I find that Elementalist is actually in a decent spot now that Drake’s Breath is a bit weaker and lightning whip is a bit cleaner. I also find that overall Engineer, while a bit OP, is pretty close to where it should be.
For Ele, What specific skills do you feel are OP?
For Engineer, What specific skills do you feel are OP?
1) Burning speed: it is an evade, fire field, does high dmg and burns. Has a low cd.
2) Ring of fire: the cooldown is too low
3) Shocking aura: too low cd for a cc that is so easy to land. Maybe change from stun to daze or increase the cd to 30-35
4) Magnetic grasp: any reason for this to be unblockable?
5)Fire grab: reduce the dmg when enemy is burning and increase the normal base dmg. Could also reduce the cooldown but reduce the dmg.
6) Lightning whip dmg could be reduced a little bit.
Odd how all of these are just D/D related and Scepter is actually a lot worse… Anyway…
Scepter is bad because most of it is instant (lookin at you fresh air), however scepter puts out that damage at the risk of little to no sustain. High risk, High Reward. D/d ele is little risk amazingly high reward.
Really and what is an ele’s achilles heel? Please do tell.
Ele’s achilles heel has always been well-timed burst (after water), both condition and power. If an ele gets bursted after leaving water, he can’t recover and WILL die. A lot of the best eles are able to avoid bursts with dodges or positioning when trouble is imminent, but this is how ele dies. Yes, a thief generally shouldn’t 1v1 an ele, but if they time their burst on an ele in a +1 situation correctly, the fight is over almost immediately. By comparison, other bunkers (like guards) are much better at recovering from large bursts.
Also, well-timed boon-strip wrecks an ele. Take off the might and they hit like a wet noodle. Take off the prot/vigor and they melt.
It just so happens that the current meta is a lot of sustained damage and cleave that makes it dangerous for many bursters (or that they don’t practice enough together to coordinate their bursts with perfect timing), and plays into the weakness of straight bunkers (like bunker guards).
That’s just it a well timed burst after water means nothing because of the following,
Armor of earth (vigor, regen, stab, and protection, making your burst useless)
Lightning Flash (Teleport regen, and vigor OH MY!)
Cleansing Fire (Vigor, regen, condi clear OH MY!)
Earth attunement (Protection! what burst you say?!) and if all else fails
Air attunement>RTL lightning whip auto attack to heal…
and then they have water attunement again. Not to mention each cantrip, is also a condi clear on it’s own.
Except the two I mentioned can do a variety of things exceptionally well. Mesmers are nowhere near the level of absurdity as the two mentioned. When you have access to ALL of that, it’s an issue. Elementalist’s were not nerfed into the ground since beta, in fact they were the kings of spvp at launch so I don’t know where you’re getting your facts from.
Edit: And if you believe all professions have to compromise something, you’re delusional.
Well I played Ele since Beta and I get my facts from all the patch notes for all the nerfs since then (the first one was to damage, then cantrips change, the more recent ones were to mobility/range and cooldown timers etc).
And yes all classes have an Achilles heel.
Really and what is an ele’s achilles heel? Please do tell. Wanna talk about nerfed into the ground… How about dat double whammy blurred frenzy nerf, OR even better the gauranteed removal of any confusion mesmers in pvp.
I know the Abjured as a team is good and they’re all good on a personal skill level, but they can’t be THAT much better individually than everyone else… right? I’m sure their comp plays a role in their success.
Their comp is their success yes. Sure individual skill matters a great deal, however currently there is nothing, not a single thing in this meta, that counters a triple celestial team of some sort.
maybe this is where a PU phantasm power mesmer could have a legit place in conquest. it beats thief and puts out huge damage while staying survivable.
Except it is immediately destroyed by Wakkey/Phanta AOE damage.
not 100% sure that’s the case but even so, his role would not be to fight elementalists in most cases.
It would be to fight magic toker, that he could never catch.
his real role is to put a lot of DPS on nos and fivegauge so that they will die too quickly 2v3 if toker leaves the point, so toker has to stay. if he leaves to +1 a side node you have to quickly kill engi and necro and cap because you’re going to have an ele and thf collapse on you shortly. if you can threaten to take out engi and necro then toker has to stay and help. that’s the idea anyway.
