when you do a critical you got a good increase in your damage, so NEVER a MF build will do DPS similar to a zerk build.
And like most said, PVT combo with consumibles = high DPS… MF don´t have a DPS consumible to combo.
I was comparing MF to PVT, not to zerker. So I didn’t forgot about anything
And like I’ve said, your consumable combo with PVT is worse than simple potions that work with every set.
- not all phases, phase 1 I melee and take locust swarms off weaker players and melee grubs down. On phase 3 I keep Lupi bussy with me and give the other 4 an easier time.
— I melee ascalon fractal boss as well but im only fractal lvl 17 since i have connection issues some times and im not giving it that much time until they fix it.
So why won’t you melee the big puppy in other phases? Is it too hard? Why people don’t complain about it yet you complain about being forced to melee Simin?
No, some bosses are easier on melee and some are easier on range, but no other content in the whole game has a dps restriction like this one. I completed every other single dungeon path boss whatever there is and this is the only one that i have a hard time on. Simply because I refuse to kick someone from my party or foce him to respec. DPS builds are great and when people know what they are doing it helps to complete things a lot faster but this is not a matter of how fast you can do it, this is a restriction for players to complete content. I’m not even arguing this for myself since im a warrior with high dps but im arguing this for the other players out there who plays different builds and have the same right to complete content without the need of changing their game style if they already are good at what they do. I don’t care if the fight lasts 3 hours as long as it can be done.
It can be done, Wethospu just gave you an example of 10 minutes fight with 3 ranged players and a hybrid guardian. And that was a pug, probably 4 firsttimers. Simin encounter doesn’t have severe requirements for dps, it has requirements for using what you should have learnt in other dungeons to its fullest.
How is this at all a response to what I was saying? In fact I have no idea what you’re even talking about anymore. This whole topic has people agreeing that more killing and rewards is fun yet you seem to be saying completely different stuff every time.
That post is irrelevent now. What I’ve been saying is that you have conflicting views about what’s fun in dungeons, that’s what I’m getting here. You want memorable encounters and give fractals as a good example. I’m saying that this fractals isn’t memorable at all (or is but in bad way). I know there is a problem with skipping mobs and anet needs to address it. I’m just not agreeing that making dungeons similiar to fractals is a good idea.
If I misunderstood or misinterpretted you, consider my replies non existent and ignore them.
(edited by haviz.1340)
Trash is generally harder than the bosses
Arah in particular
Risen Illusionist Chaos Storm.
Champion Spider with it’s very strong aoe barragehonourable mention to the Champion Destroyer crab in CoE 3 and his Icebrood Wolf buddy.
Problem with icebrood wolf champ is that he deals damage twice (check combat log). It could be just a bug.
We must not play the same sides of the game. Too many unshakable/defiant non-boss mobs in my version, with far more AoE cc skills than in yours.
Do you consider a champ non-boss? Because if not I have no idea how to respond to it.
i have seen people that should be able to solo arah get rolf when they actually had to clear and do the instance without bugging it out and running everything… it goes to show how easy all this exploiting makes it and it gives a false feedback of the dungeons being too easy…
Even something as TA which you can do easily in 30min, would be somewhat a challenging if you actually killed all the mobs on your way and had to fight them at the flowers instead of just running pass everything.
In old days, when world was young and gw2 just came out, people weren’t skipping that much. I did all paths of every dungeon without skipping at least once. Shocking, I know.
Some dungeons need tweaking, but in general i do not find any of them to be too easy/without any challenge when doing them correctly. The earlier dungeons takes less to complete with success but even here you need to be awake if you are fighting everything as you were supposed to and not dragging stuff to easy area to kill them etc.
Even ac’s first boss would be ok if it just closed the sides to you couldn’t hide around the pillars but had to fight him WITH his 2 adds in the little area where he stands.
When I was still doing AC, I was actually doing that. Not pulling him.
you go on to saying tanky dps is bad… if you cannot exploit anything you are highly likely to wipe on a lot of stuff if you go glass cannon and have to clear all, especially on lupi again since he will fully kill people fast on an unlucky step and running back is exploiting the lack of a closed door mechanic (you are obviously not supposed to kill bosses by lemming them).
Okay mate, you’ve got me here. I’m a glass cannon who dies every 10 seconds at lupi. Please, stop those assumptions.
