Many thanks for the varied and genuinely enjoyable Twitchcon content with a good balance of funny and serious content, and special thanks to Regina, Anatoli and Stephane for being good sports while moderating the chat and letting #Water4Colin and #LegendaryToaster become meme-worthy phenomena. I hope we’ll get to see similar segments in the future, particularly future live performances of “Maklain & The Minstrels”.
Showing Highly Rated Posts By Kossage.9072:
I’d like to ask people discussing the difficulty and accessibility of raids to start a new topic on the subject so we can keep this thread on track. This thread is about raid narrative and lore, after all.
With that said, thanks for coming to us with this information, Bobby. I appreciate your communication on the subject and clarifying things for people who may have been confused about how the raids fit into the overall lore of Guild Wars 2. I’m glad that my prediction of any potentially crucial lore info from raids being (re)introduced elsewhere now has dev confirmation, as this opens up a lot of possibilities should the events in any future raid(s) also affect events in the open world.
Oh I want dungeons to be more accessible so I can learn story of explorable paths but nobody wants me in party in my Nommad’s gear and got kicked because I don’t know where to stack or skip in Arah. I don’t have time to learn from youtube because I have 4 children and work 12h/day…
/sarcasm mode off
Even if your statement was sarcastic, ironically enough there’s actually a pretty salient argument buried deep within about dungeons being accessible. Ín my opinion dungeon story modes should be soloable because out of all the instanced group content they’ve provided the most crucial lore to GW2 experience about the adventures and eventually re-bonding of Destiny’s Edge (which includes some huge chunks of character development for each DE member; see for example Caithe finally stepping out of the shadow cast by Faolain, or Logan and Rytlock finally forgiving one another) as well as us confronting (and in a select few cases finishing off) key villains from Personal Story such as Caudecus, Kudu, Faolain and Gaheron who would’ve otherwise remained loose ends in lore.
Thankfully at least Arah story mode is soloable now so people don’t have to team up with others to finish their Personal Story if they don’t want to (as dungeon story modes in general seem to attract less people to them nowadays than explorable paths based on what I’ve seen on LFG over the past few years and even in these past few months after the most recent dungeon rewards revamp).
Because fewer players went to experience the dungeon stories, they missed not only important moments with said villains but also failed to bond with Destiny’s Edge during their trials and tribulations, which hurt the narrative on their side especially for that big payoff later in the Personal Story. Luckily the same is not the case with raid lore thanks to Bobby’s statement that any crucial information learned from raids will be delivered to players via other means in Living World season(s) and whatnot if needed, so the developers have learned their lesson about what lore to gate behind group content and what to keep more accessible to players.
How raid and non-raid lore will link eachother? We will see in LS3 as raid lore is brand new and there are no back-references (apart ref to GW1).
Actually there are quite a few references to Heart of Thorns, most notably its ending, in the two raid wings that we’ve seen so far. For example, a bandit journal and Squad Leader Bennett reference the fallout of Mordremoth's defeat in Dragon's Stand which agitated the spirits, and players encounter Mordremoth's lifeless vine which further solidifies the fact that Mordremoth is dead and not just faking it. This proves that the events in the raid take place after HoT story and are thus deeply linked to what happened before in the GW2 narrative.
Yup, the only ‘lore’ you might miss by not fighting the actual bosses is some meaningless boss banter to give them some personality and vague hints at what the notes and environment proceed to explain in a crystal clear manner.
I’ve seen quite a few comments like this both here and on Reddit, and I feel I must chime in on this subject which is very dear to my heart as a player interested in Guild Wars 2 lore. I’d argue that people, who don’t play through raid content and only appear after the instance has already been cleared, do miss out on lore. There’s more lore in the raid than just the spoken exposition at the end of Salvation Pass or the written contents of the scattered journals.
The raid team delivers the narrative in many other ways as well as per Guild Wars tradition and have even invented a new, exciting way to do so which is currently exclusive to raids (I hope we’ll see them expand that great narrative concept to other group content like fractals etc. if possible). Allow me to list a few of these:
1) Interaction between raid squad members
This is arguably the most innovative thing in raids narrative-wise and of which Bobby and team should be rightfully proud as it continues from what we’ve seen with HoT when our player characters first spoke in the open world.
Basically player characters in the raid squad comment on what they’re seeing in the raid based on their race. It’s likely even affected by gender and profession as well; it was stated in a guild chat episode about raid narrative, I believe, that the team had taken into consideration making distinctions between players if a raid squad consists of, say, ten female humans as opposed to members from each race.
Sadly we’ve yet to see any recorded ambient dialogue from such “unique” party compositions; I for one would be very curious to see what the banter between, say, a squad of ten male sylvari would be like and if we’d hear the same male voice or slight alterations to tell them apart, and if Bobby and co have truly been crazy awesome enough to actually add all those variables into the dialogue triggers and how many variables actually exist in the data. Maybe that’s a job for that_shaman or other data miners to dig up all those dialogue variables unless Bobby’s kind enough to expand on the ambient dialogue concept here in this thread as I think such a great concept is worth talking about…
Having the player characters banter and make comments based on their race deepens the immersion and makes the characters, well, actual characters who are part of the world and lore of Tyria instead of being mere pixel puppets that we direct to the next objective. Not only that, but there are little touches here and there in the dialogue that further make the characters feel more alive and which people won’t get to experience if they join a cleared instance. Hearing how an asura PC reacts to, say, Slothasor compared to other races, or hearing the PC being embarrassed about being turned into a slubling during battle and telling other squad members never to mention it in discussions again provides some lighthearted moments in what is otherwise a rather dark narrative.
Unfortunately this is the one narrative thing in my list that players would miss out on even if raids were given an easier “solo mode” as I don’t think there’s any feasible way in-game to replicate the banter between player characters or all the race variables therein (e.g. ten female humans) for a single player experience.
2) Storytelling via music
Raid wings have presented us with unique tracks for the bosses which we’ve yet to encounter elsewhere in GW2. Players won’t get to hear these tracks in-game unless they go to raids. As these tracks only play during boss battles, any music lover entering a cleared raid instance will miss out on some pretty interesting musical narrative. Thankfully fans have uploaded these tracks to Youtube (I still wait for Maclaine Diemer to upload the raid tracks with official titles to Anet’s Soundcloud once/if he has the time). However, i’s not quite the same as if you hear the tracks in-game similar to how “Mordremoth” is a lot more exciting while fighting against Mordremoth than hearing it on the soundtrack out of context.
Not only that, but some of the raid tracks may even provide some musical clues similar to how Mordremoth’s Theme was teased in the “Tower of Nightmares” track all the way back in Living World Season 1. For example, the theme accompanying Vale Guardian appears to slyly reference a variation of what I’ve nicknamed the “Tyria Ascendant” motif (we hear the motif e.g. in Auric Basin in the track “Glint’s Legacy”, in sonic battle against Mordremoth’s Theme in the “Mouth of Mordremoth” where we fight for Tyria’s future, and more curiously at the end of the final cinematic of HoT story where we hear both the Tyrian motif and Mordremoth’s Theme playing side by side when something significant happens, which I believe foreshadows events to come in Season 3). The use of a variation of this motif, unless this is Diemer dropping us a musical red herring, could hint towards the Vale Guardians’ original purpose being more benevolent as we only ever hear variations of the “Tyria Ascendant” motif when it’s in relation to Glint’s (a good person) overall plan for the salvation of Tyria (Exalted, the egg, defeating Mordremoth etc.).
