Guild Wars 2

i think the problem as we all know is stealth
ppl dont know or have hard time to learn how to deal with it while ppl who learn the thief mechanism getting better in the game
anet fail to realize that the thief class getting more and more hard to play which cause to only the good and great player stay and play it but the mediocre and new player will stay away from it but the result will be the same as good thief will still be hard opponents to kill or even annoying one which result in more QQ from the community

as you said SA line will pretty much got nerfed but is still viable with 1 more seconds stealth, health regen, condition clear, blind and stealth.
thus i think as you said we should be pushed to be more out of stealth if anet and the community wants us too. and this is done by buffing us outside of stealth like
1. protection for 2 seconds while getting out of stealth (like PU mesmer) (or aegis but maybe OP )
2. condition clear when we go in and when we go OUT of stealth
3. 3 seconds more % dmg when we out of stealth

and agree to all the other thing you’ve said regarding s/d will be spammable and maybe still good in 1v1 but not in group fight
d/p need more love on controlling you enemy with #4+#5
and p/p need more AA dmg and maybe skill stealth/evade option

they buff a bit the d/d and p/p with more ini regen but still with no defenses other than 3 utilities with huge cd so after i burn them i have to run to restart the fight
more hard time to kill ele and guardian

and for the ppl who said there is no place for thief in a group
here is movie demonstrate few things and also try to advertise the p/p thief in group fight

1. huge burst dmg frontline with dagger storm – better than any other profession – 3-5k dmg to 5-15 enemies also bleed and cripple =omg!. warrior as u see do 1-2k dmg but can stay longer
2. fast backline finisher better than any other profession – search for necros and eles
3. aoe dmg with just 1 unload and ricochet – 4-7k so triple it with 3 unlouads…= nice!
4. and think of SB with clusterbomb – 3-5k aoe dmg

we can spam fast burst which can do 10-20k dmg and get the hell out to regen while other profession can stay in the fight but do less dmg so basically the dps of the thief > or = the Sdps of the heavies.
this is the tactics of any other group fight. the heavies are the Infantry (jar head) the back line is the Artillery and we thieves are the Special Forces

you can do this also with d/d
so basically know you limits and learn to play
but still groups will want 1-2 thieves because heavy armor need to soak all the enemy burst dmg for the backline to burst on them = this is the game

Qaelyn.7612:

Very interesting build, different from what I’ve seen before. Thanks!

Would you be willing to do me a favor and explain what sorts of attack sequences you use, when you use key skills etc? This is what I have a lot of troubler with as a newbie.. I spec out a new build, and then I get out there and have no idea what to do. Anything, even brief, would be useful.

hey
p/d builds

beginner- 0,0,30,20,20
mediocre – 15,0,30,15,10 = add poison and weakness conditions to cover your bleed and torment
hardcore – 20,0,30,0,20 or 20,0,30,20,0 = venom cd trait and might on venom but less mobility
extreme – 30,0,30,10,0 or 30,0,30,0,10 = 1 more venom tick (or immobilize for 4 seconds ) but less initiative and mobility and hits hard with 2 venom

the harder the build more cnd and stealth needed
try to get to 2k condition dmg with sigile of corruption off hand

here are some useful combos

1. cnd+steal→sneak attack=> 5 bleed stacks
2. cnd+steal→dodge (calatrops)→sneak attack => 8 beeld stacks+cripple
3. cnd+dodge+dodge+sneak attack => 11-12 bleed stacks cripple
4. cnddodge+sneak attack+shadow strike+steal+shadow strike=>7-8 bleeds+cripple +4-7 torment stacks – i use it after my target is 50% hp or lower to finish

cnd+dodge your enemy wont know where you end the dodge

try to use venom after 2-3 sneak attack to let your enemy uses his conditions clear so the venom will tick longer
try active the venom while in stealth so he wont see it on your name plate