I’m bad exploiter – check my post history in exploit themed threads.
-.- your so full of it …..
p2,p3 is around just as hard as p1, p4, the only diff is bosses(which is only a real diff at p4 due to dwayna being a kitten if people doesnt know how and even here it can be an issue due to spark ai.) and how easy you can run pass mobs….. you would know this if you actually cleared the mobs instead of running and didnt bug out the bosses at all -.-
(people are alot worse at p4 becouse it’s hard to bug/run and therefore they are not used to do it since people are becomming so dependent on bugging/exploiting everything they are too kitten to do it normally.)
You really like to assume a lot of thing. First of all, I cleared all paths on my first try. Secondly, I’ve told you already, I do not use cheap tactics to kill bosses. I’m against cheese tactics. I facepalm everytime I see people jumping on ledges or using safespots. It’s slower and boring.
using D/D, S/D, staff etc. does absolutely no difference on your hp buffer in full glass cannon build and you can get one shotted by quite a few things especially lupi on double shots.
Okay, so different sets don’t have different defensive skills. And your only defense is hp buffer.
your example combo’s won’t hit anywhere near all the normal trash mob which I explained so those 2 skills to kill them all, no way especially not with an DD SD setup (staff you can maybe do it with a little luck and AWESOME dodging, but 2 skills is still pushing it even in full berserk gear and maxed out dmg traits.).
Okay, they are left maybe with 10-20% of hp. Happy? Autoattacks/party members will finish them
for groups that knows what they are doing and are really good, without running or exploiting anything, every dungeon will take around 30-60min in general with arah taking a bit longer properly 15-20min more.
Prime example being CoF1. And if you want to kill everythig in arah you should add 2 hours not 15-20 minutes.
the reason to do RAIDS! and why people like them have nothing to do with the length, but the amount of people you can bring, the fact you can do these as a “guild” instead of as a group.
in most games its a prestige guild thing or guild fun events, while dungeons limits you to a much smaller amount of people and are therefore badly suited for guilds to play together and connect…
I’ve honesly never played any MMO (except gw1 which wasn’t one) so I can’t tell anything. I just said what devs said about dungeons (hardcore content, same as raids)
ps: even the VERY best people at running arah is exploiting the place to make it easier, lupi is constantly getting bug abused to avoid him from spawning the grubs, running pass 90% of all mobs becouse they can and it saves time, boss mechanics being misused to the max to make them easy mode instead of actually fighting them in a way where they actually utilise their skillsets and effects…
these people could properly do it without any of these but ofc they dont since its a general acceptence not to. but even these people will find challenge when having to do them correctly.
What bug? Never heard about glitching him to not spawn grubs. Unless you mean those vidoes of a warrior soloing him and never spawning a single grub. EXPLOITER, I’m so gonna report his kitten
I really would like to see those “VERY best people” you’re talking about.
100b can easily hit 16-18k; your 10k chrning earth is nothing — 100b can be reduced to a fraction of the cd fire grab and churning earth have so it’s far more spammable massive damage.
100b can hit for 30k with similiar gear but it is the only skill on warrior bar that does so much damage. Churning earth deals some damage through bleeds as well.
first, I do melee Lupicus.
In all phases? And how many people does that? The general consensus is that you don’t melee him in phase 1. I’ve been kicked few times already for that.
some players ARE NOT SPEC to melee or simply doesnt have a melee weapon on their inventory.
So, explain me how justified is meleeing boss in ascalon fractals who deals agony twice for those in melee and 0 or 1 agony for those that stay behind. There are so much more bosses with anti-melee mechanics you should deal with 1 boss requiring some melee.
again, if there is only one set up for players to do a boss, then the whole idea of removing the holy trinity from the game failed right there.
Again, same thing. Some bosses require melee, some ranged.
(edited by haviz.1340)
I challenge you to do it with only 1 melee class.
nuff said.
I still havent find a video where they do it without bugs using a random party set up: lets say, pet necro, staff elem, support tanky warrior, bow ranger (choose any of those and make it x2 to complete the party). If this party can’t do it then we are back at having specific group composition to compelte content, why not bring the holy trinity back while we are it?
This game had a GREAT idea that was not requiring a specific group to do things… this boss goes against that.
