Guild Wars 2

leeching venom doesnt stack also only 1 venom skills will proc it

and i didnt fully understand your question

the whole basic of venom share usually group dont see is that if time it right you can take down very fast ppl
lets say in wvw (from which i came) 20 guildies V 30 enemies
my guildies have me with venom share. i use basilisk, spider, skale and devourer
i group with range class like necros as they tend to spread out the venom on 5 ppl and not stack them. and i wont attack only after them
if time it right the result would be as followed:
in head to head clash we will perma stun 3-5 front line enemies, than immobilized them up for 10-15 seconds each with torment and poison so they are basically getting down fast
so now seconds round is 20v25 and than i use my skills and take down backline at easy alone or other guildy see me gank some backline and finish him fast
so in third round my venom will be up again 20v24

its not bugged. you cannot double stack so you have to use them first then activate them again

the might will stacks and with noble rune its should be awesome with plus 40% might duration and 3 more from healing skill
i usually have 10-12 stack during fight for 20 seconds (with cnd) so to be able to get 15 stacks with +165 condition dmg is nice also (its add about ~2k dmg in 5 seconds)
but my group and i need swiftness also and i tend to get might also from my group

i think the average recharge is the same as with 20% chance to recharge venom is the same 36 seconds. its really depends on your game style preference. do you feel lucky or do you prefer assurance . if you lucky you can burst down very very fast any opponents. but if you dont he might get away. and with venom share+thieves guild is already overkill
in the mist i try it and got an average 25% chance on recharge so every 4th steal my venom recharge. so i prefered the 20% cd trait then as i dont tend to use all venom at once and depend on the situation. so suddenly see all venom charge can mess me up my rhythm (but this is me)

this is all the healing skills classes get

Water Spirit: Spirit. Summon a water spirit that grants nearby allies a chance to heal when attacking. Aqua Surge: Heal yourself and cause your water spirit to heal nearby allies. – ranger supporter
Signet of Vampirism: Signet Passive: Siphon life from enemies that strike you. Signet Active: Mark an enemy. Allied players will steal life from that enemy. – necro more powerful than ever solo and group play
-Signet of the Ether: Signet Passive: Heal yourself based on the number of active illusions you control. Signet Active: Heal yourself and refresh all phantasm skill recharges. mesmer getting really buffed up
-Litany of Wrath: Meditation. Heal yourself. For a brief time, you heal each time you strike an enemy, based on a percentage of damage dealt. – what?! give me that
-A.E.D.: Gadget. Activate your A.E.D., enabling the system to heal you after a brief period of time. If your health drops below 1%, you are healed for a massive amount and your A.E.D. is deactivated. Static Shock: Use your A.E.D. to stun an enemy. will be able to ever kill a engineer ?
-Arcane Brilliance: Arcane. Blast the target area, hitting foes with critical damage and healing yourself. Healing effectiveness is increased per target hit. does dmg and heal
-Skelk Venom: Venom. Your next few attacks heal you. just another useless heal
-Defiant Stance: Stance. Absorb all incoming strikes for a period of time. All incoming attacks heal you. wow another stance nice and gratz

you forgetting that you can activate b4 battle so basically you have 2 heal skills in 15 seconds

still 45 icd no matter how much its heals is too much

but we already got venom leech trait

so they want to push us to be more aggressive while giving us no defense tools

and where you got all of this info

pls link

so lets assume its not 13% and maybe 5% or even less

why the hell anet wont gives us buff so more players will play thief and the balance will restore?

are you crazy?
do you want the whole community to rise upon us
4 more skill to deal dmg – no no no
i guess you didnt get the memo which was published at Anet’s
they change our role to
Thieves use their initiative to fuel their weapon skills, dishing out far much harder quick as any other class chains of useless damage which is 80% blocked or missed, before slipping away into the shadows or their death. The other part of their speciality is stealing – each enemy has a number of items which provide stolen skills to the thief to turn the fight to their opponent favor. Their unique attribute increases their Steal Recharge Rate. and now may be called Rallybot

i just AA freely
with p/d its very very easy

pls explain how thieves got 13% (in the middle) with all the QQ around and ppl saying they are leaving this class.
also when engineer and mesmer at the far back where all i look i see mesmer and engineer (in wvw mainly)?