sometimes dont go for sneak attack and use another cnd to confuse your enemy and let him use dodge to be easy pick

i love the combo of cnd+dodge on my face of my enemy as he dont know which way i dodge and he usually stand 2-3 seconds in the calatrops ending with 3-4 bleed stacks and cripple

learn to use withdraw forward → left mouse key+turn camera 180 and withdraw and turn back camera with right mouse key= use bind key

i use it on my power necro and it does real good aoe dmg and nice condition with staff is always nice add

i didnt see you using it but consider it but guessing you know it

when stealing from a ranger use it and use unload to get healed

always in 1vx i look for the thief and ranger as they are the best still in 1vx

laggy for me too

you dmg is bit low while i am doing 1-2k dmg on AA on shortbow you do 0.5k

i love my thief even in group play but it doesnt matter how you look at it, every other class can do it better than us and contribute more than us (maybe not rangers )

the only thing thief is better at is doing fast huge dmg to get down ppl
so basically i go for the backline and harvest them 1 by 1
my tactics are FIFO – first in first out like with daggerstrom+shadow step to cripple and 2-4k aoe dmg and making some confusion when my team will burst them making them using all their burst on me
or LIFO – last in first out after my team burst i jump to the backline and start harvest the necro, ele who do the aoe dmg until i get focused and jump out

i guess i am looking to be able to do more 1vx as thief which i used too with other weapon sets which cannot be done with p/p …
with p/p i have about 50% winning 1v1 (not against the builds above) as with d/d or p/d i have around 80% because of stealth which the p/p lacks

i am running 0,30,0,20,20 with valk armor and zerk trinkets with signet of malice/withdraw, roll, shadowstep, Signet of Agility/or other signet/ SR

i heard that too but never find the source and when it will happen

its really hard to take them
i also dual 1 warrior which told me i didnt do enough dmg with 3500 base attack and 50% base crit dmg
so the longer the fight they have the upper hands with condition
i manage once to take him down but i had 150hp
and some fights took 2-5 min so we both got bored
as mention above i like to steal and w8 for him to go for LB and use it
also i like to stay with sb till he below 50% health and when he goes s/s i wait for him to block and go d/d for BS and AA for poison and dmg

again i think the odds are against you

air for solo, fire for aoe
air does 25% more single target dmg so if you main role is to take squishy scatters target go air

and after you play wvw you’ll get tokens to buy armor and weapons and when i raid usually i ended with 2-5g (2-3 hours raid)

@shinta – explain me how you counter hgh engineer or necromaner or signet warrior or pu mesmer
so you have 3-5 dodges which when you burn them out you basically standing tree while they using simple AA attacks and you have no evades skills no stealth while all other professions do (block, fear, boons(aegis+protection) port skills etc

so you have 15 ini points which does nothing while you try to defend yourself

and pls if you quote read it as whole as it sum up what i have said . as we agree that we dont have any skills (not utility) which handle conditions, also PB cannot be spammable so only 3-5 dodge are left to help you survive

also vigor getting nerf btw…

dont get me wrong i like to play p/p (0,30,0,20,20) but its a fact that its the worst weapon with no really defense tool rather as group support. also the range is 900 while other have 1200 .
with group this weapon set imo is the best power weapon but when roaming solo or small group its a different story

simple do dodge away from your enemy and do withdraw forward to him giving you the advantage as for 1-2 seconds he wont know where you are