Every class except engy is melee (and its toolkit is melee). So what do you say about lupicus and others bosses that are highly anti-melee? Did any of you kittened about that? Melee = more damage, that’s why you melee her.
Other percentage value, critical chance, is being scaled down appropriately. You only need 6 precision to increase critical chance by 1% at level 35. So I really see no reason why anet made crit damage being so bad at downscalling.
It’s funny that people would not consider “positioning advantage” an exploit. After all, you’re exploiting pathing and scripting of bosses.
Like i said we were mostly arah noobs doing p2 so we killed almost everything on the way just to be on the safe side.
Yet i still don’t think that even an experienced group will do less than 1h if they stop at every single group they find on the way.If the mobs were like in the fractals, mostly vets with a few normal companions, I could take an extra min and actually enjoy slaughtering undead. As it is now you spend as much time killing 1 silver mob as killing a whole pack of vets and this isn’t anywhere near fun.
Just so i don’t get misunderstood, I’m not saying to remove all of those hp buffed kittens but make them only appear in a few checkpoints like in a door to prevent full dungeon running.My view on dungeon running is that it should be allowed to some extent:
You could skip a few groups here and there, by sacrificing loot and having an harder time to run back in case of death, while still not being able to run through the whole thing.
It is ridiculous know on how much content you can skip at the moment but i hope it stays this way until they finally realize that trash mobs shouldn’t take that much time to kill.
Arah needs to lose those trash,, it’s simply too many of them. But changing them to vets isn’t good idea.
Let me start with saying I have beaten this even after all the buffs that were given to dwayna.(invul will invis ,x2 faster healing) although it was only because of the spark 50% glitch even with a dps team 1 guard 3 war 1 mesmer
I find the issue with the boss is1.The sparks are ranged so they get stuck and spaz around all over the place and can easily be deaggo if just walk to the other side of the pillar.
2. Since the boss is now invul during invis conditions cant slow the healing which gives you about 15 seconds before the boss is full healed
3. The boss bascially requires a full dps team composition (needs melee)
4. going with 3 due to petrification your basically only doing dps with 4 ppl while one throws the tears.
Three simple fixes tp help the boss go smoother and beatable without a specfic team composition/exploits
1.Turn the sparks to melee creature and extend the aggo radius to the whole cavern
2.Everytime the sparks gets put into the circles dwyana gets a unique buff that amplifies the damge taken / or at a certain number of stacks auto kills the boss
3..return the healing speed to what its orginal rate
1. Aggro for whole cavern? You’re not jesting, right?
2. So baddies can do it after 6hrs by running 1 spark?
3. Her healing rate is the same as before “buff”.
I’ve done it about 10 times before and after “buff”, there’s virtually no difference if you weren’t punching her through invi but doing it legitimately.
Conditions from fields are negligible, specially because burning only stacks in duration and we already can keep permanent burning by ourselves. Bleeds from Churning Earth are nothing, if i crit with 25 stacks of might and churning earth for 4-5k direct damage I’m really lucky most of the time is a non-crit for 2k, plus my bleeds do around 4k thats around 6k-8k damage (over time) with our biggest hitting skill. My mesmer can do the same damage instantly and also in aoe while being invulnerable and on a 6 sec cd without any might stacks.
Granted, we’re comparing a support/bunker build to a damage build, but what we do as support is not good damage, despite what some people would make you think. If you try to build and gear an elementalist for damage, you lose all the benefits from support and barely get anything in exchange, you do more damage but still less than any decent war/mes/thief, and you lose a gigantic amount of defense and utility.
At any rate, the biggest issue i have with all of this is not just about elementalists, but with all clases. Traits, utilities and Weapon skills are not different or interesting enough to create “builds” they are all shades of the same roll, which makes it easy to identify what is the “better” build.
Where do you get those numbers from? AC, CM? At lvl 80 my churning earth does about 10-12k direct damage when critted (chance at ~65%) with some might stacks (10-15) without proccing bolt to the heart and vital striking (which would increase that by 30%). Air autoattacks in d/d deals 2.5-3k and they strike twice.
