whether it is 30, 60, 90 or 100 percent, chill regardless is going to proc before the cooldown is over.
What an odd thing to say. Get it?
EDIT:
But then I did the numbers. It turns out, that after 5 attacks already the proc chance of the sigil is 88%.
gambler’s fallacy!? After 5 attacks, the proc chance of the sigil is exactly 30%.
Don’t use terms when you don’t know what they mean. The chance on proccing it on the next attack is 30%. The chance is proccing it at least once over five attacks is 88% (assuming his math is right)
Brainless condispam specs need addressing before this.
How is condition spam more “brainless” than power builds?
1.) Condition specs allow to go full tank and still do a kitten ton of damage. Ala Dire.
The only soldier spec that allows for this is when running sigil of intelligence, and you’re given three attacks to do mostly all of your damage. Plus you’re using a sigil slot for it. Condition builds give the best of both worlds without any sacrifice. Also, condition damage is not reduced by toughness, so you can eat a tank much faster than a power build ever could.
2.) Condition specs are mostly aoe and can spam aoe circls, leaving your opponent to squirm as he tries to cleanse the half a dozen or more conditions you applied to him. Even if they’re not aoe, once they’re applied they will work their magic, unlike a power build where you hit them once and the damage is done. Miss a few of your bursty skills on a power build and you’re already dead.
It’s why condition builds run rampant in Spvp, they are simply better than power builds. No amount of condition cleanse will save you to the ridiculous condition output some classes have.
Berserkers stance is the difference between warriors being viable and warriors being a quick snack for engi’s and necros. Unless you plan on running one of those yolo zerker builds, but a guardian or thief are mostly the only ones that pull that off well.
You can’t go full tank, you still need crit. And the tankiest Necro build (for example) is MM, which is a power build. There absolutely is a sacrifice; conditions do damage over time and can be removed before they’re allowed to do damage. They might be overtuned right now, but saying there’s no downside to stacking bleeds or burn over instant damage is ridiculous.
Plenty of power builds are AoE as well. Using Necros as an example again, a typical power build might have you take Well of Suffering and Well of Corruption, which are both AoE.
Regardless, nothing in your post actually answered my question. What makes them more “brainless”? People keep using that word to describe condition builds when they involve just as much button mashing and ability spamming as most power builds do.
Berserker Stance might be required to stop warriors from being a necro snack, but the flip side is that it basically makes necros a warrior snack. Do you think that is good balance?
I noticed that most necro’s don’t seem to dodge a lot, something I’d learned on thief is sooo important. But when you see the amount of punishment you can take while playing a bunker necro, it’s unsurprizing that most of them don’t think it nessesary. A lot of hate is directed towards necro’s and seeing how fast I could rip people apart with it, it’s unsurprizing if still undue. Unless they were a class that hard-countered me, I could sort of just lay back and melt them. No, I don’t think people playing this have no skill, it requires good timing to beat warriors and you’re a baws if you pull it off, but this one is so much more forgiving than the squishier classes.
What a stupid statement. Do you expect Necros to dodge a lot, with no access to Vigor and limited access to energy sigils?
It seems like you’re only talking about MM, since you’re not going to “lay back and melt” anyone with any of the other builds.
Oh, I understand that even the gravest of imbalances are usually in the area of tilting combat by 10% at best, and usually less (since most are decided by circumstances like initiative, surprise and CDs).
But given those constraints, Mesmers are rarely a good choice for your team. Sure, you won’t feel bad playing as a Mesmer. But if you want to get organized, you need to know the limitations a Mesmer imposes on your strategy, unless it is to hunt the highwaymen in WvW. Because that is something we do better than anyone else. The same can ofc work in sPvP, especially hotjoin, as players often play highwayman-like specs or try them out.
I don’t really see a higher skill cap, though. Sorry. Your point would be that at a normal level of play, we actually perform better. That wouldn’t be indicative of an easier class, the average player can perform really well with it compared to other players.
Rather, I think this is what happens:
At low levels of play, players genuinely get confused by our “trickery”. By what is supposed to be our class mechanic. This makes Mesmers very strong, or rather, the enemy really weak because they waste so much time and skills on clones, on the wrong moments or get confused by things like Moa Morph having different abilities.