i wish anet would check and publish the %time ppl spend playing thieves regards other classes

i still dont understand why ppl use crit sigil when the crit chance is low

Qaelyn.7612:

I

Messiah, I looked at Balthazar, but they’re power runes and I’m not sure they really synergize that well with the build. Unless that burn is a lot better than it looks on paper. And again, I’m going to have the issue that I generally try to stay out of melee.

if you playing p/d you need cnd thus melee combat
i thought the same of you about rune of balthazar. but after doing small calculation they are better in some cases than condition runes
condition runes give 165 more dmg which give your conditions the following: bleed more 8 ticking per second, torment more 6-12 per second, poison plus 16 per second

so overall more dmg is 30 per seconds. assuming 10 seconds and 5 stacks so more 860 -1160 dmg done
while burning will do 3k-4k dmg in 4 seconds and adds up more condition to clean every 15 seconds (i use withdraw) and also gibe bit more power to your attacks.

i dont use it always just as opening strike with withdraw forward and cnd and sneak attack and middle of the fight also so if i manage to do 2 time burning its always 8k dmg = OMG !

i am always try to think out of the box and getting nice results
check my vid of my panicond build testing balthazar rune
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKvjbPTO8kc

now you see

for me mesmer are 50/50 chance to win (i also play a mesmer)
when i fight mesmer against thief i try to spread out my clones/phantasm so he must choose who to hit and i have good chance to see him
also my illusion AI will probably point the right direction by hitting him
i try to put my back attached to 1 of my illusions so if he try BS he will hit them first
if he got me by surprise he will have the upper hand that why if roaming alone i take the staff
when you dodge/blink always do this to the opposite direction of the thief movement
if he chasing you dodge backwards so always he will have to turn his camera 180 giving you more time to react

GL

read what i have said
mesmers have the ability to be 40% stealth time like thieves like no other class

stealth attack is just another skill and not mechanics
steal is just another shadow step with skills attached to it
and also mesmer have evasion
so basically according to what you wrote mesmer and thief are look alike (beside initiative and confusion). mmm…. exactly what i have said

thanks

i dont speak for the rest of the thieves out there only for myself by saying i think what irritate thieves the most is that mesmer has the ability to be stealth 30-40% up time of the fight which is like a thief (unique mechanism) and aslo able to do dmg from stealth with illusions while thief cannot
dont get me wrong i love thief and mesmer and both have unique mechanism and play style
what would you say if thieves had the ability to put 8 stacks of confusion on you (without perplexity) and ambush icd would be 10 seconds and doing dmg wouldnt revealed us

and all agree that thieves got thrown away to the far corner by anet

@Travlane

you funny while arguing and saying the exact thing i was correcting you only in terms

google SDPS and you’ll see what it means

so all ppl will be on the same page

Backstab and do (lets say) 10k dmg in 0.5 seconds so its dps is 20k . sounds WOW
but the SDPS is low and you got to be stealth, position yourself behind so lets say it takes (in average) 3 seconds. so its SDPS is now 3.3k. and if the mesmer blink away and you trying again so its takes you 8 seconds to complete BS so the SDPS is now 1.25k

this is what makes a thief good dmg dealers as they got the highest dps in the game but their SDPS is bit low

another example Bunda mention .sometimes p/d conditions can have better SDPS than BS thief as his conditions ticks even when he is not attacking

@doomdesire

pls explain why sigil of tormenting is good on dire with 8-15% crit chance? it has 3% to procs (30%*10%)

@Qaelyn
if you wanna be pioneer as me go runes of balthazar – it will give you aoe burning dmg which will be cover so 4k dmg in 5 seconds

also i think what make PU mesmer build stronger is the fact mesmer dont have to play offensive rather than defensive all the fight
why is it stronger?
as thieves when i am going stealth i must choose whether to attack and if so i have 2-3 seconds to choose the right mesme, position myself and plan my next move, or to play defensively to cleanse conditions, lure the mesmer out ,check for aegis, protection

while as mesmer all he need to do is go stealth, use his phantasms to put conditions, go staff use blink, dodge to create more clone to put conditions, use chaos armor, block for torment, veil, run back etc
he doesnt need to see where the thief is as his illusions will tell him, he has to focus on staying alive an not focusing the thief at all and let his illusion to do all his dmg

i found an example of me playing mesmer (to full pu build) against thief who surprise me (so he should had the upper hand) check from 1:20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V19orMJO94o

by doing nothing i pushed him to use SR and his hp gone 50% with 1 blocking and he backoff

also check the 2v2 fight which shown that how enemies didnt focus me as i stealthed
leaving me free to attack them