If you try to build ele for damage you lose healing power which is bad anyway and defense. What utility do you lose exactly?
first of i am calling you out on the bs: i dont believe that you dont get challange fighting 3+ silver mobs(or lupi for that matter since he literally 1 shot you in full dps spec) in arah on a DPS! spec ele, i simply do not believe that and you would have to provide the vid to prove this (unless you got a sick group which carry you but then it doesnt matter WHICH build you go becouse your group with easily 4 man it) in the same manner as i do not believe you throw down 2 skills and kill all the “normal trash” without any cc skill to slow them down (not on a ele thats for sure).
Yes, I’m being carried all the time. I’m really bad. That’s why I’m pugging most of the time. To get carried.
Burning retreat plus fire grab does the job most of the time. Or Phoenix plus ring of fire. I don’t play bunker ele so I deal some decent damage. Lupi doesn’t 1 shot me because I don’t use staff like 99% of eles.
when that is said challenge in dungeons for those that does it WITHOUT EXPLOITING AND CHEATING! is planty high, it is actually at the place where only specific tanky dps build and people that have ran it like crazy got any chance in hell of doing it without dying.
even people that are sickly good in a crazy group dies quite a bit over ONE dungeon arah run.
so complaining its not challenging is bullkitten and you should just stop bugging/exploiting everything and actually do the bosses and trash mob as they where intended, instead of “rushing/running” pass all trashmobs and bugging/exploiting all bosses.
Why do you assume I exploit/bug all the bosses? I hate cheese (some would call them smart) tactics. Last time I did arah with people I know + 2 pick ups, we’ve said that dead = kick. No one died. And I know that 4 people (including me) were glasses. So it’s quite possible to do that. And we did not use any exploit/cheese tactics etc. Unless you consider meleeing every boss an exploit.
fractals move in the right direction yes but fractals are more of a riddle thing, which then turns into an increasing survival mode, where it’s a simple test of “do you have the sustain to keep alive?”, the best parties for fractal 80 is simply a TON!! of healing/tank on every person in there, becouse its a simple survival game, it got nothing to do with diversity and it provides no meaningfull mix of classes or playstyles, its a one trick play which is sad.
That’s correct. Fractals on high level are suitable for bunkers.
dungeons should provide a fast paced fun and enjoyable experience which caters to many different playstyles and which provide challanging that is best cleared with a nice mixture of dps/support/tank specced builds where people got different roles and different reasons why its best that you got diversity in your setup, which in return can result in a much more diverse type of encounter and ways to go about winning them.
(as it is now in all dungeon its tanky dps build win all, and in fractal, tanky healers win all.. there is no room for actual pure tanks, or actual pure supports or actual pure dps builds, it is simply just dragging down the team becouse the team synergy in dungeons are none existing and the setup is better of having every one in full solo spec then in specs which theoretically should have a good synergy with their parties. and that is a problem in gw2 right now)
I guess some people would want to have those long difficult dungeons instead of raids. Right now, only Arah (except p3 and maybe p2) might be good replacement for them. And tanky dps builds are pretty bad. What you want is pure dps.
What are you talking about? Valkyrie gear doesn’t have healing. And if you want a more offensive build + higher HP, valkyrie + berserker does that.
You do realize he’s talking about pvp version of valkyrie’s amulet?
Open world isn’t even relevant in this discussion. Open world can be done with 1 or 100 people, and mobs respawn blah blah blah.
See the issue here is pacing. Just because fractals has better pacing doesn’t mean dungeons should be left with kitten pacing. There is just no logic in that argument. Yes, we do need exact same systems if one of the systems kittening sucks. and the fact that everyone skips it is testament to this fact.
Fractals were designed as a series of mini-dungeon. Of course they should be faster, you’re doing 3 or 4 in one run.
By your logic, if everyone exploits, should anet just add “i-win” button so you can get all shinies? Should all paths take approx. 10 minutes because everyones does CoF1?
Please try playing bunker D/D and test how much damage you can do bursting on a moving WvW player as a target. Then count how many of your skills hit and how many miss. All 3 of the strong damage skills you mentioned can miss easily and of course we don’t expect our target to stand in 1 place and take all that damage. But then again you’ll barely reach15k burst even if Churning earth, burning retreat, and fire grab hits unless you’re hitting a glass cannon or up-leveled or light armored enemy.
