@Blaine
True. But seeing as we cant mitigate condition damage in anyway. Id much rather have control of the damage i can mitigate.
And that was partly what i was trying to say about toughness and condition damage. But I was also referring to percentage of hp healed back. But then ofcouse like you said, thats also just perceptual.
But when you factor in traits and damage boosts which are triggered at certain levels of hp, it becomes important. Also mentally its going to be more encouraging for you to reset back to a high percentage of hp and if you cant, your opponent will feel they are winning, which could help them close out the fight. Also you have to take into account many damage boosts are triggered at below 50% hp. So its not wise to allow your self to be so easily kept low percentage wise.
This is an interesting topic. But as far as im concerned, theres not a single situation I would pick vitality over toughness. Unless I was going for some sort of sacrificial build where i had no interest in healing after doing whatever I was supposed to.
Ive come accross plenty of situations where my heals werent good enough for my high hp pool. But ive never had a situation where i didnt have enough hp… 19k hp is plenty.
I have a hard time with any argument along the lines of low vitality being somehow good because it increases heal effectiveness relative to your total health pool. That’s not to say I couldn’t be convinced.
Arguing that rabid would sustain better than soldier’s seems crazy. Clerics I could maybe believe, or maybe Valk’s or Shaman’s. I do not see how lowering vitality without achieving compensation in healing power equals more sustain.
I suspect the reason that you are getting worn down in your bunker build is the same reason we all get worn down – we can’t heal through DS, and we can’t get enough of a combination of healing and LF generation enough out of DS to effectively rotate in and out of DS without being worn down.
I’m curious about your bunker build though – is it not DS-based?
It was DS based. I believe i had it as 0/0/20/20/30 just to try it. The high hp pool from PVT didnt do anything to help. Just having toughness would of been more beneficial. Unfortunately knights gear in tpvp is vit instead of toughness.
I was especially referring to the part you bolded. That is just not true, your heals are not more effective.
Rabid and Carrion take 10k in conditions. That’s 55% hp lost for rabid and you’re left with 8k hp. 40% lost with carrion, 15k hp left.
So after that you have almost double the amount of health with carrion. If you heal back 6k with Consume: 14k rabid (78%), 21k carrion (84%).And your cleric’s vs soldier’s example… they both have the same amount of toughness, the exact same amount of damage mitigation. How on earth would the extra healing power on cleric’s have made a difference? Considering how bad healing power interacts with our heals, you would have had to use Consume Conditions a million times before you could catch up to those 6440 extra hp you get from soldier’s.
Besides, there could have been many other reasons why you lost that fight…
Because instead of healing back 15% of my hp i would be healing back 30% of my hp. The vitality made it impossible to get back to 100% hp. Which is quite important when you have traits like full of life. I would of lost that fight no matter what gear i ran on a bunker build. Necro bunker is terrible, my point was it was counter productive taking vitality in that build.
Like i said its difficult to explain what i mean by toughness still helping with conditions. So I wont bother over a forum. However even when taking condition damage you will still be taking some direct damage so toughness still plays a role.
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but might doesnt give power?
Might gives power, but stacking those runes instead of actuall dps runes or orbs is a dps loss, especially when your party is stacking might for you.
Toughness does help you with condition damage. It might not mitigate the damage, but your heals will heal back the health lost much more efficiently.
No, toughness doesn’t help at all with condition damage.
Using condition damage as a reason to take vitality is a poor arguement unless we had a very low base hp pool.
It is not poor at all. Conditions are huge in any pvp environment, ignoring that on the basis that our hp pool is big to begin with is just wrong.
Read my post again. Ive bolded the important part for you. Just to expand on it, your heals will heal back a higher percentage of your base hp = better sustain. Therefore toughness still benefits you when taking condition damage because of healing. Its difficult to explain what i mean exactly over a forum.
Our hp pool is big enough to survive plenty of conditions and cleanse them. If we have it any bigger we lose even more effective healing, which is not acceptible. I tried a PVT bunker build in the new condi meta in tpvp and I just couldnt sustain myself. I could last a long time, but i was slowly getting warn down and losing fights against eles and such which werent even built full bunker (and they didnt even have to disengage). My high hp pool was what was causing the problems. I guarantee if I used a clerics amulet instead I would of had a much better experience. Even a rabid amulet would of allowed me to sustain better.
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yap im going to do the zerg gear, about the runes are these that 1 pers told me above ok?: 2 rune of fire/2 hoelbrak/ 2 strength
No. Use ruby orbs or Scholar runes. Might duration runes are a complete waste of dps, especially in a group.
