Guild Wars 2

Please note that we no longer allow Match-up threads on the Guild Wars 2 forum. You can read about our forum changes here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Guild-Wars-2-Forum-Moderation-Updates
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Upcoming-Forum-Changes-to-WvW-Match-ups-Sub-forum

The WvW Community has created a new space for Match-Ups and other off-topic discussion. You can find the Player Community-run site here:
http://www.GW2WvW.net

By the way moving forward (and we can discuss this in the CDI Process Evolution topic) I would like you guys to nominate someone to build the Proposal on behalf of us all.

Due to the Red Swash on the left it seems some are getting confused with Promise vs. Proposal and I just think it would be healthy to do it this way anyway.

Chris

Hi All,

Here is a write up about the current CDI from Anatoli at Massively:

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/01/14/flameseeker-chronicles-taking-guild-wars-2-job-specialization-t/

I will add it to the proposal post.

Chris

Would love to see some new teams in the ESL tournament this week. It is open registration!

If you don’t feel like playing (or can’t) join me in Twitch chat during the event!

All of the high-level weapon skins are available from the Mystery Coffers. This includes Dragon, Phoenix, and Shark.

A fix for this will going in with our next scheduled update.

As John mentioned previously, we don’t plan on retroactively awarding rank points for previous wins. We will, however, be rebalancing rank tiers to make them more attainable.

Chris Cleary.8017:

The abuse of Custom Arenas and the Skyhammer map in particular has been fixed.

We do not comment about account actions taken against players that violate our Rules of Conduct. If you feel that a particular player(s) is in violation of the Rules of Conduct, or would like to report an exploit, please send an email to exploits@arena.net with your report.

Locking this thread. Any additional threads with this same request may be closed.

Hello everyone. Just dropping by to relay a message that Maclaine wrote after reading the suggestions in this thread.

“Thanks for your suggestions, and most of all thanks for your concern. We do actually know what music is playing where. I was the one that set up every play list for every map, both in the original release and in all content released since then. I mentioned this in a livestream a couple of months ago, but I’ll reiterate it here. I’m not happy with how the music is used across the game, and I know from reading feedback that neither are players. One thing or another has kept me from overhauling it until this point, but music is my #1 priority for 2014, and what you’re talking about it something I am literally working on right this very moment. I’m going through every single map, from 1-80 for all races, and working on a plan to both redistribute the music in an intelligent manner, as well as figure out where there needs to be more new music. It will take a while for this to roll out, so I ask that folks are patient, but it will be coming at some point in the future.

Thanks again."

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi All,

Here is the proposal I believe we are making, please discuss and let me know if anything should be added or removed. Note many of us have read the thread internally and thus there has already been valuable impact.

Our Horizontal Progression Proposal

The Reward and Associated Journey

— Sociopolitical Diversification: Player housing (Customizable from rewards gained in the open world), Guild Halls (Customizable from mass play rewards) and Map Wide Meta events unlocked through Faction progression (Leading to both individual and group rewards such as titles and skins)

— Role Diversification: ‘Grail Quest’ (Personal rights of passage) style adventures through the open world (testing the player in combat, discovery, and puzzle solving) which others can engage in once the activities are activated which could reward the Hero with New skills/traits, new weapons, access to inaccessible existing weapons, and infusions.

— Hero Recognition (Reward) is a by product of the above two types of Horizontal Progression leading to Unique Skins, Titles, Rewards, followers and NPC reactions/opportunities based on the players individual feats in the world of Tyria regardless of how he/she chooses to play the game.

Global Rule Proposal governing the above:

- Where possible use the above design paradigm to reinforce and evolve the existing world.
- Players should be able to have multiple methods of achieving ‘Grail Quests’, rather than a section of the journey being based on Jumping Puzzles and that alone for example.
-A reworked (cleaner) version of Signet of Capture would work very well for Role Diversification.
- Sub-classes will be discussed again in a CDI once Arena finishes its current balance work in regard to roles.
- QOL features such as a wardrobe should support this global design.
- QOL: More customization options regarding our armor and weapons. (Things that came up in this regard were: pattern dyes, texture options (other types of wood and different metal polishes), customizeable features like long sleeves vs short sleeves, emblem design.

Once we have discussed the proposal and the thread reaches conclusion we will sticky it and move onto CDI Process Evolution Phase 2.

Note this is the formulation of a collaborative proposal for discussion. Once the proposal is finalized it will be discussed internally. However there will be no promise of associated actions or schedule.

Thank you all so much for your hard work and your passion toward making GW2 awesome. This has been a really good CDI and I want to thank you on behalf of Arena for caring so much about the world we love.

Here is a write up about the current CDI from Anatoli at Massively:

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/01/14/flameseeker-chronicles-taking-guild-wars-2-job-specialization-t/

Chris

Bump. I will bump the proposal once more tomorrow and then sticky the thread (-:

Chris

Devata.6589:

Mimizu.7340:

I see so many animals in the game that I would like to charm into a ranger pet yet the game only allows me a small portion of them.

Ranger pets need expanding to include all the working animals in the game.

I would like a Stag pet, for example.

(and i miss the zoo island from gw)

That is one of the elements I touched on with the RP part of horizontel progression here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/63#post3494474

It´s not yet on the proposal list. Hope Chris will adds that soon. Think the RP (or casual or whatever you name it) horizontal progression is pretty much non-existing in GW2 and it could make huge steps there.

Can you put a short proposal together for the CDI group to discuss please?

Chris

Hi Smiley,

Thanks for the report. We are looking the problem with the ((parenthesis-named)) items.

The Lost Witch.7601:

I would like to add one thing to this proposal that has been well-received earlier on in the thread.

(This could be just a QOL feature, but in my opinion an important one)

• More customisation options regarding our armor and weapons. (Things that came up in this regard were: pattern dyes, texture options (other types of wood and different metal polishes), customizeable features like long sleeves vs short sleeves, emblem design, that sort of stuff.

This falls under hero-recognition, but is a bit different than just adding new skins.

---

Regarding the AI first or class balance first discussion:

Let’s say we change the AI and the encounters to require more healing. Currently not all classes are equally able to heal. So this might lead to ‘forced’ group compositions, something GW2 seems to be very keen on avoiding.