At medium levels of play, players have learned to see through our illusions, and have improved with their classes. As a result of Mesmers being quite difficult to play well (compared to say, Guardians), Mesmers slightly fall behind at this point.
At highest levels of play, Mesmers are still behind by that small margin of their class design being useless. However at this level this actually starts to be a real problem as the teams and groups will optimize and cut every corner.
That’s odd, because Mesmers found their way onto almost every team in the ToL, including both of the teams that made it into the finals.
Being a Necro actually isn’t that great. No stability means that for every person you fear off the edge there’s another that’s going to blast your kitten in the same direction.
Honestly.. I wish staff would just mute/ban people like you. Stop clogging forums with toxic threads like these.
Just another thread crying about how you get beat by someone and that automatically makes them OP. Learn to play your class and stop moaning about everyone elses.
They were funny at first, now they are just tiring.
How is this thread “toxic”? It’s just bad; stop using buzzwords.
All those things are nice, but lets wait and see what Anet is cooking because supposedly they are cooking a new system that will make a lot of the things you listed a thing of the past.
Where did you hear this?
Because I really can’t trust their “wait and see what we’re working on!” lines. 8 months down the road, nothing to show for it most of the time.
I love how you are act like you have a choice in the matter.
Really? Grow up. He just asked where you got your information.
Are you kidding me? You’re talking about one small aspect of a giant WORLD of playability. If PvP is the ONLY thing you enjoy, then just wait until a patch comes out to fix the current issues. Better yet, suck it up, play a few tournaments, and have some fun with it. Arenanet is currently working on huge PvP updates, so just hang tight, because the game’s been out for a month.
Just leave if you think the game sucks; nothing’s stopping you. I despise these types of posts.
You mean you despise the type of posts that discuss an idea you disagree with? Grow up.
A patch will not fix the current issues, and I’m hesitant to say that even a dozen patches would. They’re “currently working on” (ambiguous) content that should have been in the game at release; content that we have no knowledge of and could be released next month or next year.
Keep encouraging players to leave though. Because I will, and so will a lot of other people, and this game will wither and die until something radical happens. MMOs are about investment and progression, and no one is going to come back to a game that they’ve invested nothing in.
a player that did not kill the trebuchet guy, did not destroy the trebuchet
Yea, that’s not even close to being true.
Your situation would make your team a man down since you have more people at your treb trying to deal with a single attacker. Its not a thing. Necros aren’t bad on the treb, but for none of the reasons that you mentioned.
What? I don’t know what you’re talking about with spectral walk. Its not a good skill, they’ll just kill the treb if you jump off the edge. And they’re not a “man down” since its a 1v1.
League of Legends and Dota both have one game mode are both highly prolific esports worth millions of dollars of prize money.
There was a post I saw on the LoL forums by one of the devs that I wish I could dig up regarding PvP in GW1.
Basically, he pointed out that the biggest problem with GW1 PvP was that there were too many game modes to encourage players to find the full depth of any single one; therefore, no game mode ever reached its full potential. While I don’t have enough GW1 PvP experience to validate that, I still think it’s a valid concern that Anet will have to consider before adding too many modes.
Starcraft has dozens and maps and that’s a highly prolific E-Sport too! Yea, see how stupid that argument is? Besides, LoL has 4 game modes (SR, TT, Dominion, ARAM/Proving Grounds).
Its not about E-Sports or balance. Conquest is boring; one game mode is boring; sPvP, right now, is boring
Because the premise is that Necros will be better than other professions at the highest skill level, which is a terrible way to balance a game and isn’t true right now anyways.
And Jon needs to stop saying stupid things like that because he’s just inflating Necro players’ egos. That’s why you see so many posts now:
I PLAY NECRO SO WELL ITS THE HARDEST PROFESSION EVERYONE SAYS ITS BAD BUT MY TOURNEY TEAM 2X MESMER 2X GUARDIAN 1X NECRO WINS ALL THE TIME TRY MY SICK BUILD 30 CURSES 20/20 SOMEWHERE ELSE SCEPTER/DAGGER + STAFF
There is going to be a huge blog post in the coming days explaining future plans for spvp. Emoqt, Arenanet is known for giving out extremely great pvp content and we are not forgotten. They only want to ensure that everything is perfect when it’s all implemented. It’s the beginning of the game, and hardly a month into release, right now I suggest practicing with your team and your class/es.
