Watching the xfire player numbers, even it is only a smaller part of the overall player number but this is how statistics are made, the game is on a decline and people did quit probably.
With the amount of condition removals I wonder if some classes are not getting shut down too much. I was playing condition staff elementalist in spvp, using Eruption and Shockwave to see how player react, if they have removal and how often and quickly conditions get removed. There were several pvp rounds in a row where the skills were used for point defence from a save position, but there was almost a nonstop condition removal going on with always multiple opponents affected by conditions. I could have go afk and watch how melees cut through their opponents.
I have the opinion that condition removal are important but there are maybe too many options for it, not only from abilities but also from traits.
Actually, when i compare the numbers to my ping it isnt that bad. But wonder if this is the average ping for most players. Sometimes I noticed ping spikes with 300+ms, but on average I get 230 ms/ping.
I guess that should have been listed on the box I wouldn’t have bought the game.
I don’t know why ANET has such a high opinion of Melee’s in this game but the Caster classes are just pathetic in comparsion.
My Warrior and Theif can deal more dmg than any other class in the game by far, no single two classes can touch the dmg I can put out with one of these classes.
My Warrior has 2400 armor and 21k HP’s eviscerate’s for 6k crits on high toughness targets with no protection up and 9k crits with killshot. Don’t even get me started with his auto atk dmg.
My Theif can pretty much make someone disappear in 3 sec’s only has 15k HP crap Armor BUT WHO CARES I run faster than everyone and can stealth constantly and sit in stealth with shadow refuge.
So I should play a Mesmer to:
A. Do less dmg than my theif
B. Run slower than my theif
C. Have less escapes than my theif
So I should play a Elementalist to:
A. Bunker Build worse than a guardian
B. Heal worse than a guardian
C. Do less dmg than my warrior or theif and die faster
D. You got confused with Priest and Mage
So I should play a Necro to:
A. Have alot of pets that do less dmg than a rangers
B. Condition dmg worse than a theif
C. Pretend I actually get life back with abilities and burst dmg set this high
Not a single role any of them fill that wouldn’t be done better by a Theif , Warrior or Guardian.
well thief’s damage is a burst if you can prevent him from hitting you – which is very easy with blocking or dodging- he is as good as dead meanwhile thief doesnt have any team utility
an elementalist can run faster than you, heal allies, deals quite good aoe, has nice cc
a mesmer has 5 sec for all nearby allies, can run as good as you, deals good aoe and nice single target
a necro has best aoe damage, best condition damage
and all of them can be much better tank than thief
not every class is same somethings maybe unbalanced but not as much as you think
Did you ever play your thief with high toughness and defence values, a different build but what the game offers as one of the two main options for each class: offensive or defensive ?
Maybe you will encounter well known enemies with a completely different impact, which you would not notice only staying with certain builds or combat option.
Too many players are only playing certain combat options i.e. defensive or offensive or only certain builds. But all of them, well for sure the main option defensive or offensive, actually are a part of the class balance and people should try them. There are some around who dont and are satisfied with their character and the game but miss some important points.
“So I should play a Mesmer to:
A. Do less dmg than my theif
B. Run slower than my theif
C. Have less escapes than my theif”
Did you ever play your thief with high toughness/defence ? Playing the class not only as a glass cannon since this is what the game offers and counts as class balance ?
You will probably encounter opponents which feel different playing a different thief and maybe you will think different.
Anyway OP all of this is assuming you’re doing tpvp because spvp is crap:
You didn’t mention who controls the point, but I will assume the enemy does. Also you didn’t mention how many from your team are there.. it sounds like you’re assaulting a node with 5 enemies on it (wtf?) alone (wtf?), but whatever.
These things can get kinda complicated, but it’s not all about “how do i beat that” but oftentimes it’s the big picture you need to think about.
If:
the enemy controls the point
the enemy has substantial defense there
the enemy controls more nodes than you
then just don’t go there. It’s a waste of time. The enemy will just rack up points.
If the node is neutral then try to keep it that way or even cap it if you are not overwhelmed. If you control the node then stay on it so they don’t neutralize it.
If you are actually supposed to be fighting there, then your next question is who to target:
Target their damage. Thieves, mesmers, etc. Anything that is glassy needs to be priority #1. Call the target and have your teammates focus fire.
Since you are expirienced with Tpvp, what setup use the most successfull teams currently.
Thank you
“Hey Moxrox, thanks for the reply but not sure if you understood the question I want to know which class to prioritise/target when facing multiple enemies, not the best setup for a team.”
I understand and Iam sure you got the answer from one of the other players here. I just posted something which was a question by myself.
Guardian Bunker Build and Mesmer Shutter/Illusion Build in multiple numbers, maybe a single Thief with probably high dmg build is enough. Or maybe a whole team with Guardians or Mesmers.
Now Iam curios what the Tpvp folks say to this setup out of 16 different options to choose from (not builds but offensive or defensive direction)
The problem is that a none glass cannon thief is a lot harder to play in melee and honestly is a part of the fail balance of classes ingame. When have you seen thiefs with high toughness ingame…. try one and see how you do. The high damage glass cannon builds (not talking about bleed builds) are wide spread because you have a quick success, otherwise the classs struggles with incomming damage even with high toughness build.