I’m sorry but I’m still unconvinced, you can try elaborating more. I’ll still stand on my ground, bunker D/D is not OP, it’s flashy. People are just not used to targets with very good mobility and when most of their skills miss, they claim that D/D/ is OP. D/D does not need to be nerfed, but rather other weapon sets need to be buffed.
I did play bunker at the beginning (circa September). Then I moved to more aggressive playstyle because playing bunker was too safe and boring, leave attrition fights to necros.
CE can hit balanced build for 10-15k with right traits and gear. There’s an vid on youtube of ele in sPvP (that means less stats and no food) doing some sick damage to a ranger with just burning retreat and fire grab (he didn’t have mights stacked before).
PVT have synergy with sharpening stones/maintenaince oils.
MF don’t.so, casual player in PVT + consumable does more demage then with mf, and have a higher threshold for mistakes.
and obviously players who do little to no mistakes perform better with berserkers gear.
Potions are better than sharpening stones/maintenance oils. They are good in wvw though but no one would use MF in wvw. Plus, pots lessens damage you take.
D/D eles solo champs by sitting there and making sure every single weapon skill and attunement is on cooldown. Not that hard.
Who cares if you can solo champs — my mesmer can solo champs, as can my ranger and any decent warrior with a rifle and greatsword.
I bet you I can solo that champion on my mesmer or warrior FASTER, because the simple truth is I got kittenloads more sustained damage.
You can solo legendary mobs as a war and as an ele.
It’s not only loot.
I did arah p2 in a group full of first timers killing most things in the way: time spent ~=3h
After i did p3 with a pug (they explained me what to do since i was doing it for the 1st time): time spent 25minDungeons need trash mobs, something as to be in between some boss fights, but the time spent to clear a dungeon has to be reasonable enough for people to kill them.
Take fractals for example:
You don’t need to kill all the mobs at maw but some still do it because of loot and they’re not annoying to kill. (extra kill time 5-10min tops)
Dredge and grawl sometimes are a pain in the kitten but they go down easily enough and you get awesome loot from bags. (you got to kill them anyway but at least i don’t feel that it’s too boring).With the “regular dungeons” you only get a bunch of silver mobs with too much hp and a lot of annoying skills that even with an upgraded loot aren’t worth the time to kill.
Again with arah: the deadeyes and asura techs on p2 are just there to avoid runners. There’s no other explanation to have 1hit kills at distance and permanent stun if they didn’t already know that people would try to skip content.
tl;dr
Just make dungeons not last 4x longer when killing mobs and most people will actually take and extra couple minutes killing groups that may cross their way.
Path 2 isn’t that long, good team will clear it in 30-40 minutes max while path 3 is 15-20 minutes. Problem is, most pugs prefer path of the least resistance.
I’d like you to please elaborate how you can say that a D/D ele does not give up his offense/damage. Maybe it’s me who’s missing the point and maybe you can enlighten me. As for now, I believe Bunker eles win by prolonging the fight and the fastest to go down would be pure glass cannon builds who failed to do an initial burst attack. Though if you are able to prolong a fight w/ a bunker ele, it’ll take you no time to guess his/her attack patterns and it would be much easier to counter eles.
Cheers!
You lose your offense by speccing into bunker, set doesn’t. What d/d eles loses compared to other sets? You do have defensive skills (2 auras, healing on 2 skills, weakness, chill), strong damage skills (burning retreat, fire grab, churning earth, etc). The only burstier and more defensive set at the same time is S/D but it’s much harder to land your combos. Try playing more damage oriented d/d ele and you’ll see it still hasn’t issues with survival and damage.
Adding 1-2k might be a good idea. There is 3290 hp gap between war/necro and ranger/mesmer/eng and 4277 between medium tier and the lowest. Maybe that would stop 99.9% people from build bunkers all day.
Blocks shouldn’t be the end-all way of being purposeful in dungeons. In actuality, block is a lot like blind (yes i know they arent the same, but the end effect is not completely different). The very fact that Guardians aren’t IMPERATIVE to have in a dungeon run also negates the ‘must have aegis’ argument. blocks are nice to have but their value isn’t paramount
One doesn’t actually need to consciously ‘AoE’ in GW2, its pretty much integrated into most attack already. More importantly it’d be less about about ‘spamming aoe’ than using it effectively and efficiently. Especially with how people use rotations, they are likely to use aoe skills on single targets anyways. AoE is not an issue.