My team went 4 days without losing, not because we are exceptional but the competition is lacking. It took 4 days to find a team that even made the game challenging, We are NOT learning from this in anyway shape or form.
Hey at least your downed 1 doesn’t base 69 damage and your downed 3 isn’t the most useless skill in the game.
Eles have it pretty bad but Necros really aren’t too far behind. Downed skill balance is all over the place atm. But hey, they have to fix server issues first. Then bugs, then PvE issues, then implement competitive PvP (slowly of course). So we’ll probably see some class balance around December
Too many players go straight single damage in this game which really does give Mesmer’s the edge
Yea, it would be stupid to spec to be able to fight every other profession; people should build specifically to fight mesmers. Players are so dumb right?
All three of these features are planned, yes. It is our tradition to not discuss in detail any feature until we have it fully implemented enough that we can talk about it with confidence, as we don’t want to promise a feature to work one way and then end up having it work a different way. We’ll save details on all of those until they are ready to be talked about.
Chaplan will be putting out a blog post in the next few days that summarizes where we stand with PvP right now, and where we’re headed. From there we’ll continue to update as other Esports features come online.
Our focus right now is making sure absolutely all of the potential issues/bugs with base tournaments and rewards are 100% cleaned up before we introduce any form of more serious competition. We’re also trying to make sure we’ve given enough time for the base strategies to develop, and for any skills/builds that are out of balance are identified. Once we’re totally convinced things are in a solid state, you’ll start seeing a roll out of major PvP esports features and we’ll get this thing going like crazy. Take this opportunity now to learn your classes, learn your builds, lockdown strategies for your teams and get ready! Once we start rolling out the esports features, it’ll build up rapidly from there.
You released a game pandering to PvP players with absolutely no competitive PvP content. Four maps (all 3-point conquest), no ranking system, no real tournaments system, no hub for competitive PvP, etc… And now you won’t even give us a timetable as to when we’re actually going to see what we paid money for.
For sPvP players right now there’s literally nothing to do. Grinding ranks is basically impossible after 30 since the glory requirement is more than all the other ranks put together. Paid tourneys give crap rewards and aren’t competitive in the slightest. Hot Join was boring a week after release.
Do whatever you want, but people aren’t going to wait. They’ll flock to MoP or League or whatever once the hype dies down, and you won’t get those players back when you decide to add content and balance the game a couple months down the line. Your game was built off hype, the only reason its popular beyond GW1 fans is because people are so disillusioned with basically every MMO since WoW.
If the enemy is downed, you haven’t outplayed them. Period. You haven’t won and you haven’t killed them. That is a kitten FACT in this game. If you got someone down but they rallied and defeated you, you got outplayed. Complaining about the existence of downed mode won’t change the fact that you lost. Suck it up and get better.
What? There’s very, very little room to outplay anyone when you’re downed. The abilities are about as basic and simple as they come. Its more likely that you just got outnumbered or lost a downed fight because they have stronger downed abilities than you.
I support the mechanic but winning a downed fight has absolutely nothing to do with player skill.
Some of these are suggestions, some of them are just problem identification.
1) Observer mode so we can have more informed discussions about balancing specific classes.
2) Downed States on Thief, Mesmer, Warrior, and Guardian need to be nerfed.
3) Thief, Mesmer, and Guardian have a significant advantage over all other classes. No other class fills a role these three don’t already do better / none of the roles filled are more important than simply having an extra one of these 3 classes.
4) The majority of Ranger pet abilities need to be instant, or closer to. The animations for pets right now are poor.
5) Elementalists have a few bugs I’ve written about in other threads, additionally I suggest weapons be either damage or condition damage themed, rather than having this change with attunements.
6) The amulet/jewel simpilization has significantly reduced the complexity and variety of build options for each class. I appreciate the simplicity it has brought to the ragdoll UI, but it has come at too high a cost.
NOTE: If you fix 1, 2, and 6… you could probably wait a month or two and see where things go before fixing the others. I think part of what put Mesmer/Thief/Guardian so far ahead of the pack is the fact that they work well with existing amulet options and have extremly powerful downed states.
I agree on Thief and Mesmer down states being overtuned (i.e., annoying), but what is the issue you see with Guardian and Warrior? I don’t really have any issues with either of their downed states UNLESS you let the Warrior get back up, but then that’s your own fault for not finishing him/her off quicker.