3) Bosses
Although the journals do provide some insight into the nature of the bosses encountered in the raid, facing the bosses themselves and keeping an eye out for visual/audio cues also provides further clues which the journals might’ve only hinted at (if at all). Here are some examples:
a) Vale Guardian
Not only the look of this boss but also the music track, as discussed above, provide hints at its origin, shedding light to the mystery of this particular bit of lore.
b) Gorseval
It’s one thing hearing about this abomination and another thing facing it and seeing just what happens when spirits merge together to protect themselves. Gorseval’s lines further give insight into this construct’s psyche and what its goals are, which are only ever hinted at in a roundabout way in the journals.
c) Sabetha and her cronies
During this fight we learn that there’s conflict between Sabetha and some of her minions, and we learn a bit more about Knuckles than the little tidbits some of the journal entries reveal elsewhere in the raid wings.
d) Slothasor
Here we get first hints at the overall connection between the raid and the current open world events. We learn that uncontrolled magic can mutate an ordinary being and turn it into an unstable hybrid monstrosity as seen with how Slothasor was an ordinary sloth which began mutating into a sort of wurm due to proximity to ley energy as seen by its offspring, the "slublings". This ties into what we see in the current ley line events if you let the event fail by allowing the dragon minions to absorb the rampant ley magic and what happens to the champion which emerges as a being called an aberration and which, if not killed within a time limit, ends up collapsing as the magic within it consumes it, which proves that beings unable to hold magic within them will not only undergo drastic physical and psychological changes but eventually perish from the burden of magic.
e) Matthias Gabrel
With Matthias we learn a few things during the fight. We learn that he's a true fanatic as he actually quotes lines spoken by a high-ranking White Mantle member from GW1 as an added bonus to GW1 veteran players, he reveals that our sacrifice will bring "Him" aka his master life, which further gives credibility to the hints we've already found in journals about the existence of this "Him" character who may or may not be Lazarus the Dire. We also see how unstable Matthias's psychology becomes as he's consumed by the magic within the Bloodstone and turns into a hulking abomination for the second phase of the fight just like we've seen happen with Slothasor in the raid and the affected dragon champions in the recent ley line events. This further links him with what happened with Randall Greyston in Arah explorable path 4 where we likewise witnessed an individual being consumed and transformed by the Bloodstone's magic.
All of the above show that a player not encountering/fighting the bosses will miss out not only on cool boss mechanics but also on some lore, some of which may play a key role in future storylines (notably the effect of rampant magic on beings unable to contain it as we’ve seen with the ley line events in the open world recently).
4) Environmental storytelling
As Daniel Dociu, Studio Art Director for Arenanet, has told us time and time again ever since the game’s launch, Guild Wars 2 thrives on what he calls environmental storytelling, i.e. using the environment to enhance the narrative and provide clues which help tie lore stuff into a larger whole. As an example of this, in the open world we have areas in Auric Basin turning more and more golden the more pylons we activate, which gives players actual visual clues of how much they’ve overcome Mordremoth’s corruption and how strong the Exalted have become.
Raids continue this trend by using the environment as a storytelling tool as the locations’ look may change significantly depending on at what point in the raid story you are. For instance, in Salvation Pass players witness strange weather phenomena and only learn gradually that it's all caused by Matthias losing control of Bloodstone magic and that the weird weather only calms down after Matthias has been slain. This kind of information isn’t available in post-battle instances when the environment appears calm, and thus players joining cleared instances miss out on this key reveal that the power of magic not only affects living beings via mutation and strengthening them to absurd levels but also changes and shapes the very environment and weather, which further gives credence to what we learned in Season 2 that too much magic being unleashed into the world without great beings like dragons balancing it will lead to Tyria's destruction, which will be one of the overarching storylines in Season 3 and beyond due to our emphasis going to Glint's child and the fallout of two Elder Dragons' deaths if we don't replace the dragons we've slain.
All of the above points (squad interaction, music, revelations during boss fights, environmental storytelling) thus contribute significantly to the raid narrative and shouldn’t be overlooked as they’re all part of a larger whole that is the raids. To get the most out of the experience lorewise and see all the narrative hints Bobby and company have seeded throughout the raid wings, players need to play through the raids or else they’ll only get a fraction of the overall experience (the stuff that people have posted about before which are journals, lore stuff at the beginning of instances, and the cinematic/NPC exposition at the end of Salvation Pass).
I completely agree. Scarlet was more accomplished because the plot forced it to happen, it wasn’t a well constructed outcome given how many allies had to hold the idiot ball, or how many factions were written into uncharacteristic alliances for Scarlet’s convenience. Scarlet’s arc was poorly constructed and delivered and in hindsight you can see it’s a framework of “she needs this tech and this tech” that wasn’t fleshed out enough. Colin has even said, the goal all along was the destroy Lion’s Arch, which implies the reason (ley line clusters) was made up to justify the conclusion.
Still, she did succeed and that makes Zhaitan (and other EDs by association) look bad. Zhaitan didn’t accomplish much during its time in the spotlight (in Sea of Sorrows it has more impact getting out of bed than it did during the Personal Story). If a single sylvari can impact Tyria almost as much as an ED, the EDs need to raise the bar.
I believe the reason these factions had these so-called lore-breaking alliances was because Mordremoth was already spreading his influence through Scarlet, her champion. He is the Dragon of Mind, after all, so persuasion/intimidation played a large factor there. Just listen to this older LW Season 1 recap video from Anet where it’s specifically stated that “[Scarlet] seduced the Nightmare Court and deceived the krait into an uneasy alliance.” Also note how she threatened to kill the Aetherblades and replace them with holos in one of the holo-recordings if they didn’t obey her, or how she addressed the krait who questioned her about delivering on her promises. How could a lone sylvari make pirates, who outnumbered her, fear her so much, how did usually misogynististic/xenophobic factions like the Flame Legion and the drege side with her, how did she know where to seek for the artifacts which the krait craved to earn their oratuss’s favour, what could she have said to “seduce” this splinter group of the Nightmare Court who were already masters of the art and who saw Scarlet as not one of their own?
One might say “bad writing”, but I say it’s foreshadowing that it was all Mordremoth all along, and him being the Dragon of Mind, having knowledge of the world’s ancient secrets, and knowing which buttons to push gives us enough of a handwave to justify Scarlet’s successes with forming the Anti-Pact.
As we saw by the end of S1 with the Scarlet’s death cinematic , we have both visual and aural confirmation that Scarlet was little more than a puppet for Mordremoth by the end similar to how the Twisted Marionette was a puppet for her. We see the mad grin on Scarlet’s corpse before the Breachmaker hits the ley line, thus completing her objective for her master at the expense of her life. Note how Scarlet’s leitmotif fades away and is totally overcome by Mordremoth’s leitmotif in that cinematic as we follow the redirected leyline to the Heart of Maguuma into the mouth of the very Elder Dragon who was behind Scarlet’s actions all along.
If anything, Scarlet’s actions proved that Mordremoth is as big if not a bigger threat than Zhaitan was by now if his minions alone can already bring so much destruction in their wake. She brought LA down, disturbed DE, and left Viathan Lake a toxic waste, and she was only a dragon champion. Ditto for Shadow of the Dragon, another champion, who delivered a devastating blow to the Pale Tree, allowing Mordremoth to use the cracks in her defenses to start seducing sylvari to join his army and potentially depriving the Pact of a fifth of its forces while also subsequently bringing the mighty Pact fleet, which had been so effective against Zhaitan’s army, down in an instant. These make the actions of Risen minions like Mazdak the Accursed and Labwan the Deceiver look rather pathetic in comparison and show that Mordremoth is being more active and far more cunning than Zhaitan was.
So no, I don’t think Scarlet makes EDs look bad in comparison. Her and the Shadow of the Dragon’s actions prove by association that Mordremoth, their master who was pulling their strings, is now the biggest threat to the existence of Tyria and the most dangerous Elder Dragon the heroes have faced so far.
I do agree, though, that parts of this story could’ve been told better. I would’ve wanted to see more interactions between Scarlet and her evil faction leaders in some way instead of the snippets we got to witness via holo-recordings. It would’ve helped sell how cunning Mordremoth was in making these factions work for him and his champion. But I understand the writers were in a tricky spot there; if they showed too much, more people would’ve likely figured out who the entity really was, and they wanted to keep it a mystery until the finale.
(edited by Kossage.9072)
Thanks for posting this topic, Mo. The way I see things, I do think the team should reconsider the “boob-plate” option at least for female charr, the reason being that it goes against the original artistic vision for the race as explained by the artist Kristen Perry who was responsible for the female charr look among other things in the game. I’ll provide the full quote from an old interview for context with the notable part (which some posters have already paraphrased in this thread) in bold:
Kristen Perry on the Artistic Origin of the CharrKristen Perry was the character artist who volunteered to craft a viable design for the female charr in Guild Wars 2. The female of the race had not been seen in the original game, so creating a concept that was both recognizably female and recognizably charr was a challenge.
Q: Kristen, can you talk a little about the different approaches you tried out for the female charr before settling on the final design?
Kristen: As a team, we had many discussions regarding the direction of the female charr, and a lot of that back-and-forth was in the form of thumbnail sketches and theoretical debate. These discussions centered around the tension between making the female charr attractive to the playerbase while still making it look like part of the same race as the male charr.