And the amount of AOE pressure 5 guage puts out on his own. Let alone with NOS. Even a traited phantasm build will not survive that much aoe pressure. AOE spam is part of why mesmers were removed from the meta over a year ago NA (Just now are they starting to creep back in.)
Also another thing you are completely missing, a PU mesmer. I don’t care if he is power PU, condi, PU or anything else. That is the most useless build in a conquest mode. Sure mesmers are running torch right now but that is to help them set up their shatter bursts not for the effects of PU.
Lastly if a “power phantasm PU mesmer” were to try and help counter the abjured, he would be terrible as a phantasm mesmer, terrible as a power mesmer, and be a PU mesmer. The amount of traits he would have to take to make “Power phantasm PU” work, are just not available.
this post isn’t about PU mesmers. that was just an afterthought about a class that can add pressure to the already existing 2v2 while still surviving vs toker
Maybe they could survive vs toker, but the amount of AOE pressure 5guage and nos put out alone in said fight would nullify anything useful that mesmer is doing.
the mesmer wouldnt be taking pressure from anyone but toker. 2 other people are fighting nos and 5g up close.
That may be. But 5guage and Nos put out so much AOE pressure they wouldnt need to focus the mesmer or his phantasms they would just get cleaved out. The abjured excel at fighting together and the larger the fight gets the better they become, the bigger the fight gets the more useless any kind of mesmer becomes, but more specifically a phantasm mesmer.
Or rework the daily system so that it doesn’t end up forcing a bunch of players onto random professions that they don’t want to play and are awful at when a large portion of the community prefers to only play a single (or very small number) of professions.
I’d prefer if they are gonna bribe people with phat lewtz that they just rework the whole darn thing. Give us like 5 gems for a loss and 10 gems for a win or something and maybe bonus gems for certain achievements. People who are dedicated to spvp seem only to care about skins.
They used to give out gems actually.
Don’t recall that. Do remember getting skins and dyes from forge when I first drifted from wvw to spvp.
This was way back after launch. Like right after launch, when tournaments costed tickets and the rewards were gems. Also it was one map per week, and temple of the silent storm didn’t exist yet.
maybe this is where a PU phantasm power mesmer could have a legit place in conquest. it beats thief and puts out huge damage while staying survivable.
Except it is immediately destroyed by Wakkey/Phanta AOE damage.
not 100% sure that’s the case but even so, his role would not be to fight elementalists in most cases.
It would be to fight magic toker, that he could never catch.
his real role is to put a lot of DPS on nos and fivegauge so that they will die too quickly 2v3 if toker leaves the point, so toker has to stay. if he leaves to +1 a side node you have to quickly kill engi and necro and cap because you’re going to have an ele and thf collapse on you shortly. if you can threaten to take out engi and necro then toker has to stay and help. that’s the idea anyway.
And the amount of AOE pressure 5 guage puts out on his own. Let alone with NOS. Even a traited phantasm build will not survive that much aoe pressure. AOE spam is part of why mesmers were removed from the meta over a year ago NA (Just now are they starting to creep back in.)
Also another thing you are completely missing, a PU mesmer. I don’t care if he is power PU, condi, PU or anything else. That is the most useless build in a conquest mode. Sure mesmers are running torch right now but that is to help them set up their shatter bursts not for the effects of PU.
Lastly if a “power phantasm PU mesmer” were to try and help counter the abjured, he would be terrible as a phantasm mesmer, terrible as a power mesmer, and be a PU mesmer. The amount of traits he would have to take to make “Power phantasm PU” work, are just not available.
this post isn’t about PU mesmers. that was just an afterthought about a class that can add pressure to the already existing 2v2 while still surviving vs toker
Maybe they could survive vs toker, but the amount of AOE pressure 5guage and nos put out alone in said fight would nullify anything useful that mesmer is doing.
maybe this is where a PU phantasm power mesmer could have a legit place in conquest. it beats thief and puts out huge damage while staying survivable.
Except it is immediately destroyed by Wakkey/Phanta AOE damage.
not 100% sure that’s the case but even so, his role would not be to fight elementalists in most cases.