ideas for you to get better
1. start p/d – you’ll have better armor 3k. and you’ll learn to hit cnd right. give you range perspective of the fight and more time to react and learn your enemy moves
2. after go d/d – i started with pvt armor and zerk trinkets and after a while change to pvc armor for more crit dmg
3. play defensive – as dont try to kill 1v1 rather that prolong the fight thus learning to manage initiative, react, learn moves when to dodge etc
4. ask ppl to duel you and to learn from it – after getting stomp by healing signet warrior i asked one enemy to deal and learn and he was really helpful . still he was better than me
5. start 1v1 till you do it perfectly. than go to 1v2. and as you can see most videos out there you probably wont see 1v2 against 2 d/d ele or hgh engineer as it too difficult to fight against . so learn your limits
6. when doing 1v2 again try to prolong the fight with stealth skills cnd etc to learn your limit . i find that after 15-30 seconds 1vx my enemies start to do mistake as they used all their burst skills
yesterday i tried with p/p set to do 1v3 (kitten impossible) and failed over and over and today i manage to do it againt engineer+warrior+thief (i was lucky)
7. practice at solo camps without stealth and only dodging and again with only stealth without dodging. it will give filling when to stealth and when dodge

sum it up: there is a reason why everyone QQ on thief – because player who learn how to really play this class can take anyone and thief imo is the hardest class to master but very rewarding

after playing, reading and posting a very similar thread to the p/p rework weapon i want to summarize my thoughts on the issue (sry if missed and already been mention by other )

p/d is perfect where it is for now
how to change p/p skills without changing p/d skills set?

1. AA – all AA skills beside the p/x have 2-3 skills chain . so why not to add another chain attack which does more dmg and shorter the cast time so the main result would benefit both condition and power build
first skills put bleed with much lower dmg with activation time 0.25 (and not 0.5)
seconds skills chain will do much more dmg with activation time 0.25
and pls make the Attack speed faster as it now approximately 0.82 seconds per attack. when necro, ranger have 0.5 to put bleed on you)

so for both weapon set if you go p/d you get the condition and the dmg on the seconds chain wont do much as you low on power and for p/p the second chain would put dmg to help you not to burn you initiative on unload

2. as mention above p/p lack the survivability as other set have with evade skill #3 and most important lack any kind of stealth which thief need to stay alive. so few suggestions:

A. like ranger #3 skill Hunter’s Shot- with unload gain stealth for 2 seconds (or 3 if traited)
B. as we have black powder why not give other skills (not utility) blast finisher/leap. so like d/p so we can go on stealth but with lower duration as we attack from range
C. like ranger Point Blank Shot unload will push the foe from you and hit them enable you to keep distance from your enemy

from my experience p/p can be very great weapon set on group fight as you just play as sniper and pick your enemy 1 by 1
check my vid (inspired by Luto)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rLLUXDdFjc

but when try to roam or solo you basically have to surprise your enemy to put huge amount of unload before he has time to react or you have to run away.
you cant handle with conditions meta like x/d without stealth or when SA traited so basicly PU mesmer, condition engineer and necro and average s/s warrior can take you after few seconds as you dont have stealth on hand (only blinding powder and SR utilities with long cd) and you cant dodge forever

black powder only helps when fighting with melee class and again you regen is low regarding other classes (d/d ele, engineer, signet warrior) and you cant afford to spam it as your dmg will get nerf significantly with no ini points to spend

so basically now the p/p thief just standing or running around with no stealth no evades and being easy target with low health and armor

regarding unload dmg – i think its ok for range attack to do between 5k-8k dmg
regarding range – i think p/x set need to be 1200 range for more defense ability
regarding Body Shot – the immobilize for me is with 20% chance to hit. every slight move from my enemy and it misses (not dodge) , also the terrain and the attack speed is to slow and easy to recognize and after it hits the duration is too low (and i cant afford to spam it) so its basically act as cripple to help me be closer to my enemy but again as p/p i dont need it as if i am 900 range i dont need to be more closer. so only act as if i see my enemy going to hit run/burst skills which act more faster than my activation skill and reach so i miss.

add sigil of bloodlust for more 250 power or take other rune like centaur or orge or eagle or divinity for more dmg

GL

post p/p v2 after buffing my thief with healing abilities with signet of malice+assassin reward+sigil of blood and omnoberry ghost it was so fun to play and funny