Much of the problem was in making the female charr more universally attractive, which leans towards a more human appearance. Those initial designs explored the tension between an acceptable human notion of beauty and an animalistic design that is cool, but just too “creature” for the average player to find engaging. This exploratory process brought about one model design that was indeed more humanoid and catgirl in appearance. It had the back leg joint articulation of the charr, but stood much more upright, had a human neck, slender arms and almost hand-like paws—and, yes, breasts. The problem with this design, though, was we were trying to find a solution between both goals, which meant we didn’t really satisfy either. The human part of our charr catgirl wasn’t human enough to be cute, and the charr part of her wasn’t charr enough to be fierce, let alone look like a female of the same race. So while this experiment was very important for visualization, in the end it didn’t give us the result we wanted.
By this point we knew we didn’t want a catgirl, but there was still another conundrum to solve. The males of the charr race are large, overly muscular, brutish, and monstrous. We couldn’t give the female of the race the same hulking masculine proportions, because then there’d be no real way to see any gender difference. But how do you make a smaller, less muscular, less imposing member of the race feel just as powerful as their male counterparts?
Q: So how did you strike that balance and create something that was both feminine and charr-like?
Kristen: Well, when I started designing the female charr, I definitely wanted her to feel just as fierce as the male of the race. She had to feel sleek and agile while at the same time have an appearance of strength and power. By thinking in terms of movement, it became clear the answer was in optimizing nuances. Yes, she had to be large and robust like the male, but we could tone down the testosterone by really extending her body lines to gracefully flow from the top of her head to tail tip.
I didn’t see any reason whatsoever to give her less clawing power, so I rebuilt the sabers on her hands and feet and brought out the padding design. The face and horns were designed with style and movement in mind, but also incorporated markedly more feminine cat-like features instead of the more monstrous male features, though there will be those options too. The horns don’t have a particular direction to denote gender; they just have to look cool. The female’s tail, however, has long hair. This was a very specific thing I wanted to include, as I love the sweeping feel to the long hair, and it’s an easy detail to note from behind in telling whether the charr is male or female.
Finally, there was the matter of the chest. It really didn’t make any sense to have boobs on a charr female, particularly with all the effort we took to make her sleek and fierce. We thought they should have no breasts at all or at least hide them under some fluffy fur. Above all else, we needed to be true to the race, of course! There was still some debate, however, so I gave them a choice: either be subtle and downplay the breasts (it wasn’t a point of the race, anyway) or go full-on realistic. Yes, that’s right—none or six!!
But really, the armor augmentation required for six boobs would be just as ridiculous, so none it was!
(Source)
I understand that Kristen is no longer working for Anet according to her LinkedIn profile, and we don’t really know who has stepped into her shoes regarding future charr and sylvari aesthetics (among other things) and if her vision still counts now that it’ll be in someone else’s hands. Still, I feel that Kristen brought up some notable points for why the “boob-plate” for charr females wouldn’t work due to the race’s biology and overall design aesthetics which Guild Wars 2 wanted to convey at launch and that it would be better for the lore of the game to continue on the path she and other artists set back then unless there’s a really compelling reason to go against it now.
Just my two cents.
So, I watched the interview of the composers Maclaine Diemer and Lena Chappelle in the “Bells and Whistles” section of Points of Interest episode 32 and listened to the two preview tracks for Heart of Thorns. For reference: Diemer’s track, and Chappelle’s track. Although Chappelle’s track is just as interesting and beautiful as Diemer’s for various music and lore reasons, for the purpose of this topic I’ll focus on Diemer’s track.
What caught my interest was that these weren’t just any tracks but actually hints at content we’ll experience in the maps that go past Verdant Brink. Diemer’s description of his own track, in particular, gave us some interesting if vague hints. I’ll provide an edited transcription below:
Maclaine DiemerMy track is pretty dark, I would say. It’s not scary; it’s more mysterious. And it’s the theme for an area. It’s very mysterious, it’s kind of expansive. It’s really difficult to say anything without giving it away. It’s that intangible thing when you hear it, you’ll know the feeling that it’s supposed to evoke in the map itself. It’s something I feel the music captures if I can kind of toot my own horn a little bit. (Source)
The comment itself may not reveal that much but when combined with the musical tapestry of the actual track it’s referring to, it made me wonder if Diemer’s actually coyly referring to us encountering Malyck’s Tree aka the Pale Tree’s sister who was hinted at by the existence of the sylvari Malyck in one of the early sylvari story branches in Personal Story. What if the track is the music played at Malyck’s Grove?
Diemer’s preview track has a rolling rhythm reminiscent of the Mordrem track from Living World Season 2 albeit not the exact same motif but still stylistically similar enough to draw attention to it. Unlike a track like the Newly Awakened which foreshadowed the sylvari/mordrem connection to Mordremoth by using a slightly modified variation of the Mordrem theme underneath the track’s main melody in the second half of the tune (from 0:55 onward…yes, that’s some clever writing by Chappelle right there referencing Diemer’s mordrem theme in a more “innocent” way!), Diemer’s preview track for HoT may be thematically referring to the Pale Tree herself.
The echoing piano used in Diemer’s preview track is stylistically quite similar to the use of the same instrument in not only the “unofficial” sylvari theme “Fear Not This Night” but also Diemer’s own piece of music for the Pale Tree Elevator and Jeremy Soule’s music for the Omphalos Chamber in the Grove. There aren’t really that many notable instances where this keyboarded, echoing piano effect is used in GW2 tracks outside sylvari-related stuff, so using a similar effect for Diemer’s HoT preview track is very suspicious to me and does raise questions if this is indeed subtle musical foreshadowing for us encountering Malyck’s Tree just like Diemer and Chappelle thematically connected Mordremoth to certain characters, locations and events in LW Seasons 1 and 2 via various thematic uses of the Mordremoth theme in past music tracks.
If this is indeed musical foreshadowing, it raises some interesting questions about the present state of Malyck’s Tree as well as Malyck and his people. By Diemer’s words, the preview track is meant to be dark and mysterious but not scary (not in a way the Tower of Nightmares was, and I’d argue that ToN was yet another sister of the Pale Tree for various reasons after a recent revelation of a certain tree in Verdant Brink from BWE2, but that’s a discussion probably better suited for another topic). Could this mean, then, that Malyck’s Tree hasn’t yet fallen under Mordremoth’s power but is nevertheless in grave danger due to proximity to the dragon assuming it wasn’t discovered by the Shadow of the Dragon?
There’s a sense of sadness and urgency in the string and piano writing in Diemer’s preview track not to mention the constant rhythmic movement underneath, which give the track a kind of haunting feel as it’s tugging at your heartstrings. To use poetic terms, if the Pale Tree is supposed to musically and visually represent light/day and the Tower of Nightmares represents darkness/night, perhaps Malyck’s Tree represents shadow/twilight with a more grey view of things at the threshold of the two? To quote Fear Not This Night,“Though shadows fall, still the stars find their way”, so there may be a glimmer of hope left for Malyck’s Tree even in these dark times, and Diemer may just have musically hinted at such story development.
Your thoughts?
(edited by Kossage.9072)
Soule’s music for GW and its sequel didn’t quite resonate with me with a couple of exceptions. I considered whether his way of using the sampled instruments has something to do with it as the samples tend to rub me the wrong way. Perhaps they would benefit from being performed by an actual live orchestra as synthetic strings hardly ever sound “good” to my ears as they lack the organic feel.
The samples used by Leif and Maclaine can be a hit or miss but I tolerate such use. They’ve provided music which serves it purpose in the game, at times offering us some sweet tracks melody-wise and other times establishing atmosphere, which is important for a game so heavy on atmosphere such as GW2. And yes, it is possible to compose music which is straightforward and not too complex and yet can resonate with you and be aesthetically pleasing even if it isn’t “complex”. Just listen to Zoltan Kodaly’s vocal music, for instance, as an example of how this approach is done right (not that he doesn’t have complex musical tapestry in his repertoire too!). There’s room for different kinds of music out there, for both Hans Zimmer and Jerry Goldsmith, and I’m willing to give our duo a chance considering they’re not solely composers but also work in other aspects of the game too.
As for “A simple iteration over a simple theme. It’s not composition.”, I’d like to point out that several recognized bigshots in music (Sibelius, Mozart, Schubert, Prokofiev etc.) have in fact done such iterations during their careers, and the results have often been beautiful works of art. I’d definitely count that as composition, as I would John Cage’s stuff.
The same can be said about “cliched” chord progressions; you can write good and complex music using those; to paraphrase TVTropes, tropes are not bad, and you can use cliches to your advantage as long as you do it well. The end result (how it works in context) is what matters. Just look at James Horner and John Williams and how they pay homage to classical music, sometimes even outright “stealing” material from the old greats, yet they give that music their own stamp. Not that they’re anywhere near Erich Wolfgang Korngold or Miklos Rozsa levels of music mastery, IMHO, but that’s still a commendable effort.