30/25/0/0/15 or 30/10/0/0/30
Full beserker. CoF, CoE and Arah all give beserker gear.
Funny thing is, I wakittenting 7k lifeblasts yesterday with my 30/25/0/0/15 build with 10 stacks of might and no warrior banners. Was also hitting 6k on final strike of dagger np. If im not mistaken Nemesis’s build required a bit more than that to hit 7k.
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Toughness does help you with condition damage. It might not mitigate the damage, but your heals will heal back the health lost much more efficiently. Using condition damage as a reason to take vitality is a poor arguement unless we had a very low base hp pool.
@Blaine
I never said toughness is 100% better than vitality for DS. I was talking about the necromancer in general. And in that case toughness is better. You cant rely on DS survivability to keep you alive, there are too many variables.
And they’ve said multiple times they wont be making new weapon types anytime soon. They will be bringing in new weapons for all classes from the pre-existing weapons. It actually irritates me when people come up with unrealistic suggestions like scythes, because it doesnt help the discussion and it just derails the topic into some fantasy land.
Yes our heals are ineffective but that means you should avoid making them even more ineffective. In PvP/WvW that small difference translates to a much bigger difference in sustain during a fight. In PvE its irelevant as taking any survivability stats are just a waste.
You guys are assuming you never take damage out of DS. Thats not the case. There is literally no benefit to kittening yourself over with your main hp pool just to make your class mechanic a bit better at sustaining. If you take damage on your base hp your going to need to heal it back up, but if youve stacked vitality your heal skill is gonna heal you for a lower percentage of your hp. You will get slowly warn down because you cant sustain your main hp pool properly. Your primary health bar is more important than your class mechanic, dont forget that.
I understand what you guys are saying, but in practise its a stupid way to build. Its good in theory if you can avoid all damage except when in DS, which just isnt possible in most cases.
And +1 to Mammoth.
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The most likely first weapons they give necro would be sword or greatsword.
And Id still take toughness. Because DS is not going to heal me. Effective healing is way more important than effective health points. Like I said before, vitality is only useful to absorb burst (we dont need any, we can absorb enough with our base hp + DS)
And yes it does depend on the numbers, so vitality could grant more sustain in DS. But thats not the point is it. The point is which is better for a necro and that is toughness without a doubt.
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I believe you are making a deductive error, spoj.
If you promote toughness to be better because heals are more effective, then vitality makes lf regen for your lf pool more effective because it’s percentage based… simple as that.
But in what world does lifeforce generation heal your base hp….
Toughness makes your lifeforce generated more efficient because even though the amount of EHP gained isnt as much, you also dont lose as much. Its balanced. Not sure how you guys are failing to see that.
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There is some ratio, but as Blaine pointed out it is likely to be much more heavily towards HP than armor than the 10:1. Also, when I’m talking vit/toughness I’m thinking more PvP, where you can’t afford to do both, whereas in PvE you can do just fine having a little of both.
@spoj, yes it does. If you have twice the HP, then each 1% LF you gain is now double the eHP gained. So it therefore effectively increases the HP you gain.
Yes thats what i said, but poorly worded. But toughness has the exact same end effect as you lose less when your hit. So vitality over toughness is a bad choice unless you need to absorb ridiculous burst and have no interest in healing yourself.
Yeah WoR hasnt been working on Arch diviner for me for about a month.
Although I agree with most of what is being said here, I’d like to stress out that we shouldn’t really act as if this ‘DS-block’ was the difference between being viable in hard PvE content and not being it. The DS-block was very much inferior to a real block to begin with: a lot of those big hits are encountered in high level fractals and if said hits were an agony attacks, it really didn’t matter much if you “blocked” it or not; since the agony wasn’t avoided in this way, you were going to eat dust more often than not anyway. I have to be honest and say that this change really didn’t affect me much.
The issue remains though that a necro has to play a lot differently (I’d dare say better, as in: a lot less, to no room for error) than many other classes, while having pretty much nothing to show for it. I’ve never really had that much issue with not being accepted in a group or getting called out or something, as others have experienced. Yet it’s pretty common for me to find myself in a somewhat challenging encounter at lvl 48 fractals, working my kitten off to see all the tells, time all the dodges perfectly, don’t waste any dodges, dps as much as possible, etc. and then glance over to the guardian that couldn’t time a single dodge properly if his life depended on it (some don’t even seem to know how to dodge in the first place…), all while pooping out boons, heals and projectile absorption/reflection skills like there’s no tomorrow (and with hardly any notion of when to actually use/time them), having less issue to not go down than me and probably dps’ing on par with me to boot: at those moments I’m truly wondering myself wtf I’m even doing there…
Not to mention some burst are multi hit. Which completely destroyed DS as a block even when it didnt carry over to hp. Alpha’s stacked aoes is an example of this, although its really 5 seperate bursts, if you run out of dodges DS will only absorb one and the rest will down you.