Iam playing sometimes a thief with high toughness and try to use daze more often. For that I need to use cloak and dagger and stay behind the opponent.
I encounter very often that cloak & dagger doesnt work at all, I dont get invisible but my initiative points get removed. And, even I stand behind the opponent the daze effect from my auto hits from the sword shows no effect at all…
Are these bugs, would not be surprised since we know how buggy this game is, or is this just due to server latency issues ?
Played a thief and met a mesmer…..either the thief is a glass cannon build which is sometimes too strong or it is a more balanced thief build with more toughness and they struggle.
I see some thiefs who actually get visible after Iam dead…they attack and are still stealthed. All you see sometimes are damage numbers if they are hurt, but the character stays in stealth.
I tried P/D, the tank + condition aswell a crit/power build, against some classes it is nice. But you get 3 shotted by backstab thiefs…(well the usual bs pvp) http://img6.imagebanana.com/img/0k8uwmvd/gw113.jpg
..with the power build and honestly the tank condition build does for me low dmg and certain classes did outdmg me.
I think most of the players have problems when facing thief’s initial BS burst unprepared. That burst will eat most (or all) of their HP if the thiefs are specced glass cannons. Given S/D and D/D skills I’m sure than if you can see the thief coming then we are one of the best professions to control him and recover from his damage.
I did post screenshots what incomming dmg can happen even if you are a bunker/tank specced elementalist. Burst is not 19k, but still questionable.(thief and warrior examples on page1+2)
If you are playing an ele tank build, it is one of the most fun build in the whole game. I had 1v1 or 1v2 with really great pvp. Fights which lasted really long, where you have to use everything you have, until a high dps class did down you in seconds even with your high defence values.
You need time to down your opponent, time which you dont have in many situations.
Did you play a dmg build aswell already, condition or/and power ? If you do, compare the surviveability with other glass cannon builds and you will notice probably something.
You say your build rocks…..in comparison to what ?
Iam sure you all are only talking about Guardians or are you talking about other classes aswell ? I have different expiriences here with surviveability, some tanks can be downed quiete fast with high incomming dmg even wiht high toughness and armor ratings.
It is not my expirience that you are unkillable with with every tank/bunker build of the prvided classes. Thats a part of the balance problem.
You are free to add screenshots with usefull informations. Meaningless is if you moan only and if you think eveyone shares your opinion. Lets get back to the toppic please. Thank you.
I have more examples about incomming damage from Warriors vs Elementalist and high toughness, btw the incomming dmg in the first example with just a normal swing of the greatsword against 2200 toughness is impressive aswell with up to 2k+ hits…..new example:
Elementalist Tank
Toughness: 2015
Armor: 2985
Health: 13305
Incomming damage from Warrior, in this case different oponnents:
As you can see the armor and toughness values are very high, HP is a bit low but this doesnt matter in this case since we will talk about incomming dmg against a tank build and the toppic is about toughness/armor values vs burst. At 50% health the used runes for this build trigger additional protection for some seconds by the way. In addition the traits at 50% health trigger Armor of Earth and at 25% another Shield, called Arcane Shield. ……didnt at all to avoid a fast death.
@The original name of the thread was “Your game is broken: toughness vs burst” and changed by admin/mod. Actually this is not just a comparison with toughness vs burst, this thread is about that the games pvp mechanic has issues.
Tournaments and balanced ? Good teams are using certain builds and only certain classes. They organize and setup to build a strong team. Iam sorry, but I dont wear rose colored glasses. I dont argue like the thread starter since this is too simple, but there are really issues in this game.
I got hit with 2300 toughness by a warrior and he did dish out 9k dmg with just one skill which causes a double strike. I have screenshots from this situation and I will add it probably in the thread “your game is broken: toughness vs burst”.
Are you sure, the difference between 1900 toughness and 2200 toughness is not that much. 1900 is rather a tank already.
Sorry to randomly hop on this but… can you explain this, please? Do you have any proof?
Because as far as I know, there’s a considerable difference within additions of 100 toughness per chance. Something like, 5% damage reduction If I’m not mistaken.
All In all, please explain.
What proof do you want, play classes with 1900 toughness and with 2200 and compare the incomming damage.
And this actually describes the problem of other glass cannon classes besides thief
A thief can dish out higher dmg in short time and has better survival. With this build you are dead before you can say a word if you get targeted by suprise without much defence options. The defence options are for certain glass cannon builds very limited, thats why you see a lot more thieves because they can do it better.
You mention aswell condition dmg, another point to give some more thoughts about in comparison to other glass cannon builds.
“1900 toughness is squish squish squish….
I can’t tell if this post is serious”
Are you sure, the difference between 1900 toughness and 2200 toughness is not that much. 1900 is rather a tank already.
Go play an elementalist or condition dmg build with 1k toughness, this is squishy without the survival options like a glass cannon thief. And this is one of the bigger issues currently when it comes to balance.
But the issues in this game isnt solely about the thief, take my example and play other glass cannon builds. Take the elementalist or other glass cannon classes i.e. with condition dmg and you see that the classes struggle to survive.