They would have to change class balance with the upcoming AI-change in mind. But releasing the new AI before setting the balance right… could lead to a few months of frustration as the devs are trying to get the balance right.

On the other hand, without new AI to test on… how can you set the balance right?

The best would be a simultaneous effort, but with such a big game… it may be impossible to set aside enough resources to work on these simultaneously without rushing other content.

I guess they will need to do some guesswork with class balance keeping AI changes in mind, and be prepared to update it shortly after AI improvements come through.

Thanks Lost. I will add this to the proposal

Chris

I would like to say that we really appreciate posts with reason, well thought out points, and that inspire discussion. The OP post hits all these points and then some. I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this post. I know the Skills and balance team has looked into the balance of all stat combos recently specially Berserker. I will let them give more details as that is their project, but I just wanted to step in and stay thanks to everyone (specially Blood Red Arachnid).

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

You do need to submit a ticket with Customer Support. Nothing can be done from the forums. Top of Page – Support – Submit a Request. Good luck.

This is correct. You can request individual service of the type that you mentioned only through a ticket. Thanks.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi All,

Here is the proposal I believe we are making, please discuss and let me know if anything should be added or removed. Note many of us have read the thread internally and thus there has already been valuable impact.

Our Horizontal Progression Proposal

The Reward and Associated Journey

— Sociopolitical Diversification: Player housing (Customizable from rewards gained in the open world), Guild Halls (Customizable from mass play rewards) and Map Wide Meta events unlocked through Faction progression (Leading to both individual and group rewards such as titles and skins)

— Role Diversification: ‘Grail Quest’ (Personal rights of passage) style adventures through the open world (testing the player in combat, discovery, and puzzle solving) which others can engage in once the activities are activated which could reward the Hero with New skills/traits, new weapons, access to inaccessible existing weapons, and infusions.

— Hero Recognition (Reward) is a by product of the above two types of Horizontal Progression leading to Unique Skins, Titles, Rewards, followers and NPC reactions/opportunities based on the players individual feats in the world of Tyria regardless of how he/she chooses to play the game.

Global Rule Proposal governing the above:

- Where possible use the above design paradigm to reinforce and evolve the existing world.
- Players should be able to have multiple methods of achieving ‘Grail Quests’, rather than a section of the journey being based on Jumping Puzzles and that alone for example.
-A reworked (cleaner) version of Signet of Capture would work very well for Role Diversification.
- Sub-classes will be discussed again in a CDI once Arena finishes its current balance work in regard to roles.
- QOL features such as a wardrobe should support this global design.

Once we have discussed the proposal and the thread reaches conclusion we will sticky it and move onto CDI Process Evolution Phase 2.

Note this is the formulation of a collaborative proposal for discussion. Once the proposal is finalized it will be discussed internally. However there will be no promise of associated actions or schedule.

Thank you all so much for your hard work and your passion toward making GW2 awesome. This has been a really good CDI and I want to thank you on behalf of Arena for caring so much about the world we love.

Chris

Bump. The following reminder added:

Note this is the formulation of a collaborative proposal for discussion. Once the proposal is finalized it will be discussed internally. However there will be no promise of associated actions or schedule.

Chris

darkace.8925:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

— Sociopolitical Diversification: Player housing (Customizable from rewards gained in the open world), Guild Halls (Customizable from mass play rewards) and Zone Dominance through Faction Alliances (Leading to both individual and group rewards such as titles and skins)

I must have missed that, but if it’s what it sounds like then there are going to be potential problems; particularly one dominant faction leading people to believe they must align with it to get the rewards, leaving other factions abandoned. Again, if this isn’t what I’m thinking it is then disregard my concern.

HI Dark,

I have updated the proposal to give more exposition in those areas.

Chris

Nike.2631:

Shriketalon.1937:

The problem is not teaching the system, it’s challenging the players. Most of the content in this game consists of very crude opponents, mindless melee monsters who stroll towards the player or imbecilic ranged enemies who stand still while someone bashes them in the face. Likewise, most monsters have one single cooldown skill, a rather pathetic lack of resources.

Quoted for truth.

And really, the dumber monster AI is the more often you get calls to split skills between PvE and PvP behaviors. The effort spent making smarter, nastier, more vicious critters pays off double in the less you have to manage parallel skills between gameplay modes.

City of Heroes (may it soar forever in our hearts) was an EXTREME example of this: healing didn’t generate agro so healers could stand completely naked healing at full-blast in the midst of a mass melee and would be ignored by critters until every other party-member was dead. This lead to Devs ignoring giving healing classes any sort of active defense as part of their class. Now pop them into PvP where the universal battlecry is “KILL THE HEALER FIRST” and let me tell you: playing a healer in PvP in that game sucked donkey hindquarters. And they WOULD NOT FIX IT because ‘hey, healers are fine (in PvE)’…

I spoke with their lead designer about it a few times. He didn’t seem to appreciate my suggestion~

“Have healing cause substantial agro in PvE – then when you get a hundred thousand players screaming that healers are unplayable (or rather as unplayable as they are already in PvP…) maybe you’ll feel empowered to fix the root problem …”

I’d really like to see healing others in GW2 generating massive agro, because if monsters don’t respond to it, the fight’s already over. Similarly some mobs that are justifiably smarter in-game should clearly prioritize taking the weakest player down… and then prioritize ending them. Embers are about the only trash monster in the game I respect in group-play, and that’s because they almost coincidentally finish off downed players with their fire fields.

And this is not a call for the (un)holy trinity. The trinity is also based on BAD agro behavior. There is a reason the MMO-tank doesn’t exist in the real world: it is based on the attacker’s complete stupidity. You don’t attack the lowest threat + highest mitigation target first (without arbitrary mind-control… er, ‘taunts’). Games that rely on tanks as a role end up having to do backflips trying to make them relevant in PvP. Again: dumb monsters prompting dumb classes that fall apart when faced with human opponents.

Instead this is the call for more relevant Support and Control. If Critters were actually dangerous, there would be a place for helping the “priority target” survive either by healing/defensively buffing them (Support) or by debuffing or CCing the attackers (Control).

The issue of unsatisfying role balance is something to be laid at the feet of the AI design as much or more than any inequity on the player skill choices side.