It would be to fight magic toker, that he could never catch.
his real role is to put a lot of DPS on nos and fivegauge so that they will die too quickly 2v3 if toker leaves the point, so toker has to stay. if he leaves to +1 a side node you have to quickly kill engi and necro and cap because you’re going to have an ele and thf collapse on you shortly. if you can threaten to take out engi and necro then toker has to stay and help. that’s the idea anyway.
And the amount of AOE pressure 5 guage puts out on his own. Let alone with NOS. Even a traited phantasm build will not survive that much aoe pressure. AOE spam is part of why mesmers were removed from the meta over a year ago NA (Just now are they starting to creep back in.)
Also another thing you are completely missing, a PU mesmer. I don’t care if he is power PU, condi, PU or anything else. That is the most useless build in a conquest mode. Sure mesmers are running torch right now but that is to help them set up their shatter bursts not for the effects of PU.
Lastly if a “power phantasm PU mesmer” were to try and help counter the abjured, he would be terrible as a phantasm mesmer, terrible as a power mesmer, and be a PU mesmer. The amount of traits he would have to take to make “Power phantasm PU” work, are just not available.
Or rework the daily system so that it doesn’t end up forcing a bunch of players onto random professions that they don’t want to play and are awful at when a large portion of the community prefers to only play a single (or very small number) of professions.
I’d prefer if they are gonna bribe people with phat lewtz that they just rework the whole darn thing. Give us like 5 gems for a loss and 10 gems for a win or something and maybe bonus gems for certain achievements. People who are dedicated to spvp seem only to care about skins.
Definitely helps against a lot of thieves too, as they tend to attack in rapid succession, making a strung out Diversion pretty effective. Not going to help against every Thief, but a whole bunch of them blow themselves up when interrupted. I’d say Masterful Reflection is another oft overlooked trait as well, that can actually help a whole lot in PvP.
Masterful reflection is my favorite trait (outside of iPersona/DE of course). Nothing better than having a LB rapid fire ranger blow himself up. Then hate whisper you for playing something cheesy.
I know, right? It’s also hilarious to cause Longbow Warriors to Immobilize themselves, D/P Thieves to Blind themselves when they try using a Shadow Shot to get close to you, Necromancers to hit a whole bunch of their skills back at themselves. The list goes on. It’s a really fun and useful trait in PvP. I also like how it’s very visually distinct that you have traited it, so the enemy can counter play on it when they see it activated. Pretty sure the sound effect is slightly changed too.
LOVE masterful reflection but condi necro specifically does not have many projectiles contrary to popular belief
Only staff auto attack is a projectile the marks are not and the auto attack aint killing anybody
all of the scepter attacks are not projectiles only dagger#4 is but that doesn’t really stack condis on you its a blind/transfer
lifeblast on condi spec does nothing and dark path is unblockable – does it get reflected?
yes it does. I have been teleported into the middle of enemy zergs in wvw because a necro’s dark path went off into my feedback.
Except when you have 65% plus access to protection and arguably the best condition-removal in the game, that weak defense isn’t exactly correct. So if we’re talking about investing everything else into sustain, can you name any other profession that can do it just as well if not better when investing as much?
edit: Again to bring up a prime example would be bunker Guardian. It had decent sustain and superb support with investing as much into self-sustain as elementalists do. That was it. It had very little in the department of CC/Mobility/Burst/Condition dmg. That’s how it should be.
My issue with what is going on with celestial/ele/engi is this.
Elementalists are traited HEAVILY into boon duration uptime and condition removal (that’s great good for them!).
They take the might stacking runes (hoelbrak), now they have great condi clear on top of reduced condi duration (well now most condi classes can’t face them).
Then they have the HIGHEST absolute highest protection uptime in this game, which is easily reapplied over, and over, and over. This eliminates any direct damage class that can’t boon strip, and greatly hinders the direct damage classes that can boon strip because of how quickly protection is reapplied through, auras, armor of earth, earth attunement ETC.
They have very high fury/might uptime between attunement swapping and fire field blasting this gives them the same offensive stats as a player using a berserkers amulet and they still are very hard to kill because of their investment into condi removal and boon duration.
They never have to worry about managing their heals. Yes the signet of restoration was garbage in PvP before, but now to reset a fight all an ele has to do is RTL (or Fiery rush+whirlwind away) then spam lightning AA for 5 seconds and then they can come back in, if you capped the point in the time they were gone it’s no skin off their nose because they have enough CC to at least get the point decapped again.