Yeah the common…“you have to dodge”. Do this when you get rooted and stunned, you need already a second to press one button.
Some should maybe play a glass cannon elementalist with daggers or condition builds to see actually how “balanced” the class is if you compare it to the fotm builds or classes.
Just watch some Tpvp and what classes actully are currently played, thats another point which shows the current “balanced” metagame.
I made the expirience that good defence is around 2000 Toughness, if you invest more into toughness the defence doesnt raise significant. But for certain classes, especially with condition builds the class balance is not given currently when you see the incomming damage, guardians exclusive they are strong.
The AAA title is lost with the current questionable pvp class balance anyway.
But, first such a downed state is actually a cute idea for the first moment. Its something new and refreshing.
The problem I see is that certain classes have downed abilities which are just too powerfull. Take for example the situation where someone can actually revive but the other person not….why was this implemented.
The only sport I recommand for healthy persons happens outside, dont waste your short lifetime with too much consume of virtual pixels. You are getting fat if this is your main hobby =)
I doubt that you even tried all classes and builds in this game over a while and collecting data.
Iam testing currently a build with 2404 toughness and 3700 armor around and hammer + mace/shield, will check back with some screenshots. The only difference here is that the class has significant more HP and is one of the weakest classes I played so far. Crazy weak but high armor and toughness and annoying abilites.
Highest incomming dmg so far with 2404 toughness and 3615 armor as a tank W.:
~ 4.6k eviscerate
~ 3k heartseeker
~ 3k Wildstrike combo (1k+/- per hit )
~ 2.2 Mind Wrack x XX
~ 1.2 100B per hit
The class should not play a role since it is about armor and toughness values, this is not a class discussion. But I will tell you the secret, it is an Elmentalist in this case. And there is not much difference to a tank warrior when it comes to toughness and armor values i.e. 3487 armor and 2215 toughness has my warrior if I use him as a tank.
With the carrion Amulet you get around 1560 toughness with an additional ability . It is an alternative of course if , yeah but the dmg ouput is higher aswell and your survival is way lower in general fights. But this doesnt change the toughness vs burst issues… the current pvp doesnt feel right.
The question is when is the most effective moment mixing vitality and toughness. You can see this when you build classes with very high HP but your amount of toughness is low, the enemy will go through you like butter.
Power wins vs Toughness because the damage formula double-dips into power.
Let’s say an attack deals a base 100 damage and has a 0.2 Power ratio.
Let’s also say, for argument’s sake, that a character has a base of 1000 Power and 1000 Thoughness.
The damage of the attack executed by an average character against another average character is given by the formula:
(skill damage + Power ratio) * (Power/Thoughness), and so the attack deals 300 damage.
Now let’s let both characters choose a stat and increase it by 500. The attacker chooses Power, the defender chooses Thoughness. Now, in an ideal case, the opposing attributes should cancel each other out, however…
(100 + 300) * (1500/1500) = 400
The damage has increased.
And that’s just one of the two problems. Damage scales by multiplying three attributes: Power (twice), Precision and Critical Damage. Survivability scales by multiplying two attributes: Toughness and Vitality.
I could go on, but I think I’ve made my point.
I see your point, but when you have to increase Vitality you loose toughness again and aswell your dmg output, or you loose almost all of the dmg output. It depends of the amulet. Something is miss calculated here for certain builds.
Moxrox, my guess is that the stats lowered to your base stats (gear armor included) because none of your traits were counted when dead.
It’s how they were before you died that matters, not after.
Were they lower than too?
I see, well the stats were normal back in the mist and are normal before fights. Will check this in the next rounds. I thought this is some ability mechanic I didnt notice. Thank you.
Which ability or what is the reason that my toughness, my armor values and my HP did lower ? Thank you. Back in the mist my defence and HP values are back to normal, or before the fight.
Knyx, these are only excuses, which cover the issues ingame currently.
Ottigan, it is about high defensive values against incomming dmg. That the subject here nothing else. If you raise the HP your defensive values goes down and the incomming dmg will increase.
Toughness: 2279
Armor: 3199
Condition dmg: 1239
Health Points: 11805
A thief takes almost 10k from life in just 3 hits……. And when I watch my dmg I just giggle with the slow ticking conditions. If you want higher HP for your character you loose toughness and die almost in the same speed but with higher dmg ouput from your opponents.
Fix your game, this is 2012 and not 2001 where companies were more new to find out an acceptable class balance…the standard of this game is rather beta, very disappointed and this is only one example out of others.
Of course there are less players, because the game has loads of issues especially in pvp…the balance is just a joke when you dont play the regular FOTM builds or classes.
Besides that GW2 is disappointing for a lot of players, either the repeating events in pve or the lack of actually GUILD wars.
People run around with different builds. The dummies only start with the base armor.
I dont understand, I did create the same build and compared the ARCANE SKILL descriptions and their dmg datas….means, what you read if you go over the skill with your mouse. Not doing dmg on targets like a dummy, there is a difference for me like I wrote. So is there a difference between instant characters and leveled characters in the dmg descriptions of skills, means can they achieve higher dps with certain items ?
