Guild Wars 2

The runes gives 45% more torment duration which doesnt shown on the skill tool tip

pve use what you like
for wvw use d/p for roaming or d/d in group fight
start with 0,30,30,10,0 build

do you think other professions can do it better than us?

@youkay – if something doesnt get fixed i guess its broken. thanks anyway

i use db mainly for evades when i am short on dodges or when i am immobilized

db is evade skills which does ok dmg as evade skills compare to other set #3 and also compare to other profession evades weapon evade skills adds bleeding so you can come up with 1.5k dmg

the main problem is conditions as you got only 1 skill to cure them
so 1v1 it can be ok but 1vx against 2 enemies with condition spec you gonna have problem
so maybe take the shadow embrace trait instead of fluid strike and take sigil of force to deal more dmg to balance it

:D sometime i feel like it

Youkay.5294:

IAnd D/D is as mediocre as ever and doesn’t get fixed for ages.

why d/d is broken and why d/p is better?

when playing roamer i use the sbow first to feel my enemy like armor health pool etc.
with power build my AA deos around 1-1.5k (depends on the enemy armor) but to secure cluster bomb hit i use melee distance as the attack is very slow and dodgeable easily. my cluster bomb does 4-6k (not against uplvl) so its not OP as u got no defense if you wanna land it . after my target below 50% hp i switch to d/d or s/d to finish.
and when i get stuck in difficult situations i use #5 or #3 .
the only time i spam #2 is when fighting with a group but otherwise i save ini points

if using condition build its bit low on conditions and may be useable in group fight (but necros does it better)

so no OP imo

in wvw the only problem for me as thief as after the patch i only have 2 set to play with
p/d for condition roaming
d/d for dmg roaming or group play (i dont like d/p perma stealth)

s/p nerfed while i loved this set
s/d < d/x set
p/p still not so usable in wvw but still testing it

lately group prefer the heavies to do the blast finisher as you get 5-10 guardian+warrior in 20 man group
while using SB clusterbomb if i want it to act fast i need to be in the face of my enemies as if i hit it from afar its slow movement and basically power necro can do more aoe dmg than thief
so the only roll we have is scout which warrior with same mobility and better burst can do it so we left with solo roaming which also warrior can do it better

i wish they give a thief some group roll which benefit the group in some way beside yelling to the commander there is enemy group coming from the bridge …

thanks for your insight

so i guess all agree we dont have any roll in group fight beside roaming in wvw

after the patch and the qq regarding nerfing s/d or s/p i ask myself and you all what do you think is our roll in wvw regarding group fight and not as solo roamers
are other professions better than us or we do have a place in wvw

i am paying mostly in groups (guild in primetime)

here is short video suggesting few answers but i would like to hear your opinions

Jesiah.2457:

If I try to pull that off on thief, it won’t have 3k toughness, it certainly won’t have almost 19k health, and I also certainly can’t pull off 19 stacks of bleeding on a godkitten auto attack.

full dire set with 0,0,30,20,20 build yield 3k armor and 19k hp with 1500 base condition dmg and above 2100 condition dmg with food and corruption sigil
warrior sword aa is faster than the pistol aa but you need to be in range to hit it

p/d is mainly for roaming, 1v1 and not designed for fast zerg fights.
if you wanna be good with this set you have to be patient and know how and when to cover your bleed stacks

here is build with lots of cover conditions but needs some training to do
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAqYVlUmKNHfS5E/JFB/Bn6p4rjV/wN7UwV5D-jECBoOCi0CQk0A00gZSFRjtuuIasKZER1qbYSBAzaA-w
for starter i will go with 0,0,30,20,20 for more health regen when stealth
for more power go full carrion and build with 20,0,30,20,0

i love the torment rune and to put 9 stacks with potential 18k dmg for 10 seconds so i just troll my enemy and make him use his conditions removal skills and burst him with it (sure against warrior which use -65-98% condition duration its bit hard but doable)

p/d set is fun to play but for wvw group fight i use d/d

your roll as a thief with zerg or group fight is to take the scatters or the back line which usually stand and nuke freely your team. you are not the aoe burst dmg like the power necros, you are not the healer like the ele or guardian and you dont have mass aoe conditions like necro or engineer.