The “Battle on the Breachmaker” track worked for me on many levels. It may have stereotypic chord progressions but its orchestration works for the scenes it plays in, giving us a memorable tune and changing movements. The Yoko Shimomura-like use of piano is a very nice touch, IMHO, and I like how the tune itself has several variations of Scarlet’s theme while turning that somewhat silly theme into a melancholic and chaotic dirge which serves the narrative function of lamenting a lost soul to the entity that ultimately corrupted her and made her commit all those atrocities in the story. Thanks in part to the music in the final battles, I finally felt an emotional connection with Scarlet and could feel sorry for her due to the inherent tragedy of her storyline; the use of the somber piano variation of her theme during the final instance when you finish her off was a very nice touch, giving her a somber sendoff. So in that regard the tune is a success as far as I’m concerned. It may not be Howard Shore or Elliot Goldenthal level of complexity, but it doesn’t have to be as it does what it’s meant to do: evoke emotions, punctuate the final battle and tell a story through music and thematic continuity.
I for one am glad that Anet included Sya in the game and made it in such a manner that has her fit into the lore without feeling superfluous or bringing the topic “in your face”. It was nice following Symon’s journey from previous releases into becoming Sya and how it all tied into the overarching plotline with war in Tyria and its effect on her and other Tyrians.
Whether that means we ever get a transgender character in our close circle of friends seems unlikely since we haven’t even had a black character in the main recurring cast yet; the closest we have of black characters who have stuck around longer than a mission or two has been Ela Makkay who may be E for various lore reasons and hints we’ve received throughout the game (and if so, that will elevate her importance higher from what it’s been in the story so far), but at least we have Marjory with her Canthan ancestry instead of having only whites in the reformed Destiny’s Edge. It would’ve been interesting if Kasmeer had been black or at least a darker skinned Krytan (like the ones seen in GW1) instead of white since ultimately her skin colour didn’t play a part in the story and the devs could’ve diversified the cast a bit from the usual Caucasian fare with such a subtle addition without calling attention to her skin colour, but maybe their decision was dictated by metrics or they just didn’t think of such a possibility of inclusion. Even Anet’s inclusion of mostly women in the recurring cast (which I find a nice take on mostly male-focused fantasy games) is less about diversity and more about IRL limitations of recurring male voice actor availability because originally both Marjory and Ellen Kiel were intended to be men.
As unfortunate as it is, the topic of gender and what it’s perceived to be is still controversial among many people around the world, so Anet likely won’t draw that much focus on any transgendered character to avoid potential controversy among players. Granted, they already have tackled gay stuff with sylvari and our recent female couple, but all of such moments were met with quite vocal backlash on the forums and elsewhere (from the comments I’ve read back in the day), which might discourage the writers from trying such a tactic again. I’d love to be proven wrong but only time will tell how the writers will approach the matter.
All that ultimately matters, however, is how the characters in question are written into the story as the story shouldn’t need to delve deep into gender or sexual orientation issues if Tyria is as free-spirited regarding such as it is hinted to be just like we’re not drawing attention to straight people’s orientations in Tyria. So if, say, the Squad Leader from the raids ends up playing a big role in a raid wing and off-handedly mentions having a loved one of the same sex waiting back home without making the sexual orientation some grand announcement, that’s fine as it’s not hitting you in the head with a hammer about it but still allows some diversity in Tyria while keeping the character awesome all at the same time.
Also, a couple of points I’d like to comment on:
I think the hatred comes from the fact that Trahearne took credit for all of our hard work.
That’s actually not the case as the lore community has corrected people about it time and time again. In the Personal Story Trahearne only ever takes credit from us for one thing and one thing only: the naming of Fort Trinity, which I suspect was a lore oversight from the writers because they needed to cram all the different race/order storylines into a single, Orr-focused storyline for the finale and try to have it all make sense no matter which storylines you took (see, for example, how Almorra is totally open to talks with Order representatives in the finale of the Vigil storyline only for her to change her attitude in the very next mission where all the Order leaders are seen bickering, which is rather immersion-breaking, IMHO).
Honestly, what I dont like is seeing “real” world issues being put into a virtual reality. It kind of eliminates the point of escapism, fantasy is an escape from reality, its designed to avoid these things in the first place. People dont play a fantasy game to see their specific gender/disability/trope being covered, they play it for the very reason that they escape the boundries of any of these things being mentioned or judged, because in the end, a virtual, fantasy world, should in no way or form, represent, the real one.
The thing is, though, that even “escapist fantasy”, no matter how crudely or well written, still tends to involve elements from the real world in some way because the art, writing, voice acting etc. is used to convey that sort of verisimilitude for various reasons, whether it happens accidentally or is in the devs’ interest (e.g. using Roman and Mongol stuff for charr culture, giving specific accents for specific races to convey a certain feel for them derived from our world, see e.g. largos having a Russian accent which makes them sound exotic to the English speaking audience; I’d be really interested in hearing how the localized versions for other languages have tackled the unique accents different GW2 races have and if they follow the English pattern of conveying “otherness” via their own stereotypes).
The world of Tyria is full of symbolism, metaphors and downright references to IRL history and its problematic and celebratory aspects. Take note of, for example, the female charr and their history in the present day and how their rebellion and rise to respect came about from troubled beginnings under the hegemony of the chauvinistic Flame Legion. Heck, there’s even dialogue in the game today which references breeding camps for female charr held in Flame territory (which paints Flame Legion as bad guys we shouldn’t feel guilty taking down), and that’s just the tip of the iceberg regarding topics which the game discusses (some more subtly than others) and which are based on historical stuff from our world.
Whether you look at Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings, Carl Barks’s Donald Duck and Uncle Scrooge comics, the Secret of NIMH (whether the novel or the animated film version) or Richard Adams’s Watership Down among countless other examples, you see each and every one of them having rather subtle references to their authors’ experiences and views of world, regarding politics, gender issues etc.
Simply put, there’s no escaping the real world in “escapist” stuff because as long as people keep creating art, no matter how fluffy said art might be on the outside, that art always reflects the society it’s been created in and the makers’/audience’s values in one way or another, which is what makes fields of study such as film theory, art and comics studies, and comparative literature so fascinating. Games, especially ones created today when the makers have more advanced tools at their disposal and more complex stories to tell and depict via gameplay/art/writing/etc (see e.g. the depiction of PSTD and war crimes in Spec Ops: The Line which is one of the more discussed games out there), are no different. I for one am glad Anet is tackling various issues in their game and how most of the time they’ve done so in a subtle enough manner that integrates such issues into the world and its lore without making them look anvilicious,..at least most of the time.
You know what? There are no transhumans! I demand representation! We need a NPC that has technology implanted in them to make them more than what they where born to be! I want my Cyborg Charr!
It’s easily solved as we already have the tools for that. Grab a transformation tonic that turns you into an Exalted, and you can RP a transcended human/charr etc. After all, in lore the Exalted went through the Forgotten’s trials and a ritual to leave behind their human bodies in order to become the magical, nigh-immortal beings we now know them as. Which makes me have an inkling of which GW1 character their Luminate originally was before being appointed as the leader of the Exalted, but that’s a lore discussion for another day…
Considering that the charr culture is based on a mix of Roman Empire and the Mongol Khanates, it would make sense that some of their music would also be influenced by the music of their IRL sources. They would likely have at least woodwinds, brass and drums for great Roman-style victory parades and for keeping the Legions marching/charging in the rhythm of drum beats. Their deep voices would be perfect for some Mongol throat singing. Jeremy Soule was definitely mirroring Roman tunes/instruments, albeit in a more modernized, movie music style, in his tracks for the charr such as “March of the Legions” and “Charr Triumphant”. Thus in this case I do think the official soundtrack may hint at the potential “war music” charr have.
We hear quite a few musical charr in-game although their songs sound definitely more modern unlike the ancient IRL sources their race is based on. For example, there’s an Iron Legion charr warband which sings a very American-style military cadence, a charr singing what sounds like an American showtune from the 1940s, the (in)famous charr soldier who’s humming a marching tune while bored on watch duty, and a charr cub humming a sweet tune while working on her strawberry patch. These examples show us that the charr value music and the tunes are often related to war, their work, or hobbies.
In game we also learn hints of what the charr consider to be annoying music. There’s an interesting commentary on the Devourer’s Bane track on Anet’s soundcloud page in which the composer Maclaine Diemer explains the following about the music track which is used for one of the devourer-centric events:
“This piece is made up of instruments that are either downright annoying or can be made that way when played poorly: saxophone, bag pipes, harmonium, and harpsichord. It’s also in an odd time signature, 5/4, which is difficult to tap your foot to. To top it all off, the instruments harmonize around diminished chords.”
