i would also change the food for 40% condition duration
and i think you’ll have hard time against d/d ele and warrior healing signet stunlock
your last vid makes me laugh….
question: do you think 30 points in SA is a must and does the Shadow’s Rejuvenation really needed? if not what do you think about 20,0,20,15,15 build?
which gives more power, cd on venoms, more conditions to cover the bleed and torment and you dont lose the perma dodges (almost)
go full carrion or mix it with dire/rabid jewels.
precision by itself doesnt give much for condition but power will give you more direct dmg
if you running wvw take food to prolong the condition duration to 40% take sigil with 10% bleed duration and you’re fine which leave you space to invest in runes that give you speed, condition dmg, torment, perplexity, etc…
i think even if you running condition dmg, power also putsmore pressure .
condition tick in average 100 per seconds per stack (in bleeding for exp) so 300 more direct dmg from carrion grear is compare to 3 stacks of bleeding
so ye toughness would give you more space for error but will yield much less dmg over time and against builds that counter conditions it would take you much longer time to fight
so i dont think you should dismiss carrion gear (rabid more suitable for mesmer for exp as they cause bleed when crit)
You aren’t going to like it as much. The whole point of using centaur runes with withdrawal is to get close to permaswiftness. Without the centaur runes, I wouldn’t use withdrawal especially if you rune 30 in SA.
its really depends in your game style
withdrawal gives you health every 15 seconds instead of 30 seconds. so overall health is higher. and also its cures immobilized chill and cripple which are the most dangerous conditions on thieves and also uses as another dodge
so if you are good cnd user you really dont need another stealth ability
love your game play and style though sometime if i miss cnd in 1vX i am doomed
why you dont use shadow strike at all after using venom as it will give you 5 stacks
i like the s/p duel in the movie
and what do you think about 20,0,30,20,0 build which give more power and shorter cd on venom?
(edited by messiah.1908)
i know it hard to fight d/p but from my experience i go further enough and count 4-5 seconds and stay away from the bp area and dodge thus he has 2 option. 1 to attack with hs again and got revealed or use another bp chain and the chance he wont have enough initiatives
if you "d"off hand look for npc to attack for stealth after 5 seconds so you’ll have the upper hand on stealth
fast targeting with key assign is much helpful as you can do fast steal+cnd+bs
i play p/d and have about 70% win against d/p (most of the time they run). the losses were mostly in 1v1 prepare fight thus they got me with steal venom bp hs bs, but in open area fight its another story.
the key is i put pressure on him so he must stealth to clear conditions thus he lose initiative points and cant hit hard, i dodge with caltrops which slower him down
and i know this fight will take time so i try to be patient
if i miss cnd i know he has got the upper hand so i try to keep distance from his bp area but if i land it i’ll probably gonna win
even with average 8-13 stacks the warrior just cleans them or dont attack for 3 seconds
so conditions against these build wont work or at least after long long fight
imo after 5 min fight or both of u are good or build to much defensively (like dd ele)
its depends on your game style
if you running with group/zerg then you’ll need more toughness and vitality=dire
if you roaming alone than you’ll need more power with the condition dmg= carrion
or rabid+carrion if you go for hybrid builds
with only dire full set you’ll do great condition dmg but will be hard to take down the warriors/rangers/eles/guardian with the -65% condition duration and signet warrior (or at least long fights) so you’ll need more power with the a risk of toughness so be good with landing the cnd
i think dire is best when supporting
GL
i am running in wvw 20,20,0,0,30 axe/focus +staff main dmg is from DS
using well on the enemy group get into DS and all dmg is crit
good armor 2750, power 3100 crit chance 50%, crit dmg 70% (with food)
this build for group play but can take some average players 1v1 (change utilities for 1v1)
yes i guess more direct dmg than stun/daze
another fellow thief with d/p try him and got killed so i guess we both bad or this warrior good
for thieves if we miss our cnd 2 time we basically doomed to die
after several time i manage to put him on 500 hp while i was 100 hp but got hit
so back to the draft table…
ok i found warrior i couldnt beat
we dual 4 times and i only manage to put him on 50% hp
he run 3400 toughness, -65% condition duration 21k hp mace/shield and greatsword
this fight was very long or very short depend if i manage to dodge/stunbreak his 3 seconds stun/daze
his only complaint was i was hard to catch) but bleed and confusion and torment wasnt last too long to impact enough
and also fought another warrior running something similar and only manage to get him run away and restart the fight….
any suggestion how to bit it?