Travlane.5948:

see its comments like that …that make me laugh. nobody knows what dps is. mesmers have higher dps than thieves…. why you ask ? lol ok …..lets define DPS. D is for damage….. P is for per…..S is for second. DAMAGE PER SECOND.

just little correction

thieves have better dps (assuming power build) but mesmer have better Sdps
S for sustain

dps is calculte by damage/(activation time+ recharge time)= dps , that why thieves have the best dps in the game as they dont have recharge

however sustainable DPS refers to the ability to produce damage over a long period of time through attack chain which mesmer can do better as longer the fight thieves sdps getting lower

its not that i envy mesmer (i also play it too) i just point out the facts as i see them.

if we all agree that mesmer have the ability to be stealth 40-50% of the time correct me if i am wrong, thief also have the same ~50% stealth time if they want to attack (and not perma stealth just to run away) as x/d give you 3 sec revealed time so every 3 seconds you can go stealth for 4 seconds so 4/7 57% . sure you can go 20 seconds stealth while doing nothing as do mesmer can but the main difference is mesmer can do dmg while we cannot
after playing a mesmer imo thief and mesmer have lots of resembles
both have good vigor (mesmer better), teleport skills, stealth abilities, both good at roaming
while mesmer can do dmg from stealth thief can do better dmg out of stealth

if ambush was on 8 seconds CD all will scream thieves becomes mesmer class

venom share with full dire is not rally bot at all
just L2P issue and know you limits

check my build thread panicond

what do you mean in support?
boons sharing? – no
condition sharing – yes with venoms
doing dolly runs – yes
doing scouting – yes
hide a mesmer in tower/keep – yes
hard res with SR – yes
killing fast the backline – yes
being rally bot so support the other team -yes (kidding)

i have duel in wvw several PU mesmer as p/d with massive venom conditions
i won most of the time but here are the results:

1. the staff is so powerful defensive weapon with bleed and burning – 3 stack of bleed and burning most of the fight if i didnt kill them asap i could end up with 8-10 stacks
2. the mesmer went to stealth as soon as i did with torch and let their illusions to do the dmg
3. protection, aegis and regeneration was almost all the time
4. their tactics is not the be in stealth 30 seconds rather that in and out when needed (like we do). and run back to observe the results and reengage
5. illusionary counter is hard to notice so get prepare for 5 torment stacks
6. prestige is too powerful with blind and burning dmg as on its own but combined with scepter which lack of conditions its ok. so must to dodge after 4 seconds

so we talked after that and we agree that without the illusion that do the dmg the same tactics both classes have.
again the main different is that mesmer have clones which do all the dmg and being able to stay in stealth while we thieves cannot

compare it to ambush and thieves guild – if they didnt follow us while we in stealth and went to attack their target (like illusion) and didnt disengage i am sure so plenty QQ was on each class forum on us

why i think i won – i won in the stealth contest and put lots of pressure with conditions
so every time i saw condition i went stealth to clear it so he wouldnt stack me.

the basic 0,0,30,20,20 with bleeding only wont cut it as the mesmer will cleanse up to 2 conditions easily

why i lost – the mesmer pushed me to fight over 1:30 min so he got his stealth skills again while i was 50% hp or less

so my conclusions:
both p/d and PU mesmer have the same tactics and abilities to stealth in 2 min fights
so as mention above that the 2 classes are different with different mechanism is wrong in this case
have you ask yourself why both mesmers and thieves have the same problems. both are roamers and not group fight type (although the mesmer have staff and thieves have SB)

that’s because anet want thieves to play more aggressively

do you remember when SB had 1200 range? all thieves use clusterbomb from range and ppl QQ they cannot hit them fast so anet nerf it to 900 so basically thieves only spam it on 130 range to control area