But… LF generation and ticking is percent-based, and damage taken while in DS goes through armor just like damage taken to your normal HP…
If anything, even MORE toughness could theoretically work if you can consistently use full DS in fights, thanks to DS increasing effective HP.
Is there something I’m missing?DS doesn’t simply increase your EHP, though. Unlike with your health bar, Vitality both increases your base Life Force total and also increases your DS’s “Healing Power.” LF also scales off Vitality at a rate other than 10:1 (6:1 according to the dev post, ~12:1 according to community tests).
What this means is the values of Toughness and Vitality are likely different to the Necromancer than they are for the other professions. You can’t simply follow the 10:1 rule of thumb because Vitality is pulling double-duty and appears to scale harder. Toughness may still win out, but that comes down to Necro-specific math.
Vitality doesnt increase your “DS healing power”, it doesnt effect lifeforce generation, it just makes you get more hp per 1% lifeforce. But toughness reduced damage in DS so its more beneificial to both your base hp and your lifeforce seeing as you can heal your base hp up faster and DS is always the same rate of lifeforce generation. Vitality is for burst but we definately dont need anymore burst absorption when we have 19k hp and a second health bar.
I tanked a Jade maw laser again today in full beserker. Last time it took me down to 40%, this time it took me down to about 3%. I suspect i might of had last gasp active the first time and some mobs died around me immediately to put it back to 40%.
Nope your not missing anything. Your right.
Vitality is only good for low hp classes that need to survive a bit more burst.
Surely p3 is the shortest. P2 has a pretty quick section leading up to lupi with a good group but after lupi its quite a large chunk of running
…still sounds probable tho. …kill 1 boss & skip golem escort, stack&‘flect Lupi… skip a mile of other junk, maybe even have a terrain sploit past Alph b/c mesmers weren’t fixed … solo gank Brie with O^P DPS build and it’s gg?
Doing all that is not really any faster than p3. But i guess there is a bit of time gating on the final boss of p3.
Id say CM but then we usually have atleast 3 people and pug the last spot/s. So not sure how fast and easy it is with the average full pug.
Wait.
Arah P1 is like the easiest and shortest Arah path. There are no mobs and all the bosses are super easy. Don’t you mean P2?
Also, P4 will always be worthwhile so long as the end boss retains the chance to drop Bloodstone Shard recipes. There’s a reason people farm it even though its so long.
P3 is definitely shortest and easiest. P1 is alright with a good group but if your members are inexperienced and chain wipe on Lupi it’s a long run back. The Korga fight, even if it’s optional, is just ughhh.
Both wrong.
:(
Surely p3 is the shortest. P2 has a pretty quick section leading up to lupi with a good group but after lupi its quite a large chunk of running and an extra boss before the final boss. P3 just has more stuff before lupi but a very short run and boss afterwards. Is it because it takes too long for p3 to finish capturing the circles at the end?
I tend to use the gs push on the slave driver instead of focus. Just because theres no delay and its just habit to start the fight with my gs beserker and then switch to sword focus. I havent run cof since getting a pistol though (I use sword focus + sword pistol in every other dungeon now). So i prob will just end up using focus instead. I do find the GS has its uses in some places. Soloing the husk in CoE p2 it can be useful for the extra push and good for clearing the thorns.
I believe a Dev said toughness reduces damage taken in DS aswell. Was at some point in the last few months. That makes toughness a clear winner due to healing. Even if toughness didnt help DS, I would still always take toughness to be able to heal up more efficiently. The only time id use any defensive thats are in WvW or PvP, so having vitality to absorb boss burst is not relevant.
It is coming soon. We dont know exactly when but it will be in one of the living story patches every 2 weeks this year.
I have no idea what you just said.
I feel like im talking to a brick wall. I dont have a source for where it was said. But i remember it being discussed on the dungeon forums. Early on someone asked someone from anet and they sait its perfectly fine. If people want to skip, they can. If it was considered exploiting, dont you think Anet would of done more to stop it by now?
There are different ways to complete content in many games. Just because WoW and other games want you to do nothing but kill everything doesnt mean its the same for gw2. Mindlessly killing everything in your path is boring and stupid. Skipping past trash to save time is just avoiding unnecessary combat to save time and complete the content in a different way. In no place in a dungeon does it say you have to kill these optional mobs to progress. Your only objective is to get to the next main objective. How you do that is up to the team you are playing with. Consider it stealthing past guards to infiltrate and assassinate the boss. Or running past them and losing them because they cant keep up.