Ranger pets are also incredibly wonky and will sometimes just stand there and do NOTHING at all even when you’re attacking/being attacked. Kind of frustrating.
A Guardian will get rezzed 100% of the time unless you have on demand stability.
Warriors just rez themselves. Vengeance is technically fine but the trait to rally them needs to go. Even if you don’t consider them overpowered, they’re still worlds better than Ele/Necro downed state
You guys would have a much easier time accepting the downed mechanic if you could accept that depleting someone’s health =/= killing them.
The only thing wrong with downed state is the blatant imbalance of some profession downed skills. Other than that, its an interesting and fresh mechanic that keeps the game from wandering too close to other MMOs. I’ve made several fun and viable rez/stomp builds on different professions that focus purely on downed players.
Although I will agree that it makes 1v2’s effectively impossible against decent players.
There should be, at the very least, personal stats for damage and healing that show up at the bottom. I’d advocate comparative stats too if they could think of creative categories for support (total boon duration, combo fields generated, etc…)
“Score” is supposed to be an amalgamation of your stats and map presence but its pretty flawed. Having top score is usually a sign of good performance, but you can also win the game for your team and be well towards the bottom.
I have a feeling the 5 minute wait is to promote the mind game of changing builds and such before the match starts. So not sure if they’d lower time since they seem to feel 5 minutes is good for switching out characters/builds.
More prominent ready button would be nice though. Not gonna be able to do much about trolls. They’ll always figure something out to annoy you.
You shouldn’t be able to switch professions or builds anyways. Swapping out traits and changing is weapons is fine, but there should be strategy in building your team around being able to succeed at all three maps. The fact that everyone just switches to their guard/mesmer/engi for kyhlo is indicative of bad game design.
The only time you need in the lobby is enough time for people to step away from their computer for a second, and enough time to analyze the enemy team and build a strategy.
The point of having more jewelry is that you’d be able to actually customize your stats more.
As it stands now your stats are from three places: Base, Traits, Neck. You could say runes but they are pretty small.
The neck is the highest chunk of stats your character will get. If they were to break up the amount of points the neck currently gives out, lets say 750 in 3 stats for sake of arguement, to 3 pieces instead of one, this would allow you to mix and match stats over 3 pieces instead of having to heavily invest in 3 specific stats because thats just how the neck is.
But how many builds need that much of stat spread? Very, very few, and they’re probably not optimal or viable either. There’s enough stat combinations for pretty much any build for any profession.
Since there’s no stats like hit or defense that you need to cap, there’s basically no reason for more than one stack stick. Having more jewelry would just overcomplicate things for newer players and give me more unnecessary things to swap out when I want to change my build
Five minutes is ridiculous. Two minutes at most with the option of being able to ready. Its enough time to go to the bathroom, get a drink, or play with your build between games
Some of these are suggestions, some of them are just problem identification.
1) Observer mode so we can have more informed discussions about balancing specific classes.
2) Downed States on Thief, Mesmer, Warrior, and Guardian need to be nerfed.
3) Thief, Mesmer, and Guardian have a significant advantage over all other classes. No other class fills a role these three don’t already do better / none of the roles filled are more important than simply having an extra one of these 3 classes.
4) The majority of Ranger pet abilities need to be instant, or closer to. The animations for pets right now are poor.
5) Elementalists have a few bugs I’ve written about in other threads, additionally I suggest weapons be either damage or condition damage themed, rather than having this change with attunements.
6) The amulet/jewel simpilization has significantly reduced the complexity and variety of build options for each class. I appreciate the simplicity it has brought to the ragdoll UI, but it has come at too high a cost.
NOTE: If you fix 1, 2, and 6… you could probably wait a month or two and see where things go before fixing the others. I think part of what put Mesmer/Thief/Guardian so far ahead of the pack is the fact that they work well with existing amulet options and have extremly powerful downed states.
I don’t get the problem with the amulet/jewel system, although I agree with your other points. What’s the point of having rings, necklaces, bracelets whatever when you’re just going to buy them all to facilitate the same build with the same stats?