I want us to get the role balance paradigm just right providing a solid foundation to interact with before turning up the heat in terms of AI behavior. I believe and know this to be a prerequisite.

I can’t really go into much more detail than this.

Chris

Nike.2631:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

— Sociopolitical Diversification: Player housing (Customizable from rewards gained in the open world), Guild Halls (Customizable from mass play rewards) and Zone Dominance through Faction Alliances (Leading to both individual and group rewards such as titles and skins)

darkace.8925:

I must have missed that, but if it’s what it sounds like then there are going to be potential problems; particularly one dominant faction leading people to believe they must align with it to get the rewards, leaving other factions abandoned. Again, if this isn’t what I’m thinking it is then disregard my concern.

That threw up some flags for me too.

Chris, and you clarify your terms “Zone Dominance” and “Grail Quests” please?

I have updated the proposal.

Chris

Hi All,

Here is the proposal I believe we are making, please discuss and let me know if anything should be added or removed. Note many of us have read the thread internally and thus there has already been valuable impact.

Our Horizontal Progression Proposal

The Reward and Associated Journey

— Sociopolitical Diversification: Player housing (Customizable from rewards gained in the open world), Guild Halls (Customizable from mass play rewards) and Map Wide Meta events unlocked through Faction progression (Leading to both individual and group rewards such as titles and skins)

— Role Diversification: ‘Grail Quest’ (Personal rights of passage) style adventures through the open world (testing the player in combat, discovery, and puzzle solving) which others can engage in once the activities are activated which could reward the Hero with New skills/traits, new weapons, access to inaccessible existing weapons, and infusions.

— Hero Recognition (Reward) is a by product of the above two types of Horizontal Progression leading to Unique Skins, Titles, Rewards, followers and NPC reactions/opportunities based on the players individual feats in the world of Tyria regardless of how he/she chooses to play the game.

Global Rule Proposal governing the above:

- Where possible use the above design paradigm to reinforce and evolve the existing world.
- Players should be able to have multiple methods of achieving ‘Grail Quests’, rather than a section of the journey being based on Jumping Puzzles and that alone for example.
-A reworked (cleaner) version of Signet of Capture would work very well for Role Diversification.
- Sub-classes will be discussed again in a CDI once Arena finishes its current balance work in regard to roles.
- QOL features such as a wardrobe should support this global design.

Once we have discussed the proposal and the thread reaches conclusion we will sticky it and move onto CDI Process Evolution Phase 2.

Note this is the formulation of a collaborative proposal for discussion. Once the proposal is finalized it will be discussed internally. However there will be no promise of associated actions or schedule.

Thank you all so much for your hard work and your passion toward making GW2 awesome. This has been a really good CDI and I want to thank you on behalf of Arena for caring so much about the world we love.

Chris

Elami.7216:

Hello, I filed ticket #245445 on 1/9/14 for a password reset and it is still outstanding. I have sent in all of the required serial information that was asked of me. If you could please look at it when you get the chance. Thank you.

I seem actually to be seeing at least four tickets about this. Please do not submit any more tickets, but if you wish to add more information, update your oldest ticket and leave the others closed.

StriderShinryu.6923:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Recently however we have been working kitten balance and situational role parity and bit by bit in game you can see player’s experimenting much more. This is a very good sign and will afford us a stronger foundation to build our content on moving forward.
Chris

Okay, what was it that got censored there?

What do you mean? They really are working on the balance of kittens throughout the game. Personally, I think more kittens in all areas of the world would certainly make for a solid horizontal progression system I could enjoy.

. (-:

Chris

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Recently however we have been working kitten balance and situational role parity and bit by bit in game you can see player’s experimenting much more. This is a very good sign and will afford us a stronger foundation to build our content on moving forward.
Chris

Okay, what was it that got censored there?

“hard” followed by “on.” (Thanks Denari) (-: Not sure but it adds comedy value so i am going to leave it (-:

Chris

This is not a service we can offer. We appreciate that you are a long-time player, but it would not be appropriate for us to make exceptions to a system that was developed to include a cool-down period for a reason.

Nike.2631:

BlizzShark.5410:

My opinion on Sub-class system is:

• The system works very well. Why? Can make professions a little more exclusive. Ex: Thief vs thief and both have different sub classes we can see 2 different play styles.

It makes me wonder where the game has gone wrong that people don’t realize WE ALREADY HAVE THIS. My Super Unicorn in all Settlers gear is an effective WvW Thief spec that doesn’t even go into stealth. A mantra healing Mesmer is completely unlike a Shatter-duelist spec.

• Sub-Classes could also be the way to add new weapons.

Or we could, just, you know… add them to the game and allow players to mix and match as their tastes and imagination prefer.

• Trait Templates – You could save a build to quick change if you are on wvw or pve and change if you are Out Of Combat.

So now I can set up my ‘groups of trash mobs smashing build’ and my ‘boss-killing build’, and sweep through dungeons even faster than before toggling the two because now I don’t have to make any strategic decisions at all… It doesn’t get much more vertical than that.

Horizontal progression design is hard, because you have to add cool to the game without appealing to the lust for naked POWER. Its hard, but its also worth it.

Excellent post Nike.

Your question here:

‘It makes me wonder where the game has gone wrong that people don’t realize WE ALREADY HAVE THIS. My Super Unicorn in all Settlers gear is an effective WvW Thief spec that doesn’t even go into stealth. A mantra healing Mesmer is completely unlike a Shatter-duelist spec.’

We don’t teach it well enough and therefore it is obfuscated to the point that players have already invested heavily in a particular role making experimentation in diversification less appealing (for a multitude of reasons).

Recently however we have been working kitten balance and situational role parity and bit by bit in game you can see player’s experimenting much more. This is a very good sign and will afford us a stronger foundation to build our content on moving forward.

Thus the timing around this topic is actually excellent.

Chris

Signet of Forums.4397:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Zaoda.1653:

@ColinJohanson,

In regards to new weapon skills/unlocks, I think the way it worked in GW1 in terms of obtaining both normal and elite skills using the Signet of Capture was so unique and amazing. It was something I had never seen done before in any other game I had played, whereby you go around the world looking for specific bosses that have the elite that you want, and that boss had a particular glow depending on what profession it was – gold/yellow for warrior, cyan for ritualist, green for necromancer etc. you slayed that boss, and captured its elite when standing near its corpse. I felt like I had truly earnt that skill, and that to me is what it’s all about – true progression.