AA gives 400-1200 healing
Unload gives 1800-3600 healing

but dont try solo with it

after few minutes you get used to withdraw movement and evade forward easily and cnd and dodge to apply easy +2 stacks of torment, cripple and bleed from caltrops and if i steal i put poison and weakness → 5 conditions

from my exp its ok

i run with 100% condition duration and it last for 10 seconds just the tool tip says 7 seconds and not take into consideration the 45% plus duration

yes, but usually the fight goes on burst attack which cost initiatives and drop in some AA which cost none thus the healing is bit low per seconds
and in SA line in 30 points spend you can while in stealth 329 healing for 4 seconds which is far better healing as with this trait you only get it if you spam your initiative points

with signet of malice which give 130 on each hit it combine well (also with food and sigil which steal health ) you can get with 1 unloud (p/p set) 1500-2200 health regen

but still i think it should be buff as our vigor drop down and i dont want to be pushed to spend 30 points in SA for passive regeneration

i think for mesmer perplexity rune is far better than torment rune as torment block is passive skill so only the sigil is good which give 1-2 stacks

so funny video vince as it seems the thief fighting against dummy target which never hit back and just stand
perplexity does only 3 stacks for 5 seconds so 500-600 dmg maybe as you dont have interupt ability you wont have the #6 to do significant dmg as torment rune does as duration will be 45% longer which can take with 40% food to almost 10 seconds dmg which is far higher

and i heard finally anet will nerf the #6 ability on the rune…?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/video-My-thief-in-some-wvw-action/first#post3216243

check this and other thread

perplexity wont do u any good but only 3 stack of confusions but some ppl still like them

yes it make the d/p as defense weapon set to escape when utilities on cd

Jory.9172:

That’s the point of the skill OP. There are many skills that immobilize, cripple, and chill. Learn to play dude and QQ. Why is this in the Thief forum anyways?

+1 i guess all QQ come down to thieves forum

if only ppl start to learn that if enemy run away consider it a win – that’s life

and pls nerf the alt+f4 skill as sometime i see ppl using it and going stealth for ages – too OP

add new vid with p/p weapon set and put the build i am using

thanks to Luto for reminded me the p/p set

got to say you brought me to test again the p/p
i will post a video from yesterday wvw group play

GG

hello,

has anyone use this trait?
is it viable in its current state?
should it be buff ?

this trait gives you 69-79 healing per initiative spent which can reach if you have 15 ini points to 1,110 healing in about 3 seconds (average high ini skills spam use). so about 370-400 health per seconds
this is theoretical as it leaves you with no ini points and as for now every hit thief take does more dmg than 400 dps

lets compare it to the ele (d/d) with his water healing skills he can do about 400 health per seconds (dodging (traited), regeneration, cone of cold and cleansing wave).

mmm…. seem the same but with few main differences

1. thief remain useless after burning all initiatives while ele still can attack
2. ele have few more utilities to protect him while thief can only disengage and run away
3. thief must stay aggressive to benefit the healing while ele dont
4. thief must save initiative points as some of his defenses are with evade and jump away (like SB, HS etc). so we can never burn all our initiative points

so the effective healing per seconds is much much much lower (i would guess around 100 healing per seconds)

do you think if anet buff this trait from 70 to 200 will it be useful or still ppl wont use it
also consider the vigor nerf so should anet buff up some of our health regen abilities?

i agree a thief must has the control on his actions and cannot stand in random reaction
like some traits anet gave us which we would have never use (Hard to Catch,Instinctual Response,Last Refuge)
but again if the ini regen is buff to +33% so i want to think in short time we will get used to it and know how to control our skill actions like we have done so far

if not i am sure the thieves community will shout loud enough for anet to change/buff it or we all reroll other class or other game

as for now its really hard to play thief compare to other classes especially in group fight where you contribute almost nothing

i really dont know why thieves compare themselves to warriors and more correctly the healing signet warrior
sure the warrior play style design is to put more sustain dps than the thief which has higher dps . so that is why warrior built to stay in the fight longer with higher armor and health pool while thief must go stealth or shadow step away to reset themselves.