So from this we might deduce that the above are the musical aspects the charr find annoying since they’ve come up with this particular instrument, melody/chords and tempo mix to lure the devourers to the phonographs.
Donari, the one you’re thinking of is a different NPC.
The OP is referring to this human NPC who you can spot in the background during the LW Season 2 mission “Tracking the Aspect Masters” as he’s watching the player character’s progress from a ledge in the cave. During the release of the episode, there were many speculations on the forum who this person might’ve been, including this thread where the linked screenshot is from.
I still think E might be Magister Ela Makkay for reasons I’ve posted earlier. As for who this Mysterious Stranger might be, we have too little information to really say one thing or another. Whether he’s related to the “New Kryta” (aka bandits working for the White Mantle) hiding deeper in the Heart of Maguuma as hinted by the items scattered in the Silverwastes or if he’s part of something else remains to be seen. Both the identity of E and this Mysterious Stranger are actually some of the plot threads I look forward to experiencing in Heart of Thorns.
If I were to guess the identity of Mr. E, my bet would be on Magister Ela Makkay. If my memory serves me, I think the devs stated in an interview that we’ve already seen E during Living World seasons without knowing who they were, and Makkay has actually been involved as an NPC during many of the LW storylines as one of those people you may or may not have interacted with/noticed.
She’s exactly the kind of character most people would ignore or not even notice, and yet her being a member in the Priory grants her access to information which she can then deliver to us and explain why E is so interested in uncovering the mysteries behind ongoing events. She’s human, so pulling her stunt on Marjory in DR was easy enough, and for added irony she appears to have been Marjory’s superior during her time studying in the Priory, which might explain the description about E’s touch feeling ‘intimate’ during their brief encounter in DR in Marjory’s short story. Makkay was shown to be very interested in LW events, chronicling the Molten Alliance invasion, Bazaar of the Four Winds and Tower of Nightmares among other things during Season 1, and she even granted us access to the Hidden Arcana later in Season 2.
Whether E turns out to be Ela Makkay in the end or not, though, I look forward to learning more about E’s identity and why E’s chosen to stay in the shadows instead of talking to us openly with the intel that has been provided.
(edited by Kossage.9072)
I wonder if Rytlock’s return to the Black Citadel will also address a lingering subplot from Season 2 about Rox and a certain mysterious charr calling himself Monti Scythescrape (if that’s truly his real name). In “Reunion with the Pact” we witnessed Rox and Monti (who shows up as a generic charr soldier and whose name only the charr PC learns after a bit of “persuasion”) talking and not being exactly on the best of terms. Interestingly both of them were quite tight-lipped about how they knew each other and what they were doing, and Rox only ever hinted at some spy stuff in “The Pact Assaulted” before quickly moving on to other topics. We catch Rox lying straight to our face a few times, actually.
Some relevant bits of dialogue from the story instances:
Soldier: Looks like your friend’s coming to rescue you.
Rox: Don’t you have somewhere to be? Move off.PC: Who was that you were talking to?
Rox: Who? Oh, him? Just an old friend, someone I knew from my mining days.
PC: Did he know your old warband?
Rox: Some of them. We all worked the same mine.
[…]
PC: Would it be okay if I met him? A friend of yours is a friend of mine.
Rox: He’s not really anyone. I said "friend, but I meant “acquaintance.” Not worth your time.PC: (if human) Just wanted to say hello. I’m a friend of Rox’s.
Soldier/Monti: Oh, you’re going to talk to me too. (sigh) I’ll only say this once. Even if I had a reason to talk to a stinking gladium like Rox, it wouldn’t be anyone else’s business. Especially not a human’s.
PC: Call her that again and I’ll put you in the ground.
Monti: Oh yeah? Your friend Rox is a f—PC: (if charr) You’re not wearing order or legion gear. Name, rank, and warband, soldier.
Monti: I don’t report to you.
PC: (growl) You do now.
Monti: Sorry. Sorry. Scythe warband…soldier….Monti Scythescrape. I’m going. I don’t want any trouble.PC: By the way, I spoke to that charr you were with earlier.
Rox: He’s not the brightest, I know. I doubt I’ll ever see him again. It was a fluke. Old acquaintances crossing paths. You know.
PC: If he gives you any trouble, you let me know, okay?
Rox: I will. You don’t have to worry about him. I can handle myself.Rox: I don’t think I can go with you, Boss. I have to go back to the Citadel. I’m due for my annual weapons testing.
PC: (if charr) Annual weapons tests? You’re a free agent now. You don’t have to—
Rox: Did I say weapons tests? I meant I have to answer more questions about Rytlock’s disappearance.PC: Where’ve you been lately?
Rox: Oh, um, charr business—you know. Now that I’m a free agent, I need to do tasks for the legion. Deliver a message here, spy on a… You know. The usual.
PC: Has there been any word from Rytlock?
Rox: Not that I’ve heard. I check with the Imperator’s office every time I return to the Citadel, but so far, no one’s seen or heard from him.
It’s been bugging me since I witnessed these dialogues in Season 2. Rox regularly checks with the Imperator’s aka Smodur’s office, likely to report about whoever she’s been spying on? Why would Smodur be using a gladium like Rox for a delicate mission like this instead of one of his trusted legionnaires or even Ash Legion’s brightest, and how does Monti figure into it all? Does this mean the target is someone Rox has easier access to and the target wouldn’t suspect Rox spying on them? Why does Rox need to lie about what she’s up to when talking to the PC whom she should trust to keep a secret at this point? What’s with all the secrecy, and what target would require such a hush-hush approach from her, anyway?
I really hope this subplot won’t be dropped. If there ever came a time to resolve it, it should come by the time we team up with Rox and get involved in Black Citadel politics. It would be the perfect setup not only for checking up with Rytlock but also encountering Monti again.
This mystery reminds me of another unresolved mystery which was about the weird Mysterious Stranger hobo dude we witnessed observing us from a ledge when we were chasing the Aspect Masters and what his significance might’ve been.
Yeah, Caithe fleeing twice without even bothering to give a proper explanation for her actions to my sylvari despite everything we’d been through together seemed way off to me. She probably has a good reason for what she’s doing and not letting Trahearne know the truth about the sylvari, but we won’t find out until later, sadly.
There are also two plot points that Anet may pursue in HoT. We’ve learned from devs that sylvari can misinterpret their Wyld Hunts, and Mordremoth can influence sylvari subtly via the Hunts through which he tries to bypass the sylvari’s mental protection. It wouldn’t surprise me if one or the other plays a part in Caithe’s sudden actions with the egg; perhaps she’s come to realize the full extent of her Wyld Hunt, and Mordremoth will try to trick her in some way later down the line.
The way interspecies breeding has been explained to us by devs in a couple of interviews in the past and how they stated it won’t happen, I wouldn’t expect to see any hybrids between, say, humans and norn or any other race anytime soon if ever. I doubt the devs would change their minds about this unless they could think of a suitably good plot to go with it to add to the lore, and the chances of that are quite slim for the unforeseeable future for reasons that have been stated.
But while we’re on the subject, I could imagine that various hyleks (Central Tyrian hyleks, and the Itzel and Nuhoch of the Heart of Maguuma) might be able to breed with one another depending on how compatible they are by this point in time. Whether that then means that these hylek (frogmen) in general could breed with heket (toadmen from GW1 who appear to be distant cousins of the various hylek and who have yet to show up in GW2) is anyone’s guess. It’s also been stated that Canthan and Krytan tengu as well as the different centaurs from around the world also differ significantly yet each are respectively viewed as ‘cousin races’, so it might be possible for different tengu tribes to breed, and for different centaur tribes to breed given this information. Whether, say, the naga and krait could breed despite their similarities is murky, but my gut instinct would say no until we receive more information about each serpentine race’s origins and if they come from the same ancient source or not as well as how much time has passed since their races going their separate ways (assuming they do share a common origin).
Regarding hybrids themselves, we’ve actually had one notable case presented to us during Living World Season 1’s Tower of Nightmares arc: the Toxic Hybrid which had both krait and sylvari characteristics and which devs told us was a krait in an interview from that period in time. However, given the way the hybrid came out of a pod, quickly developed a sentience and capability of speech as it evolved over the course of the fight from an infant state to adult through its pose, attack and speech patterns, how the tower was said to understand what we were attempting to do, the effects of the poison and attempts at mind control as seen how the Toxic Alliance were affected, as well as hearing Mordremoth’s Theme playing in the soundtrack for the first time, my theory is that this hybrid was less of a modified krait as it was actually a mordrem clone and the Tower of Nightmares was a Blighting Tree (either a fully corrupted minion or one of the seeds where the Pale Tree originated from who was guided to evil by the Toxic Alliance due to ambiguity in the storytelling).