So something like a Signet of Capture concept where you can purchase, or get via a reward, and go around and collect weapon skills from bosses would be ideal – and would make you feel as though you truly earnt it.

You could even swap in, say, 10-20 skill points for a capture skill (as many have been wanting more ways to use excess skill points, this could be another way to use them up?)

Edit: another idea could be bringing back elite tomes? Just a thought anyway.

Hi Zaoda,

Absolutely, this is a simple and excellent system. Very elegant, and rewarding with a great sense of discovery.

Chris

Well, I didn’t think the part where you had to have the Signet of Capture already taking up the slot of one of your skills on your skill bar in advance was what I would call “elegant,” but it was interesting aside from that.

Hi,

I am referring to the system at it’s core level. If we were going to reintroduce the system we would evolve and polish it.

I hope this makes more sense.

Chris

Eli Stormstrike.8637:

Eli Stormstrike.8637:

CONTINUED…

ACCOUNT-BIND/SOULBOUND
To encourage alt’ing even further, I suggest that soulbound be removed whereever possible and be converted to account-bound; considering currencies are account-bound, there is no reason for us not to be able to use the same armor sets for our other characters, instead of having them purchase it again with the tokens grinded for on our mains.

DOUBLE SPECIALIZATION/TEMPLATE SYSTEM
The Template System that existed in GW1 saved alot of time, encouraged trying out different builds and easily allowed players who were inactive and returned to be able to become re-connected to the gameplay more easily through remembering and reading through the titles and compositions.

I see no reason for us not to implement such a system for our Traits and Skills, allowing us to re-specialize on the fly depending on the demands of the encounters before us.

WEAPON TYPE ACCESSIBILITY
I don’t see the reason for weapon types being restricted based on class and profession, and removing those restrictions might attract more people to different classes and give players an even broader sense of customization and progression.

I would, for example, love to see a Ranger able to use Rifles.

LEGENDARY DYES AND ACCOUNT-BINDING
This suggestion has been brought up before, I don’t recall where, but it’s yet another method of customization and cosmetic progression which is only positive.

First of all, Dyes should become account-bound on acquire, which would further ease and encourage alt’ing and be a simple quality-of-life update.

As for Legendary Dyes, the suggestion that was put forth was to add effects to the armor similar to those gotten from Legendary Weapons, with fogs and glowing effects added to the character and its armor.

DONE

Hi Eli,

I will be meeting with Izzy to discuss this proposal in detail. He will respond once we have had a chance to do so.

Chris

Chuggs.1682:

CHIPS.6018:

Basically it comes down to this:

GW1 kept players playing by having multiple alt-characters. It was super easy to level up and max equip a new character. This means newbies zones are rarely empty, because veteran players will be bringing their alts though those newbie zones. Most players have a decent understanding of multiple classes, because they played though them all.

WoW kept players playing by power creep. It takes a lot of time and effort to max equip just one character. And so everyone have to focus on one character, that’s it. The newbie zones are emptied out very quickly, because veteran players do not have time to play an alt. Since most players only ever play though 1 class, they often have great misunderstandings on other classes.

I personally prefer GW1’s method. And so it was disappointing to see GW2 going toward the WoW method.

That’s a great, succinct summary of the two extremes, but I think GW2 is a lot more nuanced than that. GW2 has tried to shorten the leveling curve from WOW greatly, and has given people more reasons to go back to early zones through the Sidekick system, living story, dynamic events, and world completion.

The allure of the GW2 world is that it is really a living world where new challenges erupt in old places, and those challenges can bring in players all along the experience curve.

GW2 has flattened the gear curve immensely, and expanded the world on offer to max level players to avoid the trap of MMO’s which are just “get on to raid” or “grind out reputation.”

The more GW2 can do to make itself utilize that world and expand the content in there, the more people are going to be happy with horizontal progression and new experiences, rather than chasing higher stat gear.

This is just such a positive loop that in turn impacts other core positive loops in the game that it is a given in terms of a goal.

‘The more GW2 can do to make itself utilize that world and expand the content in there, the more people are going to be happy with horizontal progression and new experiences, rather than chasing higher stat gear.’

Chris

Yoh.8469:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

VOLKON.1290:

Hey Chris, welcome back!

Although it’s not relevant to the progression system being discussed, have you seen the “Let the night be nighttime” thread yet? I added a thought in there as to how we could use making the dark darker to enhance the overall game play. It may be worth your read.

Thanks!

I saw it last night while I was reading the forums in bed but that was the one topic I didn’t read, sorry.

I will read it tonight but based on what you just said I am very intrigued and can imagine what the content will be (-:

Chris

Nah, don’t be too kitten yourself mate.
Trying to read through all of this is a full time job in and of itself. I just can’t keep up even with all the time I have, so your a bloody trooper to have been able to keep up.

Just don’t burn yourself out mate.

Thanks Yoh I appreciate your care and that of others, but the CDI is ultra important to GW2 and Arena, plus I really like being part of it all.

Chris

Please, let’s wait for official information about this subject. Someone posts his/her speculation and sometime, in coming months, someone else said “I saw it on the official forums” without realizing the alleged information did not come from an official source. A forum comment by a player isn’t the same as an official statement, as I’m sure you all understand.

The forums are a wonderful place for players to help one another, but many things need an official response… or, in this case, there is not official (and therefore viable) response yet available.

Thanks for understanding.

phenom.6127:

I am posting for my friend who has not been able to access his account for the last 6 days and he has submitted two tickets during that time with no followup. his ticket numbers are #241860 and #258129. His email that he has been using for the game was an email given to him in college and so the email became inactive 6 days ago. He’s trying to change to the email [[[redacted for security]]]. And his Display Name is the [[[redacted for security]]].

He has already sent the other information in the emails to your support staff

Hey Phenom,

I know you want to help your friend, and I’m sure we can get this sorted for him. But please never include sensitive information like an email address in a forum post. I redacted all that stuff, including his display name.