I think fixing bugs and clarifying tooltips is a really high priority as well. As a necro, we have a bunch of utility skills that sometimes just don’t work (Corrupt Boon, Spectral Grasp, Necrotic Transversal etc…). And so many of our traits just say “Steals health when you…” or “Increases the damage of…”. Steals how much health? Increases the damage by how much?
Also, the stats needs to either be explained in game or on the wiki or something. Its really vague how much damage toughness actually reduces, or how much power actually increases your damage. Healing power and Condition damage are even more ambiguous, I’m pretty sure there are hidden coefficients depending on the heal or condition but the game certainly doesn’t tell you them.
I don’t think the issue is that there are too many ranks or that they take too long to grind. The issue is that rewards only really come in increments of 10, since by the time you hit the next rank you’ll have tens of thousands of glory and will be able to craft all the new items immediately.
Being rewarded with the lowest-tiered set ever 5 or so would make things more bearable
How does bringing friends in to roflstomp a team make SPvP less pointless? Oh right, you need an advantage and since you can’t be a level 80 fully traited player stomping the low levels who get brought up to 80 like in WvW you’re looking for another advantage to make it “fun” for you.
Mists pvp is about having fun instead of gaining advantages, if this doesn’t appeal to you, stick to stomping low levels in WvW.
What a useless, self-righteous post. MMOs are about progressing your character/account. If people are logging on and not getting anywhere after a play session, they’re going to get bored and quit. Its a simple concept.
Right now there is no ranking system, no paid tournaments, and the glory gap after Wolf is absurd to the point that there’s no realistic way to grind ranks anymore. Why should I log on and play? 3-point 8v8 conquest was fun for the first couple weeks, but its boring and stale already. Tournaments are fun, but its not easy to get five people on all the time, and anyone invested in tPvP has already exhausted all the free tourney rewards.
It doesn’t take that long to build up the death shroud meter
Actually it does.
It means you can’t 1v1 any decent player early in the game. In a tourney setting, you can’t send your necro alone to waterfall/quarry, or to the treb in kyhlo.
Team should easily be discerned without any aid from a user interface.
exp.
Tf2
Unreal Tournament
Counter-Strike
Day of Defeat
etc.
/thread
Why on earth would you use CS as an example of easily discernible teams? T and CT look almost identical from any respectable distance and friendly fire is off 99% of the time for a reason.
Red names = enemy and green names = ally is more than enough to tell teams apart. I don’t know why they give us dye in PvP and the only use for it is standing around the mists
No one is pointing out the fact that the Mesmer downed 1 does the most damage out of every profession AND applies confusion? Or the fact that their phantasm can easily do upwards of 3-4k?
Seriously, the teleport is the only mesmer downed skill that isn’t overpowered.
What a useless post. So you’re saying Necro is fine at PvP because you can “hold your own” (i.e. not die for 15 seconds) against bad players? You cannot destroy any class 1v1. A good Mesmer, Thief, or Engi will stomp you.
Necro spec’d for survivability and condition is unkillable in 1v1. Good necros can also hold 1v3 fights for a very long time.
Neither of those statements are even close to being true.
What a useless post. So you’re saying Necro is fine at PvP because you can “hold your own” (i.e. not die for 15 seconds) against bad players? You cannot destroy any class 1v1. A good Mesmer, Thief, or Engi will stomp you.
Necro spec’d for survivability and condition is unkillable in 1v1. Good necros can also hold 1v3 fights for a very long time.
Neither of those statements are even close to being true.
What a useless post. So you’re saying Necro is fine at PvP because you can “hold your own” (i.e. not die for 15 seconds) against bad players? You cannot destroy any class 1v1. A good Mesmer, Thief, or Engi will stomp you.
Necro spec’d for survivability and condition is unkillable in 1v1. Good necros can also hold 1v3 fights for a very long time.
Neither of those statements are even close to being true.
I play a necro and I still have a long ways to go till I can even say I’ve “mastered” the class. With that said however, I can destroy any class 1v1 as well as hold my own 1v2 or even 1v3 if the other players are newer to PvP or arent experienced with their profession.
The Necro is far from weak in PvP and can be built for a variety of playstyles. The class just requires multiple skill use as well as good positioning.
What a useless post. So you’re saying Necro is fine at PvP because you can “hold your own” (i.e. not die for 15 seconds) against bad players? You cannot destroy any class 1v1. A good Mesmer, Thief, or Engi will stomp you.