What we learn of the Blighting Trees during HoT’s story and open world events is that the mordrem (to which sylvari belong as per Wynne’s wording in Season 2 although how tied the Blighting Trees are to Mordremoth is ambiguous at best because the Dream and Nightmare shielded sylvari from Mordremoth and thus didn’t originate from the dragon, so the Blighting Trees may simply be beings that Mordremoth corrupted rather than being ‘created’ by it from scratch) take genetic templates of corpses (and in a later HoT story instance from living victims as seen with Logan and Zojja once Mordremoth cracked the code of how to get it done as implied by the vision from Glint’s Egg in Tarir) and use the corpses as fertilizers to grow mordrem which are hive-minded clones of the original.
The sylvari from Pale Tree and Malyck’s Tree differ from this norm, however, which indicates that the two Trees (and other seeds that Ronan discovered in the guarded cave) may have been purified in the past, possibly by the Forgotten, to wait for a later time. This does explain, though, why sylvari are infertile and why only their Trees can produce “offspring”: as purified dragon champions, they’re capable of creating lesser minions but these minions are infertile as is every dragon minion encountered in game so far.
The one curious lore tidbit is why mordrem require a corpse per mordrem born (as per Mordrem Guard dialogue in Auric Basin) while the Pale Tree and likely Malyck’s Tree can produce more and more sylvari without needing corpses to nourish their fertilizing supply. One could theorize that the reason for this is that the Blighting Trees encountered in HoT maps (as well as the Tower of Nightmares) were still juvenile unlike Pale Tree and Malyck’s Tree who were already old enough to not need constant fertilizing to produce minions, but this is likely a mystery that might be explored once/if we return to the Malyck plot and the origins of the Trees and the mystery of the cave in some future storyline.
So, based on this evidence, even the mordrem aren’t exactly “plant hybrids” of existing creatures per se but simply copies and they, too, cannot breed with other creatures just like we’ve learned that all dragon minions are infertile due to the dragon corruption affecting them.
Thanks for sharing! I too enjoy running around the world exploring its nooks and crannies and learning lore from NPCs. Your comments during the video were insightful and funny, and you managed to take quite a comprehensive tour around the city.
Keep up the good work.
Yes, but the Zephyrites didn’t play that big a part in the Scarlet saga in general and were only tangentially related to the other plot which centered on the Kiel/Gnashblade shenanigans in S1, which is why I left them out. The Zephyrites’ importance is gradually revealed in S2, and OP should be able to understand what’s going on there by playing the related S2 episodes without having to know that much about the Zephyrites’ S1 appearance. I feel the Dry Top map’s NPCs and the S2 episodes involving the Zephyrites give a good enough explanation of the Zephyrites and their beliefs to understand the basic gist, and the story progresses naturally from there.
When you face subject aplha for the 1st time and it gets away, Agent Spire says “Well that’s the second ugliest thing I’ve seen today”
What is the first ?? It is driving me crazy and I cant find a solid answer
I’d say that what you quoted is one of the many pop culture in-jokes Anet has filled GW2 with. It wouldn’t surprise me if in this particular case they were referencing the 1960s spy fiction parody TV series called Get Smart where one of the famous catch phrases (and running jokes) was “That’s the second biggest [noun] I’ve ever seen” where people never actually saw/learned what the biggest [noun] would’ve been, hence the joke.
Glad to hear from you, Bobby. I’m playing on EU server (Piken Square).
I think the sylvari revelation works and even if it seems to be at odds with what we currently know about dragon minions (as stated by Konig et al earlier), there’s still lots of uncharted territory out there, and I’m sure the writing team will give us a satisfying lore explanation, hopefully in Heart of Thorns, about the unique minion status of sylvari compared to Mordrem in general and how they can fit into preestablished dragon minion lore so Konig and others who have voiced their concerns over this development can sleep well in the future.
What I like about this twist is that it actually fits into the overarching narrative we’ve had since the Personal Story. We begin in a world where hatreds have been mostly set aside with nefarious factions among each race scheming for their own ends, and we gradually learn that even the “good guys” have some bad or at the very least questionably tasting apples among them who are willing to be ruthless if need be to protect their community’s interests. The threat of the elder dragons is looming but becomes quite real when Zhaitan attacks Lion’s Arch. We manage to make the races work together and form the Pact, and as a side story we also see the racial unification on a smaller scale by reuniting Destiny’s Edge. We defeat Zhaitan, and it seems we’re headed for a brighter future now that we know how to combat the dragons and have people playing nice with each other.
Alas, it’s not to be, as the races quickly become “introverted” again, focusing on their own problems within their borders instead of speeding up the decimation of the greatest threat to everyone’s existence: the dragons. It takes Scarlet forming the Anti-Pact (her alliances) and the rising threat of Mordremoth, as well as some nudging from players, before the racial leaders finally meet in earnest and decide to put some of their manpower and resources on our war effort. We also have Destiny’s Edge 2.0 forming from a younger generation, showing that new heroes rise to meet the challenges among the veterans and we, the players, end up in an interesting spot. On the one hand we’ve been the rookie of Destiny’s Edge, and now we’re the boss of this new guild of adventurers with all the responsibilities that come with it.
Just when everything seems to be going according to plan, things begin unravelling, leaving our future uncertain. Not only does Destiny’s Edge fall apart thanks to Rytlock’s disappearance and Caithe’s dubious actions and the Pact is jeopardized in the assault against a stronger and more devious than suspected enemy, the sylvari race as a whole will be put under scrutiny once their true nature is revealed to the public. The unity of the alliances will be tested, and this leads to what could be Tyria’s darkest hour so far. If the other races stop trusting sylvari and we see in-fighting begin, Mordremoth will have already won. This is our true trial by fire; we either rise or fall together, and Tyria’s fate will be decided in the coming conflict. And the sylvari are in the centre of it all, carrying on the overarching narrative of cooperation and understanding, and friendship, which are key to fighting the coming darkness wherever it lurks. It may sound cheesy, but it’s exactly the kind of uplifting and inspiring story that keeps us going, just like the stories Sam told Frodo during The Two Towers.
This is why the sylvari revelation works so well for me. The Orr campaign and Scarlet saga were mere warmups and foreshadowing for this true conflict where we’ll see if the races of Tyria are truly ready to fight against those who threaten everything they care for as friendships will be tested.
(edited by Kossage.9072)
Here’s a twist: quaggans are the water dragon’s minions.
That would be funny, however the dragons minions cannot be corrupted by other dragons (that is why there are no risen Sylvari), however there are risen Quaggans.
Actually, Kudu’s Monster and Subject Alpha from Crucible of Eternity’s story and explorable modes would like to have a word with you about that. They are, or were, living proof that beings can be corrupted by multiple dragons; in Subject Alpha’s case this gave it the ability to control various dragon minions to do its bidding.
The reason sylvari weren’t corrupted by Zhaitan was because of their link to the Dream thanks to Pale Tree acting as the conduit, which protected them from dragon energy. The whole point of the Shadow of the Dragon’s attack on the Grove in LW Season 2 was to kill the Pale Tree to stop her from acting as said conduit and thus make sylvari more susceptible to Mordremoth’s influence. However, this plan worked only partially as we did manage to drive the Shadow away before it could finish its mission but not before its and its minions’ attack had already severely weakened the Pale Tree, which made the sylvari on the Pact fleet able to be taken by Mordremoth once they crossed into his domain as seen in the episode 8 ending cinematic.
One of the achievements for the “Buried Insight” mission in HoT story (when we first visit Rata Novus) includes finding and talking to an injured Mordrem Guard. Thanks to us being so deep underground, Mordremoth’s call is weaker (as stated by Canach and the sylvari PC), and this also affects the MG who briefly manages to regain his senses and chats with us, expressing horror at what he’s done…until Mordremoth’s call takes over again and we’re forced to put him out of his misery.
The mission proves that Mordremoth couldn’t fully corrupt sylvari; he only managed to invade their minds by using their link to the Dream and Wyld/Dark Hunts (which the Dream/Nightmare gives Dreamers/Nightmare Courtiers) and manipulated them via his siren song to fight for him. His grip on them lessened if they got out of his area of influence (as seen briefly in Rata Novus). This seems to heavily imply that with Mordremoth gone, the Mordrem Guard should return back to their senses now that the Jungle Dragon is no longer sending its call to influence their actions.