An agent just looked at the ticket, and it should be resolved very soon.

VOLKON.1290:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

VOLKON.1290:

Hey Chris, welcome back!

Although it’s not relevant to the progression system being discussed, have you seen the “Let the night be nighttime” thread yet? I added a thought in there as to how we could use making the dark darker to enhance the overall game play. It may be worth your read.

Thanks!

I saw it last night while I was reading the forums in bed but that was the one topic I didn’t read, sorry.

I will read it tonight but based on what you just said I am very intrigued and can imagine what the content will be (-:

Chris

Actually, look at this one instead People are starting to add some brilliantly creative ideas to it.

Ok will do.

Chris

Update 13 December 2014

232347 – Resolved
237654 – Resolved. Password was reset today. Information sent to the account owner, as always.
242351 – Agent responded yesterday and awaits a reply.
228533 – This should be reviewed today. Sorry for the delay.
235962, 217881, 217896, 232743, and possibly others – An agent is reviewing this today. With multiple contacts and personal security issues, I want to be sure this is managed properly, so thank you for your patience.
243843 – I asked for an agent review today.
241165 – I asked for an agent review today.
245045 – This has been answered fully and accurately and the decision will not be changed.
227267 – I responded to your ticket. You then created a new ticket. Please work with me in the first ticket so I can understand what happened.
247685 – Your ticket will be handled in the future.

• Some tickets will require extra time because they are very complicated. Please continue to discuss these matters with the Support Team to reach the best resolution.

• Please also note that botters and gold sellers (RMT workers) file appeals, too. We will not reinstate accounts found to be involved in these offenses. Those listed as “final response” it will not be reviewed again.

If your ticket is at least three days old, and if you still need assistance, please post in the  Tickets for Review – 3 days and older [merged] thread, which is here at the top of this forum.

Update 13 December 2014

232347 – Resolved
237654 – Resolved. Password was reset today. Information sent to the account owner, as always.
242351 – Agent responded yesterday and awaits a reply.
228533 – This should be reviewed today. Sorry for the delay.
235962, 217881, 217896, 232743, and possibly others – An agent is reviewing this today. With multiple contacts and personal security issues, I want to be sure this is managed properly, so thank you for your patience.
243843 – I asked for an agent review today.
241165 – I asked for an agent review today.
245045 – This has been answered fully and accurately and the decision will not be changed.
227267 – I responded to your ticket. You then created a new ticket. Please work with me in the first ticket so I can understand what happened.
247685 – Your ticket will be handled in the future.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

@Bezagron – Great work there, the links must have been incredibly finicky to get to work right. Taking time out to say great job with it! Someone remind me to tip him.

Agreed. Bezagron you do so much for the CDI thank you so much.

Chris

Dreaude.9205:

This is my first post in the forums I believe and I am making it because of how much I have enjoyed reading all of your ideas and hope I can contribute to the discussion even in a small way.

I was thinking about the acquisition side of things, specifically the mission based ones revolving either around the orders or a kind of personal quest line to unlock/acquire the desired step in the progression.

I think player triggered dynamic events for single steps in the process of the unlocking could be one option.

DiogoSilva mentioned this in his mini-dungeons post except I am thinking the player currently pursuing mastery etc. would be the Only trigger as opposed to it being a timed event, or the result of an open dynamic event chain. To me, making it something more personal in scale.

As an example:
A character could receive notice of a dangerous risen enemy that has popped up in the Maguma Jungle and the Vigil has asked the Character, as a champion of the order, to go deal with it.

When the player arrives in the area of the report the player would specifically choose to trigger the event. It would be an open event in which other players in the area would receive a dynamic event notice for and can participate in.
The player would receive a completion for the, for lack of a better term, step and the other players participating could receive the usual dynamic event completion rewards.

To try and explain a little further; I was thinking of this simply as a mechanic in how the player could pursue the horizontal progression. I was not thinking of the full system of mechanics that would could be needed or used. I saw a few posts about the different variety of mission types and themes that the player could be required to complete to unlock skills, weapons, traits, armors etc. and I think this could be One way of doing those missions. It might not be for each step, but maybe as the culmination/end of a number of prior steps or the result of meeting certain conditions. One tool in the box so to speak.

The “player events” could not be limited to just Kill X creatures or kill Veteran Y but could use the exiting dynamic event styles such as escorts, collection, scavenger hunts etc. or possibly introduce new ones/hybrids such as a race between an NPC. Through gangs of enemies or not, possibly with a timer: “stop him before he reaches the ship or we’re sunk!”

Players participating in the “player event” could also receive some kind of reward relating to the horizontal progression the triggering player is working on. If for example all the steps are linear they could receive partial credit for that step, or perhaps unlock it for themselves. The dynamic event UI notice could also be updated to so say something to the effect of “CHARACTER NAME is fighting for their life – help them!”

Participation and completion of the player triggered events could also be used as a way to communicate to other players the existence of the horizontal progression that is available them in the future through the completion text. In the case of the Master suggestion, when the player receives their completion notice the text could read “You helped TRIGGERING PLAYER NAME defeat Oogalook The Wrathful and learn their prestige skill” or something to that effect.

One of the reasons this appeals to me is that it gets people, out in the world participating and working together which is one of my favorite things about GW2 and I myself would enjoy seeing that in the horizontal progression. It also has the feel of me affecting the world a little more in that I am making the event happen rather than me responding to the events of the world.

I don’t know what technical limitations this would come up against, or what ramifications this might result in play-wise for all players in the zones, but wanted to try and contribute.

Exciting idea that pulls and builds from the core of the social pillars in GW2.

Chris

Gaebriel.3754:

This got me thinking more on the following, some of which I already briefly mentioned in an earlier post:

Journey Challenge:
A mission directs you to an NPC scout (located at the zone’s entrance or one of the camps) to activate this mode. You remain in the open world, but this mode deactivates all waypoints in the zone and gives you several enemies to defeat and/or places to reach for clues, puzzles and the like. If you die, you will respawn at the scout’s location. That would inject some good old fashioned fear of dying into traveling. This Journey Challenge could be linked to a mission to unlock archetypes.