So the problem with at least D/D Cele Ele right now isn’t that they are a jack of all trades, they are masters of all trades.
- Highest uptime on most damage condition in the game? Check
- Highest condi clear for themselves and teammates in the game? Check (oh bye bye bunker guards)
- Highest uptime on protection in the game? Check (oh not too mention frost aura reduces damage by even more)
- Ability to maintain all offensive and defensive boons on themselves allowing ridiculous damage output for little to no risk. Check (say good bye burst classes.)
So please stop saying they are the jack of all trades masters of none when they are indeed the masters of all trades. I would go into engi, but that is for another post.
The defensive part is ok because they are traiting everything +utilities into defense.
The problem is one the fact that they can still do very high direct and condi dmg.
A rune like hoelbrak gives too much defensive ability (-20%condi) for a power based rune that already gives might and might duration. No wonder hoelbrak is in the top 3 most expensive runes on the trading post.
The next big question is, are there any build besides these cele builds that use hoelbrak. If you touch hoelbrak will it change builds that don’t need to be nerfed. Right now I think the issue isn’t necessarily that, the issue again is Anet OVERBUFFED certain classes, and is afraid to bring them back in line.
Except when you have 65% plus access to protection and arguably the best condition-removal in the game, that weak defense isn’t exactly correct. So if we’re talking about investing everything else into sustain, can you name any other profession that can do it just as well if not better when investing as much?
edit: Again to bring up a prime example would be bunker Guardian. It had decent sustain and superb support with investing as much into self-sustain as elementalists do. That was it. It had very little in the department of CC/Mobility/Burst/Condition dmg. That’s how it should be.
My issue with what is going on with celestial/ele/engi is this.
Elementalists are traited HEAVILY into boon duration uptime and condition removal (that’s great good for them!).
They take the might stacking runes (hoelbrak), now they have great condi clear on top of reduced condi duration (well now most condi classes can’t face them).
Then they have the HIGHEST absolute highest protection uptime in this game, which is easily reapplied over, and over, and over. This eliminates any direct damage class that can’t boon strip, and greatly hinders the direct damage classes that can boon strip because of how quickly protection is reapplied through, auras, armor of earth, earth attunement ETC.
They have very high fury/might uptime between attunement swapping and fire field blasting this gives them the same offensive stats as a player using a berserkers amulet and they still are very hard to kill because of their investment into condi removal and boon duration.
They never have to worry about managing their heals. Yes the signet of restoration was garbage in PvP before, but now to reset a fight all an ele has to do is RTL (or Fiery rush+whirlwind away) then spam lightning AA for 5 seconds and then they can come back in, if you capped the point in the time they were gone it’s no skin off their nose because they have enough CC to at least get the point decapped again.
So the problem with at least D/D Cele Ele right now isn’t that they are a jack of all trades, they are masters of all trades.
- Highest uptime on most damage condition in the game? Check
- Highest condi clear for themselves and teammates in the game? Check (oh bye bye bunker guards)
- Highest uptime on protection in the game? Check (oh not too mention frost aura reduces damage by even more)
- Ability to maintain all offensive and defensive boons on themselves allowing ridiculous damage output for little to no risk. Check (say good bye burst classes.)
So please stop saying they are the jack of all trades masters of none when they are indeed the masters of all trades. I would go into engi, but that is for another post.
Definitely helps against a lot of thieves too, as they tend to attack in rapid succession, making a strung out Diversion pretty effective. Not going to help against every Thief, but a whole bunch of them blow themselves up when interrupted. I’d say Masterful Reflection is another oft overlooked trait as well, that can actually help a whole lot in PvP.
Masterful reflection is my favorite trait (outside of iPersona/DE of course). Nothing better than having a LB rapid fire ranger blow himself up. Then hate whisper you for playing something cheesy.
COE p1. I rage quit at the last subject alpha fight when the two unload thieves were skirting around eating the dragon’s tooth attack. And I never ever ragequit. :/
I’ve been playing for a long time, just extremely casually though, and until recently I have finally taken a larger interest in the PvP scene, but after going from wolf to dragon and getting like 2k matches played in the past while I have just finally noticed how poorly balanced this game really is.