i really dont know how the initiative change will impact my burst and skill use but from what i read anet want to buff it- so i can only hope that if they’ll see they were wrong they would change it ASAP .

my main concern is the vigor nerf
my play style wasnt built for perma stealth so my main defense were dodge/evades as much as possible . now i know s/d thieves took it to extreme so why they nerf the vigor for all weapon set
anet forget that although Vigorous Recovery has for now is 8 (after nerf 6) seconds every 15 seconds and Bountiful Theft is for 18 seconds (after nerf 14) (+%boon) for every 30 seconds . thus only build which combine both can get perma vigor and after the change it will be close to perma (maybe 2 seconds less). but what about build that dont combine both trait lines.
every class has its unique build which is hard to counter but now thief has none

lets remember what are the way to negate damage and which class has them
1. evade skill – ranger, thief, mesmer, even ele (1 skills)
2. dodge (vigor) – all classes beside necro
3. block skills – guardian, warrior, ranger, mesmer and even ele (1 utility) and engineer
4. aegis – guardian, mesmer, warrior, engineer
5. blind – all classes
6. invulnerable – ele, mesmer, engineer, warrior, ranger (traited) (and thief only in pve steal skill)
7. protection – guardian, ele, engineer, ranger, mesmer, even necro

as all of you see our name hardly mention
only evade and dodge are our main dmg negator (stealth may confuse but you can still take dmg).
so build that want to be more evasive now cant and must be more careful and can not play offensively rather than defensively
and lets talk about immobilize stacking – really thief has nothing to do with it as only 1 utility skills can negate (as you wont take both heal and utility) it but try to stay for 3 seconds immobilize and you dead while every other class has more ways to deal with it .
my only hope is that the ini buff will pay itself with more sustain dmg dealing

TL:DR
its feel anet wants to make thieves a hit and run or a scavenger class which cant play solo as we have poor defense abilities so we must play more in group while contribute almost nothing

in wvw i think his build is 0,30,0,20,20 with Ricochet and Thrill of the Crime
in spvp 20,30,0,0,20

nice vid and great editing

spectator

thief roll should be moving fast and turning 3v3 or 2v2 to 4v3 or 3v2 and move on to harrass cap points

start with p/d and work on your cnd timing than go d/d than try s/d or s/p which work more on your awareness and enemy skill recognize and understanding

whisperbox.9187:

ive been playing condition thief for so long to know that uncatchable works only against idiots and pve (and since i dont have any sources of vigor its even more useless)

uncatchable works on every player if you dodge in their face and would give you 2 ticks of bleeds and cripple (or all the players i fought where idiots )
i usually do cnd+dodge+sneak attack which result in 7 bleed stacks +cripple which makes them easy target for another cnd or AA

i use torment instead of perplexity as 3 stack of confusion beside as cover condition does very low dmg (and i hate perplexity rrrrr…. )

i just love to see when my group does to a player 15 stacks of torment, 15 seconds chill and stun 1 after a another to death

thanks
yes from GH

basic build with d/d 0,30,30,10,0 or 10,30,30,0,0 pvc+zerk http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAoYVlYmKNHfy9E95Ex2jeuTey9woJtpdF4KA-jEyAYfBRCCIZBg+Al+KiGbNrIas6aMlLRUtQA6WAA-w

basic build with p/d 0,0,30,20,20 or 20,0,30,0,20 dire+rabid but you can use this setup http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQJAqYlYmKNHfy9E95EB3Djm0m6p4rjtTBXtKA-jUCB4iAoOg0Cgk0AZSFRjtuuIasKZER16GYeEYSBAzaA-w