Additionally, this could be available for every zone as a zone completion challenge mode. You will have to discover the entire zone (again ..!), including the waypoint locations (though they are deactivated) to unlock your zone reward: a themed armour set as well as a page with the lore of the zone, added to your personal ingame Tyria encyclopaedia tab (as mentioned in my earlier post).

Players are rewarded with a title when they complete the Journey Challenges for a group of zones: all Kryta maps, all Ascalon maps, etc. A further title could be rewarded for completing all the zone challenges in the world.

So in short, Journey Challenges:

• Get players into the world and encourage them to traverse the various gorgeous environments of Tyria.
• Instil a sense of progression easily tracked by the already existing map completion meter, and offer a tangible reward for completing it.
• Expand on the Guild Wars 2 core gameplay elements with minimal alterations. The challenges are comprised of elements already in the game, with the exception of UI elements, rewards and deactivation of waypoints on a character basis.
• Could be challenging and potentially time-consuming depending on player skill, but very doable.
• Are fairly long term and give players something substantial to do (unless you’re super hardcore of course).
• Are entirely optional, but give access to titles, fashion and lore.

Hi Gaebriel,

I love how you start with a game play example and then list the mechanics of your design. This is a really good best working practice.

As a player I also really like the design and see it almost like a ‘Grail Quest’ in its most traditional and beloved sense. Something that Chrispy also alluded this design idea to, calling it a Pilgrimage to Enlightenment!

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/48#post3470419

It gets me really excited in terms of a thematic device for horizontal progression that could house a lot of ideas that have been put forward regarding utilization of existing and new content within zones.

I would add including LW into this wrapper however assuming we were able to solve the accessibility problem.

Good stuff!

Chris

Randulf.7614:

All sorted late Sunday night

Please pass on my thanks to the Support Team

p.s. don’t let the extra work gone into sorting the rewards put off doing such a promotion again

Great to hear!

And yes, I believe that these promotions are definitely a worthwhile venture, and I’ll pass along your thoughts (even as one who had a wait a bit, and longer. )

zamalek.2154:

Gulesave.5073:

Current state of the “subclass” discussion:

Those points are a summary of only your suggestion, suggestions (regarding subclasses) I found since Bezagron’s previous summary :

• Septemptus posted about schools
• Chuggs talks about mastery and some unlock options
• Lheimroo suggested using personality traits to derive some form of subclass
• Tobias suggested using the orders as a subclass
• Nike suggests having a switchable trait line
• Nike asks about alts
• Chuggs Grand Journey
• My tweaks to Chuggs ideas

Unlock options:

• Some of the above suggestions involve unlocking as well
• Mikuchan gives 4 ideas and 5 more ideas
• Shiren suggested reusing insignia quests
• DarkWasps housing system
• timmyf’s order missions
• DiogoSilva talks about a new currency
• DiogoSilva’s mini-scenarios (Diogo goes more in-depth )
• adubb suggests making better use of dailies/monthlies
• My synergistic/free-form missions

Thanks both for providing design summaries. When discussions are this involved and threads are this long, initiatives like this really make entering the discussion much more accessible for Collaborators.

Many thanks,

Chris

draxynnic.3719:

When it comes to the idea of subclasses, “advanced professions”, and the like, my suggestion (which I’ve espoused a few times) is the following:

Treat it as a key, not a lock.

Subclasses are a great idea for coming up with themes for new skills and traits, and for coming up with a story that links them. Consider the oft-mentioned idea of a druid subclass for the ranger, for instance. From that theme, you can come up with a set of skills and traits that support that theme (caster weapons with nature-magic-esque skills and traits that support them, for instance) and a story that fits with the theme (a journey of discovery into the culture and magic of the Maguuma druids) along which the player can unlock the new abilities associated with that theme. Similar journeys of discovery could go into Elonian lore for elementalists to be able to become dervishes, or into Cantha for necromancers to be able to learn the secrets of ritualism, just to use a couple of examples – Tyria has loads of cultures and old and new lore that could be drawn on for new themes.

Once unlocked, though, I think the new skills and traits should be able to be chosen using the existing system (or an improved version therof) rather than forcing someone to commit to a specific theme. If the hypothetical ranger wanted to become a full-on druid, that should be their choice. If they just wanted to incorporate a little of their new learnings into their old way of doing things, or mix what they’ve learned from the legacy of the druids with the teachings of the kodan wardens they stayed with last Season of the Colossus, they should be able to do so.

…Snip…

The themes should be a key, providing inspiration for the development team to come up with a set of related skills and traits and a story for how characters can acquire them – not a lock forcing people to only play characters that have been “approved” by the creation of a suitable subclass. Ther’d be no point at which there’s a mechanic where you expressly choose a subclass – instead, you can choose for yourself through choices of skills, utilities and traits how closely you align with a theme. I certainly don’t want to see subclass changes as being another way for people who like experimenting with new builds to be nickeled and dimed and discouraged from doing what they find to be fun.

(On this, I think I’m in consensus with Chrispy and Tobias – I typed this up before reaching their posts on the last page)

*Yes, I made this up just to make the number… but it seems logical that they might include something like Rain in their aspects given the other three. As for how to introduce it – simplest way would probably to make one weapon that represents the Zephyrites in some fashion, and equipping that weapon automatically changes your attunements and linked traits. Believe me, I’d love an opportunity to play a Zephyrite-inspired character, although the mobility would probably need to be toned down substantially…

On order skills:

I’d really prefer not to see skills locked behind orders – or at least, not permanently. For new players, that would raise the spectre of forcing the player to choose between what they want mechanically and what they want for roleplaying reasons, and philosophically I don’t think that’s a choice player’s should be made to make unless it’s deliberately intended as a Faustian compromise of virtue for power. Worse, for established players that have already committed to an order, it’d really suck to have the ideal skill go to a different order, particularly if your original order choice had come close to being a mental coin flip to begin with (as was the case for one of mine – one of my Vigil characters was literally chosen between that and the Priory based on HQ location, which is no longer a significant issue since we can now use the portal of any HQ to get to Fort Trinity).

I could certainly see some being easier for members of one order or another, but I’d rather not see skill access be gated behind something that many people would have decided on over a year ago, particularly for their mains.

On Nike’s thoughts regarding paying for skills or unlocking them through story: That was actually done in GW1 – you could pay for skill unlock packs (primarily beneficial for PvP and heroes).