This idea of multiple ways to complete content is taught to us in the personal story. We choose between vigil, whispers and priory. The vigil missions generally involve storming the place with brute force (which is how you want to us to play for the whole dungeon). Whispers missions involve infiltration, stealth and subterfuge. Priory involves tactics and intelligent planning. Surely we can use these methods in the very game they are displayed in….
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Even with the fast times they are more deserving of a bit more gold than 3g. Compared to other paths.
GW2 isnt a traditional MMO. Ill say it again. The devs fully support skipping. Just because you think its wrong doesnt mean it is.
Actually the TA boss can bleed now, and many others. If you play conditions as long as I have, you notice that now you see those damage ticks on the boss. Of course in those events there are dozens of people attacking, so you only see one or two ticks. Very noticeable in TA though.
But I agree. A hybrid build is much better for dungeon crawling, especially fractals, with rampagers. But if you run a non bleed group with a rabid necro it is good to great on several fractals (dredge, ascalon, lava fractal). Fractals in the 40+ range don’t suffer with a little bit of toughness over power. Of course in that range, why would you want a necro anyhow?
Read my sentence about TA again. I know bleeds work. Just power is really helpful in killing that boss fast. SOLO take a hybrid necro into fractal 79 because of the blinds and epidemic + necro being op underwater. But thats more because of a skilled player rather than class.
Skipping trash isnt exploiting. The devs said its perfectly acceptible. The only dungeon and path my group even remotely “cheeses” on is CM path 2. You can cleave some bandits through the walls without getting hit by the turrets. Doesnt really improve time much though, its just less annoying.
Everything else we do completely legit and just skip unnecessary trash. The difference between speedrunning and fast experienced groups is team composition and dps builds, using organised tactics and meleeing everything. We all have multiple alts so we can swap around what we play without being forced to play sub optimal classes.
I think your definition of speed running is different to mine.
By old WoW dungeon exploit definition (kinda first mmo where you could skip trash mobs): If a option exists by a class in game or specific action to be used in a uninteded way (in GW2 it would be stuff like porting trough walls, aggro drops and re chains to get mobs stuck away from objectives, etc) allowing to skip more than 33% of a dungeon is exploitation (since then/BWL you got pretty much either always mobs that you couldnt skip or that are worth more to kill).
Speedrunners dont port through walls. Aggro could easily be made to never drop in dungeons if the devs wanted it. They increased the leash range a few patches back but they dont want it infinite because its silly and being forced to kill trash with poor loot drops which are easily avoided is pointless. In some cases it takes more skill to skip than to kill. I dont know of any situations where we stop mobs from reaching important objectives (there arent any complicated mechanics like that anyway). If your referring to LoSing to pull trash and group them up. People do that in loads of games, i believe they even do it in WoW. Its a valid tactic, for a bad group with poor dps it can go very badly (dredge fractal).
And gw2 isnt WoW so even if skipping is regarded as exploiting in that game. It isnt in gw2. The devs were asked about this ages ago and they say its a valid tactic, hence why they havent prevented it. They just made it harder by changing aggro in stealth and increasing leash ranges.
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Skipping trash isnt exploiting. The devs said its perfectly acceptible. The only dungeon and path my group even remotely “cheeses” on is CM path 2. You can cleave some bandits through the walls without getting hit by the turrets. Doesnt really improve time much though, its just less annoying.
Everything else we do completely legit and just skip unnecessary trash. The difference between speedrunning and fast experienced groups is team composition and dps builds, using organised tactics and meleeing everything. We all have multiple alts so we can swap around what we play without being forced to play sub optimal classes.
I think your definition of speed running is different to mine.
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Not in pve unless you go hybrid.
Or tailor your group around no other bleeders… which makes for an odd team.
Tailoring all your damage into condition damage is a bad choice. There are bosses which cleanse constantly. And raw damage is important for objects and bosses like nightmare tree in TA (conditions do work but crits dont so power makes a big difference). Also if your ranging why reduce your damage with the toughness stat instead of power? No matter what build your playing, you should always run power in it somewhere for dungeons because it scales so much better than anything else. Also meta bosses, goodluck doing damage to them when everyone else is taking up the bleed caps.
Anyway im sure most of you know my opinion on ranging and using survivability stats by now. No need to repeat myself in every thread.
He only knows about casual pve. Cant really call him an expert when he claims LoSing is an exploit and running full beserker is cheesing.