Look at the Arah3 villager mobs right at the beginning. Spamming AoE isn’t always effective if its ill coordinated with the rest of your team. You can get overwhelmed easily and the silver risen mage will devastate you with aoes.
The combination of trashy trash mobs and silver mobs actually balances encounters very well. Trash mobs add chaos to the mix; they are a source of constant damage and distraction, which makes the silver mobs attacks less predictable and more dangerous. When silver mobs are easily singled out none of their attacks become difficult to see.
You do Arah3 like that: pull them in one spot -> nuke all trash-> deal with 2 silver mobs.
Hard cc is even more useful on trash mobs than silvers and golds. Most of those have unshakable whereas a single Tremor (for example) face plants a line of trash for 2 seconds of free hits.
Silvers don’t have unshakable. And there aren’t many others AoE stuns. Most of them are single targetted.
you dont seem to run dps spec where cc is even needed -.-
i normally run pure glasscannon ele (its really bad but its more me and i love glass cannons(even though they suck monkey balls in gw2, they are more like glass paper blowers), so when i am allowed i do it :P )
this means normal trash mobs actually do hit me hard and i need to avoid getting hit too much (they dont 1-2 shot me as all the elites BUT still noticible).
on elites(silver) the dodge is usually enough to keep me up forever if i dont misuse it and kite, on the tons of trashmobs i am FORCED! to use several cc spells just to keep them at bay while i can aoe kill them. cc is MUCH more needed vs. swarms of thin hp mobs then big hard hitting single mobs, due to the amount of attacks and the dodge function in game.its a matter of balance you need trash mobs and elites in between. meaning trash gets cleared fast by good teamwork and you are left with the 1-2 elites which you need to now finish of..
its the same reason you don’t just run in a dungeon do 6-10 bosses then the endboss an your done… big scary monsters are annoying to fight and boring if you gotta fight them all the time, low hp trash is fun to destroy and having a real end challenge of a scary big kitten will make that last big one fun.
I play glass ele, thief and guardian. Trash mobs mean 0 issues whatsoever when you use 2 skills to kill 5 of them.
I’d like anet to make this game more challenging and imho adding more trash like those in fractals/open world will not make it. If you want that feeling of trash -> fun boss, it’s already in fractals. We don’t really need 3 exact systems. That’s why they added elites to dungeons in the first place. The current problem is that they don’t offer any decent rewards and (for most people) have too much hp.
We may have different sight about PVT gear but i thought at least you know a bit about PVT. But after such a statement at this point i really have to ask you, if you know what are you talking about?
Do just some math on a full PVT and an full MF gear, you do not even come close to with MF to a PVT damage (take a look at some class skills to!). You can do more damage with PVT as with MF and have quite good chance to survive also some bad situations.So please do not try to be such closed-minded, i think you do not need that.
The math is simple. PVT give more power but MF gives precision as well – full MF gives same crit chance as zerker (~35%). So, yeah I’m pretty sure you deal similiar damage.
So tactical use of terrain is an exploit now?
What’s next? Using Heal Skills is an exploit?
Nice use of euphemism. Do you consider skipping to the last boss in 5 minute and then selling 4 slots for 5g each “a tactical use of terrain”?
Vastly different posts. Could’ve been percent, could’ve been hit points.
Because as other people have pointed out, much like how Diablo 2 gets it right; Killing stuff is fun. Hitting the same thing for 5 minutes with no chance of tactics required or difference in scenery is BORING.
Okay, I stand corrected, I left “times” word but it should be quite obvious that 10-20 more hp doesn’t sound realistically.
The thing is, you hit them for 5 minutes with no tactics because they’re too easy. Hitting 100 mobs will not be more fun. Unless you consider spamming AoE fun. Those groups of mobs someone mentioned (start of Arah3 for instance) are just like that. Spam AoE and then finish 2 silver mobs. How’s that different?
Adding normal trash will just devaluate blocks and hard cc.
You really choose choice words to leave out of ur post. you said 10-20 in the original post btw. But hey whatevs, this topic was to give Mr Hrouda some visual stimuli of what could possibly be an interesting way to change dungeon trash fights.
I don’t think I left out anything.
Do you really think we should fight the horde of trash mobs? Isn’t that what we already have in open world and fractals?