so dont look for the warrior or guardians front line as most of the dmg will be there and as you main roll is to do fast burst dmg against small back line group harass them and to make them concentrate on defense and not offense while trying to take them down fast if you can

most of the times i can take out fast 3-5 caster enemies and my front line come to secure the down and so on

when dagger strom needed i use it and back out again or when using SB to clusterbomb for 4k aoe dmg

many thread i read that ppl wanna do gameplay like warrior on their thief… why?

in bigger groups play i just come from the sides and not with the group burst location as the whole dmg will be there and the bakline will focus the dmg on that spot.
i find it very easy to observe and picking up the back line without being focused until they see 3-5 members down and start locking around
when my group call for water field i jump back to heal myself if needed and all over again
with group fight the toughness is really not matter if you have 2200 or 2600 but more mobility skills evades and dodges

maybe spider venum with 33% plus poison duration and or 80% plus condition duration

i use this skill if i want to catch my target from running away or to prevent it to burst on me especially on warriors
for me its like the scepter #2 skills on the mesmer which blocks an attack . the immobilize prevent it if i can catch my enemy coming to me

p/p can used immoblize to secure full p#3 but i think p/p must be revized as its still the most uneffective set for thieves

here some build you can use in wvw
d/p basic are 0,30,30,10,0 after you learn you can go 10,30,30,0,0 mix pvt and zerk
p/d basic are 0,0,30,20,20 or 20,0,30,20,0 full dire

s/d need more skill to use it basic are 10,30,0,30,0
s/p not good right now with PW nerf

i use 0,30,0,20,20 with all weapon set d/d , s/d , s/p, sb . its good build which mix good mobility evades and dodge and also good attack with no initiatives problems.
i dont like perma stealth d/p

imo Body shot in P/D set isnt much needed all p/d thieves who learn to play it before the patch will continue do so affective after . i would prefer other condition instead of immobilization

Thieves right now dont have any group support skills so all they can give is fast down stranglers with d/d or d/p burst which they do best.
thus i think thieves dont need to support group with boon,condition as other class just do it better

venom share doesnt add anything special. if anet want venom to work they need to rethink the condition thief again

basic trait for condition thief are 20,0,30,20,0 or 0,0,30,20,20

base condition dmg is 1300-1500 and with buff it can go to 1900 while other classes can go to 2000 easily without companset their vitality or toughness . sure thief can go higher but his defense will be useless not like any other class. and again 2000 condition dmg doesnt give thief any edge over necro, enigneer or mesmer burst and make the thief to use Shadow’s Rejuvenation instead of Venomous Aura
so if we want to change that we need to make Venomous Aura more appealing

the condition thieves put are mainly bleeding, poison with weapon skills but can be cleanse easily with no cover conditions.

i love the condition thief but these day its hard to kill good player with conditions and if it take me 5 min i rather change class to necro or mesmer or go d/d d/p power build

as d/d or d/p setup are burst dmg why not to make the thief burst condition

2 options i can think instead of venom share

1. give him more conditions with shorter duration like skale do for example:
devourer- immobilize and confuse 3 stacks 3-5 seconds
spider- poison and weaken 5 stacks 10 seconds
ice- chill and blind 3 stacks 5 seconds
fire venom- which put burning and cripple 3 seconds
and also fear venom which break stun and aoe fear for 1 seconds
Basilisk Venom will put all condition for 2-5 seconds as elite beacuse now its pretty useless without lysa runes

this way it will harder to cleanse all the conditions used.
thief will use 2 venoms skills and 1 or 2 stun breaks like shadow step ROI etc