When you can do all PvE content outside fractals naked, there really isn’t anything but casual PvE.
That might be true. But I wouldnt call speedrunning casual. I know andele is against it because he seems to think speedrunners do nothing but exploit. Which is just ignorant.
Not in pve unless you go hybrid.
You sure you aren’t the one with the troll cave? “Nothing else to do” other than cof farm? Lulz…
Behind Dead Story (festivals everywhere), WvW and Tpvp theres nothing else to do.
But i guess that game was made for casuals so its time to move. ESO coming out soon.
There are other dungeons. Which arent completely faceroll and boring beyond belief.
I’m not really going to discuss the PvE aspect as that’s my least favorite part of the game.
I will say that I think you are misunderstanding a few of the mechanics, unless there is a big difference between the pve and the PvP versions of the sword skills.
Blind stacks in duration, so what you are actually referring to is a blind chain. I always wait for the blind to be used, if it isn’t you can refresh it at .5 seconds remaining. So if they have 30 seconds of blind, or .5 seconds it still blocks one attack. In PvP you can take care of this with interrupting your own skills, or just hitting the air.
Pretty sure he was referring to it because of its aoe blind. Which does negate 5 attacks. Hits 5 mobs = negates 5 attacks.
TA f/f, 2 champ wardens to kill. Some groups skip the one b4 the archers but theres really no point. Now even less groups will skip it.
Yeah, most of this is nonsense. Way more reliable ? splash isnt effective if mob is huge ?
Andele pls.One does not simply say Andele doesn’t know what he’s talking about in PvE.
On a more serious note, keep it pierce. Unless you made it a really big cleave, you are almost always better off with piercing.
He only knows about casual pve. Cant really call him an expert when he claims LoSing is an exploit and running full beserker is cheesing.
What about fighting him at the end of the fractal? Thats the fight i struggle to melee on. He slaps you to often up there. Fine with meleeing him down the bottom.
I find it funny that people have taken this long to start using hammer on the warrior for tpvp. When i first got into it months ago i got completely dominated by a hammer warrior. Warriors were always in an alright state for pvp, its just barely anyone used that one decent build.
True kings wear an oven (SE chest).
Nope. Go hybrid or beserker if you want to be helpful. Or role another class and build zerker.
PvP – running 30/20/0/0/20 terror build. Even with the burning nerf its still ridiculously strong condi pressure.
PvE – full zerk 30/25/0/0/15 dagger build. Dont have to change it for WvW thanks to the mark radius increase. Just swap banshees wail for focused rituals and im good to go with aoe nuking in WvW.
Im against this idea. Theres no point going into why, as it will never happen anyway. It would become an op version of warriors class mechanic.
I dont want the tells improved. Honestly wheres the fun in being told exactly when to dodge every single attack.
Because then you can focus on actual strategy, and on adding real difficulty to the boss battles. That’s what I’m trying to get at here. What you’re experiencing now is artificial difficulty. It’s doing things by memory. Take away this simplistic memory game, and make the moves crystal clear, and you have room to add much better dynamic mechanics on top.
All of the boss battles fall into this dull tank and spank principle. Bosses hardly react to what players do, or force players to change their strategy during the battle. Players simply focus on learning every attack by heart. That is not what a good boss battle should be about. When you lose a boss fight, it should be due to bad strategy, not due to a move you didn’t see coming, or didn’t expect would be deadly.
If it’s deadly, it should look deadly. Surely we’ve all played games that followed this simple principle?
I dont see why we cant just have better mechanics without making tells faceroll. True artificial difficulty is the scaling in fractals. “Oh, just give them more hp and more damage”. You cant avoid it because its just auto attacks on trash mobs. You have to negate with blinds, blocks, dps and interrupts.
I dont want the tells improved. Honestly wheres the fun in being told exactly when and what to dodge every single time. The tells are fine, just because lupi’s grub isnt a standard type of attack doesnt mean its poorly designed. Your dodging the debuff which spawns a grub after a few seconds with your invuln frames on a dodge, its not required so stop complaining about it.
Tells are good. They arent too hard to spot but they arent something you can learn in 2 seconds and lose concentration and still be fine. Mechanics are bad. We need better mechanics but with the same tells which reward players who spend the time learning how to play.
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You can use dark path to dodge Lupi’s aoe. His aoe hits right underneath him before hitting the further out circles. So timing it right you will teleport to where his aoe has already hit and avoid the later hits completely. Similar method of dodging backwards waiting 0.2seconds then doding back to lupi in melee range. Except necro’s dont have access to enough dodges to get away with that.