@Kailoq – I see where you’re coming from with regards to pure damage output, but I personally think precision would be more beneficial in conjunction with the trait that has a 33% chance to grant Vigor on crit. That’s 2% more damage (traited properly) plus quicker endurance regen which means more dodges which means more heals (or earthquakes, or blinds, or useless flame bursts)! But I guess it depends on your playstyle.
There’s only a 51 point difference in precision, which roughly translates into a 2.5% difference in crit chance. With crit damage on the other hand, each time you crit you’ll deal 182% damage, rather than 170%. Evasive arcana has a longer cooldown than vigor regen, even when running with just 30% crit chance. Where are you getting that 2% damage from?
Plus, using active damage mitigation resource for passive damage mitigation seems a bit out of place for me.
It’s one of those human things to do something with the path of least resistance and danger, especially when there is a reward at the end. I could make enemies never drop their aggro on players and force them to fight every single mob, but I don’t see that as a viable solution right now.
I think the better solution is to look at why people are skipping things, and approach from a different angle. Trash mobs have too much HP, and can’t be counted on for lucrative drops from a Risk/Time vs Reward, so people interested in making money (most groups) aren’t incentivized to do it, whereas the end chest/boss are more guaranteed and accountable returns on time and risk. I also think there is something to be said about interesting trash mob mechanics making them more enjoyable of a fight.
I can’t make the rewards from trash mobs so lucrative though that people just farm the first couple trash mobs/boss in a dungeon and then rinse/repeat. We encountered this when people just farmed the first boss in an instance and then restarted it (earlier around launch time), and we had to adjust the content as a result. It’s a fine line you have to walk to encourage players to get to the end, but make the process of getting there rewarding enough as well.I don’t imagine this next update will resolve all the skipping behavior. The path of least resistance is engrained in people, and even if I do everything I could to incentivize people, there will still be those who skip stuff. I have been fixing exploits that will require players to complete more of the events in dungeons, but I am sure people will still skip what they can to get to their end goal.
For now I would encourage those not looking to skip to find some folks who don’t like skipping and make a guild with them… or maybe look for guilds that are dedicated to not skipping, and tag along with them. I’m in a couple of them (anonymously), and it really is an effective solution to playing the game the way you want to play it: Find other people with similar interests and band together with them.
If you’re afraid about people farming first mobs, why not make mobs drop better loot the further you are in a dungeon and the more you killed already?
Won’t be too sure about that:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Will-the-new-update-stop-skipping/first#post1205684
Even this guy thinks trash mobs have too much HP.
I said that they probably wouldn’t decrease their hp 10-20 times because that would have made them simple trash mobs. He only said about decreasing, but gave no specifics.
nowhere in the game are they ever referenced as elite mobs.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=elite&fulltext=SearchBut hey, thats beside the point. In the end if you rebalance them by lowering their hp, they essentially become regular mobs with fantastic skills, which is also a good thing. Kind of my point really, the hp is a real issue.
I guess that’s unofficial name then.
They have about 10-20 more hp than usual trash. I don’t think anet would decrease their hp by that factor.
Please explain the correlation between trash mobs and elite skills? Because AFAIK elite skills are so different such that it is almost pointless to generalize them all into one category.
And whats wrong with CC skills? As a guardian I’ve been able to use warding skills to great effect all the time in Arah. As a necromancer I often snare. As a thief I can hold off many non-champion mobs with blinds.
You had to misunderstood me. Elites != elite skills but silver mob.
It’s cause they love adding silver mobs, instead of a bunch of normal mobs.
Non-bronze/silvers actually die really fast and feel like that, too bad they’re pretty few and far between.
I actually like the 1 silver mob + tons of trash groups way more then 3-4 silver mob groups. They should do more of those instead of all the stupid silver groups.
This. The starting mob group in Arah3 and the group after the alcohol boss in Arah1 are fun. It also elevates the status of silver mobs; the Arah ones COULD be fun since their attacks are quite varied and dangerous, but I can’t say the same about the other mobs in other dungeons.
And yeah – Fractals are sort of getting it right now, more paper thin mobs = more fun. More loot too!
Mr Hrouda even agrees trash mobs have too much HP.
Adding more trash mobs instead of rebalancing elites will only make cc skills even more worthless. Same thing will happen to dodging. Too many mobs on the screen and you can’t see what’s going on, so you will just aoe.