It’s much easier landing burst and maintaining good sustain as a Ranger, but Mesmer has an easier time misdirecting people when the going gets tough. Although, much of that misdirection (and survivability) involves stealth and a short invulnerability, which prevents them from capping a point so it requires careful planning, whereas a Ranger can just activate Signet of Stone and ignore direct damage for 6 seconds whilst still capping a point, so it’s contextual.
It does seem strange to want to know which one of these classes are the easiest to play when they both occupy middle of the road territory in mid-high level sPvP because other classes have builds that are both easier to play whilst also be far more viable in this game mode.
Tends to be a fairly common response from those who don’t know what else to say.
As for the OP: this isn’t a thief thing. It is about anyone who uses stealth. The question is whether channeled skills should still hit anyone in stealth. My opinion is no.
Instead of stealth against the pew pew ranger… why not blind spam him? Or head shot him? If you have enough initiative for a BP/HS combo… you have enough for a head shot or two.
You forgot the most insulting of all, when Shattered Strength was buffed up to give 3 might per clone shattered and was nerfed back down to 1 within 24 hours with devs going to the pvp forums to beg for forgiveness for buffing this.
Man what is with all these people suddenly thinking mesmer is easy mode… I just had a power necro, a condi engi, an S/D Thief and, a D/D ele tell me mesmer was easymode, autowin OP….
I
can’t
even.
Don’t look for logic or reasonable arguments from the “gud” players.
Need to add to the list Pistol/ Shield Engi and a Condi s/d+SB ranger… All called shatter mesmer cheesy easy mode.
How about d/p thief getting killed by shatter mesmer and whispering “Mesmer op”?
Haven’t had that one yet. However for all the people here screaming Mesmer is easy mode and OP it must be why it is taken on nearly EVERY SINGLE COMPETITIVE team. But oh wait…. it’s not. You know what classes are taken on nearly every single competitive team…
Shout bow
D/d Cele ele or staff cele (once you have the basic might stacking rotation down you could play it one handed, staff is a little harder)
Shout bow warrior
Celestial engine with slick shoes.
In most cases teams double up on either the engis or the eles. Mesmers have had a harder time being in the meta than any other class for well over a year now.
Oh I also had someone tell me Mesmer was easy because Helseth plays it. And if he can do it it must be super easy
Thief is the single, undisputed, hardest class to make effective at high tier pvp. Fact.
Fixed.
If by hard you mean baiting dodges with Phantasms and then instant-cast shattering people after they don’t have anymore endurance while spamming evades and invuln as you do so is hard then it just shows how much you know.
Ranger is easier than Mesmer, but Mesmer is still pretty easy. There are harder specs in this game, specs that take real skill. Even Thief is more skill-based than Mesmer really but I guess it’s just hard to understand that just because you play a Mesmer.
LOL WUT?! Thief is harder than mes…. Then that must be why so many mesmers constantly wreck thieves no matter what the thief does…
Oh wait.
And that’s not just because I main a mesmer. There several players that don’t ever touch mesmer that know mesmer isn’t in the greatest spot…
Also thief is not harder then mes (build depending). And baiting dodges is almost impossible to do as a mesmer vs an s/d thief. Or even some ranger builds.
Man what is with all these people suddenly thinking mesmer is easy mode… I just had a power necro, a condi engi, an S/D Thief and, a D/D ele tell me mesmer was easymode, autowin OP….
I
can’t
even.
Don’t look for logic or reasonable arguments from the “gud” players.
Need to add to the list Pistol/ Shield Engi and a Condi s/d+SB ranger… All called shatter mesmer cheesy easy mode.
Man what is with all these people suddenly thinking mesmer is easy mode… I just had a power necro, a condi engi, an S/D Thief and, a D/D ele tell me mesmer was easymode, autowin OP….
Engis can place turrets on BS walls and window sills liek in khylio and melee classes get kitten hard from all directions
IF you’re going to do that then landing/jumping blinks should be able to blink in 3 dimensions (not just 2)
Ummm you can blink in 3 dimensions… Have you not seen all the ridiculous places a mesmer can phase retreat to? oh wait mesmer isn’t really in the meta. Nvm carry on.