Every profession requires multiple skill use and good positioning, and Necros aren’t particularly difficult to play. Like Ele’s, we only have one or two viable builds right now, which are well-support and condition management.
Paid Tourneys need to happen soon. The wait needs to be changed too, 5 minutes is WAY too generous.
The only reason people would get bored is because the glory difference between ranks starts getting ridiculous. It takes more glory to go from Wolf to Tiger as it does to do the previous 30 ranks. Couple that with the fact that you get no tangible reward until the next rank and you’ve got a pretty boring reward system. Playing dress-up is fun, getting cool looking gear is fun, what’s not fun is having week or month long increments of 10 before you get rewarded. There’s 5 or 6 sets for each rank, why not give some of them at the halfway mark?
Just a small math example of an axe warrior with 2500 attack power:
Lets assume an autoattack occures every second. (I know thats off, but it just to show the concept of Quickness).
It does 1000 damage per hit.
That would be 1000 dps.
That would be 0.4 damage per attack power.
He no adds 5 stacks of might (capped at 25), adding another 5*35 power so his attack power is now 2675.
He will now deal 1070 dmg.
It is now 1070 dps, which is a 7% increase.
The second warrior uses the same setup but uses quickness instead.
His autoattack now occures every 0.5s instead of every second, but still deals 1000 damage.
So 2 attacks per second for 1000 damage, or 2000 dps, 100% more.
Now lets see how many stacks of might that is. He basically doubled his attack power for auto attacks, so 2500 power. Might gives 35 power, so 2500/35 = 71.43 stacks of might. Does any wonder why there isn’t a skill which gives you over 70 stacks of might?
Yet those 70 stacks of might could be dispelled…
You failed to provide the proper damage formula, which makes your proof irrelevant. Your premises are not based on how the game actually works.
Let me illustrate why your proof means nothing by changing some numbers.
1. Assume that the warrior has 2500 power.
2. Assume that an autoattack occurs every second.
3. It does 50 damage per hit. (Where did your 1000 come from? Thin air?)
4. That would be 0.02 damage per attack power. (BY THE WAY, THIS IS NOT HOW DAMAGE WORKS IN THIS GAME)
5. He now adds 5 stacks of might (capped at 25), adding another 5*35 power so his attack power is now 2675.
6. He will now deal 50,000 dmg. (I pulled this number out of thin air because power is NOT attack damage in this game.)
7. That is a 1000x damage multiplier.
8. Conclusion: Might is far more powerful than quickness, which is only a 2x damage multiplier.
My proof is as valid as yours, because it is based on the same premises and the numbers that you pulled out of thin air are also pulled out of thin air.
Points to take away:
1. Power is NOT attack damage.
2. The “Attack” stat in the character sheet is an estimation formula ArenaNet uses to give you a nice number, and NOT your actual attack damage. (If you think about it, this is obvious when you realize that the Attack number is Power + Weapon Damage + Condition Damage, but condition damage does not affect autoattacks at all!)
3. You failed to consider armor.
4. You also did not consider AD ratios on the skills themselves.
5. Do some research on what the damage formula actually is, and come away a better theorycrafter!
edit: You may ask me, “but why does armor need to be considered when power is attack damage and quickness is attack speed? that’s pretty dumb!” Hint: Power is not attack damage and is actually tied into armor in the damage model. If you are comparing might (which increases power), that affects damage dependent on armor. However, attack speed does not have anything to do with armor. That is why they are two completely different things.
And also, the damage formula may not be currently available online in easy-to-read form. You may have to damage testing in Heart of the Mists to find out what it is, if you are truly interested in figuring out how the game is balanced.
This might actually be the dumbest post I’ve ever read
The simple answer is to have a queue system like every game ever instead of a server browser. Just take someone from the queue and throw them into a low-pop game.
Penalizing leavers is draconian and will do nothing to solve the problem. If they’re not going to implement a queue, then just take the lowest score player (or person who has been in the game for the least amount of time) and swap them.
Its pretty broken. The “indication” for someone having quickness is basically nonexistent, so there’s no realistic way to prepare yourself for the burst unless its preceded by a more obvious attack.
Also the tradeoff for some of the quickness skills is almost irrelevant (namely quickening zephyr). Not to mention the quickness traits or the sigil.