basic P/P build
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQRAqa4YlYmiOHcy9E95Ex2DgmTe6pgsitTBX1KA-jUyAY/BRTQAJKQEGAqAc6rIas1sioxqrxUuER1CBYeMA-w
consider taking signet of malice for massive healing with 1 unload about 1700 health regen

agree that poison when used correctly can hinder the signet warrior but usually they have good defense against conditions build so you have to use it after they use their cleanse skills or you just waste your spider venom.
their passive heal is 800-900 per seconds so poison make it 600 per seconds so you have to do more than 4 bleed stacks to start doing any dmg to them. and your build has no defense against them so if they catch you with stun/daze its run away or die

i sometime go with d/d seconds set just for the poison AA and some death blossom fast stacks (dont spam it)
after trying chill you’ll see your overall dmg is higher as more easy cnd and sneak attack= more bleed stacks , more dodge with uncatchable = more bleed stacks and less dmg on you
try this build if you like
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQRAqY4YlYmKNnay9E95EB3Djm0n6p4rjVThMtJA-jUCBoOBkCAgWAMTqIas11TjtgJIKZER16GYeEYSBAzcA-w

condition duration :
poison – 93% 19.25s
bleeding – 85% 7.5s
torment – 90% 9.5s
chill – 60% (13.5s multiply by 3)
cripple – 60% 8s
beside fear, fire and confusion you do all the conditions

also steall 2 boons (i target the regeneration/protection) and gain vigor

male asura as you smaller you less noticeable

nice

30,0,30,0,10 build i am guessing but very dangerous one
which armor and what state you have?
i would take ice venom instead of spider as you got poison with sb or with steal and venom share with ice can do 10 seconds chill which slow your target and put longer cd on his skills as poison only stack with duration so venom share with spider is overkill

i agree that all weapon set with utilities should be able to played as direct dmg and condition dmg
even if in power dmg some conditions can stress your enemy bit more.
like S/S warrior who can land 19 stacks of bleed along with torment and good direct dmg .

thieves at the moment arent built for good hybrid as they need utilities to be defensive thus they cant take (let say) venoms solely for the conditions dmg

d/d with poison is so good not for the condition dmg as more for the -33% heal regen

nice team video and gg for the ele who soak all the dmg from you
and still the mesmers are the best counter to thieves

hi
tried to put my thief behind the enemy forces while having fun

P/D thief
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrixr4lQfvA&feature=youtu.be
P/P thief
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPrPJ6_61Bc&feature=youtu.be
P/P thief v2 (massive healing)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rLLUXDdFjc&feature=youtu.be

indeed the hammer +mace/shield with healing signet which gives them about 800-900 health regen really hard to counter also with -65% condition duration and 3500 armor. after 2 min fight you will be really bored so if you manage to survive that long just walk away .
i have tried dual some good warriors which really said that i didnt do much dmg to them with p/d with 2k condition dmg and with d/d 3600 attack and 100% crit dmg)

lately in wvw i’ve noticed to many bunker build around which came from tpvp – the spirit ranger, the healing signet warrior , the guardian, the mm necro etc. they really cant hurt you much but also hard to kill fast

again you have to use your steal ability at the right time against right enemy
against hammer warrior whirling axe probably wont be good but against longbow warrior its awesome

take 30 points in Trickery and your steal will daze

with thief class you must pay attention to your enemies, which class they are, who has higher armor, who is more dangerous and act accordingly. thus make the learning curve more slower and higher. you must know when to enter stealth, when to harass your enemy and when to strike. as you dont have many stunbreaks or high armor and health so stealth is your friend

the problem (one of them) with venom share that all the time the beginning of the fight start with empower by 2-4 guardians which give the entire group 12 stack of might.
your enemies probable will have stability plus shouts and nullfield which make all conditions gone so making your venum build unreliable and also in every restack
as Reikken said you can try 4 venom as it wasnt too bad, but was it good? i dont think so