i agree as all classes have 1200 range weapon (even warriors) so should we

i think the main issue is mesmer can go stealth while doing dmg and have 3 clones so hard to choose which to hit first and being punished with more conditions and thief just cannot
the issue who which is better depends on player level and not on stealth alone

also the basic 20,20,30,0,0 build of mesmer can give mesmer 2 stunbreak with decoy and blink, 2 condition removal with trait cleansing conflagration and have perma vigor, and regeneration, aegis and protection thus why everyone going after that PU build and know and admit its cheesy

check mesmers forum

i make it sound like necro elite skill plague

with 2 conditions cleanse on heal skill you gonna see more 0,15,30,10,15 builds and even maybe matra build with 6 potential condition clear

what i am saying is anet just gave mesmers more builds abilities for roaming

nice fight!
but he fought warrior, ranger, and staff ele so not many stun/fear to face against

change it to necro, engi, thief and you have different story

PU rocks (but cheesy)

Sanduskel.1850:

Lol. I’ve fought mesmers, and I’ve never experienced anything more than about a third of the time they are stealthed. lol nice try though!

i also have fought mesmers but against good ones who knew what they are doing they told me that they just went stealth to fully utilize the stealth uptime and leaving the illusion to do dmg

it doesnt mean that all mesmer go 30-40 stealth duration rather that looking at your actions and react with stealth to it and teleport with blink or #2 staff so basically we conclude that it is a combination of s/d+d/p thief which can evade/teleport/perma vigor and stealth when needed and they agree to that and we both laugh

hihey.1075:

I’ll also add: PU condi is getting buffed next patch, since the Chaos 25 bonus will provide more Condition Damage

and also Illusionists Celerity will be master trait so more phantasm doing dmg

anet really pushed mesmer to extreme and now in wvw we will see all running PU instead of giving them more group utilities and skills

@Travlane
i use my panicond build with full venoms utilities
30,0,30,0,10 full dire so 4 venoms gives me 8 stacks of might and 1 cnd +2 might= 10 stacks might → 350 more power
if i use thieves guild (mostly in duels) i have 4 stacks torment multiple by 3 so 12 stacks of torment
i use venom leech which steal health and do 2k dmg more (so almost like your extra 2500 dmg in 5-6 seconds)

i dont use blind and regen on stealth only remove condition on stealth

check my vidoe parts:
2:12 thief dmg on me so low i can ignore him (and he gone SR)
5:15 burst on ranger with condi clear and healing seed
7:25 burst on guardian without utilities so only mini burst
8:35 burst on ele with massive healing and conditions clear
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oH_qdwLGK8

i can try make more clips to show you 3 seconds down ppl (even 2 seconds one time but i think he was clueless) and staying with half initiatives
but this build design for group play and not solo (1v1 i do ok but 1vX push you to extreme)

also i dont try to say carrion isnt valid option just dire gives you more options to face any opponent out there (meta build or not)

HS spam is likely more 5*3=15k gap. i dont need to tell you how i hate those lucky HS (i have video of me standing behind HS spam while the thief is immobilize and he did dmg to me rrrrrrr…..)

before dire i run half carrion half rabid and manage the same so… its all end on yours gameplay

yes i stop playing PU as its too easy to win and way to easy not to lose in spvp mostly
and after patch it will be a lot more easy
in duels i find more restricted maps which dont allow PU

but i guess its mesmer time for bit more love from anet

Mordecai.6318:

You are clueless.

lets keep it clean

he is not clueless as he has the right for his own opinions

i do disagree as my sneak attack with full dire does 1500 dmg and not 400 as i got 2900 attack

i also used to run carrion but in wvw when you can be burst suddenly by 3 warrior and die instantly i prefer to go dire as now i can soak most of their dmg and run more easily (not if i perma stun). and also i run with group raids mostly where toughness is more needed

bs thieves do 5-7k dmg while in carrion its more like 10-12k
HS thieves do like 0.5-2k dmg while in carrion its more like 2-6k

mesmer can be in stealth for 30 seconds (mmm… remind you perma something?)
and evade for 6 seconds while having aegis+protection+regeneration so about more 3 seconds to use decoy again so 44 up time almost invulnerable
while his illusion doing dmg (mostly conditions)

so if the fight is 1 min (for a thief its long fight) its almost 50% up time and if the fight is 2 min its 50% up time (prestige, mass invi and veil are up again) and so on

so mesmer have 50% stealth up time while not being revealed
we thieves must play more carefully and smartly to take an average mesmer. (take phantasm first, using cnd a lot and dont miss etc

imo p/d v PU → 50% to both as who wins the stealth/illusions game
d/x v PU → thieves have the upper hand with fast burst