(edited by messiah.1908)
after fighting this month solo i can say that the average confusion stacks on me was 8
even with 2 thieves roaming against 2 mesmer, necro, 2 warrior all with perplexity runes i had 13 stacks max and my other thief fellow had 8 stacks
i manage to take down 1 mesemer warrior b4 i got down by being focus by all and the other thief took them down later.
now mesmer with no runes can put on you 13 stacks with scepter/focus
so why is that op?
its not the runes i defending its the versatility of the game
first anet nerf the confusion dmg in pvp/wvw than suddenly all the glamour mesmer disappear . so anet change the meta builds to condition and add the torment dmg and the runes. than condition engineer took advantage of it and now everyone using it even warriors
its funny that before the perplexity rune, if u run confusion build on your mesmer you’ve been called noob … but now when every one can stack 13 confusion everyone want it
perplexity rune are not op especially if everyone else using them so it ends up with being a better skills player than your enemy.
its fun video but again and as stated b4- necro who doesnt transfer condition?! and warrior who just spam skills even with 1 stack of confusion you could kill them (will be boring fight but doable)
the only nerf, if at all, is cd for 5 seconds on #6 rune ability thus make you think before you spam your interrupt skills and any good player will never spam and w8 for the right moment to interrupt so on the hands of skilled player this rune will be still valuable
but its fun to take down HS spamming thief when he got 8 -13 stacks of confusion – just punish the spammer!
another short fun video against perplexity thief and mesmer
you ment d/p not p/d
ok changes as long you can save you initiatives and again be careful with conditions as you got no removal (like when stealth)
i think too pistol off hand are the hardest to master
as d/p you need to be patient and w8 for the right moment to burst and save initiative points or you die
as s/p again time right the pistol whip and infiltrator strike is your evade skill with no stealth on hand
as p/p no stealth and medium burst
ha ha just love it
i think against those players you didnt need the off hand weapon as well)
nice
i would change to s/p for more abilities as you got offhand dagger thus pistol off hand gives you daze and BP aoe
i dont agree with nerfing the thief skills
as for now i dont think there are thieves who shown on video their mistakes but only their success thus ppl think and yell OP nerf….
instead of ppl learn how to counter D/P they want to nerf it. i see many good players kill D/P build and even p/d taking down d/p . i also see lots of ppl not dodging, bursting in one place and just welcome the d/p to backstab freely
i think what should be done is to make more skill range useful in thief skill line so you can see more versatile in game play and not too many d/p . example like the s/p after the new patch which become slightly more popular (but still hard to play by average thieves) and the p/d torment etc
still i do also hate to see HS spamming even when i dodge and get killed by lucky hit of 6k when i manage to put the d/p on 2k health…:(
nice funny vid
but all you see is player who doesnt dodge and standing and not aware their surrounding
i am too got hit by 8-9k spike backstab thieves but that’s life
and also i am doing 15k burst dmg with torment+confusion+pistol whip if i catch BS thief
so its not OP as you can see low hp low armor so its high reward/higher risk build
Dduff liked this build thnks for sharing it And Can you make a similar stun /daze build to suit Pve/Wvw purpose and a vid also of you using it in pve and wvw plz….
this build works fine in wvw also, you can go full zerker if you brave and want to roam ,change for signet of shadow between fight to be faster. hard to play 1vX.
i went for hybrid build with carrion/rabid jewels to get more condition dmg with seconds set of p/d. i basically start with p/d to soft the target and catch him with pistol whip (crit chance 45% (65%) and crit dmg 65% )
i have tested the build my self and even took it further to hybrid dmg condition with p/d+s/p (or p/p as unload more suitable for power and not condition)
here is my opinion:
1. this build is fun to play and easy learn how to be offensive 1v1
2. this build is not easy to learn how to be defensive 1v1
3. this build is hard to fight 1vX as p/p arent meant to do so without stealth ability like d/p or d/d
4. like every thief build you have to adapt the play style according to your opponents ie against melee, condition, clones, aoe dmg etc. if you get wrong your chances to win dropping down fast…
5. i dont think perplexity rune for thieves are op (for engineer yes). the average stacks i manage to pull was 8 so about 1k dmg per skill use. against new player i manage to put 18 stacks but that was because they just stand and spam skills like crazy. so yes you have to time your skills use right against average player to get him interrupt
6. i do think they should put short cd on #6 ability in the rune to make ppl to think b4 they spam #4
7. confusion is condition thus build that negate condition can shut down this build. like warrior necromancer guardian with -60% condition duration so 10 seconds become 4 seconds so maybe 2k dmg average which is not op
for spammer this build is boring like the HS users (with the lucky strike who put you down )
i had hard time against d/p myself with all the stealth and won 40% of the time just because i enable to caught him with pistol whip but every time i confused him he just stealth and cleanse
against mesmer who pulled 13 stack of confusion on me why isnt op? again it isnt its just the game you have to adapt
gg for the build , adapt play style
why the few ppl who can handle thieves always shout “op” “noob”?!
at the current state thieves are no op . maybe some player are
learn the game and get better and have fun while doing so that’s the all point!