The sylvari’s connection to the Dream via the Pale Tree might not be the only reason why Zhaitan or Mordremoth couldn’t corrupt them fully. There’s a high likelihood that the seeds of various Pale Trees (which Ronan found in the cave) may have been purified by the Forgotten, which partly explained why the Pale Tree, while being tied to Mordremoth, didn’t become a Blighting Tree. We also know from Glint’s story that once a dragon minion is freed from dragon corruption via a purification ritual, it cannot be recorrupted again (part of the reason why Kralkatorrik wanted to kill Glint instead of just re-enslaving her under his will again). Perhaps this means that the offspring of freed dragon minions (Glint’s children and the sylvari) can’t be corrupted either, which would mean that Glint’s other children could still plausibly be on the heroes’ side if we ever found them and/or if they hadn’t been killed off by now.
We likely won’t learn the full truth about this matter until we learn what happened with Malyck, his tree and his people (as they seem to not have a connection to the Dream) as well as just what exactly the Dream and the Nightmare are supposed to be since HoT dodged the bullet on both of those dangling plot threads.
1) We just used the same weapon Mordremoth used against the Dream in the retconed Sylvari Personal Story. (we all know it was retconed. It was a Zaithan minion. The Pale Tree states that)
I’m not entirely sure if this was meant to be a retcon. We’ve seen hints ever since launch that there’s more to the sylvari lore than meets the eye, not to mention Caithe’s somewhat cryptic lines throughout and the barest of hints at Mordremoth (via some of Subject Alpha’s attacks in Crucible of Eternity). It’s entirely possible, however, that the circumstances of Caithe and Faolain’s separation and the death of Wynne may not have been fully thought out at launch and were later retrofitted into existing lore.
Lorewise the Shadow of the Dragon thing makes sense, though. The only people from whom we really learn about it are Caithe and the Pale Tree, both of whom, as per Living World season 2, have an agenda to keep the sylvari in the dark about their true origins, so they could’ve plausibly made the Shadow represent Zhaitan who was the more immediate threat due to Risen activity throughout Tyria. We’ve also later been told by devs that Ree Soesbee, who was mainly responsible for sylvari lore at launch, rewrote the sylvari missions over and over again to make them more ambiguous in order not to give away the reveal about sylvari origins.
Are you sure that Mordremoth is really dead ? I’ve see him falling but I’ve never find any corpse :p
Actually, we see his corpse at Mordremoth’s Vantage POI (the top of the big tree where his head is impaled by a wooden spike) at the end of the Dragon Stand meta event where we slay the Mouth of Mordremoth, confirmed by his own dialogue and Laranthir’s dialogue to be a physical manifestation of Mordremoth himself. However, based on Laranthir’s subsequent lines in that event, it appears that the Mouth functions somewhat autonomously from the Mind (which we slew in HoT story) as it keeps regrowing and attacking, but this seems somewhat contradictory to the events of the story instance, so we may need to wait for writers’ clarification on the matter.
However, what would support the assumption that Mordremoth is dead is the huge amount of magic released from his body after we slay his Mind. If Mordremoth wasn’t getting closer to the death’s door, why would he want to let go of so much magic which he had spent all this time absorbing into himself? Surely he’d want to keep it all for himself instead of giving it to his competitors (the egg, his champions, other dragons)?
(edited by Kossage.9072)
The reason we’re not called Commander anymore is because we’re no longer in active duty in the Pact. As Trahearne or one of the other NPCs stated in one of the earlier episodes, we were the first Pact Commander (and recognized for our contributions), but after we stepped down post Zhaitan campaign and went adventuring and pursuing Scarlet, other Commanders have risen to take our spot in the the Pact’s military hierarchy to keep it running. Any reason that any NPC is calling us Commander anymore is because of respect for our past accomplishments which they witnessed firsthand (like Trahearne and Destiny’s Edge), but the Biconics weren’t part of the invasion of Orr and thus have no such excuse.
It does feel weird being called boss, though, but I haven’t been able to think of a better nickname/title yet, so I let my team call me that for now even if it makes me roll my eyes at times.
And while we’re on the subject, I would like to have a stern talk with my successor Commanders in the Pact someday and ask them how a bunch of Aetherblades managed to steal some airships from our fleet seemingly with no effort. I doubt they would have the excuse of being “mesmerized” by Labwan the Deceiver’s little sister or some such…
Funnily enough, there’s actually a possible way for the writing team at Anet to involve Tara Strong as Ceara/Scarlet Briar (or rather, as a kind of “resurrected” version of her) in a future story due to a certain line in Prosperity’s Mystery mission which was likely a lore oversight but which could indeed be expanded on. The notable line goes as thus:
Scarlet Briar: I’ve used a portal to send most of my steam creature prototypes into Lornar’s Pass and Brisban Wildlands. I no longer need them.
The thing is, however, that as far as lore goes, none of the steam creatures seen in Brisban Wildlands actually come from Scarlet’s lab, and the timeline for their appearance in said map wouldn’t fit either as the vanilla game’s Personal Story (and open world) events in Brisban take place when Scarlet has already moved on from creating steam creatures to forming her alliances elsewhere.
The two instances where we see stream creatures in Brisban are:
a) The “Split Second” mission in the the asura Infinity Ball storyline where it was later confirmed in a lore interview that those creatures, alongside the Grand High Sovereign version of the asura PC, did not come from the future but simply an alternate fractal version (essentially the GHS and his lieutenant and the steam creatures there are the Mists’s fractal anomalies showing in Tyria, so no time travel was ever involved, and the GHS simply lied about having come from a possible alternate Tyria’s future).
b) The event “Help Tekki fight off creatures swarming through the asura gate” in Duskstruck Moors during which some steam creatures appear from the asura gate, but it’s implied they’re drawn them from the batch of steam creatures in Lornar’s Pass and aren’t native to Brisban. Besides, if these were the other, Brisban-based batch Scarlet mentioned in her recording, we would be seeing invasions similar to the ones the Lornar batch accomplishes in Lornar’s through their own steam portals, yet we never see any steam portals or steam creature colonies in Brisban.
What this means, then, is that the story has actually yet to address what exactly happened to the batch Scarlet sent to Brisban Wildlands years ago since in the present day the steam creatures are nowhere to be seen in that map invading places unlike their brethren in Lornar’s Pass. Based on how Scarlet says her line, it seems the Lornar and Brisban batches couldn’t have differed significantly in number, and we’ve seen how fast the Lornar batch multiplied and became a threat, so a similar thing should’ve happened in Brisban.
So, here’s one wild fan theory that could’ve happened (assuming the writers didn’t simply make a mistake regarding the Brisban batch’s involvement): what if the steam creatures sent to Brisban Wildlands never stayed there for long but continued on into one of the so far unseen maps (like the map beyond the broken bridge in Northern Brisban where we see a portal into a new map that we can’t interact with even if we made the jump to the other side) and formed their colony there? What if this Brisban batch, unlike their savage Lornar brethren, actually “evolved” in programming and became more civilized (or at least more morally grey), instead opting not to conquer the world but study it and form a civilization of their own?
I could imagine this “good” colony of steam creatures being led by an improved Steam Brain (let’s call it Mother Brain) which could, eventually, build a mechanical steam creature avatar model resembling Scarlet, their “machine mother”, out of reverence for granting them “life” and sentience. This “machine Scarlet” could then be voiced by Tara Strong, thus kind of bringing her back.
If we want to continue with this admittedly stretched train of thought, there’s also something else in the lore regarding Scarlet that’s yet to be addressed. One of the items in the game from S1 actually had Scarlet’s message to Caithe which stated that someday Caithe would understand that Tyria needed Scarlet. What did she mean by that? What if these “good” steam creatures played a part in it? After all, the steam creatures are mechanical and thus can’t be corrupted by dragons or recreated as clones (such as mordrem), yet they’re powerful and sentient so they could be a powerful asset against the Elder Dragons. Back in the Twisted Marionette release we had interesting drops in the game, namely Scarlet’s Lockbox Code Fragment which eerily resembles Scarlet’s iconic cone hairdo. What if that acted as a hint that Scarlet may have uploaded her data into code fragments similar to these which could’ve contained crucial knowledge about her dragon research from the time when she was struggling against Mordremoth’s growing influence over her mind?