as again its true every class can be versatile but every class has unique mechanism to work with. some are really good in supporting some just dont. (i think mesmers have the same problem of supporting in group fight as illusion die so fast )

i dont know what all the fuss about

this warrior video just let you see that warrior class is for beginners spam 1 and you can be clicker and also does very low dmg as he needs his toughness high

thieves are not op in zerg fight but have their place in wvw in other area
although with dagger storm when i shadow step into the heart of the zerg and jump out i can do 4-5k aoe dmg

i do get your points but nevertheless venom share only benefit 4 more ppl in your group thus making valuable in roaming team and not zerg fight where there you must to spec to stay alive.
by increasing power you mean like empower, increase survivability with aegis/protection → go guardian
i am agree with you that i want to see more thieves getting chosen in zerg fight but venom share wont do enough. maybe if they would give it as area share without 5 max ppl.
and venom share doesnt actually act as support rather than fast conditions burst. try to take thieves guild+ambush with venum share against 1v3 and you’ll get the point
in small scale fights its very usefull as it can turn 5v5 to 5v4 very fast with Basilisk Venom,Devourer Venom but with large scale fights it wont even get noticed

come up with more unique ideas that arent being used by other classes and are being unique to the thief class and maybe if the community will agree with your ideas eventually anet will listen to you (1 year from now …. )

dont get me wrong i am with you

that is the reason i think my suggestion is good as it has already been given to us by trait just almost never been chosen due to its randomness which really dont have a place in thief fight mechanism

@Trikki
as you see here (and almost any other thread) i am not the only one who say that thief aren’t built to be a support class

if you see venum share as support i think you are mistaken as thief need to have at least 1-2 stun breaks in wvw leaving them with 1-2 venum utilities which traited with venom share must also traited with reduce cd so again leaving you expose with low dmg/health just to give 5 more ppl 3-15 seconds immobilize/poison/torment while necro/engineer do it much much better alone…

to be more supporting the group venum share must be changed to be more useful and powerful
as regarding boon sharing again guardian/ele/mesmer/engineer do it better
and the same go for traps
so beside fast kills from smart thief i dont think you can expect this class to be supportive

also by anet “Thieves use their initiative to fuel their weapon skills, dishing out quick chains of damage before slipping away into the shadows”

if ppl would comprehend that 3 thieves can do mayham in 1 border by taking camps/dollies/ tag gates /eliminate roaming ppl fast and clean thus making the enemy to choose whether to split its forces to retake camps , to check if tower is being zerg etc – this is the kind of support thieves bring to the server

@Clumsy – you were talking pve oh… i talked in wvw when you almost cannot take full zerk and 50% base crit chance and 70%-85% with buff and traits and attack almost 3500 in average but against 3k armor average (meta condition has high armor in wvw) havent seen those numbers
in pve its different story

Sir Vincent III.1286:

That’s too much calculations for such a simply skill. Nothing’s wrong with the current steal, Anet just need to improve the quality of item we’ve stolen.

yes to the first part no to the last part
the item stolen is so good when using them in the right time against the right target
Bone Crack – stun pls yes
Consume Plasma – gain all boon – hell yea
Ice Shard Stab – 2-3k dmg and chill which slower cd and movement – omg
Mace Head Crack – daze mmm…yummy
Skull Fear – just op
Throw Gunk – random condition and ethereal combo field which can do confusion
Whirling Axe – just love it with 6-8k dmg while reflect
Blinding Tuft – life saver and life taker

i can see why only F1 is bit boring while other have f1-f4 abilities so if we want f2-f4 we need to KIS – keep it simple

f2 – Last Refuge – remove from trait and make it actively useable
f3 – Hard to Catch – remove from trait and make it actively useable
f4- Instinctual Response – remove from tait and make it actively useable

those trait are hardly useful or valuable as they tend to mess up our timing while popup in the wrong time
and instead of the traits above we can get more group sharing boons or venoms trait or p/p trait etc