so this way you wont get OP class as thief still need to escape fast and stun breaks in hands

or

2. if not adding more condition we need to buff the conditions thief using by giving more stacks and duration to each venom by
insead venom share go with venom buff trait which give 100 condition dmg and 10% duration to each venom skill used – so when u using venom you will get with 2 venom skills 200 condition and 20% duration buff (like Malicious Sorcery for the mesmer and Lingering Curse for necro)
and also the Residual Venom i would put in the adept as condition thief go with 20,0,30,20,0 or 0,0,30,20,20 so it has never been used and you rarely see build which uses 30 points in DA

dont forget thieves are mastery of deception and escape this is why i like this roll so why not giving us more conditions uses

what the purpose of the build, which gameplay?
is it roaming , zerging , raiding?

you basically sitting duck as you cannot dodge, no fast escape . so in zerg or raid group not much big help

in small group like 5 man taking camp or ninja stuff it can work by spreading venom for fast burst

do bloodlust and corruption stacks? i dont think so

i tried the condition build 20,0,30,20,0 as roaming with thieves guild and its fun play 1v1 or 1v2

these days i feel thieves are pushed aside as other classes can do it better
power dmg – warrior
condition – necros and engineer

which are your evades? only DB which does low dmg and consume your initiative points.
maye go for perma dodger with perma vigor, Signet of Agility, Roll for Initiative, Withdraw

i run similar build 4 moths ago

i would drop the 10 in SA and put them in acro for more 10% dmg as u dodge alot and take PR or POI . with jewels 96 more toughness wont add u much so drop it and take zerk or valk
i think your dmg is bit low and give you hard time to put good pressure
my dmg on AA are 1.2k while yours is 0.8k and LS 4k while yours 3k
take bloodlust on SB to stack it as its nice 250 more power and sigil of air as it does more single target dmg than fire sigil .
try out 0,30,0,20,20 which keeps the dodges and give you more power

nice played

venum in small group fight is nice but dont give any edge in larger group

i can see maybe 4 thieves spreading each 1 on a group of guardian and warriors using it so the first burst is gonna do much torment and immobilization but again not mandatory

for group play i think thieves should focus on higher dmg and not conditions

untill anet buff the venoms it can be use only as roamer tool.

after playing all the build out there for a thief and playing only wvw as roamer and raid/zerg i can say that condition wont contribute to raids fights as other classes do it better.
i am using 0,30,0,20,20 build which give boons to my party when stealing and also fury, swiftness and might and vigor for 18 seconds so as you see it contribute a lot for the group. also i am running pvt armor and zerker jewels and using SB with skill 4 and 2 to spread poison and bleed and does 4-5k aoe dmg when crit
and when i see low health target i put it down fast with DD set

this build have lots of evades and dodges which much better than stealth while zerging

easy solution is not to be able to stack stealth so d/p can only stealth for 4 seconds max

DB – is your evade skill like any other #3 skill weapon (not p/p). as d/d set mainly using power i would suggest give it cripple or immobilized condition. what u suggesting is to make it like AA use.
BS – in p/d setup is useless or maybe can act as burst preventing so immobilized is nice but vulnerability is useless
in p/p setup it have more use but initiative is too high to spend on it
UNLOAD – with p/p condition set u must change sneak attack . i would give it evade like any other #3 skill and maybe aoe dmg

i would love to see more p/p thieves so the whole concept of pp must change

Carpboy.7145:

Could you elaborate on why its gimmicky and not very viable? Its just like Laelas P/D build but with healing power over vitality. Also still kinda curious why its called a unicorn build lol

regarding wvw mainly (as i wvw player)
if you play with group raids bleeding can be applied better and faster with other classes .
you only dmg is from bleeding and so can be removed easily fast unless you can put 3-5 conditions to cover the bleeding.
25 stack bleeding with group can be achieved easily so you dmg wont be significant.
however you can jump into the enemy group and spam DB 3-4 times and get out almost unharmed and again 2 necros can do it better from afar

you can solo camp easily…

if you roam alone 1v1 its fun to play but again with the new meta ppl stack conditions cleanse so against warrior mesmer necro ele etc you mostly do slow and low dmg . sure you can take noobs ones if they just stand and let you spam
if you trying to do 1vX its fun also but again low dmg

if i play d/d i use it mostly to evade when my endurance is low and if i want condition spec i use p/d with much more conditions to cover the bleeding

and again the healing will come from DB mostly but wont be significant against good player as they will dodge or port away so maybe 1 hit will land so i prefer withdraw

thieves are good at movement plain and simple so immobilize by itself for thieves are good as it serve as controlling your enemy movement.
i think you can compare it to the mesmer scepter block every 8 seconds (or 6) and every other classes block skills. if you time it right you can prevent the enemy burst on you (maybe more the melee ones but also other classes too)

if you going power build than as said b4 it can be use as seconds set to secure your burst instead of using venom devourer venom or basilisk

if you going on condition spec with p/d that you can control the fight with immobilized the enemy burst on you or use shadow strike to punish his movement around using torment

but so far good thieves learn to handle how to play without it so for me its not account as buff at all.

i think toughness is better than healing power
getting 300-600 hp each hit versus prevent dmg burst from hitting you 12k ….

aa doesnt use initiative points so no healing from our main dmg attack
shadow’s rejuvenation doesnt affected by healing power and p/d dont have spamable skills so only caltrops is been affected by it but can be dodge fast enough so most ppl wont stay the whole 10 seconds

still nice on unicorne build but still gimmicky build and not so viable in wvw raiding or roaming

after seeing all classes get some buff ,thief only get nerfed is kinda put me down

i love the thief and play it from day 1. tried every build out there and every time another nerf is lurking from the corner

they nerf stealth so ppls go to evade and dodges build and they nerf the dmg

in wvw raid perspective thieves dont have any room anymore as warrior can do it better . sure we can still kill doly faster and safer

roaming perspective sure i can still kill with good burst some zerk build but it seems everyone using high toughness these days so most of the fight enemy just run away

and still anet buff the condition mesmer even more with almost 6 second cd (when traited) on blocking torment spam with scepter… very nice, buff the engineer and ele with bigger aoe

i think thief will become more as a niche play for ppl who still like the stealth and more pve base than pvp or wvw

p/d thief dont need immobilized and if one need it to secure cnd he should practice more on landing cnd on moving target

using it on target while using caltrops is nice but most target will just cleanse it or jump away with other skills
and only 1 seconds its not enough to use 4 initiatives so still cnd and aa much better

the only thing its good at is counter big burst warrior/melee and to keep them in place far from you. but again thief good at dodging and evades

so imo its useless

Zumy.6318:

Without 30 in SA in WvW you will be food for P/D thieves. Very much.

if you dodge a lot and shadow return you can catch him easly. p/d conditions are very easy to clear with shadow return as the main stack are bleeding

and i find that for me 0,30,0,20,20 works better than 10,30,0,30,0 regarding initiative points, perma vigor for dodges (in wvw)

thief also have a roll in group fight to finish the back line who just got stomproll by the frontline
i am doing it with SB cluster bomb 3-4k aoe spamming dmg

i am using more the evades/dodges abilities than the stealth which is used mainly to gain power burst or to get out safely from zergy situations

i think the only problem is with the d/p exploit so if stealth can be stacks up to 4 seconds it will solve to problem . but without stleath at all (even with hp buff) we will be just weak warrior like

here is another thread about thieves being OP

well they arent if they play against skilled opponents

i play thief from day 1 and also mesmer and necro
after you learn the basic how to counter thief its very easy to accomplish . you learn when thief use stealth when and where they dodge roll

i did some video which expain it. i played new build (s/p) i was testing against d/p thief. so i start count the seconds and put space between us and caught him when he got revealed without initiatives points