+1 hihey

just dont use % rather seconds. lets see how long a mesmer can be stealth by skills rotation
1.prestige – 4 seconds + blind + burning+aegis+protection+regeneration
2.decoy – 4 seconds + breakstun+aegis+protection+regeneration
3.veil – 3-6 seconds (can be used twice)+aegis+protection+regeneration
4.mass invi – 6 seconds + aegis+protection+regeneration
5.Desperate Decoy – 4 seconds +aegis+protection+regeneration
and 1 again for 4 more seconds
so total of 30 seconds uptime for stealth while getting aegis+protection+regeneration as defense and getting few offense as blind and burning

and if he use blurring so he is invuln for 3 seconds and distortion for 3 seconds more
so 36 seconds up time (after 40 decoy is up again)

so to say 50% up time its really depends how long you fight the mesmer
if you fight him 1 min so yes 50% and even more with evade (like hihey mention)

so what have we learned from that (or what have i learned from it)
mesmer can attack you for 36 seconds without being seen at all or 44 seconds with 4 seconds to catch them between their clones.

again- mesmer CAN attack you from stealth without being REVEALED!!!

while we theives dont (or wont use it) have the ability to perma stealth that long unless all our utilities are SR (16 s) BP (4 s ) HiS (4 s ) (or use combos) which dont allow you to attack unless you want to get revealed

i try to burst the mesmer first to use his utilities earlier and than try to win the stealth contest by prolonging the fight above 40-60 seconds with cnd. if i manage to do that my odds getting better but so far 50%/50% for me (i dont have utilities to stealth thus only cnd so i must not miss). if i manage to do that and if the mesmer is smart he will disengage the fight or put lots of clones just to get more skills rdy to be used, thus i usually let them run

yes me too

so far after my guildies got used to it, i think all of them welcome the new venom thief.
the frontline just fall like flee with all the stun/immobilize/conditions

again if you see 3-5 enemies immobilized you did it and did it good. after i use venom i let my party to hit and after them i hit with bow so 3 ppl get 1 more stack of immobilize for 3 seconds and 2 of them get stunned
also after the first clash i just immobilize with body shot the back line and other see an enemy standing and hit him like a truck

also as i have 1500 range with stealing they dont see me coming and dont anticipate me to hit from this range

:)
it takes practice to time it but doable and dont forget its heal skill so use it if needed.
its great against range class as they tend to stand like the ele and ranger i fought with
also nice against group like in the tower all of them with burning
i think i was struggle more with cnd. the ele at the start was always cover with burning, also the mesmer and ranger. only the warrior wasnt as he melee class

i wanted noble too but you get it from dungeon so as i dont pve i cant have those

babazhook.6805:

I use rune of scavenging and never noticed that armor issue you mention. I have never had to remove it to repair it.

check after using heal if you getting the little mark on your bar after you armor damaged
i think you wont see it

Travlane.5948:

if u kill anyone in 3 secs its upleveled :P. especially cutting your dmg in half with dire gear.

with dire gear and my build when i am burst on someone i have 2.9k attack with 10 stacks of might so same as carrion and even better as i got more thoughness

also p/d condition ignore armor so uplvled or not is not the issue. and i also kill ppl who are not uplvled in 3 seconds with 11 stacks of torment, 8 stacks of bleeding, poison which do 11k dmg in 3 seconds and while immobilize and stun i do 5-10k direct dmg and steal health from them with leech venom 2k