So this build specializes in what? Group fight?, i am assuming since thats all there was if i am correct??
although the video shows group fight u can see some 1v1 burst play style
i am still testing it and can take 1v1 but 1v2 or more is too hard at least for me with this build without the stealth on demand
against perpexlity engin won 4:1 if he caught you in his area with stun you are gone in seconds with all the conditions
against mesmer, ele, warrior ,guardian also won but most fight they just run
against necro and ranger really easy
with group fight the back line will use conditions cleanse at the burst so you got 10-20 seconds to hit hard after the burst. as you can see thieves come from the back or sides and not with the front line thus you can achieve 5k dmg (ele can cleanse easily)
this build is really hard to play as most s/p build compare to other builds like d/p
if u miss or getting target by few, run as you are in really bad situation.
i dont think perpexlity rune are op , i think ppl should know how to play against them
as for now ppl got used to spam skills and now confusion makes them think twice before spamming
i fought 3 times against confusion engin and won 3 times with s/p+p/p (or p/s)
i just time his skills and wait to catch him with pistol whip (indeed hard fight as he got me 25% hp few times)
even with 8 stacks of confusion which alone not op (as mesmer can put it on you with no runes) if ppl just spam skills like hs thieves they will die with or without the runes
i had hard time against d/p+p/p thief with his perma stealth but got him always below 25% hp when he just use shadow refuge and re-enter the fight
if the OP can put video of the p/p play style could be great
Nah, i don’t like pistol mainhand.
It’s not that you don’t like it, it’s because you’re not used to it. You enjoy your big numbers. But it’s a new meta coming around the corner. Big numbers aren’t whats gonna do it anymore. Now that dire armor is in the mix. Condition Meta thieves are going to be appearing much more frequently.
i agree ,
condition starting to take their place too, look what they did to the necro, engin
and they add the torment and confusion also thus making it more viable to use by other professions.
after playing d/d, d/p, s/d dmg dealer i want to tryout the condition mode
the p/d with torment do wonder with 9-11 stacks of torment which does 15k-20k dmg alone (why ppl havent scream op yet and pls dont)
but with confusion all shout because engin broke it
i like the idea of p/p and as you saw took it further with s/p+p/p
i know some ppl will say hybrid build are meh and as you said condition might be suck
its depends on your playstyle
the video shows the dmg done and the playstyle in group in several situation burst
1v1, 1v5, 3v1 etc
after playing all the thieves build and mainly in wvw which zerker are not so common in group or solo fight , the condition combined with power are very good as they put a lot of pressure on your enemy .
you start with condition softness so he think you condition base but than you attack with power so u basicly can adapt to any situation
full zerk build will do maybe more 2k dmg if he hits in melee
but i can do 5k with condition from afar so basicly its better
again playstyle …
here a short video i made of the build
I like the concept of the build. But are you aware that most smart people don’t stay in the Pistol Whip. The pistol whip puts you in a vulnerable position. While yes you do have the evades you’re rooted to that one spot. With P/P you have a bit more freedom. P/D- D/P for your kind of build are the sets you’d want to use. But you would be heavily dependent on initiative.
thanks,
i also try p/p with s/p and i think sometime its better but dagger off hand gives you stealth which u need in some cases.
i dont like d/p and have played it alot
i dont spam pistol whip until i am sure i can catch my enemy off guard . so i try to soften him a bit with p/p or p/d with bleed and torment and 3 stack of confusion which can put him on 50% hp . so he have to be very carefull as torment does double dmg and confusion does dmg when u use skill or dodge (as u see the dmg form condition is medium so its more about the pressure with the direct dmg)
than they usually try to heal then i steal to daze or infiltrator strike to immobilized and pistol whip to death so if he got stun break he will take 2k dmg and still be in defense mode so i can just auto attack with sword or pistol or again pistol whip if he close
after testing my p/d torment build i want to make new thief which benefit the new perplexity runes
i saw the p/p build and want to make better one which does
better direct dmg
stun lock
condition pressure
as i played also s/p i try to play with this idea and combined them
so this is my build – pls comments
tested it in wvw
i start with p/d to soft my enemy with bleed and torment and switch to s/p to stun luck when they try to heal or use skill to burst me which put in average 8-13 stacks of confusion
when the enemy see the bleed torment confusion and good direct dmg with pistol whip their only answer is to run
dmg calculation
confusion – 1160-1900 per skills use (with 8-13 stacks)
torment – 4000 (with 3 stacks)
pistol whip – 5000-6000
auto attack with sword – 600-2000
auto attack with pistol – 400-600
defense mode with infiltrator strike , shadow refuge, many dodges, and shadow strike
so… not so many so have to play very carefully
with roaming group this build is very good
sometimes i could put 25 stacks of confusion which is funny to watch
on the minmap i cant see blue dots only if i zoom out