imo thief need more skill boost and some skill nerf

i dont like perma stealth thief who just trolling and its bit boring to play with or against

well yesterday warrior hit me with 13k eviscerate- mmm op?! na . i have should dodge
so i punish him with 5k cnd and 8k bs and spam HS as he tried to run away and only HS can catch him but he got away…

tip: never run from thief only if you sure he cant catch you. otherwise put some pressure on him

learn to play the game as its not about 500 skills used but know the movement , know the class you play against, and watch the environment carefully

i am also able to do 1v5 against pugs or uplvl or afk , but never against guild group or skilled players

in tpvp you wont see many thieves these days…

so pls stop putting OP thread is bit boring …

120 seconds cd is too much to be useful trait so i add the stealth so
i would add go stealth also if your hp is 50%

i would add also when you crit you add burning for 1 seconds (5-10 seconds cd)

MatthijsB.4731:

That just use Daggerstorm for stability(cancel it) and your damage seems kinda low to me. Atleast for what I’ve seen in the video.
I use S/D in zergs with 0/30/20/20/0 and my Larcenous strike seems to deal the same amount of damage of you PW.

thanks
what are your state which yield more dmg?
and doesnt LS base dmg is third of PW so how it does same dmg?

and do you think SB should be buffed anc could be used as main hand weapon?

ok,
i want to find build which can be played with group fight and also can be good to roaming.

my build uses a lots of evades and dodges – you basically can dodge 7 times in a row
and can have almost perma vigor and almost perma fury while also benefit the group when stealing

for the condition meta you have 5 skills which cleanse conditions of you

play style:

i start with SB to check my enemy armor. if i hit above 1.2k i know he is squishy
and also the sb soften my enemies with bleed poison and can make them use their heal skill earlier to my burst from s/p set
with group play i mainly use SB for aoe which does 3-5k dmg and AA does 1-2k dmg to 3 target
so this build enable me to dive in ABUSE SB2 and dodge out and secure the downs

i know that ppl use with s/d the 10,30,0,30,0 set or with s/p the 10,30,0,030 build but with bit less dmg you can have more initiatives points gain with 0,30,0,20,20 as you get 3 more and steal gives 3 more and also maintain the 3 ini gain per 10 seconds and with 2 signets uses you get 4 more every 24 seconds

so to sum up:
1. great power
2. great crit chance
3. good crit dmg (2.2-2.3 multiplier)
4. great evades and dodge
5. great aoe dmg

versus medium armor 2.2k and health pool 17-18k

check the video also

if you only need swiftness just to be fast roamer so use traveler rune but if you wanna catch ppl fast enough the runes itself wont help you much if you play it wrong

if you play x/d use dancing dagger to cripple
if you using s/x use infiltrator to immobilized
use infiltrator signet , shadow step, steal, etc to catch your enemy
use fleet shadow trait as d/d or d/p

you mention you are playing in small group so ppl can stack swiftness on you
with rune of centaure you can be perma swiftness

so imo to take traveler rune only of the 25% movement is not so usefull but its nice

I am playing mainly wvw and when in prime time mainly with guild/pugs group
i cant say i like the d/p stealth abusing and i love the s/x set

here is short video of SB+S/P group play

is the SB can be main hand and do you think it should be buffed?