(edited by haviz.1340)
The only decent improvement I can see is to increase minimal number of votes from 2 to 3. Other than that I can’t really see how that could be improved. Supposedly, you run with 4 people from same guild. How would you design a system that would allow them to kick you for playing badly and not for trolling/griefing during last boss’s fight?
-snip-
Agreed, but this topic is about MF so I think that this applies to novice groups as well. Wearing MF gear on 1st trip into the abyss of new dungeon won’t give memorable experience (or rather it will). For further runs most people want to do it as fast as possible (skippers, exploiters, speedrunners) and balanced compositions are still not needed (until anet decides that dungs are currently too easy) to complete them without any trouble. Hence, if you are experienced and your team doesn’t care, you could wear MF gear.
-snip-
The truth is that the fastest way to do dungeons isn’t by playing balanced builds but straight dps. Until anet increases overall difficulty level balanced builds won’t be as efficient as they should be.
Necroing this thread because minions are still spawning on grubs, joined a group the other day and indeed 2 spawned on grubs and he ate them asap, making the fight slightly difficult, it’s worse that I constantly have a minion spawn because they live so long. So putting my necro back in the shelf for this fight.
EDIT:
This work has not been patched into the game yet.
cheers
You don’t need more defensive stats than those coming from traits. Game is easy enough.
If you can do it, great. dodge every attack, and never go down then I applaud your ability. If you go down once, and I get you up you have now caused the party to do less damage than if you were able to keep yourself up. so far I’ve played full zerker and I cannot get behind it.
No hard numbers because I don’t have a parser but from my tests In full zerker I get about 5%-8% more DPS (depending on encounter and what weapon I use) than my mix and match set. but with that one it gives me a “just in case” buffer, time for heals, dodges, and getting allies up when they go down. It’s hard to quantify that again no parser and also survivability is always hard to quantify. But I would wager that it’s at least a 50% increase to survivability. The trade off is a no brainier to me. because I cannot account for my party, or my opponents (Wv3).
Slightly less damage for a lot more survivability? slightly more damage for a lot less survivability?
I cant help but think this is what Anet wanted considering the ability to mix and match.
Either way. Seems you are a much better player than I if you simply never go down… or you play a thief (I don’t) but I cannot help but be envious of the ability to just poof away when things are harry. No need for defense I just disappear.
The time good player spends on the floor is more than justified by the damage he provides. I’ve never said about not going down at all. Your min/maxing might help in fractals where mobs don’t deal so much damage (damage is spread) as elites in standard dungeon (arah mobs deal about 3.5k with each auto on glass ele).
And yes, I have full zerker thief.
You can mix match only in pve. In pvp your min/maxing ability is severely crippled.
I haven’t done AC in ages, but are people really glitching bosses there? Anet should just make a button that gives tokens/silver/other shinies. Do those parties kick “renegade” players trying to dps them normally?
all my characters have mix and match sets that maximize whatever I’m building them for, while keeping secondary stats and effects as high as possible.
As I said, When you are rolling Perm furry and your base 6 Piece armor is zerker adding Valkyrie/Beryl jewelery or Knight’s/Emerald jewelery or just tossing the gems in your zerker jewelery. Or tossing Rubies into the aforementioned Jewelry, Heck tossing some Soldier’s jewelry in with some rubies in it. All those options would net you very little damage loss and a lot more damage mitigation. there is a point where its just not worth it to keep stacking damage or defenses because there is only so much you can improve in one area.
I will take a glass cannon that deals 5% less damage but can take 2 more hits, any day. A lot of boss fights are brutal on mistakes and I rather have a glass cannon that is not broken if a party mistake is made. this goes the same (though opposite) for bunkers. I just don’t see any reason to build 100% one way. Its a disservice to you and your party.
You don’t need more defensive stats than those coming from traits. Game is easy enough.
-snip-
When you want to maximize direct damage, there’s really no choice (full zerker). You can play with mixing your gear, but for the optimal dps zerker is the way to go.
search a big karka (vet or champion) use your magnetic grasp….
you’ll see the issue……(happens in many occasions, just with karka is 100%).
Seems your L2P suggestion wasn t that smart…….
or Lupi. It doesn’t work at all with bigger targets.