Hi Draxynnic,

In my opinion this is an excellent focus/paradigm for the creation of sub-classes:

‘Treat it as a key, not a lock.’

Based on the way the professions were built for GW2 I don’t think we would treat sub classes any other way. However your reasoning and points are well made and serve as an excellent guide or talking point should we decide to explore Subclasses in the future.

Thanks,

Chris

Mikuchan.7261:

Nike.2631:

Major bonus points for working in Rooba and C.L.E.A.N. . I strongly approve of building on our existing lore through these new journeys.

I think both Halloween events have shown ways “questing” can be delivered with a GW2 twist. Some of that tracking is managed through Achievements, and a few achievement points along the way is probably a plus.

-snip-

I think we also need to consider something very important that hasn’t come up (that I saw)…

What about Alts?

Once I unlock a Mastery for my Guardian, do I have to repeat that journey on all of my Guardian alts before they can benefit? Because that throws up big “GRIND INCOMING!” warning lights and claxons in my mind.

I had hoped/expected/envisioned that advancing my Renown in an Order would be a shared process for all of my characters in that Order. I hope something similar can be done for class-based progressions.

Thanks! :P

And good point.
The achievement system has been used for similar things.
The biggest problem with using the achievement system is that you can’t repeat quests. This would be fixed by either making some achievements (like quests) character bound or by making some rewards (like recipe rewards from quests) infinitely copyable to all characters account wide.
The last part would solve the Alt issue.

But if it’s not repeatable, you can’t make a new character to re-live the story.

So I think it’s better to make a quest system of it’s own that’s is more streamlined. This would probably also make it easier for ANet devs to create the quests.
The quest log could utilize the personal story window to have a quest tab.
Achievements can obviously still be tied to doing quests, but as a reward for doing them rather than a system.

With it’s own system, you could for example fix the alt problem by having a feature that if you have completed the quest once and the character meets the requirements, you can unlock the reward by other means for example currency. This should be limited to certain rewards, like skills and traits and stuff. For getting items and gold etc you should still have to do the quest.

Basically having other ways to complete already completed content without having to redo it unless you want to.
As a side note, it’d be nice to be able to clear world completion by creating a map for a certain price on a completed character and using it on another character to get world completion, all waypoints unlocked, you get your legendary materials etc.

Some very astute points in this post Mikuchan. You will no doubt be interested to know that we have been working to solve some of the issues you raise recently, and it is worth noting that when a CDI topic is running in parallel with work that is either about to be or already going on in the studio then the particular CDI is even more useful.

Chris

timmyf.1490:

I’ve felt this for awhile, though I still don’t quite know how to phrase it. Wondering if others might have an opinion.

As convenient as I find the waypoints all over the place, I feel like it trivializes much of the exploration we would be having without them.

I’ve suggested zones without waypoints as a way around this. Does anybody else feel the same way? Or am I romanticizing the runs from towns to far-flung locations in GW1?

Edit: should have said this originally, but all the credit to Sir Arthur for expressing my feelings better than I’ve been able to. This post was meant as a huge +1 to his.

Hi TimmyF,

I agree:

‘As convenient as I find the waypoints all over the place, I feel like it trivializes much of the exploration we would be having without them.’

Chris

We agree. There were some PvP-only changes for professions that made sense in a previous meta, but not so much now. I expect we’ll be looking very closely at some of these skills over the next few weeks.

Last Refuge is something we’ve been talking about quite a bit internally, and we certainly don’t like the way it can occasionally unintentionally punish players.

We’d like to keep the minor traits in Shadow Arts thematically the same (stealth based) rather than simply providing boons or something similar. Keep that in mind when you’re suggestions changes for Last Refuge.

Thanks for the feedback!

Yoh.8469:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Yoh.8469:

MRA.4758:

I still think that the “no trinity” approach of GW2 is one of the greatest improvements that the game has brought to the genre. And we are still not completely there: Way over a year after launch some specs still gravely outperform other specs of the same class, thereby already kind of forcing a fixed role on a particular class. And you should know how hard the balance team is working to solve this problem. My fear is that subclassing would just further escalate the situation: Would it really be possible to balance for viable damage, support, and control builds for each and every class/subclass combination? In my opinion, subclassing fits more to a classical trinity based game system, and not to GW2.

Right, so the DPS only system they have now is just so wonderful, and is chock full of build diversity. Oh wait….
And I think you missed the point, what Arenanet were trying to do wasn’t so much to get rid of the Trinity, but replace it with their own version of one that was more diverse and less crippling then the original holy trinity. DPS-Control-Support.

They however failed to do this, and created a system where you effectively are only a DPS, and everything else is a side dish. In fact in most modes of play, it’s Zerkers or go home.

While you can play with different builds, the game punishes you for it pretty much. You always going to be less effective then your pure DPS counterparts.
Not to mention it’s a very isolating and solo experience by design, which clashes head on with their more collaborative multiplayer events and scaling.

-
I do give them credit for doing well with just one type of play, but you can’t ignore the great whopping problems that come along with it.
Not to say that a sub-class system would fix that, thou I wouldn’t dismiss it out of hand based on assumptions. But it possible to begin addressing some of the issues, depending on how it is executed.

Which is the main problem with your argument, you just declare ‘sub-classes’ won’t work, without defining this incredibly loose term that means different things to different people.

You might want to define your terms.

As a point to add to this discussion. We have, and are still working on getting the support balance right in regard to the global role balance meta. And it is due to agreement with points made by yourself (and those of others) that we have been working on this.

Chris

Cool beans.
Yeah, I’m aware that it’s being worked on, and I realize that this problem is just going to take time to fix.
It’s a great big honking problem, and you don’t want to cause a bunch more problems for yourself by rushing into it.

I just wanted to point out that while the system you’ve got is very inventive, and works well in a lot of places, it’s not all sunshine and kittens.

‘and you don’t want to cause a bunch more problems for yourself by rushing into it.’

Exactly.

Chris

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Note I am currently waiting for Teq to spawn with my guild and therefore will probably disappear soon (-:

Chris

Remember your training.

. . . trip the charr running away next to you so you can get away.

. (-: .