are other classes can do more aoe dps or thieves should focus only on roamer/scout roll

i would like also a comment on the build if you can

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAsaVlYmSOHcS6E+5Ex2jeKUe6pgsjtTBXtKA-jEyAYLBRCCERBkQAk9KiGbVsIas6aMlLRUtQAlHDA-w

for wvw its all depends how your game play
if you running alone looking for 1vX go d/p or d/d or even p/d. and it wont change after the new patch
if you roamer with group play s/p is strong set and even s/d and again i dont think it will change

i play s/p in wvw and after practice with this set its really stronger set for group play

i will try to make more hp and less crit chance
my build give me about 65% crit chance (85% with fury) and almost every hit is critical so i dont see any point to invest more than 50%-60%

dont forget thieves abilities are go in and out fast and they should tank dmg. so yes go in and out fast and look the right moment to strike

against condition necro the match is very hard if they play it right
so you must have 3 conditions clearness abilities like S2, shadow return, shadow embrace, signet of agility

as s/p dont shadow inside his wells and try to interrupt his skills use with P4 , than look for the right moment to strike and S2 and S3 . he will probably go DS so just dodge his DS4 and DS5 or use P5 , save initiative points for S2 as condition cleanse and to confuse him where your location is as his scepter/dagger can kill you in seconds
try to make him dodge twice and u can use steal S3 P5 and AA in seconds

as s/d again save initiative point for S2 and spam AA as your main dmg and use S3 to remove protection/stability and dodge a lot . if he goes plague i use S3 to take stability and use SB from range or just spam AA

again its 50%/50% against good condition necro 1v1

p/x till now is being used by conditions spec as p/d and with the torment condition with shadow strike and skale venom i dont think immobilized is good for this setup as torment is good only when they are moving else ppl will stop using torment with this build

i think thief need more self movement ability and not movement control so immobilize is good when you can burst so like in s/p set up using skill 2 and 3 than 2 again.
with p/p there is no point to use immobilize and vulnerability is better as using 2 twice and than 3 unload to do 20% more dmg . i can think maybe chill is better to slow down 66% and slower cd on skills

where is the build))

2400 power, 2000 condition and 2600 armor versus 1950 power , 2300 condition and 3000 armor , will do more ~33% dmg but will take more ~10% dmg

there is a video of necro testing power build, condition build and hybrid build and also with 2 ppl killing in pve
the results was that 2 conditions build players dont kill faster that 1 condition player and that hybrid build kill faster than condition or power builds so…(5 seconds faster )
its all depends on your game style . if you think you safe enough with 2600 armor versus 3000 go with more power if you wanna bunker or dont want to take any risk go full dire

and as p/d thief who usually run with shadow step and the trait which cleanse condition when stealth you basically need more toughness so i wouldnt recommend full carrion but mix with dire or rabid

@Master of Timespace – regen warrior are hard when they start to run away i usually take them with 10 bleed stacks and 6 torment stacks but when they go 50% hp they start to run away fast and i cant catch them

against d/p thieves its basically if i manage not to miss my cnd i will win, as d/p have more room for mistake with initiative management i will take caltrops to use when he shadow refuge and use shadow strike and dodge with caltrops to wear them down at the start and stay away from them . but yes its 50%/50% chance as they can get lucky with hs

@ionic – sometimes having sneak attack to do more 500 dmg will take your enemy down faster before it heals than doing 30 dmg more with condition. and again if you are medium player go with full dire and play safe

and again we dont want it to be OP build

with perplexity rune against smart foes its hard to do dmg as they cleanse the condition or just reset the fight . new players will just spam skills to death but any dmg will kill them as they new players.

i love to see d/p spamming hs when he got even 8 stacks confusion.
its also fun to see ppl with torment and confusion just standing knowing they cant use skills cant dodge or move . but they forget its only 2-5 stacks so by just see it on your screen make them fear …

and i hope the only nerf will be cd on the #6 ability so pl just wont spam 4444444

i would take fury trait which gives 20% more so your base crit chance and dmg is higher.
i dont like hard to catch as its random and some times when you about to down enemy they stun you/fear and you pop up in random place. think of 1v2 fight… when u pop in the warrior hand after necro fear you….

you bit glacy and dont have much ini regen or defense utilities so your build doesnt have lots room for mistake

so i would drop the condition buff from food and take toughness or even more power

i would go for p/d and seconds set p/p with more hybrid build with 1000 condition dmg so i have more stealth with cnd and finish off with p/p