But then you look at classes who’s access to vigor was gutted (mesmer cough cough) and they are forced to take energy just to try and keep up with other classes….
So I have been picking my mesmer up alot more lately over the last few weeks. One thing I am noticing in most shatter builds lately, is they give up mental torment for halting strike. Is the damage from halting strike that much better now? What are the average numbers that people are seeing on a halting strike lately.
It has Been mentioned before however if you think of all shatter skills being say blast finishers then we are going to turn into one of the best classed for stacking/blasting fields. A 4 clone shatter would turn into 12 stacks of might on a fire field on top of shattered strength.
Well Revenents are getting 3 blasts on one weapon skill on the same weapon that can create a fire field so…
Well hopefully the revenant gets toned down before its released. Otherwise sPvP is going to turn into 5v5 all revenant teams… And that won’t be boring to watch at all.
It has Been mentioned before however if you think of all shatter skills being say blast finishers then we are going to turn into one of the best classed for stacking/blasting fields. A 4 clone shatter would turn into 12 stacks of might on a fire field on top of shattered strength.
Mesmer will always be viable in pvp due to portal, and our ability to boon rip on multiple targets.
Right now it is the least played class because imo it is the hardest class to master. There are so many spots in maps where mes can PR to get an advantage. And also the perfect shatter combo results in playing a concerto that would make Mozart blush.
And people prolly just think "Why go through all that when I can play engi and “slick shoes+nades win”
Shoutbow is just as easy as Medi-guard or D/D ele in all honesty. I guess the guy forgot to include that or is too stupid to include d/d ele and medi guard.
Harsh….. if op is new I doubt he would be able to play dd ele and he would probably melt as a medi guard. Warrior is pretty forgiving for a new player.
Medi guard game play breakdown for new players
.. In trouble?Press the six key…
In trouble again? Press the 7 key…
Still in trouble? Press the 8 key….
REALLY IN TROUBLE?! Press the 9 key…
In so much trouble you need an “Oh S**t” button?! Press 0…. Profit?
Shoutbow is just as easy as Medi-guard or D/D ele in all honesty. I guess the guy forgot to include that or is too stupid to include d/d ele and medi guard.
Shhhhh All the pro teams will hear you bagging on their builds.
In PVE: Ele is the second most sought after in dungeons with warriors being 1st and guardians/mesmers tying for 3rd.
In PvP: Ele is freaking broken. D/d cele 0/0/2/6/6 roll face from left to right…. profit? It is down right the meta right now. D/D celestial ele along with Celestial rifle engis and Celestial shoutbow warriors.
Buy a naga or Logitech g600 and don’t worry bout keybinds.
This is what I did. I honestly was a keyboard turner for the first year of playing this game and used my number pad for skills (it was bad trust me). Using an MMO mouse helps a great deal especiall since this game doesn’t have as many skills on the bar as other mmos.
I am asking, pleading, begging you Devs to stand your ground once more.
Do not give in! Let us not reduce further the build diversity in this game; let us send a clear, definitive message to the Vocal minority, the message being : Learn To Play.
They need to learn how to adapt to the ever changing environment, they need to learn how to change: tactics, playstyle and even profession if necessary.
Less nerfing and more buffing pls, many builds make the game fun as people can try and play different things, few builds make the game boring and stagnant.
Let us all remember that : creativity, adaptability, humbleness are what divide the good from the bad.
Cheers
Competitive Pvp is kitten so they might as well keep it to retain the pvers.
I feel like revenant will need to be hotfixed as soon as it is introduced. That is part of why thieves used to be so broken, some skills used too little initiative while giving the thief way too much reward. I get the feeling energy will be kind of the same.
Also who’s excited for being able to use a healing skill twice in a row!
I agree with Josre on this one. The might nerf was unnecessary. Celestial amulet needs gutted.
I wish people would stop using this word. :P
It doesn’t need gutted. It needs trimmed back. Sledge hammer to builds only reduced diversity, that’s no fun. (I don’t play any celest builds)
The might nerf was anets version of a trim. It clearly didn’t work. So I am hoping when Anet finally guts it. They will actually do what you call trim it. Because Anet has been treating engis, eles, and warriors like their own special little snowflakes for well over a year now.