Chris

timmyf.1490:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Many have mentioned giving info on the relative weight of each idea that is put forward, we should do this after this phase but to be honest (having given it a lot of thought) I wouldn’t want to see this weighting get in the way of great ideas.

So this comment from awhile back stuck out to me. I think we’ve got plenty of ideas here, with Housing, Subclasses, Order Missions, new weapons/traits/skills/races, and more all having a lot of discussion.

The weighting, therefore, probably isn’t going to cause much trouble at this point. What it might do is allow us to consider some tradeoffs…

Suppose a reasonable housing system requires 120 man-weeks of work. (In reality, I’d expect it to be far greater, but bear with me.) That might make housing seem less attractive if we find out we can get Order Missions for 60 man-weeks and a new weapon for each class with another 60.

I am aware that estimating development efforts to that level of detail requires a pretty thorough proposal ahead of time, but even a semi-realistic ballpark could provide for some useful discussion.

As always, this is both your game and your initiative, but for my part, I think it would be a worthwhile next step.

Yep i think that is a good point.

Note I am currently waiting for Teq to spawn with my guild and therefore will probably disappear soon (-:

Chris

Yoh.8469:

MRA.4758:

I still think that the “no trinity” approach of GW2 is one of the greatest improvements that the game has brought to the genre. And we are still not completely there: Way over a year after launch some specs still gravely outperform other specs of the same class, thereby already kind of forcing a fixed role on a particular class. And you should know how hard the balance team is working to solve this problem. My fear is that subclassing would just further escalate the situation: Would it really be possible to balance for viable damage, support, and control builds for each and every class/subclass combination? In my opinion, subclassing fits more to a classical trinity based game system, and not to GW2.

Right, so the DPS only system they have now is just so wonderful, and is chock full of build diversity. Oh wait….
And I think you missed the point, what Arenanet were trying to do wasn’t so much to get rid of the Trinity, but replace it with their own version of one that was more diverse and less crippling then the original holy trinity. DPS-Control-Support.

They however failed to do this, and created a system where you effectively are only a DPS, and everything else is a side dish. In fact in most modes of play, it’s Zerkers or go home.

While you can play with different builds, the game punishes you for it pretty much. You always going to be less effective then your pure DPS counterparts.
Not to mention it’s a very isolating and solo experience by design, which clashes head on with their more collaborative multiplayer events and scaling.

-
I do give them credit for doing well with just one type of play, but you can’t ignore the great whopping problems that come along with it.
Not to say that a sub-class system would fix that, thou I wouldn’t dismiss it out of hand based on assumptions. But it possible to begin addressing some of the issues, depending on how it is executed.

Which is the main problem with your argument, you just declare ‘sub-classes’ won’t work, without defining this incredibly loose term that means different things to different people.

You might want to define your terms.

As a point to add to this discussion. We have, and are still working on getting the support balance right in regard to the global role balance meta. And it is due to agreement with points made by yourself (and those of others) that we have been working on this.

Chris

timmyf.1490:

Chris-

At one point, you had offered to produce an estimate of implementation time/resources for some of the systems, I think. Are you still planning on doing this so we can better prioritize some of these ideas? Or will you be building the proposal based on the discussion so far?

I think some of the ideas here might serve as “quick wins” and that a lot of the suggestions, like subclasses and housing, might fall out of favor when the folks here (who I assume are mostly not developers) see how much extra effort those systems require.

Oh, and thanks. I think this has been a very interesting CDI, even if I tend to disagree with a lot of the ideas.

Hi Timmy,

Here is a link to the post in which i discussed the pro’s and con’s of individual feature/idea weighting, as an update for you:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/page/29#post3444858

I can still provide feature weighting insight with the proposal (when it is done- Tomorrow morning) should everyone feel that it would be useful?

Chris

MRA.4758:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Shakkara.2641:

WE DONT WANT SUBCLASSES!

I just want to point out that this is not a particularly collaborative or useful post. Please however don’t take this personally.

While I agree with your position that no one should argue like she is speaking for everybody else, I’d like to encourage you to not discard the problematic points addressed by Shakkara so lightly. I, for one, am also not thrilled at the thought of a subclass specialization system for GW2.

There are very valid arguments in Shakkara’s post:

• A subclass makes you follow the template provided by a game designer, instead of helping the player to invent original builds for her character.
• Subclass exclusive content in very inefficient to build since, say, 23 out of 3*8=24 players would not benefit from that content. You should recognize this argument, since this was the exact same reason Anet stated for dropping the idea of profession exclusive skill challenges.
• The “tasks of acquisition” do bear the risk of being fun for the first or second time, but might end up becoming a chore or grind, eventually.

I still haven’t seen a single proposal of a subclass specialization system that actually helps to improve build diversity. From what I have seen it might be far more likely that such a system rather fences you in and forces you to take particular roles. (“hey, bro, if you’re a ranger/druid then you have to make a toughness/healing power build, everything else is just plain stupid!!!1!”)

I still think that the “no trinity” approach of GW2 is one of the greatest improvements that the game has brought to the genre. And we are still not completely there: Way over a year after launch some specs still gravely outperform other specs of the same class, thereby already kind of forcing a fixed role on a particular class. And you should know how hard the balance team is working to solve this problem. My fear is that subclassing would just further escalate the situation: Would it really be possible to balance for viable damage, support, and control builds for each and every class/subclass combination? In my opinion, subclassing fits more to a classical trinity based game system, and not to GW2.

Hence, I would rather like to see a form of horizontal progression that helps to generate more viable spec combinations for all classes, instead of a system that might lock you into a fixed and/or preconceived role.

~MRA

Hi.

I agree with this sentiment as a player to a degree:

‘Hence, I would rather like to see a form of horizontal progression that helps to generate more viable spec combinations for all classes, instead of a system that might lock you into a fixed and/or preconceived role.’

I think you still misunderstand in regard to this comment however:

’I’d like to encourage you to not discard the problematic points addressed by Shakkara so lightly’

Because I respond to a member of the CDI pointing out how to better approach the initiative does not mean that I have not read the entirety of the post. Much of my time is spent reading and thinking about points made by Collaborators and therefore a comment on the Macro that I think is important does not mean that I am not thinking about the Micro.

Chris