Just picture this scene: the Pact Commander discovers the hidden, “good” steam creature community and meets with the machine mother avatar of the Mother Brain in the form of mecha-Scarlet. The machine mother has kept all of Scarlet’s crucial research in her databanks and, after some convincing from the PC, shares this knowledge, perhaps even having the good steam creatures join us in our fight against the remaining Elder Dragons due to the creatures being uncorruptable and very intelligent. That way Scarlet’s prophecy to Caithe would come true in a roundabout way as well as solve the plot discrepancy about what happened to the Brisban batch of steam creatures in one big twist.
Not that I expect the writers to actually do something wild like this, but it is one possible way of doing it given what we know of Scarlet and steam creature lore. I for one wouldn’t mind seeing a “good” version of Scarlet, even if that Scarlet was only a steam creature recreation resembling their revered “machine mother”.
(edited by Kossage.9072)
Hey, and welcome to Tyria! I hope you’ve enjoyed the story and lore so far.
If you want a brief-ish summary of the main storyline of Season 1 (surrounding the main villain Scarlet Briar and her overall scheme) without going through the wiki, I’ve provided it here. I left out some of the subplots from S1 in that summary (mainly the Consortium and Ellen Kiel/Evon Gnashblade stuff), but the Scarlet saga is ultimately what you need to know while going into S2 because S2 continues not long after the events of S1.
(edited by Kossage.9072)
The only link between Mordremoth and the minds of non-sylvari’s is based off of the assumption that Scarlet’s toxin had something to do with Mordremoth.
There’s actually very heavy implication of this.
[…]
While we haven’t had confirmation that the Toxic Alliance are corrupted by Mordremoth, it seems highly likely to be the case.
Let me present a very convincing piece of evidence for this theory from a point of view people may not have considered. It’s a little something I’d like to call the Mordremoth leitmotif, composed by Maclaine Diemer, which can be heard in the soundtracks for Living World seasons 1 and 2. A leitmotif is a term in music theory which basically means a recoccurring theme representing an idea, mood, place, object or person (for example, the Imperial March from Star Wars films is a leitmotif which represents Darth Vader and the Empire as a whole).
The music track that was playing during our adventures within the Tower of Nightmares in S1 was the first canonical appearance of the Mordremoth leitmotif in GW2 story (to my knowledge, anyway). The distinctive and sinister four-note theme can be heard around 0:15 into that track and is occasionally joined by Scarlet’s leitmotif which plays alongside it (e.g. around 1:18 into the same track). These two themes playing in unison signifies a connection between the two characters, and I would even dare say that Scarlet’s leitmotif is based around the general Mordremoth motif (after all, the Scarlet Briar persona wasn’t born until Ceara accidentally opened herself to Mordremoth in Omadd’s machine). Of course at the time we didn’t yet know this threatening, mostly ambient theme would end up representing Mordremoth. We are given even more hints of this connection when we face Scarlet in the Battle on the Breachmaker track and hear some of the chords and notes of the Mordremoth leitmotif being played by the brass underneath Scarlet’s leitmotif which drives the theme forward, signifying that Scarlet has become little more than a mad puppet and minion of the dragon by now.
The connection between the Tower of Nightmares and Mordremoth became apparent in the story by the time we saw the final cinematic of S1 that would set up S2. As Scarlet dies and her drill hits the leyline under LA and redirects it, a very familiar leitmotif starts playing from 0:22 onward in that cinematic as we follow the leyline into the Heart of Maguuma and to the very dragon that leyline is now feeding with magic.
If that wasn’t enough, we hear the same leitmotif again in S2, giving us even more proof of the connection between Mordremoth, Mordrem, Scarlet, the Tower of Nightmares and thus also the affected Toxic Alliance. The Mordrem track actually shares certain chords with the Mordremoth leitmotif underneath it as well as some of that leitmotif’s melodic progressions, revealing the sinister master behind these invading minions.
Not only that, but by the time we confront the Shadow of the Dragon and its thrilling battle music start playing, the Mordremoth leitmotif returns yet again (first appearing at 0:10 in a somewhat evolved form and later appears throughout the track in various guises). This time we hear the Mordremoth leitmotif in its most glorious form as the Shadow, being the Elder Dragon’s lieutenant, heralds the rise of its master Mordremoth as the greatest threat to the existence of Tyria and its free races.
All of Diemer’s musical foreshadowing and storytelling, in addition to the other pieces of evidence Konig presented above, are all the proof I need to say that the Toxic Alliance were slowly falling under Mordremoth’s corruptive power, with the Toxic Hybrid being an experimental Mordremized krait. If we want to look at how Mordremoth might affect other races than just sylvari, perhaps we should start looking closer at the Toxic Hybrid, its rapid “evolution” and also its quotes to figure out what sort of horrors might await us once we take the fight to Mordremoth’s turf.
(edited by Kossage.9072)
We’ve been given hints and some statements of what Scarlet was after. While some of it only showed up in-game via her journal entries etc, a more in-depth look is offered in the short story What Scarlet Saw:
Disappointment soured Ceara’s fascination. Was this it, then? Were the lives of all sylvari so easily encapsulated? Birth, travel, experience, death, all played out under the dictates and philosophies of the godlike entity that created them?
She refused to accept that. Everything she had learned said that no system, no matter how complex, can perpetuate itself indefinitely. Those that did not evolve inevitably failed.
[…]
“So much makes sense now. The Pale Tree, the Nightmare Court, Caithe and Faolain…it’s all part of a grand design.
“But I see the flaws in that design. My people don’t have to take what we’re given, or be what we were “born to be.” No people do. We can change the rules…well, I can. And I’m going to.”
[…]
“Now I have to put that knowledge to use. An insurmountable challenge is rising, and my people have been called to meet it. We are compelled by our creator to do so.
“But I reject that call. I reject the notion that that I must choose the Dream or be lost to Nightmare. The forces that push us this way or that can be redirected. They can be set against one another to the detriment of both, and now I know how.”
“I have a great deal of work ahead of me. I don’t know what the world will be when I’m through, but I will very much enjoy finding out. Empires will fall, continents will burn, and when the conflagration is over, I’ll be there to put my stamp on whatever new world this one becomes.” [my emphases]
We were told during Season 1 that Scarlet’s tone change by the time of the Twisted Marionette release had story significance. Given the information we learned later on, what happened was that Scarlet initially intended to set Mordremoth and the Pale Tree against one another to free herself from both of their yoke as well as shape the world to her liking, hence all the alliances to combine techs and magic and inventing/stealing/building all those different things to achieve this goal.
However, Mordremoth was subtly manipulating Scarlet to awaken it. Although Scarlet fought against Mordy’s whispers at first with varying levels of success, she ultimately succumbed to its siren song shortly after the Tower of Nightmares (we hear her tonal change in the cinematic that played there) which helped spread Mordy’s influence. Her more sinister tone in later chapters was her having succumbed to the dragon, hence her final lines aboard the Breachmaker about Tyria bowing to a new master.
That doesn’t mean Scarlet’s story was fully resolved, however:
1) We’ve yet to learn what happened to her Brisban batch of steam creatures (as the only steam creatures we ever meet in Brisban come from an asura gate linked to the Shiverpeaks during a dynamic event and from a fractal version of an “alternate” Tyria where the asura PC had become evil and tried to invade the real Tyria with his/her steam creature army in one of the asura Personal Story missions).
2) We don’t truly know the full extent of Mai Trin’s mission to the Mists at the behest of Scarlet, and Mai has yet to make an appearance since we last saw her in Edge of the Mists.
3) Scarlet left an enigmatic message to Caithe on the back of the Spinal Blade Back Blueprint: “Caithe, someday you’ll see, Tyria needs me.” Was this her roundabout, twisted way of referring to Mordremoth who did view itself as the ideal world of harmony (as we learned in HoT), or was this message written before Scarlet fully fell to Mordremoth and might have referenced her original plan to rid Tyria of both Mordy and the Pale Tree for the sylvari race’s supposed benefit?
Whether any of these three points will be explored in the future is anyone’s guess; if anything, I’d expect Mai Trin to be the most likely of the bunch if even that. Other than those points, it seems Scarlet’s story is finished now that Mordremoth’s threat is gone unless Mai’s mission to the Mists will come into play later and reveal whether Scarlet had some bigger contingency plan than we’ve been aware of and if that plan might help us in our battle against the remaining Elder Dragons. I’d love it if we encountered a “good/neutral” steam creature colony north of Brisban led by a Steam Brain which has some of Scarlet’s hidden knowledge stored in its databanks, and we could convince these steam creatures to fight with us against the dragons (as they, due to the way they’ve been built, would be resistant to dragon corruption and are also quite intelligent due to their evolving programming), thus fulfilling Scarlet’s prophetic words to Caithe in a roundabout way.
(edited by Kossage.9072)