:)

i like mesmer class as it more like thief class just in light armor
mesmer dont really needed in group play but for their veil or null field and actually use to be roamer like thieves
so 50/50 chance to win for both side

use SB to take away illusion fast

maybe if mesmer use skills from stealth which create phantasm they should revealed that why mesmer should use his skills for you to notice him and than he can go stealth giving you 1 seconds to act , instead from just go stealth and using skills unharmed

in my p/d thief against mesmer i tend to have more than 50% win chance against pu mesmer
good mesmers i fought to practice were always put their illusion and went stealth back but if i used thieves guild with venom share and target the mesmer fast he got killed fast with 11 stack of torment, perma stun, 10 stack of bleeding, poison, weakness and vulnerability

p/d must be patient like pu mesmer that’s why is 50/50 chance
the thief has good condition removal while being stealth and has 3 more clones to cnd with so if you stack him with 5 conditions he will stay cloak with cnd twice and wont attack you

the more common builds are with carrion gear
0,0,30,20,20
20,0,30,20,0 or 20,0,30,0,20

if he had 10 stack of might and swiftness so i guess he was using 20,0,30,20,0 build

p/d is not viable in spvp as you cant get point while stealth and move slow so its more cheesy build there. but with venom share p/d thief can tide the fight very fast

i took p/d to extreme and use balthazar runes which give burning on heal which get covered by 6 more conditions when i burst. and got pm a lot by ppl how do i do that with thief

if you wanna be super dangerous try this
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYQQNAqYYlUmCNHdy0E/JFB3Djm0m6LQTxNtZ/BsC-jUCB4MJD1RQkWAkkWIj+AKTqIaslMFRjVJjIqWpETKAImGB-w

combo used right will kill 1v1 almost anything if you just play carefully
you apply burning for 5 seconds with 2k condition dmg its 4100 dmg and you got torment, poison, weakness, vulnerability, and nice power

bit similar to the panicond build i am using but 1v1 i dont need dodge or stealth as they die so fast. 1vX i try to be careful and hit cnd

take skale venom as you got poison from steal and skale venom adds 2 more conditions to cover and torments can hurts

its depends what you looking for and which fight you choose

1v1 go whatever

1vX you must go more defensively as the fight will be longer
i played also carrion but took more defensive utilities and now can play full dire with full venoms utilities which can kill 1v1 in 3 seconds and can hold against 2 BS thieves longer
in wvw when you fight zergs and cannot anticipate what can come out behind you, i prefer more toughness and control than power

and i dont like shadow refuge – this skills is in some part why the community hate us

Galsia.4102:

messiah.1908:

@galsia
tripwire you suggested has the same effect – now its kd for 3 sec which cannot move

Tripwire only works once on a single target. Using any kind of stunbreak will get you out of this.

Line of Warding stops everything from crossing that doesn’t have stability/invuln for 5 seconds. Stunbreaks that don’t teleport/apply stability will not allow you to cross the line.

i tested it in rich enemy environment (zerg) and it kd 4 ppl so it interrupted their skills while line of warding is defending skill tripwie is bit more offensive

mine was 8k once

Thanks Cuf!
i really glad to see how funny and effective when suddenly enemies drop like flies when they just cant move or perma stuned

just imagine what 5 group ppl can do when they sync their attacks

here is my video test of Panicond V2 with balthazar runes – let it burns Baby!

if you manage to start the fight with withdraw forward the burning will be covered by other conditions so it will get full duration so about 2.8k dmg every 15 seconds.
in wvw it can be 4k dmg

i tested it in spvp which is good area to test builds
i know i didnt play well and miss lots of cnd (just woke up)

also you noticed the new version of inc response trait – icd 10 seconds give vigor and fury 10 seconds

Edit:
dmg breakdown of balthazar runes: burning does 3k-4k every 15 seconds while with runes which give + 200 condition dmg or prolong the duration will yield to poison+bleeding+torment 2k-2.7k dmg buy every 36 seconds.
also burning will be the first condition which will be covered by other conditions
also you can drop one venom and take shadow step or SR etc so 1v3/4 is much easier

ok build

take all of your gear dire and take sigil of corruption instead of malice

rune of scavenging #4 is bugged and every time your armor takes dmg you need to take all your armor off and put it on again (dont know if fixed yet)

as you dont have lots of conditions to put pressure you need more defense play so maybe 0,0,30,20,20 build more suitable with more vigor uptime swiftness, conditions clearness and regen

also notices inc. response trigger every 10 seconds so maybe it would help the p/p thieves out there as you dont want to use it with x/d or other utilities which gives stealth

tried it on spvp and also trigger on inc response which also icd was lot shorter than 60 sec